A report says that the UK will look like a backward nation if we don't go fully metric by the time of the London Olympics in 2012.

However the Government claims that it will cost £770m just to change the roadsigns and other related stuff to metric, and another £10m just to tell us about it!!

The Irish changed their roads to KM and M a year ago and managed to spend only £7m.

Should we go metric?

Are the Government making excuses before they've even thought about it?

The Irish changed their roads to KM and M a year ago and managed to spend only £7m.

Have you ever tried following rural road signs in Ireland?

They go round in circles and certainly have not ALL been metricised.

A report says that the UK will look like a backward nation if we don't go fully metric by the time of the London Olympics in 2012.

Question number one: Who wrote the report? The Society for a Metric Europe™? :roll:

A 'backward nation', just because we use measure distances in miles? Er, ok, I'll take their word for it...

However the Government claims that it will cost £770m just to change the roadsigns and other related stuff to metric, and another £10m just to tell us about it!!

The Irish changed their roads to KM and M a year ago and managed to spend only £7m.

Well, I'll offer to change the UK to a metric system (ie, paint all the roadsigns in km) for just £6m.

Actually, I'd prefer large distances to be measured in km (1000m - 1km - easy). Measuring distances in inches, feet, yards and miles isn't as simple to calculate. It's not because me is being stupid (honest, guvnor) it's because I'm a product of Thatcher's Britain™ *

* (Educated under a low-spending Tory government, employed under a high-taxing Labout government)

There was a piece in the Star the other night saying that it would cost up to £500,000 just to replace the Bus Lane signs on Ecclesall Road and Abbeydale Road.

If this is accurate, £770m to replace all the signs across the UK to tread Kilometres rather than Miles is probably an underestimate!

what would we acheive by doing it? i think its good that the uk dosn't follow the rest of the world and i quite like miles lets do what weve done with english stick to our guns till the rest of the world sees it our way:hihi:

Although I'm sure the Daily Mail would say (or probably scream) otherwise, I don't see anything wrong with a complete change to metric distances.

Imperial measures don't make sense. Twelve inches in a foot, three feet in a yard and 1760 yards in a mile - which genius thought that one up? By contrast, metric measures completely make sense. You have 1000 millimetres in a metre, then 1000 metres in a kilometre. Easy peasy. :D

the imperial measurments are derived from the division of the earth i belive or maybe i dremt it

just another thing to try and make england disappear into the EU, our culture is being destroyed.

The problem is that some of the world understand SI units, some imperial and then the good old yanks even have a slightly different form of imperial units. I buy petrol in litres and yet I only really understand fuel consumption in miles per gallon. I can visualise 6ft tall but I have no idea what 1.78M might look like. This is because the old units made more sense in that most everyday objects tended to be a sensible number such as 6 or 8 or 6.5. The SI units very often produce difficult numbers for everyday objects such as people being between 1.5 and 2 metres high.

Clearly the best way forward is for everyone in the world to change to a completely new set of units. I would suggest that we have euro-inches and euro-feet but replace euro-miles with nautical miles.

No No No to metric - keep our lovely British miles!

I'm all for keeping our own weights and measurements. I don't see the point in trying to be like everybody else any way. Besides which, if everybody stuck their head down the loo, it wouldn't mean that we had to as well!

I prefer miles, feet, inches, ounces, pounds and stone.... balls to the EU and their metric system :D

I suppose the trip/mileage meter on all UK cars would have to be adapted to Kilometers too.....and on the motorways it would seem each service station would be much further on since the last one.....:confused:

The only benefit of keeping Imperial units is that the older generation can't understand metric.

I was one of the last generations to be taught metric and Imperial at school. Funnily enough, I've completely forgotten most of the Imperial system because it's quite frankly, archaic.

The metric and SI systems, are more widely accepted because they make sense. The fact that distance, weight and volume can all be linked with nice round numbers is brilliant. ie. a container 100mm x 100mm x 100mm (100^3mm) equals a litre in volume. A litre of water weighs 1 kilogramme. What a beautiful system.

As far as I know, all British school kids are now taught in metric, so if we are still using miles in the future, we'll have a pretty confused country.

I'd like to ask those that support keeping the mile: would you also like to change the current monetary system in this country back to the old system (shillings etc.)?

I suppose the trip/mileage meter on all UK cars would have to be adapted to Kilometers too.....and on the motorways it would seem each service station would be much further on since the last one.....:confused:

I thought of mentioning this, but came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be that big a deal to leave your milometer in miles.

Unless it becomes a punishable offence :o

In which case the milometer will be replaced by the kilometermeter :D

I'd like those who support keeping the mile: would you also like to change the current monetary system in this country back to the old system (shillings etc.)?

Yes, perhaps they would also like us to do away with washing machines, and go back to washing our clothes on the banks of the River Don :)

"A report says that the UK will look like a backward nation if we don't go fully metric by the time of the London Olympics in 2012".

£777million to change the signs-lets follow the Wembley way and double this quote to £1.5 Billion and who would fund this, more Olympic scratch cards maybe?

Will Britain look backward using Miles and not km?

Britain, the country which most other countries in the world aspire to become and look to for ideas on economic growth, low unemployment, low inflation as well as our free society. Britain with its wealth and freedom, history, beautiful cities and rural English countryside, with its unique architecture and its people is flawed I hear these countries cry, Britain is flawed, we cannot use Britain as a model to develop our country, such a shame but they will insist on using Miles and it’s the usage of miles that make Britain backward!!!

Should we get rid of miles, should we lose more of our identity, shall we conform to Euro ideals, the Euro, straight cucumbers etcetera?

Didn’t the USA hold the Olympics a few years back? Do they still use miles, have bent cucumbers…………..:|

I'm not sure how people equate British with unit of measurement. :confused:

The fact is we have been converting to metric for decades. I know that in the science and engineering world, metric has been used for a long time.

I really hope that our kids adopt a country that fits in with what they were taught at school.

If the idea is to be fully integrated with Europe we might as well start driving on the right hand side of the road at the same time then we’ll only have to move the signs once. :D

I can just see John Prescott announcing it in the Commons…..”From April the 1st all cars will drive on the right and all HGV’s will follow six months later……”

I can just see John Prescott announcing it in the Commons…..”From April the 1st all cars will drive on the right and all HGV’s will follow six months later……”

:clap:

"And offroaders can use either the central reservation, or the motorway embankment"

the imperial measurments are derived from the division of the earth i belive or maybe i dremt it

I think that's metric. I'm not certain, but I think the circumference of the earth is exactly 40,000 kilometres, which is why metres and kilometres were chosen to be the lengths that they are.

:)

Why would we look backwards. I'm sure the visitors have better things to do than discuss the pro's and con's of our system versus theirs surely.

I went to Disney in Paris before Christmas and when I got home I did not hold a discussion on the merits of the km instead I spoke about the (bad) experience of actually being their. Surely the only thing on their minds would be how many medals their country got. If anything we'll look backwards due to the fact we'll probably get a lot fewer than many of the visitors.

What I don't understand is that I was brought up with the metric way of life and my wife who is four years younger used imperial in school.

Andy 78:"I'm not sure how people equate British with unit of measurement."

The Imperial units are an irregularly standardized system of units that have been used in the United Kingdom and its former colonies, including the United States and Commonwealth countries. The Imperial system is also called the English system, the British system or, perhaps more correctly, the Avoirdupois System. In the United States, it is sometimes called the Standard system. It is the primary alternative to the metric system.

I think this is how people equate British with unit of measurement.

All i'm trying to do is to put a point across with respect to why do we need to follow with what everyone else is doing. And do not think for a minute that the metric system is fool proof. I'm an Engineer and use the SI system unfortunatly not everyone using metric does. The amount of conversions I perform a day is, quite a lot.

For e.g. Imperial unit of force is pound-force-thats all it can be, simple. Metric force-SI unit is (N) Newton, but more than often I see kiloNewton, or daNewtons,or milli-Newton and a couple more.

Anyway, back to the original post.
There is nothing wrong with change but what is the need for change here with our road signs-and would it be worth £1billion to you?

The avoirdupois system is as British as it sounds....

So how much will it cost and how long will it take to to move thirteen sacks and one hundreweight, two hundred thousands smoots, in a vehicle that averages thirty six cubits per second, and gets twenty three leagues to the peck, if fuel is eight shillings and thruppence a gill?

If you can work that out in your head then you don't need metric.

Answers on a postcard please....

It makes perfect sense to me to change completely to the metric system. I buy my milk in litres, put litres of petrol in the car tank, and I've adapted quite well to no longer having 144 pennies to the pound. Arguments about retaining a British element to measurement don't wash with me.

However, the sheer scale of converting road signs to the metric system, and the huge cost involved, makes me think twice about this proposal. I can think of far better things to spend this amount of money on. So, on balance, I remain unconvinced of the merit of this proposal.

Just a footnote:

Whilst flying this summer to far away exotic locations the engines on the plane will be either GE or Rolls Royce-just think about that BOTH utilise good old BS Imperial nuts and Bolts and not metric!

Every engineer I know still uses "thou" as a measurement too...


However, the sheer scale of converting road signs to the metric system, and the huge cost involved, makes me think twice about this proposal. I can think of far better things to spend this amount of money on. So, on balance, I remain unconvinced of the merit of this proposal.

That's easy, just don't rush it.

Roadsigns get replaced all the time. If you gradually replace each sign, at first with dual km and m readings, and then, 10 years later with km only, then within 25-30 years you have converted the road system to kilometers and not spent a grote more than you would have done anyway.

Just a footnote:

Whilst flying this summer to far away exotic locations the engines on the plane will be either GE or Rolls Royce-just think about that BOTH utilise good old BS Imperial nuts and Bolts and not metric!

That would be because the design of passenger airliners has hardly changed for the last 30 years. Look at the 747. Converting to new nuts and bolts after 30 years of production is going to be one major headache. And it's already stuffed full of M3 bolts holding the avionics together.

What about time? It's ridiculous having 60 seconds, 60 minutes, 24 hours, 7 days, 28,29,30,31 days, etc. We're not living in the dark ages you know!

What about time? It's ridiculous having 60 seconds, 60 minutes, 24 hours, 7 days, 28,29,30,31 days, etc. We're not living in the dark ages you know!

There's always Swatch Internet Time - it's 731 at the moment. I'm gonna have some supper in about 40 beats.

ABSOLUTELY NOT:mad: sorry for shouting but this is how strong I feel.

However, the sheer scale of converting road signs to the metric system, and the huge cost involved, makes me think twice about this proposal. I can think of far better things to spend this amount of money on. So, on balance, I remain unconvinced of the merit of this proposal.

The thing is that the DoT (or whatever it's called now) are claiming costs 10x of what everyone else has managed recently on doing the changeover.

Ireland cost 7m to change
UK Govt estimate 770m!

I forget the actual figure, but Ireland's actual cost was something like £87 a sign, the DoT say it will cost +£1400 per sign!!!!!

Is the UK really that inefficient or do we have an incompetent UK Government departments telling porkies? ;)

Another bright idea from that much loved failure of a politician, Neil (gravy train) Kinnock. Perhaps he should be persuaded to pay for this hair brained scheme by donating a years worth of his not unsubstantial expenses. I'm sure that would cover it, especially if Glenys chipped in.............

The thing is that the DoT (or whatever it's called now) are claiming costs 10x of what everyone else has managed recently on doing the changeover.

Ireland cost 7m to change
UK Govt estimate 770m!

I forget the actual figure, but Ireland's actual cost was something like £87 a sign, the DoT say it will cost +£1400 per sign!!!!!

Is the UK really that inefficient or do we have an incompetent UK Government departments telling porkies? ;)

Whats wrong with a rolling replacement, replacing each sign as it reaches the end of its lifespan? No extra expenditure at all...

The thing is that the DoT (or whatever it's called now) are claiming costs 10x of what everyone else has managed recently on doing the changeover.

Ireland cost 7m to change
UK Govt estimate 770m!

I forget the actual figure, but Ireland's actual cost was something like £87 a sign, the DoT say it will cost +£1400 per sign!!!!!

Is the UK really that inefficient or do we have an incompetent UK Government departments telling porkies? ;)

It's called the Department for Transport (DfT). I don't have the answers to your question. Why not ask the government department instead? Ring Enquiry Helpdesk on 020 7944 8300.

ABSOLUTELY NOT:mad: sorry for shouting but this is how strong I feel.

Surely you can give us some reasons why not.

I seriously don't think it's a case of us following Europe here. It's just the most sensible option considering that in 20-30 years time, there will be no one left in this country that was brought up using Imperial. Unless we send everyone back to school to learn the Imperial system so that they can work out out how many miles their car will go with the amount of petrol in litres that they've just bought. :confused:

Of course it was cheaper in Ireland. The place is much smaller and has hardly a road network. The total length of the motorway network is about as long as the M18. So that's not a good comparison.

I used to be a great fan of Metric. In school I only learnt metric. my brothers children in Hampshire only know metric, they say they are 1m 30cm and 42kg. In Germany I use metric measurements every day. They work.
But I don't see the point in changing systems that work and are understood.

I don't think it matters whether miles or km. We may be the only country apart from the US, Liberia and Burma who uses miles. But is that a measure of being modern? A measure of being modern is surely free education for all, equal opportunities, good climate for investors, extensive broadband access and use, good health provision etc etc. Not weights and measures.

I'll have to dig out the differing costs per sign... that's the big difference.

You may well be right about how a country measures itself, but we do have a half cock arrangement at the moment. How many people use or even understand KM/l? I still use MPG, but I buy my fuel in litres.

It's a bit cockamamie to say the least.

I would think that we would be better with one or the other, and metric is what everyone is taught and uses in their professional life and has been for years! We only use feet, miles and inches for the human kind of measures these days. I don't think that a change to Km's for roads would be a bad thing on balance. It feels a bit silly to keep to miles just for roads.

if you need to know the km equivalent though, it's not hard to convert reasonably accurately in your head. divide by five, multiply by eight.

The thing is that the DoT (or whatever it's called now) are claiming costs 10x of what everyone else has managed recently on doing the changeover.

Ireland cost 7m to change
UK Govt estimate 770m!

I forget the actual figure, but Ireland's actual cost was something like £87 a sign, the DoT say it will cost +£1400 per sign!!!!!

Is the UK really that inefficient or do we have an incompetent UK Government departments telling porkies? ;)

I refer you to my earlier post

Surely things like motorway signage will be more expensive to replace as it involves closing lanes (you wouldn't want a massive sign squashing your car) - I'd imagine we have a much more extensive trunk road network than Ireland do...

I thought the government had already said it wasn't worth doing anyway, down to the cost...

Alastair Darling, Sec of State for Transport, flatly ruled out any such proposals now or in the future.

As Phan said though, it would make more sense replacing the signs step by step. When new signs need replacing, we could put up signs that indicate miles and Kms to let people get used to it. Then when those signs need replacing, we just switch to Kms. It'll take many years for the process to be complete, but at least we'd be moving forward.

Alastair Darling, Sec of State for Transport, flatly ruled out any such proposals now or in the future.
:hihi: I like that joke Phan :hihi:

The reason we drive on the left is all to do with which hand you hold the whip when driving a horse at cart, right handed people hold the whip in their right hand so have all the "other" side of the road for clearance to crack the whip. If you hold the whip in your left hand you get it tangled in roadside trees etc Napoleon was left handed and decreed that the french and everyone else they conquered would drive on the right. As I remember Napoleon (and the French) lost at the battle of Waterloo, so perhaps its those that drive on the right that should change!

The thing is that the DoT (or whatever it's called now) are claiming costs 10x of what everyone else has managed recently on doing the changeover.

Ireland cost 7m to change
UK Govt estimate 770m!

I forget the actual figure, but Ireland's actual cost was something like £87 a sign, the DoT say it will cost +£1400 per sign!!!!!

Is the UK really that inefficient or do we have an incompetent UK Government departments telling porkies? ;)

When I went o Ireland only the main roads were in kilometers everything else was in miles in there was no way of telling which was which.

The reason we drive on the left is all to do with which hand you hold the whip when driving a horse at cart, right handed people hold the whip in their right hand so have all the "other" side of the road for clearance to crack the whip. If you hold the whip in your left hand you get it tangled in roadside trees etc Napoleon was left handed and decreed that the french and everyone else they conquered would drive on the right. As I remember Napoleon (and the French) lost at the battle of Waterloo, so perhaps its those that drive on the right that should change!

Absolutely nothing to do with miles of kilometres, but the reason we drive on the left is to leave our sword hands free. Napoleon decreed that people should drive on the right so that they couldn't fight each other on the roads as their swords wouldn't meet in the middle!

The fact is we have been converting to metric for decades. I know that in the science and engineering world, metric has been used for a long time.

Not necessarily. I worked in engineering in Sheffield and Chesterfield for many years during the 90's and most of our technical drawings - even the ones supplied by Rolls Royce - were in inches and thousands-of-an-inch.

I think the unit of measurement should be changed to Smoots.

Not particularly bothered one way or the other although I can think of better things to spend public money on. I presume we'd have to change all the speeding laws as well, plus things like in business where you claim travel expenses by the mile - could be a pretty hefty bill overall.

One good thing about metric I suppose is that it would make Leeds appear further away.

Slightly off topic but we appear to be forgetting that the measurments of a football pitch are still very much based on yards - we certainly don't want those tampering with!

Being a visitor from Canada (but called a closet Brit many times in my life), I found the Imperial system a bit confusing.

I too was taught both systems growing up and Canada eventually changed over completely to metric about 30 years ago. It seemed confusing for some at the time but our then government said we are going to do it and that was that. Obviously by now we are use to the system and once you are introduced to it, the metric system is quite easy to use.

I do believe that there is a hidden agenda on someone's part and they are using the 2012 Olympics as an excuse. But unfortunately that is our society today - hidden agendas can be quite influential.

I have heard some chatter whilst here that you don't want to lose your British identify; pints, miles, etc. Trust me - someone looking from the outside in, that will not be taken away from you, only if you let them. The British 'culture' is truly unique and wonderful and no matter what, you will always be able to buy a pint at your local. I buy a pint all the time in Canada - it is only a term, not an identify.

British culture is so much more than just pints and miles. Continue to celebrate who you really are!

Well balanced view CanChick.

Welcome to the forum by the way. hope you enjoy your stay.

:wave:

Waste of money. I can easily see how a sign might cost £1000, what with new EU laws about crashability of new signs they are getting more complicated and more expensive.

Not to mention, a lot of the current signs would be replaced with digital signs which are a lot more expensive.

:hihi: Im still struggling with inches, feet and miles for gods sake, im doomed i tell u , doomed??:confused: :confused:

Canchick has the convincing argument for retention, - it's a cultural thing after all. The British are reknowned for eccentricity and what could be more eccentric than miles, furlongs, chains, yards, feet and inches (not to mention rods and perches) :D

And firkins and hogsheads, gallons and pints and drams, pounds and ounces (RIP) etc. - too much of our heritage is being washed down the drain in the name of perfidious progress.

Metrication has been a plot by the French to undermine our national self-confidence, a spiteful revenge for all the drubbings we've inflicted on them over the centuries.

Give in to them on this and they'll be insisting we call a penny a centime :suspect:

I think the unit of measurement should be changed to Smoots.

Have you been at the mushrooms again Phan ?:D

Thanks Andy78 - this will be my last posting until I get back to the land of the maple leaf.

They can only take away what you let them....

Have you been at the mushrooms again Phan ?:D

Much less often than you might think.

The Smoot is a unit of measurement. Even in Google Earth, you can measure distances in Smoots. We'd be the first country to do so - talk about carving out your own national identity.

100 miles is about 95 kiloSmoots (ksm)

see the conversion here -
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=100+miles+in+smoots&btnG=Search&meta=

Have a look (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_unit)

I pine for the poppyseed and barley corn.

I vote GO METRIC!

It's universal conformity. I don't know about you, but road signs around the world (speed limit) confuse me...

I'm so tempted to do 110mph on the European motorways!

I am against purely on the basis that we would have to change song titles:

For instance, poor Chrissie Hynde would have to sing, '8046.5 metres' instead of '5000 Miles' and soul legend Edwin Starr would spin in his grave having to scrap '25 Miles' to '40.23250 kilometre' - it doe'snt quite scan!:hihi:

Have you ever tried following rural road signs in Ireland?

They go round in circles and certainly have not ALL been metricised.

As you head west in the north of Scotland, all the road signs are being replaced to have dual language, English and Gaelic!!
Metrication? forget it. Gaelic is almost an extinct language but they're catering for a very very small minority.

Gaelic is almost an extinct language but they're catering for a very very small minority.
Ah, but there will be a couple of hundred votes in those dual language signs. There's no price not worth paying when it comes to that ;)