I learnt French & German at school,but it was a long time ago and I cant remember any of it.Was reading that people who can speak another language,apart from their own,have less chance of developing Alzeimers.Dont know why this is,but its true.I would like to learn a foreign language,but does anyone know what the easiest one to learn is ?:huh: Any suggestions for the easiest one ?

I learnt French & German at school,but it was a long time ago and I cant remember any of it.Was reading that people who can speak another language,apart from their own,have less chance of developing Alzeimers.Dont know why this is,but its true.I would like to learn a foreign language,but does anyone know what the easiest one to learn is ?:huh:

pigeon English coo coo coo

seriously you just said you learnt French & German at school & you have less
chance of developing Alzeimers then you can't remember any of it:o :hihi:

pigeon English coo coo coo

seriously you just said you learnt French & German at school & you have less
chance of developing Alzeimers then you can't remember any of it:o :hihi:

Oh No, it's started already! :hihi: :hihi:

Italian's not that difficult. Well, once you know what all the letters are supposed to sound like it's really easy to read and pronounce anyway.

I speak French (kind of - it's what I'm doing at uni) and Italian, on a more basic level.

i can speak:

english (obviously!)
urdu
punjabi
french

not bad sayin im 15! lol!!!

On a serious note, I speak German but that's because I had to as I live in Germany. It was alot easier to learn as I was listening to it every day. I had French lessons in school but didn't take thém seriously enough although alot has stuck in my memory. I think if I wanted to learn another language I'd go for Spanish.

I'm told I do all the time.... so I must be able to. :D

Ally do you know Russelheim?

Apart from French at school (most of which I've forgotten as I never use it) I tried to learn Greek. Wanted to be able to communicate on holidays and fancied a job as a holiday rep so took a course at Richmond college. Never realised my dream working abroad but gained a husband :love: :love: :love:

Been married to him for nearly 14 years so I'd recommend learning another language!!!

Ally do you know Russelheim?

what language is russelheim?:confused: :hihi:

Hmm well, PHP, Perl, Python, HTML, XML, XHTML, CSS, Bash, Java, C++, C, SQL, Formate, Baan script...

Oh, actual languages, well I struggle with english most of the time.

Joel

S'agapo yinneka mou!

Ally do you know Russelheim?

Had never heard of it till now. I have just looked it up on the map and Rüsselheim is near to Frankfurt which is about 200km from where I am.

Two dogs sat in a park.
One says to the other 'miaoww'
The other says 'what the heck are you on about?'
'I'm learning a foreign language' the first dog replies.

Had never heard of it till now. I have just looked it up on the map and Rüsselheim is near to Frankfurt which is about 200km from where I am.

I spend a lot of time there at the Opel plant.... bit far away to meet up with you and yours for a quick pint though.... still can't grasp the German.... sept sometimes by the throat. :D


what language is russelheim? :confused: :hihi:

What can I say.... :D :D :D

English, Barnsley, "O" level French and advanced b*llsh*t.

And a smidgin' of Geordie courtesy of watching Bill and Ben as a kid......."Wayay Slobollop........."

english, bit french, bit german, count to 4 in japenease and i talk a whole lot of b*ll*x which gets me by pretty well :D :D oh and grew up in durham so talk geordie canny gud like when i wanna ;)

francais, espanyol, italiano y ingles...

and the universal language of love... lol :)

Someone suggested Italian and it could be right? I think the main thing is not what is easiest but which country motivates you and where might the language be most useful?
I have seen where people have come back from a summer holiday decreeing that they are going to join a night class in September. 30 people enrol but then the dark nights arrive, people 'getting ready for Christmas' and then the weather turns such that the register has a hard core of half a dozen attending by January.
If you are going to make a go of it, you must make a continuous effort with books, tapes, maybe writing letters or buying newspapers.
French, Italian and Spanish are 'Romantic' languages and if you know one of these, you'll find there are common roots which should help you with another one.
German, Dutch and Swedish are 'Germanic' languages and they have a different structure that is common to those three.
I think, that rather than do French and German, you are better sticking to the same 'group'. The bottom line is self-motivation but if you want to do it, you will. I think you have to choose the language/country which offers you the greater interest, then you can enhance the language when you visit the country. People of that country will always welcome someone trying to speak to them in their native tongue.

I'm currently learning Portuguese because I spent a month in Brazil with my job and loved it so much that I would like a long term secondment out there. I've found it fairly easy to pick up so far and apparantly it's very similar to Spanish.

I used to speak good French at school but I've forgotten a lot of it although I have been back to France in the last couple of years and managed to get by.

I also tried learning Greek as my parents have a place over in Corfu and I used to go there every year when I was younger but found I lacked motivation to really learn the language!

Chairboy makes a good point above in that you have to really want to learn the language otherwise there's no point. I really want to learn Portuguese and have been studying in my lunch hours. I also have some Brazilian friends who have been helping me learn by emailing me in Portuguese and insisting I reply in Portuguese which has really accelerated my learning. I'm going over to Brazil in 3 weeks on holiday too and can't wait to see just how much I've learned!

Good luck!

I learnt French & German at school,but it was a long time ago and I cant remember any of it.Was reading that people who can speak another language,apart from their own,have less chance of developing Alzeimers.Dont know why this is,but its true.I would like to learn a foreign language,but does anyone know what the easiest one to learn is ?:huh:


i can speak chinese,only when rat arsed though:)

I think the protection from Alzheimers is to do with the increase in neural connections, but don't quote me as gospel on it.

I heard any learning is good for keeping your mental faculties, a sort of "use it or lose it".

However there are a number of cases I have heard of, where the person with Alzheimers was an academic, or spectacularly talented (I can think of Iris Murdoch, the poet, as a f'r'instance)

As well as English, and "bad-English"! lol:-

I speak French, (sadly, it's rusty, these days...)

Spanish...

A smattering of Arabic and Urdu...

A few, quite limited phrases of Japanese...

and I don't exactly "speak" it but I have BSL, too (British Sign Language)

P "my name-sign is 'Actress' !" T

English,
American,
Canadian,
Australian,
New Zealandian.

I can read, and write German almost fluently...

I dont understand it when spoken, and i cant SPEAK it.

Thats what you get for only using books to learn it ;)

English,
American,
Canadian,
Australian,
New Zealandian.

Scottish? Northern Irish?

sorry i already answered this one... d'oh

the morning after... the night before... d'oh

Apart from English I speak fluent German (living here like Ally). Learned French at school to A Level, can still read it, but don't understand much when it's spoken. Learned Italian, which is easy, as was said here already.

I also learned Esperanto. Also very easy, so easy that I've forgotten it.:D

Scottish? Northern Irish?



No. I can't understand a word of it.
Comes in handy when that Eamon Holmes is blocking my TV screen!!

Can get by in German and French, and find it quite easy to pick up bits and pieces in most languages, its just a case of picking up a few words, then making sense of putting them in a sentence, and take it from there.

wont matter soon anyway when the universal world languages become english, spanish and mandarin :D


:banana:

I learnt French & German at school,but it was a long time ago and I cant remember any of it.Was reading that people who can speak another language,apart from their own,have less chance of developing .Dont know why this is,but its true.I would like to learn a foreign language,but does anyone know what the easiest one to learn is ?:huh:

I got my 'O' levels in French and German but didn't do so well with Latin. Can still make sense of written French and German with the aid of a dictionary as the grammar seems to have stuck whereas most of the vocubulary I've lost.

I'd say the best way to pick up a fluency is to live in the country of the native speaker for a while; I think you can buy interactive courses on DVD but you'd need a microphone attached to the PC to use them. I'd say French is easier than German and you would probably find you remember quite a lot from your school days once you started.

Interesting idea about Alzeimers, I'll have to start brushing up on my French - though I fear it may already be too late ;)

Yes, I speak fluent French (with a few mistakes!) after living in Paris for 8 years although I agree that you do lose it if you don't use it.

And can get by quite nicely in Spanish and German. I love languages, they fascinate me.

Anyone fancy helping me polish up my French? :hihi:

Yes I can speak Sheffield and English

I grew up in Madagascar, a French colony then. So in 1945 I came to Woodseats School able to speak French and Malagasy. After I'd been thumped round the playground several times, I found it safer to forget them both.
Seriously, learn German; it's much more like English, and many translations of poetry come out almost word for word.

i can speak:

english (obviously!)
urdu
punjabi
french

not bad sayin im 15! lol!!!

English, Punjabi, Urdu and Er American :)

I have German O'level but found when I came to live in Germany that it wasn't a lot of use. I could recite lists of prepositions and case endings but couldn't converse with anyone! I thought I'd finally got the hang of speaking and understanding it when I moved from north to south Germany and had to start all over again with the local dialect.

My daughter speaks German, English and "school English" - ie the kind of English her teacher tells her she ought to speak. So I'm not sure language teaching has progressed much since my day, at least not here.

Like others have said, it must be best to learn a language you're really interested in. And it would help if you could visit the country easily or otherwise have contact with "real" speakers of it. Total immersion is the best way to learn!

I have German O'level but found when I came to live in Germany that it wasn't a lot of use. I could recite lists of prepositions and case endings but couldn't converse with anyone! I thought I'd finally got the hang of speaking and understanding it when I moved from north to south Germany and had to start all over again with the local dialect.


Do you mean the pronounciations of "-ig" at the end of words?

In some areas, a word such as Svanzig (twenty) is pronounced "sv-ansigg" (hard) in others, it's pronounced "svansidge" (softer).

PT

English, Francais, Deutsch, 日本語, 汉语

Do you mean the pronounciations of "-ig" at the end of words?


PT

Sort of - magnified a million times. Like a very strong regional accent with lots of local words thrown in. For instance the local school play recently was entitled "Kinner, Schul unn annere Kadaschdrofe" (kids, school and other catastrophes) which in "high" German would be "Kinder, Schule und andere Katastrophen"

Give me another 10 years and I might get the hang of it!

pigeon English coo coo coo

seriously you just said you learnt French & German at school & you have less
chance of developing Alzeimers then you can't remember any of it:o :hihi:Well,it was 59 years ago !!:hihi:

If I can remember,I think German was the easiest to learn at school,but as Im more likely to visit France than Germany,I think I will go for French.:thumbsup:

wont matter soon anyway when the universal world languages become english, spanish and mandarin :D

Good job I'm working on the latter then :) Though going by the D I gained in GCSE Russian it's going to be a long slog before I'm anything close to being fluent in Mandarin Chinese... At least I've got one or two other phrases to get me by on my travels - I can say Hello in Poland (Dzien dobry), introduce myself in France (Je mapelle Chris (sp??)) and tell people to keep an eye out for prehistoric wildlife in Wales (Gwylwc y mamot).

Si nien kuai le :) (Happy New Year!)

Pattricia
I sat my French exam at age 60, did it at school and failed, so decided to take it again.
The same things I found difficult at 15 I still found difficult at 60 but I was determined to get it---- so passed

hazel

I can speak a little french and turkish to get me by when i go visit.I do not know why but i understand the language when it spoken to me better then myself speeking it to people.

Now if i talk to my daughter and ask her to do something, i like to know what language iam speeking at the time as she always ither looks at me gone out or shakes her head at me as if she does not understand.

Currently learning to read, write and speak Thai, and I'm also trying to learn to speak Lisu.

Sort of - magnified a million times. Like a very strong regional accent with lots of local words thrown in. For instance the local school play recently was entitled "Kinner, Schul unn annere Kadaschdrofe" (kids, school and other catastrophes) which in "high" German would be "Kinder, Schule und andere Katastrophen"

Give me another 10 years and I might get the hang of it!

so that's the equivalent of a yorkshire dialect speaker saying something like "Bairns, Skoyyal, and other B*lls-ups?" (chuckles)

PT

As well as speeking the Inglish:
I'm fluent in Arabic.
I can count numbers in French, German, Italian and Russian
I can say greetings in Somali, Russian and Urdu
I know all the Japanese I need to get by
I can curse in Urdu, Hebrew, French, German and Italian (should come in handy if I join in one of those anti-globalisation riots)

Pattricia
I sat my French exam at age 60, did it at school and failed, so decided to take it again.
The same things I found difficult at 15 I still found difficult at 60 but I was determined to get it---- so passed

hazelCongratulations,Hazel ! I will look out for a nice French book the next time I am in Waterstones.:thumbsup:

Not sure if I should admit to this on a public forum, but I went through a stage years ago where I could speak fluent Klingon, off Star Trek.

Cos I bought a game called Star Trek Klingon for PC, which had an extra app called Klingon Language Lab, which had voice recognition and taught you to speak like a proper Klingon warrior, I even got the accent down to a tee :blush:

For proper real life languages though, I did French and Spanish at School, I've forgot practically all the Spanish give or take the odd word, but I can remember enough French to at least get by if I ever go to France again, I can order a beer in a French Pub at least...

I know a little Urdu and Punjabi, and I can also speak fluent Ghetto.

I speak English as a second lanuage, Yorkshie is my mother tongue, I can also get by in french and Spanish.

I can speak Cantonese as a mother tongue, and English as a second language. I prob can count to 20 in German, and maybe 10 in French. Does it count ?

I would love to learn Italian and maybe Spanish.

I have a friend from Barnsley, he speaks Dingleish

My French is very rusty as learnt it at school, can speak some Arabic but it's things like, do you need a wee? Would you like the bed pan, so not really conversational.........unless you're a little strange of course :loopy:

I use to be able to do when I was bloody p*ssed all the time, nobody could understand what I was saying not even my ex wife and she though she knew me.

What an interesting collection of languages! Seems there is some linguistic talent in Sheffield.

I learnt French at school and can get by, but as Ialso learnt Latin I can fairly easily read Italian and Spanish...I spent a little time in Norway and picked up a bit of it at the time (so Danish isn't so hard to read either, but Swedish is more fearsome).

Can count in various languages and can read words in Greek but haven't many clues what it means!

Oh, and I know Old English too (Anglo-Saxon), although Anglo-Saxons are a bit thin on the ground to have a conversation with...

Courtesy of my German other half, I speak reasonable German. Not so hot at writing it, but at least the in laws understand me. Unfortunately, they live in the German equivalent of Newcastle and I have a job understanding them! :suspect:

After six years of French and two years of Spanish, I'm only able to say a handful of useless phrases, such as "Si c'est pour moi, tes amis ont des idees stupides."

Translation: "If that's for me, your friends have stupid ideas."

Tant pis! C'est la vie. Ce n'est pas vrai?

Just speak English slowly in a loud patronising voice and end every word with 'O'. Even thicko foreigners will understand you.
Dont forget WE discovered THEM. they should all be made to speak English:D :D

can speak some Arabic but it's things like, do you need a wee? Would you like the bed pan, so not really conversational.........unless you're a little strange of course :loopy:

At my son's nursery, where I used to help out as a teachers' aide, those were some of the most important and useful phrases available.

A high proportion of the kiddies were Pakistani, and had very little English, being tinies, and not having been outside the home/ community a lot by that age (well they were only 2 1/2 to 3 years old bless 'em) so the first phrases you learnt were

"What's your name?" ("Vo aap ka nyam kya-heh?")

And

"do you need a wee/ poo?" " Peshaab/ pakaaab?" (if they were stood looking distressed as only a toddler-needing-the-loo could look! lol)

PT

A high proportion of the kiddies were Pakistani, and had very little English, being tinies, and not having been outside the home/ community a lot by that age (well they were only 2 1/2 to 3 years old bless 'em) so the first phrases you learnt were

"What's your name?" ("Vo aap ka nyam kya-heh?")

And

"do you need a wee/ poo?" " Peshaab/ pakaaab?" (if they were stood looking distressed as only a toddler-needing-the-loo could look! lol)

PT

As these children are probably the offspring of third generation British Pakistanis, is it not incumbent upon their parents to teach them at least the rudiments of the English language before they enter school (whether nursery or primary?). Or am I being unduly churlish on this cold, grey February morning?

I think churlish might well be an apt description, as it assumes that the families in question were X generation- immigrant, which in fact, a lot of them weren't.

A lot of the parents were themselves, immigrant, and not settlers.

PT

But you specifically mentioned that these were of Pakistani origin. Now it is true that a very significant proportion of Pakistanis of marriagable age seek their spouses from Pakistan (in the case of Bangla Deshis, the figure is about 60%), despite the fact that there is a very large pool of potentially suitable British Pakistani partners to choose from. However, at least one of the partners is likely to have been born and raised here and should have a very good standard of English. I don't think it is churlish to raise the issue as to why so many people with origins in the Indian sub-continent still seek their partners from this source, unless of course they wish to insulate and isolate themselves from the cultural influences of the host community.

Lord Chaverly has not a single 'churlish' bone in his body, being beautiful on all planes. Why should he not raise such issues? There are clear, very real indications that large numbers of Asian immigrants do indeed seek to 'insulate and isolate' themselves from our secular, liberal democratic culture. The question is invariably asked, 'Why come to Britain in the first instance?' And the answer is given [the familiar phrases roll], 'Because they want to make a better life for themselves'. That, one reflects, is all terribly touching. Are we supposed to be flattered, and view their desire to come to Britain as a compliment? I am free to reject a compliment if I so wish. Economic migrants who do not even bother to teach their offspring the rudiments of the host language have no place in any society at ease with itself [forgive the reification]. Unless, that is, one is comfortable with a society of strangers. I for one am not.

As these children are probably the offspring of third generation British Pakistanis, is it not incumbent upon their parents to teach them at least the rudiments of the English language before they enter school (whether nursery or primary?). Or am I being unduly churlish on this cold, grey February morning?

I have two little boys, the eldest has just started nursury.
I have made a concerted effort to speak to them in Urdu only.
I dont think that you're being churlish, but please allow me to explain the rationale behind why I chose this option.

I myself went to school not speaking a single word of English, as my parents were immigrants and spoke very little English. My father was at work and learnt his English from his work collegues (very basic, but covered the swears very thoroughly :) ), My mother once she got us all off to school took classes and learnt English (as well as Arabic in order to recite the Quraan).

The problem is that once I and my brothers learnt English it became our main language ( we always speak to each other in English). If we hadn't have learnt Punjabi/Urdu in the early years we probably would not have learnt it period.

I do have several friends who speak v little in terms of the language their parents talk. They honestly feel embarassed and many of their elders (uncles/aunties etc) tend to look down at them.

The main reason is purely to ensure that our offspring have a connection with their ancestral language(s). (Its also A factor in why so many Asians get married from Pakistan/India/Bangladesh, but there are others as well)

I have a friend who came here when he was 11, and he's went onto do A Levels, get a degree and has worked for HSBC now for 11 years as a Senior Manager.

I honestly dont believe its a question of insulating or isolating ourselves from British values, that would be silly and impossible. Short of taking the Amish approach and living out in the middle of no where I dont see how you can possibly take that approach.

Remember that children once they hit school will spend much more of their time, outside the home than they will at home. Subsequently there is v little chance of them being isolated from society at large.

There are ofcourse issues around immigrant communities sticking together, but if you were to look at that rationally its totally understandable. Brits that migrate out to places like Spain tend to do exactly the same.

There will always be an argument that more should be done, and with time I'm sure things will change.

Time and Change are two tides that no one can hold back.

But you specifically mentioned that these were of Pakistani origin. Now it is true that a very significant proportion of Pakistanis of marriagable age seek their spouses from Pakistan (in the case of Bangla Deshis, the figure is about 60%), despite the fact that there is a very large pool of potentially suitable British Pakistani partners to choose from. However, at least one of the partners is likely to have been born and raised here and should have a very good standard of English. I don't think it is churlish to raise the issue as to why so many people with origins in the Indian sub-continent still seek their partners from this source, unless of course they wish to insulate and isolate themselves from the cultural influences of the host community.


This is a really complex issue which cannot possible be given a short sharp explanation. Certainly from a Pakistani perspective, what you have to understand is that 99.5% (or certainly a v v high percentage) of Asians in this country who have a background from Pakistan tend to 'originate' from one particular area called Mirpur. There is a joke in Pakistan that Mirpur is empty because they have all moved over to the UK !

This group of people have a long practice of marrying into their family networks (endogamy) in order to strengthen their family ties etc.

Ofcourse recently there has been a push to highlite how inter marriages can result in disabled children etc, but another side of the argument is that where these practices have been going on for Generations the end result can be that the bad genetics can actually be removed from the overall gene pool.

Nonetheless my personal view is that if they want to marry their cousins, its their choice but they SHOULD make use of the latest advances in science and check to see whether the bride and groom both carry genes which could result in problems for their children.

There is definately some truth to the saying that with age we become like our fathers (and become more conservative) and that has a factor to play.

We want to keep our language and traditions going, so many see the solution as marrying from their ancestral homes in order to keep this going.

The problem however is that some these marriages ( there are no hard statistics) result in incompatability to communicate! (Different first languages, different expectations, differing views)

Personally I think that in another generation or so this practice will dimish, however what I will say is that its absolutely no business of ANYONE else to question whom I marry and where I marry from !

This is a really complex issue which cannot possible be given a short sharp explanation. Certainly from a Pakistani perspective, what you have to understand is that 99.5% (or certainly a v v high percentage) of Asians in this country who have a background from Pakistan tend to 'originate' from one particular area called Mirpur. There is a joke in Pakistan that Mirpur is empty because they have all moved over to the UK !

This group of people have a long practice of marrying into their family networks (endogamy) in order to strengthen their family ties etc.

Ofcourse recently there has been a push to highlite how inter marriages can result in disabled children etc, but another side of the argument is that where these practices have been going on for Generations the end result can be that the bad genetics can actually be removed from the overall gene pool.

Nonetheless my personal view is that if they want to marry their cousins, its their choice but they SHOULD make use of the latest advances in science and check to see whether the bride and groom both carry genes which could result in problems for their children.

There is definately some truth to the saying that with age we become like our fathers (and become more conservative) and that has a factor to play.

We want to keep our language and traditions going, so many see the solution as marrying from their ancestral homes in order to keep this going.

The problem however is that some these marriages ( there are no hard statistics) result in incompatability to communicate! (Different first languages, different expectations, differing views)

Personally I think that in another generation or so this practice will dimish, however what I will say is that its absolutely no business of ANYONE else to question whom I marry and where I marry from !


Unless of course the raison d'etre has an illegal basis in which case that is an entirely different matter, dont you think

Unless of course the raison d'etre has an illegal basis in which case that is an entirely different matter, dont you think

Would you care to give some examples ?

This is a really complex issue which cannot possible be given a short sharp explanation. Certainly from a Pakistani perspective, what you have to understand is that 99.5% (or certainly a v v high percentage) of Asians in this country who have a background from Pakistan tend to 'originate' from one particular area called Mirpur. There is a joke in Pakistan that Mirpur is empty because they have all moved over to the UK !

This group of people have a long practice of marrying into their family networks (endogamy) in order to strengthen their family ties etc.

Ofcourse recently there has been a push to highlite how inter marriages can result in disabled children etc, but another side of the argument is that where these practices have been going on for Generations the end result can be that the bad genetics can actually be removed from the overall gene pool.

Nonetheless my personal view is that if they want to marry their cousins, its their choice but they SHOULD make use of the latest advances in science and check to see whether the bride and groom both carry genes which could result in problems for their children.

There is definately some truth to the saying that with age we become like our fathers (and become more conservative) and that has a factor to play.

We want to keep our language and traditions going, so many see the solution as marrying from their ancestral homes in order to keep this going.

The problem however is that some these marriages ( there are no hard statistics) result in incompatability to communicate! (Different first languages, different expectations, differing views)

Personally I think that in another generation or so this practice will dimish, however what I will say is that its absolutely no business of ANYONE else to question whom I marry and where I marry from !

Thank you Zafar for your interesting and informative posts. It is a pity that there are not more people from your background posting on the forum, as then we could have
a wider dialogue on these issues of mutual concern.

As for the practice diminishing, I can see no signs of it yet. The latest Home Office figures I have seen, which appear to be based on the 2001 census, show that transcontinental marriages within the British Pakistani community are still running at around 60%. This trend is markedly different from any previous pattern of migration to these shores, where the migrants have been more or less fully assimilated within one generation. It is also markedly different from the historical pattern of migration into the US.

I think there are probably at least four principal reasons for the remarkable continuation of the practice into the third or fourth generation of settlement here. Firstly, the culturally determined tenacity of the bonds of family life in the Indian sub-continent (which partly explains the prevalence of within extended family marriages etc); secondly, the abandonment of assimilationist doctrines of migration in the UK in favour of the (in my view) divisive and pernicious doctrines of 'multiculturalism'; thirdly, the size and geographical concentration of the migrant communities, which has enabled them to maintain their indigenous cultures more or less intact; and fourthly, the economic benefits of seeking spouses abroad (what better dowry could a family offer - or be offered - than virtually automatic entry into the UK for the intended spouse?).

As for your comment about it being no one else's business who you marry or where your partner is from, well at first sight this sounds eminently reasonable and indisputable. If the practice of which we speak was small in scale and consequence, it would indeed be so. However, given the sheer scale of the practice, it does have consequences for the wider society, so in this sense it is our business. In fact Blunkett, when Home Secretary did raise the issue as to whether it would be better for the wider society if the practice were to be diminished. Denmark has quite recently introduced a law to discourage it, on the grounds that it had a negative effect on the prospects for successful integration of recent migrants. I think the issue is worthy of more discussion than it is receiving. The fact that it is hardly ever mentioned is probably due to our fear of treading into a sensitive area which is bound to raise hackles in some quarters.

English, Punjabi, Urdu and Er American :)


English
Urdu (and I can write and read this fluently)
Punjabi
and various other accents of Yorkshire

Hey isnt 'ER American' a show in channel 4??



I think you are right in saying that young Asian people who were raised in Britain and taught another language as a child, Nevertheless tend to speak English more frequently.
They find it easier and may not feel confident in their grasp of urdu/punjabi or what ever else they may speak.

My parents are both second generation immigrants to this country. I find it remarkable that a person will base their choice of marriage partner or their poor grasp of their native language. Is this true??


Also Timo!
I don't think I have yet come across a parent of any Ethnic group who has NOT wanted to encourage their child to learn English or prevented them from doing so whilst living here. (I work for the Education department). Surely every parent wants the best Education/opportunity for their child?
Even if their own level of English may be poor, But I don't think this is neccessarily a factor only for Ethnic parents!?.

Are you basing your views on any empirical evidence Timo?

As for the practice diminishing, I can see no signs of it yet. The latest Home Office figures I have seen, which appear to be based on the 2001 census, show that transcontinental marriages within the British Pakistani community are still running at around 60%. This trend is markedly different from any previous pattern of migration to these shores, where the migrants have been more or less fully assimilated within one generation. It is also markedly different from the historical pattern of migration into the US.

I'm not disputing statistics, but from my personal experience what I can tell you is that more and more of these marriages are not working out. I imagine the divorce statistics are not contained in the cencus.
Some tend to collapse within a short period of time, others collapse over alonger period. Ofcourse I cant provide imperical evidence of why the marriages are not working out other than my personal views which I've given.


I think there are probably at least four principal reasons for the remarkable continuation of the practice into the third or fourth generation of settlement here. Firstly, the culturally determined tenacity of the bonds of family life in the Indian sub-continent (which partly explains the prevalence of within extended family marriages etc); secondly, the abandonment of assimilationist doctrines of migration in the UK in favour of the (in my view) divisive and pernicious doctrines of 'multiculturalism'; thirdly, the size and geographical concentration of the migrant communities, which has enabled them to maintain their indigenous cultures more or less intact; and fourthly, the economic benefits of seeking spouses abroad (what better dowry could a family offer - or be offered - than virtually automatic entry into the UK for the intended spouse?).

Whilst I could possibly agree with your first point, I totally disagree with your second point. I was born in 1970, and from that time up until the doctrines of multiculturalism came along, I dont remember ANY assimilationist doctrines, never mind them being abandoned for multiculturalism. In many ways first and second generation asians like myself were made to feel like outsiders. The number of times I heard derogatory terms like 'Paki' etc I have lost count of.
I'm not for or against multiculturalism, but I do feel that its often blamed for certain woes in our society, yet those doing the complaining generally have no idea of the experience in terms of abuse and attacks that minorities experienced during the 70's/80's.

Dont get me wrong, I dont necessarily buy the idea of multiculturalism, but what I will say is that one of the positives I can draw from it is the fact that children at an early age are becoming aware of other people's celebrations such as Diwali, Eid etc. This NEVER happened when I was going through the schooling system.

Perhaps our tolerance has increased as we have all got wealthier during the course of the 90's, and it has nothing to do with multiculturalism.

In regards to the size and concentration, again from a concentration perspective, all immigrants tend to congregate together (for the numerous reasons which apply to all immigrants). Insofar as the size, I've no emperical evidence of numbers, however what I will say is that having been to the British Embassy in Islamabad I was taken aback as to how full it was. (I was also taken aback that being British meant v little in terms of the service I got at the Embassy, but perhaps its just indicative of the poor service we get for our taxes). I suppose the size issue is linked with the idea that we have far too many people's on our shores. In which case its interesting to note that in Britain compared to our neighbouring European countries we have more Green land available to use but we cant use it (for various reasons).


As for your comment about it being no one else's business who you marry or where your partner is from, well at first sight this sounds eminently reasonable and indisputable. If the practice of which we speak was small in scale and consequence, it would indeed be so. However, given the sheer scale of the practice, it does have consequences for the wider society, so in this sense it is our business. In fact Blunkett, when Home Secretary did raise the issue as to whether it would be better for the wider society if the practice were to be diminished. Denmark has quite recently introduced a law to discourage it, on the grounds that it had a negative effect on the prospects for successful integration of recent migrants. I think the issue is worthy of more discussion than it is receiving. The fact that it is hardly ever mentioned is probably due to our fear of treading into a sensitive area which is bound to cause raise hackles in some quarters.

Again, I think over the last several years, immigration and asylum seekers are being intertwined, when infact the two should be treated as totally seperate issues.
I'm not sure about your view that if a practice is small in scale and consequence then its okay. I repeat that me exercising my rights to choose whom I marry is a fundamental human right I'm entitled to exercise. Personally I have very little respect nor time for David Blunkett and in recent years I've heard very little uttered from this man that makes any sense.
This argument of integration is just a red herring for the real problem people appear to have vis a vi Asylum Seekers.

I've even heard 2nd and 3rd generation Asians having digs at say Somali's and Kurds, and how did they manage to get here, and how come they are driving around in hire cars etc.

However my simple response is that if they were allowed to enter legally, then its an issue we should take up with our elected representatives in a manner that doesn't come across as racist. Whilst on this theme, perhaps its time we held our politicians more accountable for their foreign policy, which in several cases is directly linked with influxes of assylum seekers.

ALL the asians that I know in my generation are as integrated as they can be.

To prove my point, a simple test would be to ask the first generation of immigrants what they think. You'll find in the vast majority of cases that they think their children have all become TOO westernised.

lol, My Mother STILL after all these years cant understand why me and my Brother support Liverpool FC !

I learnt French & German at school,but it was a long time ago and I cant remember any of it.Was reading that people who can speak another language,apart from their own,have less chance of developing Alzeimers.Dont know why this is,but its true.I would like to learn a foreign language,but does anyone know what the easiest one to learn is ?:huh:

spanish and italian are meant to be pretty easy to pick up conversationally, esperanto is very easy indeed.

I speak Swedish, and I wouldn't recommend it as it's quite difficult to learn.

I think English is the easiest language in the world to learn, by far.

Hey isnt 'ER American' a show in channel 4??
[

I think its just ER :) unless they've started a franchise off where we're going to see ER Britain, ER Iraq etc.



I think you are right in saying that young Asian people who were raised in Britain and taught another language as a child, Nevertheless tend to speak English more frequently.
They find it easier and may not feel confident in their grasp of urdu/punjabi or what ever else they may speak.

My parents are both second generation immigrants to this country. I find it remarkable that a person will base their choice of marriage partner or their poor grasp of their native language. Is this true??


Its true, but there are always circumstances...
For instance in mine, my Father passed away 10 years ago and my Mother placed some serious 'psychological' pressure on me to get married from Pakistan. In the end I succombed...

I had seen loads of my friends have marriages where they thought they were in Love, only for things to end in divorce so I took a pragmatic decision in order to perpetuate my 'Y' chromosome :)

In the end I've got two gorgeous boys who make it all worthwhile.

Less Shararti, more sensability :)

I think English is the easiest language in the world to learn, by far.

The guitar is the easiest instrument to learn to play badly, but one of the hardest to learn to play well. The same might be said of the English language.

I dont remember ANY assimilationist doctrines, never mind them being abandoned for multiculturalism.

Thank you Zafar for another very interesting and informative post. I would like to explain what I meant in relation to the above. I used the word doctrine deliberately, because 'assimilationism' amounted to a set of ideas and assumptions rather than to a concrete and coherent policy. When Asian immigrants began to arrive in the UK in large numbers in the 1950s and 60s, a widely held view amongst the proponents of immigration was that the new arrivals would be fully integrated and assimilated into British society and culture within a generation. There was also some evidence that this might be the case. For example, the majority of the new arrivals were keen to place their children in ordinary British schools rather than seeking to establish separate schools and the like. Strange as it may seem to us now, in this period many muslim parents did not even exercise their right to withdraw their children from school assemblies, which at the time had an overtly Christian ethos. It was also commonly assumed that the birth rates of the new arrivals would within a generation fall to the levels of the indigenous population. Another assumption was that as the second generation took advantage of educational and career opportunities, they would become subject to a process of embourgoisement and (inevitably) 'Westernisation'. If you read speeches in defence of immigration at this time, I think you will find that this was the contemporary conventional wisdom. Contrary voices, predicting that this would not happen due to the resilience and tenacity of the cultures of the Indian sub-continent, were either ignored or shouted down and even vilified.

Assimilationist doctrines were based on the assumption that this would happen naturally, so that concrete policies were not needed. 'Multiculturalism', by contrast, is both a doctrine and a policy (and in my view a malign one). It probably has its modern roots in the British context in the early 1970s, when the semi-separatist beliefs of ideologues such as Bhikhu Parekh gained ground (Parekh rejected the idea that new immigrants needed to become British in any meaningful, or commonly understood, sense and as far as I can gather his vision of Britain amounts to reducing the country to a geographical expression in which separate communities interact within the minimum of common or communal bonds). The multiculturalist assault on our society is an example of 'institutional capture' (where an idea quickly becomes an ideological and institutional orthodoxy). It has indeed been entrenched for a long time (which is why you may not remember discussion of the alternatives) but it was certainly not the only policy option with regard to the integration of immigrant communities.

As well as speeking the Inglish:
I'm fluent in Arabic.
I can count numbers in French, German, Italian and Russian
I can say greetings in Somali, Russian and Urdu
I know all the Japanese I need to get by
I can curse in Urdu, Hebrew, French, German and Italian (should come in handy if I join in one of those anti-globalisation riots)

You should not need all this. They must be told to learn our tongue.
And as an Englishman just stand to one side while they continue their silly talk and fighting

Its a shame this thread has been hijacked by those with a particular agenda.

But I'll stay on topic.

Used to know a lot of Swahili, forgotten most of it, but if I went to East Africa I'm sure I could make myself understood in most situations.

Did French GCSE and failed, but learnt enough to get by whilst visiting France.

And Tok Pisin, Pigeon English is one of the easiest languages to learn. I can almost read and understand (Listen to) it fluently. I thought most people would be able to, but my housemate can't make head or tail of it.

It's quite a shame that's how you feel. Though I was quite enjoying that discussion myself. :) It'll be nice if there is a new thread based on those posts. 'Multi-culturalism and languages' or something like that...

Just to reply to Timo's comment. Not all immigrants had an education. I know my mom was one of those people that were not allowed an education based on her gender. Many ethnic groups will teach their children their mother tongue when at home, in order not to become 'too westernised' and lose part of their own culture. (My mother still thinks I'm a lost cause too, even though I'm educated and is independent by Western standards. I think she would've disowned me if I cannot even converse with her in Cantonese. My standard is probably only of that of an 8 year old or other.)

Yes, being the thread starter, it did get a bit deep at times. But anyway,I got my first French Phrase book today and :

Malheureusement je ne parle pas bien le francais .!:hihi:

But Im getting there.:thumbsup:

S'agapo yinneka mou!

Efharisto poli :blush:

Would you care to give some examples ?


After 9/11 and 7/7 I'm surprised you even asked and no I dont care to comment further because it is not relevant to the thread.

I speak Spanish and I would recommend it if you want to learn another language. There are lots of classes available and a great way to learn is to buy yourself a cartoon video or a spanish film (a film you like in English and can try and follow in Spanish).

Re the cartoons - the animated voices are usually very clear and because they're cartoons aimed at youngsters, the vocabulary is usually simple stuff which is what you need when you're a beginner. Listening even when you don't understand, helps you to develop an ear for the pronunciation.

If you have access to Spanish TV its even better. Another good thing to listen to is the news - not necessarily for the actual news but newsreaders have to speak with clarity and so thats another good type of person to listen to for learning pronunciation. Cookery programmes are also fun as you will try and guess what they're saying, again learning the pronunciation of words without even realising it.

Best of all, its loads of fun learning another language so don't be afraid of 'making a fool of yourself' as so many people are. The ones that progress are those that get it wrong but carry on anyway. I still make plenty of mistakes even though I'm fairly fluent in spoken and written Spanish, but I just ask to be corrected when I'm wrong, then I laugh about it and remember for next time.
Have fun!!

me I speak a smattering of several languages Arabic, English, American, French, German, Dutch etc

me I speak a smattering of several languages Arabic, English, American, French, German, Dutch etc

hope this doesn't sound too stupid, but isn't english and american the same language.

hope this doesn't sound too stupid, but isn't english and american the same language.
Definitely not if you've lived there; they've got so many different terms for things that I arent understood over here.

I was considering trying to learn Japanese but haven't got around to it yet. It's on my to-do list. ;)

Definitely not if you've lived there; they've got so many different terms for things that I arent understood over here.

I suppose thats why when eastenders was first broadcast in America, they had to produce a little book to translate some of the words used in the show.

Definitely not if you've lived there; they've got so many different terms for things that I arent understood over here.

Strangely, when I crossed the Atlantic for the first time, I discovered that I must have imbibed the language somewhere on the way, as I could communicate perfectly with the inhabitants of the land of the free without need of a translator. Perhaps Chomsky could find a rational explanation for it.

I used to live there and had no problems in understanding what they had to say or in making myself understood. I have never met an American who claims to speak 'American'. They are very well aware that the language they are speaking is English. American English is English - ditto Australian, Irish etc.

I speak French and English fluently, Spanish nearly fluently, a bit of German and a tiny bit of Basque.
I'd recommend learning French (because it's my native tongue :hihi: ) and Spanish because it's fairly easy.
I personally don't think English is the easiest language to learn. There are still a few words I just cannot pronounce correctly. E.g: I say "colour" and "collar" exactly the same way.
I think languages are great and can't wait to have kids. They'll learn French with me and Yorkshire English with my husband :D

Ispeak swhahely, french, siberian tree , and english, not bad for a kid of atterercliffe eh?

I have never met an American who claims to speak 'American'. They are very well aware that the language they are speaking is English. American English is English - ditto Australian, Irish etc.

That may be the case. However, when American English literature is translated into German, there appears the comment on the cover "Aus dem Amerikanischen von ..." (translated from American by ....)

So there seems to be a differentiation between English and American in the written language when seen from a non-English speaking perspective.