Todays news - - - - Call me a nationalist - - right winger - - whatever you like - - - - - I have talked on the forum about sleepers - - fundamentalists - - mind altered religious nuts - - - - Now it is being put in front of you - - - - - - I don't subscribe to the Blair - policy - - But I am beginning to agree with the Blunket policy - - lock them up until they are found to be innocent.
Supervise the education in the mosques.
It's your lives - - they are threatening.

Well, if theres a suspicion of wrong doing then they should be contained until proven innocent. That goes for anyone though. Not so sure about monitoring education, its their culture, we can't really tell them its wrong.
I mean, I don't think they are having lessons on how to perform terrorist attacks...:)

Education - - - I mean in the mosques - - not our schools - - Am I a fanatic ? - - No
But what sensible country and government - - allows these people to preach death and destruction - - - In the name of "Human Rights" ? ?
They are not persecuted in Britain.
If they wish to preach a "Jehad" - - - do it in islamic countries - - -

erm, Am I reading you wrong or are you suggesting that mosques are responsible for teaching terrorist ways?

I am not suggesting anything - - but they have closed one or two!
There are hard core sections in all secular schools - - - - I was dragged up by the christian brothers - here in sheffield for example - - - but they only beat us - - didn't preach a change of state.

Erm I don't think that because a couple of fundamentalists claim to be muslim means that you should consider mosques to be teaching the ways of terrorism. Otherwise, we'll also have to close all the Catholic churches to preven them teaching the ways of the IRA.

I didn't propose to close any type of schools - - just monitor them - - I lost a lot of friends in Ireland - - - I don't want to lose any in Sheffield

Originally posted by Andy78
Erm I don't think that because a couple of fundamentalists claim to be muslim means that you should consider mosques to be teaching the ways of terrorism. Otherwise, we'll also have to close all the Catholic churches to preven them teaching the ways of the IRA.

The comparison with the IRA is a good one. Not every catholic publicly supports terrorism, but you'll find a lot more empathy for the "struggle" within the catholic community than elsewhere. I was raised as a catholic, so I can confirm that to be true.

Similarly, while the mosques would obviously never come out and publicly condone terrorism, the muslim world is a very tight knit community and their faith borders on the fanatical. I would say that there is a lot of empathy right across the muslim world for what they see as their struggle against America and the "evil West".

Why else would the rest of the muslim world stand by and watch in mute complicity after 9/11?

The IRA a good comparison ??
I don't really agree - - - at least that was a home grown conflict - - meaning the causes and conflict arose out of British history - - - - Don't start on colonialism - - - people don't have to come here - and then start a culture change.

Sorry for the last reply - - - Hit the button before edit - or re-read.
Fundamentalism - - is not a part of a western religion - - - Ireland only touched on the edge of that - - - - Suicide Bombers? ?

Originally posted by sheffco
The IRA a good comparison ??
I don't really agree - - - at least that was a home grown conflict - - meaning the causes and conflict arose out of British history - - - - Don't start on colonialism - - - people don't have to come here - and then start a culture change.

Read it again.

The comparison with the IRA is good because there tends to be a natural empathy between people of a shared faith.

Whether morally or materially, people tend to support their own, especially when strong religious views are involved.

I'm a pretty old guy - - - Went on the marches - with banners - to the farm grounds - at easter - - - dropping off the bandsmen at every pub - - - we - the kids sat on brewery drays.
Solly Street - - had a Protestant school at the top - - - Catholic in the middle - - - Jewish bakery at the bottom - - - that was the only kind of racism I knew - - - - - It was there - but only in name calling - - - - propsticks & Catlicks

Originally posted by sheffco

Fundamentalism - - is not a part of a western religion

I'm sorry, you seem to have a view of western religion many people don't agree with

How many wars have been waged by Christianity against Islam? or how often have Christians persecuted Jews?

Someone may claim that Christianity doesn't do this nowadays and to some extent they are right, what concerns me more is that any religion can be turned to violence, even when violence is against pretty much every code in either the Koran or the Bible.

Frankly, by thinking that Islam is the cause of all terrorism (i agree this is an assumption based upon your beliefs that mosques train people to be terrorists), and not the socio-economic factors of how the western world has exploited the rest of the world, you only fuel the problem of terrorism by contributing to the persecution now felt by the Muslim world in the last few years.

Wilf

Well Wilf - - - what can I say - - - - There was the crusades - - there was Torqumada - - - there was witch burning - - - there was colonialisation - - - IT often brought civilisation with it - - - - I have been to Pakistan - and India - the middle east - - and many more - - Their infra-structure - - if it is left - was based on the victorian structure.
My real point about fundamentalists - - is that they seem to want to return to biblical days .

We are getting away from the thread - - - - The people arrested today - - - were british citizens - - what are they doing - - plotting against this country - - - why not go and blow up the corrupt govenment of Pakistan? ? ?

You make an interesting point but i personally belive that fundamentalists react badly to change or when they are presented with a viewpoint/culture that is different to their own.

The best way to i can see for the issues of race relations to be solved or at least calmed down is understanding and patience. Not assuming that everyone who follows a faith is a fundamentalist. Treating everyone who is muslim as a criminal until proven innocent is a breach of human rights and also persecutes them.

We can tighten security measure in this country by asking for everyone to be vigilant and also by trying to deal with the bigger problem within the muslim culture. People feel threatened because their way of life is being threatend by the increasing westernisation of the world which has a tendency to destoy cultures and place it's own ideology in place of it.

The whole idea of 'A MacDonalds on every street corner in Iraq' may seem a bit OTT but it is a simple way of describing how aggressive the western culture is in tryign to dominate all other ways of life. The small group of fundamentalists within a culture will be prone to reactionary measures to this, regardless of culture or religion.

As for India, Pakistan and the like being based upon our old strcture is only because we exploited these counries for years and used their wealth to build our own empire and make the UK richer. This is another reason people in the middle east have to dislike us.

Now, at the start of a new century we are trying to dominate them once again, this time by making them want to be like our society by our aggressive methods of promoting our way of life. I can understand perfectly why a very small minority would feel helpless to do anything about their country being sucked into a culture run simply on greed. Not that this is the only reason for terrorism, envy of our society is part of it (but we are responsible for that too, since our exploitation caused their debt also).

Wilf

Wilf - - - you are very eloquent - - - But really I am talking about Britain - - I know Saudi - Oman _ Dubai - Bahrain - - - they have happilly embraced mac donalds etc - shopping malls - -
They don't really have any complaints - - - most of the population pay only token respect to the muslim faith - - even Saddam was not really religious.
Do you really advocate stoning - - ritual rape - - female circumcision - - all attributes of fundementalist religion in various parts of the world - - I've witnessed it.

Originally posted by BrainThrust
You make an interesting point but i personally belive that fundamentalists react badly to change or when they are presented with a viewpoint/culture that is different to their own.

The best way to i can see for the issues of race relations to be solved or at least calmed down is understanding and patience. Not assuming that everyone who follows a faith is a fundamentalist. Treating everyone who is muslim as a criminal until proven innocent is a breach of human rights and also persecutes them.

We can tighten security measure in this country by asking for everyone to be vigilant and also by trying to deal with the bigger problem within the muslim culture. People feel threatened because their way of life is being threatend by the increasing westernisation of the world which has a tendency to destoy cultures and place it's own ideology in place of it.

The whole idea of 'A MacDonalds on every street corner in Iraq' may seem a bit OTT but it is a simple way of describing how aggressive the western culture is in tryign to dominate all other ways of life. The small group of fundamentalists within a culture will be prone to reactionary measures to this, regardless of culture or religion.

As for India, Pakistan and the like being based upon our old strcture is only because we exploited these counries for years and used their wealth to build our own empire and make the UK richer. This is another reason people in the middle east have to dislike us.

Now, at the start of a new century we are trying to dominate them once again, this time by making them want to be like our society by our aggressive methods of promoting our way of life. I can understand perfectly why a very small minority would feel helpless to do anything about their country being sucked into a culture run simply on greed. Not that this is the only reason for terrorism, envy of our society is part of it (but we are responsible for that too, since our exploitation caused their debt also).

Wilf

If you bend over backwards any further to try and justify terrorism, you'll do yourself a serious mischief!

The legacy of colonialism, plus the resentment of modern day globalisation and the spread of McDonald's simply does not justify 9/11, Bali or Madrid.

Hi Mojo
Only one thing really stuck out in Wilf's eloquent reply
Quote "Fundamentalists react badly to change"? ? ?

I still don't see why they want to change Britain.

Britain is so atheistic it makes me sick. I can accept that some people don't believe in a God, but do people who are atheists really have to condemn those who do believe in a God so much?

As for terrorism, do you really think anyone in their right mind could justify it?

Seems simple to me - - - Immigration Why? ?
Emmigrate - - why Not? ?

Hi Sidla
Talked before I think
It's not Atheism - - in sheffield - - more apathy - - not a very good word - but what I mean is that people have been content with the way things are - - -politics - - well they happen - - one lot is as bad as the other etc. - - we don't riot in the streets - - well not since the coal strikes - - we definitely don't assassinate people - - and we don't take religeon too seriously - - am I showing my age?
I am very concerned though abought the recent arrests in the south east - - - - Which was the original thread on this topic
Will shortly be able to watch BBC 24Hr news - - - - I know as a moderator you have appeared on a couple of threads - where I have taken part - - - this terrorism thing does concern me - - I do have experience from travel and work of the way some of these people think.
I do think that suspicion is enough to lock them up - -
Some person earlier mentioned "MeadowHall" - - - No Joke -

I used to always fly by Saudia - or Emirates - Gulf - - or PIA
Sheff

Originally posted by mojoworking
If you bend over backwards any further to try and justify terrorism, you'll do yourself a serious mischief!

The legacy of colonialism, plus the resentment of modern day globalisation and the spread of McDonald's simply does not justify 9/11, Bali or Madrid.

I'm not trying to excuse or justify acts of terrorism, violence and murder of any form, especially against innocent people is wrong in my eyes. All i was saying was that terrorists can see these methods as the only way they can try and seize control over their situation. I do not condone it nor could i ever reach that conclusion logically myself.

I agree no-one in their right mind would think that further violence does anything to 'pay back' a country for past transdisgressions (sp?). It is the actions of those few unhinged that cause these horrific acts of destruction.

The point i was trying to make was that the actions of a few people not in their right minds should not cause us to ostracise and prejudice against an entire culture or belief.

Originally posted by Sidla
Britain is so atheistic it makes me sick. I can accept that some people don't believe in a God, but do people who are atheists really have to condemn those who do believe in a God so much?

As for terrorism, do you really think anyone in their right mind could justify it?

I'm sorry if you thought my comments were designed to condemn all religion. Although i am not relgious myself and thus am not really able to comment about organised religion at all, the actions of a few people who are clearly out of their minds cause this resentment of religion. I do not condemn anyone for having a faith i do not myself have and it is not my place to question your beliefs.

I amend my comments to not just be critical of religion but our society where these 'out of their mind' people can cause all the harm they do.

In the end all i'm trying to say is you'll always get nutters causing problems for the rest of the world and the fact they are part of some community or faith shouldn't mean we can judge the rest of the group in a similar manner.

Wilf

Originally posted by Sidla
Britain is so atheistic it makes me sick. I can accept that some people don't believe in a God, but do people who are atheists really have to condemn those who do believe in a God so much?

As for terrorism, do you really think anyone in their right mind could justify it?

Please, let's not get into all this again.

You are free to believe anything you want, but don't condemn those who are strong enough to live their lives without the emotional crutch of religion.

Interestingly, you used the word "atheistic" to describe the people of Britain. Here are some of the more colourful definitions of that word:

depraved, evil, graceless, heathen, infidel, profane, unclean, unprincipled, wicked.

The last time I heard words like that used to describe the people of the west, they were coming out of a cave in Afghanistan.

A Moderater? ?
Nowhere did I use such words - - - I feel sad - - for anyone that does! ! !

I am sick of people blaming religion for war, terrorism and violence, blame the individual perpertrators.
Most religions are based on the philosophy of peace and love, just because some power hungry mental people use a religion to hide behind in order to legitimise their actions does not mean the religion is to blame.

Perhaps we should be thanking God (or whatever higher power) that those men were caught and hence probably hundreds of lives saved.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Similarly, while the mosques would obviously never come out and publicly condone terrorism, the muslim world is a very tight knit community and their faith borders on the fanatical. I would say that there is a lot of empathy right across the muslim world for what they see as their struggle against America and the "evil West".

Why else would the rest of the muslim world stand by and watch in mute complicity after 9/11?

I have to take issue with many of your points, mojoworking. Muslim leaders worldwide publicly condemned the attacks. If you didn't see any, can I ask what news channel you were watching?

Indeed, didn't a Saudi Prince offer to donate $10 million in disaster relief to New York city after the event, only for Rudolph Giuliani to refuse it; the Prince linked the gift with a public statement saying the American government should adopt a more balanced stance on the Palestinian cause. It seems that not upsetting the Israelis is more important to Rudolph than not upsetting his own constituents...but that's a side issue.

While I (and every Muslim I spoke to) condemned the 9/11 attacks, the view of many people (both Muslim and non-Muslim) was that this was a case of Western foreign policy reaping what it sowed. I'm sure you are aware that Osama was supplied with weapons, training and financial assistance by the CIA, and the British did the same for Saddam.

Of course, mojoworking and sheffco, please feel free to tar all Muslims with the same brush.

Originally posted by BrainThrust
I'm sorry, you seem to have a view of western religion many people don't agree with

How many wars have been waged by Christianity against Islam? or how often have Christians persecuted Jews?

Someone may claim that Christianity doesn't do this nowadays and to some extent they are right, what concerns me more is that any religion can be turned to violence, even when violence is against pretty much every code in either the Koran or the Bible.

Frankly, by thinking that Islam is the cause of all terrorism (i agree this is an assumption based upon your beliefs that mosques train people to be terrorists), and not the socio-economic factors of how the western world has exploited the rest of the world, you only fuel the problem of terrorism by contributing to the persecution now felt by the Muslim world in the last few years.

Wilf

I think that the difference is that "the West" has "fundamentally" grown out of having wars amongst itself. It’s only in the last 25 years mind, but "the East" will surely follow suit soon.

This new found maturity only came about because each side realised the total pointlessness of a conflict. The rogue nations are beginning to realise this as democracy and knowledge spreads.

Removal of the Taliban (albeit by force) has created the right political environment. Gaddafi's integration is the start of the process. It may be a bit carrot and big stick, but we can only keep our fingers crossed that more follow suit.

Originally posted by sheffco
Education - - - I mean in the mosques - - not our schools - - Am I a fanatic ? - - No
But what sensible country and government - - allows these people to preach death and destruction - - - In the name of "Human Rights" ? ?
They are not persecuted in Britain.
If they wish to preach a "Jehad" - - - do it in islamic countries - - -

You are right! It is about time someone stood up to be counted, I am sick to death of these idiots bleating about the poor Muslim misguided terrorists who are engaged in a holy war!!! every young Muslim is a potential threat to us and our families,

When will the Government wake up and stop these people coming into the country.

Oh dear Mr anonymous regulator, I suppose I have blotted my copy book again, will you now remove my post immediately as you have done over and over again!!!!!!

Originally posted by halevan
every young Muslim is a potential threat to us and our families,


My three sons are aged 3 years, 15 months and six weeks.

Potential threat? Err yeah... :roll:

You could also argue that every young white person is a potential threat to you and your families...sadly you do suffer from selective amnesia when it comes to the sins of your kind.

Happy retirement, Hal

Originally posted by Abdul
I have to take issue with many of your points, mojoworking. Muslim leaders worldwide publicly condemned the attacks. If you didn't see any, can I ask what news channel you were watching?

Indeed, didn't a Saudi Prince offer to donate $10 million in disaster relief to New York city after the event, only for Rudolph Giuliani to refuse it; the Prince linked the gift with a public statement saying the American government should adopt a more balanced stance on the Palestinian cause. It seems that not upsetting the Israelis is more important to Rudolph than not upsetting his own constituents...but that's a side issue.

While I (and every Muslim I spoke to) condemned the 9/11 attacks, the view of many people (both Muslim and non-Muslim) was that this was a case of Western foreign policy reaping what it sowed. I'm sure you are aware that Osama was supplied with weapons, training and financial assistance by the CIA, and the British did the same for Saddam.

Of course, mojoworking and sheffco, please feel free to tar all Muslims with the same brush.

So America got what it deserved on 9/11 because it "was a case of Western foreign policy reaping what it sowed"? Nice call!

Of course the Saudis condemned 9/11 because, as possibly the most "westernised" Arab Muslim country, they know exactly which side their bread is buttered. Hence the constant stream of Saudi princes flying over to London for their weekly intake of alcohol, gambling and expensive whores, all of which are against Muslim law, I believe?

As for the rest of the Muslim countries: some paid lip service to condemning the attacks, others trotted out your line above - ie "America had it coming", but as I said earlier, the rest simply stood by and watched in mute complicity.

Originally posted by Abdul
My three sons are aged 3 years, 15 months and six weeks.

Six weeks! Did you tell us, I don't remember seeing a thread celebrating this. Congratulations to you and your wife. I hope she is well.:banana: :clap: :D :headbang: :thumbsup:

You must forgive Hal, he's a relic of a bygone age and I think I must be the anonymous regulator to whom he refers. Though how he can say I'm anonymous I don't know 'cos I always PM to tell him why I've deleted his subtle diatribes against whichever target he takes offence on a particular day.

Hal, I've left this one in because it made me laugh.

Abdul, once again congratulations.:thumbsup:

I don't think Abdul was saying that America got what it deserved, what he said is true, after 9/11 there was a feeling of understanding that America has been causing too much damage in too many places for far too long without being answerable to anyone else (look at how they went to invade Iraq, ignoring the UN) but that does not mean 9/11 is excuable in any way whatsoever.

Originally posted by mojoworking
So America got what it deserved on 9/11 because it "was a case of Western foreign policy reaping what it sowed"? Nice call!

Where did I say America deserved it? You assume too much. I said it was a case of American foreign policy reaping what it sowed.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Of course the Saudis condemned 9/11 because, as possibly the most "westernised" Arab Muslim country, they know exactly which side their bread is buttered. Hence the constant stream of Saudi princes flying over to London for their weekly intake of alcohol, gambling and expensive whores, all of which are against Muslim law, I believe?

Yes, those things are against Muslim law, but what have they to do with the topic in point? If you want to start a new thread about those, then please do, where we can discuss Bill Clinton's adultery and that of members of the British Government.

Originally posted by mojoworking
As for the rest of the Muslim countries: some paid lip service to condemning the attacks, others trotted out your line above - ie "America had it coming", but as I said earlier, the rest simply stood by and watched in mute complicity.

OK, now we're getting somewhere...you've gone from 'Muslim leaders standing by silently' to 'Muslim leaders paying lip service'. In a couple of months, you might even the acknowledge Muslim leaders who are fighting against Al Qaeda.

Originally posted by elf
I don't think Abdul was saying that America got what it deserved, what he said is true, after 9/11 there was a feeling of understanding that America has been causing too much damage in too many places for far too long without being answerable to anyone else (look at how they went to invade Iraq, ignoring the UN) but that does not mean 9/11 is excuable in any way whatsoever.

But if you're not trying to excuse 9/11, what is the point of saying things like "there was a feeling of understanding that America has been causing too much damage in too many places for far too long".

Reading between the lines, that still says "America had it coming" to me.

Do you not think the American government has done wrong?

Originally posted by Abdul
Where did I say America deserved it? You assume too much. I said it was a case of American foreign policy reaping what it sowed.

You're back peddling now. What else does "reaping what it sowed" mean if not "got what they deserved"?

[i]Yes, those things are against Muslim law, but what have they to do with the topic in point? If you want to start a new thread about those, then please do, where we can discuss Bill Clinton's adultery and that of members of the British Government.[/B]

The difference is, Bill Clinton and the Tories don't live their lives according to strict religious laws. The things they did are not illegal in the USA or UK (even the bit with the orange and the black bin liner). It was a flippant point, made to show that Saudi is in the pocket of the West and would condem even their fellow Muslims in order to keep the US dollars coming in

[i]OK, now we're getting somewhere...you've gone from 'Muslim leaders standing by silently' to 'Muslim leaders paying lip service'. In a couple of months, you might even the acknowledge Muslim leaders who are fighting against Al Qaeda. [/B]

There are a lot of countries in the Muslim world. Some paid lip service (mostly those who need American hand-outs), the rest stood back and said nothing.

Originally posted by elf
Do you not think the American government has done wrong?

Of course they have, but does that give religious fanatics the right to try and kill the likes of you and me?

Sheff again - - - - - I posted the topic because I wanted to speak about self or otherwise educated terrorists in our midst.
They certainly are'nt educated this way in state schools.
I had no choice in their former national connections - - - or religion
The point is - - - Do all you bleeding hearts out there still support them ?
I say Blunket is right - - - suspicion is enough - - to detain and determine their intentions.

Well thats what I said, America has done wrong but there is no excuse for 9/11.

Originally posted by elf
Well thats what I said, America has done wrong but there is no excuse for 9/11.

But by putting the two thing together in the same sentence, the one excuses the other.

A little side story - - - Once while recce-ing a route across part of the Rub Al Khali - - - - Saudi Arabia - - - - I drove out of the dunes - to see a whole crew of Philipino road layers - - bulldozers - graders - tarmacers etc.
I was told by the head Ganger - - the local prince wanted to visit his village - - But in his Rolls Royce - - thats why they were building the road. It was about 60 miles long - - - back to the black-top! !
I was grateful for the smooth ride

Saudi's have paid Bin Laden - - to leave them alone.
A regime - far more despotic than any old colonial power - -
However - - under their laws - - these detainees would now be under torturous interrogation - - threat of instant execution - - mutilation - - - Hands off suspects? ?

[i] Saudi's have paid Bin Laden - - to leave them alone.
A regime - far more despotic than any old colonial power - -
However - - under their laws - - these detainees would now be under torturous interrogation - - threat of instant execution - - mutilation - - - Hands off suspects? ? [/B]

You're probably spot on there sheffco, but sadly that kind of talk will get you branded a racist on this forum.

I've been called all kinds of thing in my time Mojo!
I usually call it as I see it
Worked hard for my living - - - seen a lot of things - - - - Sounds like "Old Man River" - - more like Willie Nelson really
Still get back to my point - - - this is britain - and I like it - - - if ANY people want a different culture or religion - - then there are other places - with often that culture or religion in place.
Democracy means - - votes - - not bombs

Originally posted by mojoworking
You're probably spot on there sheffco, but sadly that kind of talk will get you branded a racist on this forum.

For which bit would you expect the branding as a racist?

Max - - In the knowledge of getting thrown off - - - I'll quote your signature ---"Talk sense - - - - - - -- "
I have done a lot of good works in Africa - - trained all kinds of people of all kinds of race and religion - - - Admitedly I worked for a salary - - - not for a creed or belief
I still say - - change their own country - Not mine

I think the news programs on tv at the moment are backing most of my opinions

Originally posted by sheffco
Saudi's have paid Bin Laden - - to leave them alone.
A regime - far more despotic than any old colonial power ...

And unfortunatley funded by the UK and US in days gone past... or has everyone forgotten the 'culling' the british made of the indiginous population as recently as 100 years ago...?

I also doubt Saudi's have paid Bin Laden anything to leave them alone, as there have been several terror attacks within the Saudi Capital, Rhyad.

One of my best mates is a Muslim and it is absolutley ridiculous (and indeed childish) to assume that ALL muslims are in some way responsible for the attacks.

It's like saying all Irish people are terrorists.

Incidentally, I was horrified and disgusted by the terror attack of 9/11, but I wasn't surprised. I thought that after the whole Vietnam episode the American Government would have learnt, but it obviously hadn't, as they did and continue to stick their oar in where it's not wanted. As for the Iraq war - what the **** did that have to do with terrorists?? *cough* scapegoats *cough*

If you think of the 'westernisation' of the world in reverse, how unhappy would you be to see eastern culture taking over the UK...? Oh, wait a minute, that's what you're all whinging about at the moment, isn't it...

Originally posted by sheffco
Max - - In the knowledge of getting thrown off - - - I'll quote your signature ---"Talk sense - - - - - - -- "
I have done a lot of good works in Africa - - trained all kinds of people of all kinds of race and religion - - - Admitedly I worked for a salary - - - not for a creed or belief
I still say - - change their own country - Not mine

I'm sorry, I've no idea what you're talking about. Is English your first language or something you've picked up on your travels?

I was merely asking mojo which bits of your gibberish he considered racist.

Funded by the UK and USA?
Oil mate that's the product - - - - Gave Opec the power - - - gave these despotic rulers their wealth - - - we just were the people who developed it - - admitedly for salary - - -
Most of the people who want to change the world - - - are the HAVE NOT'S - - - - Not the Have's - - - - Why try and change a way of life - - because you don't agree with it - - Envy? ?

Sheffco - - you're talking rubbish - - I think the reason we gave power to OPEC - - was that is was their oil - - there was no salary - - check with your history teacher - -

Oh, and my point? Let me just make it again.

Originally posted by Agent Dan
If you think of the 'westernisation' of the world in reverse, how unhappy would you be to see eastern culture taking over the UK...? Oh, wait a minute, that's what you're all whinging about at the moment, isn't it...

Max - - as I've been trying to say throughout this thread - - I'm British - - my mother tongue is English - - though I do speak a couple of other languages - - - I am no great intellectual - - - just the university of life - - - to call some of my comments "Gibberish"? - - well I didn't give such offense to anyone - -
I say again - - - most of the news programs appear to agree with my concerns

Dan - - - -I worked there mate - - - we found it - - developed it - - - Mainly the ethnics - - were very happy to sit back and reap the income
We trained them - - - very difficult - - - we did jobs they were not qualified to do.
However - - we are off the topic - - - - - This is britain
Are we now training and teaching them to bomb us? ? ?

Originally posted by sheffco
Dan - - - -I worked there mate - - -

I was referring to the colonial era. You'd need to be well over 100 years old to have worked there, then.

Originally posted by sheffco
This is britain - Are we now training and teaching them to bomb us? ? ?

Yes. We sold them the guns, trained them in the "art of war" and then provided them with enough reasons to make us a target.

Nearly that age - - was in at the beginning of the oil boom - - - many countries - - - - many economies aided - - even helped with Geldorfs "Feed the world - - - - Unfortunately - - a lot of that generated income - - was spent on exporting terrorism.

I find that reasonably hard to believe. I sincerely doubt that the Live Aid funds were spent on terrorism. If you are so 'up' on the subject why did you not go public with your findings? incredible that you would expect people to belive you without proof.

Not specifically said that live aid funds were spent - - - - though I did used to buy food aid donated stock in the markets - - to feed my labour force - - - provided transport for them to take it home to their village - - - - who was selling it? - - - did I care - - - I probably distibuted more than ox-fam.
Back to the topic - - - - are our benefits now fundind terrorism in Britain?

Originally posted by Agent Dan
If you think of the 'westernisation' of the world in reverse, how unhappy would you be to see eastern culture taking over the UK...? Oh, wait a minute, that's what you're all whinging about at the moment, isn't it...

My main point again, just to remind you, as you've yet to acknowledge it. And what does 'our benefits' refer to?

Your topic, incidentally, is Nationalism, not whether we in Britain are funding terrorists (or whatever your last post means)

Originally posted by sheffco
I still say - - change their own country - Not mine

... which is exactly what the terrorists are trying to stop ...

Sorry Dan - - - my topic was Nationalism - as you say - - - My point is - - what do we do with "British" terrorists? ? - - - -there have been a few digressions throughout the thread - - usually to do with other countries.
University of life is a great educator.

Originally posted by mojoworking
You're back peddling now. What else does "reaping what it sowed" mean if not "got what they deserved"?

Meaning the US Government brought it upon themselves by creating the menace that is Osama Bin Laden and implementing anti-democratic policies in the Middle East. If you take that to mean civilians should pay the price for the misdeeds of their rulers, then feel free to read it incorrectly.

You appear to take any criticism of American foreign policy as an excuse for the 9/11 atrocities - and that's very wrong.

Originally posted by mojoworking
...Saudi is in the pocket of the West and would condem even their fellow Muslims in order to keep the US dollars coming in

I agree with you here - it's another example of what I wrote above about the US Government implementing anti-democratic policies in the Middle East.

Sheff - - - anyone want to go to the chat room?

Originally posted by max
For which bit would you expect the branding as a racist?

I would have bet money that the bit about cutting off hands would have started a furore and brought forth cries of "racist" from the more, er, delicate members of the forum.

Good job I'm not a gambler.

Mojo - - - you must notice - - I try to stay away from ethnic terms - - True though - - -If you are wandering through the square - - in a certain country - - Friday afternoon - - - the religious police will order you to watch ! ! Horrifying sometimes.
The "Peace Gardens" could become a whole new spectacle.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I would have bet money that the bit about cutting off hands would have started a furore and brought forth cries of "racist" from the more, er, delicate members of the forum.

Good job I'm not a gambler.

I wouldn't have thought that cutting off hands for crime was race related more to do with having a legal system which hasn't evolved. If I'm not mistaken we used to cut off limbs, ears, etc., in this country until we entered a more enlightened time.

As to what we do with suspected British terrorists surely they should be treated the same as any other suspect? That is, considered innocent until proven guilty. As my point above illustrates, we have moved on from the days where a person was punished without having full recourse to the law.

My point entirely - - - I don't condone these punishments - - but I have been there - - I could leave my car unlocked - - my radio and GPS on the seat - - keys in the ignition - - - - - It was left untouched- - - - - - -? ? ?
But do we want that type of culture -?
Still on the thread - - - demanded by threat and force?

Am I to assume, having ploughed through some appalling drivel, that Sheffco is saying thus

"Because 8 British muslim men have been arrested today on suspicions of terrorism, and some stuff has been found that could be used to make bombs (was it fertliser of some kind? I forget), then we must question the presence here of all the other muslims. All muslims must henceforth be considered to be risky little buggers who must obviously now be suspect. All muslims, but particularly the ones from Asia, should now go and live in the country their ancestors came from."

I think that was the gist of it

Would that be right Sheffco?

Oh I forgot, "......and we shouldnt be paying muslims benefits either". Presumably muslims have some other special way of keeping the wolf from the door? or wouldnt you care about that? and when you say "young muslims", would that include students and school children for instance? And would that include third anf fourth generation young muslims?

Would that be right Sheffco?

If they are guilty of plotting a terrorist act in this country then I hope they are found guilty and sent to prison, after an intense interrogation that might reveal any info about any other plots or plotters. If they are, you can be sure it will be all over the press

If they turn out to be not guilty, I bet you wont hear a word about their innocence.

I cannot bear terrorism, I cannot bear those who indiscriminately kill innocent people in their political war

I also cannot bear those who decide that because Johnny Adair was a violent terrorist, so must be all protestants.

Or that because Hitler was a facist, so must be all short blokes from Austria.

Please can you send me an address where I can mail the white pillow case to

Thanks

Sheff - - Oh dear - - - Did I really ask for that one?
I am trying to be fair - - I am asking about british suspects - - others have mentioned the links - - - I am talking about sheffield - - - The sub-ways - the super tram - - the ponds forge - - all are open to possible attack - - -
I was in the forces - - when I was trained - - I was not promised paradise and martydom - - - just maybe a medal - - - that is the difference.

Before we all get our knickers in a twist about muslim bombers... can I just say.... Oklahoma.

Let's start again - - - the topic - - or debate - - is about what do we do about "British" suspected terrorists?
Why are they here ?
Why do they want to destroy - or change our way of life?

Fair comment Tony - - - - But we are in britain - - and things like Oklahoma have to be prevented

Originally posted by sheffco
Let's start again - - - the topic - - or debate - - is about what do we do about "British" suspected terrorists?
Why are they here ?
Why do they want to destroy - or change our way of life?

Am I in your iggy box?

Are you ignoring my post because you dont know how to answer it?

No belle - - no iggy box - - - I somtimes just hit the wrong button - - - Bit old you see

Belle - - - love the Lava lamp

Right, Can we just say, that no one likes terrorism. I think we are all agreed on that point. But to link terrorists to any religion or race seems a bit far fetched. As I mentioned earlier about the IRA, just because the Ira happened to be catholic, doesn't mean that you can blame catholicism for the acts of violence that they have carried out. In the same way you can't blame muslims for the acts of some individuals who happen to be muslim.
I get the impression that that you want to stop any immigration to this country sheffco. Ideally when do you think we should have started banning immigration? 10years ago, 100years, 2000 years. And do we ban anyone from immigrating, like the irish, the swiss, the dutch? With out people moving to this country for the past thousands of years, i doubt any of us would be here. i know I wouldn't be here. Would be a very different place indeed.

I'm just Sheff - - like others - - wish we lived in a better world - -
I don't seek to change it - - just like it the way it is - - - - will try to preserve it though - - - -
Don't want terrorism here - - - any prevention by the government is allowed - - - In my book

I do think, at the risk of being stopped from speaking my mind in the future on this board, that muslims would dearly love Great Britian to be a muslim state and to change laws religion etc. to suit themselves. Not just terrorists but ALL muslims if they could be honest about it. They dont agree with women being uncovered in public(even european women), alcohol or gambling although cigarettes and alcohol may be sold to non muslims by muslim shopkeepers to under age children it seems theres lots of proof on this one if you read the court reports.
You just dont get all these problems from other cultures i.e. Chinese, Sikh, Jehovahs,Mormons etc. And lets not forget the Jews without whos culture some of the best music, cleverest bankers and brilliant scientists would not exist. They have changed the world in a positive way and do not ram Judaism down the throat of the average Englishman.

agreed, preventing terrorism is fine. We've been trying to do it for decades, and i'm sure we'll continue to. Unfortunately, I think it'll be a long time till terrorism is completely wiped out. It's sad that i can't emember a time in my life when it didn't exist. Even as a child i can remember bombings being reported in the news every week. It's a risk that is part of our world these days, wherever you live.

Originally posted by dragonsoup
I do think, at the risk of being stopped from speaking my mind in the future on this board, that muslims would dearly love Great Britian to be a muslim state and to change laws religion etc. to suit themselves. Not just terrorists but ALL muslims if they could be honest about it. They dont agree with women being uncovered in public(even european women), alcohol or gambling although cigarettes and alcohol may be sold to non muslims by muslim shopkeepers to under age children it seems theres lots of proof on this one if you read the court reports.
You just dont get all these problems from other cultures i.e. Chinese, Sikh, Jehovahs,Mormons etc.

Once again, someone takes some individual examples and then blames the whole faith. I can honestly say that not one muslim that i know wants to change the faith of this country. You have no grounds to say that other than some paranoia that you seem to have developed. No one is going to change the faith of anyone. There are a lot of different faiths in this country, and the vast majority of people are happy in their own faith and accept others. Of course there are a few who preach that they are right, but from experience they can be of any faith.

Dragon - - - I have watched little girls on planes being sent for arranged marriages - - - - I have seen grown women - - appear from the rear of the plane dressed in mini-skirts and heels - - - remarkable changes - - - - All part of the different ideas - - - nothing to do with British citizens planning bombs

Can you explain that sheff, i'm not sure i follow you.

Home truths fom a scouse,
Ask Abby about scousers or view his website which he used to have a link for I think.
Sheffco obviously it is to do with terrorism, they want to change the west into a version of the east complete with dole money,

Can you explain the scouse thing. Sorry if i'm being ignorant, but i have no idea what you mean.
If you really believe that every muslim in this country is trying to change our socirty, you'd best go and hide somewhere to keep safe. I've generally not found anyone trying to stuff their beliefs down my throat. I'm glad i haven't got that paranoia, as my life wouldn't be very good if I did.

It's amazing. While everybody's been watching terrorists and immigrants our country, England that is, has been slowly stolen from us.

This article from The Observer will explain what I'm on about:

The new elite (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,1179333,00.html)

Here's an extract:

The English seem to have been defeated in their own country, and imperialism has gone into reverse as former colonials have returned in triumph to the home country. Australians, South Africans and Canadians invade London to scale the citadels of power, ignoring the hierarchies of the natives and racing to the top. The South Africans have risen quickly to the peaks of business and the law; Australians have penetrated the media; a Canadian, Conrad Black, owned the Daily Telegraph for 15 years; one former Rhodesian, Gavyn Davies was chairman of the BBC until earlier this year, another, Sir Michael Walker, heads the armed forces. An Afrikaner, Jan du Plessis, chairs British American Tobacco. Another, Johan Steyn, is a respected law lord. Two other law lords are South African.


So, while our backs were turned it's been the white ex-colonial immigrants who've been the problem all along.

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Sheff - - seems like the subject is getting away again
Max is trying hard - - - but the people he is quoting about were once British - - many have still got british passports.
I know - - I worked with many of them

Going off thread is bad news but you say you are from Liverpool, so scouse it is then. Im not paranoid. Anyway keep to the thread if you will ( or go see the union about it and go on strike).

Originally posted by sheffco

Max is trying hard - - - but the people he is quoting about were once British - - many have still got british passports.
I know - - I worked with many of them

But the people you're talking about are British now and have got British passports.

You really can't see it can you?

To Andy - - - I know where you are coming from - - - Christian Brothers educated - was I
It is not a question of religion - - - Its a matter of the preaching

Max - - - I can see it - - - - they are british passport holder - suspected terrorists - - - we already sent two to israel - - - the real question is - - what do we do with them - - and the possible many others

on GMTV this morning, they interviewed a muslim shopkeeper in London who has lived in this country for 40 years. he said that 9/11 was nothing to do with Al Qaeda but the CIA had masterminded the whole thing to discredit whoever (i didn't catch this bit). something about bombs planted in the basement by the CIA, which is why the buildings crumbled from the bottom. who exactly is responsible for this type of brainwashing?

Originally posted by dragonsoup
Home truths fom a scouse,
Ask Abby about scousers or view his website which he used to have a link for I think.
Sheffco obviously it is to do with terrorism, they want to change the west into a version of the east complete with dole money,


Never mind going off thread, I was just asking you to clear up your comment, as it didn't seem entirely relevant.
Anyways, off to watch football. no doubt this will carry on for a while.

To killian - - - Like the bombings in Riyahd - - - booze merchants?

Originally posted by Abdul
Yes, those things are against Muslim law, but what have they to do with the topic in point? If you want to start a new thread about those, then please do, where we can discuss Bill Clinton's adultery and that of members of the British Government.


As I understand it, isn't adultery punishable by death under Muslim law?

A couple of years ago I saw a TV documentary about white, British women who had converted to Muslim.

There was one girl from Sheffield who had married a chap from Yemen. She had swallowed the Muslim faith hook, line and sinker. She even took to wearing the full Muslim get-up and was spouting the Koran as if she'd been doing it all her life.

Some of you may remember her, as she drove a bus in Sheffield.

She quite happily sat there and argued that people who commit adultery deserved to die, because it was part of "Muslim law".

And there were many more like her in the TV programme. Some of them were talking about going to live in the middle east, because England was too "decadent" for them.

Ask yourself. If a terrorist attack were being planned in the UK (as seemed likely earlier this week with the arrests in London), whose side do you think that girl would be on?

The scary part is, there are many more like her living in the UK.

oh ffs, can we please stop giving the odd example and judging a whole race/religion on it. I'm starting to get quite offended by this ******, because a lot of my close friends are muslim. As much as i've been trying to ignore whats been said, I'm starting to take it quite personally. When you start suggesting that all muslims are responsible for extremist terrorist ways, the more i'm going to take it personally. If you want to say that certain people cause trouble and they happen to be muslim, fine. reading between the lines though, it seems that you are blaming the whole muslim faith. therefore you are including close friends of mine, which i will obviously get upset by. you may as well start taking a pop at me too (please feel free to, i'm up for it).
I'm getting some really fascist views coming across on this thread, and to be honest, you may as be well terrorists yourselves for the hate that you seem to hold for inncoent human beings. F**k using religion as an excuse, people who cause pain in this world are evil, it has nothing to do with their religion.
Oh and dragonsoup, seriously, is your life really that affected by different religions and cultures. I really think you need to realx a bit and stop getting so worried about our country being taken over. By the way, where are you ancestors from? Do you really believe that your ancestory is based purely in this country. I doubt it is. if you follow it back, you will probably find that you're from somewhere else other than britain, like the rest of us. Deal with it and stop getting so worried. I'm sure it'll all be ok

Originally posted by Andy78
oh ffs, can we please stop giving the odd example and judging a whole race/religion on it. I'm starting to get quite offended by this ******, because a lot of my close friends are muslim. As much as i've been trying to ignore whats been said, I'm starting to take it quite personally. When you start suggesting that all muslims are responsible for extremist terrorist ways, the more i'm going to take it personally. If you want to say that certain people cause trouble and they happen to be muslim, fine. reading between the lines though, it seems that you are blaming the whole muslim faith. therefore you are including close friends of mine, which i will obviously get upset by. you may as well start taking a pop at me too (please feel free to, i'm up for it).
I'm getting some really fascist views coming across on this thread, and to be honest, you may as be well terrorists yourselves for the hate that you seem to hold for inncoent human beings. F**k using religion as an excuse, people who cause pain in this world are evil, it has nothing to do with their religion.
Oh and dragonsoup, seriously, is your life really that affected by different religions and cultures. I really think you need to realx a bit and stop getting so worried about our country being taken over. By the way, where are you ancestors from? Do you really believe that your ancestory is based purely in this country. I doubt it is. if you follow it back, you will probably find that you're from somewhere else other than britain, like the rest of us. Deal with it and stop getting so worried. I'm sure it'll all be ok

Funny how the level of debate always degenerates into swearing and playground level name-calling ("you'd better not have a go at my friends, or else!") when the argument isn't going your way. Is that the best you can do?

Instead of going off on one, why not put forward a reasoned case explaining exactly why you think it's justifiable that adultery is punishable by death under Muslim law. Or better still explain why most Muslims feel that America brought 9/11 on itself and therefore got what it deserved.

I'd like to hear the answers to those questions

Originally posted by max
But the people you're talking about are British now and have got British passports.

You really can't see it can you?

But the people YOU'RE talking about have brought wealth and employment to Britain and have integrated into society.

They haven't set up ghettos from where they try to erode the British way of life from within (or give succor to those who would wish to do so)

Originally posted by mojoworking
Instead of going off on one, why not put forward a reasoned case explaining exactly why you think it's justifiable that adultery is punishable by death under Muslim law.


Because adultery is a grevious sin that breaks up marriages, destroys families and therefore has a severe impact on society. That's why God orders those who commit adultery to be punished by death. Please open up your bible to The Book of Leviticus, Chapter 20:10 -

'And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.'

But you remain silent on the bibles interpretation. It's funny how the 'master white race' suffers from selective amnesia when criticising those of a different culture, race or religion. But that's OK; I'm used to it on this forum now.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Or better still explain why most Muslims feel that America brought 9/11 on itself and therefore got what it deserved.


I did tell you on several occasions that America created the menaces that are Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, and has an anti-democratic Middle East policy, but you haven't been paying attention have you? Do you only get Fox news coverage over there?

Originally posted by mojoworking
I'd like to hear the answers to those questions


I hope you're satisfied with the answers, although I'm sure you won't be. No doubt you'll again be asking 'why do Muslims say that America got what it deserved' in the next 30 minutes.

I have noticed the way you twist debates and turn them into a thinly veiled attack on Islam and Arab culture. I'd call that racism, but I don't want to be accused of playing the race card.

Originally posted by Abdul
[B]Because adultery is a grevious sin that breaks up marriages, destroys families and therefore has a severe impact on society. That's why God orders those who commit adultery to be punished by death. Please open up your bible to The Book of Leviticus, Chapter 20:10 -

'And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.'

But you remain silent on the bibles interpretation. It's funny how the 'master white race' suffers from selective amnesia when criticising those of a different culture, race or religion. But that's OK; I'm used to it on this forum now.]

Nice to hear you finally admit it.

I seriously doubt that you'd find many Christians who give much credence to that fire & brimstone old testament stuff. So the parallel doesn't really work.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I seriously doubt that you'd find many Christians who give much credence to that fire & brimstone old testament stuff. So the parallel doesn't really work.

So it's just another example of the 'master white race' twisting things to suit their own ends?

Originally posted by dragonsoup
And lets not forget the Jews without whos culture some of the best music, cleverest bankers and brilliant scientists would not exist. They have changed the world in a positive way and do not ram Judaism down the throat of the average Englishman.

That's fair comment, but I don't see muslims ramming Islam down the throat of the average Englishman either.

Originally posted by Abdul
So it's just another example of the 'master white race' twisting things to suit their own ends?

I never said that, mate. It's got nothing to do with race. Not as far as I'm concerned, anyway. You're reading things into this that aren't there.

I can understand that you would feel a certain empathy with people who share your faith, but with all this anti-American stuff, you're trying to defend the indefensible.

I've lost count of the number of times this has been said, but no matter how much America's foreign policy provoked the situation, nothing excuses 9/11, Bali and Madrid.

Sheff - - - Right in there with you Mojo - - - seems like a couple of religious types are spouting off - - - - I don't care what religion they belong to - - - I was asking what we do about British - - who plan to bomb and injure - in order to impose their own idea of culture - - - - ?

Originally posted by sheffco
Sheff - - - Right in there with you Mojo - - - seems like a couple of religious types are spouting off

You attack my beliefs so I have to defend them. What do you expect me to do? Give them up, go drink alcohol and commit adultery? Would you treat me as an 'equal briton' then? :roll:

Originally posted by sheffco
- - - - I don't care what religion they belong to - - - I was asking what we do about British - - who plan to bomb and injure - in order to impose their own idea of culture - - - - ?

If you don't care what religion they belong to, perhaps you'd care to read through your previous posts - which mention nothing except Arabs, Muslims and terrorists.

Oh dear, is your selective amnesia kicking in again...

Sheff again - - - Unfortunately - - - the press - - the news programs - - - - the world - - - - are mentioning - - - the nationality (of Origin) - - the beliefs - - and the creed of the suspected terrorists - - - - I think if you really read through the posts - - - One or two others have brought up the religios persecution bit

Sheff - - - -- To all believers - - all non believers
I do drink - - and I fornicate - - when possible - - I am the father of many children - - - - - - -
Does that make me a target - - for terrorists - - -here in Britain?

Originally posted by sheffco
Sheff - - - Right in there with you Mojo - - - seems like a couple of religious types are spouting off - - - - I don't care what religion they belong to - - - I was asking what we do about British - - who plan to bomb and injure - in order to impose their own idea of culture - - - - ?

It's like I keep saying Sheff, if a terrorist attack were being planned in the UK (as seemed likely earlier this week with the arrests in London), which side would the British Muslims take? Their country or their faith?

As I understand it, those arrested were British citizens, so they were presumably part of a much larger network.

Before the apologists jump in on this one, just stop and think for a minute: these were BRITISH citizens, allegedly planning some kind of terrorist bomb attack on BRITAIN.

Originally posted by mojoworking
...They haven't set up ghettos from where they try to erode the British way of life from within...

Um... you're talking out of your arse, mate. No offense meant, but you obviously have no idea about the formation of ghettos post WWII. I think you'll find that they didn't 'set them up' so much as move to an area with low costs housing. And I think the purpose of living in this country, originally, was nothing to do with any of the exisiting residents. Check your facts before spouting off, otherwise your argument will not stand up.

Sheff - - As I say mojo - - - I'm not into race or religion - - - Good and bad on both sides there - -- The teaching is the thing - - - and where is it happening ?
We don't need it here at home - - - Blunket is right - - supress it - -lock them up - - - deport them - - - White - Or coffee coloured! !

Originally posted by mojoworking
these were BRITISH citizens, allegedly planning some kind of terrorist bomb attack on BRITAIN.

Why are you so surprised? The british have bombed/attacked their own in the past. There were germans who fought against the Nazis in WWII, and Italians that fought Mussolini - would you expect them to behave like their countrymen just because they were told to? I know it's an extreme example, but from the 'terrorists' perspective, that's what it looks like.

Originally posted by Agent Dan
Um... you're talking out of your arse, mate. No offense meant, but you obviously have no idea about the formation of ghettos post WWII. I think you'll find that they didn't 'set them up' so much as move to an area with low costs housing. And I think the purpose of living in this country, originally, was nothing to do with any of the exisiting residents. Check your facts before spouting off, otherwise your argument will not stand up.

A minor point of semantics. Whether they set them up or the ghettos grew for other reasons, it hardly destroys the argument.

Well, I think it's slightly more than semantics (but then I would, cos I wrote it). I do not see how you can judge all members of any group (religion/race/country or culture) by the acts of the few. I appreciate that some of them may be nasty pieces of work, but then so are a lot of "british" people.

I fail to see how the work of muslim fundamentalists (definitely a group of dangerous people) are any worse than christian fundamentalists (also definitely a group of dangerous people) - I belive mention has been made of the oklahoma nail-bomber?

Would you expect *all* British people to hold exactly the same views?

I'm with Sheff in many ways - treat all terrorists with extreme caution. I do not think that the media should focus on origin or race or religion when reporting these events.

Oh and a word on the 2/3/4th generation muslims in this country if I may? Most of them are no different to any other british citizen, paying mild homage to a religion their fathers follow - same as christians.

If you don't agree with me you never will - all I ask is that you seriously think about your viewpoint, and where it comes from - personal experience? Upbringing? or just media stories?

Replace the words Great Britain with TAKE IT UP THE A**E but dont complain. I wasnt going to get involved in this because im sick and tired, literraly tired, of reading and seeing the constant **** taking that Britain now puts up with and everyone just tuts and goes about there business so as not to offend anyone. We have the glorious innocent lads return from Cuba, welcomed with open arms after all it was only a holiday they were on when they got caught up in the goings on, what bull**it. Then the latest suspects. it turns out most of them attend the same mosque which is well known for its extremists , so why not shut the bloody thing down ages ago, someone needs some balls before it is too late then everyone will be tutting even louder.

Originally posted by mojoworking
As I understand it, those arrested were British citizens, so they were presumably part of a much larger network.

Before the apologists jump in on this one, just stop and think for a minute: these were BRITISH citizens, allegedly planning some kind of terrorist bomb attack on BRITAIN.

And there are British citizens that bomb, maim, torture, rape, murder, shoot, gas, stab, etc, etc, etc.

They get dealt with in exactly the same way that these latest suspects will be dealt with.

What's the difference, why are you so up in arms about the latest arrests? Ah yes.. that's it... they aren't "proper" Britains, and they're black. That must be it eh?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Before the apologists jump in on this one, just stop and think for a minute: these were BRITISH citizens, allegedly planning some kind of terrorist bomb attack on BRITAIN.

Would that be like the UVF and the UFF and the Real IRA and the IRA then?

British citizens who actually carried out terrorist bomb attacks in Britain?

How is this new?

Bad, of course, but not new

Originally posted by mojoworking
It's like I keep saying Sheff, if a terrorist attack were being planned in the UK (as seemed likely earlier this week with the arrests in London), which side would the British Muslims take? Their country or their faith?

As I understand it, those arrested were British citizens, so they were presumably part of a much larger network.

Before the apologists jump in on this one, just stop and think for a minute: these were BRITISH citizens, allegedly planning some kind of terrorist bomb attack on BRITAIN.

Firstly, i apologise for the poor structure of my last post. As you can probably tell, i'd had a few drinks. I probably should keep off the forum when intoxicated.

I fail to see how you are still bringing in all the british muslims, just because a few terrorists are muslim. I really don't know of any muslim in britain that supports death and destruction in their country. Sorry to reitterate the same point again, but as everyone else seems to be going round in circles, I may as well too. In the same respect, I don't know of any catholic who supports the destruction caused by the IRA and other factions. Icidentally, the latter being responsible for numerous bombings on this country throughout my lifetime. I can't actually recall the last terrorist attack on this country by an invividual or group that happaned to be muslim. Not that the religion has anything to do with it, but still.

Edit-

sorry belle, think i was typing a similar point there at the same time.

(It is a good job I dont run this Forum, that is all I can say. It would be much less fun, cos I would have half of the members expelled.)

So, let me recap, 8 British Muslim blokes do bad things (allegedly) so now, according to Sheffco and pals, all British Muslims must be bad and need sending off somewhere.

Last night I watched a programme about several white British men who were paedophiles. I think I saw about five of them altogther, who were found guilty of various offences against children.

As a result of the example that Sheffco and others have set, using this sample as a realistic marker, I now declare that all white British men are potential paedophiles and demand that they are sent out of this country to live in Asia somewhere.

And we should take their benefits off them

Cheers

Bye

:wave:

Originally posted by Belle

So, let me recap, 8 British Muslim blokes do bad things (allegedly) so now, according to Sheffco and pals, all British Muslims must be bad and need sending off somewhere.


Hmm, in a way it would be like cleansing the country of all the impurities. What could we call the remaining population? Maybe the aryan race. It's got a ring to it hasn't it? sounds familiar though, wonder where we've heard it before?

Originally posted by Belle
(It is a good job I dont run this Forum, that is all I can say. It would be much less fun, cos I would have half of the members expelled.)

So, let me recap, 8 British Muslim blokes do bad things (allegedly) so now, according to Sheffco and pals, all British Muslims must be bad and need sending off somewhere.

Last night I watched a programme about several white British men who were paedophiles. I think I saw about five of them altogther, who were found guilty of various offences against children.

As a result of the example that Sheffco and others have set, using this sample as a realistic marker, I now declare that all white British men are potential paedophiles and demand that they are sent out of this country to live in Asia somewhere.

And we should take their benefits off them

Cheers

Bye

:wave:

It probably is a good job that you don't run this forum, if youwant to gag (or expel) those who don't fit in your way of thinking. Sounds a bit fascist to me.

Maybe they should get Cat Stevens to run it. That way he could put a fatwa on anyone who disagrees with him. That's more the Muslim style, isn't it?

Once again - the alleged terrorists arrested this week were Muslims planning an attack in the name of the Muslim faith. Not for criminal gain, but solely in the name of religion.

Other Muslims may not support their action outright, but their faith is such that I'm prepared to bet you'd get a wishy washy non-committal answer, with lots of waffle about the American foreign policy being to blame for everything.

Yeah right mojoworking

You think all muslims are potential terrorists or supporters of terrorism, and you call me a fascist?

Nice one

I am not aware it is the Muslim style to "put Fatwas on people".

I AM aware that lots of members on here were dead against the war in Iraq and blamed the whole thing on American Foreign Policy

They werent Muslim members though, not a solitary one as far as I know

Like I said, you wouldnt agree that all Christians believe in bombing abortion clinics just because a handful do.

So why are all Muslims suddenly suspect?


Nobody is defending any men who plan terrorist attacks, who make bombs or who want to murder innocent people, least of all me. But I am not going to decide unilaterally that millions of people must now be considered as potential terrorists because 8 of their number have been arrested

Are all white men violent Millwall FC supporters?

No of course not

Originally posted by mojoworking

Once again - the alleged terrorists arrested this week were Muslims planning an attack in the name of the Muslim faith. Not for criminal gain, but solely in the name of religion.

Other Muslims may not support their action outright, but their faith is such that I'm prepared to bet you'd get a wishy washy non-committal answer, with lots of waffle about the American foreign policy being to blame for everything.

Just because some nutter may claim to be planning an attack under the muslim faith, does NOT mean that muslim faith is to blame. I cannot see how you get that idea.

I'd say that any muslim in this country who's life may be risked because of a terrorist attack would be dead against such an attack. there's no wishy washy about it. If you ask anyone if they would support a bombing that might endanger their lives, i'd imagine the majority wouldn't.

Every muslim I know is against terrorism as much as myself. funnily enough so is every catholic, protestant, hindu etc...
So basically i would say that the majority of people in this country are against terrorism. There are a small number who aren't, but they are in a minority.

Of course one of the first things that we as the new world order would have to do would be to get rid of all the stupid people too. Maybe a spelling and grammar test to determine who? ;)

Originally posted by Abdul
Because adultery is a grevious sin that breaks up marriages, destroys families and therefore has a severe impact on society. That's why God orders those who commit adultery to be punished by death. Please open up your bible to The Book of Leviticus, Chapter 20:10 -

'And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.'

But you remain silent on the bibles interpretation. It's funny how

of all the ridiculous arguments posted on this forum this tops the lot by a long way. you are quoting from the Old Testament - the Jewish Book Of Law, re-written whilst the Jews were in captivity with stories borrowed from other ancient religions, because the original Book Of Law was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. the savage God, Yaweh (Jehovah) to whom you refer was amazingly transformed into a peace loving, caring God when he was gernerously adopted by the Chritians. to expect anyone to live their lives around laws created by a barbaric Jewish race of ancient times and an equally barbaric God created in their image (not the other way around) is beyond belief.

Originally posted by mojoworking

Other Muslims may not support their action outright, but their faith is such that I'm prepared to bet you'd get a wishy washy non-committal answer, with lots of waffle about the American foreign policy being to blame for everything.

OK, here's the wishy washy response in the form of a letter from The Muslim Council to all mosques, imams etc. I don't see why I should have to do the research when you could just as easily have found this information yourself

Letter to mosques (http://www.mcb.org.uk/Imamletter-31March04.pdf)

Just in case you don't want to read the letter here's a quote:

We also urge you to convey the above message in your Friday sermon and bring awareness to our community of our duties and obligations in combating any threat to peace and stability.

Originally posted by Killian
of all the ridiculous arguments posted on this forum this tops the lot by a long way.

Yaaay! :clap: :partyhat: :thumbsup: Can I have a prize?


Originally posted by Killian
you are quoting from the Old Testament - the Jewish Book Of Law, re-written whilst the Jews were in captivity with stories borrowed from other ancient religions, because the original Book Of Law was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. the savage God, Yaweh (Jehovah) to whom you refer was amazingly transformed into a peace loving, caring God when he was gernerously adopted by the Chritians. to expect anyone to live their lives around laws created by a barbaric Jewish race of ancient times and an equally barbaric God created in their image (not the other way around) is beyond belief.

<Shrugs shoulders> Sorry mate, I got confused somewhere in the above paragraph...

... anyway what I wanted to do with that post was draw peoples attentions to the historical links between the three Abrahamic faiths and also that what is forbidden in Islam was also forbidden in the bible (women covering up, not drinking the fruit of the vine, not eating the flesh of the swine)

Originally posted by max
Letter to mosques (http://www.mcb.org.uk/Imamletter-31March04.pdf)

Well that settles this thread then. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by max
OK, here's the wishy washy response in the form of a letter from The Muslim Council to all mosques, imams etc. I don't see why I should have to do the research when you could just as easily have found this information yourself



Good effort, though I imagine that someone on here will now say that the muslim council are just fabricating lies to cover up the truth.

Originally posted by Abdul
Yaaay! :clap: :partyhat: :thumbsup: Can I have a prize?




<Shrugs shoulders> Sorry mate, I got confused somewhere in the above paragraph...

... anyway what I wanted to do with that post was draw peoples attentions to the historical links between the three Abrahamic faiths and also that what is forbidden in Islam was also forbidden in the bible (women covering up, not drinking the fruit of the vine, not eating the flesh of the swine)

fair enough, but all this was over a thousand years ago. how can anyone still hold these sort of views (death penalty for adultery) in the 21st century?

anyway, i find most religions hypoctrical. i remember visiting friends in Perth, Scotland in 1978. we went out at night to one of the local discos. there were many young men there from either Iraq or Iran (can't remember which, but I have a feeling it was Iran) who were training to be pilots at a nearby base (a different issue which i dont want to get involved with thank-you). i presume they were of the muslim faith (though you will correct me if i'm wrong, hopefully) and all of them were drinking alcohol and were at the discos to meet local girls. didnt seem to bother them that they werent covered up.

It's that sort of generaliation that doesn't help though Killian. If they were Iranian, then they may well have been Christain, but on the other hand, they might have not been interested in any religion at all!

Religion is something that you retain / adopt as you grow up, but it's not compulsary.

You might as well say that all English people are white!

Originally posted by Tony
It's that sort of generaliation that doesn't help though Killian. If they were Iranian, then they may well have been Christain, but on the other hand, they might have not been interested in any religion at all!

Religion is something that you retain / adopt as you grow up, but it's not compulsary.

You might as well say that all English people are white!

that's true and i don't profess to be an expert on the subject. a few people did comment on the night along the lines of 'isn't drinking supposed to be against their religion', but then they probably know as much as i do. i believe that both Iraq and Iran pilots were trained near Perth at different times, but someone from that area would know better than me which were involved in 1978.

is Iran a christian country then? if not, would pilots training to fly for the Iranian air force be Christians?

I think that it would still have been the Shah at the time.

Sheffco, in your original post you said, "lock them up until they are found to be innocent."

How would you determine who is to be locked up? What would be the grounds for this?

Originally posted by Tony
Well that settles this thread then. :thumbsup:

It settles nothing, I'm afraid. Just because the men at the top are pressured into paying lip service to their commitment to peace in the name of public relations, doesn't mean that the average Joe Muslim in the street will follow suit.

You know as well as I do that Islam runs a lot deeper than a piece of paper designed simply to get the media off their backs.

Take our friend Abdul on this very forum: while professing to be a peaceful man, he just can't help himself when it comes to condemning Israel and America and espousing (and agreeing with) the more barbaric teachings of Islam.

When he is challenged on his extremist views, he simply trots out the tired old "racist" defence

So, in your ideal world mojo, how would you deal with the problem?

Originally posted by Andy78
So, in your ideal world mojo, how would you deal with the problem?

I don't have a solution.

I just think we are making a big mistake by allowing extremist religious groups (from all religions) to operate in our midst.

It will come back to haunt us before too long.

Imagine if you went to an Arab country and started preaching anti-Muslim propaganda and generally stirring up hatred against Islam. You'd be in jail (or worse) before you could say "Salman Rushdie".

I don't think that we're allowing it exactly. As soon as a violent faction is identified it is stopped. There's no easy way of finding extremists, until they do something to make themselves known. even then, if you look at how long the trouble has been continuing in NI, generations. We still havent managed to stop it. It's a sad fact of life unfortunately, after years of trying to stop terrorists, they are still active. Maybe they always will be. I for one hope not!

I suspect we will never stop it. I just wish people would wake up and realise that there is a lot of empathy for the extremists within the general Muslim community.

My grandfather is Irish. I grew up in a devout Catholic family. I can tell you that there is/was a huge unspoken support for the IRA within the Catholic community in England.

Not many people actually go out and do anything about it, true, but the empathy for the "struggle" is always there.

I would suggest that the same applies to the Muslim community, probably even more so.

Again in my experience, i have not come accross any catholics that would support the IRA, even just on moral grounds. I'd say that the mojority of the people I know from Liveprool are catholic. I'm sure that there are people who do support such actions, but I don't think the religion can be to blame. You can only blame the idividuals for their ways. The idea of holding the catholic church responsible for the bombings that have plagued this country for so long, is fantasy if you think about it like that. This obviously would not happen, nor should it do.

Originally posted by Andy78
Again in my experience, i have not come accross any catholics that would support the IRA, even just on moral grounds. I'd say that the mojority of the people I know from Liveprool are catholic. I'm sure that there are people who do support such actions, but I don't think the religion can be to blame. You can only blame the idividuals for their ways. The idea of holding the catholic church responsible for the bombings that have plagued this country for so long, is fantasy if you think about it like that. This obviously would not happen, nor should it do.

They may not openly support the bombings, but to say there is no empathy with "the cause" is simply not true.

What would you say the cause is in this case? They may have empathy on a religious level, but if they don't support terrorism, then that's fine surely. I think we can only be concerned about the ones who believe that violence is the answer.

Originally posted by Andy78
What would you say the cause is in this case? They may have empathy on a religious level, but if they don't support terrorism, then that's fine surely. I think we can only be concerned about the ones who believe that violence is the answer.

Take your pick:

America, Israel, our godless, infidel Western decadent society etc

Empathy even on just a religious level is still a dangerous thing in my view.

I meant in the case of catholics. As previously mentioned, just because someone may have empathy in the sense that they believe NI should not be a part of the britsh empire, doesn't mean that they think people should die or be hurt over it. I think in that case the empathy is just a matter of opinion like anyone elses.

Originally posted by Andy78
I meant in the case of catholics. As previously mentioned, just because someone may have empathy in the sense that they believe NI should not be a part of the britsh empire, doesn't mean that they think people should die or be hurt over it. I think in that case the empathy is just a matter of opinion like anyone elses.

I see. Sorry, I misunderstood you.

There's more to the Irish situation than just the partition issue (although it's probably true to say that's the key to everything).

The resentment (and therefore the empathy) dates back to 1920 or earlier. It's based on decades of police brutality; voting inequities; unequal schooling/employment policies; countless injustices like having your door kicked in at 3 in the morning by a British squadie and seeing your husband/brother/father dragged out of bed, beaten up and then interned without charge for days or weeks.

Those are the stories I (and I suspect many children of Irish Catholic background) grew up hearing.

Originally posted by Belle

I am not aware it is the Muslim style to "put Fatwas on people".


Don't blame me for your lack of knowledge. Perhaps you should read more?

Originally posted by Tony
Of course one of the first things that we as the new world order would have to do would be to get rid of all the stupid people too. Maybe a spelling and grammar test to determine who? ;)

That wouldn't work. How could you run the place on your own Tony? ;)

Hehe, I have a feeling that without an "edit" button I might fail it too ! I'll get my coat.:rolleyes:

Sheff again - - - I had to go and rescue a visitor to sheffield - - he's from Brum - - - - took many hours in pubs to get him back to Halfway.
The topic - - - was originally about suspected terrorists in britain
And what to do to prevent it continuing - - - -
Is it the "Teachers" and the "Preachers" - - - - - ?
Have read the postings - - - seems to be a popular thread.
Don't talk about religious beliefs.
I'm just a drinker and a thinker - - and with my "Brummy" mate we will be doing a lot of that - - - he is also very well travelled and experienced - - - -
For years there has been the possibilty of attacks - - - - Airports - airlines even - - - - Now it is being Shown - to be home grown.
We have actually lost a few mates - - to these believers in a cause - - - -
No body has the right to take a life - - - because he wants to change the system! - - - - No preacher should be allowed to teach them and convince them so. ? ? ?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Take our friend Abdul on this very forum: while professing to be a peaceful man, he just can't help himself when it comes to condemning Israel and America


As do many non-Muslims. Are you going to accuse them of harbouring the same beliefs as Islamic terrorists as you are doing with me? And for the third time in this thread, I must remind it was the US who created Saddam and Osama, seeing as you regularly forget this point - 'master white race' and 'selective amnesia' again.

Originally posted by mojoworking
When he is challenged on his extremist views, he simply trots out the tired old "racist" defence

You have twisted this thread from being an attack to Muslim terrorists, to an attack on Secular Arab states, to an attack on Muslim states who were silent after 9/11, to an attack on Muslim states who 'paid lip service' after 9/11, to an attack on Saudi playboys, to an attack on Muslim leaders in the UK, to an attack on all Muslims in the UK, finally to an attack on all Muslims worldwide.

And you accuse me of harbouring extreme views? Do you not think your comments are in anyway racist?

Phew - - - MOD: offensive remarks removed.
Praps I named it wrong - - but it seems to have brought a couple of "Nationalists" out of the woodwork? - - so to speak

Originally posted by Andy78
What would you say the cause is in this case? They may have empathy on a religious level, but if they don't support terrorism, then that's fine surely. I think we can only be concerned about the ones who believe that violence is the answer.

you are either not speaking the whole truth just to give credence to your arguments or you are genuinely naive. IRA supporters and members have always collected for the cause in the crowd at Celtic football matches, just as UDA and UVF sympathisers do likewise at Rangers matches. Orange walks and Hibernian marches in Scotland are havens for pro IRA and pro loyalist followers, so what point are you trying to make about Catholics not supporting the IRA? you are living in a dream world or do you expect everyone to believe that Liverpool has miraculously escaped the same bigotry which plagues Glasgow and Central Scotland?

nationalism seems absurd in the face of the demise of the nation state.

Originally posted by Killian
you are either not speaking the whole truth just to give credence to your arguments or you are genuinely naive. IRA supporters and members have always collected for the cause in the crowd at Celtic football matches, just as UDA and UVF sympathisers do likewise at Rangers matches. Orange walks and Hibernian marches in Scotland are havens for pro IRA and pro loyalist followers, so what point are you trying to make about Catholics not supporting the IRA? you are living in a dream world or do you expect everyone to believe that Liverpool has miraculously escaped the same bigotry which plagues Glasgow and Central Scotland?

Ok, I can only give examples from my own experience, granted.
My earlier point though, was that we cannot, for example ban the whole of the catholic church because some terrorists may be catholic, in the same sense that we cannot ban the muslim faith in its entirety because of some extremists.
So basically theres not much we can do about terrorists until we are aware of their presence. And as we have seen, when their presence is known then they are arrested.

Originally posted by sheffco
Todays news - - - - Call me a nationalist - - right winger - - whatever you like - - - - - I have talked on the forum about sleepers - - fundamentalists - - mind altered religious nuts - - - - Now it is being put in front of you - - - - - - I don't subscribe to the Blair - policy - - But I am beginning to agree with the Blunket policy - - lock them up until they are found to be innocent.
Supervise the education in the mosques.
It's your lives - - they are threatening.

Spot on Sheffco:you are dead right:Top man!!!

Originally posted by halevan
Spot on Sheffco:you are dead right:Top man!!!


Ok still going round in circles. Hal, if we consider the damage that has been done to this country over the years, shall we lock up all the protestants and catholics as well? And i'm talking about the damage that has been done time and time again. I don't think those terroists were plotting in mosques.

Yes I know this is a repeat point, but everyone else is repeating so I may as well too.

Right pub time me thinks.

Originally posted by Andy78
My earlier point though, was that we cannot, for example ban the whole of the catholic church because some terrorists may be catholic, in the same sense that we cannot ban the muslim faith in its entirety because of some extremists.


Fair point. although there are undoubtedly many members of the Catholic Church in Scotland (and indeed Ireland and the USA) who (did) support the Provos cause, the whole of the Catholic Church cannot be tarred with this same brush, i'll give you that.

Originally posted by Killian
Fair point. although there are undoubtedly many members of the Catholic Church in Scotland (and indeed Ireland and the USA) who (did) support the Provos cause, the whole of the Catholic Church cannot be tarred with this same brush, i'll give you that.

I know, this is the point. We can't start tarring any religion with the same brush just because some of their religion may hold extreme views.
At the end of the day, we can't blame any single religion for terrorism, we can only blame the individual people involved. Even if they claim their religion is to blame, it isn't, they are. Whoever they may be

Originally posted by Andy78
I know, this is the point. We can't start tarring any religion with the same brush just because some of their religion may hold extreme views.
At the end of the day, we can't blame any single religion for terrorism, we can only blame the individual people involved. Even if they claim their religion is to blame, it isn't, they are. Whoever they may be

It's a clumsy analogy, maybe, but what if all the problems in your area were caused by yobs from the same school. Wouldn't you have a poor opinion of that school, even though many of the pupils may be well behaved?

Every day when you turn on the news, it's full of the latest atrocities committed in the name of Islam. For example, several Americans were brutally murdered earlier this week. Their bodies were dismembered and dragged behind a car for miles. Nice!

It's not a coincidence that all of the terrorists/murderers are Muslim. They are terrorists BECAUSE they are Muslims. The two things are inextricably linked.

They are also people. does that mean we should get rid of all people?
I think, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I still think that there are a lot of evil people in this world, of many religions and races. I don't think we can start condemning all muslims because of recent events, just because some extremists are muslim. if we do so, we must also condemn everyone who has some links (no matter how subtle) with those that have caused trouble throughout history. Which would pretty much mean everyone.

Originally posted by Andy78
Ok still going round in circles. Hal, if we consider the damage that has been done to this country over the years, shall we lock up all the protestants and catholics as well? And i'm talking about the damage that has been done time and time again. I don't think those terroists were plotting in mosques.

Yes I know this is a repeat point, but everyone else is repeating so I may as well too.

Right pub time me thinks.

Andy 78: RUBBISH!!!!!!

Originally posted by mojoworking
It's a clumsy analogy, maybe, but what if all the problems in your area were caused by yobs from the same school. Wouldn't you have a poor opinion of that school, even though many of the pupils may be well behaved?

Every day when you turn on the news, it's full of the latest atrocities committed in the name of Islam. For example, several Americans were brutally murdered earlier this week. Their bodies were dismembered and dragged behind a car for miles. Nice!

It's not a coincidence that all of the terrorists/murderers are Muslim. They are terrorists BECAUSE they are Muslims. The two things are inextricably linked.

That is precisly the point and only a fool would deny it!!!!!!

Haleven, you failed to answer my question. Rubbish does not really suffice. If you want to start making accusations at one specific religion, at least have the decency to answer questions put to you with some thought. Otherwise no one can really take your opinion seriously.

Originally posted by halevan
That is precisly the point and only a fool would deny it!!!!!!

As i've said again and again, it's not muslims that have been killing people in this country for years and years.

Sheff again - - -- I don't really follow the thread of "Football Teams" - - - - personally - - I support the Owls - - just nominally
I wouldn't plot to bomb the opposition though.
Burning a british flag in London ? ? ?
Go for it - - - - Answers? ?

Does half a dozen religious nutters burning a badly crayoned Union Jack constitute an attempt by the Muslim Nation to take over the country and impose thier culture on us all?

I don't think so.

Incidently, isn't it amazing how the media knew where and when to photograph it? A set up? I bet it sells a lot of weekend newspapers.

I didn't mention any nation or creed - - - But the british flag - - crayoned or not - - by "British" - - - keep in mind the subject - or object of this thread - - - who is supporting these terrorists? ?

But shefco, you mentioned burning the British flag. I really don't understand what you're on about, because your comments vary wildly in their insinuations.

Originally posted by sheffco
Sheff again - - -- I don't really follow the thread of "Football Teams" - - - - personally - - I support the Owls - - just nominally
I wouldn't plot to bomb the opposition though.
Burning a british flag in London ? ? ?
Go for it - - - - Answers? ?


This was in response to Catholics not supporting the IRA. the football teams come into it because in Scotland (and surely you must know this) the majority of Catholics support Celtic and the majority of Protestant support Rangers. both loyalist and provos have in the past collected funds from the crowds at their games either by donations or various fund raising schemes such as those pull-off football cards. my point being that of course Catholics support the IRA just as Protestants have loyalist paramilitary leanings. i suggest you do some research on these two clubs and then you will appreciate that football has very little to do with anything.

Apologies as I haven't managed to get through ALL 15 pages.

I read the other day (rare occurance me and newspapers) about the bomb haul they made in and around Crawley.

What I found interesting is that whilst the uncles, mothers, parents were all there saying how their children could not have possibly done something like that, they are good english boys and all this.
One of the lads sisters was quoted as saying that her brother was fine until he started going to the mosque and then he became obsessed (perhaps obsessed is the wrong word but I cannot remember the right one) with reading and listening to the Koran. Now this wasn't made a big deal of as you might expect, it was something I picked up on in the small quote that was given.

Now as with all religions there are going to be people who 'find' their religion and rejoice in it. My concern which is perhaps as many is the fact that a Jihad is a holy war. Holy=religious of course people are going to look at the schools for evidence of preaching war on the west!

Now whilst it may be a logical conclusion to draw, I am not by any stretch of the imagination saying that it is right.

My other concern in this whole state of affairs is that the muslim families in the UK (or elsewhere in the west for that matter) face a nasty ride should tension between the two sides reach a boiling point. - just like any germans in the UK did in WWII.

I think the UK is heading towards some serious conflict with this.

One bomb goes off in the UK that is tied to any islamic group and you are looking at riots on your hands.

Moon

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
One of the lads sisters was quoted as saying that her brother was fine until he started going to the mosque and then he became obsessed (perhaps obsessed is the wrong word but I cannot remember the right one) with reading and listening to the Koran.

Would that word be 'indoctrinated' ... Moon Maiden !?

Originally posted by Jamie
Would that word be 'indoctrinated' ... Moon Maiden !?

No I do not believe that was the word she used.

Moon

Hi Moon Maid - - - A bit of sense on the thread:)
This religion bit is getting a bit tedious
Home grown terrorists are the topic - - - and what to do with them - - - I can only suggest a "Gauntanamo Bay type solution"
Or worse - - - -
My Brummy doodlebugger mate is still here and the bottles are piling up - - - any-one want to have another rant about drinkers and thinkers? ? Not bombers though?

Originally posted by sheffco
Home grown terrorists are the topic - - - and what to do with them - - - I can only suggest a "Gauntanamo Bay type solution"
Or worse - - - -

You - - - mean to - - - send them - - - all to - - - Anglesey?

Sheff - - - a long time ago - - I worked on a missile base in Angelsey - - I like the place - - -
What's that Island in the hebrides - -experimental anthrax place during the ww2 years? ? ?

Sheff - - -
I really fail to see what was offensive in my last message? ?
Humour maybe? ?
When people are prepared to detonate themselves - - and take other people with them - - What do you do with them ? ?
Nato kept Albert Speer locked up for life in Spandau.
I am talking about our country - and the freedom to travel - circulate - converse - - - Without the fear of some idiot (Non Spesific) deciding he has the right to change society by terror.

Originally posted by sheffco
I am talking about our country - and the freedom to travel -

I see we agree at last. People should be free to travel irrespective of race and not be locked up unless convicted of some crime. Well said.


PS Were you a telegraph operator in a previous job?

Sheff - to Max
I've had a lot of previous jobs - - most of them incomprhensible to people here in Sheffield - - - Mainly I am a patriot
I took the Queens shilling once - - a long time ago
You swear an oath - - you get a bible
I ended up a "Seismologist" - - It's why I understand a bit about the problems with certain countries - - I worked among the locals.
Some people call it colonialism - - expliotation even - - the truth is - - really it was development - - - they sat back and took the profits - - the right or wrong of the ruling system was usually out of our hands.
All I am saying - - - is don't try and change my country
P.S -- I did hold a signaller's badge in the army

Originally posted by sheffco

P.S -- I did hold a signaller's badge in the army

Ah, that explains the plethora of unnecessary hyphens!

You are right Max - - - short terse replies - - quick bursts - - depends on the situation your in - - -"Sit Rep":)
Don't let them range in on you - - in other words
Different world - - Eh!

Sheff again -
Seriously What do you do with these people? ?
A threat of a chemical attack in London - possible explosives - and I know the formula to convert fertilizer.
We have one of the best security forces in the world - - why should they have to risk there lives to arrest "Suspects"? ?
At the risk of getting moderated again
Why are these people here?
Moon Maiden made a very good point - about the "First Incident In Britain"
Enoch Powell made a similar point many years ago - - I don't want to see it - riots on the street etc.
It has been shown on the news that a few "Incidents" in Britain have been foiled.
Don't go into religion again - - who is British and stands by their country of origin or adoption?

Originally posted by sheffco
I've had a lot of previous jobs - - most of them incomprhensible to people here in Sheffield

I'm interested to know why you think people in Sheffield would not be able to comprehend your previous jobs?

Hi Dug
I was a doodlebugger - - - -worked with dynamite and things - - Fifty ton vibrators - weight trucks - drills and drillers (Dangerous) - - but also learned a lot about people.

Hmm, and there was me thinking that Sheffield had loads of mining engineers. Silly me.

Sheff - - with hyphens
My degree is from the Colorado school of mines - -
Oil -Not coal - but I do have family members with medals - from the mining strike in Sheffield
As I have said - I worked around the world - did my job - took my pay - - but what does all this have to do with terrorists in Britain

Originally posted by sheffco
Sheff - - with hyphens
My degree is from the Colorado school of mines - -
Oil -Not coal - but I do have family members with medals - from the mining strike in Sheffield
As I have said - I worked around the world - did my job - took my pay - - but what does all this have to do with terrorists in Britain

I dunno, but I think it's being discussed because you said that you did a job that noone in Sheffield would understand. I don't think that has much to do with it either.

And it's OT I know, but what's an oil mine?

We've covered the terrorists in Britain and what to do with them in depth, you just need to read other people's posts. Simply put, if they are found guilty of an existing law then send them for trial. If they're found guilty then use the law to punish them.

I think British culture is under more threat from people who can't use English properly than it is from the perceived threat from mass immigration.

Sheff - - to Max And Tony
Because I am a little tired and emotional at the moment
Maybe my grammar is not correct - - my topic has always been - - what do we do with these people?
Oil Mine - - ? Think about where I worked.
I think i said before - the University of life is a great experience
I did say that some of my jobs were incomprehensible - - - do you know what a fifty ton vibrator does?

Originally posted by sheffco

I think i said before - the University of life is a great experience
I did say that some of my jobs were incomprehensible - - - do you know what a fifty ton vibrator does?

Sounds a bit kinky, but I can probably imagine what it does.

You're picking out technical aspects from your past job - it could apply to any job - don't be so patronising to people in Sheffield.

Originally posted by sheffco
Sheff - - to Max And Tony
Because I am a little tired and emotional at the moment
Maybe my grammar is not correct - - my topic has always been - - what do we do with these people?
Oil Mine - - ? Think about where I worked.
I think i said before - the University of life is a great experience
I did say that some of my jobs were incomprehensible - - - do you know what a fifty ton vibrator does?

In my sphere of work then the answer is ground / strata compactation. What did you use them for? Anyway, you still haven't enlightened us as to what an oil mine is - if I knew the answer I wouldn't have to ask. (This is really OT)

Well as you may have noticed My chosen name is Sheff
I was nick-named that many years ago and have been proud of it since
Compaction - I can only think you come from a construction technology background - - -
Vibrators - - to me were a method of putting energy into the ground - - 3 miles or more down - - reflections picked up by geophones - - 3D maps made of the sub-surface - thats where the oil mines came from

Originally posted by Tony
Anyway, you still haven't enlightened us as to what an oil mine is - if I knew the answer I wouldn't have to ask. (This is really OT)

"Oil mine," he replied, when the masseuse asked him what he prefered.:loopy:

Try Bangkok - - in the 70's or even 60's

Originally posted by sheffco
- - my topic has always been - - what do we do with these people?


At the risk of repeating myself, please read previous posts before asking the same question again and again:

Originally posted by max
If they're found guilty (of breaking any laws) then use the law to punish them.

Sheff
What I am really asking - is "Do WE Need a New Law" to just seclude these people away - out of harm and out of the possibillity of causing harm.
I am reasonably happy with society - - I don't want to impose my ideas on others by violence - or my beliefs for that matter.

Originally posted by sheffco
Sheff
What I am really asking - is "Do WE Need a New Law" to just seclude these people away - out of harm and out of the possibillity of causing harm.
I am reasonably happy with society - - I don't want to impose my ideas on others by violence - or my beliefs for that matter.
Aha! We get to the point! :)

I think that the laws that we have are perfectly adequate on the whole providing they are implemented properly and adequately. I would still make it an offence to deface a national symbol though.

Did you want a law to lock these people away without trial indefinitely?

How would you identify 'those people' until they had blown themselves up? And wouldn't that go against every principle of British law? Innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt, trial by a jury of peers!

I think that sheffco is thinking more along the lines of "Jury by the Sun Editor".

Originally posted by Tony
Aha! We get to the point! :)

I think that the laws that we have are perfectly adequate on the whole providing they are implemented properly and adequately. I would still make it an offence to deface a national symbol though.

Yes, it's taken a while but at last we come to what Sheffco wanted all along.

Why would you make it an offence to deface a national symbol though? Don't you think it would be used inappropriately? For instance, using the stop and search laws which were brought in to detect IRA terrorists (funny how many of them seemed to be black) all it would need would be for a suspect to have a defaced coin and bob's your uncle.

Who would determine where the line should be drawn?

Well I think it is already a technical offence to destroy money :)

You would really have to establish what a national symbol was... and it should be more than a flag, because you could of course crayon the Union Flag on a cornflake packet, and it would techically have the same effect (if only from a comedy perspective).

I wouldn't want to see roses, thistles, shamrocks and leeks etc included... because I'm rather partial to leeks. ;)

I think we would all know what a national symbol was though is we saw it being defaced - its about respect that we all have essentially. I would also make it a blanket law, so that anyone defacing any nations symbol could be charged.

As long as it doesn't include leeks. :D

Sheff
Maybe I am proposing a new law - - but if it protects me and mine from "Suspected" terrorists - then so be it.
We have a very good police force and a very good security organisation - - not to mention "The Regiment"
So should reasonable suspicion be enough?
Why take risks?

To be honest sheffco, in this forum, you worry me far more than abdul.

Not a very moderate reply
Suppose I will be rubbished now
Tried to put forward moderate questions
Didn't mention names - - unless moderately
Abdul has been quiet lately

Sheff
I'm not really talking about defacing a flag - or a coin - - or what colour you are - - just - if you are threatening my freedom - in my own country - - - Why come here? if you don't like it?

Originally posted by sheffco
Education - - - I mean in the mosques - - not our schools - - Am I a fanatic ? - - No
But what sensible country and government - - allows these people to preach death and destruction - - - In the name of "Human Rights" ? ?
They are not persecuted in Britain.
If they wish to preach a "Jehad" - - - do it in islamic countries - - -

You've hit the nail on the head!!!

Sheff
Why do the other side call us racist? - -
Citizenship should also mean loyalty - -

Originally posted by sheffco
Sheff
Maybe I am proposing a new law - - but if it protects me and mine from "Suspected" terrorists - then so be it.
We have a very good police force and a very good security organisation - - not to mention "The Regiment"
So should reasonable suspicion be enough?
Why take risks?

No, reasonable suspicion should not be enough. And enough for what, you didn't clarify what this new law would be.

Civil liberties has to apply to everyone, no exceptions for any reason. Otherwise you've started the ball rolling, and it won't stop until civil liberties applies only to the people in power.

I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune one day if you're vision came true and then there was 'reasonable suspicion' regarding you or one of yours.

Originally posted by halevan
You've hit the nail on the head!!!

and you still have not answered any of my questions put to you earlier in this thread hal. Can you not think of any answers? are you really that weak? i'm afraid your comments so far have been basic to say the least. If you really feel the need to congratulate others on their comments, please have the strength to say why you approve. You seem to me, to have very dated views. i invite you to prove me wrong. If you can that is.