What happened yesterday in Spain is truly horrible.
But what seems really striking about it is that, at the moment there are 2 possible terrorist groups that may have been responsible. I have heard of ETA before, but it is Al Quaeda which has been in the media so much because of 9/11 that have been portrayed as the main terrorist group in the world today.

I know that Al Quaeda are a huge threat to many countries, but it feels like that because something happens to America, then a whole load of western countries have to become involved. How many countries are under threat from terrorist groups within their own country? The UK was coping with the IRA for decades and , like Spain with ETA we just had to get on and deal with it.

From what they have been saying on the news it sounds like Al Quaeda could be responsible for yesterday, if this is the case I hope Bush has the integrity not to use the attack for his re-election campaign.

I reckon it's a sneaky Al Queda move. After all the security alerts and tightening-up in The States and here, I reckon it was much easier for them to do their dirty stuff in Spain as no-one really expected it.

But thinking about it now - didn't that make Spain a more obvious target?

I suppose - because of Spain's policy on the Iraq war - it was only a question of time.

I love Spain and really feel for them.

Horrible, nasty stuff.

I'd be very surprised if those Afghan camel jockeys that are Al Qaida were responsible.

Don't ETA usually pull off high profile stunts like this? I think back to the May 1st 2002 blast outside Madrid's Santiago Bernabeu football stadium where Real Madrid were just about to play a European Champions League semifinal.

Someone from the company I work for was there and is in a critical condition. We had an email come round at work today.
Scary stuff.

Originally posted by Abdul
I'd be very surprised if those Afghan camel jockeys that are Al Qaida were responsible.

Don't ETA usually pull off high profile stunts like this? I think back to the May 1st 2002 blast outside Madrid's Santiago Bernabeu football stadium where Real Madrid were just about to play a European Champions League semifinal.

But ETA have never, ever done anything on this sort of scale.

Originally posted by Sam Miguel
But ETA have never, ever done anything on this sort of scale.

ETA dont leave a van full of detonators and islamic tapes near by either.

ETA have denied it.

When i first heard about it i thougt ETA astraight away,but this seems a bit to big for them.I think it might be down to Al quaida(sp),tho there are a lot of question marks

And ETA normally give a warning beforehand.

...And what ****** me off, is that Spain had the goodness to come in with us to get rid of these evil ********, and countries like Germany and France wouldn't.

We are striving to make the world a safer place, but THEY will benefit. No bombs in countries like that for being nice and neutral.

See you en tees, they are.

ETA's style is car bombs on a smaller scale than this,Al qaida go for maximum destruction of the innocents.
My heart goes out to the spanish people,next time it could be us.

By the way it is 911 days since 9/11

And it's Spain's 3/11

Originally posted by tittyheed
ETA's style is car bombs on a smaller scale than this,Al qaida go for maximum destruction of the innocents.
My heart goes out to the spanish people,next time it could be us.

By the way it is 911 days since 9/11

And I agree 100% with that.

Yes nasty stuff. I agree with everyone who thinks Al Qaeda are responsible because at this stage the evidence seems to point that way. Unfortunately I think it is only a matter of time before the UK is a victim :(

I was shocked at the Daily Mirrors choice of lead story today..... every newspaper led on this story and dedicated the front page but the Daily Mirror saw it fit to give their attention to the freed Guantanamo prisoner(s). Maybe its just me but I find this to be in a very bad taste considering Al Qaeda are prime suspects and a freed suspected terrorist (he wasn't arrested at random) is the lead story.

I spoke to my girlfriends brother who has lived in Spain for 4 years or so now, he married into a Spanish family. He says that everyone there is convinced it is ETA. They have never done anything as big as this before, but it was the biggest terrorist attack in Europe, so in a way no one has.

He said some of the larger attacks from ETA have been denied the same way this one was. Regarding the Muslim magazines or tapes or whatever they were, which were found in a van with detonators, remember that this was very well planned which means they were left on purpose and so cannot be taken as proof one way or the other.

It was only two weeks ago when a huge amount of explosives were discovered, explosives which belonged to ETA.

BTW my gf's brother and his family do not know anyone in the explosions, and they are all fine, physically at least.

Originally posted by t020
...considering Al Qaeda are prime suspects and a freed suspected terrorist (he wasn't arrested at random) is the lead story.

Sorry to take this off thread, but after the interview with Trevor McDonald (hardly highbrow stuff I admit), it appears it was a random arrest.

Surely, the British authorities would have kept him incarcerated if he was.

I was interested when I heard that 911 days since 9/11. And I did some calculations, and hey, guess what? I'm pretty sure its 912 days.
Whether this is significant that a piece of disinformation has been very widely circulated I'm not sure, but I think its quite interesting.

Originally posted by Yodameister
I was interested when I heard that 911 days since 9/11. And I did some calculations, and hey, guess what? I'm pretty sure its 912 days.
Whether this is significant that a piece of disinformation has been very widely circulated I'm not sure, but I think its quite interesting.

Yes you're right actually - from 11th Sept 2001 to 11th March 2004 is 912 days. There are however, 911 days in between the 2 dates. It still seems a suspciously big coincidence.

What do these terrorists hope to achieve by bombing innocent civilians? It is hardly going to help their cause, whether they think the West is anti-Muslim or not. They're just a bunch of uncivilised, brain-washed morons that deserve to die. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the world would be a better place without religion.

Originally posted by richard
I
It was only two weeks ago when a huge amount of explosives were discovered, explosives which belonged to ETA.

Supposedly the explosives used the other day can be traced back to that batch.......

Seems weird that Al Qaeda have claimed responsibility so quick as well - they usually leave it a week or two. Hell what do I know?

Originally posted by Sam Miguel
...And what ****** me off, is that Spain had the goodness to come in with us to get rid of these evil ********, and countries like Germany and France wouldn't.

We are striving to make the world a safer place, but THEY will benefit. No bombs in countries like that for being nice and neutral.

See you en tees, they are.

No Sam.

This doesn't add up.

Germany and France wouldn't support a war against a man who didn't have any WMD.

The real reason the didn't support the war is that they knew that the American administration would sweep in and hoover up all the fat civil projects that were given to France/Germany/Russia during the 10 year oil for aid and weekly US bombing campaign. You can see why US never got many contracts at that time.

Different issue at stake here.

If this was Al qaida, you are helping them fan the flames of bloody conflict by making the association they want you to make.

Al qaida was never a friend of Iraq until the secular republican government was overthrown and Saddam Hussein, arch anti-islamist, was removed.

When we decided to start the war against terrorism we knew as a certainty, that it would be an asymmetric war.

We may be still sending troops to afghanistan but no government official could have been ignorant of the fact that we will fight this war with the blood of civilians, not the military. That is the meaning of the term.

And in the world of terrorism, Al qaida prosecute asymmetrical terrorism.

Everyone knew what the demands of the IRA were in their simplest terms - the return of Northern Ireland to the Republic.

What are the demands of Al Qaida. Has anyone hazarded a guess as to why they are doing what they are doing?

Once again, the blameless are being slaughtered in the name of greater ideologies at play on the global stage.

As for the ETA/Al-qaida connection - The spanish government doesn't want it to be Al-qaida until after the election because Aznar was widely castigated in Spain for his outspoken support for the Bush/Blair axis culminating in the 'summit' they hosted in spain. One of the chief criticisms was the perceived anti-arabic and anti-islamic stance - and if Al Qaida is found to be the perpetrator, or another radical 'islamist' group - there are millions of people in spain who will be able to say "We told you this would happen and you ignored us" to Aznar and get rid of him.

The government will keep saying ETA until it is demonstrably shown otherwise.

As professor Paul Roberts of the Univ of Bradford Peace Studies Faculty commented - there is a high likelihood that in the dying stages of ETA, after the organisation was eviscerated by good old fashioned spanish police work, that small radicalised group or groups will emerge - as the Continuity IRA, Real IRA and INLA did when the Provisional IRA we're being hit hard. Omagh bombing was not the provos.

Roberts, emphasised continuously that he was indulging in speculation unlike most other talking heads on TV that seem to have the answeras to the identity of the terrorists either from God or a more reliable source .

Roberts continued to speculate that in his opinion it was likely to be one of these splinter groups that orchestrated the attack.

Terrorist atrocities on our own shores have died down considerably. Lots of us remember brighton, mountbatten, deal, hyde park, some will remember the pub bombings. My dad was inspecting his car with an underfloor mirror every day for two years on the advice of the cops.

not quite so much any more And what brought this about? Negotiation.

And I also refuse to be afraid - because fear is a political tool as much as a visceral emotion - and is always utilised as such by men and women seeking power and influence over one another.

Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. All these things make you more easily manipulable. Salesmen have known this for years, ever since they started teaching Machiavelli in business schools.

As a pure risk assessment, with no factors taken into account, the risk of me being blown up in a terrorist bomb is minute compared to the risk of me dying 'prematurely' in a car accident or being personally murdered by another individual. And the chances of those are pretty remote in themselves. So the risk is minutely remote.

Terrorism is not new. And it isn't a problem that can be solved, it needs to be managed.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme

Terrorism is not new. And it isn't a problem that can be solved, it needs to be managed.


How?

Just been confirmed on news that Al Qaida bombed Spain.

Originally posted by markham
Just been confirmed on news that Al Qaida bombed Spain.

Surprise, surprise. We all knew it anyway.... apart from Abdul of course. :rolleyes:

Doesn't explain why they both had the same explosives though...

Phan: I jumped in without thinking. I admire your views and explanation of a very tricky situation.

I do think that the Yanks and us ( Iam not a Bliar fan by any means) have created more stabilty by getting into the middle east.

We need to stay there. Forever if neccesary.

Originally posted by t020
Yes you're right actually - from 11th Sept 2001 to 11th March 2004 is 912 days. There are however, 911 days in between the 2 dates. It still seems a suspciously big coincidence.

What do these terrorists hope to achieve by bombing innocent civilians? It is hardly going to help their cause, whether they think the West is anti-Muslim or not. They're just a bunch of uncivilised, brain-washed morons that deserve to die. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the world would be a better place without religion.

Bravo, T.

That is one of the most uplifting things I have read for ages.

How can anyone justify killing people?

I have my Spanish football shirt on today as a mark of respect. I know it won't do any good, but what the hell..

Originally posted by t020
Surprise, surprise. We all knew it anyway.... apart from Abdul of course. :rolleyes:

No t020, we all SUSPECTED it. There's a difference.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
Doesn't explain why they both had the same explosives though...

Same supplier/outlet.

Originally posted by markham
Same supplier/outlet.

Same supplier to two very different terrorist organisations - not impossible but very weird if you ask me.

Not so wierd really, there's a limited number of outlets. Woolworths don't sell it.

During 12 months of service in Belfast in the 70's I became aware that the IRA were using the same stuff as Arafat and Gadaffi, but weren't using it on their behalf.

Originally posted by Yodameister
I was interested when I heard that 911 days since 9/11. And I did some calculations, and hey, guess what? I'm pretty sure its 912 days.
Whether this is significant that a piece of disinformation has been very widely circulated I'm not sure, but I think its quite interesting.

I did similar calculations when I read that it was 911 days and also got 912 days. One innocent explanation is maybe somebody forgot that it is a leap year.

But it is the kind of statement that will live on whether it is true or not.

g

my heart goes out the families of the victims having been to spain and worked there i personally do not think it was the e.t.a. movement that were responsible. They do not go around killing civillians their target is police and officials. al queda maybe some fringe idiots more likely

why Aznar wanted it to be ETA -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3511280.stm

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
why Aznar wanted it to be ETA -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3511280.stm
I hate to say it but Al-Qaeda have out-thought and out manoeuvred the US and UK at every stage.

They began with the 9-11 atrocity, which promoted their terrorist "brand" worldwide. Victory No.1.

Immediately post 9-11 the US wading into Afghanistan but failed to smash Al-Qaeda and/or kill/capture the Al-Qaeda leadership - it appeared they had anticipated such as a move and had their escape routes planned. The Jihad they so desperately wanted had begun and their generals remained untouched. Victory No.2.

Despite efforts to portray the invasion of Afghanistan as a "liberation" from the Taliban, conditions in the country (with perhaps the exception of Kabul) got worse. As a result the US now is lumbered with the job of trying to maintain some stability using tens of thousands of troops. Victory No.3.

As the Afghan people continue to live in poor conditions they no longer blame the Taliban for their plight but the US and its poodles. As a result more and more people are drawn to extremist groups like Al-Qaeda, not just from within Afghanistan but across the region. Victory No.4.

The failure to capture Bin Laden meant the US needed someone else to beat up so as not to look weak. They chose Saddam Hussein despite the fact that Iraq had no history of, or links to, terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda. It was also despite the fact that Al-Qaeda hated the Saddam regime almost as much as they hated the West. A strange decision given that this was meant to be a war against terrorism not nasty leaders.

Ignoring the pleas from every single country in the Middle East not to invade Iraq, and despite failing to get a motion passed by the UN to legitimise the invasion, the US and Poodles went in anyway. The result? Thousands of lives were lost (many civilian) and hatred for the West across the Middle East grew as did support for extreme groups. Victory No. 5.

Since the "liberation" of Iraq conditions for it’s' people have worsened. As a result, hundreds of thousands of troops will be tied up in the region for years to come. Long enough for a new generation to grow up hating the occupiers from the west. Weakening the US military and providing more recruits for the terrorists. Victory No.6.

To make matters worse, the excuse for war (the WMD that supposedly threatened our countries) turned out to have no foundation. There were no WMD, there was no threat. Did our governments lie? In some respects it doesn't matter what we in the West think. What matters is that in many Muslim countries around the world more and more people think we are liars. They think we are a threat to their way of life and they blame and hate us for their woes (justified or not). The result? Even more recruits for Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Victory No.7.

Score so far... Al-Qaeda 7, US and Poodles 0

Not only has Al-Qaeda now pulled off the worst act of terrorism ever seen in Europe, it has also determined the outcome of a general election as a show of stength.

No doubt Al-Qaeda is also making plans to try and influence the forthcoming elections in the US and UK, except this time I suspect they’ll be hoping to keep in power the governments that serve their cause so well.

Within the 24 hours following 9/11, Bush and the FBI allowed the Bin Laden family to be flown out of the US and Bush has never cooperated with the investigations into 9/11.

There seems to have been quite a noticable difference between the US reaction to 9/11 and Spains reacton to Thursday, a lot less vengeance and retribution seems to be coming out. I wonder how England would react if we ever had to deal with something like that on that scale. The threat of Al Qaeda does seem a lot closer to us now that they have attacked Europe.

Al-Quaedas aim (as far as I can tell), is to provoke an open jihad between Islam and the West, by formenting hatred in both camps. The letter that was released to the al-Quds newspaper in London said something about 'settling old scores', which could mean Spain's support in the most recent war, or their defeat of the Islamic kingdom of al-Andalus by Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492.

It is nigh on impossible to have any kind of meaningful dialogue, or negotiation with people who want to have a re-match of the Middle Ages, and are motivated by fanaticism.

I am not of the school that the current terrorism problems stem from western foreign policy, although maybe we haven't done ourselves any favours in this department. al-Quaeda seems to have suckered the west into invading countries, to further their own agenda. There has to be some kind of way of making Muslims less angry with the west, and not seeing this set of problems as some kind of clash of civilisations, which I don't think it is.