CC TV:
You are probably seen by 100+ cameras if you walk through medowhall alone.

Credit cards:
Each transaction you make, they know where you are or where you are going, i.e. bookings into a hotel, a football match, going abroad, etc.

Mobile phones.
I'm unsure of the techonology but I am convice that you might as well have GPS implanted on you.

Try texting, "The wether is nice today" to a friend mobile, it comes through almost immediately. Now try texting garbage like "xyatwjsa asd whgdya azdwqhask " and it will take longer, (half an hour according to a friend, but I do not have a mobile phone to check this one out).

Internet access
they still watching you... I wonder if garbage emails take longer to arrive at the destination.

Does it bother you with all this big brother stuff?

Should each human be electronically tagged, ie have a chip implanted into the skull at birth?

This way, murders, rapes, burglary, terror, etc... will be greatly reduced unless you want to get caught.

Originally posted by "John"

Does it bother you with all this big brother stuff?

Should each human be electronically tagged, ie have a chip implanted into the skull at birth?

It doesn't bother me. If anything, I feel more safe (as long as it isn't abused). I know that all those things are there to prove where I was and when... so if I'm ever accused of being somewhere / doing something that I wasn't, I know I can call upon these records to prove where I was... in theory!

I'm all for (inter)national ID cards... anyone else for / against these? In my eyes, you only wouldn't want one if you had something to hide.

I don't really have a problem with my movements being 'tracked' in this way as a previous poster said it actually makes you feel safer.
I would question the quality of alot of these cameras though. When you see some recordings the image is practically useless. Then there are the criminals who will operate knowing full well that they are being watched. Overall though I think they are a good idea.

Originally posted by "John"



Mobile phones.
I'm unsure of the techonology but I am convice that you might as well have GPS implanted on you.

Your mobile send a signal to a satellte tracking system every 30 seconds while it's switched on... ig the police want to trace you via your mobile... they can! (so long as it's switched on)!!!

I think everyone should be DNA tested at birth and this should be logged on a central computer and stored for at least 150 years per person.
You could use this to track illegal immigrants, sex offenders r any criminal leaving a DNA signature.
I wonder if some governement has started developing a technology that can simulate a clone froma DNA (you know like via a PC) so a computer cold make a digital image of what a particular criminal would look like... would make photo fits a thing of the past anyway... might have to suggest that on the FBI website! :P

I don't really care if anyone can find out what I'm doing. I hardly live the most exciting life anyway, I don't really see why anybody would give a toss what I'm up to.

I think ID cards are an excellent idea. I don't know what the problem is. It's actually really unbelievable that we can just go into a shop or bank and the cashier believes that we are who we say we are by checking our signature. Ridiculous! Anyone can forge a signature. I have lived in Spain for a couple of years now and it's obligatory to carry state ID cards. Nobody has the sensation of being "Big Brothered" and people are very rarely fined for not carrying ID. We British have a fear of change. And it's about time we got the Euro too.

Well, personally I agree with these sentiments...

They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. --Benjamin Franklin

A society that will trade a little order for a little freedom will lose both, and deserve neither. --Thomas Jefferson

I think everyone should be DNA tested at birth

I can see that in itself causing a shed load of problems for some people :heyhey:

I'm no too happy. Its not the information that bothers me it's the trust of the custodians of that information that does.
If such information was collected on me I should be able to be assured what purpose that information could be used for, who has access to it and most importantly that it is kept secure.

I for one am not convinced that all those points will be met adequately.

Originally posted by Sidla
I don't really care if anyone can find out what I'm doing. I hardly live the most exciting life anyway, I don't really see why anybody would give a toss what I'm up to.

Same here, anyone watching my daily life would soon get bored.

Unfortunately I think generally the criminal element is always one step ahead of the law. Right now they can copy your signature, use spy cameras to find out your pin number and also copy your card!

Whatever new measures are brought out, the criminal element will soon learn to forge/copy and get around it. :rolleyes:

And no, I don't really know how this can be solved... :heyhey:

Originally posted by kilauea
I'm no too happy. Its not the information that bothers me it's the trust of the custodians of that information that does.
If such information was collected on me I should be able to be assured what purpose that information could be used for, who has access to it and most importantly that it is kept secure.

I for one am not convinced that all those points will be met adequately.

Agree 100%

I'm concerned that local and central government agencies and nosy busybodies will have access to confidential data that they'll use for blackmail, rather than detection and prevention of crime.

Originally posted by Snook
Well, personally I agree with these sentiments...

They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. --Benjamin Franklin

A society that will trade a little order for a little freedom will lose both, and deserve neither. --Thomas Jefferson

Noble sentiments Snook. Perhaps next time you read of a frail old lady beaten up for the meagre contents of her handbag you might visit her in hospital and whisper them in her ear. I'm sure she'll be pleased to be reminded that any consideration of her safety didn't interfere with her assailants liberties or freedoms. :)

Originally posted by Greybeard
Noble sentiments Snook. Perhaps next time you read of a frail old lady beaten up for the meagre contents of her handbag you might visit her in hospital and whisper them in her ear. I'm sure she'll be pleased to be reminded that any consideration of her safety didn't interfere with her assailants liberties or freedoms. :)

Aaah! That's what they want all this information for! To protect frail old ladies!
I thought it was something more sinister. Maybe it's O.K then.....

Sounds a bit paranoid. What exactly do you think people are going to do with your information? Its not going to be anything that anyone can't already find out if they put their mind to it. This system works well and noones rights are infringed

Compulsory DNA testing - you've got to be joking.
Think - if someone was trying to frame you for a crime (bent copper, enemy of yours) what would be needed for that. At the moment it would be difficult to create the evidence. Lifting fingerprints isn't easy etc.
Imagine sometime in the future when we're all on a database. Someone picks up one of your cigarette ends, picks a couple of hairs off your coat, picks up some of your spent chewing gum. He then plants them at the scene of a crime. You get arrested, the courts say that DNA testing is foolproof. You're sent down.

Couldn't happen - could it ??????

Originally posted by Tashi
Sounds a bit paranoid. What exactly do you think people are going to do with your information? Its not going to be anything that anyone can't already find out if they put their mind to it. This system works well and noones rights are infringed

What system?

Originally posted by kilauea
Aaah! That's what they want all this information for! To protect frail old ladies!
I thought it was something more sinister. Maybe it's O.K then.....

I wish ! - but hopefully it might help catch the yobs who mug them.

And I wouldn't worry about anything sinister with this govt. - they're more dexter than Maggie Thatcher :D

Originally posted by Greybeard
I wish ! - but hopefully it might help catch the yobs who mug them.

And I wouldn't worry about anything sinister with this govt. - they're more dexter than Maggie Thatcher :D

I'd rather see a physical police presence though rather than cameras, but I See your point.

I can't make my mind up about Tony B though. Is he crooked or just thick? He's too "george W" for my liking.

It seems really weird to me that a few years ago , I think what most people hated about the Communist Bloc countries and the Nazis was the amount of information they had on everyone.
Has it occured to all those who want more control that one day we might end up with a near--totalitarian government and we are making it extremely easy for them to turn the screws as tight as they want, if ever they gain power.

Also , if nearly everyhing is known about nearly everybody and needs constantly up--dating [info. is useless if it's out-of-date !] , then it will need a huge number of civil servants to check it all and probably a hell of a lot more police to supervise and check those who break the myriad rules. Oh..and by the way who keeps watch on all the police and civil servants ?
As usual , Britain has to go OTT.

Originally posted by sheffexpat

As usual , Britain has to go OTT.

You ain't seen nuffin yet :)

Wait until road pricing comes in and everyone has to have a gadget in their car to let the charging authority know where they've been and when :o

Greybeard points out that more supervision would help us to catch more thugs and muggers and the like.
Why is it that the number of cameras has increased , vast computers have more information on nearly everybody but crimes of violence are increasing all the time ?.
Drunken thugs and drug-addicted muggers don't seem to give a monkey's about cameras. Only a tiny part of all this info. is going to catch violent criminals. The whole emphasis is on the wrong people.
What will stop thugs is Labour Camps , run very strictly , with no fixed date of release ---and definitely no luxuries.
At first it would probably cost a fortune ----but I'm sure no more than we now spend on useless paraphanalia---and after a few years the streets would be largely thug-free and the vast majority could get on with their lives without being spied on 24 hours a day.

Well what man can make...man can break. And theres always people with too much time on their hands that make computer infections and abuse technology in general.

There was a statement a few weeks ago by some DNA experts who said they were worried about police reliance on DNA evidence, because it wasn't as safe as they make out. If there were to be a central database of DNA etc supporting ID cards, would you really feel safe, given that a third of all records on the DVLA computer are now known to be wrong, and they're talking about scrapping the FSA not least because its half a billion pound computer system doesn't work properly? The data on any system is only as good as the person inputting it. So if the government decides to outsource its data inputting to a sweatshop in India, how safe do you feel? Remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! :suspect: I'll get me coat....

Originally posted by Greybeard
Noble sentiments Snook. Perhaps next time you read of a frail old lady beaten up for the meagre contents of her handbag you might visit her in hospital and whisper them in her ear. I'm sure she'll be pleased to be reminded that any consideration of her safety didn't interfere with her assailants liberties or freedoms. :)

Oh yes, we wouldn't want to go back to those dark days of 50 years ago when people could move about freely and all those old women ended up in hospital... what am I thinking. You're right, since we have been watched over so closely violent crime has just fallen and fallen... oh wait.:loopy:

I think the more you treat people like children, the more they will rebel, and crime will increase and go underground further. I have nothing to hide... can't remember when I have broken a law recently, but I don't want people knowing all my movements for the very reason that I have nothing to hide. If I have done nothing wrong, why should I be forced to carry a card with me everywhere?

This could also get very ugly over time. What about if they install chips in cars so they can tell if you have been speeding and you get a fine automatically whenever you go over the limit? Is that still not against peoples freedom? Or when a far right government like that of the Bush administration make it illegal to have an affair, and offer spouses the ability to see each others movements.

Snook, I was a teenager fifty years ago and I don't remember old ladies getting mugged, - some may have had their purses lifted by sleight of hand, but it wasn't a 'money or your life' situation. Teenage crims at that time ended up in Borstal...these days there seems little point in catching them just to give them a slap on the wrist, so CCTV is arguably a wasted resource anyway.

The only way you're going to prevent the spy in the car scenario is stop New Labour getting back in....the Road Pricing Scheme is quite high on their agenda. As for the use of mobile phone and email records etc., I'm quite happy for them to be used in nailing terrorists, drug dealers, people traffickers and kids who mug old ladies. There may be a risk that my own privacy might be invaded by having all this data available but AFAICS there is no threat to my liberty or freedom if I live my life within the law.

I didn't know GWB was contemplating making "affairs" illegal but given his Christian zealotry it wouldn't surprise me, however I don't think the situation will arise here, - at least not from a (very unlikley) Christian government :)

Originally posted by Snook:
Or when a far right government like that of the Bush administration make it illegal to have an affair

Quite right. This kind of system can be abused by the corrupt and oppressive.

Originally posted by Tony Ruscoe
I'm all for (inter)national ID cards... anyone else for / against these? In my eyes, you only wouldn't want one if you had something to hide. I don't agree with ID cards and I have nothing to hide.
Why should we have them, it takes away our civil libertys.
If it would solve crime and eradicate terrorism then maybe, but it won't make any difference so it falls flat on its face before it even starts.
Say no to ID cards.

Originally posted by Greybeard
Snook, I was a teenager fifty years ago and I don't remember old ladies getting mugged, - some may have had their purses lifted by sleight of hand, but it wasn't a 'money or your life' situation.

Yes, maybe my sarcasm was a little too subtle there... that was my point. When there were no cameras and 'high tech' ways of catching criminals, crime was arguably much less than it is today. Now we have all this technology, does it really seem to be making a big difference?

Originally posted by Snook
Now we have all this technology, does it really seem to be making a big difference?

I doubt it's very useful in solving much petty crime, but in serious crime I believe it's having some impact.

Originally posted by Cycleracer
I don't agree with ID cards and I have nothing to hide.
Why should we have them, it takes away our civil libertys.


How would an ID card deprive you of your civil liberties ? What freedoms which you now enjoy would be curtailed by the requirement to carry an ID card ?

Originally posted by Greybeard
How would an ID card deprive you of your civil liberties ? What freedoms which you now enjoy would be curtailed by the requirement to carry an ID card ?

Well, maybe I'm just being a touchy about this, but I often enjoy leaving the house with nothing in my pocket but a tenner. I don't want to have to feel that I always have to carry a card with me, just as I don't always carry my wallet. Why can't we just use drivers licenses as ID? Then you would have the option.

I just don't see how ID cards will make any difference. If this is about terrorism, how many terrorist attacks have there been in the last 5 years in this country? We could use all that money for something that actually is important, like education or health.

If I remember correctly, the government insist everyone has a card, and will have to pay up to £80 for it. The whole thing is to cost billions, but it will help fight terrorism and cut crime. So how come Bush &Co considered ID cards for the US but didn't take up the idea? It will eventually be compulsory to carry your ID card, but don't worry if you leave it at home because the Government say that if you are asked to produce it by a police officer and can't, you'll be given 7 days to bring it to a police station. Now tell me again about how it's to fight terrorism , and not to allow the authorities to keep tabs on everyone?:loopy:

Originally posted by algy
So how come Bush &Co considered ID cards for the US but didn't take up the idea?

Because Americans have always had a stronger sense of freedom than us. Even if it gets a bit warped sometimes. They do at least have a constitution that allows them freedom as a basic right, unlike us.

Originally posted by Snook
Because Americans have always had a stronger sense of freedom than us. Even if it gets a bit warped sometimes. They do at least have a constitution that allows them freedom as a basic right, unlike us.
Except when this President decides the Constitution is getting in his way. Before Bush came to power I would have agreed with you, but since 9/11 Americans have lost a huge amount of freedom, and all in the name of "fighting terrorism".

Nineteen Eighty Four wasn't all about pure politics. Was Orwell anywhere near the mark , regarding social life ?
Remember the woman screechig physical jerks through the tele-screen ? Health freak ?
Remember the neighbour with the horrible little turd if a son , aged 9 , who clearly dominated her ? Budding little chav ?
Remember the easily obtainable pornography for the Proles ?
Remember the debasement of language ? [Yeah , devastatin' , innit , er , er yeah , no , er ...innit...]
Remember the false Wars against Oceana that made tight security so necessary ?
Remember that Oceana was "Airstrip One" , part of the American Bloc ?
Remember the countless civil servants , toiling away in massive office blocks , keeping up surveillance on the rest of Society ?
Remember the awfulness of public life ?
Not a bad try , George !

Not sure about this but apparently if you send an email with content which includes words like George Bush, Tony Blair and assassination attempt/terrorists and just after sending, send a completely benign email with general every day tripe in it to the same address, the one with the assassination/George Bush Tony Blair ref will arrive after the benign one. Not sure if actually works never tried it but think it's meant to test wether or not emails with certain content are picked up by the cyber space police!:suspect:

There is a big computer in America that scans peoples E-mail, and one that reads your text messages, and one that listens to your phone calls, and one that reads your mind through the TV, and one that searches the rubbish for toe-nail clippings so they can clone you and replace you without your faimily knowing and you will be an evil cyborg working for the government and it's all true what happens in The Matrix.

I've said too much, I'm in danger, Agghhhh thay are at the door.........

Originally posted by Snook
They do at least have a constitution that allows them freedom as a basic right, unlike us.

As far as freedom is concerned a constitution is about as useful as constipation...none whatsoever.

Originally posted by JohnRebel
As far as freedom is concerned a constitution is about as useful as constipation...none whatsoever.

Well, I think all those people who have had their rights defended in the supreme court because of the constitution would disagree with you. I agree that Bush is now trying to degrade these rights, just as McCarthy did, but for all the abuse they get, Americans have always been very big on freedom... far more than us.