Just seen where our very own Archbishop of Canterbury is to apologise about the Chuch's role in the Slave Trade .
Maybe his forbears did benefit by the Slave Trade and so he feels a need to apologise but for the vast majority of us whose great -great grandparents were workers on the land .......etc........ perhaps he'll skip the apologies ?
Also , let's hope that other people follow the good Archbishop's example !
Perhaps the descendants of the African Chiefs who sold so many of their fellow-countrymen into slavery will now apologies ? Perhaps the Barbary -Coast Arabs will apologies to all the people they enslaved ? Perhaps the Saudi peninsula Arabs will apologise for taking people for slavery from N. E. Africa ? Perhaps the Russians will say they 're very sorry indeed for what they did in E. Europe between 1945 and 1990 ? Perhaps the French , Spanish and Portugese will apologise for all their bad behaviour in Asia , Africa and S. America ?
Perhaps everybody who has done anything a bit dodgy will apologies to those they have offended ? Perhaps ?
But , I wouldn't hold my breath ............

It would be much more relevant for the Muslim terrorists to appologise for all the evil they have done recently and sontinue to do.:rant:

And the Turkish Muslims for committing the first act of genocide of the 20th century against the Armenian Christians in 1915 (http://www.armenian-genocide.org/1915-3.html)?

I doubt it

And the Turkish Muslims for committing the first act of genocide of the 20th century against the Armenian Christians in 1915 (http://www.armenian-genocide.org/1915-3.html)?

I doubt it

or perhaps for Tony Blair to apologise to all those who have died because of his lies about Iraq ?

or perhaps Britain apologises to the millions who died during its Raj In India ?

It would make sense for those who are currently in power to apologise than for people to apologise for the acts of those who have been dead and buried ?

Perhaps we can have a 'World Apology Day' where everyone apologises to everyone else for crimes, whether disputed or not, since time immemorial.

Perhaps we can have a 'World Apology Day' where everyone apologises to everyone else for crimes, whether disputed or not, since time immemorial.

Sounds like a plan, best hurry up as the backlog is building up. :)

Yes , what a good idea ---------A World Apology Day !!
Then , perhaps we wouldn't have to listen to things like that for a few years ?
Governments could issue free handkerchiefs and phrases such as , " We are all here for you " and " We are committing for you " and " We are all guilty " to be taught in every classroom and every Benefits Office .
It would immediately prevent any future tragedies as the World's thugs and dictators realised that they would have to apologise if they did anything remotely naughty .
[ Onions in handkerchiefs are optional ]

Yes , what a good idea ---------A World Apology Day !!
Then , perhaps we wouldn't have to listen to things like that for a few years ?
Governments could issue free handkerchiefs and phrases such as , " We are all here for you " and " We are committing for you " and " We are all guilty " to be taught in every classroom and every Benefits Office .
It would immediately prevent any future tragedies as the World's thugs and dictators realised that they would have to apologise if they did anything remotely naughty .
[ Onions in handkerchiefs are optional ]

It would also create a whole new industry for historians. The UN could appoint a 'Historical Guilt Adjudication Agency', with the sole purpose of ascertaining and apportioning guilt for historical crimes. One snag tohugh would be that many people of mixed ancestry would end up apologising to themselves.

It's very easy to take the mickey here.

Wouldn't it be more helpful, however, to commend the Archbishop for taking this step? Healing and reconciliation in the world have to start somewhere - perhaps if more individuals and institutions held their hands up and said "I/We were wrong" and sincerely offer an apology, the world could start moving forwards, freer of its historical legacy of fear, hate, division, resentment, etc.

Maybe then our descendants would have a chance to make a decent life for everyone on this planet?

Utopian, maybe, but cynicism is not going to get us anywhere.

Why concentrate on the wrongs and injustices of the past, which the majority of nations and peoples of the world have inflicted on others over the centuries, when we all have a future to embrace?

Off my soapbox.

StarSparkle

is he going to start nearer home,how about the scots and irish ? personally ive never felt the benefit of the rape of nations,never having owned a slave,so i will be hoping for exemption from his apologies

Perhaps we can have a 'World Apology Day' where everyone apologises to everyone else for crimes, whether disputed or not, since time immemorial.
Every days an apollogy day for the handwringing Liberal elite :hihi:

It's very easy to take the mickey here.

Wouldn't it be more helpful, however, to commend the Archbishop for taking this step? Healing and reconciliation in the world have to start somewhere - perhaps if more individuals and institutions held their hands up and said "I/We were wrong" and sincerely offer an apology, the world could start moving forwards, freer of its historical legacy of fear, hate, division, resentment, etc.

Maybe then our descendants would have a chance to make a decent life for everyone on this planet?

Utopian, maybe, but cynicism is not going to get us anywhere.

Why concentrate on the wrongs and injustices of the past, which the majority of nations and peoples of the world have inflicted on others over the centuries, when we all have a future to embrace?

Off my soapbox.

StarSparkle
Here here! Beautifully put StarSparkle. I like your idea. here's to the Archbish and to reconciliation,healing and a future free from fear.

The Archbishop is a posturing ninnie! All he will achieve is the perpetuation of the myth of inherited 'racial' guilt. Islamic clerics appear to have more taste and good sense. They will be fully aware, as educated men, of the Muslim Arab role in both the African Slave Trade and the lesser known Barbary Slave Trade of predominantly white, european slaves between the 17th and early 19th Centuries. They will not be offering futile, ludicrous 'apologies' on behalf of the long dead. What with our Lord Protector Blair apologising to 'the Irish nation' for alleged callousness and intransigence on the behalf of the British government in the 1840s in recent times, and damp-eyed Evangelical Anglicans touring the Middle East, weeping copiously as they apologise for The Crusades, maybe British people should immediately kneel and beg forgiveness 'for everything' when encountering foreigners?

I myself have a little apology to make. Having recently discovered [to my eternal shame] that I have Norse Viking ancestry on the paternal line [Oxford Ancestors, did the genetic test], I would therefore like to offer my sincere apologies for the Norse invasions of the Dark Age, and for any inconvenience caused by the slaughter, orgies of rape, sacking of Cathedrals, runic graffiti and general kerfuffel that ensued.

Sorry Starsparkle, but I do not think the Archbishop should apologise.

Can anyone imagine what the hell the German Government would say , if we all began apologising for our past government's and people's "mistakes" ?
" Ladies and gentlemen of the World . [ wrings hands and grovels profusely ] Let me say , first of all , that I know we did overstep the mark a bit in that 20th. century . Old Adolf was a bit of a mischief -maker , wasn't he ! [ ha ha ha ha ha ] No , but seriously , I would like to apologise if we did disrupt any lives in Russia and places like that . I know from what my aides have told me that a lot of Slavs and such , had to be re-housed .
We obviously ought to have had some sort of written permission from The League of Nations before we went round invading everywhere .We know that NOW , of course , but at the time it seemed the right thing to do .Wrong !!
People don't realise of course that there were some positive spin-offs as well as little problems with World War 2 . After all , it did bring the Yanks into Europe , with that Marshall Plan thing and all those lovely billions of dollars ---------and they kept them ruddy Russkies at bay for 50 years .So , perhaps there was a method in old Adolf's madness , after all ; heads I win , tails you lose ---------so to speak .!
So , although , we are one Grossdeutschland again and it's caused a few problems , I can still find time to say " Sorry "for any inconvenience we caused .Also , I bet if you look a bit deeper you'll find it was them Brits wo started all the trouble in the first place .
Guten Abend , Alles . "

will we be allowed to keep any dignity or pride in our selves by this time next year, i wonder ? remember when this was popular ?
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.stuart/music/lyrics/jerusale.html

Why not have an Official Apology Day, preferably an extra Bank Holiday in mid-Summer.

We could set up a Ministry of Apologies, complete with a Permanent Secretary of State, a Historical Research Directorate, Public Enquiries, Compensation Courts of Mourning and a plethora of Guardian readers as Advisors, all backed up with a Special Apology Fund to re-imburse those whose ancestors suffered. :)

Free Cat-O- Nine tails to thrash ourselves with in public.
Perhaps it was it something I saw on the television recently, I don't think it was in England .......
I wonder where it was :loopy:

Oh sorry, I was getting that mixed up with the Church of England....... :)

This orgy of moral self-flagellation will lead to no good. Far from having a cathartic and healing effect, it is much more likely to promote a culture of historical resentment and victimhood, particularly if it is allied to the flourishing compensation (or 'shakedown') culture. At least the flagellants of the middle ages were punishing themselves for their own perceived sins. The moral sado-masochists of the CofE wish to go one step further and flagellate themselves and us for the alleged crimes of our ancestors. The concept of historical guilt is one which should be exposed for the dangerous nonsense it is rather than encouraged by people who ought to know better.

This orgy of moral self-flagellation will lead to no good. Far from having a cathartic and healing effect, it is much more likely to promote a culture of historical resentment and victimhood, particularly if it is allied to the flourishing compensation (or 'shakedown') culture. At least the flagellants of the middle ages were punishing themselves for their own perceived sins. The moral sado-masochists of the CofE wish to go one step further and flagellate themselves and us for the alleged crimes of our ancestors. The concept of historical guilt is one which should be exposed for the dangerous nonsense it is rather than encouraged by people who ought to know better.

Lord C, as usual I have to heartily agree with your sentiments here. The C of E PR department, undoubtedly looking at its dwindling attendances and general apathy to its very existence, has come up with another 'gem' to try and keep its profile in the public perception. Will they feel so self satisfied when they pick up the writ from some African-American pressure group sueing it for long-past misdemeanours as Lloyds of London found in recent years, I wonder?:loopy: :loopy:

This orgy of moral self-flagellation will lead to no good. Far from having a cathartic and healing effect, it is much more likely to promote a culture of historical resentment and victimhood, particularly if it is allied to the flourishing compensation (or 'shakedown') culture. At least the flagellants of the middle ages were punishing themselves for their own perceived sins. The moral sado-masochists of the CofE wish to go one step further and flagellate themselves and us for the alleged crimes of our ancestors. The concept of historical guilt is one which should be exposed for the dangerous nonsense it is rather than encouraged by people who ought to know better.

I certainly don't believe in the idea of 'historical guilt' - I think any attempt to instil 'inherited guilt' in people/s is pernicious and wrong and misplaced.

However - the world is full of resentments and hatreds that originate from hundreds of years ago that don't seem keen to go away in a hurry. Timo has recently pointed out on this Forum the ridiculousness of the Northern Ireland situation, where the Catholic and Protestant communities are in reality much more closely inter-related than either community appears to be happy to acknowledge.

Like I said earlier, maybe I am being unrealistically Utopian, but surely it's time to move on from these ancient quarrels, wherever in the world they are or whoever they involve? It's all gone - however much certain events in history are to be regretted, there's no changing them - isn't it better to look ahead and concentrate on all our futures?

I'm very disappointed in the cynical responses on this thread - at least the Archbishop is trying to take some positive steps forward and trying to bring about reconciliation. If people like him don't try and work towards laying historical grievances to rest, the world is just going to rumble on in its current self-destructive manner.

Off my soapbox again.

StarSparkle

It is terrible that man's inhumanity to man during history led to some terrible deeds.........

but the clock cannot be turned back.

The following not a joke:

Clyde is a black American who was on a contract working in West Africa. His wife is West African and while he was working there they spent some time finding out about his origins. He had even gone so far as making arrangements to sponsor/adopt a distant relation so they could return with him to the USA for a better education.

During conversation, I asked him what it was like after finding his "roots". He replied:

"... I'm sure glad my folks didn't miss that boat!"

At the risk of sounding terribly patronising, I am heartily glad that you are in this world, Starsparkle. You make it a shinier, happier, more optimistic place. I imagine that you have contributed far more to the sum of human happiness [and certainly to the gaiety of the Forum] than a cynical old paleoconservative like myself . It would not do for the world to be dominated by 'little Englanders' like me , with their deep mistrust of human nature, international idealism and utopian panaceas. Nevertheless, I cannot help my nature. My instincts are deeply conservative, and I harbour great reservations and misgivings about this 'craze' for earnestness and contrition that has gripped so many politicians of the left/liberal consensus, 'progressive' Bishops etc. As Lord C has wisely and convincingly suggested, this 'self-flagellation' may well backfire in the sense that already anti-Western ethno-religious groups may be stirred to fury by a bolstered sense of 'victimhood'. If the Archbishop of Canterbury were to knock on my office door seeking advice [which, I agree , is most unlikely], I would tell the simpering, equivocal old fool to leave well alone.

You mention my postings in which I recently attempted to show that there are closer cultural and genetic links between the Protestant and Catholic communities in Northern Ireland than is popularly supposed or acknowledged. I also endeavoured to highlight the socially-constructed myths which serve to maintain the respective cultures of norms/values. I made the point that so often what people believe to be the case is actually more important than what is the case. With regard to the Ulster communities, the myths are so deeply embedded and entrenched that to 'deconstruct' would be to effectively demolish the foundations of an ethnic/religious culture. The myths are so deeply cherished that people will wage war in order to maintain them. Despite the seeming 'ridiculousness' of the politics of ethnic identity in Ulster, the situation is insoluble. Victory for one side means abject despair for the other. Any withdrawal of British troops would lead to a continuation of the conflict on this side of the water by extremists in Glasgow, Liverpool and possibly Manchester. The same miserable situation, or variants upon it, can be found all over the globe.

Well-meant interventions and contrition can often make a bad situation even worse. It is surely often the best solution to apply the rule, 'least said, soonest heals'. That is a truly paleoconservative maxim. It goes hand in hand with ,'leave well alone'. I am reminded of a line from Graham Greene's, 'The Quiet American'; 'I never knew a man with better motives for all the trouble he caused'. I wish the Prime Minister and the Archbishop of Canterbury would read Graham Greene.

At the risk of sounding terribly patronising, I am heartily glad that you are in this world, Starsparkle. You make it a shinier, happier, more optimistic place. I imagine that you have contributed far more to the sum of human happiness [and certainly to the gaiety of the Forum] than a cynical old paleoconservative like myself . It would not do for the world to be dominated by 'little Englanders' like me , with their deep mistrust of human nature, international idealism and utopian panaceas. Nevertheless, I cannot help my nature. My instincts are deeply conservative, and I harbour great reservations and misgivings about this 'craze' for earnestness and contrition that has gripped so many politicians of the left/liberal consensus, 'progressive' Bishops etc. As Lord C has wisely and convincingly suggested, this 'self-flagellation' may well backfire in the sense that already anti-Western ethno-religious groups may be stirred to fury by a bolstered sense of 'victimhood'. If the Archbishop of Canterbury were to knock on my office door seeking advice [which, I agree , is most unlikely], I would tell the simpering, equivocal old fool to leave well alone.

You mention my postings in which I recently attempted to show that there are closer cultural and genetic links between the Protestant and Catholic communities in Northern Ireland than is popularly supposed or acknowledged. I also endeavoured to highlight the socially-constructed myths which serve to maintain the respective cultures of norms/values. I made the point that so often what people believe to be the case is actually more important than what is the case. With regard to the Ulster communities, the myths are so deeply embedded and entrenched that to 'deconstruct' would be to effectively demolish the foundations of an ethnic/religious culture. The myths are so deeply cherished that people will wage war in order to maintain them. Despite the seeming 'ridiculousness' of the politics of ethnic identity in Ulster, the situation is insoluble. Victory for one side means abject despair for the other. Any withdrawal of British troops would lead to a continuation of the conflict on this side of the water by extremists in Glasgow, Liverpool and possibly Manchester. The same miserable situation, or variants upon it, can be found all over the globe.

Well-meant interventions and contrition can often make a bad situation even worse. It is surely often the best solution to apply the rule, 'least said, soonest heals'. That is a truly paleoconservative maxim. It goes hand in hand with ,'leave well alone'. I am reminded of a line from Graham Greene's, 'The Quiet American'; 'I never knew a man with better motives for all the trouble he caused'. I wish the Prime Minister and the Archbishop of Canterbury would read Graham Greene.

With due respect, do you, as a job, write the application forms for Social Security, Disability Benefits or perhaps, as a side line, the small print at the bottom of Hire Purchase/Insurance Policy Documents?

or perhaps Britain apologises to the millions who died during its Raj In India ?
Zafar. I don't believe that millions did die because of British rule in India. I don't agree with colonialism or imperialism but in hindsight the people under British rule were far better treated than the ones under French,Spanish, Portugese, Dutch or Russian etc. I personally don't feel that the average British workingman should be apologizing for anything. They didn't exploit anyone. the upper classes did. Furthermore the old British colonialists left their colonies in far better shape than other Europian powers. To its shame England treated the Irish far worse than any of the other colonies, but the Irish moved on.

at least the Archbishop is trying to take some positive steps forward and trying to bring about reconciliation. If people like him don't try and work towards laying historical grievances to rest, the world is just going to rumble on in its current self-destructive manner.
StarSparkle

Well Sparkle, as you know I hold you in the very highest regard on this forum and love your posts, but for once I must disagree with you.

Far from leading to reconciliation, this policy is far more likely to exacerbate conflicts and to inflame rather than salve old wounds. The principal beneficiaries will be grudge holding demagogues of one kind or another and ambulance chasing shyster lawyers seeking compensation for historical wrongs. It seems to me that it would be a classic example of the adage that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Zafar. I don't believe that millions did die because of British rule in India. I don't agree with colonialism or imperialism but in hindsight the people under British rule were far better treated than the ones under French,Spanish, Portugese, Dutch or Russian etc. I personally don't feel that the average British workingman should be apologizing for anything. They didn't exploit anyone. the upper classes did. Furthermore the old British colonialists left their colonies in far better shape than other Europian powers. To its shame England treated the Irish far worse than any of the other colonies, but the Irish moved on.

Hi Chuffinel,

I totally agree that the average British working man has nothing to apologise about, however, I do believe that it is everyone's responsibility to be aware of what happened in the past and inparticular what occurred during the British Raj.

We seem to look at the Raj through the lenses of nostalgia, especially as it was during the victorian period.

However the truth is given very little exposure in our history today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India

There were approximately 25 major famines during the latter half of the 19th century, killing between 30-40 million Indians in the period as India's industries suffered almost total collapse, with its skilled workers driven out of work while British imports flooded into the Indian markets.

The famines were a product both of uneven rainfall and British economic and administrative policies, which since 1857 had led to the seizure and conversion of local farmland to foreign-owned plantations, restrictions on internal trade, heavy taxation of Indian citizens to support unsuccessful British expeditions in Afghanistan (Second Anglo-Afghan War), inflationary measures that increased the price of food, and substantial exports of staple crops from India to Britain.

Some British citizens such as William Digby agitated for policy reforms and famine relief, but Lord Lytton, the governing British viceroy in India, opposed such changes in the belief that they would stimulate shirking by Indian workers. The first Bengal famine of 1770 is estimated to have taken nearly one-third of the population. The famines continued until independence in 1948, with the Bengal famine of 1943-44—among the most devastating—killing 3-4 million Indians during World War II.

Would it be fair to conclude that Lord Lytton makes Robert Mugabe look like a angel ?

Personally I dont believe we should be apologising for the acts of those who are dead and buried. Most reasonable people do not hold a child guilty for the crimes of his or her Father, and in many instances here we are talking about several generations ago (atleast).

What we must do however is to recognise the errors of our forefathers (which his not the same as making some pointless and meaningless apology) and not to condone them in some misplaced sense of pride.

The people who were wronged are long dead, along with those who wronged them.

Z

Shoeshine,
No. I lecture in Sociology, Philosophy and Criminology at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels. What is your point, sir?

He means you're verbose.

Teafan,
Thanks. I'd never have guessed. Verbose? Moi?

Teafan,
Thanks. I'd never have guessed. Verbose? Moi?

Indubitably.

Intrinsically?

Intrinsically?

As a philosophy lecturer, you well know that you are not intrinsically verbose:)

I can be, sometimes.

MOD: Now then girls, take it to the chat room, please.

Sorry Max, I'm in one of those moods today. Not to worry though, I have a very busy afternoon lined up.:) :)

Ooh, hark at her etc. Back to topic- Chuffinel refers to British colonialism in Ireland, and claims that 'the Irish have moved on'. By 'moved on', I assume my fellow poster means that the general population have come to terms with the history of the so-called 'English interference in Irish affairs', and bear little ill will towards the descendants of the 'adventurers for land' in Munster, Ulster etc? If so, I respectfully dissent from Chuffinel's opinion. In my experience, large numbers of Catholic Irish realise that the idea of inherited racial guilt is a fatuous idea. I have met and taught many who have no desire whatsoever for 'revenge' upon the English/British, and could not care less about the Republican ideal of a 'united Ireland'. They do not give a fig if Sinn Fein's day never comes, to paraphrase a Republican saying. Nevertheless, I have encountered other Irish people, on both sides of the water, who most definately do bear an irremediable grudge against the British, and especially towards the English.

Blair's apology for alleged British callousness and intransigence at the time of the Potato Famine will have been music to the ears of a certain kind of Republican. Such types already view their ethnic group as 'victims', and a 'heroic', beaten people thanks to Republican historical revisionism and the self-aggrandising myths that pass for Irish history as taught in many Eire schools. There is a whole industry based around Hibernian 'victimhood ' in America too, based around the Boston and New York Irish. They are part of the Irish diaspora, larger even than the present population of the Emerald Isle, and they are indoctrinated from the tenderest years to hate the British, and especially the 'cruel' English, with great passion. 'Moved on'? There will always be a sizeable minority for whom, 'England's downfall is Ireland's opportunity'. Or something to that effect.

Ooh, hark at her etc. Back to topic- Chuffinel refers to British colonialism in Ireland, and claims that 'the Irish have moved on'. By 'moved on', I assume my fellow poster means that the general population have come to terms with the history of the so-called 'English interference in Irish affairs', and bear little ill will towards the descendants of the 'adventurers for land' in Munster, Ulster etc? If so, I respectfully dissent from Chuffinel's opinion. In my experience, large numbers of Catholic Irish realise that the idea of inherited racial guilt is a fatuous idea. I have met and taught many who have no desire whatsoever for 'revenge' upon the English/British, and could not care less about the Republican ideal of a 'united Ireland'. They do not give a fig if Sinn Fein's day never comes, to paraphrase a Republican saying. Nevertheless, I have encountered other Irish people, on both sides of the water, who most definately do bear an irremediable grudge against the British, and especially towards the English.

Blair's apology for alleged British callousness and intransigence at the time of the Potato Famine will have been music to the ears of a certain kind of Republican. Such types already view their ethnic group as 'victims', and a 'heroic', beaten people thanks to Republican historical revisionism and the self-aggrandising myths that pass for Irish history as taught in many Eire schools. There is a whole industry based around Hibernian 'victimhood ' in America too, based around the Boston and New York Irish. They are part of the Irish diaspora, larger even than the present population of the Emerald Isle, and they are indoctrinated from the tenderest years to hate the British, and especially the 'cruel' English, with great passion. 'Moved on'? There will always be a sizeable minority for whom, 'England's downfall is Ireland's opportunity'. Or something to that effect.

Well said Timo.

If we do go down the road of moral self-flagellation by seeking out 'historical wrongs' to apologise for, perhaps we ought at least to counterbalance it with the creation of an agency for the determination of historical rights and achievements. We could even have a 'World League Table of National Contributions To Humanity'. As someone once said, Britain is surely one of the most culturally fertile patches of earth on the planet. I think we Brits would score very highly (indeed, we would be a leading 'club' in the premier league) whereas many of our critics would not even make the Conference League.

Thankyou Lord C, for your kind words. I like your footballing analogy, and agree that Britain would be in the top flight re any league table of 'fertile', humane cultures. In contrast to which country, nation, political system or colonial 'adventure' is Britain to be judged so harshly? As Roger Scruton has cogently suggested, just which European country entered the modern world with less bloodshed, less turmoil, less cruelty, less injustice than Britain? I am not one for self-deception, and am perfectly conscious of our country's historical deficits- the Slave Trade, the oppression of the Irish and other peoples, the persecution of witches, the treatment of children in Victorian factories, the long traditions of anti-semitism and anti-Catholicism, the condition of women pre -Pankhurst etc. The point is, these deficits pale in comparison to those of many other European countries, not to mention many in Africa [including the Middle East] and Asia.

In my previous posting I referred to how history is often taught in Eire schools, in other words in the form of self-vaunting myths. The same is true, to a lesser effect, in some Welsh and Scottish schools. By contrast, English students often arrive at University with only the vaguest picture of English history. As Scruton once said, 'Nelson, to the majority of them, is Nelson Mandela, and Wellington no more than a boot'. They will have learned, of course, how Englishmen were involved in the African Slave Trade, but not, quelle supris, that England set an example to the entire world by actually outlawing it. They are taught the history of their nation as one long tale of crime and exploitation . One slack-jawed undergraduate confirmed this to me recently [not that I needed it confirming] when he said, 'Well, I mean, we've oppressed everybody.The British, like, were really really bad, weren't they?' Comment would be superfluous.

ps. Great to see you have gone back to your origin avatar of Gollum in a Burberry Baseball Cap, Lord C. The original is the best, the mark of SF's true Aristocrat!

As an English protestant married to an Irish catholic, who makes an annual visit to County Clare, I have rarely ever encountered any animosity toward me. Many of my wife's relatives are Irish American and there is definitely more animosity to England as a nation, but once again seldom toward English people as such.
Ireland is an enigma. One one hand they talk of 800 years of oppression, then madly support English football teams, used to go to England for vacations, jobs, abiortions, and divorces until the government finally broke the stranglehold of the church, brought on by the pediphile, laundries and other scandals. The fact that they are staying home because of the Celtic tiger stems from this time.

Well said Timo, as usual. One could indeed be forgiven for thinking that the main purpose of history syllabi in our schools today is to inculcate in our students a sense of self-loathing and self-abnegation with regard to our Imperial past. Unfortunately, these malign conceptions are likely to be reinforced by ludicrously biassed and selective films such as 'Passage To India' or 'Gandhi', where the British are almost invariably portrayed as boorish, oafish and vicious oppressors.

The malign influence of 'multiculturalism' is also at work here, in that one of its central premises is that all cultures are deserving of equal 'respect' (indeed, that minority cultures deserve promotion simply because they do not receive as much attention as the majority culture). Well, when these cultures produce great works on a par with the greatest achievements of Western civilization, I will be only too pleased to praise them. Unfortunately, many of the fiercest critics of the West are the products themselves of failed states, failed societies and failed cultures.

ps - glad you prefer my original avatar. The previous one was definitely a style error which I will endeavour not to repeat!

ludicrously biassed and selective films such as 'Passage To India' or 'Gandhi', where the British are almost invariably portrayed as boorish, oafish and vicious oppressors.

Or 'The Patriot'. Or 'Braveheart', if you read 'English' for 'British'.

Or 'The Patriot'. Or 'Braveheart', if you read 'English' for 'British'.

Very true Captain, very true. Indeed, English actors are so used to playing the bad guys that they are almost invariably cast in the role of Nazis in films about WW2.

Well said Timo, as usual. One could indeed be forgiven for thinking that the main purpose of history syllabi in our schools today is to inculcate in our students a sense of self-loathing and self-abnegation with regard to our Imperial past. Unfortunately, these malign conceptions are likely to be reinforced by ludicrously biassed and selective films such as 'Passage To India' or 'Gandhi', where the British are almost invariably portrayed as boorish, oafish and vicious oppressors.

The malign influence of 'multiculturalism' is also at work here, in that one of its central premises is that all cultures are deserving of equal 'respect' (indeed, that minority cultures deserve promotion simply because they do not receive as much attention as the majority culture). Well, when these cultures produce great works on a par with the greatest achievements of Western civilization, I will be only too pleased to praise them. Unfortunately, many of the fiercest critics of the West are the products themselves of failed states, failed societies and failed cultures.

ps - glad you prefer my original avatar. The previous one was definitely a style error which I will endeavour not to repeat!

Ah, but you really are smart enough to know that the value which anyone chooses to place on cultural achievements is completely and utterly subjective. If you need this proving to you, you can ask your philosophy-lecturing chum.

[QUOTE=Zafar]Hi Chuffinel,

I totally agree that the average British working man has nothing to apologise about, however, I do believe that it is everyone's responsibility to be aware of what happened in the past and inparticular what occurred during the British Raj.

We seem to look at the Raj through the lenses of nostalgia, especially as it was during the victorian period.

However the truth is given very little exposure in our history today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India

Hey Zafar, thanks for the information. Your last sentence about the truth being given little exposure today would have been applicable when I was at school many years ago. Never heard a peep in history class about those created famines and I stand corrected in my previous beliefs. It's really no mystery why people such as Lord Lytton had no sympathy for any lesser mortals whatever their nationality. They were the elite and anyone of a lower class was little better than an animal. Thanks

Ah, but you really are smart enough to know that the value which anyone chooses to place on cultural achievements is completely and utterly subjective. If you need this proving to you, you can ask your philosophy-lecturing chum.

Well, the measurement of cultural achievements is indeed ultimately subjective, but by no means completely and utterly so. I am entitled to my opinion that a culture capable of producing the Brandenburg concertos or of Shakespeare's plays (or many thousands of other towering artistic and scientific achievements I could mention) is indeed culturally superior to societies whose contribution to scientific achievement appears to have been zero and whose 'art' is so limited in range and scope. Cultural relativism is yet another form of political correctness which we could well do without.

Well, the measurement of cultural achievements is indeed ultimately subjective, but by no means completely and utterly so. I am entitled to my opinion that a culture capable of producing the Brandenburg concertos or of Shakespeare's plays (or many thousands of other towering artistic and scientific achievements I could mention) is indeed culturally superior to societies whose contribution to scientific achievement appears to have been zero and whose 'art' is so limited in range and scope. Cultural relativism is yet another form of political correctness which we could well do without.

Lord Chaverly, I agree with you entirely. Our civilisation has produced the most pronounced achievements in Literature, Music, Scientific and Societal Improvements throughout the World.

We should be proud of that fact.

Our children should be taught how great those achievements have been in the context of civilisation, not fobbed off with examples which only look back a few years in our recent history.

Therein lies the future for our children..not apologies for the past, but with pride in it.

I myself have a little apology to make. Having recently discovered [to my eternal shame] that I have Norse Viking ancestry on the paternal line [Oxford Ancestors, did the genetic test], I would therefore like to offer my sincere apologies for the Norse invasions of the Dark Age, and for any inconvenience caused by the slaughter, orgies of rape, sacking of Cathedrals, runic graffiti and general kerfuffel that ensued.

.

It is with a sincere feeling of gratitude that I accept your apology on behalf of my 40xggrandmother who was violated in 963AD by your Viking ancestor.
It has caused a lot of trauma to our family over the years and we are only just coming to terms with it,thanks to a lot of counselling on the NHS
Many thanks fromyour very distant cousin.

What a load of c..p all this apologising is for past deeds for which we have no responsibility.

Davyboy,
Do you know, I've tossed and turned [ooer] over this issue for years. Thankyou so very much for accepting my sincere apology for what Hakon did to fair Gunilla all those years ago, in the 'summer of rape' that was 963AD . Imagine the poor wench's despair as she saw the black-sailed ships approaching, and heard the ominous 'Yuk sah hey!' chanting of the burly 'Sons of the Fiords' . I was going to seek CognitiveTherapy to help me get over the inherited Norse guilt, but your words are like a soothing balm to me, cousin.

It is with a sincere feeling of gratitude that I accept your apology on behalf of my 40xggrandmother who was violated in 963AD by your Viking ancestor.
It has caused a lot of trauma to our family over the years and we are only just coming to terms with it,thanks to a lot of counselling on the NHS
Many thanks fromyour very distant cousin.

What a load of c..p all this apologising is for past deeds for which we have no responsibility.

davyboy, may I add my sincere commiserations for the long term trauma you and yours have had to endure.

I will be sending an immediate complaint to the successors of the Viking Nobility and demand a full explanation of why, where and how this outrage upon a 40x grandmother was committed.

We shall not rest until you and yours obtain suitable recompense for the injuries of body and mind received..

ps can we settle it at £20 + VAT (commission- free) if they okay it at that?

:thumbsup:

Thanks a million, Shoeshine old fruit. I suppose it will be Muggins here, Hakon's direct descendant, who has to cough up the readies, in common parlance, eh?!

Thanks a million, Shoeshine old fruit. I suppose it will be Muggins here, Hakon's direct descendant, who has to cough up the readies, in common parlance, eh?!

OK, for you then, £10 and no VAT, as long as it's cash.

ps do you need a Plumber, Plasterer, Painter? Cheap with cash in hand..no VAT........ :thumbsup:

I'm afraid this makes my blood boil. Why in the name that is all good and decent should one generation have to feel the compulsion to apologise for the actions of another? It's all tosh! It started out with a forced American guilt by minority groups which spread throughout the globe impregnating the predominant gender/race/religion with a need to apologise for its success in screwing over another group.

I couldn't give a monkey's toss if X amount of years ago a member of my family sold someone else. They did it, not me. So screw anyone who thinks that I should have to apologise for some kind of inherrited guilt. My Great Grandfather ran a plantation in India in the early 1900's - I'm certain that he had his hand in a number of shady and unsavoury practices which exploited many people who were unable or unwilling to defend themselves. Do I personally feel the need to apologise for his actions? Do I hell.

It's a very simple premise which I present to all the "injured" parties: Get over it, get over your self and get over your ancestors. Me for one, I couldn't give a tu'penny damn.

Swan Vesta,
There is a ferocious magnificence about your posting. We do not hear enough from you on the forum. May I congratulate you on the vituperative merits of your splendid phrase, 'I couldn't give a tu'penny damn'. Full marks, old bean!

I'm afraid this makes my blood boil. Why in the name that is all good and decent should one generation have to feel the compulsion to apologise for the actions of another? It's all tosh! It started out with a forced American guilt by minority groups which spread throughout the globe impregnating the predominant gender/race/religion with a need to apologise for its success in screwing over another group.

I couldn't give a monkey's toss if X amount of years ago a member of my family sold someone else. They did it, not me. So screw anyone who thinks that I should have to apologise for some kind of inherited guilt. My Great Grandfather ran a plantation in India in the early 1900's - I'm certain that he had his hand in a number of shady and unsavoury practises which exploited many people who were unable or unwilling to defend themselves. Do I personally feel the need to apologise for his actions? Do I hell.

It's a very simple premise which I present to all the "injured" parties: Get over it, get over your self and get over your ancestors. Me for one, I couldn't give a tu'penny damn.
I just may have to open another bottle of wine to drink to you ( Any excuse) but I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments. What next? Apologising for sinking the Spanish Armada? Or beating the Aussie's in the Rugby World Cup? Perhaps this would be as sincere as the Catholic Church apologising for child abuse, whilst still allowing it to continue? I've never noticed the Arab's apologise for their part in the slave trade??

Just seen where our very own Archbishop of Canterbury is to apologise about the Chuch's role in the Slave Trade .
Maybe his forbears did benefit by the Slave Trade and so he feels a need to apologise but for the vast majority of us whose great -great grandparents were workers on the land .......etc........ perhaps he'll skip the apologies ?
Also , let's hope that other people follow the good Archbishop's example !
Perhaps the descendants of the African Chiefs who sold so many of their fellow-countrymen into slavery will now apologies ? Perhaps the Barbary -Coast Arabs will apologies to all the people they enslaved ? Perhaps the Saudi peninsula Arabs will apologise for taking people for slavery from N. E. Africa ? Perhaps the Russians will say they 're very sorry indeed for what they did in E. Europe between 1945 and 1990 ? Perhaps the French , Spanish and Portugese will apologise for all their bad behaviour in Asia , Africa and S. America ?
Perhaps everybody who has done anything a bit dodgy will apologies to those they have offended ? Perhaps ?
But , I wouldn't hold my breath ............

What about the Danish, Swedish, Norwegians for the rape and pillage, how dare they come over here in their Longships, the Viking swines. The thought of the blonde haired brutes with their big horns forcing themselves on my distant relatives turns my stomach.

[QUOTE=Zafar]Hi Chuffinel,

I totally agree that the average British working man has nothing to apologise about, however, I do believe that it is everyone's responsibility to be aware of what happened in the past and inparticular what occurred during the British Raj.

We seem to look at the Raj through the lenses of nostalgia, especially as it was during the victorian period.

However the truth is given very little exposure in our history today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India

Hey Zafar, thanks for the information. Your last sentence about the truth being given little exposure today would have been applicable when I was at school many years ago. Never heard a peep in history class about those created famines and I stand corrected in my previous beliefs. It's really no mystery why people such as Lord Lytton had no sympathy for any lesser mortals whatever their nationality. They were the elite and anyone of a lower class was little better than an animal. Thanks

Hi chuffinel,

No worries :)

Take Care

Z

Thank you Timo and Cloudybay,

To borrow a phrase from the hip youths "I was on one!" last night. It just maddens me that society is being steered towards the rocks of continual apology by those who want to further their own positions.

If memory serves me there was a law suit from the descendants of a slave (circa 1700) who were suing for damages to the tune of obscene $$'s - I believe that it was unsucessful but this further highlights that it's not about the haves apologising to the have nots, it's all about how much money can we get. If it was truly about morality then an apology would be sufficient, once the blood sucking laywers get wheeled out of their crypts then the moral high ground is immediately lost.

I agree that the slave trade was a dirty practice where money was made through the sale of a human life, but is it not grubbier to trade on the names of your centuries dead ancestors to try and wring another dollar from the coffers?

[QUOTE=chuffinel]

Hi chuffinel,

No worries :)

Take Care

Z

Zafar, there were famines in India before, during and after the Raj. The contention that those during the Raj were worse and were largely a result of British policies is exactly that - i.e. a contention (made usually by leftist or nationalistic Indian historians with axes to grind, such as the one you quote). It seems unlikely that accurate records were kept of many of these famines, so that estimates of fatalities could be wildly inaccurate anyway. Some colonial governors were good and some bad. Some British policies were good for India (a fact that even Marx acknowledged) and some were bad. On balance, I think the British empire was a very bad idea (not least for Britain), but as empires go it was one of the very best and certainly had some virtues.

There is of course another history of imperial conquest and oppression on the Indian sub-continent of which you may not have been made aware of. That is the brutal conquest and islamification of Sindh and other areas of what is roughly Pakistan by Arab invaders such as Mohammed bin Qasim in the early 8th century and beyond. Again, historians have very different views on what actually happened during this period, but there is a considerable body of evidence to suggest that this process of Islamification of Hindu populations resulted in large measure from forced conversions. There is also much evidence that this conquest was very bloody and resulted in mass slaughter and enslavement of those who resisted.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the writings of V.S.Naipaul, but he has a theory that Pakistani muslims are still a 'colonised' people, in that they are colonised by the Arab culture and religion imposed on their ancestors many centuries ago (he has said the same about Iranians). Given the incalculable degree of misery and suffering caused by wars between muslims and hindus on the Indian sub-continent over many centuries, arguably the arrival of the Syrian Qasim in the region in the 8th century is a much greater cause for lament than the arrival of the East India Company in 18th century. At least the British Raj had a policy of non-conversion by force (and indeed actively discouraged the activities of Christian missionaries).

Well , what a surprise !!
If our conduct in India was even half as bad as Zafar makes out , I think the Indian Governments over the past 50 years and the Indian people in general should be ashamed of themselves .
They have chosen to remain a Commonwealth country after the Empire was dismantled.
Millions [?] or at least hundreds of thousands have made the U.K. their home since 1947 and have prospered here . Shame on them for settling in such a brutal regime !
The English language and the English Civil Service System is still largely admired in India . How insensitive can they be . Fancy carrying on the traditions and language of such a horrible country !
I'm sure the original Brits who lived here pre-0 B.C felt the same about the Romans .

This orgy of moral self-flagellation will lead to no good. Far from having a cathartic and healing effect, it is much more likely to promote a culture of historical resentment and victimhood, particularly if it is allied to the flourishing compensation (or 'shakedown') culture. At least the flagellants of the middle ages were punishing themselves for their own perceived sins. The moral sado-masochists of the CofE wish to go one step further and flagellate themselves and us for the alleged crimes of our ancestors. The concept of historical guilt is one which should be exposed for the dangerous nonsense it is rather than encouraged by people who ought to know better.

I have some old potato sacks in my garden shed and if this very silly man wants to come and clean my grate he can have all the ashes he can shovel as long as he makes it very clear that he is not apologising in my name

I have some old potato sacks in my garden shed and if this very silly man wants to come and clean my grate he can have all the ashes he can shovel as long as he makes it very clear that he is not apologising in my name

Well said rainbow. As Sam Goldwyn said it a different context, 'include me out'.

As the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, is a Swansea lad, perhaps English people of Saxon origin should apologise to him for driving his ancestors into the Welsh hills and valleys, or perhaps those with Norman ancestry could offer their sincere apologies for the persecution of Owen Glyndwr and his followers, or for other wrongs done to those living on the wrong side of Offa's dyke

Lord C,
The poor, mad Archbishop also suffers the indignity of bearing a 'Welsh' surname of Norman origin in Williams too. Next time I am in the Cotentin, I shall tell the locals that modern day Normans should apologise for what the Marcher Lords did to a peaceful, sheep-loving people. Oh dear, come to think of it, I have a few Norman names in my family tree too [Copping, Beaumont, Jarvis etc]. I had better apologise both to the Bishop and to the people of Wales immediately. As the late Peter Simple's Dr Spacely-Trellis would say, 'We are ALL guilty!'

Lord C,
The poor, mad Archbishop also suffers the indignity of bearing a 'Welsh' surname of Norman origin in Williams too. Next time I am in the Cotentin, I shall tell the locals that modern day Normans should apologise for what the Marcher Lords did to a peaceful, sheep-loving people. Oh dear, come to think of it, I have a few Norman names in my family tree too [Copping, Beaumont, Jarvis etc]. I had better apologise both to the Bishop and to the people of Wales immediately. As the late Peter Simple's Dr Spacely-Trellis would say, 'We are ALL guilty!'

Dear Timo,

What a fruitful new industry for genealogists you have discovered. Perhaps each of us could explore our ancestries, supplemented with DNA sampling, to acertain precisely the proportions of our genes which can be traced back to the Beaker people, the Ancient Britons, Picts, Romans, Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans and other assorted groups. We could then ask the Research Centre for the Attribution of Historical Guilt to apportion the correct amount of blame for each of these contributors to our genetic make-up. I am not aware that I have any Pictish blood in my veins, but i could be wrong, so there could well be the germ of an apology lurking somewhere in my conscience just waiting for an opportunity to genefluct in front of the aggrieved populace of Northern England.

By the way, I was thinking of the 'We Are All Guilty!' phrase this morning and meant to post a reference to it earlier, but you beat me to it! Although it could well have been used by the egregious cleric Spacely-Trellis, I believe it is more associated with the mad academic Dr.Heinz Kiosk (although the famous Hamstead thinker Mrs. Dutt-Pauker also no doubt heartily agreed with this sentiment also)

Anyway, whichever of Peter Simple's, wonderful creations is associated with the phrase, it certainly manages to capture the contemporary moral compass of today's self-flagellating bishops. Peter Simple, how prescient you were!

Yes , the old hand-wringing Bish. and Peter Simple-------------

another clear example of Life imitating Art.

Lord C,
You mention 'failed cultures' previously. The late Harvard Professor of Physical Anthropology, Carleton Coon, always maintained that the Australian Aborigines ['Australoids' according to Coon's typological classifications] were representatives of a failed culture. According to the scholar, the Aboriginal population were vestigial, evolutionary failures themselves. Of course, since the publication of Coon's 'The Living Races of Mankind' in the 1960s, his work has been 'discredited' by the social-constructionists, postmodernists, and cultural anthropologists of the left/liberal consensus, and Physical Anthropology is now a relative academic backwater, peopled by scholars too frightened to disagree with the panjandrums of Egalitarianism.

Recently, I watched film of a group of semi-naked, white Australian 'multiculturalist' protesters daubed in traditional Aboriginal tribal bodypaint. They were campaigning for 'more rights' for the Aboriginal community, and for the government to apologise for colonial theft and atrocity. Of course, fiscal compensation was included in the demands. As they twitched and made movements as if in the throes of rheumatic agony, in imitation of Aboriginal 'dancing', the scene gave me pause for thought. How can Professor Coon have been so blinkered? The culture of the ancestors of the protesters, which produced Shakespeare, Purcell and Turner, cannot possibly compete with such a rich, ancient one as that of the Aborigines. Who are those half-forgotten minor figures in comparison with a culture that has produced the Didgeridoo and Dream Spots?

timo, please don't "knock" the didgerido. A fellow Member of SF, namely one pedro1 (A pseudonym by all accounts) is trying to learn the art of blowing down to the far end of same.

He is currently flexing his lungs in preparation as we speak, blowing up balloons for his 90th birthday party.

Does he twitch about in tribal bodypaint whilst munching Witchiti grubs as well? The daft old beggar.

Does he twitch about in tribal bodypaint whilst munching Witchiti grubs as well? The daft old beggar.

He is known to buy a tin or two of Dulux, yes!:thumbsup:

He's probably hoping for a spot on BBC3's 'World Music' programme, so that the sonorous soulful sounds of the didgerido can take their rightful place alongside the warblings of African nose flutes and the clicking vocal rhythms of Kalahari bushmen. As a concession to cultural syncretism, these sounds will be rebranded as 'the classical music of the new world' and will be explained by copious programme notes and catalogued with opus numbers.

He's probably hoping for a spot on BBC3's 'World Music' programme, so that the sonorous soulful sounds of the didgerido can take their rightful place alongside the warblings of African nose flutes and the clicking vocal rhythms of Kalahari bushmen. As a concession to cultural syncretism, these sounds will be rebranded as 'the classical music of the new world' and will be explained by copious programme notes and catalogued with opus numbers.

Then sold on amazon.com for £50 each CD, ...£5 for the full DVD :)

There has been a lot of Brit-bashing about West Africa lately. People should read the history books - better still, go to West Africa. It was the African kings and the Barbary Arabs that sold slaves to all and sundry – but no liberal bleeding heart likes to acknowledge this.

The West African states aren’t prone to draught like east Africa, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ivory Coast, Ghana etc are lush environments. There was little if any infrastructure before colonisation, and when we pulled out the countries were in fine form indeed. They weren’t abandoned. Using Sierra Leone as an example, having worked there for 6 months, the country’s administration had been an even mix of black and white senior figures for decades and when we pulled out in the 60s the country had roads, water, electricity and railways, and a stable functional government to run it all. They also had, in addition to cocoa, gold and diamonds, and three quarters of the word’s rutile market (titanium oxide, the main pigment in white paint). Sierra Leone should have been the success story of the entire developing world.

Why was it not? Because its president, Siaka Stevens, raped the economy for every penny he could, even ripping up the railway lines to sell the steel, every penny going into his own Swiss bank accounts. Charles Taylor did exactly the same to Liberia – managing to acquire $3billion in Swiss banks from a country with a GDP of $3-400million. He then funded the RUF rebels to go into Sierra Leone after its diamond mines which set off a bloodbath of a civil war.

What we did that was short-sighted in Africa was to set up stable national governments based on a democratic model which we had evolved over 2000 years and found to work when applied to our own established Christian codes of conduct. It worked for us, so we thought it would work for others.

Sadly, it doesn’t apply in Africa (or ther parts of the world) where the norm is a tribal feudal system with very different values. An African leader has two priorities – to his immediate family, and then to his tribe. Put him in charge of a national budget and it will be gone in days.

Why do I mention all this? Because there are people wanting us to apologise to the West African states, for ‘abandoning’ them and the mess they’re now in.

We continue to apologise to these countries, year in, year out, through hundreds of millions of pounds in aid which ends up, for the most part, being wasted and frittered by inept governments. And the do-gooders say we should give them more.

Perhaps we should also apologise for sending them aid money – it’s interfering after all.

I should warn you,timo and you LC, pedro1 is online and may be reading this now. :)

Where could he buy didgeridoo sheet music from, without going to Alf's Music Store in Alice Springs, I wonder? :help:

I would like to apologize profusely for we Americans imposing GWB upon the world. Though I personally would have emigrated to Canada sooner than vote for the Gauleiter of Galveston, that is no excuse.

I would like to apologize profusely for we Americans imposing GWB upon the world. Though I personally would have emigrated to Canada sooner than vote for the Gauleiter of Galveston, that is no excuse.

I presume by GWB, you mean this man

Dubya (http://www.oco-is-here.com/Picts/bush.jpg)

Take a look at this. http://amistad.mysticseaport.org/timeline/atlantic.slave.trade.html . take a look from 1807 onwards. Think you'll find that Britain went out of their way to stop the slave trade. If it was not for the pressure of our government at the time then perhaps many countries would have continued for longer. Britain could have banned slavery and then turned a blind eye to other countries still carrying it out but we didn't.

Lord C and Shoeshine,
Yes, Peter certainly has a career in 'world music', alongside Inuit Whalebone flautists, Hottentot click-language rappers, performers of Tuareg ululation, Mongolian throat warbles, Gabon Rainforest crooners and Tibetan thigh-bone trumpeters. He should appear at the WOMAD festival too. When one considers it, he has achieved a remarkable degree of artistic and cultural 'crossover', in the parlance of contemporary art.

I have nothing but respect for an elderly English pensioner who has mastered a musical instrument which hails from the Australian Pleistocene. Perhaps Peter could achieve maximum 'cultural crossover' by means of tasteful Didgeridoo interpretations of the popular classics of his youth, such as 'Wait till the Sun shines, Nelly'? 'Come into the Garden, Maud', or even a few Inkspots numbers? These are just suggestions made in good faith.

timo...........please don't get me laughing like that.....it hurts:thumbsup:

No Shoeshine, I was referring to one Geoffrey Wilkinson Blenkinsop. You don't think I would demean our beloved leader do you. Remember we have an FBI, and it doesn't do to upset them. We are bringing DEMOCRACY to the world whether they want it or deserve it, thanks to Dubya, and we'll blow you to kingdom come if you don't accept our kind offer.

No Shoeshine, I was referring to one Geoffrey Wilkinson Blenkinsop. You don't think I would demean our beloved leader do you. Remember we have an FBI, and it doesn't do to upset them. We are bringing DEMOCRACY to the world whether they want it or deserve it, thanks to Dubya, and we'll blow you to kingdom come if you don't accept our kind offer.

I know the Geoffery Wikinson Blenkinsop you mean, the one who pioneered a Rabbit Farm next to the Clampitt Holding, before Jed found "Black Gold".

I'd heard Jed made a living rabbit poaching before he went up in the world. :thumbsup:

Shoeshine,
Regarding Peter's possible new career in 'World Music', the possibilities seem endless. Perhaps he might also combine admirable levels of 'cultural crossover' with abject apologies on behalf of all white, British people for our inherited racial guilt to the descendants of the peoples our colonialist ancestors so cruelly wronged and expoited. For example, when performing his sonorous Didgeridoo rendition of 'Wait till the Sun shines, Nelly', he might crown his unusual, almost unnatural act with an apology on behalf of us all for the rapine, plunder and atrocities committed by early white settlers of the Australaise.

A man of Peter's obvious musical ability and cultural curiosity would soon master the ancient Indian Rudra Vena. I am certain that the sight and sound of a snuff-taking, elderly Sheffield pensioner playing the full version of 'Raga Yaman' in a loin cloth, would do much to heal any post-colonial resentment still harboured by the peoples of the sub-Continent, especialy the tribes of the former 'North West Frontier'. I am certain that his apology on behalf of us all would then be warmly received, particularly by the legendarily 'big hearted' Pathans and Wazirs.

Perhaps Peter might also combine musical virtuosity with diplomatic skill in helping to smooth Anglo-Irish relations too. I have no doubt whatsover that a man of his accomplished musicianship would soon master the ancient, Gaelic Bodhran drum and Uilleann Pipes. Dressed as a loveable Leprachaun, Peter might entertain an Irish Republican audience with renditions of some of the old, beloved songs that many a Gaelic woodkerne has jigged and capered to at a village crossroads dance. Perhaps 'Delaney's Donkey' and 'The Smell of the Bog' would prove wise choices. I can imagine even the hardest of Republican hearts melting at the sight and sound of a contrite, elderly Englishman dressed as a Leprachaun, rendering a Uilleann Pipes version of 'The Sash my Father Wore' in the spirit of cordial Anglo-Irish relations and ecumenical dialogue. Even the poteen-crazed hordes of the Falls Road would accept an apology on our behalf from Peter.

Step forward Peter, duty calls.

Uilleann Pipes version of 'The Sash my Father Wore' in the spirit of cordial Anglo-Irish relations and ecumenical dialogue.

Isn't that an Orange song? Certainly I've heard it used by Protestants at Irish sessions as a reply to a "rebel song" from the Green side of the room. Or was that the point?

Captain Swing,
It is not like you to ruin a good joke. Exit Timo, muttering 'Talk about throwing pearls to swine' etc...

Oops sorry - you must indeed feel like your contributions are wasted on some of us ...

You are pardoned, good Captain. My multi-layered irony foxed you, if you'll forgive the phrase.