A Kent builder claims he was called racist by Jobcentre staff, after his advert for a carpenter said the person must be able to speak and read English.

While the irons in the PC fire, is this PC going too far?

Taken from BBC News online (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4579056.stm)

Sheffields opinions please - in English.

I dont know what to say, Its the 1st time I have ever seen a serious post from you. :o

I was just thinking the same Spyro, although his last words make up for it! :D

Another load of tripe from the do-gooders fueling the right wing. Hopefully they'll come out with a full apology to the guy.

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
While the irons in the PC fire, is this PC going too far?

Taken from BBC News online (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4579056.stm)

Sheffields opinions please - in English. well spotted don,suppose the man has a point,and it is his buissiness,i did notice as well while reading the bbc post that the advert at the side says they are to outlaw ageism, is this so that people who are unemployed can be given work up to their seventieth birthday , to fit in with the governments plan on retirement ?

It is certainly a load of tripe. This country is going PC mad. What is wrong with expecting an employee, who is to be employed in an English speaking country, being asked to speak English? :confused:

Then again it does say he 'claims' to have been called racist. Who knows if this is actually true, or just been twisted.


EDIT: Please disregard my opinion as Don has stated Sheffielders opinions only :thumbsup:

Slight over-reaction on his part I believe.

Originally posted by kathythebean
Ahhhh diddums...did he recieve a letter? Which said he 'may be in breach'? Which has been proved to be a mistake?

I can see how he would be traumatised!

had you been the person who had received this letter im sure you would have been telling everyone who would listen (including making a thread on here) about it all.......

i wasn't going to respond till i saw such a stupid post.

to be fair..... i cant understand why he has put "english speakers only" unless of course he was getting applicants who was unable to.

but for them to turn round and state "Where employers discriminate against job applicants on the basis of race, they may be in breach of the Race Relations Act." is (as mr osman says) Ridiculous....... had he stated he only wanted an english person working for him, then fair enough, but he only wanted an english speaker

Oh okay, I'll edit my post to make it a little less harsh. I do think he's over-reacted though.

It doesn't mean the countries gone mad, does it? Really?

In fact people get faulty letters from the government agencies all the time - I got a letter telling me I owed a load of council tax even though I am a student - nothing to do with political correctness though so of course the BBC didn't care when I phoned them!

Originally posted by kathythebean
It doesn't mean the countries gone mad, does it? Really?

nope, just parts of :thumbsup:

like i say, im still not entirely convinced as to why he wanted english speakers in the first place..... seems a strange comment to make. so perhaps we havent got all the full details

Nah says in the article that he needed people to converse with clients and get technical details right. Fair enough.

Its just the story makes out he got a letter saying

"Dear Sir,

Her majestys government believes you are a racist. Please present yourself for hanging" or some such when it doesn't look like thats the case.

Well,

If I wanted someone working for me in any capacity I'd want them to speak English, because, to be frank, my foreign languages suck and gestures don't convey much information. I don't see any reason why that's a problematic request; I'd also insist on them being able to write in the English language.

The guy was told that his request might breach the Race Relations Act. Now, without being funny, I'd say that the first thing that would go through my mind at that point is that I am being accused of bein racist. After all, you don't get that thrown at you for a parking offence.

If you get prosecuted under something like the RRA, then, as the saying goes 'mud sticks' - this is the sort of deterrence that I was talking about on the Political Correctness thread yesterday. You're going to change your advertisement for a quiet life - or, if it were me, tell the Job Centre where they can put their rule book and advertise elsewhere. And once you've changed your advert, for no good reason other than a beaurocrat telling you that you 'may have breached the RRA' with such a simple request, then the PC policy has done it's work - it's changed behaviour and modified discourse without a figurative shot being fired.

Joe

In fact people get faulty letters from the government agencies all the time - I got a letter telling me I owed a load of council tax even though I am a student - nothing to do with political correctness though so of course the BBC didn't care when I phoned them!

That is completely different, this letter was not a standard computer generated letter sent to an occupant of an address that has an outstanding council tax bill.

Nothing faulty about the letter, it struck me that this is a standard letter sent warning an advertiser what might happen. Note the wording:

"Where employers discriminate against job applicants on the basis of race, they may be in breach of the Race Relations Act."

The use of MAY being the operative word. The jobcentre wrote to the potential advertiser pointing out that they may be in breach and asking for clarification. This was given and the case was closed. Except mr jobsworth-finder general decided to make an issue of it.

Is this PC baiting gone mad?

Or would it have been preferable for the jobcentre to post the ad thereby laying the advertiser open to claims of racial discrimination? This way, the possibility was removed.

It is really just scaremongering again.

The article clearly states:

"The Department for Work and Pensions said each vacancy was judged on its own merits and Mr Osmon's language restrictions did not breach the act."
.........

"The Commission for Racial Equality told BBC South East Today it was reasonable for an employer to require employees to speak English in the work setting, particularly in customer-facing roles."

If you simply want to LIVE in Australia, one of the requirements is to read, write and speak correct English. So there.

If, in the remit of the post, the successful candidate would be required to read technical documents, printed or written in English, and to communicate with clients, presumably English speakers, ( considering we are in an English speaking country), it is not unreasonable to ask for a competent level of written and spoken English. However, the furore would tend to suggest that the person offering the job may not have been inclined to offer the post to anyone with a 'non white' face. THAT is racism, asking for ability in the national language isn't.

Originally posted by lizzmobile
If you simply want to LIVE in Australia, one of the requirements is to read, write and speak correct English. So there.

Most people on here would be screwed then :P

Originally posted by kathythebean
Slight over-reaction on his part I believe.
And an overreaction by the people who wrote him the letter in the first place as they obviously didn't know what they were talking about. Just because a stupid individual civil servant writes something it doesn't make it the government policy or proof that we are being swamped by political correctness from 'them'.

Yet another non-story blown out of all proportion by the press, and people who read stuff and don't think about it.

Did anyone who has got upset about it actually read down the the bottom of the story?

The Commission for Racial Equality told BBC South East Today it was reasonable for an employer to require employees to speak English in the work setting, particularly in customer-facing roles.

The issue is being taken up by Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Philip Hammond.

He said: "I think it's nonsense.

"The ability to speak English, like the ability to speak Spanish or French, is a qualification.

"I will be seeking an assurance that Jobcentre Plus will be instructed to treat a requirement by an employer for a linguistic skill, as precisely that, a requirement for a qualification and not a sign of latent racism."

The good news is he got a fluent English speaking Asian Carpenter in the end - called Ahmed Ashed.


I thankyou all - esp the BBC (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/kirky1963/bitepicture.jpg) :clap: :clap: :clap:

If I went for a job in Khazicstan and couldn't speak the lingo I wouldn't be surprised that I didn't get offered the position.
Why should it be any different here?! :loopy:

I personally don't think it's got anything to do with being PC.
I think it's about some people feeling intimidated by being labelled "racist"; therefore kicking up a fuss about silly things like this... If there is one thing I hate almost as much as racism, it has to be "weak" people who don't know the difference between real racism and real life.

I was once in an Indian restaurant with a girl and I ordered omlette and chips (can't stand Indian food) :gag:. I asked the waiter for Ham & Mushrooms in my omlette... Never dawned on me that they don't eat Ham. The girl I was with was so embarrased, and kicked up a fuss for offending them. She said
that I was so out of order and had probably upset the guy for the rest of his shift!!! She a real hatred for Liver and also used to be a waitress; I asked her how she would have felt if one of her customers had asked for Liver, would she have been upset and thought they were taking the p***??? She never did reply... :rolleyes:

Ironically he is not being racist.

He is taking into account the fact that there are people in the country that may not speak English as their first language. Simple as...

Lizzmobile! Where did you get that load of rubbish from? If you catch a taxi in Sydney and the driver speakes English,then you got lucky. lots of people don't speak English when they arrive and never learn it. :)

regards Pete

It amazes me that the Job Centre has such double standards when it comes to advertising for vacancies.
There are many adverts looking for people that speak different languages other than English that are not classed as being racist.
Community support staff for the different ethnic minorities have to be able to speak the language of the community that they are supposed to be supporting.

This is not the first time someone has been told that they may be submitting a racial advert by requesting an English speaking applicant.
A goodfriend of mine who advertised for an English speaking Chef was also tarred with the racist B.S.

This is England, our language is English, you would expect to employ someone that can speak it and be able to understand what it is that the employer expects without having to learn another language.

My opinion, If anyone comes to this country, they should be able to speak and understand the English language.

I personally would never employ anyone that couldnt speak my language as it is not logical and could be dangerous.

Originally posted by Tony

Yet another non-story blown out of all proportion by the press, and people who read stuff and don't think about it.

Did anyone who has got upset about it actually read down the the bottom of the story?

Looks like some have not even read the thread properly :hihi:


The issue is being taken up by Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Philip Hammond.

He said: "I think it's nonsense".

Lizzmobile! Where did you get that load of rubbish from? If you catch a taxi in Sydney and the driver speakes English,then you got lucky. lots of people don't speak English when they arrive and never learn it.

A close friend of mine emigrated to Australia, a French native, and as part of the emigration criteria she was required to speak etc English. I can only go on what I've been told from other's experience.

it was just some jobsworth civil servant who didn't understand the legislation. There will always be overzealous beurocrats, it hardly means that the entire government is on some insane PC crusade.

Originally posted by SWFC00

I was once in an Indian restaurant with a girl and I ordered omlette and chips (can't stand Indian food) :gag:. I asked the waiter for Ham & Mushrooms in my omlette... Never dawned on me that they don't eat Ham. The girl I was with was so embarrased, and kicked up a fuss for offending them. She said
that I was so out of order and had probably upset the guy for the rest of his shift!!! She a real hatred for Liver and also used to be a waitress; I asked her how she would have felt if one of her customers had asked for Liver, would she have been upset and thought they were taking the p***??? She never did reply... :rolleyes:

SWFC00, it might be that she was taking her embarassment out on you , rather than accepting that your "gaffe" was a genuine mistake/ oversight.

It's called "displacement".

The thing she "ought" to have done was probably let you apologise to the staff member, for the gaffe, and just shrug it off, after making a mental note to endavour not to let that happen again)

I was dreadfully embarrassed about a faux pas I made, as a kid, when I went to my best friend's house for tea.

Ruth was Jewish. I didn't know the rules for Jewish people, about "keeping Kosher" then...

Ruth's mum made a quiche, for our tea. and I piped up "my mum puts bacon in ours,, it's called a quiche lorraine."

Whoops! But hey, although I can blush to this day remembering that faux pas, I learnt! Bacon isn't Kosher!

I now know, without fail,that, for Jewish people, Bacon is taboo. It's something I won't ever forget!

PT

There are plenty of Jobs advertised in this country asking for French speakers and German speakers etc. I have also seen jobs adverts requiring Urdu and Arabic, so I am not sure what all the fuss is about. I think the comments of Philip Hammond best summed it up:

"I will be seeking an assurance that Jobcentre Plus will be instructed to treat a requirement by an employer for a linguistic skill, as precisely that, a requirement for a qualification and not a sign of latent racism."

Originally posted by Cyclone
it was just some jobsworth civil servant who didn't understand the legislation. There will always be overzealous beurocrats, it hardly means that the entire government is on some insane PC crusade.

Yes, it could have been someone who was following the rules to the letter. It could also have been someone who was frightened of being accused of not observing equal opps and so going over the mark. Or someone may have raised it with a line manager who then misinterpreted it and took it further. Thats what happens when all this kind of thing is done via call centres; there is less chance that someone will be able to understand the subtleties of what was being requested for the ad, and hence more room for error.

Staff in public employment have to be incredibly careful, and in the long run its better that they err on the side of being too PC than risking causing offense.