"There's a lot of celebration of English culture (as in traditional, i n the sense that St George's day should represent) everywhere, it's just sad that mainstream culture has rejected it in favour of football hooliganism and clubbing. Anyway, I'm going to start a thread on it now!"

I just posted that on another thread. Anyway I was wondering what you all thought about this? i'm actively involved in traditional music and dance in Sheffield as well as across the country, and I am amazed at the lack of tolerance, and rejection, of the history of our country. Other countries (name me just about any other European country, among others) embrace their traditional music, song, dance, etc, and the English just reject it and even mock it. Anyway...comments?

Are we having a forum Maypole dance ? :P

Terry Wogan has much to answer for

Weve been taught to be ashamed of our culture and to express any interest in it is akin to some kind of evil racist nationalism.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
"There's a lot of celebration of English culture (as in traditional, i n the sense that St George's day should represent) everywhere, it's just sad that mainstream culture has rejected it in favour of football hooliganism and clubbing. Anyway, I'm going to start a thread on it now!"

I just posted that on another thread. Anyway I was wondering what you all thought about this? i'm actively involved in traditional music and dance in Sheffield as well as across the country, and I am amazed at the lack of tolerance, and rejection, of the history of our country. Other countries (name me just about any other European country, among others) embrace their traditional music, song, dance, etc, and the English just reject it and even mock it. Anyway...comments?

I'm interested in all things English. Which parts of Englishness and our traditions, culture and history in particular are rejected and by whom?

This is one that always puzzles me.

On one hand we are actively encouraged to embrace racial and cultural integration to the extent that in the process we risk our own customs being watered down or lost. Any positive attempt to promote our own culture will be met by cries of 'racist' and therefore seen as uncool.

Whereas, other races entering our country are actively encouraged to cling on to their culture at all costs, so much so in my opinion that it inhibits real integtration.

I have complained about this before. It is damned annoying that our kids can learn about everyone elses culture but their own.

Then we get people saying that the UK has no culture of it's own, that we are a mongrel nation. The fact is we have assimilated everything we have ever come in contact with and made it ours - we are the borg resistence is futile! *ahem* sorry.

There is a large proportion of the population that love British heritage and all things English - we just have to be quiet about it should political correct police arrest or sue us for being intolerant towards every bugger else.

Moon

Originally posted by max
I'm interested in all things English. Which parts of Englishness and our traditions, culture and history in particular are rejected and by whom?

The Enid Blyton books were altered to suit the sensetivities of other races,these are books that generations grew up reading.

The gollywogs taken off the golden shred jars,did anyone actually manage to collect the full set of instrument players.

When my kids come home from school with things they have made to represent religious festivals from other countries and races,i am pleased they are learning such things. This is then cancelled out by the refusal of the parents of the kids from other races/religions to allow them to take part in ours(easter/christmas etc)

we are being forced to accept others beliefs and way of life with open arms while having our own identity watered down.

try hoisting the george cross in your garden and see how long it is before someone finds it racially offensive and makes you take it down.
i freely accept everyones right to be who or what they want to be,
as long as the small print to them doing so doesnt include a clause preventing me from doing the same in case it offends them

We've been here before with the British Red Cross issue. Something about them not being allowed to sell Christmas cards in their shops, and an inclination the remove the red cross logo altogether cos it is OFFENSIVE to non Christians.

Imagine therefore a Christian in a Muslim country having the audacity to complain that the CRESCENT is offending them, and could it be removed please?

Then again, is it these other cultures who are trying to enforce our loss of identity, or do-gooding Christians who are doing it in the mistaken belief that this is what the Muslims want?

Originally posted by max
I'm interested in all things English. Which parts of Englishness and our traditions, culture and history in particular are rejected and by whom?

For example, I just found this: that I wrote a few years ago (so forgive the juvenility of the writing style) for a local folk music magazine. It came from the heart, and I really still believe the same thing. Ok, so you may laugh at folk music (not YOU, but you in the general sense) and dance, but to laugh at it is to laugh at your own ancestors.

I have never, ever been accused of being racist in terms of keep the traditions alive, and (for me, anyway) that is certainly not the issue. The issue is that British folk music is not taught in schools whereas, for example, Italian classical and American jazz are. I'm not condoning the teaching of music from other cultures, in fact I play Swedish, French, American appalachian, Bulgarian(the list goes on)music myself. I'm just eternally mystified by the complete (for want of a better word, believe me!) ignorance in Britain...no, strike that, ENGLAND, of the traditons that their own ancestors created.

But, you know, if they'd rather listen to 'DJ Faceless feat. Random Blonde', let them.

PS- I really hope noone takes any of this in the wrong way, I just get really stressed about this!

A lady came into my shop today who does folk dancing - Mr Fox on Langsett??

Very nice lady wonderful conversation and I have foudn a whole new area of Sheffield Folk scene I didn't even know existed!

Anyways - conversation has led to me considering hoisting a large English flag above me shop door for St. Georges Day - 23rd April!!!!

Moon

Careful not to offend now MM!!!:nono:

We are not allowed to celebrate our history it's not politicaly allowed anymore.
Please dont offend our masters by loving your culture and country it's just not aceptable anymore.

I'm involved with the proposed Sheffield Folk Festival (due to happen later this year hopefully!) and as part of that I want to try and collect together some of Sheffield's traditions, in song, stories and dance. I don't know quite how I'm going to do it yet, but I know that there's a wealth of tradition out there, and there's a lot to be found in and around Sheffield and South Yorkshire because we seem to be good at stuff like that, despite the fact that we all try and pretend that we're not! Just think of all the songs you used to sing at school, or that your parents, or grandparents used to sing to you, or games you used to play, old stories that people have told you - its all part of our heritage, and I think we should shouting louder about it before the memories disappear completely!
Spiky

p.s. if anyone's got any thoughts concerning Sheffield traditions, knows any old local songs, stories about music and dancing etc. in Shefifeld, can you let me know, please!!!! Ta!

p.p.s. one thing that made me really happy last year was hearing about the carolling tradition that they still uphold at the north side of the city - out towards Stocksbridge - where for a couple of weeks before Christmas lots of people, mostly men, get together in various pubs and practice traditional christmas songs, and then on Christmas Day/Boxing Day they go from farm to farm round the area as a group, stopping at each one for a sherry and a sing. Fantastic!!! Long may it last. (-:

It's true that we have many cultures thrust upon us which we are expected to embrace and learn about or else be labelled ignorant racists, while at the same time the people from other cultures do little to learn about the culture of England. It is also true that openly displaying pride in our country is seen as racist nationalism. I don't blame the people from other cultures as I don't think they give a damn if they see Christmas cards or English people being proud of England... I blame the PC brigade.... the very ones who will flame me down for this post. The do-gooder, busy bodies who are ruining this country.

A lot of good points made here. The Union Flag - symbol of Britain or the BNP?

There's a lot about our history that we shouldn't be proud of, but probably a lot we should too.

Thanks Moon for reminding me what day St George's Day is. I'll be celebrating St Pat's on Wednesday (any excuse!) but had forgotten that we have a patron saint of our own country.

Originally posted by max
I'm interested in all things English. Which parts of Englishness and our traditions, culture and history in particular are rejected and by whom?

Didn't you know Max - it is now illegal to express Englishness in any form due to the 'incitement to racial haterd' laws :)

To be honest, I think that the English, more so than the British, have successfully exported their culture and beliefs to about 3 quarters of the world, and their language to all of it.

England's gift to the world is English - a fantastically versatile and well stocked language with a looseness of syntax and grammar that enables it to be learnt within about 20 minutes to a sufficient degree to be understood.

Ironically enough, English is the lingua franca of the world.

And this substrate of English language means that ideas and expressions of Englishness and English culture can permeate the globe through anglophone channels in a matter of minutes. Music - news media - literature - digital content - art, all English and all over the planet.
The Americans have done much to pay for this.

So when we look to other cultures, languages and so on, it is to look outside the sea of Englishness in which the world swims. Despite the mounting prima facie evidence, England is still a country of the open minded and the xenophilic (forgive the neologism, but its a logical reflection of xenophobic) with a strong internationalist outlook and hence a much stronger interest in exoculture than a nation struggling to establish itself. It is a measure of how secure the English are in their identity that they do not feel the need to constantly reinforce it with ritual and tradition IMO.

Well said Phan..............I think:confused:

Wow! I agree with the bits of that I understood :~). Thanks.

Originally posted by t020
It's true that we have many cultures thrust upon us which we are expected to embrace and learn about or else be labelled ignorant racists, while at the same time the people from other cultures do little to learn about the culture of England. It is also true that openly displaying pride in our country is seen as racist nationalism. I don't blame the people from other cultures as I don't think they give a damn if they see Christmas cards or English people being proud of England... I blame the PC brigade.... the very ones who will flame me down for this post. The do-gooder, busy bodies who are ruining this country.

And people who don't live in Eccleshall :D

Everyone gets a different perspective on English culture. I'm certainly proud of being English, but Christian traditions and customs don't mean a lot to me. But then people in England were English long before they were Christian.
And St George was from Syria or Palestine, and was just bound up with the myths and legends of a pagan England.

I think that too many people try to see it as polar issues... ie, black and white!

Intolerance of reasonable behaviour, whichever side it is on, is the real hate crime. Unfortunately, too many people see it as us -v- them.

Originally posted by oxbeast
Everyone gets a different perspective on English culture. I'm certainly proud of being English, but Christian traditions and customs don't mean a lot to me. But then people in England were English long before they were Christian.
And St George was from Syria or Palestine, and was just bound up with the myths and legends of a pagan England.

You just be careful there quoting wots pagan ;)

Been here before but many of the 'christian' traditions are in fact pagan in origin.

Apart from giving English to the world we also gave Witchcraft - a fact I am very very proud of!!

Will be extremely interested to hear about this folk festival Little Spikey and if you want somewhere to put up posters or flyers give me a shout and I can hand em round Sheffield's pagan community. It may not harm you to contact some of them either as one of the main interests is History and British traditions.

Moon

Originally posted by markham
Careful not to offend now MM!!!:nono:

Tis what I do best :D

Little Spikey

Go on http://www.shef.ac.uk/english/natcect/

Granma

Rich

THERE'S NO 'H' IN ECCLESALL

Granma

Originally posted by Granma
Rich

THERE'S NO 'H' IN ECCLESALL

Granma

No offense Granma but you aren't by any chance related to t020?! He's our resident nitwit, thinks anyone who doesn't live in Ecclesall isn't worth spitting on.

No offence, Rich.
I'm not related to t020
but it bugs me (or whatever is the current word) when an 'h' is added - usually by Southerners.
Granma.

There's no H in Ecclesall,
and there's no F in point..................:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
You just be careful there quoting wots pagan ;)

Been here before but many of the 'christian' traditions are in fact pagan in origin.

Apart from giving English to the world we also gave Witchcraft - a fact I am very very proud of!!

Will be extremely interested to hear about this folk festival Little Spikey and if you want somewhere to put up posters or flyers give me a shout and I can hand em round Sheffield's pagan community. It may not harm you to contact some of them either as one of the main interests is History and British traditions.

Moon

I always thought Witchcraft originated in Salem, Massachussets (Dunno how you spell that), you know... Salem Witch Trials and all that?

And no, I don't mean the talking cat on Sabrina the Teenage Witch :P

Originally posted by Rich
No offense Granma but you aren't by any chance related to t020?! He's our resident nitwit, thinks anyone who doesn't live in Ecclesall isn't worth spitting on.


Not true. Stop spouting rubbish. Its funny how anyone can be proud of where they live so long as its a council estate with 'community spirit' (e.g. barbecues in wheely bins, bonfires on cars, etc).

PS. It seems that I'm not the one obsessed with Ecclesall from where I'm standing. In virtually every thread, no matter how unrelated, some smart arse imbecile brings the subject up in a sarcastic and idiotic way.

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
A lady came into my shop today who does folk dancing - Mr Fox on Langsett??

Very nice lady wonderful conversation and I have foudn a whole new area of Sheffield Folk scene I didn't even know existed!

Anyways - conversation has led to me considering hoisting a large English flag above me shop door for St. Georges Day - 23rd April!!!!

Moon

Moon maiden! You in big trouble! She's in big trouble! Was she by any chance called Sarah? It's supposed to be a secret...sort of...it all seems a bit sinister if you don't know what we're about...but we have a right laugh. Anyway...I'm not involved, oh no....;)

Originally posted by little spiky
I'm involved with the proposed Sheffield Folk Festival (due to happen later this year hopefully!) and as part of that I want to try and collect together some of Sheffield's traditions, in song, stories and dance. I don't know quite how I'm going to do it yet, but I know that there's a wealth of tradition out there, and there's a lot to be found in and around Sheffield and South Yorkshire because we seem to be good at stuff like that, despite the fact that we all try and pretend that we're not! Just think of all the songs you used to sing at school, or that your parents, or grandparents used to sing to you, or games you used to play, old stories that people have told you - its all part of our heritage, and I think we should shouting louder about it before the memories disappear completely!
Spiky

p.s. if anyone's got any thoughts concerning Sheffield traditions, knows any old local songs, stories about music and dancing etc. in Shefifeld, can you let me know, please!!!! Ta!

Hiya, maybe you should start a new thread on this. Are we S.C.Giants doing it? Cos I Haven't got a bleddy clue!

Oh and the carols are getting really famous now! People come from long ways away for them.

P.S. Phoenix folk club this Thursday at the Blind Institute just off West Street. Headlining this month: Tim van Eyken (v. good!) and open mike night. You have been warned :s!

Originally posted by Rich
I always thought Witchcraft originated in Salem, Massachussets (Dunno how you spell that), you know... Salem Witch Trials and all that?

And no, I don't mean the talking cat on Sabrina the Teenage Witch :P

You do realise that on some forums you would be shot for remarks like that ;) :P :D

Try and think logically on this one - where did the settlers in america come from?? And which country would not participate in the trials to the extent of it's neighbouring countries and managed to get itself excommunicated..again by the catholic church for it?

Did you know that whilst Britiain has few poisonous animals we are rife with poisonous plants? To learn herb and plant lore wasn't just a novel pastime it was a survival skill and a very lucretive one at that!

Sorry bout that folk scene slip up there. I do believe she was called Sarah I have promised to try and get the folk clubs website on the Sheffield links - should I not do that now :)

Moon

hehehe...no it's only the elusive C.J. Fox that's 'secret' (just a bit of an in-thing??) But please feel free to plug the folk club. It's open mike so I might do a spot! (And if that's not an incentive...)

If anyone wants to find out about the folk scene in and around Sheffield, post it on this thread or PM me and I'll try and help! there's a lot of cool stuff going on.

Fancy a spot of Morris dancing, then T020?

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Other countries (name me just about any other European country, among others) embrace their traditional music, song, dance, etc, and the English just reject it and even mock it. Anyway...comments?

It would be a mistake to think that the situation here is particularly different from most other countries. I was in Spain recently (staying with locals, and not in a tourist destination), and the people I was with thought flamenco was pretty naff on the whole. They did have time for some of it, and it was certainly appropriated by some of the contemporary Spanish music they were into. Just like folk music is here, and country is in the USA.

All of you bemoaning the death of English culture are only looking at it from a pretty narrow point of view. If English culture for you is represented by dancing round a maypole or flying a flag in your garden or dreaming about when it was all white faces and spotted dick round here, then maybe it is dying and, and maybe that's not such a shame. But if English culture means justice, democracy, tolerance, fair mindedness etc, then we're probably doing alright by global standards. Okay, apart from the obvious exceptions.

Originally posted by MichaelTravis
If English culture for you is represented by dancing round a maypole or flying a flag in your garden or dreaming about when it was all white faces and spotted dick round here, then maybe it is dying and, and maybe that's not such a shame. But if English culture means justice, democracy, tolerance, fair mindedness etc, then we're probably doing alright by global standards. Okay, apart from the obvious exceptions. I'm shocked by the indications that people who celebrate traditional culture are in some way racist, really shocked and quite upset to be honest. Folk festivals in England have English(e.g Kate Rusby band), Irish (e.g. Flook), Scottish (e.g. Croft No Five), Welsh (e.g. Julie Murphy), French (e.g. La Bottine Souriante), Canadian (e.g. Horace X), Hawaiian (e.g. Bluebirds), Danish (e.g. Hagaard and Hoirup) acts.....the list goes on. My point is that by celebrating your own traditions you are in no way saying that your country is better than any other, but more that it is part of what you are, and that you should be proud of it.

PS-it's pretty naff, ok, I'll give you that, but did you know that Maypole dancing is really phallic, and intended to be? It's done in May to celebrate fertility in spring, and the pole...well...

Just wondering if our 'wonderful city council' will be erecting a beer tent on fargate for ST.GEORGES DAY' (APRIL 23rd),,,,seeing as though they've done it for st patricks day.
before anyone starts....i'm not a racist...but it really winds me up that we are more or less expected to celebrate everyone elses cultures,except our own !!!

rant over !!

the british culture is a fine thing, our literature is amazing, but, unfortunatly there isnt enough tv programmes etc that reflect this. the bbc have so many channels now, so surely they could include a culture channel so we could see all those lovely 70's shakesperean dramas again and documentries on how the english language developed etc!!!

That's what BBC 4 is there for.

I quite enjoy it, though it does sometimes have really obscure programs on things like the life and lovers of the first Norwegian basoonist to play at Carnegie Hall :rolleyes: :headbang:

There's some good trad stuff on there occasionally, the Radio 2 folk awards were a few weeks back, as was a Kate Rusby concert, a Cara Dillon and the Dublin orchestra, and some documentaries about martin carthy. Now all they need is a Flook concert.

Here's the best recommendation i can give you; if you have a bit of spare cash lying around, buy Rubai by Flook (from Amazon, or I saw it in the folk section in HMV t'other day.) It's amazing. http://www.flook.co.uk

Sorry, been away for a couple of days. Thanks Granma, that's fantastic! (How did I not know that existed??) MM, good idea! How do I get in touch with the Sheffield Pagans? Rosie, I don't know if the SC Giants are part of the fray or not, I suspect you probably are, but I'm not really on the committee, I've just been roped in by some mates who are to do the history bit. I'll let you all know what's happening as I find out though, if that makes sense (-: The folk scene is amazing in Sheffield, it's probably the main reason that I'm still here, (that and the lovely people). There are so many good sessions and folk clubs. I don't think there's anywhere like it. Pheonix sounds like its taking off too, which is great. There aren't enough medium sized gig venues in Sheffield, in fact I'm pushed to think of anywhere really that's bigger than the Grapes, but smaller than the Boardwalk. Have you heard about the nights at the Red Deer too? Sort of sporadic concerts every once in a while, with some quite big names penciled in already. Keep your eye on stirrings, I think they're listed in there!

Originally posted by noseyrosie
I'm shocked by the indications that people who celebrate traditional culture are in some way racist, really shocked and quite upset to be honest. Folk festivals in England have English(e.g Kate Rusby band), Irish (e.g. Flook), Scottish (e.g. Croft No Five), Welsh (e.g. Julie Murphy), French (e.g. La Bottine Souriante), Canadian (e.g. Horace X), Hawaiian (e.g. Bluebirds), Danish (e.g. Hagaard and Hoirup) acts.....the list goes on. My point is that by celebrating your own traditions you are in no way saying that your country is better than any other, but more that it is part of what you are, and that you should be proud of it.

PS-it's pretty naff, ok, I'll give you that, but did you know that Maypole dancing is really phallic, and intended to be? It's done in May to celebrate fertility in spring, and the pole...well...

I didn't mean to insinuate that you are racist, but you have to admit that the people who moan about "our great British culture being eroded" are often pretty dodgy (eg, it's a central tenet of BNP thinking).

Promotion of traditional music etc is a different thing, I understand that. It will always be a minority of people who will be into that kind of thing though, because it's thought of as old fashioned (which, of course, it is!).

Yes, I knew about the maypole being a fertility symbol and all that. Doesn't exactly make it any hipper though, does it ;)

Originally posted by MichaelTravis
Yes, I knew about the maypole being a fertility symbol and all that. Doesn't exactly make it any hipper though, does it ;)

Hehe agree with you there. I just feel embarrassed for the little girls dancing round a giant penis...

Guess who's playing at the Sheffield folk festival? Yours truly. hooray for me! We got asked on the basis of a two set set in a folk club tonight! Weeey.

Wahey Rosie! Nice one! Do you know where?

Originally posted by deanprez
Just wondering if our 'wonderful city council' will be erecting a beer tent on fargate for ST.GEORGES DAY' (APRIL 23rd),,,,seeing as though they've done it for st patricks day.

rant over !!

From what I understand, the tent was actually erected by the Hogs Head pub so the 'wonderful city council' have little to do with it, apart from giving permission.

Originally posted by Fantomas
From what I understand, the tent was actually erected by the Hogs Head pub so the 'wonderful city council' have little to do with it, apart from giving permission.

What a spoilsport, ruining a perfectly good rant by using facts.

It would be nice to see a St Georges day promoted by SCC dont you think though?

Oh aye, I'd support a proper St Georges day celebration thingy. We definitely should make more of it.

As long as it involves wassailing, count me in.

Isn't St Georges day also the Vernal Equinox.

There is a torchlit procession in Sharrow to celebrate.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Isn't St Georges day also the Vernal Equinox.

There is a torchlit procession in Sharrow to celebrate.

The vernal equinox is this Sunday Phan.

I think the main reason St Patricks day goes off with a bang is thanks to guiness. Off course they going to want a celebration!

Which alcohol company do you reckon would sponsor St Georges day?
Wasssailing - now that is something I would love to see in Sheffield.

What is happening with this folk festival anyways?

Moon

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
I think the main reason St Patricks day goes off with a bang is thanks to guiness.

Quite true. I saw an inspired poster at the Red House on Solly Street on Tuesday, inviting people to a celebration of "St. Guinness Day"...

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
Which alcohol company do you reckon would sponsor St Georges day?
Moon

http://www.bombardier.co.uk/stgeorgesday.php You are allowed to call me a smart alec :D

Originally posted by Tony
http://www.bombardier.co.uk/stgeorgesday.php You are allowed to call me a smart alec :D

What does it taste like?? You smart **** :D

Except the petition already been taken to Blair!!

Moon

It's pretty good actually. Try the Devonshire Cat on St Georges Day, they are bound to have loads of St Georges beers.:thumbsup:

Bombardier is luverly. Had a nice couple of pints in the Red Deer on Wednesday.

Ian! it's you! Argh! Look at me with my promoting folkiness.

i think st georges day is becoming more popular with patriotic folk they wont stand for this "PC" rubbish anymore, ive booked the day off work to celebrate there's about 30 of us going out all day and if people think its offensive it's tough!!

its comming to something if you cant fly your own countries flag in your OWN COUNTRY!!!

Don't be so daft. Who has ever stopped you flying your flag? Who think's it's offensive? Sounds like you believe the far right wing propaganda.

Nevertheless, I hope you have a nice St Georges Day. (Don't forget that St George was a black man from Asia). I think it's a great idea to celebrate it.

Didnt you see the papers last year when taxi drivers got fined ( by the council) for having the st georges cross on his licence plate, and was orded to remove it because it was offensive! And another who was fined for flying one during the world cup from his cab!!

No I didn't. I would be interested to see the facts.

The trouble with the people that run this country bend over backwards to accomodate other peoples beliefs and life styles while ours are surpressed.
We can no longer say in public who we can like or dislike, yet the very people we cant talk about can shout their dislikes about us from the roof tops.
Has anyone noticed that we are now British and not English? it seems that the Politicians have turned the word "English" into a dirty word and they apologise for Englands part in the opening up of the worlds uncharted lands. If it was not for the English,Irish Scots and Welsh that travelled this world in search of adventure, the people that decry us would now be in a very sad state of affairs

why would you rather be English than British? England was central to the formation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and we have all been British for many generations.

I believe that racial discrimation and inciting racial hatred or violence is illegal to people belonging to minority groups just the same as people belonging to the majority.

British is descriptive term for anyone coming from the British Isles that means England ,Ireland,Scotland and Wales thats fine in itself but I was born in England so that makes me English!
I dont think its racial to stand up for my nationality,because thats the exact thing that the immigrants do, stand by their beliefs and I have no truck with that only I would like to be able to do the same without some herbert playing his or her racist card.
Racial hatred will always be there you cant bring a law out and hope it will stop it because it wont, racial hatred has always been with us from the start of this so called civilised world and it will still be there when it all ends

dont live in eckleshawl and dont care how it's spelt... Bloody proud to be English tho!

Originally posted by lazarus
British is descriptive term for anyone coming from the British Isles that means England ,Ireland,Scotland and Wales thats fine in itself but I was born in England so that makes me English!
I dont think its racial to stand up for my nationality,because thats the exact thing that the immigrants do, stand by their beliefs and I have no truck with that only I would like to be able to do the same without some herbert playing his or her racist card.
Racial hatred will always be there you cant bring a law out and hope it will stop it because it wont, racial hatred has always been with us from the start of this so called civilised world and it will still be there when it all ends

What is standing up for your nationality?
And as an aside England is not a nation, Britain is.

Racial hatred may have been with us for a long time, and maybe you are right and it will never be eliminated, I hope you are wrong though. And either way, that is not a reason to condone it, which not criminalising it would be doing. As a society we can say that discrimination on any grounds and inciting violence or hatred on any grounds is wrong, and as such we pass a law to lock up people who will not conform to what society wants.

Do you realise that England was once a bunch of seperate warrign counties. Do you call yourself a yorkshireman and hate all those damn mancunians who come over the penines to steal our jobs? Before that counties were made up of city states or tribal lands... do we even remember or have any history going back that far, I don't think so. This proves that as we progress our nations get bigger, eventually we will just be 1 nation, the earth. Who will people hate then, probably the settlers on Mars. But it's progress.

Lordy. Some strong feelings here. In addition to the language, here are some other aspects/ideas of English culture which were succesfully exported around the globe:

Shakespeare
Football
Rugby
Cricket
Tennis
NHS
Jet engine
Punk Rock

I'm sure there are heaps more. I doubt you'll find anyone (PC or otherwise) who is ashamed of the above. Stuff we do that's popular and is enjoyed by the majority will always be bigged-up. Go on, name some things that you are proud of!

I think the problem is less one of the "PC-Brigade" as some of you term it, rather it's the fact that we are a highly sophisticated society, who have bought into the whole postmodern/ironic thing. This means that we cringe at stuff which isn't cool. This takes us so far up our own backsides that we go off around the world in search of some blind innocence that we feel we've lost. And the exotic always seems cooler and more acceptable to postmodern man/woman.

However, some of you may have a point - why look around the world for uncomplicated, honest art when it's going on in one's own backyard.

But I must say that the whole "we're not allowed to fly St Georges flags stuff" is just ******** as far as I'm concerned. Course you are. There is no law against it - what are you on about? Stop whinging!

Zeddy.

Originally posted by lazarus
British is descriptive term for anyone coming from the British Isles that means England ,Ireland,Scotland and Wales thats fine in itself but I was born in England so that makes me English!

Erm actually it has more of a reach than that - at least I hope it does otherwise I ain't British :(

Moon

Well said e-man. I can't ever recall being told that i must repress the fact that i'm bristish. I think people are going over the top a little here. the stories about people not being allowed to fly a st georges cross, if true, are rare cases not the norm. If you want to celebrate being british or english or whatever, feel free, i'm sure you'll be fine.
In reply to lazarus, I wouldn't worry too much about losing your english identity and becoming britsish, as i doubt that any of us can really prove that our family tree has always been rooted in english soil. This country has been very mixed up for a long time. I know for a fact that my family history comes from Ireland and New Zealand. I'm still classed as british though. So i wouldn't get too stressed about your english history while it may not truely be your history.

Originally posted by Cyclone
What is standing up for your nationality?
And as an aside England is not a nation, Britain is.

Racial hatred may have been with us for a long time, and maybe you are right and it will never be eliminated, I hope you are wrong though. And either way, that is not a reason to condone it, which not criminalising it would be doing. As a society we can say that discrimination on any grounds and inciting violence or hatred on any grounds is wrong, and as such we pass a law to lock up people who will not conform to what society wants.

Do you realise that England was once a bunch of seperate warrign counties. Do you call yourself a yorkshireman and hate all those damn mancunians who come over the penines to steal our jobs? Before that counties were made up of city states or tribal lands... do we even remember or have any history going back that far, I don't think so. This proves that as we progress our nations get bigger, eventually we will just be 1 nation, the earth. Who will people hate then, probably the settlers on Mars. But it's progress.


Sorry to let you down but I dont hate anybody Mancunians or otherwise.People are just people.

Originally posted by E-Man Groovin
Lordy. Some strong feelings here. In addition to the language, here are some other aspects/ideas of English culture which were succesfully exported around the globe:

Shakespeare
Football
Rugby
Cricket
Tennis
NHS
Jet engine
Punk Rock

I'm sure there are heaps more. I doubt you'll find anyone (PC or otherwise) who is ashamed of the above. Stuff we do that's popular and is enjoyed by the majority will always be bigged-up. Go on, name some things that you are proud of!

I think the problem is less one of the "PC-Brigade" as some of you term it, rather it's the fact that we are a highly sophisticated society, who have bought into the whole postmodern/ironic thing. This means that we cringe at stuff which isn't cool. This takes us so far up our own backsides that we go off around the world in search of some blind innocence that we feel we've lost. And the exotic always seems cooler and more acceptable to postmodern man/woman.

However, some of you may have point - why look around the world for uncomplicated, honest art when there's it's going on in one's own backyard.

But I must say that the whole "we're not allowed to fly St Georges flags stuff" is just ******** as far as I'm concerned. Course you are. There is no law against it - what are you on about? Stop whinging!

Zeddy.

I dont do this often but....


What E-man said - he hit the nail on the head there (ferric lignin penetrative fastening device on the designated impact plate( Just for you cycleracer :) )

I dont hate any one but if you ask the welsh or the scots they wont say that there british because they both HATE the english , and they will tell you so, and the so called "stories " about the council not allowing taxi drivers to fly the flag are true , i will dig deeper for some evidence!!

even if the flag flying story is true, as i said its not the norm. it's a stand out occurrence. I'm sure that flying a st georges cross is fine. I see loads, especially when theres football or rugby on. I've yet to see anyone being told to take them down.

there's a house at the sheffield end of the a57, somewhere around the tea shop on the right as you head in to town.

It's always flying the English Flag.

You tend to see it on churches in Hampshire if I remember correctly

If everyone gets one and flies it (everyone who wants to that is) then it may well catch on.

There was a lot of it about during some football thing or other....don't tell me you have forgotten the plastic clip on flags that everyone and their dog had on their car that summer?

And if you look very carefully you might just spot one or two of those flags this summer.

Originally posted by lazarus
Racial hatred will always be there you cant bring a law out and hope it will stop it because it wont, racial hatred has always been with us from the start of this so called civilised world and it will still be there when it all ends

Originally posted by lazarus
Sorry to let you down but I dont hate anybody Mancunians or otherwise.People are just people.

So what was your point then?

Originally posted by Tony
It's pretty good actually. Try the Devonshire Cat on St Georges Day, they are bound to have loads of St Georges beers.:thumbsup:

How about asking the Devonshire Cat / Fat Cat people about setting up a St Georges tent on Devonshire green a la the hogs head varient ;)

Like most beliefs/cultures etc. its a good thing to know about or even be proud of your culture its a bad thing to ram it down other peoples throat!

Sounds like a darned fine idea!

Do the Irish not get a Bank Holiday for there Saint's day?

Originally posted by Cyclone
So what was your point then?

My point is you cant stop people hating each other but I just take people for what they are, we are all here to live a life the best way we can.

I didnt mean that the general public wasnt allowed to fly the flag , it was a taxi driver who was orded to remove it by the WONDERFULL sheffield council because they said it would offend customers!!!!

Originally posted by lazarus
Racial hatred will always be there you cant bring a law out and hope it will stop it because it wont, racial hatred has always been with us from the start of this so called civilised world and it will still be there when it all ends

Why do you say that.

Racial hatred is founded in irrational fear. We are gradually overcoming our irrational fears as a species and, in a few thousand years, we will mostly be biscuit coloured. No more 'whites' just a planet of dark golden skinned humans.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Why do you say that.

Racial hatred is founded in irrational fear. We are gradually overcoming our irrational fears as a species and, in a few thousand years, we will mostly be biscuit coloured. No more 'whites' just a planet of dark golden skinned humans.

I wish I shared your optimism. In my experience racism is still just as widespread as ever.

I could give dozens of examples, but here's one I hear all the time. I travel between Australia and UK a lot which inevitably means I get to meet a lot of ex-pat Brits on planes, in airports etc.

Almost without exception, they claim that Britain has gone to the dogs in recent years because of immigration. I won't quote the actual words they use in case someone gets offended, but I expect you can work it out.

This is a very common view among British people living in other countries (not one I share I hasten to add).

Originally posted by mojoworking
I wish I shared your optimism. In my experience racism is still just as widespread as ever.

I could give dozens of examples, but here's one I hear all the time. I travel between Australia and UK a lot which inevitably means I get to meet a lot of ex-pat Brits on planes, in airports etc.

Almost without exception, they claim that Britain has gone to the dogs in recent years because of immigration. I won't quote the actual words they use in case someone gets offended, but I expect you can work it out.

This is a very common view among British people living in other countries (not one I share I hasten to add).

once again, i'll point out that the mojority of immigrants are irish, but no one seems to complain about that. Also as much as people dont like it, this country has been subject to immagrants for thousands of years. i dont believe that anyone here can claim that they are of pure english/british stock. As I have metioned, my father is irish, my mother is kiwi, does that mean that i have no right to consider myself british? can we not just settle down and realise that britain is, and always has been a mixed up country? I for one embrace that. it's the mix of cultures (over thousands of years) that makes this country what it is. It's this mix of cultures that gives us our identity.

it annoys me when people moan about our country and losing its identity. Face it! this country has been subjected to mixed cultures for many years. Just because we seem to have a problem with it now, doesn't mean things are changing. this is the way it's always been.

Embrace our mixed culture, stop going on about the odd issue where an immigrant gets special treatment ahead of someone you know.

unless it really affects your life, which I doubt it it does, Just get on with you life and stop moaning.

Originally posted by Andy78
once again, i'll point out that the mojority of immigrants are irish, but no one seems to complain about that. Also as much as people dont like it, this country has been subject to immagrants for thousands of years. i dont believe that anyone here can claim that they are of pure english/british stock. As I have metioned, my father is irish, my mother is kiwi, does that mean that i have no right to consider myself british? can we not just settle down and realise that britain is, and always has been a mixed up country? I for one embrace that. it's the mix of cultures (over thousands of years) that makes this country what it is. It's this mix of cultures that gives us our identity.

it annoys me when people moan about our country and losing its identity. Face it! this country has been subjected to mixed cultures for many years. Just because we seem to have a problem with it now, doesn't mean things are changing. this is the way it's always been.

Embrace our mixed culture, stop going on about the odd issue where an immigrant gets special treatment ahead of someone you know.

unless it really affects your life, which I doubt it it does, Just get on with you life and stop moaning.

I'm not sure if this is a general comment, or one directed at me? If it's the latter, I would ask that you read the last line of my post again :)

Originally posted by mojoworking
I'm not sure if this is a general comment, or one directed at me? If it's the latter, I would ask that you read the last line of my post again :)

i'm sorry, that wasn't really directed at you. didn't mean to offend. Probably shouldn't have quoted your post there.

Originally posted by Andy78
i'm sorry, that wasn't really directed at you. didn't mean to offend. Probably shouldn't have quoted your post there.

No problem. I thought that was was the case, but wanted to check anyway.
Cheers.

Originally posted by mer1002
I didnt mean that the general public wasnt allowed to fly the flag , it was a taxi driver who was orded to remove it by the WONDERFULL sheffield council because they said it would offend customers!!!!

Can you tell us where to find the reference? If that really did happen and you feel strongly about it you should write to Cllr Beverley Wright the Chair of the Licencing Committee at the Town Hall. Here's the link. (http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/your-city-council/council-meetings/licensing-board-)

Originally posted by Andy78
once again, i'll point out that the mojority of immigrants are irish, but no one seems to complain about that. Also as much as people dont like it, this country has been subject to immagrants for thousands of years. i dont believe that anyone here can claim that they are of pure english/british stock. As I have metioned, my father is irish, my mother is kiwi, does that mean that i have no right to consider myself british? can we not just settle down and realise that britain is, and always has been a mixed up country? I for one embrace that. it's the mix of cultures (over thousands of years) that makes this country what it is. It's this mix of cultures that gives us our identity.

it annoys me when people moan about our country and losing its identity. Face it! this country has been subjected to mixed cultures for many years. Just because we seem to have a problem with it now, doesn't mean things are changing. this is the way it's always been.

Embrace our mixed culture, stop going on about the odd issue where an immigrant gets special treatment ahead of someone you know.

unless it really affects your life, which I doubt it it does, Just get on with you life and stop moaning.

Guess who was on the stella last night!

We English dont even celebrate St.Georges day yet we're all off to the pub come St.Patricks......(must be the guiness promotions!)

Originally posted by foxy27
We English dont even celebrate St.Georges day yet we're all off to the pub come St.Patricks......(must be the guiness promotions!)

I think you'll find that the reason people don't go out and celebrate on St George's day is that the much feared PC Brigade (anti-English division) choses that night for their annual exercises. These include such activities as flag tearing, maypole destruction, Morris Dancer baiting among others.

It's the one night of the year when true Englishmen and women cower in their homes in fear of their lives.

oh for christ's sake! Will people go and read the other load of threads on this subject. As has been metioned a shed load of times, st patrick's day is celebrated because of guiness. st georges day simply isn't backed by a major brewery so doesn't get noticed as much. It's nothing to do with political correctness. Go wave a flag on st georges day, it'll be fine. There's no law against it. Stop using moaning about this political corectness, when there really is no need to.

Fact number one...the Cresent means jack to a Muslim, and I am a Muslim. That cresent comes from a Pakistani Flag, its man made tradition and jack to do with Muslims/Islam. So do what yah will with cresent, true Muslims wont give a damn anyway. It's on a mosque because its decorative and symbolises light, and wisdom.

Fact two: it ain't the average Muslim or Christainis playing the race card or celebrating diversity shabang, although I am for celebrating cultural diversity, but what the people in Politics do and those who have power of funding, is they do this and myself, as Muslim Black person, see what they trying to do. Playing polotical correctness which actually divides people, communities and even black communities themselves.

We really don't give a damn, whether people wanna celebrate our culture or not, we're doing it anyway.

What I find is, people get kind of erm, how shall I say, they shout out or say 'How come no one celebrating our culture?'

Can I just say one thing about that? Nothing stopping all of you to get together, get some funding, and celebrate English history culture instead of it being hijacked by some nationalitic rubbish.

I have read quiet a bit about English culture, very facinating indeed, much of which, came from either the east or africa, mathematics, astronomy, biology, and on and on didn't come from English History but from East and Africa, but there is also great achievements that came from England, Ireland, and man, yah awesome music history and the language, shakespeat etc, yah revolution, yah fighting against the system, and much more regarding the industrial revolution etc

Just write up and photograph on yah history on British music is amazingh enough, and go way, way back, and personally, as an Black and Asian guy, I wont mind knowing more of English culture. So my future kids know too, and realise, we ain't so different after all and all connects. I mean, I know all I need to know about mine to disifier fabrication and true historical facts that hasn't been written but some **** or system.

While i was searching for my evidence I came across another story,
different but also relevant to my point.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1643358.stm

I have only just found this thread, and watched it meander up hill and down vale

I am trying to think what constitutes English Culture.

This is a serious question

I could make a decent argument that for some people the English culture might be about going to the Workind Mens Club on a Friday night with the men and on a Saturday night with their wife, perhaps to watch a turn. It might mean bingo, fish and chips. It might involve a holiday in Blackpool, a bit of singing, playing crown green bowls....

I could make a decent argument that for some people, English culture might be about going to the theater, watching opera, doing the crossword in the Daily Telegraph in under 20 minutes, watching cricket, going to dinner dances with the Rotary Club....

I could make a decent argument that for some people, English culture might be about going to a footy match and drinking lager and going to a nightclub and going to the cinema, watching the speedway, eating curry....

I could make a decent argument that for some, English culture is about hunting, shooting, fishing, wearing lots of posh clothes and expensive jewellry, collecting fine art, eating caviar....

And of course for every one one of those suggestions there will be someone who wouldnt like to do that, who hasnt done, who has no intention of doing it, yet would see themselves as English

Is English Culture only about old things, like playing the spinnet and singing Greensleeves and watching strolling minstrels and jousting and bear-bating and cock-fighting?

Is it about hand to hand combat with staves and shields?

Is it about things that by and large we dont do any more, because we have newer alternatives - Television and Cinema and recorded music, (and missiles and the RSPCA?)

So I am not sure exactly what "English Culture" means.

Some of you will think I am making an obscure point and you will be trying to work out what it is, but I'm really not.

I am just asking the question, because I know I am English through and through, 15 of my 16 great great great grandparents were born in England, which is near enough as makes no difference.

And if I dont really know what "English Culture" is, if I cant define it, then perhaps people are getting a bit hot under the collar unnecessarily?

Perhaps being English means having a massive variety of things to get excited about and join in with? Having lots of choices?

That would do for me

Originally posted by mer1002
While i was searching for my evidence I came across another story,
different but also relevant to my point.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1643358.stm

This was the bit I noticed in that article though

///

Mike Ridley, head of environment and health at St Albans District Council, said: "We don't allow flags to be mounted on taxis.

"The rules say a taxi must be white with yellow stripes with a St Albans crest on the doors and nothing else.

"More than half of our drivers are Asian. We don't allow the Pakistani flag or 'I love Kashmir' stickers."

///

That is a "Watch my lips mate, we dont do flags, period" kind of a message isnt it?

Originally posted by Belle
[snip quality post]

Perhaps being English means having a massive variety of things to get excited about and join in with? Having lots of choices?

That would do for me

It would do for me too, Belle.
Top post.

Nomme

Originally posted by Belle
And if I dont really know what "English Culture" is, if I cant define it, then perhaps people are getting a bit hot under the collar unnecessarily?
It's really more about intolerance of other cultures than protection of an "English culture".

Britain has always absorbed other cultures and benefited from it. Every other country in the world does the same. Long may it continue.

Originally posted by Cyclone
why would you rather be English than British? England was central to the formation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and we have all been British for many generations.

I believe that racial discrimation and inciting racial hatred or violence is illegal to people belonging to minority groups just the same as people belonging to the majority.

for God's sake, are you trying to say that no-one is even allowed to say they are English now? i wasn't born in Scotland, Ireland, or Wales, I was born in England, so I'm bloody well English, thank you very much. you don't seem to be making the same point about people from other parts of the British isles, only the English. try telling someone from Scotland that they should declare themselves British and not Scots, you would quickly be 'nutted' off your cycle, and quite rightly too.

call yourself whatever you like. As a nation we are British.

I was responding to a comment about politicians calling us British. Since they represent Britain, and not just England, they would be remiss to talk about the English unless it was an England only issue.

Have a look in your passport, what nationality does it say?

Originally posted by Cyclone
call yourself whatever you like. As a nation we are British.

I was responding to a comment about politicians calling us British. Since they represent Britain, and not just England, they would be remiss to talk about the English unless it was an England only issue.

Have a look in your passport, what nationality does it say?

Spanish. obviously some sort of sick euro joke.

Having traced my family back to 1220 in this area, I think qualifies me as English.

Why can't we fly our flag without some council jobsworth coming round bleating about offending the ethnic minorities, It's time we reclaimed our Country.

Merged threads.

Originally posted by David Bowler
Having traced my family back to 1220 in this area, I think qualifies me as English.

I'm impressed. How many generations does it cover and where abouts did they live? I'd be interested to know how you did your research as I know my family came over in 1066 but there's a bit of a gap before I can pick up the thread again.

I consider myself English too although the Normans came originally from Scandanavia via Normandy in France.

David -
Didn't you find any Viking or Celtic links in your family tree ?
Granma

Originally posted by David Bowler
Having traced my family back to 1220 in this area, I think qualifies me as English.

Why can't we fly our flag without some council jobsworth coming round bleating about offending the ethnic minorities, It's time we reclaimed our Country.

As said before, you can!