In the beginning, there was ….

Well, nobody really knows what there was at the beginning. Some people think they know, and some people are wrong. There may be one person, somewhere, who is completely, totally and utterly right, but it doesn’t really matter. Cosmic events that took place umpteen billion years ago were important then, yes, but only in as much as they created the universe we call home. This then led to the creation of the Milky Way, which gave birth to a pretty insignificant star (insignificant in the grand scheme of things) known locally as Sol, and eventually the planet known as Terra was formed and life began there. A short time later, mere seconds in astronomical terms, you took your first breath and the midwife spanked you for your temerity. There we have the complete history of life on Earth, in a nutshell. Not really all that impressive, is it?

The problem with all of this history is there are people out there who truly believe they need to understand it. Scientists, philosophers, religious teachers, politicians, artists, all completely focused on the idea of finding out How We Got Here. It’s insane, I tell you. Surely a much better goal would be finding out Why We Are Here or What Can We Do To Help? The past is gone, finished. No more.

I admit it is impossible to deny that the past has an effect on the present, and to some degree the future as well, but at the same time it is impossible to think we can do anything to change it. It has already happened. The consequences won’t be any different for our understanding of them. Get over it.

So instead of scouring the electro-magnetic shadows of the birth of the universe, we need to start looking inwards, to start exploring the ways in which we, as just one of the animal species on this planet, can strive to make the future more bearable. Instead of looking for faces in the fire, we need to start looking at the tangible, the real, the immediate. Who knows, maybe by understanding the here-and-now, we will be better able to understand the future.

Socrates, one of the greatest philosophers of all time, considered by many to be the father of modern philosophy, tried to teach us that knowledge grows from ignorance, but only after you admit to that ignorance. We are constantly being bombarded by facts and figures, to such a degree we think we know everything. The truth of the matter is we know almost nothing. "There is more in Heaven and in Earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy…” All of our science, all of the things we are taught about the world as children, is based on assumptions and observations made by scientists. What if they’re wrong?

What goes up, must come down. But why? Is it gravity, or something else we haven’t observed yet? Common scientific dogma proves it is gravity, but nobody can say with absolute conviction that gravity is the only thing at work here. In fact, science now tells us gravity isn’t the only force at work. However, before we learned about sub-atomic particles, the electric universe, chaos theory, strange attractors and all the other trendy theories, did they have an effect on things? Or did they only come into existence when we discovered them? Is science nothing more than a sexy new religion?

The other dilemma we have is the more we think we know, the more harm we cause in the name of progress. This planet is teeming with life. The human race is just one animal out of millions of species. We make up an incredibly small percentage of the life on this planet and yet we have had the biggest impact on that life. New species are being discovered every week. At the same time, we are driving hundreds of species every year to the brink of the precipice, either by direct action or by ignorant inaction. In the last thousand years alone we have eradicated hundreds of unique species: the Dodo (c. 1690), the Steller’s Sea Cow (c. 1770), the Tarpan (c. 1885), the Thylacine (c. 1935), the Pyrenean Ibex (c. 2000) - a more complete list than I could compile can be found on The Extinction Website (http://extinct.petermaas.nl/extinct/). We have even managed to hunt an entire race of humans (http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/tasmania.html) to extinction in Tasmania. We have done all of this consciously, arrogantly believing ourselves to be the dominant, most advanced inhabitants of the planet. When was the last time a dolphin blew something up just to make a point?

The human race is fortunate enough to have fantastic potential. We are the only creature on this planet we can categorically confirm to be self-aware. We suspect other creatures may be self-aware, but the only species we can be one hundred percent sure about is our own. For this one reason, we need to take a little responsibility for our actions, as a race and as individuals. We need to stop looking for the answers to questions that don’t really matter and instead need to start looking for solutions to the problems we have caused. If we don’t end the cycle of pain and destruction we will quickly become the victims of our own mistakes.

The entire world is slowly beginning to wake up from a bad dream, a dream in which we are the monsters, but is it already too late? Do we, as a race, have the necessary conviction to change the way we think? Have we got the strength, as a species, to work together on the solutions? Can we put aside religious, political, intellectual and emotional differences for long enough to save ourselves? Have we evolved enough to be able to put aside all of our hopes and dreams, to abandon all of our goals in order to put right all the wrong we’ve done? Only time will tell.

Be well this festive season, my cherubs. I hope my rant hasn't dulled your enjoyment of this time of 'peace on earth and good will to all'.

Yours ever faithfully

Byron's Shadow

errrrrrrrrm WHAT??????????????:confused:

too many words mate....!

The exploration of space is no more than the exploration of the self. Religion, philosophy and science - all stem from the need to understand what we are, where we came from and why we are important here and now.

As for hunting things to extinction, that's just one of the harsh realities of the universe in which we find ourselves. As you so eloquantly said - "Get over it." :)

Congratulations on another top post, sir :thumbsup:

I very much agree with the sentiments expressed.

THE important question to me too is "Why are we here?" and not "How did we get here?". Looking forwards, instead of backwards, moving us along. (Surely, the any case, the Why question will also answer the How question?)

The human race is an amazing creation - it can soar to the heights with acts of love and devotion and is capable of the most incredible sacrifices, but it is also capable of plummeting to the depths, with acts of the most extreme malice and wickedness.

We know so much less than we think we do - although we do know a lot, there is so much more to learn and understand. With a little bit more humility, the human race could become so much greater than it is now. "There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy" is so very apt for our scientists to listen to.

Having said that, I don't think there is anything the human race cannot ultimately achieve, if we apply our hearts and minds and souls.

Many people seem to think we are fast approaching a time of great spiritual change, where the false gods of materialism and money will be thrown aside for spiritual enlightenment and individual growth. As you say, Byronshadow, "the entire world is slowly beginning to wake up from a bad dream". Let us sincerely hope so.

StarSparkle :)

why say something in 2 sentances when you can say it in 2hours? :hihi:

Has anyone actually read the whole of that post i read the first few lines and got lost then couldnt be bothered to start again they were far too many words to read

Er, what are you on ? Ill have some of that !:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Bizzy_Lizzy
Has anyone actually read the whole of that post i read the first few lines and got lost then couldnt be bothered to start again they were far too many words to read

Yes..... it just requires a bit of thought.....

StarSparkle

Originally posted by Bizzy_Lizzy
Has anyone actually read the whole of that post i read the first few lines and got lost then couldnt be bothered to start again they were far too many words to read

No I got cross eyed half way through and lost myself, or is too much beer consumption ? a few more pictures would have been better.

this is just showing how education mixed with a cocktail of prescription drugs can be bad for you :hihi:

Originally posted by Bizzy_Lizzy
Has anyone actually read the whole of that post i read the first few lines and got lost then couldnt be bothered to start again they were far too many words to read

Yes, of course I've actually read the post.

It's great to see someone posting thought provoking threads on here! Thanks, Byronshadow!

However, given that it requires some thought and concentration I can understand that some may give up on it. :)

Joe

Either the human species increases its' intelligence vastly P.D.Q. ... Or we exterminate ourselves and this planet.

The latter seems a more likely outcome, though it's perhaps slightly less likely than it was a few decades ago... it's still highly probable IMO.

If I'm right, then we can at least console ourselves with the thought that for millenia to come, other inhabitants of the universe will no doubt be grateful for the fact that we didn't spread and infect them! ;)

Originally posted by Pseudonym
Either the human species increases its' intelligence vastly P.D.Q. ...


Unfortunately, if that is required to save us, most of the postings on this thread so far would suggest the human race is f***** :(

StarSparkle

The entire world is slowly beginning to wake up from a bad dream, a dream in which we are the monsters, but is it already too late? Do we, as a race, have the necessary conviction to change the way we think? Have we got the strength, as a species, to work together on the solutions? Can we put aside religious, political, intellectual and emotional differences for long enough to save ourselves? Have we evolved enough to be able to put aside all of our hopes and dreams, to abandon all of our goals in order to put right all the wrong we’ve done? Only time will tell.

Three points to ponder. The first was posited by Einstein, I think. He commented to the effect that we can't expect the solutions to our problems to be generated by the same type of thinking that gave us the problems in the first place.

If we construct an intellectual model and police it's borders, making it difficult for scientists and technologists (for example) to think outside the box and maintain funding, can we genuinely expect to get the solutions we require, which may require some seriously 'off the wall' theories to get there.

The second is 'Are we smart enough?' Is there an actual limit to the capacity of the human brain to engage with certain classes of problem? If there is, and the problem classes are those critical for our survival, then we need to be able to at least construct artificial intelligences to solve those classes of problems for us.

The third point is time. We have to fix it before the world fixes us. Prioritising our brightest minds to solve the problems of our survival would seem to be important to me. Instead, we seem to have a large number of very bright engineers working on television in your mobile phone and games machines with more computing power than was used to get to the moon. We genuinely are amusing ourselves to death.

Joe

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Congratulations on another top post, sir :thumbsup:

I very much agree with the sentiments expressed.

THE important question to me too is "Why are we here?" and not "How did we get here?". Looking forwards, instead of backwards, moving us along. (Surely, the any case, the Why question will also answer the How question?)

StarSparkle :)

My thanks to you StarSparkle. You're right, of course, the Why is far more important than the How, in almost all cases.

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Many people seem to think we are fast approaching a time of great spiritual change, where the false gods of materialism and money will be thrown aside for spiritual enlightenment and individual growth.

Indeed, I myself am hoping for a change in the group conscience away from things as crass as organised religion of any form, be it God, Gods or The Mighty Dollar.

Don't misunderstand - religion plays an important part in everybody's life but the only true religion is the unique form we all practice individually. Jesu Christi was the only person to truly practice and preach "Christianity" - his twelve disciples each added their own cultural and social slant to his words, and so on. There are over six and a half billion religions on this mudball we call home. As long as your own spirituality gives you peace, it must be right ... for you.

Originally posted by tslogf74
The exploration of space is no more than the exploration of the self. Religion, philosophy and science - all stem from the need to understand what we are, where we came from and why we are important here and now.

Succinctly put, my friend.

Originally posted by tslogf74
As for hunting things to extinction, that's just one of the harsh realities of the universe in which we find ourselves. As you so eloquantly said - "Get over it." :)

He he he. The disappearance of a species by nature's hand is an entirely different turn of events to the same disappearance by the hand of mankind. That said, there is the potential argument that as natural creatures ourselves we are merely Her executioners. We are the only creature (as far as I am aware) that prides itself in its ability to destroy. However, we are not the only creature who hunts for pleasure...

Originally posted by pattricia
Er, what are you on ? Ill have some of that !:thumbsup:

I would sell you some but I used it all to write the original post. ;)

Originally posted by MTheo
this is just showing how education mixed with a cocktail of prescription drugs can be bad for you :hihi:

I never get my drugs by prescription. Only the finest recreational narcotics for this sybarite, if you please...

Originally posted by byronshadow
Don't misunderstand - religion plays an important part in everybody's life No, not everybody's....it is definitely not important in mine!:rant:

Originally posted by JoeP
Yes, of course I've actually read the post.

It's great to see someone posting thought provoking threads on here! Thanks, Byronshadow!

However, given that it requires some thought and concentration I can understand that some may give up on it. :)

Joe

Thank you JoeP.

I'm glad that there are people out there who actually do take the time to think. I was fast beginning to think that the intellectuals amongst us were dying out...

Originally posted by Ann_x
No, not everybody's....it is definitely not important in mine!:rant:

Really? Would you consider yourself an atheist or an agnostic? Either way round is a form of religion...


Religion: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardour and faith; something considered to be of supreme importance

Are you telling me you believe nothing?

Originally posted by byronshadow
Thank you JoeP.

I'm glad that there are people out there who actually do take the time to think. I was fast beginning to think that the intellectuals amongst us were dying out...

I should be most hurt, and not at all happy, if I thought that was in any way aimed at me, Byronshadow..... :suspect:

StarSparkle

Originally posted by JoeP
Three points to ponder. The first was posited by Einstein, I think. He commented to the effect that we can't expect the solutions to our problems to be generated by the same type of thinking that gave us the problems in the first place.

If we construct an intellectual model and police it's borders, making it difficult for scientists and technologists (for example) to think outside the box and maintain funding, can we genuinely expect to get the solutions we require, which may require some seriously 'off the wall' theories to get there.

I'm reminded of the current debate between the quantum-world school of thought and the electric-universe school of thought here. Both allow for complex models of reality that make sense, but both have gaps that can't be explained.

The second is 'Are we smart enough?' Is there an actual limit to the capacity of the human brain to engage with certain classes of problem? If there is, and the problem classes are those critical for our survival, then we need to be able to at least construct artificial intelligences to solve those classes of problems for us.

To be honest, I think the answer lies in a number of different directionhs. As well as evolving technologically to face the future, we also need to reacquaint ourselves with our instincts, our animal minds. After all, our instincts are there to guide us away from danger and harm...

The third point is time. We have to fix it before the world fixes us. Prioritising our brightest minds to solve the problems of our survival would seem to be important to me. Instead, we seem to have a large number of very bright engineers working on television in your mobile phone and games machines with more computing power than was used to get to the moon. We genuinely are amusing ourselves to death.

Well said. I must admit that I am amused by gadgets, but they are nothing more than toys and tools. I was born with everything I needed to survive in this world - a body, a mind and a family group. Anything else is just window dressing that society says I 'need'...

Thanks for your thoughts, JoeP

Originally posted by StarSparkle
I should be most hurt, and not at all happy, if I thought that was in any way aimed at me, Byronshadow..... :suspect:

StarSparkle

Of course it wasn't aimed at you StarSparkle. You are one of the diamonds in the rough, just as Joe is. No offence was intended, my dear. :wave:

Originally posted by byronshadow
Really? Would you consider yourself an atheist or an agnostic? Either way round is a form of religion... No, I do not consider myself an agnostic or an atheist.Originally posted by byronshadow
Are you telling me you believe nothing? In what should I be believing?

I am me, an individual human being, and that is all I need to believe in, thank you very much!:rant:

BTW, I resent the implication that we're not intelligent just because we don't wish to waste our time reading the whole of your OP.

Originally posted by byronshadow
Thank you JoeP.

I'm glad that there are people out there who actually do take the time to think. I was fast beginning to think that the intellectuals amongst us were dying out...
Just because people do not share your views doesnt mean they are not intellectuals, big posts can be overwhelming. You seem to go out of your way to make your posts seem intellectual instead of making them accessible for joe public (not just joe p ;) ) . And you will just distance yourself from more people if you group the rest of us as something a little more intelligent than a cow turd.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by byronshadow
Of course it wasn't aimed at you StarSparkle. You are one of the diamonds in the rough, just as Joe is. No offence was intended, my dear. :wave:

Glad to hear it, sweetie :wave:

StarSparkle

Originally posted by Ann_x
I am me, an individual human being, and that is all I need to believe in, thank you very much!

Which just proves my point, surely. You believe in yourself. As Robert Heinlein so rightly said, 'Thou Art God'. The very fact that you believe in your own existence is religion, pure and simple. There doesn't need to be a Supreme Being for religion to exist.

An alternative angle: If God didn't exist, it would be necessary for man to invent Him.

BTW, I resent the implication that we're not intelligent just because we don't wish to waste our time reading the whole of your OP.

Did I imply you lacked intelligence? I thought I'd questioned people's intellect. That's an entirely different matter altogether.

Originally posted by MTheo
Just because people do not share your views doesnt mean they are not intellectuals, big posts can be overwhelming. You seem to go out of your way to make your posts seem intellectual instead of making them accessible for joe public (not just joe p ;) ) . And you will just distance yourself from more people if you group the rest of us as something a little more intelligent than a cow turd.

:thumbsup:

I think we're mixing intellect and intelligence here - the two are entirely different.

I was merely questioning the willingness of the crowd to ponder weighty subjects. The very fact that they are weighty subjects means that the posts I write will generally be slightly longer than most people like.

In a way, you've validated the argument yourself - we live in a disposable culture, where everything needs to be fast, while-u-wait. I can't abide this constant hurrying everybody seems to be suffering, and so I refuse to pander to it. If you do not want to stretch your mind and enter into reasonable discourse, please refrain from launching vitriolic attacks on those who do.

On the other hand, if you feel the need to snipe at somebody merely for voicing an opinion on a topic other than football (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50224) or alcohol (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79744) then you should not be offended if that somebody snipes back.

Originally posted by byronshadow
I think we're mixing intellect and intelligence here - the two are entirely different.

I was merely questioning the willingness of the crowd to ponder weighty subjects. The very fact that they are weighty subjects means that the posts I write will generally be slightly longer than most people like.

In a way, you've validated the argument yourself - we live in a disposable culture, where everything needs to be fast, while-u-wait. I can't abide this constant hurrying everybody seems to be suffering, and so I refuse to pander to it. If you do not want to stretch your mind and enter into reasonable discourse, please refrain from launching vitriolic attacks on those who do.

On the other hand, if you feel the need to snipe at somebody merely for voicing an opinion on a topic other than football (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50224) or alcohol (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79744) then you should not be offended if that somebody snipes back.
i dont drink alcohol or go to football matches, thankyou for the assumption though.

Obviously you are saying your subjects are more important then other peoples....fine I wish you well confined to the dull exsistence you portray.

You need to do more then swallow a thesaurus to appear intelligent or intellectual to me, you have to show some decency, and no amount of words can detract from your defence stance to anyone who dares do disagree.

Feel free to check my grammer and spelling, it may not be upto your standards but im not anal enough to care. I bid you farewell :thumbsup:

Originally posted by MTheo
i dont drink alcohol or go to football matches, thankyou for the assumption though.

Obviously you are saying your subjects are more important then other peoples....fine I wish you well confined to the dull exsistence you portray.

You need to do more then swallow a thesaurus to appear intelligent or intellectual to me, you have to show some decency, and no amount of words can detract from your defence stance to anyone who dares do disagree.

Feel free to check my grammer and spelling, it may not be upto your standards but im not anal enough to care. I bid you farewell :thumbsup:

Should I point out your first response to this thread? Or maybe your second?

Or should I point out that you're as guilty as I for jumping to conclusions? My comments about football and alcohol were not intended to be about you personally and I apologise for the misunderstanding.

Likewise, I do not consider my own thoughts to be more important than another's, other than to myself (yes, I am self-absorbed :))

I like that people don't share my thoughts - it proves that we're all individual. I like that people are willing to counter my own arguments - it opens the door to discourse, which in turn leads to mutually beneficial solutions to mutually aggravating problems.

That said, you're right - this back-and-forth sniping gets us nowhere so I offer you a flag of truce.

Please accept my apologies. After all, I'm only human.