Academics have voted to go on strike and boycott marking of students work:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4725274.stm

Do you support this even if it means many students will not get exam results this summer? or do you think they are being greedy and should be happy with what they have already got?

need more info. What sort of salary do they get? and were they being paid too much a few years ago since the alledged drop?

Don't like their argument that they should be paid more because of top-up fees. This money isn't necessary for them in my view and it makes me hate them a bit.

We are all worth more than we are paid.... but if you go into the public sector then you should expect public sector wages unless you fancy a hike in the tax sector from the general poulation who I don't think would be too charmed by the proposition.

need more info. What sort of salary do they get? and were they being paid too much a few years ago since the alledged drop?

Don't like their argument that they should be paid more because of top-up fees. This money isn't necessary for them in my view and it makes me hate them a bit.

Well the universities allegedly promised if they had top up fees 1/3 would be spent on salaries, so thats why they want the money to come fromt that.

The offical figure is salaries have dropped in real terms by 40% over the last x years (x is at least 10 I think). A lecturer starts on 30k I think (at Sheffield anyway), and researchers on around 20-25k depending on where they work. Thats in science. I dont know about arts type subjects though.

We are all worth more than we are paid.... but if you go into the public sector then you should expect public sector wages unless you fancy a hike in the tax sector from the general poulation who I don't think would be too charmed by the proposition.

They arent asking the tax payer to fund the hike though. They want the hike to come out of top up fees.

The pay at the University I work at is currently being restructured so I don't know how much I'll be on come September, but we have been warned there is the possibility of it going down as well as up.

I can tell you the exact salary figures:

Lecturing salaries start at £24,352
Senior lecturers at £28,212
Researchers at £13,287

Yes, we were promised that 1/3 of the top up fees would be spent on salaries, but this original promise has now been withdrawn.

Well the universities allegedly promised if they had top up fees 1/3 would be spent on salaries, so thats why they want the money to come fromt that.

The offical figure is salaries have dropped in real terms by 40% over the last x years (x is at least 10 I think). A lecturer starts on 30k I think (at Sheffield anyway), and researchers on around 20-25k depending on where they work. Thats in science. I dont know about arts type subjects though.

Thanks Nightrider

oh fair play on the top up fees. If they're not getting what they were promised and they've tried everything else, I guess they'd have to resort to striking to ensure they're not being taken advantage of. Wouldn't like to commit as I don't know all the facts on this

hi
The payscales at Sheffield Uni are across grades 1-9 plus professorial grades and it makes no difference whether you are science or arts based, it goes on the level of job you are performing. I think one of the key issues in this strike is that whilst we have had a reduction of 40% in real terms University employers had publicly stated their intention to make good this loss and have renaged on this despite additional funding being made into Universities. There are obviously the good and the bad in the university sectors but the majority of my colleagues who work there are contracted for 35 hours but regularly work 50 hours (often plus) a week unpaid just to meet the demands of the job these days.

There are obviously the good and the bad in the university sectors but the majority of my colleagues who work there are contracted for 35 hours but regularly work 50 hours (often plus) a week unpaid just to meet the demands of the job these days.

This is also commonplace. The fact that many departments run on 50-60% staffing levels because lecturer's leave and their positions are frozen due to 'lack of funding' exacerbates this situation.

They've just changed it at Hallam Uni. It used to be a 10 grade system, now its a 51 grade system. Or so I understand, it's rather confusing.

They arent asking the tax payer to fund the hike though. They want the hike to come out of top up fees.

Is this not a form of taxation though..... maybe a have now pay later one albeit.

I'm a postdoctoral uni researcher doing my first research contract. About five years ago as an undergraduate there was a lecturer's strike that I was telling my dad about, and saying that I disapproved of it. He said that if I ever reached that position in the future (which I'm working towards), maybe I'd feel differently about it. I stated however that I had absolutely no sympathy for someone on £30k per year who wanted a pay rise. I still feel the same now.

It is quite a socialist view, but there are far worse jobs than those in academia. My dad works in a caravan factory and has been there for about 25 years. When I was an undergraduate I always worked full time in warehouses etc during my vacations to earn money and support myself on my course. That was hard, physical work and I even worked night shifts. That's real work, not sitting at a computer all day drinking tea, or standing at the front of a lecture theatre and speaking about various theories etc.

I do research because I enjoy investigating new things and I like the opportunity to use my mind all day. It's definitely not about the money for me. I'm not a member of any teaching unions, and if asked I'd have no intention of striking.

:)

I'm a postdoctoral uni researcher doing my first research contract. About five years ago as an undergraduate there was a lecturer's strike that I was telling my dad about, and saying that I disapproved of it. He said that if I ever reached that position in the future (which I'm working towards), maybe I'd feel differently about it. I stated however that I had absolutely no sympathy for someone on £30k per year who wanted a pay rise. I still feel the same now.

It is quite a socialist view, but there are far worse jobs than those in academia. My dad works in a caravan factory and has been there for about 25 years. When I was an undergraduate I always worked full time in warehouses etc during my vacations to earn money and support myself on my course. That was hard, physical work and I even worked night shifts. That's real work, not sitting at a computer all day drinking tea, or standing at the front of a lecture theatre and speaking about various theories etc.

I do research because I enjoy investigating new things and I like the opportunity to use my mind all day. It's definitely not about the money for me. I'm not a member of any teaching unions, and if asked I'd have no intention of striking.

:)

Those jobs you described may be hard work, but I didn't spend 8 years getting in huge amounts of debt to do what is a damn hard job working 50 hours a week (not just sitting behind a desk drinking cups of tea as you put it) and earning around much less than my school peers who have been working in IT doing 35 hour weeks.

....That's real work, not sitting at a computer all day drinking tea, or standing at the front of a lecture theatre and speaking about various theories etc.

I do research because I enjoy investigating new things and I like the opportunity to use my mind all day. It's definitely not about the money for me. I'm not a member of any teaching unions, and if asked I'd have no intention of striking.

:)
You say you're a post-doc? In a university department? Do you not have any contact with university lecturers? You seem to have a very strange view of what they get up to.

I can't speak for those in the Arts and related fields, but in biology and medicine the situation you describe is far from accurate. Did your PhD supervisor not conduct his/her own research? Did s/he not engage in the endless round of grant application and paper writing in addition to the duties involved with lecturing?

30K is peanuts when you consider the training the average university lecturer has undergone in order to reach the position where they're earning 30K. Yes, it's their choice to enter the profession, but the pay needs to have parity with graduates from similar academic backgrounds in the private sector.

You say you're a post-doc? In a university department? Do you not have any contact with university lecturers? You seem to have a very strange view of what they get up to.

I can't speak for those in the Arts and related fields, but in biology and medicine the situation you describe is far from accurate. Did your PhD supervisor not conduct his/her own research? Did s/he not engage in the endless round of grant application and paper writing in addition to the duties involved with lecturing?

30K is peanuts when you consider the training the average university lecturer has undergone in order to reach the position where they're earning 30K. Yes, it's their choice to enter the profession, but the pay needs to have parity with graduates from similar academic backgrounds in the private sector.

Okay, I admit the "tea-drinking" comment was a bit flippant, but I still stand by the point I was making.

I'm in academia because I enjoy it, I'm not in it because of the money. As an engineering researcher I'm aware (as are all engineering researchers) that I could get more money in industry, but that simply isn't what I want to do. I don't assess my life on how much money I'm earning. Maybe it's an idealistic view, but academia should be about the pursuit of knowledge in it's purest form. The pursuit of wealth should be made in the corporate world, where screwing people over and maximising profit are actively encouraged.

As I said, I've got no sympathy for someone on £30k per year who wants a pay rise. Academics should be above that kind of behaviour.

Okay, I admit the "tea-drinking" comment was a bit flippant, but I still stand by the point I was making.

I'm in academia because I enjoy it, I'm not in it because of the money. As an engineering researcher I'm aware (as are all engineering researchers) that I could get more money in industry, but that simply isn't what I want to do. I don't assess my life on how much money I'm earning. Maybe it's an idealistic view, but academia should be about the pursuit of knowledge in it's purest form. The pursuit of wealth should be made in the corporate world, where screwing people over and maximising profit are actively encouraged.
Idealistic and naive. You might as well say 'plastering should be about the pursuit of the finest of flat surfaces'...

Many university departments have extensive links with the corporate sector. Some PhDs are sponsored and co-sponsered by private companies. My partner works in aerospace research. His company has extensive links with several university physics, engineering and maths departments, whose researchers contribute jointly to various projects.

Why should university researchers (who are also lecturers) have to accept a salary which it is significantly below their colleagues in the private sector. Yes, universities might be unwilling or unable to pay the large salaries paid to some in the private sector, but I don't think a fairly modest pay rise is too much to ask.
As I said, I've got no sympathy for someone on £30k per year who wants a pay rise. Academics should be above that kind of behaviour.
LOL You mean they should stick to their garrets in their ivory towers? ...

As a University lecturer, I agree wholeheartedly with ppn-2204's views. A modest pay-rise, for that is what it is in relative terms, is certainly not too much to ask for and expect. Academics are hardly engaged in 'the pursuit of wealth', to use Daley's phrase. They realise that the 'big money' is made elsewhere, and most, like Daley, are in the profession because they have a great passion for the subject they teach and research.

Personally, I do not regard £30k a year as a high salary for a well-qualified, research-active academic. There are people working on factory production lines earning more at Ford's Halewood plant in Liverpool.

i thought they took the job for the love of it, 30k is a good wage,but if they were promised a wage increase and didnt get it then fair enough,let them strike,but for a strike to have any impact it has to have the sympathy of others, who would they be asking to back them up ?

Not sure where I stand on this one.

On balance I think I'm against the strike. £31K (or more - that's the starting point for junior lecturers) for a relatively secure job doing something you love (notwithstanding the grant application and teaching chores) seems like a good deal. If two of you were earning that amount you'd still just be able to afford somewhere decent to live in Sheffield. If you feel you could get more in private industry for doing the same job under acceptable conditions, then of course you're free to pursue that option. I also agree with depoix's point that a strike will severely damage lecturers' public image.

On the other hand, I don't think you should necessarily be paid less just because you enjoy your work. Also, having worked both in universities and in private industry, in my experience it's the universities that are the worse employers in terms of commitment to their employees etc.

Not sure where I stand on this one.

On balance I think I'm against the strike. £31K (or more - that's the starting point for junior lecturers) for a relatively secure job doing something you love (notwithstanding the grant application and teaching chores) seems like a good deal. If two of you were earning that amount you'd still just be able to afford somewhere decent to live in Sheffield. If you feel you could get more in private industry for doing the same job under acceptable conditions, then of course you're free to pursue that option. I also agree with depoix's point that a strike will severely damage lecturers' public image.

On the other hand, I don't think you should necessarily be paid less just because you enjoy your work. Also, having worked both in universities and in private industry, in my experience it's the universities that are the worse employers in terms of commitment to their employees etc.

Did you read the rest of the thread?? £31k is NOT the starting salary for junior lecturers, or even senior lecturers! Starting for junior lecturers is just over £24k, and £28k for senior lecturers. £24k after over 8 years of self funded training and debt is not that much when people you were at school with who didn't do A-levels are on £35k. A relatively secure job? not really, staff turnover is often fairly high. Yes, we might love our job but we didn't intend to be working 50 hour weeks and doing the jobs of up to three lecturers due to understaffing.

£24k might get you a reasonable place to live in Sheffield, but the pay scales are similar nationally bar London. It'll just about scrape a one bedroom flat in the South.

Did you read the rest of the thread?? £31k is NOT the starting salary for junior lecturers, or even senior lecturers! Starting for junior lecturers is just over £24k, and £28k for senior lecturers.

Sorry, should have been more precise - like nightrider, I was referring specifically to Sheffield. I understand that most lecturers at Sheffield Uni, if involved in research as well as teaching, now start on £31.5k, though that's only quite recently been brought in.

[I am not paid anything near that amount, by the way.]

For the amount of training you have to go through (at least 6 years, possibly 8 or more), it's not good money. I've been emailed by my lecturers about paperwork etc. at 11pm before now, seems like a lifestyle more than a job.

I'm aiming for a career in academia but not for the money, which isn't that important to me (at the moment, anyway) as I have no real financial commitments... but I'd still be annoyed if my wage dropped by 40% regardless of how important the money was to me.

Still hope they don't strike though as I'd be one of the students affected.

Sorry, should have been more precise - like nightrider, I was referring specifically to Sheffield. I understand that most lecturers at Sheffield Uni, if involved in research as well as teaching, now start on £31.5k, though that's only quite recently been brought in.

[I am not paid anything near that amount, by the way.]

Yes, that sounds about what it is. A postdoc at sheffield typically earns more than 24k so lecturers will be on quite a bit more than that.

http://www.shef.ac.uk/hr/payandreward/salsaug05.pdf

There's the pay scale for Sheffield. Lecturers and higher clinical researchers (in pure science, arts probably less) fall around grade 7 - 8 (then senior lecturers, readers, professors and head-of-department types above that) - had to look into this as part of third year project.

I have found that the majority of the serious threads on this forum are very well informed. This one isn't.

The AUT and their bride to be NAPTHE claim that

"The employers have still not come up with an offer and are still refusing to hold unconditional talks with the unions..."

Well there is a reason for this and it runs as follows: All pay negotiation is done by collective bargaining between the Universities & Colleges Employers' Association (UCEA) and all the recognised unions including big hitters like Unison, GMB and Amicus.

The talks between all the unions to decide the stance for the next pay claim were due to take place in March. The AUT has jumped the gun for some reason, leaving it without any official support from the other unions. More importantly, the UCEA cannot enter into separate negotiations with the AUT under the collective bargaining agreement.

In fact the UCEA has invited the other unions to put in pay claims earlier than usual to try and resolve the issue.

This quote is, like the one above, from the AUT website and is about as hypocritical as it is possible to be.

"The universities are gambling disgracefully with students' futures and I would ask them to think again and at last offer serious negotiations without pre-conditions."

I would guess that the AUT is following an opportunist agenda. As to what their trying to achieve, no-one knows as it is impossble for the employers to hold talks with them under the terms of an agreement that the AUT signed up to.

For those who would care to visit the AUT News page, there is a banner randomly showing different people with a service the union provides, and one of them is for Collective Bargaining. - Now that's irony.

And another thing......

How come everyone swallows this line about universities promising to put one third of income from top up fees towards pay increases?

Universities, collectively and individually, never ever promise anything. They commission consultation exercises to investigate the feasibility of putting together a focus group charged with setting the scope for a project team with a mandate to produce a paper to be put to a committee to discuss the possibility of agreeing a date for a future meeting at which a proposal to consider a pay claim might be considered.

There is more chance of George W Bush converting to Islam than there is of Universities making such a promise.

And another thing......

How come everyone swallows this line about universities promising to put one third of income from top up fees towards pay increases?

Universities, collectively and individually, never ever promise anything. They commission consultation exercises to investigate the feasibility of putting together a focus group charged with setting the scope for a project team with a mandate to produce a paper to be put to a committee to discuss the possibility of agreeing a date for a future meeting at which a proposal to consider a pay claim might be considered.

There is more chance of George W Bush converting to Islam than there is of Universities making such a promise.

But they did make such a promise, to get academics on side when trying to pass the new top-up fees.

But they did make such a promise, to get academics on side when trying to pass the new top-up fees.

This is again from the AUT website

"In April 2004, as higher education minister, Alan Johnson told Parliament that: 'University vice-chancellors tell us that, in general, at least a third of that money will be put back into the salaries and conditions of their staff"....blah blah blah....last night Alan Johnson confirmed that the answer he gave was based on a conversation with Universities UK..."

For me the phrase 'based on a conversation with' would indicate that no commitment has been made. When considering how politicians love to embellish the truth, this a spectacularly limp response.

Anyway, I went on to the UCEA website and I found this:

"The employers agree that a lot more will be spent - on pay modernisation, extra staff to tackle workload problems and the increase in student numbers, buttressing final salary pension schemes, and salary increases for 2006-07 and beyond... Blah blah blah.... Spending on all this will cost well over one-third of the new fee income."

So it would appear that the employers are going to spend over one third of the new fee income on staffing costs.

So what are the unions striking for?

It appears that the AUT has changed it's demands and is now demanding 33% over three years, which would amount to over half of all additional income.

So the AUT are claiming that the university employers broke a promise which:

a) they never made
b) they have stated their intention to honour the terms of
c) bears no relation to the pay claim the AUT have put in.

I don't know all that much about it because I wasn't working in academia at the time. However what I do object to is the new pay scale which is being introduced later this year, and the warning that salaries could go down. One thing is for sure, they aren't introducing a new pay scale in order to pay us more, which they should be with the introduction of the top up fees. If my salary is reduced I won't go on strike, I'll quit, because I'm already paid barely enough to live on.

It doesn't matter what exact words the education minister used, he implied that 1/3 of the funding from top-up fees would be used to increase salaries, in a manipulative move to get academics on side, and the government has now backtracked after getting the new fees in place.

I don't know all that much about it because I wasn't working in academia at the time. However what I do object to is the new pay scale which is being introduced later this year, and the warning that salaries could go down. One thing is for sure, they aren't introducing a new pay scale in order to pay us more, which they should be with the introduction of the top up fees. If my salary is reduced I won't go on strike, I'll quit, because I'm already paid barely enough to live on.

It doesn't matter what exact words the education minister used, he implied that 1/3 of the funding from top-up fees would be used to increase salaries, in a manipulative move to get academics on side, and the government has now backtracked after getting the new fees in place.

Hi Twiglet

I don't know where you work, but at Hallam the proposal is that if anyone has their salary reduced as a consequence of moving to the new pay scale, it won't be reduced for four years, and within that period of time training will be offered to enable staff to move up the pay spine such that they receive as much as or more than they were on.

Try e-mailing a Unison rep where you work, they will be clued up as to the plans for moving to the single pay spine.

It has already been mentioned that university salaries have not kept pace with those of other professional groups.

This is true. But in my view a more cogent point is that they have not kept pace with substantially increased workloads or in changes to conditions of service.

The vast increase in the number of students is one such factor. A generation ago, average seminar sizes were probably in the region of 8. Now 'seminars' can have as many as 24 students (think of the extra marking and supervison this entails). 'Industrial marking' is a term which has been used to describe the present situation.

The second factor is the increased pressure on academics to conduct research - i.e. to publish books and articles for inclusion in the Research Assessment Exercise (which has implications for the amount of finance a university receives from the government). There is undoubtedly much greater pressure in this area than there used to be.

A third factor is that universities are by no means immune from the form filling and box ticking culture we see in other public services, not least in our schools. Academics now spend an appreciable amount of time on explaining their 'learning objectives', filling out reports and other paper exercises.

A fourth factor is that a university job is no longer a guarantee of permanent employment. Universities are run like businesses and are subject to those terrible twins, the laws of supply and demand. Job security used to be an attractive feature of university employment. This is no longer the case. Lecturers do get made redundant (I have no quarrel with this, but it is another example of how their working conditions have deteriorated).

Hi Twiglet

I don't know where you work, but at Hallam the proposal is that if anyone has their salary reduced as a consequence of moving to the new pay scale, it won't be reduced for four years, and within that period of time training will be offered to enable staff to move up the pay spine such that they receive as much as or more than they were on.

Try e-mailing a Unison rep where you work, they will be clued up as to the plans for moving to the single pay spine.

I've just read the dates for the strike and marking boycott in March. I certainly won't be prepared to strike as we're not being informed of our points on the new pay spine and our salaries until April/May. I understand the reasoning behind it and totally support it but I was under the impression the strikes were to take place in August after the new pay spine was introduced. I don't understand how people can strke when they don't even know what their new salary will be.

The new pay spine at the University of Sheffield was announced in November 2005.

Most staff members (including myself) have now been assigned to their new grades and points on the scale.

I just got a letter saying we won't be paid if we strike. So stuff it, I'm paid so little I can't afford to sacrifice a days pay, no strike for me!

I've just read the dates for the strike and marking boycott in March. I certainly won't be prepared to strike as we're not being informed of our points on the new pay spine and our salaries until April/May. I understand the reasoning behind it and totally support it but I was under the impression the strikes were to take place in August after the new pay spine was introduced. I don't understand how people can strke when they don't even know what their new salary will be.

The strike isnt about the move to the new pay spine. Its about getting additional increases on top of this from top up fees.

The strike isnt about the move to the new pay spine. Its about getting additional increases on top of this from top up fees.

Ok fair enough I'm new to all this so haven't really read into it that much. I'm now having to fill in a declaration of intent which is a bit worrying. I totally support the strike and believe I should participate and support colleagues etc. but really cannot afford to do so. I feel that signing the form to say I'm not participating is like saying I don't agree with the industrial action.

Ok fair enough I'm new to all this so haven't really read into it that much. I'm now having to fill in a declaration of intent which is a bit worrying. I totally support the strike and believe I should participate and support colleagues etc. but really cannot afford to do so. I feel that signing the form to say I'm not participating is like saying I don't agree with the industrial action.

where do you work?

We havent had to do that at Sheffield (yet).

The new pay spine at the University of Sheffield was announced in November 2005.

Most staff members (including myself) have now been assigned to their new grades and points on the scale.


The legal requirement for introducing the new framework is to have it in place by August. There is nothing to stop institutions making amendments to their framework at any point.

As I understand it, the University of Sheffield took the recommended framework and imposed it on their existing structure, while other institutions are developing frameworks that suit their particular circumstances.

The legal requirement for introducing the new framework is to have it in place by August. There is nothing to stop institutions making amendments to their framework at any point.

As I understand it, the University of Sheffield took the recommended framework and imposed it on their existing structure, while other institutions are developing frameworks that suit their particular circumstances.

Hi Tricky- the post of mine that you quoted was in direct relation to Twiggy's assertion that Uni of Shef staff haven't yet been assigned the the new pay spine. I was just basically saying that most staff already have been assigned to the pay spine- those who haven't are either fairly new members of staff (as Twiggy appears to be) or they were absent (for e.g. study leave or maternit leave) at the time that the pay and reward process took place.

Hi Tricky- the post of mine that you quoted was in direct relation to Twiggy's assertion that Uni of Shef staff haven't yet been assigned the the new pay spine. I was just basically saying that most staff already have been assigned to the pay spine- those who haven't are either fairly new members of staff (as Twiggy appears to be) or they were absent (for e.g. study leave or maternity leave) at the time that the pay and reward process took place.

Ooops- sorry, I just read back through the post and realised that Twiggy doesn't work at the Uni of Shef. Soz for any confusion caused!

Ooops- sorry, I just read back through the post and realised that Twiggy doesn't work at the Uni of Shef. Soz for any confusion caused!

Yep I'm not at Sheffield :D None of our staff know their new salaries yet. I believe our new pay spine is one that they are developing themselves as opposed to taking the national one.