Hi All

I am a keen mountain biker in the peaks. This is the main reason I studied in Sheffield 15 years ago, and why I decided to stay in this wonderful place.

More recently I have noticed that there has been a massive, sudden increase to the numbers of scramble bikes and land rover type vehicles using, and damaging, the routes and byways out there. They are usually found in convoy groups, adding to the damage they cause.
Many routes that I have ridden for years now have huge ruts in them, and areas where there is such churned up mud, your only option is to take to the heather and skirt around it, thus adding to erosion.

Last weekend I walked from Redmires resovoir up past Stanedge pole to Stanedge Edge. I saw 1 guy on a mountain bike, about 6 people on foot. In the same period I counted 19 trials bikes, all thundering along, creating loads of noise and churning up the track.
This is not an exaggeration! Honest.

What are peoples views on this subject?

It's a sad reflection of what some people are like these days ...

Some people don't care at all about nature and are more than happy to disturb the peace and spoil it for the rest of us ... so long as they get their kicks.

I love being in the counrtyside ... walking ... for me it is a time to 'connect with nature'.

Some 'inconsiderate thugs' just don't get that ... and they are more than happy to rip up the countryside with their trials bikes.

If they wanna do that ... fine ... but go somewhere else and do it.

Hmm. A can of worms opened here...

This is quite a big issue at the moment.
There is a push towards getting many of the current Byways downgraded to Bridleways and Footpaths, so as to prohibit the use of motor vehicles on them.
(As you may or may not be aware, I'm pretty sure it is currently legal for any vehicle to use the path you mention, as it is a public byway - unless the Byway classification ends at the gate just below Stanedge Pole, but I dont think it does)
It is mainly the walkers/ramblers that are pushing for this, as they see off-road vehicles as the main culprit of trail erosion.
They've got a point too.

However, I think it is something like less than 5% of the available rights of way in the UK are classed as Byways. Which means walkers (the ones who kick up all the fuss, lets be honest) have 95% of British trails to themselves. I think they often forget this.

Mountain bikers are stuck somewhere in the middle (I should know, have been one all my life). Bikes have the same rights as horses, so are fine on Bridleways, but not on Footpaths.
I found that, as a bike rider, despite us causing much less trail damage than horses, we were accepted much less than our equestrian riding brothers. Horse riders never seem to be the target of the 'wrath of the rambler'.

I think many walkers are unaware of the trail rights of other users, as they are allowed on any right of way they dont have to think about it much.
But bikers, horse riders, trailbike riders and 4x4ers have to be very careful, so they are more in the know when it comes to trail rights.
Bikes and horses both have to give way to walkers, and bikes have to give way to horses. Following those guidelines, I think cars and motorcycles should really give way to all other trail users, and IMO, not really exceed speeds of about 10mph. It seems fair to me.

I have been a keen mountain biker all my life, but due to injury I have recently given the sport a back seat, and am planning to get a Land Rover in the near future to get back into the countryside.
So, again, I will be doing a hobby that enrages the hardcore ramblers.

The thought of not being allowed access to local byways does bother me, but I think there are more important things to worry about, to be honest. I dont know about ramblers, but trail rights come fairly low down in the scheme of things for me. Important things like work, health and bills etc come first.

If they close the byways to traffic, i'll just have to travel to - and pay to use - one of the few off-road centres in the UK.
It'll be a shame, as the walkers can avoid areas used by vehicles if they want.
It is slightly more difficult for cyclists to avoid the vehicles, as they will come across each other more often.



That said, I think most 4x4ers and trail bikers could be more sympathetic to the trail. I know most 'proper' Land Rover owners and enthusiasts try to 'tread lightly', but a lot of people just take their 4x4s out and thrash around the countryside with little thought for the surroundings. The same goes for trailbike riders. It's the few who do act in an anti-social way that give everybody else a bad name. Shame that.

Originally posted by Jamie
'inconsiderate thugs'

That seems to be the general opinion people have of trail riders, 4x4ers, and mountain bikers.
Seems way harsh to me. Very over-judgemental.

As a horse rider who used to ride alot in the Peaks until very recently, i understand about the arguements regarding rights of way, and who should use the land and who shouldn't etc. I met many very considerate trail bikers & landrover drivers, who would stop and turn off their engines to let my horse past, without spooking her. The same goes for most mountain bikers and walkers, afterall we all know we have rights of way, so its better to be considerate and watch out for others, rather than being selfish and not looking before you race down the hill!

But i have had the misfortune to meet some 'idiots' in landrovers, or on trail bikes who have no idea how to treat other countryside users. Wizzing past a horse at speed is not funny, the people who do this purely for amusement should not be allowed to roam freely. There are numerous tracks which have been spoilt by bikers or landrovers churning up the mud in wet weather, only to leave huge ruts which dry and become hard + form dangerous holes for other users. They are no longer suitable for walkers, horses or cyclists as it wouldn't take much to fall whilst riding over these.

At Longshaw - national trust estate, you have to have a permit to take a horse or bike there and they only sell a few permits a year. This means they can keep an eye on the land management and stops the damage that we've seen to other land.

Originally posted by bibble
More recently I have noticed that there has been a massive, sudden increase to the numbers of scramble bikes and land rover type vehicles using, and damaging, the routes and byways out there. They are usually found in convoy groups,.......

Of course they are found in groups :loopy: What do you expect a trail rider to do go out by theirselves, have an accident with no back up support?

My personal opinion on the whole byway issue is that none of them should be downgraded. I have never ridden a trail bike I am more a mountain biker and walker myself, but just because I do not partake in the sport of trail riding it doesn't mean I should begrude them the use of the land for my own selfish opinions. If I dislike it I can always walk/cycle elsewhere.

Yes as with any sport their are the idiots..

the walkers who set up booby traps
the mountain bikers who speed through puddles and splash the walkers
the trail riders who drive to fast past horses.

But the people who respect other peoples sports far outweigh the idiots.


Originally posted by Jamie
Some 'inconsiderate thugs' just don't get that ... and they are more than happy to rip up the countryside with their trials bikes.

If they wanna do that ... fine ... but go somewhere else and do it.

I think you have missed the point of trail riding somewhere :loopy: The idea is to go out into the COUNTRYSIDE and have fun on byways, whilst respecting other users. Next thing you will be saying is that the mountain bikers should go else where, but you can't go mountain biking with out a mountain.

Jackthedog you are quite correct, this is a serious can of worms issue.

Your figures are pretty much correct. It's around the 5/4 percent mark for lanes that still have access for motor vehicles. The CROW act 2000 has also muddied the waters on this.

It's the usual story though really. Everyone blames everyone else. The walkers (RA) want the lanes all to themselves and will ignore any points regarding damage done by foot traffic (which can be considerable).

Horses also cause damage, as do bikes (mountain and scramblers) and off-roaders.

If you want to off-road try to understand the needs of the other users and also show some consideration. If the lane is looking bad, don't use it - let it recover. Don't go in groups of more than 2 or 3 either.

Many off-road groups arrange events where they repair lanes. I know a friend who keeps one clear near him for EVERYONE to use. I know other groups do this but you'll be hard pushed to find the RA having footpath fixing days !!!

I know of one incident where some ramblers played hell with 2 landies who were off-roading. Later the same day the same group were encountered and one had slipped and injured their ankle. They weren't complaining when they were driven off the moors and down to the hospital.

Remember the countryside is for all - there just needs to be consideration given.

As someone who loves walking, mountain biking and the occasional off-roading trip I see the problem from all sides (plus my wife rides horses).

I have been riding the Peak and surrounding district for the last 10 years and the key word here is tollerance. Now, this is just my observation and personal opinion, but in all my experiences with conflicts between user groups, its walkers (generalisation I know) that seem to be the least tollerant of them all.

Now our MTB club doesnt always stick to bridleways admittedly. Why? Mainly, because the type of techincal riding we like to do cant be found on a fireroad or bridleway. Also, its quiet hard to find original routes that are linked by bridleways anyway. So, obviously, we get ear ache from walkers. Not because we are riding recklessly, not because we are unfriendly, not because we cause more errosion (it has been disproved that MTB'ers cause more errosion that walkers) but just because we dont have any 'right' to be there - legally or not.

Now, walkers did their trespass thing early last century and won their 'right to roam'. Now fortunately for them, that gave them the right apparently to have sole access to all those interesting trails. It's access to these same trails that MTB riders have been fighting for for the last 10 years, but of course, we are a minority group (at least compared to walkers) and our plees fall on deaf ears.

The whole ancient and out-of-date bylaw system needs to be re-thought to accomodate all user groups. In my opinion walkers and cyclist should be grouped as one class as they get about under their own steam so to speek. Horses should be given more dedicated trails, as should motorcycles and 4x4. There is alot of country side out there. So much so that none of these groups needs to conflict. Just needs someone to organise it all.

Originally posted by jackthedog
That seems to be the general opinion people have of trail riders, 4x4ers, and mountain bikers.
Seems way harsh to me. Very over-judgemental.

I am not saying everyone is like that ... but there have been times where gangs of men have sped past me on trials bikes and they show little respect for the surroundings or other people enjoying the country side.

Originally posted by Skatiechik
I think you have missed the point of trail riding somewhere The idea is to go out into the COUNTRYSIDE and have fun on byways, whilst respecting other users. Next thing you will be saying is that the mountain bikers should go else where, but you can't go mountain biking with out a mountain.

I didn't say anything about mountain bikers did I !? ... NO

I am talking about guys on trials bikes ... which are totally different to mountain bikers ...

A lot more noisy.
More polution (from exhausts).
Travel much faster.
Require more room.
Generally they assume right of way over hikers (i am bigger than you so move or i will drive in to you).
Cause more damage to countryside.

Totally diff kettle of fish to mountain bikers ... who acknowledge and communicate much more with walkers ... and don't assume right of way all the time.

Does anyone know the locations of any local organised (licensed)events? Such as scrambling,hill climbs,trail racing etc. with plenty of mud and thrills. My interest is purely as a photographer,and getting into the country.Also BMX.
Thanx.

Why the sudden explosion of motorised vehicles in the Peak though? This is what I cant understand. I have been riding those routes for 17 years, and never have I encountered so many motor bikes and Land Rovers before. The byeway trails are knackered. From a purely selfish point of view, they are un-rideable on a mountain bike. In some cases they are un-walkable too.

The noise of the bikes carries for miles too. Not so much the Landies, but they kick out diesel fumes by the bucketload.

I rode out across the Houndkirk track as it was getting dark a few months back. I happened across a group of 5 Discoveries travelling at about 2 miles an hour. I had no choice other than tagging on behind the last one, because I couldn't get past! Very frustrating.
For me, as a mountain biker, a major issue and worry is being tarred with the same brush as these guys. After all, we have wheels too. If a ban comes in to place, we don't deserve to be kicked off the trails along with these 'newbies'. Mountain bikers have just about become acceptable to a lot of ramblers these days. Its taken a long time for that to happen and it would be a crying shame if we lost it now.

I walk up totley moss from time to time and some of the paths have been carved 6 feet deep by trail bikers. the main trail up is so carved it had become lose stone, the other side of totley moss is fine though because it is owned by derbyshire council and they have banned 4x4s and trail bikes.

How simple it could be if we each kept to our own : walkers = foot paths; horses = bridle ways; cars, bikes, motorbikes etc = roads. Apart from the minority who park on the pavement [& who are breaking the law but that's for another thread] generally in urban areas motorists stick to the road, & pedestrians to the pavement - why do we find it so difficult to apply this elementary logic in the countryside? Most walkers are motorists as well - but when we are walking in the countryside we are trying to get away from noise, fumes etc, but apparently there's a minority who can't allow this. Is it just another example of the deleterious effect getting behind a wheel seems to have on even the most saintly amongst us?

Originally posted by chrisb
but when we are walking in the countryside we are trying to get away from noise, fumes etc, but apparently there's a minority who can't allow this.

but when trail bikers are riding in the countryside they are trying to get away from noise, fumes, hazards, etc left by the walkers driving their cars home, but apparently there is a minority who can't allow this.

Originally posted by chrisb
How simple it could be if we each kept to our own : walkers = foot paths; horses = bridle ways; cars, bikes, motorbikes etc = roads. Apart from the minority who park on the pavement [& who are breaking the law but that's for another thread] generally in urban areas motorists stick to the road, & pedestrians to the pavement - why do we find it so difficult to apply this elementary logic in the countryside? Most walkers are motorists as well - but when we are walking in the countryside we are trying to get away from noise, fumes etc, but apparently there's a minority who can't allow this. Is it just another example of the deleterious effect getting behind a wheel seems to have on even the most saintly amongst us?

Keep to our own? Elementary logic? What?

Byways - the trails where you will find 4x4s and trail bikes are roads. Vehicular access is fully legal.

Are you saying walkers should be forbidden access to Bridleways and Byways?

Originally posted by chrisb
Is it just another example of the deleterious effect getting behind a wheel seems to have on even the most saintly amongst us?

I dont think so.

Most of us go out there for a bit of peace, quiet, clean air and healthy exercise. Having scramble bikes and 4x4 all over the place is horrible.

I'm a motorcyclist myself and I understand the fun aspect of getting off road, but it causes such a ruination of the landscape that I think it should be restricted to certain areas so that walkers and climbers can stay away.

It's the same with Jet ski's.....fantastic fun, but if you're lying on a beach listening to them buzz all day.....

We should simply create spaces where they can run their machines. After all, they don't need peace and tranquility and we don't need noise and pollution in the countryside............the cities are bad enough!

Originally posted by Tyto Alba
We should simply create spaces where they can run their machines.

We have. They are called Public Byways. Avoid them and you should avoid the trailbikes and 4x4s.

There is another issue - during a walk in the Peaks the other day it came to our notice that hundreds of metres of path had been surfaced with limestone chippings for motorbikes.

As I'm talking about the Dark Peak in particular, this seemingly 'sensible' (stopping erosion, safer access) path creation will cause a huge amount of ecological damage as the limestone seeps into the surrounding peat and permanently changes the chemical balance of what happens to be an internationally endangered habitat.

Creating access to the countryside is a good thing, but it comes with MAJOR responsibilities, and all too often it seems that the people who shout about their right to pursue their hobbies in rural settings either don't think things through properly to manage their impact on the environment they are using, or they just don't give a ****.

It's EVERYONE'S responsibility to look after rural areas if you want to continue using them.

Cosy:cool:

Originally posted by jackthedog
We have. They are called Public Byways. Avoid them and you should avoid the trailbikes and 4x4s.



Yes, but it isn't quite that simple.


According to the countryside and rights of way act 2000 the definitive map indicating the distinctions between bridleway, public path, restricted byway etc won't be published until 2006. After that it will be reviewed every 10 years, until the final version in 2026.....which will set the distinctions in stone.

So I can't completely avoid public byways....and I'm not sure which byways are restricted (meaning they are closed to motor vehicles).


I think it would be better if the green laners had areas of countryside for their own use....leaving the rest of the land to traditional pastimes. That way they could establish their own rights of way under the act as well as not annoying other countryside users (a massive majority). Not to mention preserving sites of outstanding beauty or scientific interest etc.

It seems to me that the main lure of the countryside is peace, quiet, the wildlife and "natural" surroundings.
Motor vehicles make a lot of noise. It's OK if the owners of these don't like peace, quiet and wildlife but they are adversely impacting on many other people, who prefer the sounds of bird song and the babbling of brooks to the roar of the internal combustion engine.
It's about as welcome a sound as the firework that rattles the house in the early hours of the morning.
Off-road vehicles should be restricted to agricultural use and not used for fun and pastimes in these environments. Let's retain a tranquil retreat from the hurly burly of city life.

And as an occaisional walker, I'm not keen on the choice sometimes presented of either walking through a bogland of 18 inch ruts or scampering through gorse bushes, bracken, forest or rock faces to avoid having to do so.

Originally posted by jackthedog
We have. They are called Public Byways. Avoid them and you should avoid the trailbikes and 4x4s.

So you are saying that the heather embankment area on the left hand side of the path up to stanedge pole from Redmires resovoir is a public byeway? It would appear so from all of the ruts and chewed up holes. This is a good 50 feet off the real track in places.
The same applies on parts of Houndkirk too.

True, they are allowed on these byeway roads.

True, they have just as much right to be there as anyone else.

But its also true that the environment out there is getting seriously screwed up by them, even if it may be a minority of them causing the damage.

I can see how it may be an enjoyable thing to do. Especially the trials bike riding. But I myself would not be happy knowing that everyone I saw on that sunny Saturday afternoon in the peak park wished I wasn't there spoiling their peace and quiet. On that basis alone, I wouldn't do it.
As for the Land Rovers, I can't see the point. If you were challenging some 1 in 1 hill, yes. But crawling along an easy track at 2 miles an hour wouldn't seem too challenging. And as for the other 35 of them in the convoy, what do they get other than the view of the arse end of another 4x4 and a mouthful of diesel fumes?

Originally posted by bibble
So you are saying that the heather embankment area on the left hand side of the path up to stanedge pole from Redmires resovoir is a public byeway? It would appear so from all of the ruts and chewed up holes. This is a good 50 feet off the real track in places.
The same applies on parts of Houndkirk too.


Hmm, I have no comeback for that, some people dont obay the rules. They are idiots. They give their sports a bad name, and that is a shame.
But banning 4x4s and trail bikes probably wont stop those particular people anyway will it? If they dont obay the law now, why will they in the future?

Originally posted by bibble
But its also true that the environment out there is getting seriously screwed up by them


Is it really that bad? Do you really, truly feel it is 'seriously screwing up' the environment? I dont know just how bad an impact it has on the country.

Originally posted by bibble
I myself would not be happy knowing that everyone I saw on that sunny Saturday afternoon in the peak park wished I wasn't there spoiling their peace and quiet. On that basis alone, I wouldn't do it.

Your always gonna upset someone with whatever you do. No matter how considerate I rider I always was, their was still ramblers lovingly setting up wire traps between trees for us.

I dont think you should tip-toe around others just because they dont approve.
There are more important things to worry about.

Originally posted by bibble
As for the Land Rovers, I can't see the point. If you were challenging some 1 in 1 hill, yes. But crawling along an easy track at 2 miles an hour wouldn't seem too challenging. And as for the other 35 of them in the convoy, what do they get other than the view of the arse end of another 4x4 and a mouthful of diesel fumes?

Hey, each to their own. Millions of people throughout the world love football. I hate it. It bores me. It actually annoys me. Doesnt mean I think its pointless.

Originally posted by Skatiechik
but when trail bikers are riding in the countryside they are trying to get away from noise, fumes, hazards, etc left by the walkers driving their cars home, but apparently there is a minority who can't allow this.

How can you get away from noise and fumes on top of a running motorbike?

That 8ft deep water filled rut along the Totley tunnel path is no joke.

I think nice clear guidelines would help so that everyone knows what to expect when they choose a path.

That way walkers could choose paths away from MTBs and trials bikes and vice versa

this was on countryfile about 4 weeks ago!

the worst ive seen isnt in the peaks but in grimsby! (they beat SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY 2-0 LAST SATURDAY!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA)

the police and local residents have been complianing about scramblers and Quadbikes riding aroud the woods, so using their commen sense the police set up scouting patrols aroud the woods.

i saw two of these so called scouts about a few weeks ago. one on a scrambler and one on, guess what, you guessed it, on a Quadbike!! both takling full advantage of the wide open space; untill they saw me, of course!

this forum is a great way to gain info and others views. just registered as you might guess. the problem is my lad was 8 yesterday and ive just bought him an excellant little py 90 motorcross bike. hes never rode one before and they are notroad legal,(no lights etc) where do i let him go legally to teach him to ride it, there are a couple of tracks in sheffield that you will pay through the nose for,to go round and round but they will be full of experienced riders going dangerously fast for my lad to cope. so i thought we'll go somewhere quiet like the country .then i hear of all these people complaining about bikers etc. yes there are bound to be idiots but can anyone give me another option for somewhere to teach my lad to ride safely, i know if i saw an 8 year old lad doing 10 miles an hour on a gravel track learning to ride his dream birthday present id smile not be angry, nuff said please reply

I think it is very bizarre that someone riding a push bike on a footpath is complaining that a groups of other people are riding theirs, when the only difference is the engine. I don't know when it became acceptable to ride a push bike on a footpath but I don't find it much less acceptable than a motorbike, it still causes damage and it is still a pain when they come flying past in a group. It is just the level of damage and disruption. Footpaths should be for walkers and roads for vehicles whether with engines or not.

I've not read all this thread, but I notice the words 'consideration' and 'tolerance' cropping up.

It's funny how people advocate tolerance when they mean 'stop interfering with my inconsiderate actions'

I wonder what the farmers think about this issue? The countryside is a working environment, not a playground. I wonder what they think when due to rutted tracks they can't get their own landrover out to feed the livestock? This is why a lot of farmers get narked and block off footpaths or reroute them through fields with bulls in, or worse.

By-ways and green lanes were established long before the advent of the motor car (and most also before the bicyle, though these aren't so much of a problem) so they were not built for them. This is why they get churned up. Surely the easy solution is simply for countryside rangers to block up any tracks (with logs, locked gates?) which have become damaged until such time as they recover and can be used again?

I suspect that the non-engined methods of travel cause less distress to eg, lambing sheep and wildlife.

If a dog can be legally shot for worrying sheep....... :D

Originally posted by Mathom
I wonder what the farmers think about this issue?

Some of them rent their fields out for this sorta activity ;)

Originally posted by Skatiechik
Some of them rent their fields out for this sorta activity ;)
Of course, then you get new neighbours in who begin objecting to the noise that's been going on twice a year for over a decade and the meetings get shut down :mad:

(Mr Strix's dad organises Grasstrack bike meetings)

That gets me though, people who move out to the countryside and expect it to be utterly silent and fragrant! Organised activity on land that's willingly being used for the purpose is of course up to the landowner. So I know what you mean Strix. Maybe the people who sold to the new buyers 'conveniently forgot' to mention the bike meetings?

I just find it odd that due to a quirk in the law people can freely drive up some green lanes for sport, even if the consequences to those living nearby can be bad. I suppose the only similar urban equivalent would be living next to a car park used by petrol heads for burnouts every night.

The way I look at it is - they clse the streets of Monte Carlo for the F1 racing. And the streets of the Isle of Man for the TT. It's for the safety of the riders and the public.

I'm all for organised events, but this chav 'take what you want, and **** everybody else' society is getting too much.

Originally posted by shuggy
this forum is a great way to gain info and others views. just registered as you might guess. the problem is my lad was 8 yesterday and ive just bought him an excellant little py 90 motorcross bike. hes never rode one before and they are notroad legal,(no lights etc) where do i let him go legally to teach him to ride it, there are a couple of tracks in sheffield that you will pay through the nose for,to go round and round but they will be full of experienced riders going dangerously fast for my lad to cope. so i thought we'll go somewhere quiet like the country .then i hear of all these people complaining about bikers etc. yes there are bound to be idiots but can anyone give me another option for somewhere to teach my lad to ride safely, i know if i saw an 8 year old lad doing 10 miles an hour on a gravel track learning to ride his dream birthday present id smile not be angry, nuff said please reply

If it were me I would have done a bit of research into where I would be able to allow my lad to ride the bike before buying one. I have no qualms about people using these mini bikes, they look like great fun and I wish they'd been around when I was young. My bugbear is people who break the law and ride them where they feel like.

I would assume that any private track worth it's salt would have adequate protection for new riders from the experienced ones.

As for having to 'pay through the nose', that's the price you pay for such a hobby. I only hope you don't decide to ride it on public land. You get one warning and then the police confiscate your bike. Or, worse, be like the little lad in Ormskirk last week who lost control and rode straight into a metal portakabin. Or the one in Blackpool who was riding round the back lanes of his house and lost control and went straight into a brick wall. Both were very seriously injured.

I fail to understand why walkers seem to think that they have exclusive rights to the countryside!!!
I own a landrover and we as a family head off into the countryside to drive the legal tracks. we go as a group mainly for safty reasons if one of you breaks down you need the help. unlike walkers if they have a fall or injury they can phone for help and get air lifted to safty a back up system 4x4 drivers dont have.
we are aware of other users and have no objection to them using the tracks however we draw the line at ilegal users. eg un taxed dirt bikes, and have little time for irresponsable users either walkers 4x4s or mountain bikers.
what walkers dont seem to realise is driving into the country on these tracks is sometimes the only way that either the elderly or diaabled can access the more remote parts of the country.
this was made apparant ont he last run we went on when the leader in a freelander was in a wheelchair. the second vehicle had to open the gates and the last vehicle closed them. if not for the group or the 4x4 he would not have been able to experence such fantastic countryside.
so walkers------- before you try and stop vehicles using the tracks just think of all the tracks that you have at your disposal and have a little thought for the wheeled user who only have approx 5% of tracks available to use and dont be so selfish

Originally posted by landroverown
what walkers dont seem to realise is driving into the country on these tracks is sometimes the only way that either the elderly or diaabled can access the more remote parts of the country.
this was made apparant ont he last run we went on when the leader in a freelander was in a wheelchair. the second vehicle had to open the gates and the last vehicle closed them. if not for the group or the 4x4 he would not have been able to experence such fantastic countryside.
so walkers------- before you try and stop vehicles using the tracks just think of all the tracks that you have at your disposal and have a little thought for the wheeled user who only have approx 5% of tracks available to use and dont be so selfish

Absolute Rubbish!

I've seen these 4x4's that take the disabled out into the countryside and they're clearly marked with the Charity/organisation on the side of the vehicle.

These are not the gang of 4x4's we are disscussing and you knows it!

They also don't take the disabled bouncing across open moorland, how stupid would that be.

Leisure Motor vehicles have no place in the open countryside, it's incodsiderate and down right rude!:rant:

Originally posted by Modesty
These are not the gang of 4x4's we are disscussing and you knows it!

tell me, what 'gang' of 4x4s are we discussing exactly?

Originally posted by jackthedog
tell me, what 'gang' of 4x4s are we discussing exactly?

The fat lard arses that think it's fine to go driving a motor vehicle off public roads on the moors.
Where most people go for a bit of peace and quiet away from traffic in a busy town centre.

It's wrong wrong wrong wrong!

" Get out the way everybody I'm coming through in me big puffy van, oops squashed a small child never mind. ROLLLL ON!!! "

if its a route there allowed on then they are not breaking the law so theres nothing wrong with it in the eyes of the law

Some interesting points on this thread:
Originally posted by Phanerothyme
..That 8ft deep water filled rut along the Totley tunnel path is no joke...
Hmmm, so how big are these "bikes" and "cars" you've seen on this path that they made an "8ft deep water filled rut"...

...and did you "wake up" just after witnessing this.

:huh:


Originally posted by Modesty
" ...oops squashed a small child never mind. ROLLLL ON!!! "
So, has this particular incident been reported anywhere?

No, didn't think so.

:confused:

Looks like a bit of hysteria, the sort of nonsensical paranoia that was spouted by some landowners to justify stopping the general public from going on their land.

Seems to me, now the "ramblers" have got all the access they need, there's a bit of "drawbridge raising" going on.

As has been said, only 5% of trails are open to motorised vehicles (which they are then using totally legally), there are plenty of other places for walkers to go...

...and please don't try to pull the environmental card, come on, how do the vast majority of "ramblers" and "mountain-bikers" actually get out into the countryside, in their car...

...and because there are significantly more walkers, they manage to do far more damage to the countryside than the piffling number of off-road vehicle drivers/riders on the relatively small amount of "roads" they're allowed to use.

There's a thought, if the 4x4s and trail bikes weren't all forced onto such a limited number of "roads" the erosion wouldn't be so bad, after all, that's how conservationists regularly protect national parks, spread the area of use, so as to allow the paths time to recover.

There, great idea folks, more "roads" for off-roaders would benefit everyone, thanks for helping figure that out.

;)

Originally posted by foo_fighter

...and please don't try to pull the environmental card, come on,

;)

No enviromental issues from me, I just don't want to be intimidated into not taking the family and the dog on the moors because you want to take your big gay car up there!

The bottom line for me is, people should be able to do what they want but when it's at the expense of other folk that's just wrong.

What's the big deal anyway, you've still got a lifetimes worth of tarmac, " oh but mummy I want to take it up that hill I've got a big winch up front ":cry:

I personally think it's just people trying to justify owning a big 4x4 that does little more than the school run in a morning.

Originally posted by KenH
I think it is very bizarre that someone riding a push bike on a footpath is complaining that a groups of other people are riding theirs, when the only difference is the engine. I don't know when it became acceptable to ride a push bike on a footpath but I don't find it much less acceptable than a motorbike, it still causes damage and it is still a pain when they come flying past in a group. It is just the level of damage and disruption. Footpaths should be for walkers and roads for vehicles whether with engines or not.
I find this ridiculous!Motor bikes are so noisy,and if in the worst case scenario they did plough into a walker, they are considerably heavier, therefore more likely to do considerable damage. I used to live in Hunters Bar, and every weekend I would cycle up through Endcliff park,through Porter Valley up to Ringinglow,up and over to Burbage, go through burbage,up to Fox House and back over what I've always called the Roman Rd-is that Houndkirk/ lady cannings? which brings you back to Ringinglow, then either go straight down Ringinglow rd back to Hunters Bar, or go through Lymb valley and Ecclesall woods to Mum and Dads.I found this fantastic, challenging exercise, but also incredibly theraputic, and I'd be in an a kind of meditive state the whole ride.My mountain bike was part of me!
I often got stick from mardy walkers.I dont know, or care if I was aloud on the routes I was using.I always slowed right down to pass walkers,was always polite, and said excuse me,as not to startle them with my sudden pressence.I don't see how I was doing any more harm than walkers or pushchairs.I also don't have a problem with responsible cyclists on the pavement, as it is just too dangerous on the roads to use cycling as a mode of transport.
Now I live in the countryside with three young children, and rarely get chance for such blissful solitude.I guess it comes down to live and let live , but this ideal depends upon the resposible individual, and unfortunately their are a lot of w**kers out their.(not walkers by the way!!)

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Some interesting points on this thread:

Hmmm, so how big are these "bikes" and "cars" you've seen on this path that they made an "8ft deep water filled rut"...

;)

Forgive my confusing statement.

Had I stood in the rut, the edges of the path would have been well above my head. This was late last year.

We stood on the foot path that had been trodden around the edge of the rut, looking down into the ochre water, as four or five muddy trial bikes came puttering through.

Hesitatingly and with much revving they went through one by one, with water lapping at the saddles. Duly, the last motorcycle died mid-rut and was wheeled out and restarted with a hoarse splutter and a few select profanities as the others rasped off laughing.

Next time I'm up there I'll snap a pic of it for you....

DO you have any contribution to make along these lines maybe?
Originally posted by Phanerothyme
How can you get away from noise and fumes on top of a running motorbike?
...
I think nice clear guidelines would help so that everyone knows what to expect when they choose a path.

OK, already answered both Phan' and Modesty's questions here
Originally posted by foo_fighter
...As has been said, only 5% of trails are open to motorised vehicles (which they are then using totally legally), there are plenty of other places for walkers to go...
as have lots of people.

Add to this that, with "right to roam" you have access to vast areas of land on foot that aren't even classed as paths or trails, and it shouldn't be too difficult to find a bit of solitude. I manage it all the time.


Additionally, some interesting points raised here
Originally posted by Modesty
...I just don't want to be intimidated into not taking the family and the dog on the moors because you want to take your big gay car up there!...
i) Did you realise that a lot of people are very worried what effect your "little pooch" has on farm livestock in the countryside, why don't you stick to urban parks with "the animal" and kids? You might be breaking the law letting the dog off the leash, something the "green-laners" aren't doing.

ii) "big gay car" oh come-on please, grow up!

I have absolutely no problem with people using off road vehicles so long as its done responsibly. Given that it is so destructive, then it HAS to be managed very effectively and done in areas where constant repair work is done to the trails. Anyway, I would much rather see 4x4 used off road than ferrying precious little kids to school.

(To KenH I think you need to think about this a bit before you compare push bikes and scramblers and the non-comparible damage they do - Im not sure no matter how hard I pedal, that I'd be able to make the same amount of noise on my mountain bike :loopy: )

I think that some byways need to be downgraded, specifically the trail going over stanage edge. As we now see happening with mountain biking (seven stains etc), specific trails need to be built for these sports so that they can be enjoyed by people in a responsible manner. Its not just a question of conflict of interest, its a question of preservation of these areas of natural beauty for future generations. People cannot be trusted to do this without some kind of governance.

Originally posted by Modesty
The fat lard arses that think it's fine to go driving a motor vehicle off public roads on the moors.
Where most people go for a bit of peace and quiet away from traffic in a busy town centre.

It's wrong wrong wrong wrong!

I'd say that needs re-phrasing to read "People who are well within their rights to drive their motor vehicles on public roads on the moors.

Originally posted by Modesty
bottom line for me is, people should be able to do what they want but when it's at the expense of other folk that's just wrong.

Should we outlaw everything that might upset someone?

Dogs - I find them unpleasant. They use the street as a toilet. Can we ban them?

Football - causes so much disruption and costs so much money to police. Can we ban that please?

You cant please everyone all the time. You cant expect to have everything your own way throughout your life. We live in a small country and we will come into contact with things we do not like. Learn to live with it.



As stated often throughout this thread, and a point you seem to be consistently ignoring, is that vehiclular rights of way count for under 5% of all the rights of way in the country.

So there is plenty of countryside (95% or more, in fact) exclusively for people on foot.

Why not simply avoid the tiny number of vehicular rights of way that exist around the area, thus never coming into contact with motorised vehicles?


Originally posted by Modesty
I personally think it's just people trying to justify owning a big 4x4 that does little more than the school run in a morning.

People who choose to use a 4x4 for the school run probably won't feel the need to justify their choice of car, and will continue to use it for whatever purpose they see fit.

You'll notice, as do I when I'm out in the countryside and come across off-roaders (a rare occurance, I'd like to add, due to the lack of access they have) that they aren't driving the same sort of shiney 4x4s that you see around town.
It's a different bunch of people entirely.


As foo_fighter said:
now the "ramblers" have got all the access they need, there's a bit of "drawbridge raising" going on

it hits the nail on the head.
It's the "I'm alright Jack" attitude perfectly personified, and it scares me to death.

These sports should be allowed but as I said they need to be governed. When were these routes made to be byways? I'm not sure they were ever intended to be for the kind of heavy off road vehicle use that we are starting to see. These vehicles do cause significant damage and as these sports become more popular it may be required to change the rights of way to take account of this increase. Its not a case of stopping the use of these vehicles, just restricting it to areas where damage will be kept to a minimum through management of use/repair.

Originally posted by jackthedog

You'll notice, as do I when I'm out in the countryside and come across off-roaders (a rare occurance, I'd like to add, due to the lack of access they have) that they aren't driving the same sort of shiney 4x4s that you see around town.
It's a different bunch of people entirely.


As foo_fighter said:

now the "ramblers" have got all the access they need, there's a bit of "drawbridge raising" going on

it hits the nail on the head.
It's the "I'm alright Jack" attitude perfectly personified

Nicely put, saves me the hassle :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Modesty
The bottom line for me is, people should be able to do what they want but when it's at the expense of other folk that's just wrong.


You're saying that you want to walk, but that 4x4s and bikes should not be allowed, so arn't you doing what you want at the expense of the 4x4 drivers ?

Why do you have more right to be there than they do ?

As for the bit about ramblers "setting traps" for cars and bikes, thats just sick and twisted.

Originally posted by nick2
You're saying that you want to walk, but that 4x4s and bikes should not be allowed, so arn't you doing what you want at the expense of the 4x4 drivers ?

Why do you have more right to be there than they do ?

As for the bit about ramblers "setting traps" for cars and bikes, thats just sick and twisted.

Jeez, if I wanted to run to the nearest natural habitat and torch it all with petrol should I be allowed to do that? Stupid example but the point is walking causes a lot less damage than off road vehicles. Off roading therefore needs much more stringent control! Is it that hard to comprehend?

Originally posted by TimmyR
Jeez, if I wanted to run to the nearest natural habitat and torch it all with petrol should I be allowed to do that? Stupid example but the point is walking causes a lot less damage than off road vehicles. Off roading therefore needs much more stringent control! Is it that hard to comprehend?

I agree, it's a stupid example.

So if offroading was more controlled would all the ramblers be happy then ? off course not, it's someone else trying to use "their" countryside.

Offroading might cause more damage but rambling causes a fair amount too.

Originally posted by nick2
I agree, it's a stupid example.

So if offroading was more controlled would all the ramblers be happy then ? off course not, it's someone else trying to use "their" countryside.

Offroading might cause more damage but rambling causes a fair amount too.

I, as a mountain biker, am very much on the receiving end of rambler disgruntlement so I am more than aware that there are the "grumpy" ones out there. But the question is, is off roading controlled enough? I'm not so sure it is. The vast rutts that appear on various tracks in the more sensitive areas of the peaks demonstrate this.

Originally posted by TimmyR
...but the point is walking causes a lot less damage than off road vehicles. Off roading therefore needs much more stringent control! Is it that hard to comprehend?
An individual walker causes less damage than an individual vehicle, granted...

...but there are many more walkers, damaging much more countryside, and not just the trails and paths that are on maps (right to roam)...

...the vehicles already have much more stringent controls, to just 5% of available trails.

Plus the vehicle user is the only one that can be held "accountable", they display a registration plate...

...how do you trace a walker or mountain biker that leaves a gate open, or lights a "camp fire" in a stupid place?

:suspect:

So if the 4x4's and motor bikes WERE more stictly controlled would everyone be happy ?

Or is it a case of "I'm NOT sharing the countryside, full stop" ?

Originally posted by nick2
As for the bit about ramblers "setting traps" for cars and bikes, thats just sick and twisted.

Piano wire strung across trails at neck height is something mountainbikers have had to contend with for a while.
Laying logs across tracks used by cyclists is also commonplace.

Barbed wire strung between trees on Bridleways has been reported fairly recently on Beeley Moor.

A couple of months ago, a crudely constucted steel spike-trap was laid under a muddy puddle across the entire width of a legal byway just outside Hope, to puncture the tyres of any vehicles that used it.

It was spotted by a horse rider who moved it, reported it to the police, and by the time the police got up to it, it had been laid back in place.
A day after the device had been confiscated and destroyed, the mountain rescue Land Rover had to use the trail to get to an emergency.

Imagine if it had not been discovered when it had - the mountain rescue vehicle would have been immobilised on the moorland with four flat tyres, and no way of reaching the casuality (a rambler, in all probability...)

Nice.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
An individual walker causes less damage than an individual vehicle, granted...

...but there are many more walkers, damaging much more countryside, and not just the trails and paths that are on maps (right to roam)...

...the vehicles already have much more stringent controls, to just 5% of available trails.

Plus the vehicle user is the only one that can be held "accountable", they display a registration plate...

...how do you trace a walker or mountain biker that leaves a gate open, or lights a "camp fire" in a stupid place?

:suspect:

I am simply of the opinion that some of the trails open to off road vehicle use, should not be. And on the other hand there are many trails that aren't that could well be opened to this kind of use. These sports need bespoke trails designed which are regularly maintained as we now see happening with mountain biking.

Originally posted by TimmyR
I, as a mountain biker, am very much on the receiving end of rambler disgruntlement so I am more than aware that there are the "grumpy" ones out there. But the question is, is off roading controlled enough? I'm not so sure it is. The vast rutts that appear on various tracks in the more sensitive areas of the peaks demonstrate this.


Dont overlook the fact that a large contibution to the trail errosion caused by motor vehicles is actually the result of tractors and other agricultural vehicles used by the land owners to work the land. This will continue whether 4x4s and trailbikes are banned or not.

Originally posted by nick2
So if the 4x4's and motor bikes WERE more stictly controlled would everyone be happy ?

I very much doubt it. As soon as one goal is acheived, attention has to be turned somewhere. Possibly in the direction of mountainbikers and horse riders...

Originally posted by jackthedog
Piano wire strung across trails at neck height is something mountainbikers have had to contend with for a while.
Laying logs across tracks used by cyclists is also commonplace.

Barbed wire strung between trees on Bridleways has been reported fairly recently on Beeley Moor.

A couple of months ago, a crudely constucted steel spike-trap was laid under a muddy puddle across the entire width of a legal byway just outside Hope, to puncture the tyres of any vehicles that used it.

Nice.

Is that fo real, or hearsay ?

Originally posted by venger
Is that fo real, or hearsay ?
Well I hope it's not "HearSay"....

...they were awful.



;) :D

Originally posted by venger
Is that fo real, or hearsay ?

The piano wire was personal experience, in Wharncliffe forest about 5 years back. Luckily downhill riders tend to push up the trail they ride before coming down at high speed.

Logs across tracks - That's always been the case. I came across quite a few newly-placed ones whilst riding last weekend.

The barbed wire on Beeley Moor was reported a couple of weeks ago.

The spike trap on Bamford Moor was well documented. I'll try and find it for you. Head up there and you'll see the earth mounds that were built up on either side of the puddle to ensure every single trail user was forced to go through the puddle concealing the trap.

Trail users of all kinds are on high alert at the minute.

Originally posted by jackthedog
The piano wire was personal experience, in Wharncliffe forest about 5 years back. Luckily downhill riders tend to push up the trail they ride before coming down at high speed.

Logs across tracks - That's always been the case. I came across quite a few newly-placed ones whilst riding last weekend.

The barbed wire on Beeley Moor was reported a couple of weeks ago.

The spike trap on Bamford Moor was well documented. I'll try and find it for you. Head up there and you'll see the earth mounds that were built up on either side of the puddle to ensure every single trail user was forced to go through the puddle concealing the trap.

Trail users of all kinds are on high alert at the minute.

They should be hanged by the very piano wire they set up! I've never seen this, but will be on the look out.

Tim

Perhaps there is a business opportunity here for an off-road course in the area? These kind of places exist for corporate events like paintballing and hovercrafting.

That way the 4x4 owners can really thrash their cars down tracks without worrying about encountering walkers.

Originally posted by alchresearch
Perhaps there is a business opportunity here for an off-road course in the area? These kind of places exist for corporate events like paintballing and hovercrafting.

That way the 4x4 owners can really thrash their cars down tracks without worrying about encountering walkers.

I like that idea. And such places do exist.
Unfortunately they are crippled by:

Stratospherically expensive insurance costs
Outrageously over-the-top health and safety regulations brought about by the ever-growing compensation culture
Local residents who dont like muddy 4x4 vehicles and dirt bikes driving through their villages to and from the site
Local residents who dont like noise, pollution and extra traffic in their countryside
Ramblers who dont like the fact that areas of the countryside are closed off to them

Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

I seem to remember some years ago the ramblers assosiation doing a mass trespass. 99.9% of 4x4 drivers only drive legitimate vehicular rights of way, often these righis of way are illigaly blocked by rambelers. Now who is breaking the law, not the 4x4 drivers.

Originally posted by mad_hatter
I seem to remember some years ago the ramblers assosiation doing a mass trespass. 99.9% of 4x4 drivers only drive legitimate vehicular rights of way, often these righis of way are illigaly blocked by rambelers. Now who is breaking the law, not the 4x4 drivers.

It never was a question of breaking the law tho, more whether the laws were good enough. And to be honest i can't see groups of middle aged ramblers dragging logs onto public byways to block them! Seems rather unlikely if you ask me.

Originally posted by alchresearch
Perhaps there is a business opportunity here for an off-road course in the area? These kind of places exist for corporate events like paintballing and hovercrafting.

That way the 4x4 owners can really thrash their cars down tracks without worrying about encountering walkers.
Conversely, someone could buy an area of land, and not let vehicles use it, then it would be a quiet area just for people to stroll around, let their kids run and play, and even let the dog have a gambol...

...oh, they already have, they're called parks and Sheffield is blessed with lots of them.

Why not use these parks, and let law abiding "green lane" users get on with it, on the tiny amount of space that's still available to them.

:|

Originally posted by foo_fighter
"big gay car" oh come-on please, grow up!

That's rich coming from someone who likes to play with big tonka trucks.

Oh and for the record our dog is a trained border and hearding sheep is her profesion.

Other dogs not under control now that's a all other thread.

Now why don't you Grow up and take your big gay car on the roads like a good boy!

P.s . you going to the foos in Manchester?

Originally posted by Modesty
Now why don't you Grow up and take your big gay car on the roads like a good boy!

Why don't you just beat him up in the playground after double maths ?

Originally posted by nick2
Why don't you just beat him up in the playground after double maths ?

Only if he don't bring his big gay car with him.

i would imagine that the areas of use are quite specific for cars & easily checked by rangers. i am surprised at the numbe rof scramble bikes & mountain bikers however who think they can stiil go any where they want.

i've never experienced any "green laners" but that could just be lucky.seen lots of mb's flying around expecting people to move out the way for them.

Great argument Modesty, well put. You've won the thread.

Originally posted by Modesty
That's rich coming from someone who likes to play with big tonka trucks...

...Now why don't you Grow up and take your big gay car on the roads like a good boy!
:rolleyes:

Now, look back through the thread, and see if I say anything about me "green-laning" in a 4x4 (or at all)...

...now you'll note that I always say "they"...

...now, please take your preconceptions back to the park, with your "ickle dawgie" and children (where they belong), and stop hassling people legally participating in their hobby.

:loopy:

no matter if it's legal or not - in my opinion driving 4X4s and motocrossers in the crowded peaks is simply a totally anti-social activity.. For the enjoyment of a select few, the experience of the countryside is tainted for <b>everyone </b> else, be it the noise, smell, erosion, or whatever.. and you can't say the same about walking, mountain biking or horse-riding.

i know this is not really related but any idea why walkers & mountain bikers are they only ones allowed to use certain country "parks" not country side ,free of charge.?

Originally posted by bielby
...For the enjoyment of a select few, the experience of the countryside is tainted for <b>everyone </b> else, be it the noise, smell, erosion, or whatever...
By "everyone", I take it you mean the "everyone" that happens to be on the 5% of trails that off-roaders can use...

...not the "everyone" who is on the other 95%, or even the "everyone" who is off a trail, where motor vehicles can't go.

:confused:

Originally posted by foo_fighter

...now you'll note that I always say "they"...



Ooops, sorry I hav'nt been doing this forum buisiness as long as you.
But what do you expect me to think when your posts on the matter are so passionate for the 4X4's.

Clever though.

Anyway I win the thread as Jackthedog said, did'nt realise it was a game.

Originally posted by bielby
no matter if it's legal or not - in my opinion driving 4X4s and motocrossers in the crowded peaks is simply a totally anti-social activity.. For the enjoyment of a select few, the experience of the countryside is tainted for <b>everyone </b> else, be it the noise, smell, erosion, or whatever.. and you can't say the same about walking, mountain biking or horse-riding.

I think this guy say's what I want to say in a more mature fashion.
Well done fella!:clap:

Originally posted by Modesty

But what do you expect me to think when your posts on the matter are so passionate for the 4X4's.

He's not coming across as very passionate for 4x4s. Rather defending people's right to do what they are legally allowed to do.


Originally posted by Modesty
I think this guy sat's what I want to say in more mature fashion.

Okay, good. So can we focus our attention on that now, and dismiss your unwelcome childish name-calling?

Originally posted by Modesty
Ooops, sorry I hav'nt been doing this forum buisiness as long as you...
No, you've been here longer...

...I joined Nov 2004, you joined Aug 2004.

;)

Originally posted by Modesty
...But what do you expect me to think when your posts on the matter are so passionate for the 4X4's....
It would be nice if you had thought about being pleasant, and joined in the discussion, rather than using silly inflammatory remarks...

...I do defend peoples rights to access the countryside, and feel I should "air" my opinions, it's that simple really...

...you are of course free to do the same, I respect all views stated on the forum (but obviously don't necessarily agree), it's just it's easier to "chat" without people being provocative for the sake of it.

Anyway, back to the "thrust" of the thread for both of us...

:)

Originally posted by jackthedog
Okay, good. So can we focus our attention on that now, and dismiss your unwelcome childish name-calling?

Ok I'll hold my hand up and say that I've been contributing to this thread in a childish way.

But it is completely contrived as I feel I'm talking at the level of these 4x4's and scramble bikers.

Originally posted by Modesty
I feel I'm talking at the level of these 4x4's and scramble bikers.

Why?

Originally posted by Modesty
Ok I'll hold my hand up and say that I've been contributing to this thread in a childish way.

But it is completely contrived as I feel I'm talking at the level of these 4x4's and scramble bikers.

You've just done it again.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
It would be nice if you had thought about being pleasant, and joined in the discussion, rather than using silly inflammatory remarks...

Oh come on if they were that bad the mods would have pulled me ages ago.

I was just being silly, you never watched Tiswas as a kid.

Anyway consider my hands smacked.

Serious head on.

Originally posted by nick2
You've just done it again.

Done what again?

You're messing with my head.

This thread has descended into tripe.

Originally posted by jackthedog
This thread has descended into tripe.

Does that mean your going to take your big.... car back and play else where then...?

Originally posted by Modesty
Does that mean your going to take your big.... car back and play else where then...?

It means I'm going to dismiss childish posts and contribute further when someone comes on who has valid points.

no matter if it's legal or not - driving 4X4s and motocrossers in the crowded peaks is simply a totally anti-social activity.. For the enjoyment of a select few, the experience of the countryside is tainted for everyone else, be it the noise, smell, erosion, or whatever.. and you can't say the same about walking, mountain biking or horse-riding.

posted by bielby

Yes, we got that the first time. You quote that like it's the bottom line of the argument.

Go back up the thread and read foo_fighter's reply to that original post.

EDIT:

Here, I'll save you the hassle.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
By "everyone", I take it you mean the "everyone" that happens to be on the 5% of trails that off-roaders can use...

...not the "everyone" who is on the other 95%, or even the "everyone" who is off a trail, where motor vehicles can't go.

:confused:

For me it is the bottom line of the argument, that's how I feel.

No motor leisure vehicles on the moors full stop!

Sometimes when we have elderly relatives or small children visiting, we can't go hiking on the high peaks so a trip up to Stanedge poll is just the ticket.

But recently like the thread is suggesting they're is an increase in heavy traffic up there.

I suppose to be fair it's quite easy to avoid the 4x4's but the scamble bikes now tear everywhere and quite often along Stanedge.
Surely that's not legal?

I still don't agree that people should change a route or move out of the way of 4x4's though.
That's just how I feel.

Why or whoever ( got to be careful ) feel the need to take motor vehicles off the road anyhow.
They just don't have any concept off other peoples space.

I just think it's rude, completely one sided I know but it just feels right to me.

Originally posted by Modesty
For me it is the bottom line of the argument, that's how I feel.

No motor vehicles on the moors full stop!


I just think it's rude, completely one sided I know but it just feels right to me.

But would support the laying of traps, logs, piano wire etc, the deliberate attempts to hurt people or damage cars (that could be rescue vehicles) and bikes ?

Originally posted by nick2
But would support the laying of traps, logs, piano wire etc, the deliberate attempts to hurt people or damage cars (that could be rescue vehicles) and bikes ?

I don't fully understand what you're saying here.

But I should have used the words leisure motor vehicles like an earlier post of mine.

I have never said anything about laying traps and I would'nt advise anyone to do such a stupid and vicious thing.

I have never personally seen such traps and never heard anyone talk about them untill this thread.

It seems to be one of the 4x4 scramberling bikers main points though.

Never seen an incident on the news either?

Originally posted by Modesty
For me it is the bottom line of the argument, that's how I feel.

No motor vehicles on the moors full stop!

Sometimes when we have elderly relatives or small children visiting, we can't go hiking on the high peaks so a trip up to Stanedge poll is just the ticket.

But recently like the thread is suggesting they're is an increase in heavy traffic up there.

I suppose to be fair it's quite easy to avoid the 4x4's but the scamble bikes now tear everywhere and quite often along Stanedge.
Surely that's not legal?

I still don't agree that people should change a route or move out of the way of 4x4's though.
That's just how I feel.

Why or whoever ( got to be careful ) feel the need to take motor vehicles off the road anyhow.
They just don't have any concept off other peoples space.

I just think it's rude, completely one sided I know but it just feels right to me.

You cant question the reasoning behind why people do what they do. They just like some things, and you dont.

Many people cant see the point in going out for a walk in the country and would consider it a waste of time. But you enjoy it, so why does their opinion on the validity of your past time matter?

You dont feel that you should have to change a route to avoid 4x4s (something that is not difficult to do, as you yourself admits) - so by that same token, why should a sport enjoyed by thousands be outlawed because others dont like it?


Bear in mind also, that the scramble bikes which tear around the countryside ignoring the laws regarding rights of way have very little care for the law as it stands, so will continue to do it even if byways are closed.

As you say, it's already illegal to ride a motorcycle along the top of Stanage. So a law already stands in place to try and stop that.
Closing byways will not affect those who dont stick to byways.

Off-roading and trail biking are sports enjoyed by many responsible, mature people throughout the UK. They will be the ones who suffer when the byways are closed.

Originally posted by Modesty
I have never personally seen such traps and never heard anyone talk about them untill this thread.

It seems to be one of the 4x4 scramberling bikers main points though.

Never seen an incident on the news either?

No, it won't make the news until someone gets seriously injured or killed, unfortunately.

And I (as a mountain biker, having long been on the recieving end of things) am the only one to point out trail sabotage. So it's not really 'one of the 4x4 scramberling bikers main points' -rather an illustration of the extreme end of the debate we are currently having, and the total intollerance of other people that is often displayed in the countryside.

Originally posted by jackthedog
You dont feel that you should have to change a route to avoid 4x4s (something that is not difficult to do, as you yourself admits)


Sorry for being petty but I have to defend myself - like I said changing a route for the inlaws, grandparents and kids would be difficult.

You're right though the offroaders will suffer if the bylaws are closed but it's not the end of the world is it.

They'll still have a big car to play with, just not on the moors.

Originally posted by Modesty
...No motor leisure vehicles on the moors full stop!

Sometimes when we have elderly relatives or small children visiting, we can't go hiking on the high peaks so a trip up to Stanedge poll is just the ticket.

But recently like the thread is suggesting they're is an increase in heavy traffic up there....
Well, i think not allowing any motorvehicles on the moors is an extreme solution, but at least you've said what you feel.

:(

This next bit is meant to be helpful, please take it as such...

...the next time you fancy a walk, as described above, rather than following the "green lane" (clearly marked on the maps) up to "Stanedge Pole", why not stop the car a bit earlier on Redmires Rd, adjacent to the top dam a nice flat footpath follows the "conduit" to “White Rake”, and vehicles aren't allowed to use it, you can either then backtrack at the end, or turn left, and follow (an admittedly more undulating, but no worse than the road up to "the pole") path back to the next car-park / picnic area...

...alternatively, stop even earlier at the top of "Wyming Brook", you can follow down at the side of the brook, then take a leisurely walk back up the hill on the (old) forestry road (now closed to vehicular traffic).

Both of these are lovely walks, and guaranteed vehicle free (well, unless it's a working vehicle, but I've never seen one there).

Good luck.

:)

Originally posted by Modesty
Sorry for being petty but I have to defend myself - like I said changing a route for the inlaws, grandparents and kids would be difficult.

You're right though the offroaders will suffer if the bylaws are closed but it's not the end of the world is it.

They'll still have a big car to play with, just not on the moors.

You're right. It's not the end of the world.
It's the end of a hobby/past time enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country.

We're talking all the trail bikers and all the off-road 4x4 enthusiasts throughout the country no longer being able to take part in their passion/hobby/whatever.

Banning football wouldn't be the end of the world, but it'd certainly cause outrage.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
...alternatively, stop even earlier at the top of "Wyming Brook", you can follow down at the side of the brook, then take a leisurely walk back up the hill on the (old) forestry road (now closed to vehicular traffic).

Interestingly, Wyming Brook used to be a Byway Open to All Traffic, but has been downgraded in recent years (maybe in the the last decade) and fenced off at both ends to stop vehicles using the track.

Same thing applies to many tracks in Derbyshire and Yorkshire.

I'll have to leave this one for today got to go pick the kids up.

In the discovery obviously;)

Originally posted by jackthedog
Interestingly, Wyming Brook used to by a Byway Open to All Traffic, but has been downgraded in recent years (maybe in the last decade) and fenced off at both ends to stop vehicles using the track.

Same thing applies to many tracks in Derbyshire and Yorkshire.
It was about 4-5 years ago...

...and not because of trouble with off-road vehicles, but because "people" were fly tipping up there a lot, or abandoning stolen (normal) vehicles, and torching them. Yes, the "roads" really were smooth enough back then to drive any vehicle down, the disabled used to gain better access down those "roads", but alas, no more.

Ahhh, there's progress for you (and the effect thieving fly-tipping scum can have on the countryside).

:(

Originally posted by Modesty
Ok I'll hold my hand up and say that I've been contributing to this thread in a childish way.

But it is completely contrived as I feel I'm talking at the level of these 4x4's and scramble bikers.

Well Modesty

You obviously want to tar all 4x4 drivers with the same brush. We could say that you are being very childish with this post sugesting that all 4x4 drivers are childish. All the people using the legal byways want to do is enjoy there passtime. I agree that if pedestrians are encounted on these roads then you should be polite and give all the room they need, there are a few who like to harass people and belive that they have the right to do so, but if you come across these type of road users you can always take there registration number and report it to the police.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
By "everyone", I take it you mean the "everyone" that happens to be on the 5% of trails that off-roaders can use...

...not the "everyone" who is on the other 95%, or even the "everyone" who is off a trail, where motor vehicles can't go.

:confused:

fair point..

but the byways 4x4s and motocrossers use are often the most popular routes for all other users tho - my main argument is that the peaks are under alot of pressure form all kinds of activities, and unfortunately (for the people who choose to do it) off-roading has a much greater impact on those trails than anything else. When there is that sort of heavy usage, by everyone, we should stop the most damaging activity first - and no prizes for guessing what that is.
I don't think the actual environmental damage is really the issue here, it'll easily be less than the all the pollution spewed out by cars carrying walkers and mountian bikes, it's just when you drive across popular trails, with all the noise and trail damage, you're doing an inherently anti-social activity, just as if you were revving up and down your street, throwing litter out of your car or your rubbish out on the street

Originally posted by bielby
fair point..

but the byways 4x4s and motocrossers use are often the most popular routes for all other users tho - off-roading has a much greater impact on those trails than anything else. When there is that sort of heavy usage, by everyone, we should stop the most damaging activity first - and no prizes for guessing what that is.


Bielby
If you actually speak to the Peak Park Rangers the most damaging to paths and the area around them it is actually mountain bikes.
This activity damages paths and areas that can not easily be reachd to be repaired.
So you have therefore lost you prize, bad luck.

Originally posted by Modesty
I'll have to leave this one for today got to go pick the kids up.

In the discoverey obviously;)

Modesty

obviously you have never been near a Land Rover Discovery or you would know how to spell it.

Originally posted by mad_hatter
Modesty

obviously you have never been near a Land Rover Discovery or you would know how to spell it.

Ahhh the old spelling and literacy attack, he shoots he scores the crowd cheer.
" their's only one Mad-Hatter only one Maaaad-Hatter!

Originally posted by bielby
...but the byways 4x4s and motocrossers use are often the most popular routes for all other users tho - my main argument is that the peaks are under alot of pressure form all kinds of activities, and unfortunately (for the people who choose to do it) off-roading has a much greater impact on those trails than anything else...
As far as I can see, the main 2 routes people are complaining about are: the "green lane" to Stanedge Pole; the "green lane" from Ringinglow to Fox House, and the reasons behind this are probably interesting,

i) Easily accessed by walkers by car and easy adjacent parking, means lots of people see this damage

ii) Well known, and used by "off-roaders", so greater than usual use/damage


If you were to go "further-afield" you would indeed (as mad_hatter has said) experience lots of damage done by mountain bikes, and general over walking of certain trails...

...and you would also probably see the very occasional responsible "off-roader" passing by on a "road" most people don't even know exists, leaving very little "damage" in their wake.

"Off roaders" just like walkers, cyclists and horse riders are not damaging the whole network they have access to, but a few cases can be sited of damage by any of these user groups.

The crucial question to me is, do we want to ban an entire sport/pastime, so that "ramblers" can have unlimited access to not just the 95% of trails (and 100% of other land) that they currently enjoy, but monopolise the other 5% (of trails) as-well?...

...and the answer to me is no.

Live and let live, there are plenty of options out there, especially for us residents of Sheffield.

:)

I havent had time to read through the whole of the thread, so apologies if I repeat anything already said.

It's easy to slate trail bikers and 4x4 drivers - but in my mind mountain bikers are no better. The majority of cyclists come into the Peaks riding 3 wide, blocking the roads, making it extremely difficult to get past (road tax anyone??....) and they very rarely slow down to pass pedestrians on footpaths/bridleways. The amount of times I've been walking the dog and nearly been hit by a cyclist is a little too high for my liking.

I have a perfect solution to keep the peak district tranquil and beautiful - keep ALL the bloody tourists out! [insert semi-ironic but increasingly tempted smilie]

I take part in the following activities in the Peak District:-

Hill/Mountain walking
Mountain biking
driving my LandRover on unsurfaced roads

The only thing I don't do is ride a horse (and that's because I'm frightened to death of the things - mind of their own...!)

There is a great deal of confusion around various rights of way which doesn't help an already emotional and controvertial debate.

Just to clarify, the track from Redmires to Stanedge Pole is a Byway Open to All Traffic (BOAT). BOATs are defined on OS Maps as -+-+-+- and are legally defined by the local highway authority on something called the Definitive Map. You can view the Definitive Map at the council offices.

Vehicles on BOATs must obey the same traffic laws as on a normal road - you must be taxed, licenced, insured, MOTed etc. Driving dangerously is an offence, driving wthout a licence is an offence, driving a non-road legal vehicle is an offence.

The track from Stanedge Pole down to the car park (along the Edge for part of its length) is a UnClassified Road (UCR) or Other Route with Public Access (ORPA), shown on OS maps as red dots. It is defined legally by the highway authority (Derbyshire County Council) on their List of Streets - this again can be viewed at their offices and states all Streets adopted by the council.

Normal road traffic law applies on this section too.

There are associations whose aim is to promote sustainable use, by motorised vehicles, of these routes, encouraging their members to be considerate. They also campaign against the blanket bans and prejudical opinions of other lobby groups.

The Green Lane Association (GLASS) and The Trail Riders Fellowship (TRF) are the two main organisations - I can tell you that their members are just as exasperated with those who choose to ride/drive routes with no legal rights or those who choose to seriously damage tracks and land.

They are also exasperated with the lack of enforcement of EXISTING laws. For example, it is illegal to ride a motorbike along a bridleway, but many people complain of such action without very much being done.

Their websites are worth a look as they seem balanced in their views:-

http://www.glass-uk.org/

http://www.trf.org.uk/

How can you get away from noise and fumes on top of a running motorbike?

That 8ft deep water filled rut along the Totley tunnel path is no joke.

I think nice clear guidelines would help so that everyone knows what to expect when they choose a path.

That way walkers could choose paths away from MTBs and trials bikes and vice versa

Those elusive guidelines you seek do exist.........and have done so for a while!
They're called maps. Try reading one :rolleyes:

Ahhh the old spelling and literacy attack, he shoots he scores the crowd cheer.
" their's only one Mad-Hatter only one Maaaad-Hatter!

Well, it's good to see that a pre-schooler can pick up enough IT skills to contribute to the Forum, even if he does make himself look an utter buffoon.

I have ridden off-road for a number of years and come across all sorts of attitudes that just don’t help, from both sides. The group I rode with were always meticulous in planning routes to ensure we were on trails that could legally be driven on. Sadly, I know that some (a minority but still too many) off-road riders do stray knowingly onto tracks that they shouldn’t use, which really does ruin it for everyone else. Also, I have had a go at other riders often enough when they’ve either torn past walkers and covered them in spray, or failed to stop to allow horses to pass.

I, and the crowd I ride with, also would stop for walkers if it was a narrow path so that they could pass without danger or being splashed. Applying common courtesy like this would usually result in a pleasant exchange of good morning greetings, but there were many occasions when the ramblers would just use it as an opportunity to launch into a tirade of abuse. Interestingly, these ‘ramblers’ were never the real country folk, they were always the sad city-dwelling types who’d just kitted themselves up with a variety of brightly-coloured and largely unnecessary trimmings from CCCs so that they could treat their 2 hour bimble as a polar expedition.

I have come across wire drawn across the trails, branches positioned in such a way as to present a spike at face level when a bike comes round a corner, piles of logs or stones round corners (thanks for those, they usually make for good obstacles), ramblers physically blocking the path, swinging their walking sticks at us and on occasion ramblers who have spat at us.

All of this abuse, at the hands of ramblers, while using the countryside responsibly, with consideration for other users, and totally legally. And remember the important ratio that other posters have mentioned – we (most of us at any rate) only use 5% of the trails out there that are classed as roads, and do not (because it’s illegal) use the other 95%.

If ramblers don’t like walking on roads with motor vehicles, they can use the other 95% of paths in the Peak District that we can’t use, or they can share the ones that are legally classed as roads with us.

That said, I stopped riding off-road. The spitting, trap-setting ramblers won because I knew that I was close to snapping the next time I received abuse from one of them, and I wasn’t willing to risk the legal consequences should that happen.

Those elusive guidelines you seek do exist.........and have done so for a while!
They're called maps. Try reading one :rolleyes:

Keep rolling those eyes, you might even end up with them both facing the same direction at some point, enabling you to read a map and contribute instead of pointlessly sniping.

It's a bridleway - which to me says horses, bicycles and foot traffic, but not motorized vehicles. However it's less than clear....to the people motorcycling over it. No signs saying "motorcycles not permitted" for example.

Keep rolling those eyes, you might even end up with them both facing the same direction at some point, enabling you to read a map and contribute instead of pointlessly sniping.

It's a bridleway - which to me says horses, bicycles and foot traffic, but not motorized vehicles. However it's less than clear....to the people motorcycling over it. No signs saying "motorcycles not permitted" for example.

One of the problems is that the OS maps aren't always clear, some RUPPs and BOATs can be used, others can't. The only way to be sure is to check with the local council's 'definitive maps' but they aren't very forthcoming in releasing those.
There are also plenty of byways which are legal for vehicles but have been marked up on the ground with footpath signs - not necessarily to mean footpath only, but so that people can find the trail routes - those signs can cause a lot of misunderstanding (and angry ramblers).

One of the problems is that the OS maps aren't always clear, some RUPPs and BOATs can be used, others can't. The only way to be sure is to check with the local council's 'definitive maps' but they aren't very forthcoming in releasing those.
There are also plenty of byways which are legal for vehicles but have been marked up on the ground with footpath signs - not necessarily to mean footpath only, but so that people can find the trail routes - those signs can cause a lot of misunderstanding (and angry ramblers).

This is all true. Clearer guidelines on the paths would help keep everyone happy. Of course then someone will complain about the 'countryside' being festooned with 'ugly signage'.......

Well, it's good to see that a pre-schooler can pick up enough IT skills to contribute to the Forum, even if he does make himself look an utter buffoon.


That's right You've got me spot on there, it must be so cool to be as all knowing as you.

Why has this old one been dug up again, I just think it's a rude thing to do and motor fans believe they have a right to to use these bridleways if they want.

Simple as, nothing will change that. Just two completely different personalitys.

Also why do the motor fans use renegade walkers as there defence.
Ramberlers spitting, barbed wire, traps ect... I'm not buying it!

I've come across 4x4's mowing down kids then reversing over them to finish them off.
Motocross tying pet dogs to there bikes and speeding off over the moors blah blah blah.............................................. ....................................

See it's easy to type it doesn't make it fact though, utter rubbish

The buffoon. x.

That's right You've got me spot on there, it must be so cool to be as all knowing as you.

Why has this old one been dug up again, I just think it's a rude thing to do and motor fans believe they have a right to to use these bridleways if they want.

Simple as, nothing will change that. Just two completely different personalitys.

Also why do the motor fans use renegade walkers as there defence.
Ramberlers spitting, barbed wire, traps ect... I'm not buying it!

I've come across 4x4's mowing down kids then reversing over them to finish them off.
Motocross tying pet dogs to there bikes and speeding off over the moors blah blah blah.............................................. ....................................

See it's easy to type it doesn't make it fact though, utter rubbish

The buffoon. x.

Considering that several posters have made mention of ramblers setting traps, why do you 'not buy it'?
Such things have been in the papers, posted by Forum members, and I've seen dozens of examples over the years. Just because one somewhat excitable and irrational poster chooses ‘not to buy it’ doesn’t mean that the rest of the world is wrong.

Just because one somewhat excitable and irrational poster chooses ‘not to buy it’ doesn’t mean that the rest of the world is wrong.

You after a medal or something.
Where did I say the world is wrong, I'm not buying it....I'm

Is there a book out there for smart arse forum tactics, because I want a copy.

Anyway you've won, I surrender.

???
The ramblers want nice paths to walk on and the 4x4s etc say the don’t damage them….

Don’t the 4x4s go there for one thing because its not flat surfaces and look for the challenge of getting through difficult terrain?
Seems they might be happier with the rutted terrain. Why would they want to go down newly limestone chipped paths? Might as well be on a road.

i think that the mormans who think 4x4ing and trialsing is wrong do not not take it in to consideration about the 90% of byways and footpaths open only to them then the other 10% that is open to bikes and 4x4s and they say they do not want us to be allowed on these byways, they do not have a clue as there are not too many places open for 4x4s. where as the walkers especially can go elsewhere if they do not like it as there is many more places to walk where bikes and 4x4s are not allowed.

Ramberlers spitting, barbed wire, traps ect... I'm not buying it!

The buffoon. x.

I started this thread ages ago, and Bartfarst is right, booby traps are set for mountain bikers. I have seen them myself, thankfully I have never fallen foul of one.

And as for the ramblers, many are fine, but some of them will give you abuse no matter how nice or polite you are.

So there - you are wrong Modesty.

If I put a great length of barbed wire right across the middle of Ecclesall Road, I'd be in for some real stick.

But when the buggers do it near my house, they're "doing their bit to save the countryside"

Tell that to my dog when I'm untangling him from one of your traps.

Also tell him why he has to go on his lead every time some fat balding "I'm not having a midlife crisis, honest!" clown on a trail bike comes haring past us.

As far as I'm concerned, You're both as bad as each other. Think what you'd do if I walked past your house, chucking litter into your garden, kicking your dog in the process - and then tell me why I should have to put up with it.

People in glass houses.......

Hi All

I am a keen mountain biker in the peaks. This is the main reason I studied in Sheffield 15 years ago, and why I decided to stay in this wonderful place.

More recently I have noticed that there has been a massive, sudden increase to the numbers of scramble bikes and land rover type vehicles using, and damaging, the routes and byways out there. They are usually found in convoy groups, adding to the damage they cause.
Many routes that I have ridden for years now have huge ruts in them, and areas where there is such churned up mud, your only option is to take to the heather and skirt around it, thus adding to erosion.

Last weekend I walked from Redmires resovoir up past Stanedge pole to Stanedge Edge. I saw 1 guy on a mountain bike, about 6 people on foot. In the same period I counted 19 trials bikes, all thundering along, creating loads of noise and churning up the track.
This is not an exaggeration! Honest.

What are peoples views on this subject?

i think its great, thats what the outdoors is for - to have fun! why should you have all the fun when there are others who can use the same space. They wouldnt call them Off-road vehicles if they wernt meant to plough up a hillside?

They wouldnt call them Off-road vehicles if they wernt meant to plough up a hillside?

Go out there, have a look. They sure do plough up the hillsides, literally !

If I put a great length of barbed wire right across the middle of Ecclesall Road, I'd be in for some real stick.

But when the buggers do it near my house, they're "doing their bit to save the countryside"

Tell that to my dog when I'm untangling him from one of your traps.

Also tell him why he has to go on his lead every time some fat balding "I'm not having a midlife crisis, honest!" clown on a trail bike comes haring past us.

As far as I'm concerned, You're both as bad as each other. Think what you'd do if I walked past your house, chucking litter into your garden, kicking your dog in the process - and then tell me why I should have to put up with it.

People in glass houses.......

Who is as bad as each other? Mountain bikers and trials riders? Trials riders and off roaders...? Ramblers and ??

Speaking on behalf of all the mountain bikers I know, and as a group on the whole, I dont hink you will find that may who drop litter and kick dogs.

Are you suggesting that you put up wire traps out in Bradfield to catch riders powered or unpowered? I sure hope not.

ive never heard of barbed wire being set anywhere in these areas, who the fu** is doing this? if i ever saw anyone do this i would kick the living **** out of them.

Who is as bad as each other? Mountain bikers and trials riders? Trials riders and off roaders...? Ramblers and ??

Speaking on behalf of all the mountain bikers I know, and as a group on the whole, I dont hink you will find that may who drop litter and kick dogs.

Are you suggesting that you put up wire traps out in Bradfield to catch riders powered or unpowered? I sure hope not.

Why would I put traps up in Bradfield?

There's only one word for people who go out into the countryside to ride motorbikes or 4x4's - soulless.

Countryside like the Peak District is a thing of beauty. It's there for people to go walking in fresh air far away from the city and enjoy the peace and tranquillity. It's there to take in breath-taking scenery and let your mind wander far from the hustle and bustle of the city centre.

Anyone who wants to take a noisy motorised vehicle for a spin in the country and churn up the pathways exhibits a deep and fundamental lack of comprehension as to what countryside actually is. They display a lack of basic human skills such as the appreciation of beauty and the appreciation of natural tranquillity.

I place people like this in the same group as those who ride speedboats on beautiful lakes, those who see peaceful fields and want to build houses on them, or those who have no scruples building a motorway through an area of environmental importance and beauty. In fact, I think it's a great example of the inherent destructiveness of mankind.

:(

Hi All

I am a keen mountain biker in the peaks. This is the main reason I studied in Sheffield 15 years ago, and why I decided to stay in this wonderful place.

More recently I have noticed that there has been a massive, sudden increase to the numbers of scramble bikes and land rover type vehicles using, and damaging, the routes and byways out there. They are usually found in convoy groups, adding to the damage they cause.
What are peoples views on this subject?


I am one of those Hang Glider guys who flies on Stanage Edge regularly, and although I need a car to get me and the gear there, we park on the road right at the end and then enjoy ourselves noiselessly floating around above the lovely scenery - I hate those noisy trail bikes and 4WD people that ruin the peace of the Peaks. Not to mention the damage they cause.

Grrrrr!

I enjoyed reading the last two post, very well written.

I was beginning to think the engine people were out numbering us, although I do understand you do have a right to ride on these Green roads;)

Why do people keep on saying 5% of roads. What about all the great roads with white lines down the middle that are especially built for cars/4x4s motor bikes to go on and strangely enough we pay road tax for.

Grew up on a farm and drove a landrover around every where.
1. It was horrible to drive.
2. If at all possible you avoided boggy/rough steep/rocky terrain as you got stuck and generally churned up the fields.

Now I am not saying that the moto crossers and 4X4 people are just lazy dull people who think they are having an 'adventure', moto crosser's do look like they are having fun got to admit that, but how dull can driving at 2 miles and hour across Houndkirk moor be?? For gods sake I can beat them going up and down hill on my push bike!!!

I think the Fast Show got it spot on.. "Lets go off road.."

I think the Fast Show got it spot on.. "Lets go off road.."

Says it all really! IN MY OPINION that is.

most byways in south west sheffield are made of rock, hardly likely to be damaged by 1 ton vehicles.

i have attempted the stanage route from the opposite end to redmires in a 4x4, failed due to a vehicle problem and pretty much set on by ramblers. it was only the intervention of a ranger on foot that stopped it getting ugly. on my return to the metalled road same ramblers had upturned several rocks on the track to prevent a vehicle passing, vanderlism?

perhaps propoganda as have not been there, but read that parts of pennine way, footpath only were chewed up by walkers in places upto 50 feet wide, as well as new paths made illegally to avoid soggy areas.

there is room for all out there, and as has been said 4x4ers have registrations, any wrong doing can be reported, unlike those with unregistered purely off road equipment which will continue to churn up all remaining rights of way and open land when legitimate users are banned.

personally after the above incident I was put off for a while, but now willing to go out again, cant be controlled by bullies and bigots.

Well, it's good to see that a pre-schooler can pick up enough IT skills to contribute to the Forum, even if he does make himself look an utter buffoon.

I have ridden off-road for a number of years and come across all sorts of attitudes that just don’t help, from both sides. The group I rode with were always meticulous in planning routes to ensure we were on trails that could legally be driven on. Sadly, I know that some (a minority but still too many) off-road riders do stray knowingly onto tracks that they shouldn’t use, which really does ruin it for everyone else. Also, I have had a go at other riders often enough when they’ve either torn past walkers and covered them in spray, or failed to stop to allow horses to pass.

I, and the crowd I ride with, also would stop for walkers if it was a narrow path so that they could pass without danger or being splashed. Applying common courtesy like this would usually result in a pleasant exchange of good morning greetings, but there were many occasions when the ramblers would just use it as an opportunity to launch into a tirade of abuse. Interestingly, these ‘ramblers’ were never the real country folk, they were always the sad city-dwelling types who’d just kitted themselves up with a variety of brightly-coloured and largely unnecessary trimmings from CCCs so that they could treat their 2 hour bimble as a polar expedition.

I have come across wire drawn across the trails, branches positioned in such a way as to present a spike at face level when a bike comes round a corner, piles of logs or stones round corners (thanks for those, they usually make for good obstacles), ramblers physically blocking the path, swinging their walking sticks at us and on occasion ramblers who have spat at us.

All of this abuse, at the hands of ramblers, while using the countryside responsibly, with consideration for other users, and totally legally. And remember the important ratio that other posters have mentioned – we (most of us at any rate) only use 5% of the trails out there that are classed as roads, and do not (because it’s illegal) use the other 95%.

If ramblers don’t like walking on roads with motor vehicles, they can use the other 95% of paths in the Peak District that we can’t use, or they can share the ones that are legally classed as roads with us.

That said, I stopped riding off-road. The spitting, trap-setting ramblers won because I knew that I was close to snapping the next time I received abuse from one of them, and I wasn’t willing to risk the legal consequences should that happen.

The Gnomes of Zurich have been busy I see :loopy:

How I remember the sound of silence on a walk out to the high peak of Kinderscout, with only the bleat of a worried ewe to break it. I grow weary of the sound of engines. It is constant and oppressive. The ceaseless roar of the Interstate (motorway ), a 737 just lifting off from runway 22 at 2000 feet over my head at full power. The trail bikes, snowmobiles, ATVs. Seadoos and power boats on the river. Even the lawnmower unsilenced that a neighbour decides to cut his grass with at seven on a Sunday morning.

i have attempted the stanage route from the opposite end to redmires in a 4x4, failed due to a vehicle problem and pretty much set on by ramblers. it was only the intervention of a ranger on foot that stopped it getting ugly. on my return to the metalled road same ramblers had upturned several rocks on the track to prevent a vehicle passing, vanderlism?



I regularly use two of these green roads mentioned in these posts ( the Stanedge route and the one from Rininglow to Fox House ) at the very very least once a week.

I have never ever seen any barbed wire, grotts, traps, whatever and certainly have never seen groups of silver back ramberlers jumping on bikes or 4x4,s


I think I'm right in saying that it's illegal in the UK to grott or snare people.... am I?

We've gone over all the other stuff and pretty much everythings been said and we know where everyone stands blah blah...... but I just want to get this thing about ramberling freedom fighters straight. It's quite scary.

I regularly use two of these green roads mentioned in these posts ( the Stanedge route and the one from Rininglow to Fox House ) at the very very least once a week.

We've gone over all the other stuff and pretty much everythings been said and we know where everyone stands blah blah...... but I just want to get this thing about ramberling freedom fighters straight. It's quite scary.

I think the people, including myself who actually have seen attempted booby traps left on the trails have got it 'straight'. We have seen them. Just because you havent seen them yourself does not mean that they do not exist.

I havent seen barbed wire across a trail myself, if I did I would report it to the police. Something along those lines is tantamount to attempted murder or at least manslaughter. I HAVE however, seen large rocks deliberately manhandled onto trails on the blind side of corners, there was no other way they could have reached those positions. I have also encountered many rude and angry ramblers in my 20 years of riding the moors, even though I am always courteous and patient and polite.

So thats me setting things straight as far as I see them.

Hi All

I am a keen mountain biker in the peaks. This is the main reason I studied in Sheffield 15 years ago, and why I decided to stay in this wonderful place.

More recently I have noticed that there has been a massive, sudden increase to the numbers of scramble bikes and land rover type vehicles using, and damaging, the routes and byways out there. They are usually found in convoy groups, adding to the damage they cause.
Many routes that I have ridden for years now have huge ruts in them, and areas where there is such churned up mud, your only option is to take to the heather and skirt around it, thus adding to erosion.

Last weekend I walked from Redmires resovoir up past Stanedge pole to Stanedge Edge. I saw 1 guy on a mountain bike, about 6 people on foot. In the same period I counted 19 trials bikes, all thundering along, creating loads of noise and churning up the track.
This is not an exaggeration! Honest.

What are peoples views on this subject?

I reckon we should declare open season on these scum and allow the general public to shoot them on sight. Same with the ass****s in their Land/Range Rovers and all the associated pis***ts in the other kinds of Chelsea Tractors who are chewing up the countryside. :mad:

It's rare for me to be botherd posting on Sheffield forum, but the nievity of the 'ramblers' on this thread has really pi$$ed me off...

Houndkirk track has been mentioned - I take it you mean Houndkirk Road. GET THE DIFFERENCE. It it a BOAT - A byway open to all traffic. It was created for quarry lorries to remove stone from the quarries at the top of the moor. It is still open as an unsurfaced road, so if you don't like taking your dog for a walk, DONT WALK DOWN THE ROAD.

As for the ROAD going over the top of the stanich (sp?) edge, You can't 'thrash' down this - have you walked down the track? Taking a 4x4, a motor cross bike, or a mountain bike down this is very perilouse, it's a steep rocky incline, which you would have to be very very stupid to do at anything other than 1/2 - 1 mph. I would also advise walking down this, unless you are very sure footed.

There are very limited tracks around the hope valley area which are open to all traffic, 1 over stanich (sp?), another across the top of castleton, one going across burbage, and houndkirk ROAD. Compaire that to the amount of tracks (righhfuly) open to walkers, where there are dozens of different, quiet, peacful, and pleasent routes to choose from which are well aware from any intereferance from motorised transport.

The problem with many people who have been arguing against 4x4's is that they are ignoring a couple of points which have been made in this thread.

1. There is less than 4% of byways which are actually clasified as roads open to traffic, and they are not all used by idiots.

2. These are more than likley to be the same people who complain that 4x4's shouldn't be used for the school run, and take them into the countryside where they belong.

3. IT THIS NOT A FREE COUNTRY??

4. DON'T WALK ON THE ROAD.

5. If you have a problem with the classification of a byway, contact your local planning department. For the Peak District the office is in Bakewell, if you plan on actually taking any action then there's someone to contact.

6. Disabled people do drive cars, and 4x4's are used to take people who have mobility problems into area's of outstanding natural beauty - Such as myself taking the mother in law out to a couple of places she would NEVER had seen without the aid of a 4x4

I'm not justifiying the actions of those who ruin it for other people, such as not stopping for walkers (be it bike or car), and not switching engines off for horses, not following existing paths - causing fresh damage (something which walkers seem to ignore). But the VAST majority of those who use mechanised transport on byways do so in a careful and considerate manner, in exactly the same way that most hikers are also careful and considerate, and it's only a few who tar their name also.



ps. sorry about the spelling - rant over....

Why is HoundKirk moor a BOAT dual carriage way now, is it not due to 4X4's not actually being very good at going over rocks and trying to find an easier way?

I assume the quarry you are talking about is the one at the top on Lady Cannings plantation? The rest of the road looks like an old toll road established way before motorised transport.

Please refrain from using the 5%/4% thing as I have already pointed out we pay road tax for roads especially created for cars, ect. They also fantastically get us into areas of natural beauty, i.e. the Peaks. Unless you mean areas without any cars, doh...

ok so a public right of way, we are all the public. why do we need a right, cos its private land maybe. so if the owners accept we (all) have a right to use it, then whats it got to do with any group of us who else uses it.

as for 'i havent seen it therefore it doesnt exist' do you not believe what you seen on tv or hear on news in general. ie news broadcasts. not been to iraq or china but i accept theres been a war and a wall respectively.

have seen a picture of trap that was built and left ina puddle in a 4x4 magazine, would have only damaged a car's tyres. probably killed a horse and its rider.

The worst thing about this whole sorry affair, is that after the muppets have been for their walk (or drive), chucked their litter, set their traps and gone home, us buggers that have to live there are left to clear up after them.

So spare a thought - some of us actually have to spend every day there, not just a few hours at a weekend. The Peak District is not a theme park, and everyone who visits should feel as lucky to be there as I do every day.

The Peak District is not a theme park, .

I think it is just that. Farming doesn't make any money and the Peak District serves the recreational needs of millions of people. We should stop pretending it is anything other than a large recreational area which has to be used for a variety of things.

I am a bit confused by this topic as it seems to be started by someone on a push bike who is complaining about bikes that happen to have engines doing exactly what he is doing. When did we decide that it was acceptable to ride push bikes on footpaths? When did it become so normal that it was then OK for them to complain about other users while churning things up?

I think it is just that. Farming doesn't make any money and the Peak District serves the recreational needs of millions of people. We should stop pretending it is anything other than a large recreational area which has to be used for a variety of things.

I am a bit confused by this topic as it seems to be started by someone on a push bike who is complaining about bikes that happen to have engines doing exactly what he is doing. When did we decide that it was acceptable to ride push bikes on footpaths? When did it become so normal that it was then OK for them to complain about other users while churning things up?

The original post was about the green byway from Redmires up to Stanage Edge. There is now a sign up there which states "unsuitable for motor vehicles" and as I walked up there last weekend I could see why. The entire byway is like some sort of lunar landscape with craters caused by 4 x 4's driving up there when it has been muddy. Hence the sign saying it is unsuitable - however I believe it is still technically a green byway so I could drive my HGV up there if I wanted to.

Which I don't

Because I don't have one

And even if I did it would be pretty stupid.

I think it is just that. Farming doesn't make any money and the Peak District serves the recreational needs of millions of people. We should stop pretending it is anything other than a large recreational area which has to be used for a variety of things.

I am a bit confused by this topic as it seems to be started by someone on a push bike who is complaining about bikes that happen to have engines doing exactly what he is doing. When did we decide that it was acceptable to ride push bikes on footpaths? When did it become so normal that it was then OK for them to complain about other users while churning things up?

push bikes dont exactly "churn up" the land do they.

I am a bit confused by this topic as it seems to be started by someone on a push bike who is complaining about bikes that happen to have engines doing exactly what he is doing. When did we decide that it was acceptable to ride push bikes on footpaths? When did it become so normal that it was then OK for them to complain about other users while churning things up?

Thats right, it was started by someone on a push bike, that someone was me. My point wasnt so much about people on other forms of transport being out there, annoying as I find them. It was more about the damage being done to the trails out there, they are knackered as a recent post has confirmed. The road sections had become so rutted and deep the last time I saw them, that they were almost undriveable by 4 x 4. So they had opted in places to really go off-road, through the heather pathways. When those paths got muddy, the damage became even worse.

When did it become acceptable to ride push bikes on footpaths? Well, I wouldnt know mate, because I dont do it, and I resent the suggestion that we all do. And as for churning up the paths in the same way as the engined bikes and Land Rovers? Get real ! Try reading some books on physics for a start. Look up things like friction, viscocity, traction and horsepower and then figure out who is doing all the damage. Common sense alone will tell you it is not mountain bikers.

This thread has certainly gone round in a huge circle. Ramblers, rights of way, booby traps ....wow.

When did it become acceptable to ride push bikes on footpaths? Well, I wouldnt know mate, because I dont do it, and I resent the suggestion that we all do.

A lot certainly do around the Derwent Valley (not the road bit but the path on the Eastern shore going towards Slippery Stones) and I've lost count of the number of times I've had to move to avoid bikers coming down from Edale Cross towards Jacobs Ladder.

A lot certainly do around the Derwent Valley (not the road bit but the path on the Eastern shore going towards Slippery Stones) and I've lost count of the number of times I've had to move to avoid bikers coming down from Edale Cross towards Jacobs Ladder.

Well do you mean "footpath", or "bridleway"? Cyclists are allowed on bridleways, and those two places certainly have bridleways. Most mountain bikers I know try to ensure they stick to bridleways rather than footpaths (despite some odd things like bridleways in Sheffield CC changing to footpaths with no marker at the Derbyshire border), but walkers seem to think they own the bridleways too, which they don't.

Common sense alone will tell you it is not mountain bikers.
.

It is really a question of degree. Everyone churns up the paths even a dog goinbg for a walk will damage the surface. Push bikes will create far more damage than a walker and a motor bike more than a push bike. What doesn't make sense is for a push bike owner to say "what I do is fine, but once you add a motor it is unnaccpetable". To me, push bikes are unacceptable, just less-unacceptable than a 4X4. If it is a footpath or open land then there shouldn't be a vehicle (inclusing bikes) on it. If it is a road then it should be open to all vehicles until such time as some legal action is take to re-grade it. If it is bridleway then it is for horses, and not bikes.

you all moan far to much, just let people have their fun and be done. Your never going to agree so whats the ****ing point. If you walk just keep walking, if a cyclist comes down the path, just stand aside and them go past, how hard is that? If you unhappy that a cyclist is churning up the path (yeah right) then wear some wellies, if your scared to get muddy then dont leave your frigging house. You dont own any of this land so you have no right to tell people where they can ride a bike or drive a 4x4, if its an official green lane then you cant stop people from taking motor veichles down there, so leave it. misserable gits

It is really a question of degree. Everyone churns up the paths even a dog goinbg for a walk will damage the surface. Push bikes will create far more damage than a walker and a motor bike more than a push bike. .

OK, let's do this in pounds per square inch rather than Newtons per square metre for the benefit of the chronologically challenged.

Mountain bike tyre surface contact area = 2.5 inch times six inches, times two (two wheels), equals 30 square inches.

Average walking boot, single, equals about 3 inches times 10 inches, equals 30 square inches. But you normally come down on your heel which is a sharp point isn't it.

Weight of average mountain bike = just over 30 pounds (less if it's an expensive one). Weight of average mountain biker = around 30 pounds less than the average walker with boots, kagouls, thermos of milky coffee and god knows what else the feel the need to put in those backpacks.

So, pretty similar at about 200/30 = a bit over 6 pounds per square inch for walkers and mountain bikers.

Can't bothered to do the same calc for a trials bike or 4x4, try it yourself. And then think about the trials bike rear wheel spinning at several hundred rpm when they are losing traction and countering by just upping the revs (try doing that on a mountain bike) and digging in, creating the ruts that I beleive this thread was initially about.

If it is bridleway then it is for horses, and not bikes.

That may be your wish, it is not the law, which treats horseriders and cyclists much the same.

Personally I'd make the Dayglo Warriors (ramblers) pass a test and have to hold a licence before they are allowed in the countryside.

The Country Code should also have another rule. No bright anoraks, or rucksacks that you could use to take a months supplies up K2.

I think this thread just proves that these days people can't share anything, it's a strange "I want it all to myself or I'm not playing" kind of mentality that people used to grow out of at the age of 10.

I thought i would add my 2 penneth to this thread...

i have a 4x4 and i love the countryside and keeping it the way it is... i also "Green Lane" ......... let me just set 1 thing straight...

ALL the people who i know who GREEN LANE are very concious of what goes on around them and stick to the main byways, the fact that some ramblers dont like the fact that there are "roads" in the countryside that amount to now less than 5% leaving "ramblers" 95% of places to walk / chew gum / moan about everyone who dont don a bobble hat.....

i say keep stanage edge open to all careful drivers / walkers / bikers / mountain bikers... the land is for sharing... and when alls said and done ITS A ROAD.....:suspect:

7Hills.... Spot on m8,....

As for the "rambling sabotage" get real ... how are YOU going to get rescued if you break your leg ??? by some other rambler gonna carry you out? i dont think so... its gonna be a mountain rescue team who use..... wait for it....

A 4X4 LAND ROVER.... they dont always use a helicopter as too expensive..

Also what happens if someone dies because the emergency services could not get to the location, could you live with that on your conscience all because you laid nails or a trap in some mud puddle? i know i couldnt....

Life is about life...... enough said....

I think the whole point of this thread is that we need to make all these sports sustainable. Walking, cycling and off roading all cause erosion. Look at the paths in the lake district to see the damage that walking does. One can't take a holier than thou attitude. What is important is that steps are taken to ensure that these sports can be enjoyed by all for years to come. As it stands, I would say that the byway over stannage pole is being irreparably damaged by off road vehicles and, to a far lesser degree, mountain bikes. As we can now see in Wales /Scotland there are loads of purpose built, maintained tracks specifically for mountain biking (Seven Staines, macynllyth etc). This means that people who want to ride bikes can and don't cause any damage in doing so. The same should be created for off road vehicles.

I do think it is a travesty that these vehicles are allowed over stannage pole. In the eight years I have been here I have seen a considerable amount of damage to this track. At least it needs to be maintained and controlled. At best new tracks for off road vehicles should be built in less sensitive areas. That way you aren't waving a big stick at a group of people telling them what to do, rather providing facilities for them to do their sport in a sustainable manner.

Firstly, we need to stop shouting at each other. I tire of being blamed for everything by walkers because I ride mountain bikes, so I can see why off roaders could get a bit narked when accused similarly. Lets co-operate guys (that’s a vital lesson that sesame street taught me many years ago).

so what you are saying is .....

1. all 4x4 owners should pay to use tracks on a pre-built course? or are they to be free?


The world is for exploring so let everyone explore in the way they like...

BTW i mountain bike and love doing so... so its not a go against bikers...

so what you are saying is .....

1. all 4x4 owners should pay to use tracks on a pre-built course? or are they to be free?


The world is for exploring so let everyone explore in the way they like...


Even if you destroy it while exploring it in a tank?

the road is nearly all rock in places... so how can that be damaged? sureley a harder surface is more hardwaring? and as far as "tank" goes... u could be right...

getting my turret fitted next week....

For those with a hiking persuasion:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/15/nmoor15.xml

Any mention of wheels there? :shakes:

Personally, I ride my trail bike legally (MOT, Taxed and Insured, as required) on BYWAYS etc, respect other users (Although this is not always reciprocated, walkers being the culprits in my experience unfortunately.), and at a speed which is safe not only for myself, but others around me (1st/2nd gear, no more than 20/25 mph.)

I enjoy my time out on the trails, the scenery, wildlife etc.
I close gates (Country Code), take my litter home (Considerate human being) and do not complain that others wish to share my chosen route.

I also enjoy a walk and to throw my leg over a pedal bike now and again.
All I would hope is that the few remaining Green Lanes within our vast network, are kept open to us riders and 4x4's and not lost forever.

Is it really a lot to ask for?

hit the nail on the head m8....

hit the nail on the head m8....

Thanks. Just trying to add my view point. :smile:

I find icecream vans annoying with their bloody stupid jingles, And I don't like cold weather. I vote we ban them aswell while we'ere into banning things.

aww i kinda like the cold weather as my 4x4 likes the cold air intake... how about we just ban it around where you are? about a 100 meter radius? then u would have sunshine all day long... hmmm re-thinks i think i would like that.... hehehe

:hihi: :thumbsup:

What if i converted my 4x4 into an icecream van and parked it at the top of a hill on a byway of course to serve everyone icecream as they pass by? do you think there would be complaints then?

hehehe

What if i converted my 4x4 into an icecream van and parked it at the top of a hill on a byway of course to serve everyone icecream as they pass by? do you think there would be complaints then?

You can bet your gearbox there would! :nod:
Since the 'Right to Roam' was obtained nowhere is safe:suspect:. Odds are someone's going to wanna walk on the very ground beneath your 4x4/van. I can hear it now............"Move scumbag before I hit you with my stick!".............."You shouldn't be on hear!"................"Bipeds only!"..........BLAH DE BLAH DE BLAH :roll::wink::lol:

Something to consider:
http://www.trf.org.uk/trffiles.php

Something to consider:
http://www.trf.org.uk/trffiles.php

Apologies:blush:
Click the above, then:
PRESS RELEASE 20050601.pdf :wink:

Apologies:blush:
Click the above, then:
PRESS RELEASE 20050601.pdf :wink:

I suggest the authors of that report take a look at

* Totley Moor
* Stanage (going down toward Hathersage on the green lane)
* Houndkirk

Large parts of these trails are now unrideable on a mountain bike. If you're on a boat/rup where you can't see anything because the surface is 6 feet below where it used to be, then I'd say that's someone is causing some erosion...

Why do people have to have hobbies which destroy wildlife and the countryside and make life intolerable for others? As to buying your child one of the horrible bikes for a present what an irresponsible parent!! They buy their little darlings anything they ask for I'm sure it's mostly to recapture their own mis-spent youth. Please look after the environment. If you have children that's surely more reason to preserve nature? What kind of a planet will they inherit? Certainly one full of selfish heartless people living in some kind of barren desert. Why don't people think things through? :rant: :rant: :rant:

Why do people have to have hobbies which destroy wildlife and the countryside and make life intolerable for others? As to buying your child one of the horrible bikes for a present what an irresponsible parent!! They buy their little darlings anything they ask for I'm sure it's mostly to recapture their own mis-spent youth. Please look after the environment. If you have children that's surely more reason to preserve nature? What kind of a planet will they inherit? Certainly one full of selfish heartless people living in some kind of barren desert. Why don't people think things through? :rant: :rant: :rant:

i dont think they will end up in a barren dsesert, thats a bit over the top! 4x4's and bikes cause damage and yes they are not enviro friendly, but to say these people are selfish and heartless and will ruin the world is wrong. Do you drive?

i dont think they will end up in a barren dsesert, thats a bit over the top! 4x4's and bikes cause damage and yes they are not enviro friendly, but to say these people are selfish and heartless and will ruin the world is wrong. Do you drive?

No, I walk most places

No, I walk most places

and the other times?

and the other times?
I have to catch a bus

I have to catch a bus

tut tut, not very environment friendly are they - why encourage such destruction of the earth, before you know it the world will be a wasteland and it will all be your fault! why not walk, or run, or hop or whatever, but if you are so worried about how a 4x4 will ruin the earth please dont use buses as these beasts will end life as we know it ;)

If all you people realy care about the environment you would be better chanelling your energy into combatting global climate change rather than moaning about people on motorbikes. Because if something isn't done soon you will have much, much bigger problems than a few messed-up paths and the odd pothole.

If all you people realy care about the environment you would be better chanelling your energy into combatting global climate change rather than moaning about people on motorbikes. Because if something isn't done soon you will have much, much bigger problems than a few messed-up paths and the odd pothole.

Am I "you people"? Dunno.

This thread was supposed to be about the erosion to some paths in the peaks, and what if anything could be done about it. Various users cause varying degrees of erosion, but some trails which are currently legal for vehicles are becoming so badly eroded that maybe that should be changed; either that or somebody (the local 4x4 or trails bike club?) should be up there on the moors doing some spade work. Maybe they do. I've never seen them, but perhaps I just missed them.

As to saving the world.. well the easiest thing to do is to switch your electricity supplier to someone who doesn't use fossil fuels, it takes minutes.

tut tut, not very environment friendly are they - why encourage such destruction of the earth, before you know it the world will be a wasteland and it will all be your fault! why not walk, or run, or hop or whatever, but if you are so worried about how a 4x4 will ruin the earth please dont use buses as these beasts will end life as we know it ;)
I did say I walk most places if you read all the posts! The bus is a last resort and they do run on roads designed for them and not through fields and woods populated by animals and wildlife put in danger to satisfy macho hobbies!!:P

I did say I walk most places if you read all the posts! The bus is a last resort and they do run on roads designed for them and not through fields and woods populated by animals and wildlife put in danger to satisfy macho hobbies!!:P

No, i did read that, and also never stated that you caught loads of busses, but even using a bus a few times a month is encouraging enviroment pollution and death to all the iccle animals that avoided being squashed by some big ass 4x4 wheels.

Very patronising 'iccle animals'! However, one vehicle is essential and the other a whim for some saddo to get his kicks. I haven't ever been on a bus where an animal has been squashed 'iccle' or otherwise!

Very patronising 'iccle animals'! However, one vehicle is essential and the other a whim for some saddo to get his kicks. I haven't ever been on a bus where an animal has been squashed 'iccle' or otherwise!

neither have i. I meant the pollution from the bus would kill all the iccle animals that avoided being mangled by the 4x4's. And them saddo's have to get their kicks from somewhere ;) its either that or drugs haha, which would you prefer enviro man.

neither have i. I meant the pollution from the bus would kill all the iccle animals that avoided being mangled by the 4x4's. And them saddo's have to get their kicks from somewhere ;) its either that or drugs haha, which would you prefer enviro man.

Or enviro woman even! Definitely not drugs. Truce? ;)

Large parts of these trails are now unrideable on a mountain bike. If you're on a boat/rup where you can't see anything because the surface is 6 feet below where it used to be, then I'd say that's someone is causing some erosion...

Firstly, I would say 6', would probably be stretching the facts a little!:huh:
Secondly, Following the rescent NERC (Natural Envioment Reserch Council) bill, of which was led by the head of the 'Ramblers Association :suspect: many of the lanes previousley open to LIGITIMATE 4x4's and TRAILS bikes has now been lost.
This was previousley 5% of lanes available throught the UK. (Wether statistics bother anyone or not! [As previous posts])
Therefore, will it be any surprise that in a short while, that the few remaining routes available, due to forced useage, will become over used (or as some may claim..............6' deep?

Or enviro woman even! Definitely not drugs. Truce? ;)


haha i apologise enviro Women, truce it is ;)

Firstly, I would say 6', would probably be stretching the facts a little!:huh:

OK, can you do us a favour then? Go up to the places I mention (leave the vehicle and walk so you can see stuff properly maybe) and measure how far beneath the land surface the worst bits of these tracks now is.

Then report back and let us know. Maybe it's only 4 of 5 feet deep, and you think that is perfectly acceptible. If so, can you also state what your plan for preventing the 4 or 5 feet turning into 6 feet is, or at what level of erosion you would agree that there is a problem?

Thanks!

I currently ride a sports bike on the road, it's not suitable for off road riding, but I was rencently in a discussion on a Sheffield biking forum about getting in to 'greenlaning'.

I, and a few others, are looking in to taking this up.

I have never ridden off road, but there's a shop in Sheffield that apparently does bike hire and a tour sort of thing to get people in to it. I'm going to have a go and if I like it I will take this up.

I often see people coming back from their off roading rides and they look like they've had fun.

I am a law abiding person and will of course respect the law and other people while doing this, but I certainly intend to give it a go. It looks like fun.

I think that people should learn to accept others. I often walk in the countryside with my girlfriend and we often take the dog too. I don't have a problem with 4x4s or bikes sharing the area with us, it's not my decision to make and I don't want to be selfish by trying to stop them if they are doing it legally.

By the way, if anyone's able to offer advice on getting in to this then feel free to PM me.

OK, can you do us a favour then? Go up to the places I mention (leave the vehicle and walk so you can see stuff properly maybe) and measure how far beneath the land surface the worst bits of these tracks now is.

Then report back and let us know. Maybe it's only 4 of 5 feet deep, and you think that is perfectly acceptible. If so, can you also state what your plan for preventing the 4 or 5 feet turning into 6 feet is, or at what level of erosion you would agree that there is a problem?

Thanks!
Gladly, provided I can ride said routes legally(No need to walk as I can take everything in at 20mph.)
As a builder, I do indeed posess a tape, so measuring will not be a problem. However, I will not accept tolerances of 2 feet as you so readily do:huh:
I do not like to see heavily rutted routes, especially when they are off the specified trails.
I take it from reading your previous posts that you enjoy mountain biking?
Out of general interest, do mountain bike clubs partake in voluntary Lane repair days (As is the case with TRAIL and 4x4 clubs)?
I suggest you do not point the finger at specific user groups, as we all contribute to erosion as I have previously posted...........
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main15/nmoor15.xml
either by foot or wheeled traffic.
As the initial thread was entitled "Peak District-Scramble Bikes and Land Rovers" I would like to fight my own corner if I may.
I ride legally and responsibly (As one of my previous posts, should you care to look), following the TRF code.
http://www.trf.org.uk/code.php
The "Scramble Bikers" will be the ones who continue to ignore any imposed legislation/laws and abuse the Trails. They will still be there long after we ligitimate riders have been forced to leave!
I will state once again, that I have no problem with sharing my chosen (legal) route with other users, be they walkers, horse riders, mountain bikers, motor bikers or 4x4's.
As I may not know or have ridden the routes you have mentioned, as another responsable and knowledgable rider, feel free to give me the O.S. Landranger Map grid references.

Thanks!

Just wanted to say HI to the two complete idiots who were riding the MX bikes at 40mph over cut-gate path two sundays ago, thanks for the face full of dust and rocks, and for making my wife panic on her MTB.... .true ambasadors for there community :loopy:

Just wanted to say HI to the two complete idiots who were riding the MX bikes at 40mph over cut-gate path two sundays ago, thanks for the face full of dust and rocks, and for making my wife panic on her MTB.... .true ambasadors for there community :loopy:

Probably the same idiots that nearly ran my dog over up by the 'bower as well.

I've got a few rolls of Barbed wire knocking about if anyone wants to put a stop to these activities - just ask in at the derwent for me and they'll point you in the right direction.

And who enjoys the countryside wearing big leathers and a full face helmet covered in muck anyway????

Understand the anger Johnny but barbed wire is a bit extreme, plus it would pop my MTB tyers :-)

Probably the same idiots that nearly ran my dog over up by the 'bower as well.

I've got a few rolls of Barbed wire knocking about if anyone wants to put a stop to these activities - just ask in at the derwent for me and they'll point you in the right direction.

And who enjoys the countryside wearing big leathers and a full face helmet covered in muck anyway????
Seems a bit unfair to punish them all because of a minority causing problems.

I enjoy going in the countryside in my leathers and full face helmet, I ride on the road and it's safety gear that allows me to enjoy my motorbike.

There are some other road riders that cause plenty of problems, but I don't, however people aren't looking to punish me just because of a minority. There will always be those not respecting others, but I still think we should all learn to tolerate each other, including those that are different to us.

Probably the same idiots that nearly ran my dog over up by the 'bower as well.

I've got a few rolls of Barbed wire knocking about if anyone wants to put a stop to these activities - just ask in at the derwent for me and they'll point you in the right direction.

And who enjoys the countryside wearing big leathers and a full face helmet covered in muck anyway????

I do, nothing better than getting mucky for the day ;)

and if i see the barbed wire up there, i know who to return it to. Thanks John

I do, nothing better than getting mucky for the day ;)

and if i see the barbed wire up there, i know who to return it to. Thanks John
There are laws covering the use of this stuff and some severe concequences for improper use, so I doubt anyone's daft enough to risk that.

With the mention of mountain bikes it reminds me 2 summers back. I was walking around Labybower Dam when 3 or 4 mountain bikes came hurtling past us going down the path. We stood aside and I commented to my girlfriend how quick and close they were to us.

As we got to the bottom of the path there was a man involved in an argument with them and a girl crying. I don't think they'd hit her as she didn't look injured or mucky, but I suspect they'd scared her in some way.

Just shows again that there are bad examples in all groups.

I'm not keen on horses using public roads because of the horse poo they leave on it being a hazard to motorcycles and cars etc. but I accept they are there and learn to live with them.

I guess it's just a case of accepting others and having tolerance.

I do, nothing better than getting mucky for the day ;)

and if i see the barbed wire up there, i know who to return it to. Thanks John

Oh well at least you recycle - it's not all bad.....

Understand the anger Johnny but barbed wire is a bit extreme, plus it would pop my MTB tyers :-)

No, of course i wouldnt condone using barbed wire, but it's so annoying.

You know, these are the places I have to go - because I live there. I dont choose to visit, I have to use the place every day, and I think people forget that.

I've said in this thread before, The Peak District is not just a theme park, it's home to a lot of people - so the minority that treat it as such quite frankly want their arses shaving.

No offence to the majority of you by the way.

No, of course i wouldnt condone using barbed wire, but it's so annoying.

You know, these are the places I have to go - because I live there. I dont choose to visit, I have to use the place every day, and I think people forget that.

I've said in this thread before, The Peak District is not just a theme park, it's home to a lot of people - so the minority that treat it as such quite frankly want their arses shaving.

No offence to the majority of you by the way.
Surely it's there to be enjoyed by all?

I don't live there but I do go there a lot to enjoy it with my friends on the road bikes, with my dog to walk around, with my girlfriend just to enjoy the scenery etc.

I have no intentions of living there, but I find your opinion of those that don't live there enjoying it to be a little off.

If people are enjoying visiting the place and sticking to the law then surely there's no problem?

I can appreciate there are the odd few that abuse the place and break the law, but this isn't the same for everyone.

I've got a few rolls of Barbed wire knocking about if anyone wants to put a stop to these activities - just ask in at the derwent for me and they'll point you in the right direction.

And who enjoys the countryside wearing big leathers and a full face helmet covered in muck anyway????

I hope the Police have noted your Barbed wire stocks and your incinuated[sp] usage:evil::loopy:
Just how many riders have you seen off road (as topic) in leathers and full faced helmets? Mucky yes:thumbsup:,but I bet they had a smile:wink:

Just as a matter for contemplation:
Today I rode upon an ORPA (Other Route with Public Access).
Along said route I came upon three persons.
The first, with his dog unleashed. I slowed to a crawl (as not to frighten the beast [the dog, not the man!]). We exchanged nods and greetings:thumbsup:.
Further on I encountered a horse rider upon her steed. I stopped, killed my engine and awaited their passage. I was rewarded with a "Thank you, much appreciated" (Her words, not mine):thumbsup::thumbsup::banana:.
The last person I chanced upon was a lady with her two mutts roaming freely. Again I slowed to an almost complete stop as she hearded her animals, and thanked her.:wink:
I was greeted with with a look, something akin to the parcel one of her pooches had just deposited upon the track!:evil:(Which, for the pleasure of all users, she neglected to retrive as I noted in my rear view mirror!:nono:)

I suppose I should be greatfull. As Meatloaf once said.........."Two outta three ain't bad":roll:

Surely it's there to be enjoyed by all?

I don't live there but I do go there a lot to enjoy it with my friends on the road bikes, with my dog to walk around, with my girlfriend just to enjoy the scenery etc.

I have no intentions of living there, but I find your opinion of those that don't live there enjoying it to be a little off.

If people are enjoying visiting the place and sticking to the law then surely there's no problem?

I can appreciate there are the odd few that abuse the place and break the law, but this isn't the same for everyone.

I think JW is referring to the minority that don't treat their surroundings with the respect they deserve - I'm sure he doesn't want the Peaks closed to tourists altogether.

That's fair enough then.

I suggest the authors of that report take a look at

* Totley Moor
* Stanage (going down toward Hathersage on the green lane)
* Houndkirk

Large parts of these trails are now unrideable on a mountain bike. If you're on a boat/rup where you can't see anything because the surface is 6 feet below where it used to be, then I'd say that's someone is causing some erosion...
The story so far:
*Totley Moor
I have yet to ride, but looking at the OS Landranger map only a small percentage is open to vehicular traffic (BOAT/Byway).
Certainly crossing its entire length is prohibited. Bridleway only(Foot traffic, horses and cycles).
*Stanage
Byway access is from Redmires to the Pole. From there on is an ORPA (Other Route with Public Access[following the NERC bill I do not know if this is accessible,will have to check])
Agreed there is substantial erosion OFF the highway. Unacceptable. Should one wish to point a finger, I would say that said erosion would have been caused by 4x4 traffic. However I do not know the layout of the land prior to suspected 4x4 useage. The present "6 foot " hollows may have been present before.
As stated, this is off the legal highway, something I personally ( and many users do not agree with).
*Houndkirk
What's your problem? The majority of this route is either natural stone, sanded or limestoned! If your talking about the left hand intersection with takes you along the plantation exiting towards the upper end of Ringlow Road then, yes the very begining could be described as rather rutted but then the following length of the route is in my perception, fine.
I also noted that where the BYWAY is becoming widened along it's entirety, the greater majority of tyre tracks were of cycles!
Byways are for the use of EVERYONE! Enjoy:rolleyes:
If you do not want to use said routes then there are many more bridleways around our fair and local counties.
Personally I do not truly enjoy having dog and horse s**t flung up my back as I LEGALLY ride on BOATS/ORPA's, but as far as I last knew, It's (almost:rolleyes:) a free country!

Good news on the motorbike front, I ride my MTB in Wharncliffe woods almost every weekend, more often than not there are MX bikes, Mini motos, Monkey bikes etc in the woods.
Last weekend I had a run in with three youths (!) on Monkey bikes in Wharncliffe woods, I called the Golden Line (details below). Following this I got a call back tonight from PC Tony Gillet from Deepcar station.
Thought I would share the good news with all.

The police in Deepcar, Oughtibridge and Hillsborough are well aware of the issue with bikes in Greno, WW and Wheatly. Steel Valley projects have been working over the last few months to start permenantly blocking access to areas for motorbikes.
In the last 3 weeks the police have issued over 40 ADM171 notices to MX riders. This notice is a warning that if another notice is presented then the bike is taken away with a £105 fine to recover + £12 per day for every day its not recovered.
Tony expressed that he would be very gratefull if anyone does see motor bike riders in the woods they do call the "Golden line number" which is 0114 296 4912 and report the details of who, number plates if any and most importantly as we can spot the difference between riders if they are MX with all the kit, Monkey bikes, kids etc.

With the notices given to MX riders Tony said that people were traveling to Wharncliffe from as far away as Stockport, Newcastle as they believed the woods were open to all motorbikes. He said once presented with the notice that all the MX riders were quick to txt / call freinds to explain that the woods were closed to motor bikes.

As Wharncliffe is on the border between four stations Tony is working on a joint operation, and has already spoken with Steel Valley projects and FC for there co-operation.

So all looks good on the motorbike front, its evident that if people raise the profile of the problem on the golden line then it will help Tony and his collegue PC Andy Reese.

cheers.

GOLDEN LINE 0114 296 4912

That's good that they are stopping people from riding where they shouldn't be, let's just hope they allow those that abide by the law to continue riding legally in other areas.

hi
i am not from arount sheffield i am from surrey, but i would like to state my point.
i am 20 years old i have a few friends that enjoy off roading the same as many other people do.
because of my age we are told by a few people that it is us young 'yobo's' that ruin the countryside, in fact it is the joy riders that tend to tear up the public by-ways.
also walkers saying that they meet 4x4s and scramblers on the trails, you will do as they have a right to be there. i am not saying that the walkers shouldnt be there but you need to realize that it is a very small percentage of the lanes we are allowed on and that it is some peoples only way of getting out and seeing the countryside.
thanks for taking the time to read my views.

also walkers saying that they meet 4x4s and scramblers on the trails, you will do as they have a right to be there

I've seen plenty on footpaths and bridleways... in Wharncliffe woods... etc etc.. maybe its like everything else, a few spoiling the reputation and image of others.

hi
i am not from arount sheffield i am from surrey, but i would like to state my point.
i am 20 years old i have a few friends that enjoy off roading the same as many other people do.
because of my age we are told by a few people that it is us young 'yobo's' that ruin the countryside, in fact it is the joy riders that tend to tear up the public by-ways.
also walkers saying that they meet 4x4s and scramblers on the trails, you will do as they have a right to be there. i am not saying that the walkers shouldnt be there but you need to realize that it is a very small percentage of the lanes we are allowed on and that it is some peoples only way of getting out and seeing the countryside.
thanks for taking the time to read my views.

If you want to see the countryside, why not take up a country sport like horse riding, walking or mountain biking. If you want to ride a motorcycle fast why not use a proper track?

Just a thought.

I'd like to know which scrambling group (there were about ten of them) shot out of a track on the A57 near Ladybower, used the A57 road for about 400 yards (none of the bikes were road legal) and then shot off up another track a few Sundays ago.

If you want to see the countryside why wander around it in a brightly coloured waterproof more suitable for climbing Everest, a walking pole when there is a perfectly good footpath and a GPS when there is a tea shop around every corner?

Just a thought.

If you want to see the countryside, why not take up a country sport like horse riding, walking or mountain biking. If you want to ride a motorcycle fast why not use a proper track?

Just a thought.

the reason i like to use the public byways is because i already compete in the british sidecartrials championship and enjoy spending time off road in my landrover rather than on a motorcycle.
i understand fully what you are saying but it is only a very small percentage of people who ruin it for the rest.
i like to go out for a nice gentle drive in the countryside rather than sitting in traffic jams or road works.
i dont mean to sound rude or soung like i am disagreeing with you but i am fed up with people generalizing the normal responsible land rover owners and the YOBOS. we are not the same.
thanks

the reason i like to use the public byways is because i already compete in the british sidecartrials championship and enjoy spending time off road in my landrover rather than on a motorcycle.
i understand fully what you are saying but it is only a very small percentage of people who ruin it for the rest.
i like to go out for a nice gentle drive in the countryside rather than sitting in traffic jams or road works.
i dont mean to sound rude or soung like i am disagreeing with you but i am fed up with people generalizing the normal responsible land rover owners and the YOBOS. we are not the same.
thanks

trouble is it ruins other peoples enjoyment of the countryside, filling it with noise and pollution. By driving around it you are making it a road and forcing other countryside users out. I hope they continue to put up plenty of lovely barriers:D

trouble is it ruins other peoples enjoyment of the countryside, filling it with noise and pollution. By driving around it you are making it a road and forcing other countryside users out. I hope they continue to put up plenty of lovely barriers:D

Like I said before I completely understand your point, but to be honest you have to look very hard to actually find a byway so if you are walking on them the I can imagine that you just walk on them to have a moan, and if you wanted to you could go for a 100 mile walk without coming across one. Also if they put barriers up then It will force more people to break the law by driving on foot baths or bridleways.

Like I said before I completely understand your point, but to be honest you have to look very hard to actually find a byway so if you are walking on them the I can imagine that you just walk on them to have a moan, and if you wanted to you could go for a 100 mile walk without coming across one. Also if they put barriers up then It will force more people to break the law by driving on foot baths or bridleways.


I do believe that if you obstruct a byway (a legal right of way) its ilegal as you are obstructing a road, now a smart person would not go play with sticks and stones on a B road in or out of Sheffield surely?

I "off-road" or "green-lane" on very legal routes including houdkirk and stanage but the club i am part of make sure each and every time they have an event that the rules of GLASS are followed.

its just a shame that "new to 4x4" people chose to drive where they see fit and not check out the legal access of the land (like the three clubs I am part off)

I do believe that some 4x4 users are not all as vigilant and stick to the routes but we should not all be painted with the same brush, after all its about as bigger riot as fox hunting.. should we shouldn't we..

some of the roads we use where the only roads available to vehicles before major roads made from tarmac and the like where laid

walkers and ramblers cross fields that they should not due to the right to roam, should be not question this? would Mr red bobbly hat and blue wolly sock like Miss Red boots and black fleece to walk into his sitting room, just because we have the right to roam?

I could argue this case all day long, but it gets people know where in the end we all have our own personal opinions on it, and nothing is going to alter any one of us, the row just gets bigger and petty

I would love to post the club name for like minded people but this forum like many others would use this to register and add derogative threads/posts

For you information:

www.glass-uk.org/
http://www.trailwise.org.uk/
http://www.treadlightly-uk.org/
http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/leisure/countryside/Access_recreation/rights_of_way/default.asp

Like I said before I completely understand your point, but to be honest you have to look very hard to actually find a byway so if you are walking on them the I can imagine that you just walk on them to have a moan, and if you wanted to you could go for a 100 mile walk without coming across one. Also if they put barriers up then It will force more people to break the law by driving on foot baths or bridleways.

I rarely walk, and have never met either when I have been. However the countryside for literally miles around no longer sounds of birdsong but s***** diesel engines....nice!

That will be the tourists out in their cars to 'enjoy the tranquillity of the countryside' :)

That will be the tourists out in their cars to 'enjoy the tranquillity of the countryside' :)

no it isn't, normal cars being driven normally don't sound like that.....and that won't be me as I don't drive to the countryside if thats what you are trying to imply!

However I agree, the countryside is much better where there are no cars:D

I bloody hate ramblers.

I've participated in Driving, Riding (motorised) and Riding mtb's off road, and it's the ramblers who generally cause trouble, set traps and vandalise the trails. I've lost count the amount of times I've come across neck height fishing wire, large logs, barbed wire, nails and glass when riding. Even caught one in the act. Was funny watching him swing his stick and the bobble on his hat going mad as we chased him.

They also like to walk directly in front of landrovers, but speaking from experience, they don't like a bullbar in the backpack.

I walk at least once a week in the Peaks and it's very rare i come across 4x4's and off road motorbikers etc, probably because i tend to walk areas well away from the Sheffield borders.
Personally though, and having a fear of horses i don't mind sharing paths with them, or vice versa depending on your view, mountain bikers, they don't really bother me if they are riding in a considerate manner.
To be honest though, if i had the power i would ban any form of engine powered leisure activities in the Peaks, they do cause damage and that is an issue but for me i admit, it is for selfish reasons, i just prefer peace and quiet when i'm out.
Sorry.

To be honest though, if i had the power i would ban any form of engine powered leisure activities in the Peaks, they do cause damage and that is an issue but for me i admit, it is for selfish reasons, i just prefer peace and quiet when i'm out.
Sorry.

They banned motor boats from speeding on The Lakes. It made the place much better in my opinion.

hi
i am not from arount sheffield i am from surrey, but i would like to state my point.
i am 20 years old i have a few friends that enjoy off roading the same as many other people do.
because of my age we are told by a few people that it is us young 'yobo's' that ruin the countryside, in fact it is the joy riders that tend to tear up the public by-ways.
also walkers saying that they meet 4x4s and scramblers on the trails, you will do as they have a right to be there. i am not saying that the walkers shouldnt be there but you need to realize that it is a very small percentage of the lanes we are allowed on and that it is some peoples only way of getting out and seeing the countryside.
thanks for taking the time to read my views.

Out of interst does your bike have a really loud exhaust? If so is it completely necessary? You often can't see the bikes out in the peaks but you can certainly hear them!

If you want to see the countryside why wander around it in a brightly coloured waterproof more suitable for climbing Everest, a walking pole when there is a perfectly good footpath and a GPS when there is a tea shop around every corner?

Because none of those accoutrements prevent you seeing the countryside? Or make any noise?

At least these overequipped walkers don't think the countryside looks incomplete without a tax disc in the bottom right hand corner.

You've seen line after line of day-glo warriors on the horizon I take it?

Not nice.

Not natural.

Not necessary

Out of interst does your bike have a really loud exhaust? If so is it completely necessary? You often can't see the bikes out in the peaks but you can certainly hear them!

No it does not and to be honest I also think it is pointless unless you are competing on a competition track. We could argue for years and i'm sure people will but everyone has different views and interest what it needs is for all motorcyclists and 4x4 drivers to be curtious and for the walkers to avoid byways as they are actually classed as unpathed ROADS!