Is there any online templates etc. on how to set up a flow chart or somthing for when your writing a novel. If not could someone recommend a book; somthing like a "Dummies" book.

I am not so much concerned on the Grammer side as I have a friend whose offered to do the proof reading, but I am concerned about getting the structure correct. I've always wanted to write a Novel and I said it was going to be one of my New Years resolutions!!!

Cheers for any help.

If you're aiming for publication, you're going to have to be pretty much fluid with grammar, spelling and punctuation. Seriously, editors jump on any excuse to reject a manuscript, simply because they receive so many. A manuscript that has been checked and edited by friends etc when the author is not as familiar as he or she could be with the fundementals, will stick out like a sore thumb. Publishers' slush piles are heaving with them.

Anyway, as for the question about books; there are some excellent ones out there and some horrific dross, so be careful what you buy. Ones that are particularly useful (in my opinion):

'Write Away: One Novelist's Approach to Fiction and the Writing Life' by Elizabeth George. A chatty, interesting and detailed book about crime writing, from a successful writer.

The 'Write Great Fiction' series of books. One is called: 'Plot and Structure: Techniques and Exercises for Crafting and Plot That Grips Readers from Start to Finish' by James Scott Bell. Do a search on Amazon for this and it will bring up the others in the series.

The 'Elements of Fiction Writing Series'. One in particular is very good: 'Character and Viewpoint' by Orson Scott Card. Do a search for that one on Amazon, and the rest in the series will pop up.

A tip for the 'Elements of Fiction Writing Series': There are two books called (if I remember correctly) 'How to Write a Million' and something like 'More about How to Write a Million' (I don't think that's the correct title, but it's something along those lines). Naff, naff titles, but they are each cheap compilations of three books in this series. Well worth knowing.

'From Pitch to Publication' by Carole Blake - Deals with the mechanics of dealing with agents, publishers, editors, producing the manuscript etc.

'The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes' by Jack M Bickham. Not an introductory book, but very, very useful.

Anything by James N Frey eg 'How to Write a Damn Good Novel' - naff title and American based, but highly recommended.

'The Writer's Journey' by Christopher Vogler - Highly recommended book about the structure of the novel, based on mythic structure and archetypes. Not as high-brow as it sounds. Most successful (popular) films and novels have the 'hero' and the hero's journey.

'Story' by Robert McKee - Can't recommend this one highly enough. It's aimed at screen writers (and it's expensive, so look in the library), but it's incredibly useful forinformation about structure and chracter.

There are lots more. Do a Amazon serach on any of the above titles and look at the books that others have bought at the same time.

There are books in the 'Dummies' and 'Idiot's Guide' series on writing and publishing, but in my opinion, they're not much good.

Oh, and for God's sake don't use a template if you want to get published. The editors will pin your manuscript to their noticeboard in the staff room and chuckle about it over coffee...

Good luck!

Cheers PPN

I'l take a look at those.

No i'm not too bothered wether it gets published, it would be nice if it did :D but its just sort of been an ambition of mine to write a novel.

This friend is a genius when it comes to proof reading, he does a lot of it for people.

I will attempt to get published mind you, if I feel its good enough.

Why do I get the feeling your book will be about a major ecological disaster? :rolleyes:

Seriously though, write it soon. We all need a wake up call!
I've just started writing again after a ten year gap and didn't realise how much I'd missed it, so here goes with a few tips that helped me....


Unbreachable rule one: Always carry a notebook and pen, the best ideas always come when you're doing something mundane and it's a dead cert you'll forget unless you get it down straight away. I even keep one under the pillow, you'll get used to writing in the dark.

Don't get hung up on spelling and punctuation on the first draft, the important thing is to get the content down. Polish it up later, grammar is just about making sure a sentence/paragraph makes sense, if it stops the eye while you puzzle out the context then it's bad grammar; you're not writing a university exam, you just need clear and understandable prose that keeps tagging the eye along after it

I always kept two files on disk with a character biography and a rough synopsis of the story. Just sit them on the task bar and use them for reference, as the story develops keep adding details so you can keep track. A chapter map is useful for pacing the story, you don't want all the action in the first chapter followed by five chapters of analysis. Don't be longwinded, throw in a separate chapter here and there of just a page or two or so to keep the story linking without overworking your characters.

Dialogue between characters can trip up a first time writer, make sure they don't all sound the same and don't give them all some mad idiosyncrasy to differentiate between them. One foible for one character per book is just about tolerable, I call it Columbos raincoat syndrome. The characters should be living breathing people in your head before you attempt to put them on paper otherwise they won't have anything to say.

pull a few books off the shelf and look closely at the different writing styles, then write something of your own; have a few practise runs first of a few pages then hide them away until you can't remember how you phrased them. Read them after a week or two and if they don't make you feel like killing yourself then start writing!

Good luck with it Wayne

Happy new world!

Absolutely excellent advice from Splodge_CRB.

Here's a suugestion for a writers' forum that I posted in another thread. You may have missed it, so here it is again:
Absolute Write (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/) .
It is American-based, but don't be put off. It has lots of contributers from the UK and the advice and suggestions there are excellent.

I must admit that I am big on the grammar and punctuation business though. The writer can't be aware of what will be jarring in a paragraph, unless he or she knows the rules inside out... at least most of them anyway! Editors will weed out the odd typo and badly positioned comma, but they will be ruthless if it looks like you don't know how to apply the basics.

If you're not aiming to be published, at least at first, then fair enough.

we all start somewhere go for it & good luck:thumbsup:

Originally posted by ppn_2204
Absolutely excellent advice from Splodge_CRB.

Here's a suugestion for a writers' forum that I posted in another thread. You may have missed it, so here it is again:
Absolute Write (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/) .
It is American-based, but don't be put off. It has lots of contributers from the UK and the advice and suggestions there are excellent

They certainly got an attitude over there!!! I only introduced myself on the Newbie section and one of the mods attacked me :gag:

Not sure if i'll bother with them! I like splodge_CRB's advice.

Dont worry too much Cliff Clavin... he either can't spell or can't type:hihi:

(I think this is his posting to you)
{Ah, I 'never' read fiction didn't sound like a brief haitus to write.}


:hihi:

Good Luck with the book!!

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by eagleeyes
Dont worry too much Cliff Clavin... he either can't spell or can't type:hihi:

(I think this is his posting to you)
{Ah, I 'never' read fiction didn't sound like a brief haitus to write.}


:hihi:

Good Luck with the book!!

:thumbsup:

:hihi: Thats the one :heyhey:

Originally posted by Cliff Clavin
They certainly got an attitude over there!!! I only introduced myself on the Newbie section and one of the mods attacked me :gag:

Not sure if i'll bother with them! I like splodge_CRB's advice.
Well, you either went to the wrong forum, caught one of them on a bad day, the person who 'attacked' you wasn't a mod, or you've gpt a very thin skin! :) . What did you say to them to induce such an attack?

I've been visiting that site since about last Summer, and the regulars have been nothing but polite, interesting and helpful.

Post a link to your contribution to the forum, so I can have a a look. I'm intrigued...

Wait a minute; are you the poster who claimed to never read fiction? The other poster's reply was hardly an attack.

I too find it odd that somone who wants to write a novel, whether for publication or for their own amusement, claims to never read fiction.

Apologies if that poster isn't you. Nontheless, I'm still astounded, whoever the poster was.

Originally posted by ppn_2204
Wait a minute; are you the poster who claimed to never read fiction? The other poster's reply was hardly an attack.

I too find it odd that somone who wants to write a novel, whether for publication or for their own amusement, claims to never read fiction.

Apologies if that poster isn't you. Nontheless, I'm still astounded, whoever the poster was.

Yeah thats me, but did you read the whole post. I used to read Fiction many years ago and lots of it too. But I haven't read fiction now for 15 or so years, except for "1984." The reason is as I say I don't want to have some other writers influence on my own style. I read lots of Non-Fiction though, so i've got a good idea on how to put things together.

Is this wrong? If so why? All because I dare to be different doesn't mean I won't succeed. I never went on the site asll cocky and stuff. I only introduced myself and "Veinglory" attacked me! It does say under his/her name that they are a Mod.

Now surely you or anyone would give a Newbie the benifit of the doubt and enourage them to do a Novel from a different angle to the Norm. All I was hoping for was to get some advice on the best way to start. Once i've started, I know it will flow then.

Now if i'd gone on all Cocky and Arrogant and said something like, "OK i'm going to write the best selling number 1 novel ever and I don't even read Novels, unlike you geeks. And my Novel will blow the socks of yours because I have no outside influence on my style!" Then I would expect arsy comments back. But no all I said was, I want to do this Novel with no intentions of being published; although it would be great if it happend, as its more of a personal ambition. Or words to those effect. So did I deserve the arrogant arsy comment from "Veinglory?"

Originally posted by Cliff Clavin
Yeah thats me, but did you read the whole post.....
Yes, I did read the whole post.
Originally posted by Cliff Clavin
I used to read Fiction many years ago and lots of it too. But I haven't read fiction now for 15 or so years, except for "1984." The reason is as I say I don't want to have some other writers influence on my own style. I read lots of Non-Fiction though, so i've got a good idea on how to put things together. Is this wrong? If so why?
Well, reading non-fiction will give you plenty of factual information and ideas for the background of your novel.

I firmly believe that any aspiring writer should read lots; not only in their chosen genre, but widely. Of course you're going to find yourself unconsciously imitating the style of your favourite writers at first, until you manage to develop and refine a style and a voice of your own.

A more practical reason for continuing to read fiction, particularly in your chosen genre, is that it's absolutely vital to have a good idea of what is currently acceptable to present day readers and editors. It does sound unduly calculated, but anyone who aims to be published needs to know what will and won't make it onto the shelves. For example, much as I love the novels of Agatha Christie, she'd never get published in the modern world of crime fiction. If you were, for example, into crime fiction about serial killers, you'd need to know exactly what level of grim detail is acceptable, and what would not be grisly enough!

If you don't aim to be published, then fair enough. You write as you see fit. However, I do agree wholeheartedly with the person who responded to your post; how do you intend to become a good writer if you don't study the masters?
Originally posted by Cliff Clavin
All because I dare to be different doesn't mean I won't succeed. I never went on the site asll cocky and stuff. I only introduced myself and "Veinglory" attacked me! It does say under his/her name that they are a Mod.

Now surely you or anyone would give a Newbie the benifit of the doubt and enourage them to do a Novel from a different angle to the Norm. All I was hoping for was to get some advice on the best way to start. Once i've started, I know it will flow then.
No, it doesn't mean that you won't suceed; but in my opinion it reduces your chances of success significantly. Surely if you want advice about how to start a novel, one of the best answers would be to study how others - particularly how others in your own genre - have done it. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.
Originally posted by Cliff Clavin
Now if i'd gone on all Cocky and Arrogant and said something like, "OK i'm going to write the best selling number 1 novel ever and I don't even read Novels, unlike you geeks. And my Novel will blow the socks of yours because I have no outside influence on my style!" Then I would expect arsy comments back. But no all I said was, I want to do this Novel with no intentions of being published; although it would be great if it happend, as its more of a personal ambition. Or words to those effect. So did I deserve the arrogant arsy comment from "Veinglory?"
I don't think Veinglory did attack you at all; infact, s/he wished you every success! I agree with his/her comment that you can't become a writer of fiction unless novels are part of your life. It simply doesn't make any sort of sense to me.

I forgot to mention in my earlier post about helpful books for writers that Stephen King's 'On Writing' is excellent. Even if you're not into horror fiction, I would definately suggest checking it out.

Cheers PPN

It still read as a arsey post to me. May have just been how I read it, I don't know.

I'm still going to go it my way. I recon i'm going to experiment with a few openings. As for the "grimness level" what my Novel will hit, I recon it could be too heavy, rather than be too tame, or at least thats my current intention.

As you've probably noticed I have a petty grim view of the World we live in, this will translate to my book too. Only thing i'm really worried about is the Grammer side and it ending up being too short!!! The grammer side should be OK afte I get it proof read though.

The Telegraph is starting a column about writing a novel. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/01/07/bnovelinayear.xml You may like to check it out.