The Channel 4 documentary titled My Foetus will controversially show a woman who is four weeks pregnant having a 'vacuum pump' abortion. Other previously banned footage and images will also be shown. The programme is due to be broadcast on the 20 April.


It's thought that the film will spark an interesting debate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/3600621.stm

Ugh, networks will do anything for ratings.... Although I doubt there'll be many people watching it....I'd rather spend an hour having root canal work done than watch something like that.

Is NOTHING private anymore ? Has this been made by Pro-Life/anti-abortionists per chance ? I can not imagine many people who have experienced an abortion being too interested in watching this. Maybe I am wrong.

I dont see the problem with it. If you dont want to see it, change the channel or switch the telly off. Nobodys forcing anyone to watch it.

It's not as simple as that though. People will watch it and people will get offended/upset. Its just the way it is.

tough life really is like that

exactly. People will watch it, but they will be watching it of their own free will. If it offends or upsets them, theyve only got themselves to blame for watching it in the first place. Its not as if theyre being made to watch it against their will.

Perhaps the pro abortionists should be made to watch it and see the true horror of what they support.

Can we take it you won't be giving the keynote speech at this year's "A Woman's Right To Choose" debate then Mo?

Mojo I am an athiest so my beliefs are not based on religion. I can see certain circumstances when an abortion would be acceptable but in the main it is in my mind wrong.

I know there will be people come on here to tell me that most women do not take the decision to have an abortion lightly and that there is an enormous mental trauma associated with it and again I am sure they are right but for many it is an alternative to contraception. These women shouldn't be offered abortion but sterilisation. There that should get some of you on your high horses.

That should put the cat firmly among the PC pigeons!

I agree with much of what you say, but I'm glad you included the "certain circumstances when an abortion would be acceptable" rider.

In School my R.E/R.S teacher showed us an abortion on video. It was disgusting.

I don't agree with it because it is the murder of an unborn human being. Sick.

Conflicts do arise though in rape cases. It's a harsh harsh situation.

i think its awful that people can do that, have abortions. if i fell pregnant i would always keep it no matter what the circumstances-take responsibility for my own actions but i do understand in some circumstances why people do it. i think the program looks interesting, people dont know enough about it and how it affects the women that have them.
mimi

Anything that increases knowledge and understanding for the general public is good with me.

I understand that people may be offended by these images, but I fully believe that in the right context, they should definitely be shown.


Susie, my body, my choice

Originally posted by SusieP
Anything that increases knowledge and understanding for the general public is good with me.

I understand that people may be offended by these images, but I fully believe that in the right context, they should definitely be shown.


Susie, my body, my choice


My, my, my. What about the aborted child's choice?

Your choice came when you should have been deciding which contraception to use.

Wow very powerful images indeed.
Did anyone see this programme?

I did and the 23 week old baby picture was graphic and to me it was very much like a baby (not a feotus).
The 3D scan footage too would be enough to make people think twice about aborting an unborn feotus as you can visualy see it move, suck it's thumb n everything.

I agree with mo that the choice should be when you decided which contraceptive to use. However sometimes you can take all the contraceptives in the world and still get caught. I have friends that have been in that situtation, although they kept the baby.

I personally think that if the baby is healthy, free from abnormalities (like it wont be born disabled in any way) then I'd personally opt to keep the baby. I don't think it should be just as easy to have an abortion. However if the baby will be un loved and un wanted then I dunno. What about adoption. Someone somewhere will love it, so there are always other alternatives.

It's a complicated issue where both sides feel strongly with their own beliefs.

I watched this programme and although I found it upsetting I am still "pro choice".

I understand the point about being more careful and not getting pregnant but nothing is 100% and girls do still get caught.

I don't believe that any woman enters into an abortion without having done a great deal of soul searching and agonising over their decision. It is not an easy option as some people choose to believe.

Women that have abortions have to live with the knowledge of it for the rest of their lives, they shouldn't have guilt and shame heaped upon them by people who have no right to judge them.

And i do believe this was on last night. Did anyone watch it? Have anything to say about it?

I forgot, got caught up in quiz madness, so missed it. Though if anyone has taped it i would be interested in watching it. Please PM me if you can lend me a copy.

GOD IT WAS AWFULL. What gets me mad is people would do this for nothing more than a selfish easy way out. Its sick and unfair. Ok if the baby has problems thats understanderble. Abortions are just the same as killing a defenceless child its sad!!!

I found parts of the film quite disturbing.

Not just the images, but more the idea that a person could decide to abort an unborn child as easily as they would, for instance, choose a new pair of shoes. As the lady said, she was on the phone to the abortion clinic minutes after she found she was pregnant.

I know of people who've miscarried and have taken several months or years to get over the trauma; yet here we had women who'd go in for a termination, and have the unborn child hoovered out without any feelings for the child at all - other than 'it is in the best interests of the child' :loopy:

Now that did make my blood run cold.

Originally posted by fuzbuz
GOD IT WAS AWFULL. What gets me mad is people would do this for nothing more than a selfish easy way out. Its sick and unfair. Ok if the baby has problems thats understanderble. Abortions are just the same as killing a defenceless child its sad!!!

Did you all hear of the story recently, where two expectant mothers were given each others pregnancy results for the presence of Downs Syndrome or something other?

The mother with the healthy child aborts, thinking her child will be born with Downs (which isn't life threatening anyway); when the mixup is revealed, the other mother aborts her unborn child too.

Did any of the mothers sue the NHS? I don't know; I turned the page at that point.

Well spoken Abdul.
A fact thats being braught up was "what if i didnt want my child. What if i didnt bond or love it"
All i can say is there's millions of people all over who cannot have children and have so much love to give so adoption especially a baby would be a quick process and the child would be happy and loved is it so hard. I kinda know the feelings of a child who was nearly aborted as my mum had me at 16 and was considering abortion and its so hurtfull. I know its only a feotus but its a baby. A real life baby

No i didnt hear that Abdul . Thats really bad. But then again it isnt taken seriously enough. If you hoovered your chils brain out of its head killing it it would be murder but get you can hoover it out of the womb and poke at it in a pyrex dish

sad ***** eeeeueuuuuurrrrggrggghhhhhh angry

Yep fuzbuz; the sight of the poor little blighter being rinsed out over the sink made me feel very queasy.

I know!!!!!! infact the law of abortion should be to put the mothers down . That way we all win!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by fuzbuz
I know!!!!!! infact the law of abortion should be to put the mothers down . That way we all win!!!!!!!!!!

I thought the increased risk of breast cancer following an abortion would have taken care of that!

thats sounds about right its only fair a life for a life eh !!!!

Originally posted by fuzbuz
thats sounds about right its only fair a life for a life eh !!!!

A note to all the Islamophobes out there:

Those were her words, not mine!

Abortion is not really a choice; the phrase "pro choice" is wrong it really isn't much of a choice at all.
And to those people on here who have been judging the women...it takes a man to make a baby too.
How come when it comes to abortion and single mothers it is always the woman who is subjected to judgement even though she is the one taking responsiblity, the man can always remain anonymous and not have to deal with any of it.

Two people very close to me have had abortions, they really felt it was the only thing they could do at the time.
The emotional after effects on both of them have been terrible and they are fully aware it is something they will have to live with.

Who was the programme aimed at?
I couldn't work out who it would be targeted at.

....................................

Originally posted by elf
Abortion is not really a choice; the phrase "pro choice" is wrong it really isn't much of a choice at all.
And to those people on here who have been judging the women...it takes a man to make a baby too.

Two people very close to me have had abortions, they really felt it was the only thing they could do at the time.
The emotional after effects on both of them have been terrible and they are fully aware it is something they will have to live with.


Thanks for your comments, elf. I don't want to sound too patronising, because I know nothing of the circumstances of your friends, but was any sort of contraception available to them?

Did they have any friends or a support group they could turn to for assistance?

Originally posted by sarah d
A lot of the anti-abortion comments are coming from men who have never had to make such a choice and never will.

and Catholics??

Originally posted by sarah d
I missed the programme but have been interested in the comments that have been made.A lot of the anti-abortion comments are coming from men who have never had to make such a choice and never will.I am pro-choice but believe the cut off point shouldn't be as late as 24 weeks and i also don't like it when women use it as an alternative to contraception.

The 24 week cut off can be quite a difficult one to judge. What would you reduce it to 20 or 22 weeks or even earlier.
If you have an amniocentisis it is not normally done until 16 weeks and usually takes about 2 weeks for a result (though in some clinics (usually private ones in London) it can take 4 weeks) but it can be longer and if it fails because there are not enough of the foetuses cells to grow for analysis. You repeat the test and again another 2 weeks at least. Now the lady now 22 weeks pregnant is told she is carrying a baby with a chromosomal abnormality that will affect it for the rest of its life, which may be a very short life. And she cannot have an abortion. Do you think that is right? (Actually i do believe she can have one because they do make exceptions in cases like this they just make sure that the baby will not be born alive before inducement i believe)
The 24 week cut off point is there because a foetus is not viable (unable to survive) before that time. If it was viable before that then i think it would be reduced.

I cant believe i flicked over onto this last night whilst eating my supper!! UGH! with a fork full of chips and ketchup halfway into my mouth i was staring at a woman with all kinds of worldy implements hanging out of her and another one sucking stuff out with a tube!!

What is wrong with Channel 4.

Originally posted by Lestat

What is wrong with Channel 4.

it's crap. went downhill when they dropped the NFL coverage.

Originally posted by Lestat
I cant believe i flicked over onto this last night whilst eating my supper!! UGH! with a fork full of chips and ketchup halfway into my mouth i was staring at a woman with all kinds of worldy implements hanging out of her and another one sucking stuff out with a tube!!

What is wrong with Channel 4.

How inconvienient it must have been to be confronted with the real world while you were eating your chips! :)

Surely you've seen much more horrible sights watching those Michael Jackson videos of yours? :)

(both comments were jokes BTW)

How anyone can call that pinkish streak of cells a baby ill never know. If i got pregnant id have those cells whipped out straight away cos ive thought about it in advance. If i had a malignant growth id have it whipped out - its not something i want growing inside me and using up my bodily resources.
I do all i can to not get pregnant but if one managed to slip through the net i wouldnt have any qualms about it.
What kind of life would a baby have with me as a mother i wouldnt know whet the hell i was doing, id be in thousands of pounds debt, id be unhappy. Wouldnt have it adopted cos all the adopted kids these days seem to be hunting down their parents all the time and it seems to get easier and easier.
Dont let morals get in the way of science cos at the end of the day when you want medical treatment youll come a-running and if you think where we are today in terms of that was done based on extreme morality then youve got another thing coming.

if they werent allowed wed be over run with people - over run with unwanted kids brought up by an unwilling mother. Causing even more trouble no doubt.

Kittykat, I hope you're being sarcastic. Your post sends a shiver down my spine.

That 'pinkish streak of cells' you refer is growing. If it grows, it is a living creature, correct?

You work in the NHS, don't you? Are you the one who writes DNR on old peoples health records?

If you feel that strongly about having an unwanted child, then you could do worse than follow these tips:

1) use contraception. Failing that:

2) get sterilised. Failing that:

3) get him to get the snip: Failing that:

4) Keep your knickers on, and your legs closed. Failing that:

5) Get him to keep his trousers on and leave the snake in his pants.

All this from a supposed animal lover :roll:

Kittykat - aren't you training to be a nurse!?!
Firstly, of course the cells are a person, if you do not understand that then you are going to be useless supporting anyone who has to go through an abortion.

Secondly, what do you say to pregnant women?
"oh its only a bunch of cells, bit like a tumour"

If you are being serious your attitude is very worrying if you are serious about being a nurse.

I dont think dads get braught in to the picture as much because its not their final choice. If my boyfriend ever told me to get rid of my child i know where id tell him to go. Their is no law that he could make me. so really the woman should take this on board when all the ***** is aimed at them.
I cant believe how common abortions are and its sad if you didnt want some one there would u just kill them? Its sick and should be band.

....................................

unwanted pregnancy, HUH why dont people think about that whilst they are on there back after all condom and pill packets do have a 99% mark on!!!!!! nothink is really 100% even people who have been steralised or partner has snip still get preg it happened to my mates mum.

Its like a smoker saying i do every thing i can to avoid cancer isnt it!!!!!

Originally posted by fuzbuz
I dont think dads get braught in to the picture as much because its not their final choice. If my boyfriend ever told me to get rid of my child i know where id tell him to go. Their is no law that he could make me. so really the woman should take this on board when all the ***** is aimed at them.

You can't put all the blame on the mother, fuzbuz. After all, it takes two to make a baby. See my tips 1, 3 and 5 above ;)

You're right about the final choice belonging to the mother. If the father doesn't want the baby, but the mother does, she can have the baby, and the father must pay maintenance.

If the father wants the baby, but the mother doesn't, she can have it terminated. And the father can't do anything about it.

I understand what ur saying abdul and true it does take 2 but people cant go around saying oh because he doesnt care then i cant give a **** either. Id make double the effort if my bloke didnt want it rather than kill it!!!

Originally posted by kittykat
How anyone can call that pinkish streak of cells a baby ill never know. If i got pregnant id have those cells whipped out straight away cos ive thought about it in advance. If i had a malignant growth id have it whipped out - its not something i want growing inside me and using up my bodily resources.
another thing coming.



I can't believe what I have just read. You liken the beginnings of human life to a malignant tumour-now that is sick

Originally posted by Abdul
Kittykat, I hope you're being sarcastic. Your post sends a shiver down my spine.

That 'pinkish streak of cells' you refer is growing. If it grows, it is a living creature, correct?

You work in the NHS, don't you? Are you the one who writes DNR on old peoples health records?

If you feel that strongly about having an unwanted child, then you could do worse than follow these tips:

1) use contraception. Failing that:

2) get sterilised. Failing that:

3) get him to get the snip: Failing that:

4) Keep your knickers on, and your legs closed. Failing that:

5) Get him to keep his trousers on and leave the snake in his pants.

All this from a supposed animal lover :roll:


Oh Abdul thats pure class :D You made me laugh after reading the previous very depressing post.

This is a very difficult post for me to write, so bear with me if I go off onto a weird tangent or just stop making sense.

Four or five years ago, I was at a party with some friends. Typical night, a little bit of drink, a laugh and a good chat. This was at a friend's house, to give you some idea of where we're at.

I'd been drinking, but I wasn't drunk. I was happy, enjoying myself, when I met a lad. I didn't know him, he wasn't strictly invited, but he'd turned up with someone else, although nobody knew who.

We went upstairs, to get some privacy. I didn't know what to expect, I was only 15, and still a virgin. We talked for a bit, and he wanted to know if I was interested in sex. Part of my brain, the part that's active when you're 15, screamed "YES!", but the rational part of my brain wanted me to wait for the right person. I told him no, and that maybe another time would be better. as in, if we had some dates or something first.

I won't go into detail here (I've already been reprimanded for talking about sex in too much detail), but he raped me on the floor while I cried my eyes out.

I was too scared that he'd kill me if I told anyone. I had no reason to doubt him, he'd already done something equally horrible to me. I didn't tell the police, or anyone.

After some bouts of morning sickness, I shyly bought a home pregnancy tester from the chemist. It confirmed my worst fears: I was pregnant. I hadn't been with anyone sexually since that night, I was too afraid to. It was his baby.

With the help of a friend, I did have a termination. I do wonder from time to time about the baby, he (always a he, don't ask me why) would be starting school this year. Walking, talking.

Do I regret it? Not at all. I am reminded of what happened that night every now and then - a song, a smell, a colour will bring it all back to me, but having him running around me all day would just be too much.

So Mo, and those so vehemently against abortion, please understand that while I did do it for selfish reasons, some things are just too painful to go through with.

Wow, that was therauputic

Susie

...................................

SusieP nobody at all could possibly blame you for what you did, you weren't selifish, you were extremely brave to go through something like that at such a young age.

Originally posted by SusieP
This is a very difficult post for me to write, so bear with me if I go off onto a weird tangent or just stop making sense.

Four or five years ago, I was at a party with some friends. Typical night, a little bit of drink, a laugh and a good chat. This was at a friend's house, to give you some idea of where we're at.

I'd been drinking, but I wasn't drunk. I was happy, enjoying myself, when I met a lad. I didn't know him, he wasn't strictly invited, but he'd turned up with someone else, although nobody knew who.

We went upstairs, to get some privacy. I didn't know what to expect, I was only 15, and still a virgin. We talked for a bit, and he wanted to know if I was interested in sex. Part of my brain, the part that's active when you're 15, screamed "YES!", but the rational part of my brain wanted me to wait for the right person. I told him no, and that maybe another time would be better. as in, if we had some dates or something first.

I won't go into detail here (I've already been reprimanded for talking about sex in too much detail), but he raped me on the floor while I cried my eyes out.

I was too scared that he'd kill me if I told anyone. I had no reason to doubt him, he'd already done something equally horrible to me. I didn't tell the police, or anyone.

After some bouts of morning sickness, I shyly bought a home pregnancy tester from the chemist. It confirmed my worst fears: I was pregnant. I hadn't been with anyone sexually since that night, I was too afraid to. It was his baby.

With the help of a friend, I did have a termination. I do wonder from time to time about the baby, he (always a he, don't ask me why) would be starting school this year. Walking, talking.

Do I regret it? Not at all. I am reminded of what happened that night every now and then - a song, a smell, a colour will bring it all back to me, but having him running around me all day would just be too much.

So Mo, and those so vehemently against abortion, please understand that while I did do it for selfish reasons, some things are just too painful to go through with.

Wow, that was therauputic

Susie


Suzie that is truly awful, but let me remind you of what I said in an earlier post ;


Mojo I am an athiest so my beliefs are not based on religion. I can see certain circumstances when an abortion would be acceptable but in the main it is in my mind wrong.



This is exactly the type of situation I referred to.

Im not being completely cold now but abortions should simply be for an emergency so to speak ie, any girl in susieP's situation or that the child will be seriously ill. In these cases i think even though it would still be a hard decision the reasons for an abortion far out weigh the reasons againsed. However some people get THEMSELVES in to a situation where they end up preggers and then throw away any responsibility and use our NHS (unless they go private) to do it!!!! it is so wrong and it does give abortions a bad name that makes people like SusieP suffer.

SusieP ur so brave xxxxxx

Originally posted by Abdul
Kittykat, I hope you're being sarcastic. Your post sends a shiver down my spine.

That 'pinkish streak of cells' you refer is growing. If it grows, it is a living creature, correct?

You work in the NHS, don't you? Are you the one who writes DNR on old peoples health records?

If you feel that strongly about having an unwanted child, then you could do worse than follow these tips:

1) use contraception. Failing that:

2) get sterilised. Failing that:

3) get him to get the snip: Failing that:

4) Keep your knickers on, and your legs closed. Failing that:

5) Get him to keep his trousers on and leave the snake in his pants.

All this from a supposed animal lover :roll:

As mentioned before, i do all i can to avoid it including 3 of the above. Your opinions, i feel, are marred by emotional morals. Im looking at it from an objective point of view. Its a pinkish streak of cells that are dividing rapidly because of the favourable conditions of the uterus. Are you saying i shouldnt kick my boyfriend in the balls cos id be damaging his sperm? After all that would be damaging something capable of growing into a baby (all be it with a bit of help from an ovum - something we women are pleased enough to shed every month. I understand people can get emotionally attached, its a human survival process for protection of the species and would support anyone going through the process (most people wouldnt be able to help thinking of what it might grow in to cos people are like that) Dont have a go at me just for not letting emotion over-ride my logic.
PS: since when was i a nurse? I wouldnt be a nurse for all the tea in china (and i bloody like tea)

I don't understand people who are against abortion. An underdeveloped fetus is not a human being by any stretch of the imagination. To state that it "will grow into one and shouldn't be denied the right" is thoughtless. A woman has an 'abortion' once a month - afterall, that egg could have developed into a human being had she not been so selfish and denied it the required fertile sperm. Same with selfish men who **** off - shame on you, some of those sperm could've developed into human life. Contraception such as the morning afterpill is also an 'abortion'. So long as the termination is performed withim the first few months of pregnancy I have no reservations.

I would just like to say i did see the programme
and thought it was very distressing every women has her choice and i respect that
i personally wouldnt have a termination but i did lose a baby half way though pregnacy at 20 weeks quite a few yrs ago but babies must feel the pain of how its carried out i would like to think it would be made pain free for both the mum and child especially after 3mths gestation
we have very hard decissions to make in life and we all have to do what we think is right, i feel sorry for both

I would like to ask .... How late in a pregnancy should an abortion be allowed? If the mum decides to have an abortion a couple of days before the foetus is due to be born is it ok because "she should have total control over her body"? Should "termination" be allowed a few days after birth, because the baby will still be relying on the mum and unable to survive on it's own?

Originally posted by t020
I don't understand people who are against abortion. An underdeveloped fetus is not a human being by any stretch of the imagination. To state that it "will grow into one and shouldn't be denied the right" is thoughtless.

Thanks for your comments t020. Although a foetus (the latin word for 'little one') is not a human being, it is alive, therefore shouldn't have that right taken away. If we applied your reasoning to other species, couldn't we say that an animal is not a fully developed human being, therefore can be killed for sport (I know you are against animal cruelty).


Originally posted by t020
A woman has an 'abortion' once a month - afterall, that egg could have developed into a human being had she not been so selfish and denied it the required fertile sperm.

The difference with that scenario is that the egg hasn't been fertilised, so life hasn't yet begun.


Originally posted by t020
So long as the termination is performed withim the first few months of pregnancy I have no reservations.

So at what age does the foetus gain a right not to be aborted based on the above? Would you choose a date from this
website (http://www.pregnancy-info.net/baby_development.html) and base your decisions on that? Week 2 looks interesting - when the gender of the baby is determined (I'm not boasting about my high Y chromosome level here - that's probably a faulty gene or something ;) )


Originally posted by t020
Same with selfish men who **** off - shame on you, some of those sperm could've developed into human life.

I think I know what you're getting at...sorry, it took a while to understand :D

Thanks for your comments t020. Although a foetus (the latin word for 'little one') is not a human being, it is alive, therefore shouldn't have that right taken away. If we applied your reasoning to other species, couldn't we say that an animal is not a fully developed human being, therefore can be killed for sport (I know you are against animal cruelty).

Trying again to be rational here, bear with me.

Killing an animal and killing a person are different. Only a fool would equate an animal's life to that of a human. A foetus is similar, in that while it is alive, it is not human, and should not be equated to a human.

I understand your point, Susie P, but I think it comes down to where you think human life begins - at conception, at birth, or somewhere in between.

No comments really that I can give that will express my respect for your courage and outrage at a fellow human being for putting you through such a traumatic ordeal Susie.

Of course no one would nor should judge you for making that choice.

I'll not dwell, that's all I'll say!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
No comments really that I can give that will express my respect for your courage and outrage at a fellow human being for putting you through such a traumatic ordeal Susie.

He's no human.

He's not even an animal - that would be disrespectful to animals.

This little bunch of pinkish cells incase we are all forgetting is once what we were inside our mums. Now just imagine if ur mum aborted you ok you wouldnt know any different as you would have been flushed but its a horrid thaught. If ur mum turned around and said in a conversation oh yes love you was almost aborterd that is the ultimate heart breaker and its really upsetting and makes you feel worthless!!! You cant just controll nature and do gods work in killing a baby that is totally dependant on its mummy INSIDE and outside the womb!!!!!!!!

Sorry Kittykat for assuming you were a nurse but on a previous posting about binge drinking you had said you were working in s hospital to complete your training, somewhere along the line I had taken this to mean you were training to be a nurse.
Still, surely working in a hospital you should have a bit more compassion as regards abortion shouldn't you?

Originally posted by fuzbuz
This little bunch of pinkish cells incase we are all forgetting is once what we were inside our mums. Now just imagine if ur mum aborted you ok you wouldnt know any different as you would have been flushed but its a horrid thaught. If ur mum turned around and said in a conversation oh yes love you was almost aborterd that is the ultimate heart breaker and its really upsetting and makes you feel worthless!!! You cant just controll nature and do gods work in killing a baby that is totally dependant on its mummy INSIDE and outside the womb!!!!!!!!

Yes we were all a bunch of cells inside our mums and if she had decided not to have you then you wouldn't know any different because you wouldn't have been here. You would not have a horrid thought.

Before the 24 week stage a baby is not viable anyway so it would not survive.

Sorry i may seem a bit clinical but having worked in a department where i had to deal with doing tests on human tissues (including aborted and miscarried feotuses) you have to deal with it somehow.

I have borrowed a copy of the video (thanks Abdul) and will watch it and reply later, because even though i have done this work i have never had an abortion or seen one done but i have wondered what is it like and what they actually do. I know it is a difficult decision for anyone to make, i don't know if i would be able to do it, at anytime and for their own personal reasons. But sometimes it has to be done for the welfare of all involved in the situation.

Kittykat, i do belive you work in the NHS and can see perfectly your point of view, maybe it comes from being within the medical/scientific area. (Maybe i am wrong)

Originally posted by Abdul
Did you all hear of the story recently, where two expectant mothers were given each others pregnancy results for the presence of Downs Syndrome or something other?

The mother with the healthy child aborts, thinking her child will be born with Downs (which isn't life threatening anyway); when the mixup is revealed, the other mother aborts her unborn child too.

Did any of the mothers sue the NHS? I don't know; I turned the page at that point.

Since when is downs syndrome a good reason for abortion? I only think abortion is the correct choice in four different situations
1) the mother is a rape victim
2) If the birth will be dangerous for the mother
3) if the mother is too young to give birth/properly care for the child.
4) if the child will go through extreme suffering if it is allowed to live.

Downs is not extreme suffring. I have babysat for a little girl with downs and she is beautiful, friendly, loving and inquisitive. There is no way that she has less right to live then any other child.

When I was pregnant and told the midwife I didn't want the test to see if my baby had downs I was treated like I was stupid.
What the **** is all that about?

here here. i would never have an abortion, unless there were extreme circumstances, the only time id question it was if i was raped. then i dont know. but disbabled or not i wouldnt, im disabled and im having a great time living, wouldnt want to take that from someone else.

I think its completely reasonable you didin't want the test. I wouldn't want to know. Otherwise you might end upwiewing him/her as a 'disabled kid' rather than properly bonding. Then again as I've never been pregnant this is only hypothetical...

Originally posted by mimicraze
im disabled and im having a great time living, wouldnt want to take that from someone else.

Exactly! its stupid to think that just becuase you have a disability your life wouldn't be worth living. Any mother that doesn't want a baby just becuase they are disabled should be forcibly sterelized.

Originally posted by mimicraze
here here. i would never have an abortion, unless there were extreme circumstances, the only time id question it was if i was raped. then i dont know. but disbabled or not i wouldnt, im disabled and im having a great time living, wouldnt want to take that from someone else.
Would it be to intrusive of me to ask which disability you have.
As I think to make a real judgement it would depend on severity of the disability (for me at least).

But what are you going to judge? If her life is worth living? Obviously if mimicraze is enjoying it then it is. I'm honestly not meaning to be rude but I don't understand why it matters.

LOL no thats not what I mean.
I mean is my missus (and we've discuss this) had a baby with complications such as say spinabifida (not sure if that's spelt correct) or some other what we'd call major disablement or brain damage then yes we think we'd opt for abortion.

However if your talking about downs, being blind, deaf or some other what I'd call 'mild' disability then we wouldn't.

So to a degree in our eyes it's a judgement call dependant on disability. I dont expect people to share our views. However it's not just for the good of us, it would be for the good of the 'feotus'.

hmm anything that caused a child extreme physical pain in my eyes is an abortion case. But brain damage unless so severe the person wouldn't even be properly aware they're alive, I think to be honest that is the parents choice. You do here these stories about people 'waking up' after like 27 years and stuff.

well what can i say. i have fibromyalgia. i was bedbound for a month, if that isnt sever i dont know what is. i couldnt feed myself, get out of bed. at the moment im healthy but sometimes im that bad that i cant do anything without someone to do it all for me. it can be so serious that can disable you so you cant walk. I usually have about 10migraines a day and have to sit in dark as extremely light sensitive, also have IBS that comes with it sometimes which means i cant eat alot of foods. i have to get wheelchair round meadowhall when wanna go shopping. its quite complicated but gonna leave it at that as its an abortion thread!!!
youll see on sunday that i look like im an ordinary person, nothing wrong with me.
mimi
x

I think that its inspiring when people have disabilities but still get on with their lives, and enjoy them as much, if not more than others.
Don't you think that aborting a baby for a 'major disability' is unfair as the majority of people would rather live than die even if they are severely disabled. I've said this before but I don't think anyone should be denied a life just becuase they are disabled.

Originally posted by elf
When I was pregnant and told the midwife I didn't want the test to see if my baby had downs I was treated like I was stupid.
What the **** is all that about?

Yep - yet they (the midwifes) seem all too keen to provide you with the abortion option should anything (God forbid) go wrong.

A parent doesnt know there are problems until after the child is born due to the brain been starved of oxegen during or after birth
until the child grows and developes no 1 can say how the damage affects the child mentally or physicaly
my daughter had servere cerebral palsy and needed 24hr care
i also have another daughter who has autism ,both these conditions can not be found in pregnancy so mums like me dont have to decide as fate decides
i was told that i was high risk of spina biffida with my child with autism but i still chose to keep even though i was giving 24hr care to my other daughter
her life was so prescious she died when she was 10yrs in her sleep that was 4yrs ago she had such a spark you could read her eyes she always laughed and was very happy
a pleasure to care for :-)

I saw the C4 programme and the early abortion did not look like anything in fact I could not see what we were supposed to see when it was pointed out. I believe in women's right to choose. It is too personal for anyone to say what is right or wrong.

I did see a BBC2 programme following medical students training to be doctors several years ago when they had to watch a late abortion and although we did not see specifics they explained what they were doing. They cut the baby up to get it out and I was horrified. However, until we have walked a mile in the other persons shoes who are we to judge. :)

I can see both sides of the argument, but I will always disagree with people who wish to impose their morality onto someone else. So I'm pro-choice. If you choose to say now (from an easy position) that you would never have an abortion, then fine. But don't tell anyone else that they should choose the same as you.

Originally posted by fuzbuz
If ur mum turned around and said in a conversation oh yes love you was almost aborterd that is the ultimate heart breaker and its really upsetting and makes you feel worthless!!!
I wouldn't be heartbroken. I'd understand my Mum was in a situation where she couldn't of brought a baby into the world and she considered taking steps to stop that. Its not heartbreaking.

Originally posted by fuzbuz
You cant just controll nature and do gods work in killing a baby that is totally dependant on its mummy INSIDE and outside the womb!!!!!!!!
God created men and women with minds so we could make our own minds up. Its a womans choice when she gives birth, not anyone elses.

Chris.

y shouldnt a woman have a right to choose?
people do fall pregnant by accident thats life and everyone should have a right to choose if to keep that baby or not.
nobody should tell people that they have to keep a baby.

there is alot of women and young girls out there who would not be able to cope with a child so they do the best thing for them and the baby.not everyone can cope with motherhood!
peoploe dont choose abortion lightly it can be very traumatic and it stays with them forever.

personally for me abortion was never a choice,i couldnt have done it.but i wouldnt ever say to anyone that it is wrong and you cant do it or that they should be ashamed that they have had an abortion.

i cannot believe some of the comments on this topic.

Originally posted by Chris_Sleeps
........ where she couldn't of brought a baby into the world ........


Not that I'm a pedant, but one of my pet hates is when people introduce a new verb into the English Language - namely, to "of". You don't "of" something, you "have" something. Therefore: "...where she couldn't HAVE brought a baby into the world....". Thank you! :D

Originally posted by t020
Not that I'm a pedant, but one of my pet hates is when people introduce a new verb into the English Language - namely, to "of". You don't "of" something, you "have" something. Therefore: "...where she couldn't HAVE brought a baby into the world....". Thank you! :D

Oooo you fibber! :D

I rather like the analogy that can be brought between new words and a new child though.

Originally posted by t020
Not that I'm a pedant, but one of my pet hates is when people introduce a new verb into the English Language - namely, to "of". You don't "of" something, you "have" something. Therefore: "...where she couldn't HAVE brought a baby into the world....". Thank you! :D

That particular grammatical tic is everywhere these days. You hear it a lot when footballers are being interviewed.

Another favourite of mine is "you've got another THING coming" instead of "another think".

This site is a goldmine for such errors: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors

Sorry, off topic, I know.

Originally posted by t020
Not that I'm a pedant...
One of my pet-hates is people highlighting typing and spelling mistakes. Oh hum.

Chris.

It's a grammatical error though. Basically the sentence is meaningless and the use of the word of in that way is just wrong.
Spelling mistakes and typo's are no problem, I make enough of them. But bad English, that should be corrected, otherwise how will people learn?