Not just talking about the michael moore film, which highlighted the sickening and rotten way society is managed, along with peter josephs excellent series of zeitgeist films...

The st pauls cathedral protests are not just in this country, people have had enough all over the world, and i quite frankly hope it gets worse, because lets face, capitalism is and always has been radical evil

when george bush said it was the best system ever devised, he was quite honestly brainwashed by his own self supporting system of corruption

i seriously hope that we have a world wide movement that strikes at the very heart of all corrupting governments as well as the banking elite

what happened to my post ?

Not just talking about the michael moore film, which highlighted the sickening and rotten way society is managed, along with peter josephs excellent series of zeitgeist films...

The st pauls cathedral protests are not just in this country, people have had enough all over the world, and i quite frankly hope it gets worse, because lets face, capitalism is and always has been radical evil

when george bush said it was the best system ever devised, he was quite honestly brainwashed by his own self supporting system of corruption

i seriously hope that we have a world wide movement that strikes at the very heart of all corrupting governments as well as the banking elite

have you been reading karl marx by any chance.

I think the first thread was binned rather than moved here. In light if that I'll ask my original question.

What do you want instead Jason ?

i want world unification, where people of all kinds can live together in relative peace and harmony

but for some people that is un-attainable, it is only un-realistic to those that support this system

i want world unification, where people of all kinds can live together in relative peace and harmony

but for some people that is un-attainable, it is only un-realistic to those that support this system

That sounds lovely. How do you sign up and how many people do you need for it to happen ? I read the independent occasionally if that's a help.

god knows, that is if there is a god but that is another debate

but i do feel we are on the cusp of something here, these are dangerous times we live in

i suppose nobody has anything substantial to comment instead of sarcastic swipes

Not just talking about the michael moore film, which highlighted the sickening and rotten way society is managed, along with peter josephs excellent series of zeitgeist films...

The st pauls cathedral protests are not just in this country, people have had enough all over the world, and i quite frankly hope it gets worse, because lets face, capitalism is and always has been radical evil

when george bush said it was the best system ever devised, he was quite honestly brainwashed by his own self supporting system of corruption

i seriously hope that we have a world wide movement that strikes at the very heart of all corrupting governments as well as the banking elite


Now I see! The Berlin Wall must have been built to keep the capitalists out.

i want world unification, where people of all kinds can live together in relative peace and harmony

but for some people that is un-attainable, it is only un-realistic to those that support this system

But what do you want instead of capitalism? Your answer here is just wishy washy nonsense not related to your OP about how capitalism is evil.

as aposed to your comments or should i say, lack of them

Saw a really good documentary about the Wall Street Crash the other day.
It had exactly the same root causes as the 'Credit Crunch'.

So when the 'financial experts' told us (almost in unison) that the current crisis was different and much more complicated (so they couldn't predict it or do anything about it) they were:
A: Lying through their teeth.
B: Utterly incompetent but happy to talk out of their arses
C: Some combination of the above.

Wall Street Crash was a result of massive debt caused by cheap credit leant to speculators/investors on the Stock market

Credit Crunch was a result of massive debt caused by cheap credit leant to speculators/investors on the property market.

Both collapses were the result of $Squillions having been leant out with no collateral other than the impossible expectation of an eternally appreciating stock/property market. The moment of realisation was always only a matter of time. In the criminal courts they call it a Ponzi scheme.

The Credit Crunch was far from 'unprecedented' but entirely predictable by a direct comparison to the Wall Street Crash (or any other Ponzi scheme) and the many 'experts' who have done such a good job of informing the public that it happened otherwise, are clearly trying to exonerate themselves for their complicity in the inevitable results of the greedfest.

as aposed to your comments or should i say, lack of them

As opposed to your comments, or should I say, lack of them.

i want world unification, where people of all kinds can live together in relative peace and harmony

I don' think that's compatible with human (or any other animals) nature

i want world unification, where people of all kinds can live together in relative peace and harmony

but for some people that is un-attainable, it is only un-realistic to those that support this system

A bit like star trek then, everyone works in the job they are good at but no one gets paid because money and materialism have become irrelevant.

A bit like star trek then, everyone works in the job they are good at but no one gets paid because money and materialism have become irrelevant.

also, everyone seems to have a job they like, I do wonder who cleans the bogs in Star Trek, perhaps there is someone who loves doing that for no money ?

I do wonder who cleans the bogs in Star Trek
A Kling'On.

;)

also, everyone seems to have a job they like, I do wonder who cleans the bogs in Star Trek, perhaps there is someone who loves doing that for no money ?

:hihi::hihi::hihi::hihi:

A Kling'On.

;)

would this be your coat ?

as aposed to your comments or should i say, lack of them

Who is that aimed at?

would this be your coat ?
I'm not ashamed of my bad jokes. Let it sit there, in the glory of bad taste. :)

also, everyone seems to have a job they like, I do wonder who cleans the bogs in Star Trek, perhaps there is someone who loves doing that for no money ?

It could be some nano bot that turns crusty bog side klingons into food for the free food dispensers. :gag:

It could be some nano bot that turns crusty bog side klingons into food for the free food dispensers. :gag:

that's something to look forward to.

Donkey hits the nail on the head when he says the current Capitalist system we are in now, is a giant ponzi scheme. Capitalism has already failed, and we are bailing it out and taking the pain, whilst the Establishment has managed to control our governments and moved the debt from themselves to us.

You all need to wake up and smell the **** we in, and what we are leading our children into.

I see reasonable, respectable, hard-working, law abiding people on this board that are hanging onto old labour vs conservative arguments, and who are looking for someone to come up with an alternative to capitalism.

We dont have the big answer yet, im not sure there is one big answer. But we have to look for the alternatives together, and not be sheep any longer. There are lots of things we all agree are wrong with our democracy now. Its time we all agreed common ground, and stop bickering and ridiculing each other.

Without wanting to sound like I'm taking the Mick, what is the common ground ?

Without wanting to sound like I'm taking the Mick, what is the common ground ?

Just for once, we all have to work that out, rather than have someone tells us.

Donkey hits the nail on the head when he says the current Capitalist system we are in now, is a giant ponzi scheme. Capitalism has already failed, and we are bailing it out and taking the pain, whilst the Establishment has managed to control our governments and moved the debt from themselves to us.

You all need to wake up and smell the **** we in, and what we are leading our children into.

I see reasonable, respectable, hard-working, law abiding people on this board that are hanging onto old labour vs conservative arguments, and who are looking for someone to come up with an alternative to capitalism.

We dont have the big answer yet, im not sure there is one big answer. But we have to look for the alternatives together, and not be sheep any longer. There are lots of things we all agree are wrong with our democracy now. Its time we all agreed common ground, and stop bickering and ridiculing each other.

But you are ridiculing every one in your post by assuming we are all sheep.:)

But you are ridiculing every one in your post by assuming we are all sheep.:)

Ok common ground point 1. Don't call people who may or may not agree with you sheep.

All in favour say aye !

Ok common ground point 1. Don't call people who may or may not agree with you sheep.

All in favour say aye !

Aye .....:)

Ok common ground point 1. Don't call people who may or may not agree with you sheep.

All in favour say aye !

All Against say 'Baaah' :hihi:

Cripes ! People have spoken !! Does this make me chairperson or spokesperson or something ? Does that need a vote ? As I wasn't elected does that make my request null and void ?

This common ground thing is harder than it looks .…

We dont have the big answer yet, i'm not sure there is one big answer. But we have to look for the alternatives together, and not be sheep any longer.

So if the big answer involves everyone doing something (which it probably will) it's not going to work because you've just told everyone not to be sheep.

i think these schemes are just made up by adding to thousands of years of elitist power and rule

as soon as we all wake up and smell the very strong smell of coffee the better we all will be

i think that all these established societies and religions are equally as destroying especially religion, people who have strong faith values only believe in religion because they have no real sense of worth as to who they really are

also, these priests on st paul cathedral talking about jesus and what he would have done, if there even was a bloke called jesus, he would most certainly join the protesters and pitch up a tent, turning water into wine and sticking it to the system, these priests have been bought along with the church, it is all one huge business and that is that

the governments and royalty are a brainwashing money making machine, self perpetuating each other and never ever giving anything in return to the world and never ever doing anything that is actually relevant to our world

Ok, no governments - check. No religion - check. Not sure who'll run things but we'll work that out later. With the no religion thing, we'll see an upturn in paedos (although who will count them I don't know) but we might have an upturn in loneliness and I heard it gives people strength. We could allocate people to listen to other people's problems like religious leaders ( and jezza kyle) does. I'd like to dodge that cause other people's problems bores me to tears.

Not sure about the coffee. I'd ban it and stick it to costas and their overpriced giant jammy dodgers.

Donkey hits the nail on the head when he says the current Capitalist system we are in now, is a giant ponzi scheme. Capitalism has already failed, and we are bailing it out and taking the pain, whilst the Establishment has managed to control our governments and moved the debt from themselves to us.

You all need to wake up and smell the **** we in, and what we are leading our children into.

I see reasonable, respectable, hard-working, law abiding people on this board that are hanging onto old labour vs conservative arguments, and who are looking for someone to come up with an alternative to capitalism.

We dont have the big answer yet, im not sure there is one big answer. But we have to look for the alternatives together, and not be sheep any longer. There are lots of things we all agree are wrong with our democracy now. Its time we all agreed common ground, and stop bickering and ridiculing each other.

Democracy is a political system, capitalism is a market system. How do you move from one having a problem to the other without a clear link?

Someone mentioned star trek earlier - one answer really would be a trek type replicator (a universal assembler).

So, instead of sitting here discussing economics, get on yer bike and become a scientist :D

Someone mentioned star trek earlier - one answer really would be a trek type replicator (a universal assembler).


you'd also need to invent an unlimited power source, can you imagine the electricity bill for one of those things ?

you'd also need to invent an unlimited power source, can you imagine the electricity bill for one of those things ?

Hold on chaps, we're putting together a new world order here and I've just banned coffee. Do you think I'll hold much truck with electricity companies and their so called "bills". I think not !

I've just banned coffee.

so we can forget the idea of anyone working past lunch time.

its all become to complicated to go back to a barter system. money has to be used, or some form of credit. its the way people expect to earn money that outweighs the real value of what they produce. take doctors, what is their amperage wage ? 150 -190 k a year, company directors 2- 3 million?. nurses, 15- 18 k. manual worker, 18- 30 k. carer. 10- 14k. now can anyone honestly say that the company director gives more time commitment, care, value, than the care worker, so why is their value so much more. because they make are supposed to make huge profits for the company, that has not been working out o well recently, but the still get their money!!. where as the rest of us get to pay more and more, and the goverment says we are all in this together!, yeah right:mad:

I know this thread wasn't intended to be about Michael Moore, but even he admitted, in a Q&A session about his film, that we have never had true capitalism. What we have is corporatism and that's what his film really exposes (the fact that it needed exposing is ridiculous).

I would bet my bottom pound that, in spite of how many banners use the word "capitalism", most of these protestors are not anti-capitalist but anti-the-current-perverse-strain-of-capitalism.

Detail!

you'd also need to invent an unlimited power source, can you imagine the electricity bill for one of those things ?

They could use a Zero-Point Energy supply.

so we can forget the idea of anyone working past lunch time.

Tea and cold drinks will be fine.

its all become to complicated to go back to a barter system. money has to be used

I don't know we could all go back to walking round with a huge sack of apples to swap for a bag of coal and a goat, it was a great system.

They could use a Zero-Point Energy supply.

there you go, problem solved.

erm.......do we have a zero-point energy supply ?

I don't know we could all go back to walking round with a huge sack of apples to swap for a bag of coal and a goat, it was a great system.

it would have to be a big sack:gag:

it would have to be a big sack:gag:

I think you can see why money was invented.

Another myth to dispel: anti-actually-existing-capitalism does not mean you wish to return to a barter system. In fact, it can mean you want freer markets and a more competitive monetary system.

I think you can see why money was invented.
it was the jews wasnt it?. shylock and a pound of flesh. never read shake spear

No we can stick with money , it's more convenient. You go anywhere on the world and most wave a 100 dollar bill in front of someone to a certain extent they'll take it. So global currency will dollars. But isn't that what got us into this mess - the whole money thing? We could just share stuff I suppose, but some places will have stuff I and others don't want so they'd be in trouble ( coffee producing countries especially).

Help me out people.

there you go, problem solved.

erm.......do we have a zero-point energy supply ?

Not yet but I'l keep trying.:)

Not yet but I'l keep trying.:)

wait for the hadron collider to make that black hole, with a tear in the fabric of the universe, then we will have no problems at all! simples!

you'd also need to invent an unlimited power source, can you imagine the electricity bill for one of those things ?

1.21 gigawatts

No we can stick with money , it's more convenient. You go anywhere on the world and most wave a 100 dollar bill in front of someone to a certain extent they'll take it. So global currency will dollars. But isn't that what got us into this mess - the whole money thing? We could just share stuff I suppose, but some places will have stuff I and others don't want so they'd be in trouble ( coffee producing countries especially).

Help me out people.

Money itself didn't get us into bother. Money is just a means of exchange and can be a tool of liberty (when purchasing power is well distributed) or oppression (when purchasing power is capitalised into the assets of the top few percent).

Not yet but I'l keep trying.:)

keep us updated, though I expect a large explosion/black hole somewhere in the UK will probably alert us to your progress.

Money itself didn't get us into bother. Money is just a means of exchange and can be a tool of liberty (when purchasing power is well distributed) or oppression (when purchasing power is capitalised into the assets of the top few percent).

Ok so was that a yes or no to money ? And should it be nice handy universal one ( daily mail readers might want to look away now ) ??

Money itself didn't get us into bother. Money is just a means of exchange and can be a tool of liberty (when purchasing power is well distributed) or oppression (when purchasing power is capitalised into the assets of the top few percent).
but thats always been the case, man ermm sorry humanity has always preyed upon each other. slaves, cannibalism. church, monarchy, power is always sort in whatever form. unfortunatliy its going to the east now, its the western world that are being bought and controlled by the Asia economies. and we whinge about it.

Ok so was that a yes or no to money ? And should it be nice handy universal one ( daily mail readers might want to look away now ) ??

It depends under what conditions you advocate it.

I'm really not sure.

Dont we have experts for this sort of thing ?

we could quite easily cope in this world without money, the whole concept of money is totally outdated

we should all withdraw every single penny out of our banks or where ever people save it, then dump it all in truck loads at the very doors of our societies elit, then burn it all

money has caused more grief, wars, famine, poverty and corruption than anything and that is a fact, you can not really argue with that

the system and the people who support it have an automatic and somewhat inevitable built in failure about it, the system only ever succeeds when it makes up for something failing in the first place, it can never succeed on top of something good and it never will

What do you propose as a way to exchange labour and goods for other labour and goods if not money?

Ok, money's out (this is Jason's idea after all), but so is coffee. We don't make much in this country anymore, in fact most of our GDP comes from the financial services. We do sell weapons though. Do we barter more of them ?

I'm afraid you might cause a civil war if you try to ban coffee. I'll happily put you up against the wall for that idea myself!

I like coffee. We all like coffee but in cups or mugs not crappy paper pint pots that cost 3 quid a go. Your views are taken on board though and we don't want a civil war ( not with all these guns we've now made for barter knocking about) so coffee is but it's coffee only. Not latte, capacino etc. And it's rationed but not by messers costa, Nero, starbucks et al. No, little chefs shall be the coffee guardians.

we could quite easily cope in this world without money, the whole concept of money is totally outdated

we should all withdraw every single penny out of our banks or where ever people save it, then dump it all in truck loads at the very doors of our societies elit, then burn it all

money has caused more grief, wars, famine, poverty and corruption than anything and that is a fact, you can not really argue with that

the system and the people who support it have an automatic and somewhat inevitable built in failure about it, the system only ever succeeds when it makes up for something failing in the first place, it can never succeed on top of something good and it never will


You can forward your unwanted money to me. Wrap up well. It's going to be a cold winter living outdoors :hihi:

I like coffee. We all like coffee but in cups or mugs not crappy paper pint pots that cost 3 quid a go. Your views are taken on board though and we don't want a civil war ( not with all these guns we've now made for barter knocking about) so coffee is but it's coffee only. Not latte, capacino etc. And it's rationed but not by messers costa, Nero, starbucks et al. No, little chefs shall be the coffee guardians.

They serve filter coffee at Starbucks you know!

I know it's off topic, but this is part of the capitalism that the OP hates. If people didn't want to buy extra tall, super skinny, no fat, decaf, late's with an extra shot, then these places wouldn't exist. They can only exist if people want to use them to buy coffee.

They serve filter coffee at Starbucks you know!

I know it's off topic, but this is part of the capitalism that the OP hates. If people didn't want to buy extra tall, super skinny, no fat, decaf, late's with an extra shot, then these places wouldn't exist. They can only exist if people want to use them.

My Bold
The same could be said of the suppliers of heroin. That is why it is an argument against the consumerist doctrine of 'the market', not for it.

You need to browse around more!:sad:

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/09/obama-ordered-to-denver-bunker-by-us-military/

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261&q

http://achernahr.easycgi.com/VList.asp?Series=1&Video=91

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkVnFtYeuBY&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/10/swiss-researchers-elite-controls-global-economy/

Not just talking about the michael moore film, which highlighted the sickening and rotten way society is managed, along with peter josephs excellent series of zeitgeist films...

The st pauls cathedral protests are not just in this country, people have had enough all over the world, and i quite frankly hope it gets worse, because lets face, capitalism is and always has been radical evil

when george bush said it was the best system ever devised, he was quite honestly brainwashed by his own self supporting system of corruption

i seriously hope that we have a world wide movement that strikes at the very heart of all corrupting governments as well as the banking elite


The plain truth is that the Love of Money is the Root of all Evil. Its just that people don't like to hear the truth.

Despite my apparent inaction I have found a template for the no government, no money thing.


Somalia.

good quality coffee costs a fortune

Despite my apparent inaction I have found a template for the no government, no money thing.


Somalia.

Introduce a maximum wage and a limit of capital savings and assets.

Once that limit (lets call it a greed factor) is reached then the excesses are taxed at 100 percent unless used to create further production or infrastructure necessitating employment for those who can never aspire to come close to the set limits of ownership.

Once you have enough wealth to live a life of ultimate oppolence for you and your kids and grandkids then i think you dont really need further wealth and should be made to use it creatively or have it taken away.

There would be no rich list as the top earners would be tied in a dead heat and the bank calculators would know how many noughts on a savings account would be enough.

Not just capitalism.........M and S capitalism

If anyone had bothered to look at the second videolink, that last post is just not going to happen (is it Mr Rotheschild?)

No we can stick with money , it's more convenient.Agreed.
So global currency will dollars.No need. Look where the latest 'semi-global'/'multi-national' currency attempt (€) is currently heading.
But isn't that what got us into this mess - the whole money thing?No, speculation on the money thing got us into this mess. This time like the last (as corrently pointed out by donkey a while back).
Help me out people.Simples. Probably far too simples. But hey...

Maintain currencies, maintain the shares system, but prohibit (globally, and strictly):
(i) share prices from being based on anything other than the value of a company's physical assets at any one time (buildings, physical stocks, etc. basically, anything you can hold or grab in your hand that belongs in whole or part to the company)
(ii) speculation on anything other than physical assets already produced (no derivatives, futures, etc.)
(iii) negative speculation (betting on a negative outcome...I'm having a brain fart about the exact terminology)

Introduce a maximum wage and a limit of capital savings and assets.

Once that limit (lets call it a greed factor) is reached then the excesses are taxed at 100 percent unless used to create further production or infrastructure necessitating employment for those who can never aspire to come close to the set limits of ownership.

Once you have enough wealth to live a life of ultimate oppolence for you and your kids and grandkids then i think you dont really need further wealth and should be made to use it creatively or have it taken away.

There would be no rich list as the top earners would be tied in a dead heat and the bank calculators would know how many noughts on a savings account would be enough.

Not just capitalism.........M and S capitalism

There would also be no need to continue to work or invent at that point, so the wealth that people were generating, people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates wouldn't exist.
Or they'd just leave your land of limited socialism and move their income to somewhere else, depending on whether it was a worldwide thing or not.
I don't quite understand how it would work though, Bill owns shares in Microsoft there value increased, what do you do with that capital, just steal it? What do you do if the value falls again tomorrow, just give some back?

(i) share prices from being based on anything other than the value of a company's physical assets at any one time (buildings, physical stocks, etc. basically, anything you can hold or grab in your hand that belongs in whole or part to the company)
You can't 'prohibit' shares being worth what someone will pay for them, which is all they are ever worth.
(ii) speculation on anything other than physical assets already produced (no derivatives, futures, etc.)
If you don't like futures then you probably don't understand them very well. They're a valuable market tool.
(iii) negative speculation (betting on a negative outcome...I'm having a brain fart about the exact terminology)
Shorting. And why the hell not, it's another valid market tool.

Agreed.
No need. Look where the latest 'semi-global'/'multi-national' currency attempt (€) is currently heading.
No, speculation on the money thing got us into this mess. This time like the last (as corrently pointed out by donkey a while back).
Simples. Probably far too simples. But hey...

Maintain currencies, maintain the shares system, but prohibit (globally, and strictly):
(i) share prices from being based on anything other than the value of a company's physical assets at any one time (buildings, physical stocks, etc. basically, anything you can hold or grab in your hand that belongs in whole or part to the company)
(ii) speculation on anything other than physical assets already produced (no derivatives, futures, etc.)
(iii) negative speculation (betting on a negative outcome...I'm having a brain fart about the exact terminology)

Sounds like a plan, shorting is the term I think you were looking for and in my opinion is very dodgy practice of betting on share prices falling.

. . .. . . , capitalism is and always has been radical evil . . . . . Rather that than the unworkable dream of socialism.
i want world unification, where people of all kinds can live together in relative peace and harmony

but for some people that is un-attainable, it is only un-realistic to those that support this systemWhat you want is all well and good.

A lot of people rather like capitalism though. I'm encouraged by a society which favours elitism - a system which allows and encourages those with skill and motivation to strive for achievement, because by so doing they pioneer technologies and create wealth and employment for others.

The people who despise capitalism tend to be the ones who realise they screwed up by not working hard enough at school and don't like being at the bottom of the social ladder (champagne socialists aside of course).

You can't 'prohibit' shares being worth what someone will pay for them, which is all they are ever worth.
If you don't like futures then you probably don't understand them very well. They're a valuable market tool.
Shorting. And why the hell not, it's another valid market tool.tinfoilhat asked for solutions, I merely suggested some (that would prevent the 'valid market tools' from evolving into the sort which are the root problem of the financial sneeze of these past few years).

I don't disagree that these 'market tools' (which I understand just fine, thank you very much...but I'll have a bit more condescending if there's some left-over, please) are valid and useful.

The issue is the context of 'moral' or 'social' responsibility in which they should be used at all times - i.e. a framework or set of boundaries, outside which the risk to the general economies exceeds their validity and usefulness if and when they got t*ts up.

If traders/financial houses won't stick to these of their own accord (which they wouldn't of course, greed is go[o]d), then the simplest solution is to cut the problem (or the potential for it to be come a problem) at the source.

Of course I'd expect share prices to still go up and down, through the interplay of trading - albeit limitedly. With a share valuation restricted to physical assets (rather than 'never-never' indicia like e.g. profit forecasts, new contracts, etc.), the potential for creating/maintaining artificial 'bubbles' (e.g. à la dot.com) should be cut at the knees: there is nothing to underwrite never-never money, there is always 'something' to sell for 'realising' a share. The more of the 'something', the higher the share value (which happens when the company grows). As I said, simples.

It also puts the onus back on good company management, and restricts financial (horse-)play.

I can always find a bit more :D

Financial markets and tools need controls, but you were suggesting banning them, rather than applying appropriate controls to them.

You can't restrict share price as you suggest though, it's meaningless and would be impossible to administer. Shares are priced based on a number of things, but a key one is the perceived potential for future profit, remove that and shares may as well not exist at all because there price is no longer linked to the chance of them generating income.

Rather that than the unworkable dream of socialism.



So you believe we have two options. The current system, or a Soviet style sytem? This seems like a somewhat myopic understanding of the options available.


A lot of people rather like capitalism though. I'm encouraged by a society which favours elitism - a system which allows and encourages those with skill and motivation to strive for achievement, because by so doing they pioneer technologies and create wealth and employment for others.



You equate crashing the Global economy through a form of parasitism - designed to scrape percentages from other people's labours and innovations - with pioneering technologies and creating wealth?



The people who despise capitalism tend to be the ones who realise they screwed up by not working hard enough at school and don't like being at the bottom of the social ladder (champagne socialists aside of course).

There are undoubtedly character traits associated with ideologies. Fervant 'capitalists' often seem to be sociopaths, and if they are authoritarian as well, they often seem to display psychopathic tendencies.

However, there is no evidence to suggest accurate assumptions can be made about personality according to political outlook. People are more complex than machines.

He didn't equate crashing the global economy with wealth creation, he equated capitalism with it.
Of course capitalism unfettered has it's downside and needs social regulation, democratically moderated capitalism if you like, or maybe liberal socialist capitalism.

He didn't equate crashing the global economy with wealth creation, he equated capitalism with it.
Of course capitalism unfettered has it's downside and needs social regulation, democratically moderated capitalism if you like, or maybe liberal socialist capitalism.

The implication of his post was that there is no viable alternative to the present system - which inevitably leads to repeated cycles of boom and bust.

There is nothing wrong with rewarding people proportionate to their efforts, nor encouraging the development of socially useful talents and creativity through incentives. However, capitalism is generally understood to mean more than that.

Under the present systyem, the people who are rewarded the most tend to be those who make money off other people without actually producing anything themselves. This leads to arbitrary and unstable values being put on products, services and labour, which in turn leads to political and economic instability.

Furthermore, being the wealthiest, and therefore also the most powerful, the speculators are able to use their influence to perpetuate this system, which is fundamentally dependent on inequality. Because of this, vital decisions concerning all our futures are made on the basis of the short term interests of a minority. That is what is wrong with what is known as 'capitalism.' And it is a very big wrong.

Unfortunately, it is generally held as an article of faith by many that you can't have one (enterprise) without the other (speculation.) I don't see any evidence for this belief myself.

Financial markets and tools need controls, but you were suggesting banning them, rather than applying appropriate controls to them.I don't believe that I was suggesting banning markets and most financial tools. Rather, further codifying the control (to ensure trading is limited to existing capital, not 'extrapolated' capital - see below) and getting rid of some tools devised to purely enrich (shorting springs to mind) rather than develop. Somehow, reign in the 'speculative speculation', so to call it.
You can't restrict share price as you suggest though, it's meaningless and would be impossible to administer.I don't have all the answers, C, but...
Shares are priced based on a number of things, but a key one is the perceived potential for future profit, remove that and shares may as well not exist at all because there price is no longer linked to the chance of them generating income.That is where the system has gone wrong for too long a time IMHO, to the situation where the tail ('future potential') truly and clearly wags the dog ('actual performance and corresponding worth'). There is something clearly wrong with a system that allows the halving of an international multi-$bn company's share price overnight (Olympus) based on mere speculation and gossip.

Surely some rules/controls/etc. can now be devised, implemented and enforced, to avoid yet another bis repetita of '29, wherein share prices bear just about no correspondence to a company's actual worth (or, in our more enlightened times (:rolleyes:), financial products built from risky never-never money à la subprime mortgages can even be proposed to the market, never mind actively traded).

Surely some rules/controls/etc. can now be devised, implemented and enforced, to avoid yet another bis repetita of '29, wherein share prices bear just about no correspondence to a company's actual worth (or, in our more enlightened times (:rolleyes:), financial products built from risky never-never money à la subprime mortgages can even be traded).

This is the crux of the matter. One approach would be to introduce a system of 'brakes' - the idea being to identify products and services which are rapidly valuing solely on the expectation of further rises in value (a bubble) - as opposed to a rise in their intrinsic value - and put in place measures designed to stop these 'feeding frenzies' in their tracks, before they gain momentum.

The big problem is that global politics is so closely linked to the people and institutions who make vast fortunes from the boom and bust system. It would take a sea change in public opinion and awareness to exert the type of pressure neccessary to impose fundamental change. I'm not massively optimistic about it.

That sounds lovely. How do you sign up and how many people do you need for it to happen ? I read the independent occasionally if that's a help.


You pretend it's 1968. You move to Laurel Canyon and smoke lots of weed and wear a Kaftan and dance around with flowers in your hair. You need a different strategy for 1969.