[MOD EDIT : Original posts removed as not suitable material for this forum. The following thread drift then occured.....]

Also ... why should he be ashamed !? ... he shouldn't.

All women expect payment for sex (in one way or another) ... so paying for it upfront and in hard cash is the most decent and honest way to go about it ... yeah !?.

</controversial>

Originally posted by Jamie
Also ... why should he be ashamed !? ... he shouldn't.

All women expect payment for sex (in one way or another) ... so paying for it upfront and in hard cash is the most decent and honest way to go about it ... yeah !?.

</controversial>


t020 ducks, and runs for cover.......

Originally posted by Jamie
Also ... why should he be ashamed !? ... he shouldn't.

All women expect payment for sex (in one way or another) ... so paying for it upfront and in hard cash is the most decent and honest way to go about it ... yeah !?.

</controversial>


How insulting and degrading!!
So you're saying that women expect to be paid for sex- therefore you are stating in turn that women are merely objects? Perhaps this shows your complete and utter lack of knowledge of the female form. Get your facts straight before you post something so subjective and rude.

:mad:

ten pints might work too, but the cost would be about the same :)

Originally posted by Jamie
Also ... why should he be ashamed !? ... he shouldn't.

All women expect payment for sex (in one way or another) ... so paying for it upfront and in hard cash is the most decent and honest way to go about it ... yeah !?.


I think you need to read up some factual information on the subject. More likely than not they are victims of abuse and/or in financial despair and will go at any length to survive. Many are brainwashed/blackmailed/threatened by pimps (or brothels owners if you want to call it that).

Many cases there is a child involved and single mothers are threatened with the possibility of having their child being removed from them to be taken into care if they do not sort themselves out financially.

Pimps then ply them with hard drugs so that they are dependant on them to feed their habits to stop them escaping this vicious circle.

No female wants to be in that position but are forced into an ugly trade and definitely not by choice.

It is highly likely that most of the money handed over is funding organized crime.

Geezer
ten pints might work too, but the cost would be about the same
[/B]

1 date rape tablet probably cost the same too.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :loopy:

My disapointment probably won't see the light of day - I predict an early thread removal.

Originally posted by Jamie
Also ... why should he be ashamed !? ... he shouldn't.

All women expect payment for sex (in one way or another) ... so paying for it upfront and in hard cash is the most decent and honest way to go about it ... yeah !?.

</controversial>

I don't why you think this would be controversial. Remember, I know what you look like and can understand why you think paying for sex is the only way.:D

Originally posted by starchild
... therefore you are stating in turn that women are merely objects? ...

I think anyone who really knows me would realise that this is not actually the case starchild.

Originally posted by max
I don't why you think this would be controversial. Remember, I know what you look like and can understand why you think paying for sex is the only way.:D

Ummmmm ... thanks for your kind comments max :razz:

Originally posted by Jamie
Also ... why should he be ashamed !? ... he shouldn't.

All women expect payment for sex (in one way or another) ... so paying for it upfront and in hard cash is the most decent and honest way to go about it ... yeah !?.

</controversial>

What I said here ... is just 'one piece of the jigsaw' ... and does not represent my full and complete opinion on this topic ... it is just one aspect / angle ... OK ?

The '</controversial>' was intened to indicate that I am just presenting one (albeit controversial) view point on the topic.

I think some of you didn't quite get this ... I had hoped that those who know me and I consider friends would be savvy enough to pick up on this.

I know it's a very emotive topic ... yet I believe that there are elements of truth in what I said ... however ... I am unwilling to expand on this or explain myself further in a public arena.

I cannot stress enough how personally horrified I am at any kind of sexual violence to women (or to men) ... or people being in any kind of harmful f****d up situation in general.

Still ... I refuse to speak the truth of what I feel on this matter for fear of not being treated fairly and / or personal attack.

Jamie

</lessons_learned>

Originally posted by starchild
How insulting and degrading!!
So you're saying that women expect to be paid for sex- therefore you are stating in turn that women are merely objects? Perhaps this shows your complete and utter lack of knowledge of the female form. Get your facts straight before you post something so subjective and rude.

:mad:

I think that he was being ironic. Crass maybe, but still ironic.

Originally posted by John
I think you need to read up some factual information on the subject. More likely than not they are victims of abuse and/or in financial despair and will go at any length to survive. Many are brainwashed/blackmailed/threatened by pimps (or brothels owners if you want to call it that).
And these cases are truly tragic but you really can't generalise like that. There are plenty of prostitutes who do it out of choice. Just because you can't understand why anyone would, doesn't make it untrue!

Originally posted by John
Many cases there is a child involved and single mothers are threatened with the possibility of having their child being removed from them to be taken into care if they do not sort themselves out financially.
Are you saying single mums on Income Support, living in rented accommodation paid for by Housing Benefit, are forced into prostitution by the state under threat of having their kids taken away? I don't think so. There are other choices.

Originally posted by John
Pimps then ply them with hard drugs so that they are dependant on them to feed their habits to stop them escaping this vicious circle.
For some this is true and others not. Again, you generalise.

Originally posted by John
No female wants to be in that position but are forced into an ugly trade and definitely not by choice.
You are making this up now. No women?!?!

Originally posted by John
It is highly likely that most of the money handed over is funding organized crime.
Well, as it is illegal to pimp or run a brothel, and there must be some sort of organisation, then perhaps there is some truth in this. But don't kid yourself that if prostitution didn't exist then crime families would not longer be able to afford to import drugs or purchase swan-offs for bank jobs.

Personally, I don't see the attraction of sticking your wick where a thousand wicks have been before but let's not kid ourselves... there is a market for it, always has been and always will be. John, as far as I can see the only way to protect the women you talk about from the exploitation, drug pushers, psychopaths etc, is to legalise brothels.

Originally posted by Jamie
Also ... why should he be ashamed !? ... he shouldn't.

All women expect payment for sex (in one way or another)


Thing is Jamie,

You said 'all' women expect payment for sex- that is totally a sweeping statement, based on no facts whatsoever, and whether or not prostitutes choose that industry (or don't choose in some cases) that is irrelevant. So you're saying you would have to pay for sex from a member of the general public? Or more to the point, they would expect payment? Your experiences with people are not always consistent with others- i.e. just because you may choose to 'pay' for these acts it doesn't mean that women, or men, expect to be paid for it in general.

This isn't the first time you've implied that buying sex is the best option-

Originally posted by Jamie
I'm just saving up for a nice mail order bride ... probably be a *LOT* less painful than your typical English girlie (not to mention more poilte, curteous, sweet, sexy, cuter and less expensive in the long run).


Remember, Jamie, your own choices do not relate to others. Not everyone pays for sex.

I did say 'all' women ... and I should have really said 'most' or 'some'.

Anyway ... sweeping generalisations aside ...

I have way too much self-respect to pay for it and also (as Zamo puts it) ... "sticking my wick where a thousand wicks have been before" ... is extremely repulsive to me.

My perception (hence the gist of my original point) is that women (in general) in our society have a tendency to use sex as a bargaining chip ...

Men want sex more than women (who aren't really that bothered at all ... and are probably much happier shopping for shoes or handbags or something) ... so women use that fact to their best advantage ... and so they should ... it's only nature doing it's thing.

Just look at black widow spiders and the praying mantis ...

Originally posted by starchild
This isn't the first time you've implied that buying sex is the best option-

<insert some sarcastic comments from Jamie here>

Remember, Jamie, your own choices do not relate to others. Not everyone pays for sex.

Do you think I was being serious when I wrote that !!? :razz: :razz: :razz:

Zamo:

I have to agree with a lot of what you said in your response to John ... I have one question for you ... what is a "swan-off" !?

what about the lesbian student who sold her virginity recently?

She certainly wasn't forced into it, she chose to do it.

everyone expects 'paying' for most things they do.
Whether that be hard currency, respect, love, quid quo pro, enjoyment, whatever... Unless there are a group of women that have sex with men simply on request and with no further interaction then there is payment. The same equally applies to men.
The payment could of course simply be a good time...

Originally posted by Jamie
Zamo:

I have to agree with a lot of what you said in your response to John ... I have one question for you ... what is a "swan-off" !?
Ha!:thumbsup:

A swan-off is the same thing as a sawn-off when someone who can only type at 30wpm tries to type at 120wmp! ;)

Originally posted by Jamie
Men want sex more than women (who aren't really that bothered at all ... and are probably much happier shopping for shoes or handbags or something) ...

You're meeting the wrong women (or are basing your judgement on something else entirely). Most women actually want sex as much as men. It's an undeniable biological/psychological urge and it's only modern (post-victorian) society that preaches otherwise.

i think the gist of jamie's point was that it was a payment in kind, be it financial, emotional, or if you've done the dishes or not / not stayed out at the pub all night.

A very cynical way of looking at it, and as he's said, not entirely serious.

Originally posted by Zamo
Ha!:thumbsup:

A swan-off is the same thing as a sawn-off when someone who can only type at 30wpm tries to type at 120wmp! ;)

Glad we cleared that one up Zamo ... wouldn't want any forumers trying to pull of a bank job with a "swan-off" ... qwak qwak ... lol.

Originally posted by Agent Dan
You're meeting the wrong women (or are basing your judgement on something else entirely). Most women actually want sex as much as men. It's an undeniable biological/psychological urge and it's only modern (post-victorian) society that preaches otherwise.

Yeah of course women want sex too !! ... they're just better at holding back and playing power games with sex than we are (damn them ... lol).

I would never pay for sex (or sell it for that matter) no matter how desperate I might be.

Originally posted by Jamie
Yeah of course women want sex too !! ... they're just better at holding back and playing power games with sex than we are (damn them ... lol).

That's a very migosynistic viewpoint. You simply cannot make any generalisations on that scale about over half the population of the world, and I think if you broaden your experience, you'll find that that is simply untrue. I'm not saying that there aren't any 'players' out there, but they are by far the minority.

Originally posted by Agent Dan
That's a very migosynistic viewpoint. You simply cannot make any generalisations on that scale about over half the population of the world, and I think if you broaden your experience, you'll find that that is simply untrue. I'm not saying that there aren't any 'players' out there, but they are by far the minority.

I disagree ... I think that I have a very pragmatic viewpoint on most things and I try to see the underlying reality of things.

I don't hate women at all Dan (actually I am very fond of them ... and I'd like to know what gives you that idea that I hate them) ... I am simply not into self-delusion (in this matter).

Women (like men) ... are only creatures / organisms / animals ... and are generally ultimately out for themselves ... they generally only have self interest at heart (also like men) ... are you disputing this Dan !?

Human nature is not always loving and kind ... of course when Cupid is on the scene ... that is a whole new ball game.

I know this is not a pleasant revelation ... but if you look deep enough and broaden your own experience Dan ... you might realise that I actually have something here.

Seriously though ... I am going to bow out of this debate now.

I am open to further discussion ... just not in a public forum.

I will also say that my views (and indeed everyone's) are subject to change and evolution over a period of time.

</bitter_and_twisted> ... (joke)

love,
Jamie

Originally posted by Jamie
I disagree ... I think that I have a very pragmatic viewpoint on most things and I try to see the underlying reality of things.


Very probably, just not here.


I don't hate women at all Dan ... and I'd like to know what gives you that idea that I hate them ...

Erm... you claim they expect payment for sex, make sweeping generalisations about their habits (also very stereotypical, unoriginal ones), and claim that all women play power games with sex. That'll be why, then.


Women (like men) ... are only creatures / organisms / animals ... and are generally ultimately out for themselves ... they generally only have self interest at heart (also like men) ... are you disputing this Dan !?


I would dispute that most people are not so selfish as to think only of their own survival, in a non-threatening situation. I think it's more relevant that you would bring this opinion up in this thread, a debate about paying for sex.


I know this is not a pleasant revelation ... but if you look deep enough and broaden your own experience Dan ... you might realise that I actually have something here.


I would kindly ask you to refrain from making personal comments. I find it unlikely that my experiences are less broad than yours, if only by your comments in this thread.

:) Wasn't trying to create anything personal mate, just suprised by the original vehemence of your comments when directed at women... if not misoginystic, then perhaps bitter or frustrated?! Nothing to be ashamed of... :loopy:

Oh Jamie

Of course there are some women out there who use their bodies and sex to manipulate other people. The majority however do not do that

There are also some men who use their money or their superior position at work to manipulate other people. The majority do not do that either

Where you go wrong is not that you recognise that it can go on, but where you say ALL women use sex to get what they want - it shouldnt be ALL - and not to acknowledge that some men manipulate too

Dear AgentDan:

Please see my PM to you ... also:

In response to your recent comments on this thread:

a) My pragmatic point of view.
I do feel I have a pragmatic view point in this matter (however, this is not my only view point. I am simply exploring / debating this one perspective and playing ‘devils advocate’ to a degree).

b) Me hating women.
I concede I did make the following claims:
1) some women expect ‘payment’ for sex (I will clarify what I mean by payment in a while).
2) women do not want sex as much as men (even biologically, men have a vested interest in having more sex, women don’t).
3) some women have a tendency to play ‘power games’ with sex (I will also expand on this point in a while).
Those 3 points are simply my observations of ‘some’ aspects of human nature … again … it is partial and does not represent my full and complete perspective … also … non of these points would cause me to hate women !! … make me very cautious and untrusting to a degree … YES … hating them … NO WAY SIR !!
I am also of the opinion that women are the most loveliest of creatures to have ever walked this earth.

c) People (men and women) are only organisms and have self interest at heart.
Of course we do (have self interest at heart) it’s only natural … but it’s not the same as selfishness and being unkind or cruel.
My point is that we all have our own agendas and sense of what we want from life (which will vary person to person) and we will generally use what we have to fulfil our own agendas … some women will use sex as a leaver to achieve what they want (which may be gross: i.e. money … or subtle i.e. if we’re watching football instead of corrie … you’re not getting any mister).

d) Getting personal.
I apologise for the remark concerning our relative ‘levels of experience’. This was a tit-for-tat response to your own suggestion re: the relative widths of our experience / perspective. Of course it’s not important how one person measures up to another in any way, shape or form … what is important is that we’re both human beings and we’re on good terms Dan … as indeed we are.

Dear Belle:

I agree with everything you have said there … it was wrong of me to say ‘ALL’ women ...... (actually I retracted this earlier on in the thread).

Men and women can be just as bad (and as good) as each other in all walks of life … everything comes down to the individual.

For anything that I have said here that has upset you (or anyone else) … I am sorry … I do not like people to be upset on my account for any reason … and this is a very emotive subject matter and I do feel I may have been a little too blunt and free with my comments on this thread.

I can only ask that people are kind enough to consider that I am only debating / exploring one perspective and it is in no way the full picture of what I think / feel.

Thread restored.

Nomme

Further Clarification:

“Some women expect ‘payment’ for sex”.
I did not only mean money here (as ‘grim’ pointed out) this could be payment in kind, emotional stuff, do the dishes … or just about anything else (i.e. ‘strings attached’). In an ideal world sex would be a loving act between 2 people and more about giving (and loving and nurturing) than “what’s in it for me” … we live in a world where most people are more concerned with taking rather than giving.

“Some women have a tendency to play ‘power games’ with sex”.
This can manifest in gross or in more subtle ways. It is essentially about women using what they have (sex) to get what they want. Men generally cannot do this (women have a lot more ‘offers’ than men and are much more in demand) (but this is only my perception OK). I am not claiming all women do this … and some may do it a bit … others may be quite ruthless with it.

Although men may not be able to advance their own agendas using sex, they will use what they have to do so … so I am not saying that all men are good and all women are bad.

My original comment (that provoked so much fury) was a bit extreme / OTT. It was somewhat intended to provoke response … however, with hind-sight, I think it was a bit unwise. I also know quite a few of you personally and I wouldn’t want to be on bad terms or fight with anyone or have people think badly of me.

If an individual offers sex in return for payment to someone who is willing to pay for it, then what's the problem?

Jamie

Sorry mate but I can't agree with anything you've said on this topic and have to go with most other people that your views are mysoginistic and baseless.

I just can't believe that you actually stand by this load of tosh. If you were trying to alienate yourself from every female forum member then I think you've probably managed it.

Out of order mate. WELL out of order. :mad:

Originally posted by Pauly
Jamie

Sorry mate but I can't agree with anything you've said on this topic and have to go with most other people that your views are mysoginistic and baseless.

I am sorry you feel that you have to jump on that particular bandwagon Pauly ... you're entitled to your view point and I do not begrudge you for holding it.

I have already stated that what I have said does not represent a full and complete picture of my views.

Perhaps you would care to expand a little about what specifically you don't agree with !? ... giving me the opportunity to respond ... for example ... I said the following:

In an ideal world sex would be a loving act between 2 people and more about giving (and loving and nurturing) than “what’s in it for me”

Now as you said that you do not agree with anything I have said here ... I can only asume you disagree with this point too ... which puzzles me ... PLEASE CAN YOU CLARIFY THIS !!?

I just can't believe that you actually stand by this load of tosh. If you were trying to alienate yourself from every female forum member then I think you've probably managed it.

Out of order mate. WELL out of order. :mad:

There are elements of truth in what I've said and yes ... I stand by the truth as I see it (again ... it is not the whole and complete picture of the truth).

People are very welcome to think what they like about me ... I will not take it personally.

I do know for a fact that I have not alieneted myself from every female member of this forum ... I have discussed this thread with them ... and most do not share your views Pauly.

I do not consider myself to be 'out of order' at all here ... I think I have been v sensetive ... in that I have not made any personal attacks ... there have however been personal attacks aimed at me ... and to be honest mate ... I have stopped caring what some people think about me (which is a good thing).

One good thing that has come out of this thread for me ... is that I know who my friends are !!! ...

Can people please refrain from making personal attacks on me and just discuss the points in a civilised manner ... please !!?

You have not alienated me Jamie:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Ying
You have not alienated me Jamie:thumbsup:

Or me. People on here should stop treating others like murderers just because they disagree or take offence at opinions expressed. This is a forum FFS, expect to read opinions you don't like - thats the nature of the beast. This doesn't mean that you should talk to people you disagree with like **** or wage long running campaigns against them or alienate them in any way.

I don't have the time or energy to go through this thread again and make quotes and comments on every part that I found objectionable because it would take too long and I don't fancy being wound up again by re-reading your cynical views on this subject.

I can only assume that you've not met any women who behave in the way you would deem appropriate and in that case you need to keep looking. I've had a few girlfriends over the past few years and some I didn't get on too well with, others I got on great with and we had a good laugh while together and not one of them used sex as a bargaining tool as you presume most do.

I'm sure there are women (and men) like this about but I can usually tell if someone is trying to use me and they get dropped off as soon as it becomes apparent. At each breakup time,whether it was me or them that ended things, I didn't come to the conclusion that all women are the same, which is the impression you give.

In an ideal world sex would be a loving act between 2 people and more about giving (and loving and nurturing) than “what’s in it for me”

Believe it or not Jamie this is how it is for alot of couples and I think you're wrong to believe that it isn't, based on your own limited experience.

Call this a personal attack if you wish but as you can tell I'm not a fan of people who behave like you have in this thread. There are some things that you should keep to yourself.

Originally posted by Sam Miguel
If an individual offers sex in return for payment to someone who is willing to pay for it, then what's the problem?
Got to agree with that, subject to usual provisos like not doing it on the Town Hall steps at 2pm on Saturday afternoon :).

If you want to pay me to wash your car, what has that got to do with anyone else? Unless you ask me to do it on the Town Hall steps on a Saturday :P

Originally posted by Sam Miguel
If an individual offers sex in return for payment to someone who is willing to pay for it, then what's the problem?

Originally posted by Tony
Got to agree with that, subject to usual provisos like not doing it on the Town Hall steps at 2pm on Saturday afternoon :).


...and if that individual is 15 (say) - do you still not have a problem?

Nomme

Why do you ask Nomme.... has fletch stressed an interest in women of the night ;)

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Why do you ask Nomme.... has fletch stressed an interest in women of the night ;)

Rather than avoiding the question try answering it. I am merely trying to point out that the issue is not so clear cut as Sam and Tony have claimed.

Nomme

I didn't stress an opinion either way to be honest.

So in actual fact I'm not avoiding anything.. if you have a problem... take it up with those of the opinion stressed :loopy:

What I meant by the analogy of the "Town Hall steps" was that providing it is within the normal laws of decency I have no problem with prostitution. As you know, protitution isn't illegal in itself, but some of the activities around it are, and quite rightly so.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
So in actual fact I'm not avoiding anything.. if you have a problem... take it up with those of the opinion stressed :loopy:

I was trying to when you butted in with your vacuous comment.

Nomme

Ooooooooooooooooh listen to him.
You got up on the wrong side of bed this morning Nomme?

Or did you have a sense of humour transplant... by you know... having it removed!:rolleyes:

Originally posted by nomme
Rather than avoiding the question try answering it. I am merely trying to point out that the issue is not so clear cut as Sam and Tony have claimed.

Nomme
Nomme, this debate is not about the age of consent, which is really a whole topic in itself.

Personally, I think that some of what Jamie said was true. Sex is indeed a powerful bargaining tool and one that men and women both use. IMHO, it's not always bad or distasteful. Pauly, I'm sorry none of your girlfriends have ever teased you and made to jump through hoops to get what you want! It's fun and everyone likes a bargain don't they? ;)

Where I would disagree with Jamie is here...
Originally posted by Jamie
In an ideal world sex would be a loving act between 2 people and more about giving (and loving and nurturing) than “what’s in it for me”
It depends on whose ideal world we are talking about! Again, it's all about opinion and taste.

Originally posted by Zamo
Nomme, this debate is not about the age of consent, which is really a whole topic in itself.

Personally, I think that some of what Jamie said was true. Sex is indeed a powerful bargaining tool and one that men and women both use. IMHO, it's not always bad or distasteful. Pauly, I'm sorry none of your girlfriends have ever teased you and made to jump through hoops to get what you want! It's fun and everyone likes a bargain don't they? ;)

Where I would disagree with Jamie is here...

Originally posted by Jamie
In an ideal world sex would be a loving act between 2 people and more about giving (and loving and nurturing) than “what’s in it for me”

It depends on whose ideal world we are talking about! Again, it's all about opinion and taste.

LOL ... and I thought that was my least risque statement Zamo !!

I think you make some good points there ... it is all about opinion and taste ... and we all have different opinions which change as we go through life ... that doesn't mean some of us are 'right' and others are 'wrong' ... we just see things differently (which is really great).

Your post does make me think though ... mostly about jumping through hoops ... woo hoo !!

:thumbsup:

ps. Thanks for not branding me a misogynist.

Originally posted by Tony
As you know, protitution isn't illegal in itself,
Technically it is, but there are ways around it.

Originally posted by Sidla
Technically it is, but there are ways around it.

You mean like marriage !?

No, like giving a girl a 'gift' after she's just slept with you.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Ooooooooooooooooh listen to him.
You got up on the wrong side of bed this morning Nomme?

No, but I did spend a lot of time yesterday sorting out this thread in order that a proper 'adult'' discussion could continue.
I was raising the serious issue of child prostitution. Sorry, but I don't make jokes about that kind of topic.

Originally posted by DaBouncer

Or did you have a sense of humour transplant... by you know... having it removed!:rolleyes:
I must have. Explain why it was funny. I don't get it.
On second thoughts - don't bother, lets try to keep on topic eh?

Nomme

Originally posted by Tony
As you know, prostitution isn't illegal in itself, but some of the activities around it are, and quite rightly so.

Actually, I didn't know that. Am I right in thinking then that prostitution is not illegal but soliciting is?

Nomme

Originally posted by nomme
No, but I did spend a lot of time yesterday sorting out this thread in order that a proper 'adult'' discussion could continue.
Which could have easily have been done by locking the thread and editing the offending posts. However that's another debate.. one which I think has finished.

Originally posted by nomme
I was raising the serious issue of child prostitution. Sorry, but I don't make jokes about that kind of topic.
Well raise the issue in a thread created for the purpose... this thread wasn't about such a debate. And i wasn't making any joke or reference to child prostitution. If you had phrased your sordid 'question' correctly (i.e. "...and if that prostitute is 15 (say) - do you still not have a problem? ")
Rather than saying individual... because your 'question' could have been taken either way (i.e. The punter was say 15 - hence my reference).

Originally posted by nomme
Explain why it was funny. I don't get it.
On second thoughts - don't bother, lets try to keep on topic eh?

Nomme
You changed the topic and it was just a cheap shot to poke a little fun not for you to get bent out of shape FFS. This topic seems to have got very heated over one or two posts and I wanted to add a little light heartedness in to it.

Now feel free to go back on topic Nomme!

DB

Originally posted by Sidla
No, like giving a girl a 'gift' after she's just slept with you.

Prostitution itself is not illegal, but soliciting, pimping and kerb-crawling are, making it effectively against the law.

Child prostution *is* illegal (even just if you just include the unlawful sex with a minor (under 16) law). Not sure of the specific strictures governing that.

Originally posted by Ying
You have not alienated me Jamie:thumbsup:


Or me :)

Originally posted by Lindseyw
Or me :)
Or even me *flutters eyelids at Jamie*:D

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Or even me *flutters eyelids at Jamie*:D

DB you look SO cute when you do that xxx

Originally posted by DaBouncer

Well raise the issue in a thread created for the purpose... this thread wasn't about such a debate.


Sorry, but what thread are you reading? I read these 2 posts:


Originally posted by Sam Miguel
If an individual offers sex in return for payment to someone who is willing to pay for it, then what's the problem?

Originally posted by Tony
Got to agree with that, subject to usual provisos like not doing it on the Town Hall steps at 2pm on Saturday afternoon :).


and then I said this:

"...and if that individual is 15 (say) - do you still not have a problem?"

to raise the point that even if the people concerned are consenting there can still be an issue.

Originally posted by DaBouncer

And i wasn't making any joke or reference to child prostitution.
If you had phrased your sordid 'question' correctly (i.e. "...and if that prostitute is 15 (say) - do you still not have a problem? ")
Rather than saying individual... because your 'question' could have been taken either way (i.e. The punter was say 15 - hence my reference).


My question was phrased correctly. You however seem to have a problem reading. My use of 'individual' was in reference to Sam's reference to 'individual'.
I've hightlighted them above to make it easy for you. So, no, it couldn't be taken either way.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
You changed the topic

No I didn't. I challenged Sam and Tony to clarify their statements.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
...and it was just a cheap shot to poke a little fun not for you to get bent out of shape FFS.
This topic seems to have got very heated over one or two posts and I wanted to add a little light heartedness in to it.
[/B]

Well it may have been well intentioned but it was perhaps misplaced and ill timed.

Nomme

Not wishing to throw a spanner in the works (but I will anyway...) but I've observed a few single ladies in my time as a Bar Wallower to chat up blokes in the pub, buy them several beers and then spend the night with them and dump them the next day. Is this a form of prostitution or the sign of a liberated woman who knows what she wants and goes out to get it - no strings attached?

Originally posted by nomme
Well it may have been well intentioned but it was perhaps misplaced and ill timed.

Nomme
Well I cannot argue the other points because having checked I suppose you are correct... had I read it correctly then it couldn't be taken either way.

As far as misplaced and ill timed... misplaced possibly... ill timed never. Comedy has no ill timing... light heartedness also.

You got on your high horse without realising what my post was actually about.
Maybe we're both at fault in some parts!

Originally posted by Classic Rock
Not wishing to throw a spanner in the works (but I will anyway...) but I've observed a few single ladies in my time as a Bar Wallower to chat up blokes in the pub, buy them several beers and then spend the night with them and dump them the next day. Is this a form of prostitution or the sign of a liberated woman who knows what she wants and goes out to get it - no strings attached?

When you say 'buy them beers' ... do you mean the girls are buying beers for the guys or is it the other way round !?

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Prostitution itself is not illegal, but soliciting, pimping and kerb-crawling are, making it effectively against the law.

Child prostution *is* illegal (even just if you just include the unlawful sex with a minor (under 16) law). Not sure of the specific strictures governing that.
What's the definition of prostitution then? I thought prostitution and soliciting were the same thing? Or am I just being naïve?

All the same, cheers for clearing that up.

Originally posted by Jamie
When you say 'buy them beers' ... do you mean the girls are buying beers for the guys or is it the other way round !?

The ladies buy the beers, which tempts the men into their web....

Originally posted by Classic Rock
The ladies buy the beers, which tempts the men into their web....

:o

Originally posted by Sidla
What's the definition of prostitution then? I thought prostitution and soliciting were the same thing? Or am I just being naïve?

All the same, cheers for clearing that up.

soliciting is offering sex for money.

prostitution is having sex for money

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
prostitution is having sex for money
... or in the case of male patrons of the Classic Rock Bar - sex for beer! :D

Just in case anyone has any detailed enquiries about how the law relates to sex

http://www.sw5.info/soa2003.htm

seems to be good info.

Originally posted by Tony
As you know, protitution isn't illegal in itself

Originally posted by Sidla
Technically it is, but there are ways around it.

Originally posted by Jamie
You mean like marriage !?

Would you like to explain this reply, because, to me, it does like you have a very sad view of marriage.

Yeah, I was thinking that too fuzz. It sounds like Jamie's trying to say that you can't have sex outside marriage unless you pay for it.

Originally posted by Zamo
... or in the case of male patrons of the Classic Rock Bar - sex for beer! :D

LOL. Not only in the CRB. It happens in many different pubs nationwide, but because a woman takes the lead and encourages a man with a few pints, it isn't recognised to be a form of prostitution. Or is it?

I used to know a woman until last year who was forever buying a man pints, cigarettes, etc in the hope that he'd take her to bed. Alas he didn't - or says he didn't - but this form of payment, voluntary albeit, is still a form of payment in advance of a sexual act. It is well known to be the other way round, where men pay for drinks for women in the hope of receiving something back - well known as it has become part of social interaction and men air their dissatisfaction if they've spent the money and the woman has turned them down. Its is socially acceptable for this to happen and to be discussed.

For a woman to do it to a man, it isn't generally socially discussed, even though it happens. Nevertheless, isn't buying someone a drink of the opposite sex in the hope that it'll woo them into a bedroom a form of prostitution?

Originally posted by Classic Rock
For a woman to do it to a man, it isn't generally socially discussed, even though it happens. Nevertheless, isn't buying someone a drink of the opposite sex in the hope that it'll woo them into a bedroom a form of prostitution?
Not that I've ever done it myself but...

I think the buying of drinks is as much to do the effect alcohol has on ones inhabitions!

Originally posted by Classic Rock
Nevertheless, isn't buying someone a drink of the opposite sex in the hope that it'll woo them into a bedroom a form of prostitution?

What if the person you are buying a drink for is your girlfriend? I buy her drinks with no expectation of her returning the favour in the bedroom.. I just think it's old fashioned courtesy and I don't mind it at all.

I buy drinks for my fiancee, and she buys drinks for me... so which of us is the prostitute and which is the punter?

Originally posted by Patchy
I buy drinks for my fiancee, and she buys drinks for me... so which of us is the prostitute and which is the punter?

Neither. The wooing has been done. You are in a relationship. I'm on about the initial catching.

I suppose that the if the drinks are being bought with the expressed intention to return the favour in a sexual way then it could be considered prostitution, as could lavishing very expensive gifts on somebody you are not 'in a relationship' with...

If the drinks are bought anyway, and one thing leads to another, then the initial intent to repay the favour directly with sexual action (good phrase that!) then it wouldn't be considered prostitution or soliciting, as the intent was only to buy the drinks! phew, I think that makes sense...

Incidentally, for those that are unaware, Jamie and I were having a great debate, and neither of us took it personally. The mods are doing a fine job or controlling the site, and my thanks go out to Nomme for restoring the thread I was enjoying commenting on so promptly. Cheers! :D

Originally posted by fuzzy
Would you like to explain this reply, because, to me, it does like you have a very sad view of marriage.

Dear Fuzzy,

That comment was wholey intended as (ironic) humor ... in a light hearted and playful way !!

A lot of what I say is genuinely intended in a fun playful and jokey manner ... at least that's my intention.

Hope I haven't caused more offence.

Originally posted by Sidla
Yeah, I was thinking that too fuzz. It sounds like Jamie's trying to say that you can't have sex outside marriage unless you pay for it.

Dear Sidla,

Marriage is OK.

Not being married is OK.

Living in 'sin' is OK.

I am not married myself ... if I met someone I wanted to commit the rest of my life to and get married ... I would probably be a very happy man.

Can I just clarify once again that when I say 'paying for sex' I do not just mean hard cash !!

<my_opinion>

'Paying for sex' is tied in with the thing about people using sex as leverage ... which may happen to varying degrees of intensity ... and in most cases will manifest itself in more subtle ways ... and people may not actually be conciously aware that they are doing it.

</my_opinion>

Originally posted by Jamie
A lot of what I say is genuinely intended in a fun playful and jokey manner ... at least that's my intention.


If that is the case it would maybe be wise to sprinkle some 'smilies' in your posts in order to signal that intention. Tongue in cheek etc. can be difficult to spot at times with the written word.

Just a suggestion.

Nomme

Originally posted by nomme
If that is the case it would maybe be wise to sprinkle some 'smilies' in your posts in order to signal that intention. Tongue in cheek etc. can be difficult to spot at times with the written word.

Just a suggestion.

Nomme

Agreed ... thanks Nomme :thumbsup:

*appologises to everyone for having a sense of humour*

I shall have it removed at once !!!

please note: this post contains humor.

Originally posted by Classic Rock
LOL. Not only in the CRB. It happens in many different pubs nationwide, but because a woman takes the lead and encourages a man with a few pints, it isn't recognised to be a form of prostitution. Or is it?

I don't think that is prostitution ... there is no guarantee and it is more like 'living in hope'.

Originally posted by Classic Rock
I used to know a woman until last year who was forever buying a man pints, cigarettes, etc in the hope that he'd take her to bed. Alas he didn't - or says he didn't - but this form of payment, voluntary albeit, is still a form of payment in advance of a sexual act.

I don't think this can be classed as payment for sex ... it is more like giving something in the hope that the other person will give you what you want in return ... with no guarantee or agreement of what will occur.

Originally posted by Classic Rock
It is well known to be the other way round, where men pay for drinks for women in the hope of receiving something back - well known as it has become part of social interaction and men air their dissatisfaction if they've spent the money and the woman has turned them down. Its is socially acceptable for this to happen and to be discussed.

For a woman to do it to a man, it isn't generally socially discussed, even though it happens. Nevertheless, isn't buying someone a drink of the opposite sex in the hope that it'll woo them into a bedroom a form of prostitution?

I don't think it matters which way round it works (man buying woman OR woman buying man) ... gender does not at all affect the ethics / morality of situation.

However ... we do live in a society where public opinion says that it is OK for women to do a b and c ... but not x y and z ... and we have other 'rules' that say it is OK for men to do a b and c ... but not x y and z.

e.g. A woman buying a guy drinks in hope of sex is a 'slapper' ... but a man doing it is a 'jack the lad'.

Society holds different standards of acceptable behaviour for men and women.

I've just got back from Amsterdam for a few days (it was a Uni-organised trip, I study Dutch and the trip was designed to help with this), and I happened to visit the Red Light District three times during that trip.


The first time was late on Saturday night (from 12am to about 2am, then got lost and it took a third hour to get back to the hotel!) and I was with one mate who's also 19, same as myself. That was just for a look-around.

The second time was at 7am the following (Sunday) morning (yeah, I dunno how I managed to wake up that early after the previous night!) and it was on my own - it was to go and watch the Malaysian Grand Prix and the only place I knew of that showed it was in the RLD.

The third time was on the same day (Sunday) and it was with two other guys and five girls - all of us were between 19 and 24. This was also just for another look-around.


The system there is that prostitution is legal. However it's not allowed on the streets themselves - instead, the prostitutes all pose behind glass doors that are lined with red lights (hence the name of the area) and you choose one, walk in, pay your cash and do the dirty. There seemed to be something around for every taste. There were also several live sex shows on offer (although most were massive rip-offs) and there were porn shops galore. Much of this happened 24/7 - prostitutes were still soliciting at any time of the day that I was there and many places were still open.


Impressions? The place is a bit overrated I reckon. The prostitutes are mostly fine, and every one of them has to apparently be checked every three months for STDs. Also, they're not allowed to expose indecently in view of the street - they all wear underwear, bikinis, thongs etc., you only see more if you're prepared to pay for it. The area isn't too big, and most of the people wandering around are English men - the prostitutes and the bouncers outside the sex shows always advertise in English and there's very little Dutchness about. Also, be prepared to put up with people offering you cocaine and ecstacy every sixty seconds (no exagguration). The biggest problem I have with it though is that it just wasn't arousing. At all. I didn't go and see any of the sex shows at all, and just the thought of paying for one of the girls behind the glass doors puts me off sex completely even though most of them were stunning. Maybe if I'd actually spent some money in the RLD in some way then I'd have enjoyed the place more, but pretty much everyone I went with just didn't think the place was that great. We much prefered spending our time in the coffee shops, getting high :).

Originally posted by Zamo
Pauly, I'm sorry none of your girlfriends have ever teased you and made to jump through hoops to get what you want!

I don't do head games and manipulation thanks. Anyone who tries that with me gets dropped. What's wrong with just being honest and genuine instead of playing games and trying to mess with someone's head to get them to do what you want? :loopy:

Is this really how some people behave in relationships? If so then I think it's a really sad state of affairs...IMO.

Originally posted by Pauly
I don't do head games and manipulation thanks. Anyone who tries that with me gets dropped. What's wrong with just being honest and genuine instead of playing games and trying to mess with someone's head to get them to do what you want? :loopy:

Is this really how some people behave in relationships? If so then I think it's a really sad state of affairs...IMO.
Nothing wrong with that at all Pauly. As I've tried to say all along in this thread - each to their own.