We are seeing the average Greek rejecting the austerity measures, as for them it is absolutely certain to mean a reduction in living standards, however for many they will pay the ultimate price and are likely to lose their homes, plus everything they have worked for in life.

The political class (plus many average brits) say we are all in this together and as the Greeks have been living beyond their means, they should suffer from whatever fallout comes from austerity.

Is that fair for the average Greek, who went about his everyday life, earning a living, when the people who were the the root cause of the problems (the political class) seem to be getting away scot free. These people (the political class) believe that the average Greek should take the pain squarely on the chin, whilst they continue their cosy life, while their fellow countryman have his/her life destroyed.

If you were a Greek, or come the time when we face austerity, will you welcome these packages of massive cuts?

Or will it be a case of - "yes, i fully support the austerity measures, provided my own family are not threatened by the consequences)

or will you...

Happily lose your home leaving your family destitute?

We are seeing the average Greek rejecting the austerity measures, as for them it is absolutely certain to mean a reduction in living standards, however for many they will pay the ultimate price and are likely to lose their homes, plus everything they have worked for in life.

The political class (plus many average brits) say we are all in this together and as the Greeks have been living beyond their means, they should suffer from whatever fallout comes from austerity.

Is that fair for the average Greek, who went about his everyday life, earning a living, when the people who were the the root cause of the problems (the political class) seem to be getting away scot free. These people (the political class) believe that the average Greek should take the pain squarely on the chin, whilst they continue their cosy life, while their fellow countryman have his/her life destroyed.

If you were a Greek, or come the time when we face austerity, will you welcome these packages of massive cuts?

Or will it be a case of - "yes, i fully support the austerity measures, provided my own family are not threatened by the consequences)

or will you...

Happily lose your home leaving your family destitute?

I would tolerate them and change my life accordingly.

I would tolerate them and change my life accordingly.




Even if you lost your home?

Even if you lost your home?

Why would I lose my home?

We are seeing the average Greek rejecting the austerity measures, as for them it is absolutely certain to mean a reduction in living standards, however for many they will pay the ultimate price and are likely to lose their homes, plus everything they have worked for in life.

The political class (plus many average brits) say we are all in this together and as the Greeks have been living beyond their means, they should suffer from whatever fallout comes from austerity.

Is that fair for the average Greek, who went about his everyday life, earning a living, when the people who were the the root cause of the problems (the political class) seem to be getting away scot free. These people (the political class) believe that the average Greek should take the pain squarely on the chin, whilst they continue their cosy life, while their fellow countryman have his/her life destroyed.

If you were a Greek, or come the time when we face austerity, will you welcome these packages of massive cuts?

Or will it be a case of - "yes, i fully support the austerity measures, provided my own family are not threatened by the consequences)

or will you...

Happily lose your home leaving your family destitute?

Whichever way you look at it, they are going to lose out.

Why would I lose my home?

Ah the poor innocent lamb....bless.

Why would I lose my home?



Why would you lose your home?

Well if your outgoings (mortgage, bills etc..) come to say £1400 which these days is not far out, and you had a job that paid £1600 a month after tax.

If because of the austerity, you had to take a pay cut to £800 a month, or you lost your job and benefits were £200 a month (benefit paymenst could be cut), yet you had to find £1400 a month, then you would quicky go into debt.

You would then lose your home

Why would you lose your home?

Well if your outgoings (mortgage, bills etc..) come to say £1400 which these days is not far out, and you had a job that paid £1600 a month after tax.

If because of the austerity, you had to take a pay cut to £800 a month, or you lost your job and benefits were £200 a month (benefit paymenst could be cut), yet you had to find £1400 a month, then you would quicky go into debt.

You would then lose your home

I would change my life and continue to live within my means, if I have less money coming in I would spend less money. Isn’t that obvious.

Austerity begins at home (or is that charity).

It's surprising what you can do without when you have to. We've had to make some serious changes in our lifestyle and for now just about get by. If we were asked to cut back further we'd be screwed.

I don't know.

If the way forward could be shown to be the right way we would do what was needed but, who to believe??

The dispossessed are never a happy breed and no i would fight it tooth and nail as the Greek referendum is about to reveal hence the eurodictators of wealth distribution are crapping it.

I would agree to an equivalent lifestylye of those imposing the austerity whether that be them forsaking their wealth to achieve parity with me or me being elevated to their status or even applying a pecking order where the rich are the first to implement austerity followed by the poor.

If you were a Greek, or come the time when we face austerity, will you welcome these packages of massive cuts?I guess it would depend on whether I was a (relatively) young worker paying my way into the system, or a retiree on full pay aged 51 :twisted:

Now, which sort outnumbers the other in Greece?

I think the Greeks are perfectly entitled to retire at 55 and then enjoy lazy afternoons drinking espresso (or something stronger) in the sun while we work until we drop to subsidise them. :rolleyes:

It doesnt go down well when you are being told to lose the community swimming baths by the guy with the heated private pool in his garden.

It doesnt go down well when you are being told to lose the community swimming baths by the guy with the heated private pool in his garden.

It would be a struggle, but I think I might just be able to live without community swimming baths if it came down to a choice between swimming and food.

I think the Greeks are perfectly entitled to retire at 55 and then enjoy lazy afternoons drinking espresso (or something stronger) in the sun while we work until we drop to subsidise them. :rolleyes:

That usually only applies to their public sector workers though. ;) The Greek public sector has been reported as being one of the most inefficient, yet because of the 'jobs for life' and 'early retirement' packages, it is the most sought after employer in Greece.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9526090.stm

I'd support austerity measures as long as they were proportionate and fair. Take a bit more off the top and the rest of us would only have to suffer a little.

It doesnt go down well when you are being told to lose the community swimming baths by the guy with the heated private pool in his garden.

I know where you're coming from on this. It's not easy to accept changes when these requests are coming from someone whose circumstances barely alter.

It would be a struggle, but I think I might just be able to live without community swimming baths if it came down to a choice between swimming and food.

OK Lets try that again.

It doesnt go down well when the guy who owns the bakery tells you to live on pie crusts.

The point being it is those who are unaffected by the measures who wish to impose them with no effect whatsoever on their own lifestyles.

Aat the pie crusts and drink the baths in the certain knowledge that those who require you to do it and have arguably caused the situation will be completely unaffected even though we are all in it together.

OK Lets try that again.

It doesnt go down well when the guy who owns the bakery tells you to live on pie crusts.

The point being it is those who are unaffected by the measures who wish to impose them with no effect whatsoever on their own lifestyles.

Aat the pie crusts and drink the baths in the certain knowledge that those who require you to do it and have arguably caused the situation will be completely unaffected even though we are all in it together.

Don't you think the Greek people have had a hand in their problems..?

None whatsoever - they have been guided by their peers and government pretty much as we have.

Aside of which the austerity seems to be selective - we have always found the dosh for the odd NATO excercise when it suits so now that little caper is over perhaps a bailout is not such a big deal. Perhaps its a terminology thing - we couldnt afford a Libyan bailout now could we so lets call it a NATO exercise.

None whatsoever - they have been guided by their peers and government pretty much as we have.

Aside of which the austerity seems to be selective - we have always found the dosh for the odd NATO excercise when it suits so now that little caper is ove perhaps a bailout is not such a big deal or perhaps its a terminology thing - we couldnt afford a Libyan Bbailout now could we so lets call it a NATO exercise.

You'll have to explain your second paragraph...I don't understand it..

None whatsoever - they have been guided by their peers and government pretty much as we have.

I do think that some of us have to take responsibility for our finances. I feel real sympathy for anyone who has lost their job, or has to live long term on a very low income. However, there are people who get themselves into serious financial difficulties by spending more than they can realistically afford.

Whilst some people really try (and manage) to live within their incomes, others rack up ridiculous amounts of credit for non-essentials. People who say they can't afford their rent/mortgage or heating bills, yet have a car that guzzles fuel, or brand new furniture and other luxuries on high interest payment plans. I've had to discuss rent arrears with tenants and sometimes there have been genuine difficulties that with a bit of help can be sorted out. But sometimes people's spending priorities are just not sensible.

That usually only applies to their public sector workers though. ;)

True but the argument remains the same ……… one currency should mean a common set of rules to fund it.

While Greek citizens are hoppin’ mad at the increase in their retirement eligibility, they currently have one of the lowest retirement age requirements in the EU. That fact is not lost on Germany, which faces the prospect of having to lead a bailout of Greece. As reported in the UK’s Guardian, an editorial in the widely read German newspaper, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Germany put the retirement-age issue front and center in the EU financial crisis:

“The Greeks go onto the streets to protest against the increase of the pension age from 61 to 63…Does that mean that the Germans should in the future extend the working age from 67 to 69, so that the Greeks can enjoy their retirement?”

In Spain, labor unions are not surprisingly leading the protests against the government’s recent proposal to raise Spain’s retirement age from 65 to 67 .

And a new study put out by PricewaterhouseCoopers says the United Kingdom’s plan to increase its public retirement age from 65 to 68 by 2046 doesn’t go far enough; the consulting firm recommends raising the retirement age to 70 by 2046 to help put a dent in the U.K’s budget deficit.

:o:o:o:o

Read more: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/retirement-planning/blog/retirement-beat/greece-debt-crisis-puts-focus-on-retirement-age/396/#ixzz1cY1BQqBb

That usually only applies to their public sector workers though. ;)

I'm not so sure about that..

"ATHENS — Vasia Veremi may be only 28, but as a hairdresser in Athens, she is keenly aware that, under a current law that treats her job as hazardous to her health, she has the right to retire with a full pension at age 50."

FRom here...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/business/global/12pension.html

And that pension is abouit 95% of her salary...not surprised Greece is in a mess.

All in all then there's not much that could be described as common in this market aside from the mess it's in.

Only the black market can save us, these national currencies are not fair 'mediums of exchange'.

True but the argument remains the same ……… one currency should mean a common set of rules to fund it.



:o:o:o:o

Read more: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/retirement-planning/blog/retirement-beat/greece-debt-crisis-puts-focus-on-retirement-age/396/#ixzz1cY1BQqBb

72 I could be looking at.

I opted out of the pension ponzi.

We've a deck of cards, with the gold ones stacked at the top, paper ones in the middle and thin air promises at the bottom.

The vacuum can't keep gravity artificially low for ever, and that deck of cards will not stand unless it's turned upside down.

The Greeks are a nation of spoilt petulant children. What they call brutal austerity measures we call normal.

They won't be retiring at any age if they leave the Euro because they won't be living past 50.

The Greeks are a nation of spoilt petulant children. What they call brutal austerity measures we call normal.

They won't be retiring at any age if they leave the Euro because they won't be living past 50.

Plus side, we get cheap sun filled holidays back.

I think if the Greeks do vote against austerity measures the rest of Europe has every right to stop giving them billions in bailout money. I'm not sure the Germans, who are pumping in the most, will fancy giving all their hard earned to the bubbles only for them to turn round and say give me more I've spent it already. And we don't want the germans getting restless. ;)

I think if the Greeks do vote against austerity measures the rest of Europe has every right to stop giving them billions in bailout money.All well and good, but what of the Continental banks' exposure to the corresponding full default?

It's all a question of who is most exposed: commercial banks, or NGOs (IMF and the like)?

If mostly NGOs, then fine (€ will likely endure) and that'll teach them to meddle (:D)

If mostly commercial banks, then that's when it'll all come apart and Italy will be next. When Italy goes, well...that's when we find out where and how WWIII kicks off, or when we for one all get to welcome our east asian overlords.

I think somebody needs to go. Not some investment bank nobody has heard of, but a big known bank or, sadly for Greece Italy et al, a country." We've run out of money, gimme more". So us, the tax payer all over Europe sticks there collective hands in our pockets and pay more. "sorry we've spent it on kebabs, stupidly high pensions and a very low retirement age " and we give them some more. I know alot of Greeks will suffer, but really, tough. I don't want the austerity measures over here but we've got them and got to make do. And as the Greeks are relying on my money and my hardships and they don't want hardships of their own I'd like my money back.

And as the Greeks are relying on my money and my hardshipsNot really.

We're not in the €, and our own contribution to sorting out this mess is pretty minimal (not to say insignificant), compared to those of the € club members (Germany and France first and foremost).

The Greece issue is not a big deal for the UK, from a/your/the Gvt's cash point of view.

But its implications (if Greece defaults) are potentially a huge deal for the UK, if the EU comes apart as a result, since the EU (mostly the € zone therein) is still our largest commercial partner, by very far.

We are seeing the average Greek rejecting the austerity measures, as for them it is absolutely certain to mean a reduction in living standards, however for many they will pay the ultimate price and are likely to lose their homes, plus everything they have worked for in life.

The political class (plus many average brits) say we are all in this together and as the Greeks have been living beyond their means, they should suffer from whatever fallout comes from austerity.

Is that fair for the average Greek, who went about his everyday life, earning a living, when the people who were the the root cause of the problems (the political class) seem to be getting away scot free. These people (the political class) believe that the average Greek should take the pain squarely on the chin, whilst they continue their cosy life, while their fellow countryman have his/her life destroyed.

If you were a Greek, or come the time when we face austerity, will you welcome these packages of massive cuts?

Or will it be a case of - "yes, i fully support the austerity measures, provided my own family are not threatened by the consequences)

or will you...

Happily lose your home leaving your family destitute?
You make the assumption that just one class of people in Greece is to blame. It is the entire society that has enjoyed a standard of living and social services that were paid for on borrowed money. This was exacerbated by a population that generally fiddled their taxes, and a civil service that was corrupt and couldn't be bothered to enforce the rules.

The options now for Greeks are..

1…To take the painful reality and pay for the lifestyle they have had on credit.

Or

2…To default on their borrowing and expect the rest of humanity to pay their bills.

You make the assumption that just one class of people in Greece is to blame. It is the entire society that has enjoyed a standard of living and social services that were paid for on borrowed money. This was exacerbated by a population that generally fiddled their taxes, and a civil service that was corrupt and couldn't be bothered to enforce the rules.

The options now for Greeks are..

1…To take the painful reality and pay for the lifestyle they have had on credit.

Or

2…To default on their borrowing and expect the rest of humanity to pay their bills.

Given their past behaviour which do you think it'll be?

In idiot terms if Greece fails the domino effect may take down Italy-Spain-France-Germany. These are our main trading partners. If they don't have money to trade we are in schtum.

The Greeks behavior could affect everyone but does no-one any good, ironically least of all themselves. As a country they need to sort themselves out because the days of sitting around, doing nothing and retiring at 60 are not sustainable. They never were. And now we might all pay the price.

Not really.

We're not in the €, and our own contribution to sorting out this mess is pretty minimal (not to say insignificant), compared to those of the € club members (Germany and France first and foremost).

The Greece issue is not a big deal for the UK, from a/your/the Gvt's cash point of view.

But its implications (if Greece defaults) are potentially a huge deal for the UK, if the EU comes apart as a result, since the EU (mostly the € zone therein) is still our largest commercial partner, by very far.

I read somewhere today that it would cost people here £14000 each, can't find where I read it now though.:huh:

How much are we paying? I think I've read billions but couldn't swear to it. I know the Germans and French really will be paying through the nose.

I know I'll sound like a simpleton but it isn't fair. Banks run out of money jo public pays and gets nothing out of it ( ie no banking reforms what so ever) country x goes under without wanting to help themselves and jo public to a greater or lesser degree pays as well. I know we aren't paying much and to an extent I can see why but if we keep bailing out idiots all we'll have is line of idiots behind them with their hands out. Italy will be next, then Spain, then Portugal then Ireland, then as we'll be knee deep in recession before too long it will be Greece or the banks again.

I disagree that it is your "average" Greeks fault.

Like most average people, including here in the UK your priority is to put food on the table and put a roof over your head.

If the Government of the day did not support manifacturing, or other wealth creating industrys, then your average Greek could not do what is classed as a productive job. If the job on offer was an odd public sector job and the role was a "coffee bar drinker", and the salary was 20k per annum, and your average Greek got that job, like most of us he or she would take that role.

The average Greek can only do the work that is available.

The country was ran by the polititians/the political class and they sent the country down the path that has ended up with this mess. I personally feel these people are happy to commit the average Greek to a life of hell, while they get away scot free saying, claiming they are "taking tough decisions".

These people taking the "tough decisions" will not be the ones to lose there homes. These people remind me of the armchair generals, the ones who believe that we must go around the world standing up to dictators (we have a duty), as long as someone else is doing the fighting/or dying.

With regards the 'living within your means' argument. YOu can only cut back so far, if you need £1000 a month just to pay for the essentials in life (food, gas, rent, council tax, petrol, insurance etc....) then if you take too much of a pay cut you will lose everything.

Also, lets not forget Greece are now having to put up with increased taxes - how many average British people could cope with an increase in tax?

Also in Ireland, wasn't the national minimum wage cut to something like £5.40 an hour (I don't know the exact figure). I personally would not like to run a house on that wage.

Austerity - we are all in it together.

Its like a ladder where everyone has to take one step down and the ladder leads into a river swarming with crocodiles, the political class at the top of the ladder are happy to take one step down, the average person who is at the bottom of the ladder is pooping his pants, because one step down and he is history

I think if the Greeks do vote against austerity measures the rest of Europe has every right to stop giving them billions in bailout money. I'm not sure the Germans, who are pumping in the most, will fancy giving all their hard earned to the bubbles only for them to turn round and say give me more I've spent it already. And we don't want the germans getting restless. ;)

The situation in Greece is a lot simpler than that. If the population vote against the bail out and the austerity measures the country would simply default on the money it already owes. It is mainly the repayment of it's obligations that means the country has no cash to pay the civil service. So by ignoring the debt it owes to the rest of the world Greece would probably be able to pay its workers more money. What those owed the huge amounts of money would think about that is difficult to gauge.

Also, lets not forget Greece are now having to put up with increased taxes - how many average British people could cope with an increase in tax?



From what I've read any tax payment would be an increase for the Greeks..they've been retiring very early (50 in some cases) on 95% of their income and haven't been paying their tax...the membership of the EU and joining the Eurozone must have been like manna from heaven for them..unfortunately,for them, the pigeons have come home to roost and it's time to cough up..but I don't suppose they will..they'll leave everyone else in the lurch..

I read somewhere today that it would cost people here £14000 each, can't find where I read it now though.:huh:Erm...at (a very conservative) 60 millions UK inhabitants, that adds up to £840 billions.

:D

Can I dare suggest that this figure was somewhat incorrect?

I disagree that it is your "average" Greeks fault.


Also, lets not forget Greece are now having to put up with increased taxes - how many average British people could cope with an increase in tax?


It doesn't really matter whether you agree or not. It doesn't alter the facts.

The average Greek was happy to receive unaffordable pensions paid for with borrowed money.
The average Greek was happy to have an infrastructure including roads, hospitals and schools that was funded using borrowed money.
The average Greek was happy to pay insufficient tax on whatever job they did and have a retirement age that the country couldn't afford.

How do we know that the average Greek was happy with this. Simple. The average Greek elected the Governments whose policy it was to provide them with a standard of living beyond the country's means.

So how many people who are calling the Greeks "tax avoiders" would not attempt to avoid paying tax if there were in a desperate situation?

Come on everyone, get real - so you find yourself in a desperate situation, you can't pay the bills so you set up a little sideline doing peoples gardens, would you pay tax or would you make sure your family has a roof over their heads?

It doesn't really matter whether you agree or not. It doesn't alter the facts.

The average Greek was happy to receive unaffordable pensions paid for with borrowed money.
The average Greek was happy to have an infrastructure including roads, hospitals and schools that was funded using borrowed money.
The average Greek was happy to pay insufficient tax on whatever job they did and have a retirement age that the country couldn't afford.

How do we know that the average Greek was happy with this. Simple. The average Greek elected the Governments whose policy it was to provide them with a standard of living beyond the country's means.



SO what would you have done in their situation?

So how many people who are calling the Greeks "tax avoiders" would not attempt to avoid paying tax if there were in a desperate situation?From very numerous reports (across the entire political spectrum), tax evasion in Greece has been endemic since well before the crisis started (and please, let's not have the whole evasion-vs-avoidance thing again).

Unsurprising, really, as it seems to be a national sport in most Club Meds, not just Greece.

To be in the situation you depict, suggests that the person would have to earn enough to reach a basic taxation threshold, before considering whether to pay their tax liability or not. Hardly 'desperate'.

Come on everyone, get real - so you find yourself in a desperate situation, you can't pay the bills so you set up a little sideline doing peoples gardens, would you pay tax or would you make sure your family has a roof over their heads?It doesn't really compare with the UK (that is the context of your question), since unemployed people generally don't pay tax (unless they have sufficient assets, in which case they are not 'desperate'), and employed people pay tax at source through PAYE (so don't really have an option to evade, unless of course we're talking income from a second job self-employed or on fiddle...so, again, hardly 'desperate').

SO what would you have done in their situation?

Voted for the other party.

I think the other issue for those who think that "others should pay the price" is that, although in the short term you may not be affected (if its others that are paying the price)

But desperate people are dangerous people, and sooner or later if things erupt then whoever you are, you will be dragged into this. You may not pay the price financially in the short term, but if a political party is able to capitalise of a country of desperate people, then whatever happens can affect us all.

Remember the 1930s. Hitler swept to power because the German people became desperate. The wheelbarrows were not large enough to carry the money needed to buy a loaf of bread

So how many people who are calling the Greeks "tax avoiders" would not attempt to avoid paying tax if there were in a desperate situation?

Come on everyone, get real - so you find yourself in a desperate situation, you can't pay the bills so you set up a little sideline doing peoples gardens, would you pay tax or would you make sure your family has a roof over their heads?

But they weren't in a despreate situation....they've been living on other people's money for years..retirement at 50 on 95% salary..is that affordable?

I think the other issue for those who think that "others should pay the price" is that, although in the short term you may not be affected (if its others that are paying the price)

But desperate people are dangerous people, and sooner or later if things erupt then whoever you are, you will be dragged into this. You may not pay the price financially in the short term, but if a political party is able to capitalise of a country of desperate people, then whatever happens can affect us all.



Tell you what then..I've maxxed out on my credit cards..I want you to pay my bills ..that OK with you?

Tell you what then..I've maxxed out on my credit cards..I want you to pay my bills ..that OK with you?You forgot to add the bit where, if blades89 doesn't pay your CC bill, this might affect him, as you will likely revert to a life of crime and might end up burgling his house or stealing his car... ;)

You forgot to add the bit where, if blades89 doesn't pay your CC bill, this might affect him, as you will likely revert to a life of crime and might end up burgling his house or stealing his car... ;)

Drat that was my next ploy...:) I have to keep my cars somehow..

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ianmcowie/100012894/fast-cars-and-loose-fiscal-morals-there-are-more-porsches-in-greece-than-taxpayers-declaring-50000-euro-incomes/

Don't do bad for a poor country do they..it must be such a struggle.. :)