I always thought that 21 March was the first day Spring. Some people are saying that it is today, which is right?

I was told that spring was on the 21st of march has my daughter birthday is on the 20th and i remember the nurce saying to me that she was born the last day of winter a day befor the first day of spring.

I always beleived it was the 20th of March. But this article indicates there is some debate....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,172-2063389,00.html

Cheers

I e-mailed BBC Breakfast yesterday morning after hearing a March 1st reference. Sian Williams, getting giddy about St.David's Day, admitted later she was wrong. It isn't the first time I've heard the March 1 nonsense. After all, does summer begin on June 1, autumn September 1 and winter December 1? Of course they don't! The equinox's are on the 21st of the month with the exception of autumn, 23rd September.

The first day of spring is the 21st march, just as first day of summer is 21st June, Autumn is 21st September and winter is 21st December!!

I've always thought this 'first day of spring' debate was a bit odd; the seasons don't have fixed demarcations, so it's a bit like arguing about the exact cut-off point between dusk and darkness in late evening.

The vernal equinox occurs on or around March 21st. This year, it's March 20th.

I think Google were also a bit confused as to when the first day of sping was too.

http://www.google.co.uk/

I e-mailed BBC Breakfast yesterday morning after hearing a March 1st reference. Sian Williams, getting giddy about St.David's Day, admitted later she was wrong. It isn't the first time I've heard the March 1 nonsense. After all, does summer begin on June 1, autumn September 1 and winter December 1? Of course they don't! The equinox's are on the 21st of the month with the exception of autumn, 23rd September.

But surely it's pretty arbitrary anyway as to when the seasons actually start? I tend to think of winter as December, January and February, spring as March, April and May, summer as June, July and August, and autumn as September, October and November. In that respect, spring does begin on March 1st. It seems as sensible a way to do it as by the equinoxes.

:)

I've always thought this 'first day of spring' debate was a bit odd; the seasons don't have fixed demarcations, so it's a bit like arguing about the exact cut-off point between dusk and darkness in late evening.
I'm with you. I see no sense in being so precise when the seasons clearly aren't.

I'm with you. I see no sense in being so precise when the seasons clearly aren't.
Tell that to the astronomers.

I think Google were also a bit confused as to when the first day of sping was too.

http://www.google.co.uk/

I think the daffs are a nod to St David's day, which is today.

Spring happens when it happens, regardless of what day the calendar thinks it is.

Spring is getting earlier and shorter due to global climate change.

The vernal equinox is the "springtime equinox", it does not in itself mark the start of spring.

Spring is a reaction by biomass to its environment. ("it's warmer and lighter, best start growing/shagging/flowering now").

Tell that to the astronomers.

The astronomers? They've got nothing to do with it

...The astronomers? They've got nothing to do with it
Really? I imagine most astronomers have more than a passing familiarity with the spring equinox.

The vernal equinox occurs on or around March 21st. This year, it's March 20th.

I'm quite happy to go along with the above as my text shows the dates of 21st prefaced by a c (circa). One day and three weeks are two different things. The fact that BBC issued a correction tends to suggest that on prompting, they checked it out and were happy to state it isn't March 1.

As it isn't a leap year this year, the vernal equinox is March the 20th. It's worth pointing out also, that the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit and the precession of the northward equinox mean that the seasons are never equal in length. At the moment, in the northern hemisphere, spring lasts for 92.75 days, summer lasts for 93.5 days, autumn for about 90 days and winter for only 89.

Really? I imagine most astronomers have more than a passing familiarity with the spring equinox.

I'm sure they know about it, but Spring, and the Spring Equinox are different things.

One is the start of the seasonal growth phase, the other marks the precise point in time at which the increase in day length reaches its maximum.

Spring in the northern hemisphere is getting earlier as the temperatures rise. The vernal equinox stubbornly refuses to move, despite the best efforts of astronomers.

Spring has usually got well under way by the time of the Vernal Equinox, so it could hardly be called the "first day of spring".

I'm sure they know about it, but Spring, and the Spring Equinox are different things.

One is the start of the seasonal growth phase, the other marks the precise point in time at which the increase in day length reaches its maximum.

Spring in the northern hemisphere is getting earlier as the temperatures rise. The vernal equinox stubbornly refuses to move, despite the best efforts of astronomers.

Spring has usually got well under way by the time of the Vernal Equinox, so it could hardly be called the "first day of spring".
I class Spring as March, April and May. However, my calendar tells me that the first day of Spring this year is March 20th, the date of the vernal equinox.

The OP asked for a date. The date of the vernal equinox is most frequently quoted as the first day of Spring.

My birthday is 20th March and my daughters is 21st March. therefore, as far as we are concerned, I was born on the last day of Winter and she was born on the first day of Spring.
She was also my 21st Birthday present:)

the first day of spring in the calendar is always around March 20th one day either side & has been for the last 21 years. my daughter was born on said day & it has always formed part of our chatter abour birthday events etc.
the met office state March 1st as the start of the seasonal changes that normally are associated with Spring - ie flowers blooming etc,change in temps.

british summertime starts march 26th ish - or should i say the clocks change to BST.

My birthday is 20th March and my daughters is 21st March. therefore, as far as we are concerned, I was born on the last day of Winter and she was born on the first day of Spring.
She was also my 21st Birthday present:)

Well, the pattern usually follows the leap years, so that it's currently the start of spring on the 21st if we've had a 29th of Feb...this year, it will be the 20th. Due to the precession of the equinoxes (as the axis of Earth's rotation 'wobbles' the opposite way to that which it spins), later this century it will be the 19th (or 20th on a leap year).

First day of spring is today, 1 March (always has been, always will be!); Vernal equinox is 20/21 March; daylight saving or British Standard Time (BST) starts on the last Sunday in March; first day of summer is 1 June; summer solstice is 21 June; autumn starts 1 September; autumn equinox is 21 September; Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) starts on the last Sunday in October; winter starts on 1 December; and winter solstice is 21 December.

That should be about it:D

My copy of Philip's Essential Encyclopaedia says: "The seasons begin at the vernal (spring) and autumn equinoxes and the winter and summer solstices."
My earlier submission came from Chambers "Book of Facts". I can't believe that both are incorrect!

The weather man on calendar has just said that today is the 1st day of spring but some people think that it is the 21st.

My copy of Philip's Essential Encyclopaedia says: "The seasons begin at the vernal (spring) and autumn equinoxes and the winter and summer solstices."
My earlier submission came from Chambers "Book of Facts". I can't believe that both are incorrect!

Translating what are essentially astronomical events into seasons as we think of them, and as plants respond to them, is a tricky business. The equinoxes (20th March and 23rd September for 2006) mark points in the year when day and night are of equal length; these contrast with the solstices, the longest and shortest days (21st June, 22nd December in 2006), which, you would think logically, are called midsummer and midwinter, because in astronomical terms, they are. However, this is at odds with what we think of as seasons. The Earth is actually closer to the sun when it is winter in the northern hemisphere (when the north pole is facing away from the Sun), and so winter is shorter than the other seasons for us (due to Kepler's second law of planetary motion); by contrast, it is the longest season for the southern hemisphere.
It takes time for the atmosphere, seas and Earth's crust to adjust to the amount of solar radiation they receive. That's why there is a delay, and why the bulk of winter (or for that matter summer) takes place, as we experience it, after the respective solstice.
I don't think it's possible to state when a seasonal variation, as we experience it, happens with any degree of precision. However, I'd be much more inclined to believe Chairboy than Ann_x, based on the above argument. Talking astronomically though, the equinoxes and solstices are always smack bang in the middle of their seasons.

As an addendum to the above (as if I hadn't edited enough already), there is the old Yorkshire advice to: "Nivver cast yer clouts 'til May's out" - meaning to keep your clothes on 'til the end of May, implying (in contrast to what I have just said) that summer starts at the beginning of June. Either that or they all used to be pretty eager naturists round here.
Seriously, though: any keen gardener will know that early spring is very different from late spring, and that the other seasons, whenever they fall, don't have such clear-cut demarcations as to warrant pedantic arguments. There are more than 4 seasons, especially in Shef.

The definition put forth by "Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" seems to suggest both standpoints are valid.
"Spring - the season of young growth between winter and summer, which in the northern hemisphere is the months of March, April and May, or astronomically from 21 or 22 March to 21 or 22 June." I just prefer the latter.

I always think spring has come when I see buds on the trees in December would you believe, spring bulbs in January and spring lambs in the fields in February.

Pursuing the theme of Spring and the seasons rather than the equinox which is a date on the calendar when days and nights are of equal length, I found this.

People used to have two seasons in a year, they were HOT and COLD.
COLD started on November 1st and HOT on May 1st.

The other two significant dates were February 1st which was the start of the lambing season and August 1st which was the start of the harvest.

If you notice they are three months apart giving four seasons.

THE MONTHS
Dirty days hath September,
April, June and November,
All the rest have 31,
Without a single gleam of sun
(Excepting Frebuary’s 28
When it rains throughout
From morn till late.)
And if a month had 32
They’d be wet and dirty too.

From the Clarion Ramblers handbook.

Climatologists (especially ones that use computer models) define the seasons in the same way as Daley, i.e.

Winter = Dec/Jan/Feb
Spring = Mar/Apr/May
Summer = Jun/Jul/Aug
Autumn = Sep/Oct/Nov

Maybe that's why the weather man reckons that spring began yesterday.

Apart from giving the "astronomical" definitions (which do seem to go against most people's usage, what with "summer" beginning on Midsummer's Day), the OED says that "in popular use"

Winter = either Dec/Jan/Feb or Nov/Dec/Jan or just "the colder half of the year" (as in one of Grahame's posts)
Spring = Feb/Mar/Apr
Summer = "mid-May to mid-August", or just "the warmer half of the year"
Autumn = Aug/Sep/Oct

I.e. there isn't a single conventional definition of the seasons, and there's some freedom in how you use the names.

Personally I would go along with all of that and a little while ago I came up with this. I don’t know what you will think?

We relate summer to long daylight hours, so if the longest day is June 21st wouldn’t summer be six and a half weeks either side of that, and if December 21st is the shortest day, winter would be six and a half weeks either side of that? Spring and autumn fit neatly between.

This fits in well with the re-birth of new life in the spring with the early flowering bulbs and the farmer’s new year. But we need to remember the sea takes a long time to warm up, so if you allow a months time lag for that to happen it makes Captain Swing's table correct.

Winter = Dec/Jan/Feb
Spring = Mar/Apr/May
Summer = Jun/Jul/Aug
Autumn = Sep/Oct/Nov

With March the 1st being the first day of Spring. Hooray. :thumbsup:

21 march is the first day of spring and it is a new year of kurdish people (1/1/2706

21 march is the first day of spring and it is a new year of kurdish people (1/1/2706

No. The 21st of March is the Spring Equinox and seeing as it is a significant day in the calendar if has become associated with Spring. Especially as it has "spring" in the name to differentiate it from the autumn equinox.

The Kurdish New Year will be on the 21st because of the configuration of the planets, but when we talk about the first day of spring we are talking about the weather and that’s different.

No. The 21st of March is the Spring Equinox and seeing as it is a significant day in the calendar if has become associated with Spring. Especially as it has "spring" in the name to differentiate it from the autumn equinox.

The Kurdish New Year will be on the 21st because of the configuration of the planets, but when we talk about the first day of spring we are talking about the weather and that’s different.

I refer you to my earlier posts, in which I settled the matter.

I refer you to my earlier posts, in which I settled the matter.

You are right astrologically speaking

http://www.phys.uu.nl/~strous/AA/en/antwoorden/seizoenen.html#v466

But I thought we were talking about the weather?

Sorry if I was mistaken. :)

You are right astrologically speaking

http://www.phys.uu.nl/~strous/AA/en/antwoorden/seizoenen.html#v466

But I thought we were talking about the weather?

Sorry if I was mistaken. :)

I assume you mean astronomically - the only meteorolgical soothsayer I'm aware of is the groundhog. :)
I was slightly confused by your method of calculating the length of each season...you say that 'summer' is six and a half weeks either side of the solstice (the same for winter) - are you implying that spring and autumn are much shorter (if I were to write something really stupid I would write the following: as 4 times six and a half is 56; there are only 52 weeks in a year - I would probably write that in an attempt to look clever, although my utterly retarded mental arithmetic, hastened still further by my desire to make Grahame look stupid, would inevitably backfire and reveal me to be as thick as pigsh*t)...the astronomical 'winter', as I have said, is the shortest season in ther northern hemisphere, because Earth is at perihelion in this quadrant and Kepler's second law states that the amount of area swept out by an elliptical orbit is equal in any given time length.

Yes - this is about the weather. As I stated, most of summer occurs after the solstice (same for winter) as it takes time for the atmosphere, crust, and oceans to adjust the amount of incident solar radiation. By your analysis, you imply that the midsummer solstice should be the warmest day, when this is clearly not the case. Neither is the midwinter solstice in the middle of winter. I'm not necessarily saying that it is the start, either. I think 4 seasons are an oversimplification.

You have made the mistake of being overly precise regarding a system (the Earth's climate) that is far too complex to define with simple (and it has to be said, erroneous [edit: no Stef - you are wrong. Again]) maths, especially to then tell someone they are wrong in what date they believe to be the start of a season.

So I was talking about the weather...as I say, I pointed all this out in an earlier post.

You are right astrologically speaking

http://www.phys.uu.nl/~strous/AA/en/antwoorden/seizoenen.html#v466

But I thought we were talking about the weather?

Sorry if I was mistaken. :)
Talking about the seasons.

Some people think that seasons are astronomical events. The Astronomical events certainly affect the biosphere and are the cause of the temperature and light fluctuations that trigger changes in plants and animals.

But the changes in these organisms does not occur at a single point, and these changes also vary on local circumstances, so warm winters will bring spring forward. Pinpointing the "first day of spring" is a little futile in this context.

And I think we should leave astrologers out of this, as they are busy trying to fit an entirely new planet into their belief system.

I still think my groundhog joke was ace.

And I think we should leave astrologers out of this, as they are busy trying to fit an entirely new planet into their belief system.

Sorry did I say astrologers? I meant astronomers.

I assume you mean astronomically - the only meteorolgical soothsayer I'm aware of is the groundhog. :)
I was slightly confused by your method of calculating the length of each season...you say that 'summer' is six and a half weeks either side of the solstice (the same for winter) - are you implying that spring and autumn are much shorter (as 4 times six and a half is 56; there are only 52 weeks in a year)...

Hang on. 52 week in a year, right?
26 weeks in half a year?
13 weeks in a quarter?

So 6 1/2 weeks either side of March 21st gives 13 weeks?

P.S. 4 times six and a half is 26 not 56. You put a 5 where there should be a 2.

(Can I have some of what you are drinking please, it must be good stuff?)

You have made the mistake of being overly precise regarding a system (the Earth's climate) that is far too complex to define with simple (and it has to be said, erroneous) maths, especially to then tell someone they are wrong in what date they believe to be the start of a season.

So I was talking about the weather...as I say, I pointed all this out in an earlier post.

I know the weather varies and it can snow in summer? But it averages out and I know this because I used to keep charts when I was a kid. So the weather in one month is pretty much the same as in other years and we know this because of migrating birds. We can pretty well tell the date by them. For example the traditional date for Swallows to arrive in England is 23rd April (St George's Day). However, really keen birdwatchers should see their first arrivals up to two weeks earlier; if the spring is mild. So you are only talking about a two week variation. I agree any date can only be an approximate date, but if you are going to have one then you have to put a number down and as a rough guide the 1st of March isn’t bad for the first day of spring I don’t think? Especially as swallows are said to be a summer bird and they come at the end of April.

I never said I was working in base 10.

Oh dear...

As an addendum to the above (as if I hadn't edited enough already), there is the old Yorkshire advice to: "Nivver cast yer clouts 'til May's out" - meaning to keep your clothes on 'til the end of May, implying (in contrast to what I have just said) that summer starts at the beginning of June. Either that or they all used to be pretty eager naturists round here.


My gran always maintained that saying referred to May (Hawthorne) blossom :)

(as 4 times six and a half is 56; there are only 52 weeks in a year)
What the hell is that about? I'm retiring. I agree with Grahame now. Although it is meant to plummet to -12C tonight...