There was an item on the BBC news a couple of nights ago which demonstrated that the cost of buying the items needed for your Christmas dinner (turkey, vegetables, eggs for the stuffing etc), came to about £20 more if you selected organic instead of non-organic items.

Personally, the only organic items I buy are free-range eggs (the Woodland eggs are particularly nice, and available from Sainsburys, by the way) and occasionally chicken.

A couple of people responded to my earlier comments about organic vegetables in a previous thread. However, as those comments took a previous thread about aspartame off-topic, I thought that the subject of organic food deserved a thread all of its own.

Any thoughts?

Personally I don't and wouldn't buy organic food. For a start there is no clear scientific evidence that proves organic is better for you, in fact I have come across articles which point out that that naturally occuring fungus grown on crops (killed by pesticides) are actually carcinogenic. However, again I don't think there is any clear evidence to suggest organic food is bad for you.

At the moment branding food organic is just a way of ripping off people who THINK they are actually being healthier.

I feel the same about GM food, which I am quite happy to eat until the scientists can prove without a doubt that it will cause me any harm.

Spicey, I agree wholeheartedly. I buy organic eggs and chicken primarily due to animal welfare issues, although I do maintain that free-range eggs (not necessarily organic) taste better than battery eggs. I guess that is a side issue.

From a taste point of view, I don't think that organic veg necessarily tastes better than non-organic. I find that if the veg is fresh, washed thoroughly (which is the case for organic veg too), and cooked appropriately, it tastes just fine.

I read an article the other day that the production of organic veg is also rather wasteful. Customers demand fruit and veg that looks good, and of course organic veg can be subject to a greater degree of pest attacks, necessitating chucking away a lot of the produce. Still, I suppose it's more fuel for the compost heap.

As for GM, that's another big Daily Mail-friendly scare story. The article that contributed massively to the whole 'Frankenstein food' furore (feeding rats GM and non-GM potatoes) was roundly discredited a few years ago. (No, I don't have the article to hand, but I'll dig it out after Christmas if anyone is really interested). The fat was in the fire by then though, rather like the Andrew Wakefield MMR uproar; another study completely and utterly discredited.

Before you write off organic food forever (or untill you begin to glow in the dark), I'm not sure who is right as there are scallywags on both ends of the argument. All I know is that here in the US, the food companies are not required to put truthfull labelling on food. Most of the usual fruit, like apples, grapes and strawberries look picture perfect and are absolutely tasteless. I first noticed the apples a couple of years ago when I took a couple of bites and forgot about it for an hour or so, when I got back to it, the missing bites area was still white, no oxidation, which is normal, plus it didn't taste of anything. They are selling this GM stuff to the poor countries as it is pest proof, but at what cost? Normal seeds will let you have a repeat crop two or three times, with GM you can only use the seed once, and from then on all your hard earned profit goes to buying the next seasons seed from...yes you guessed..theGM companies, who are raking it in. As for the aforementioned scientists, who do you think is funding their work? Now over here in the US, the food companies are trying to get their own version of what constitutes the term 'Organic' When the scientists do finally make a decision it's is usually already too late and the damage has been done.

Yes I buy organic - certainly with meat I'd rather eat something that's not been kept caged up in a shed and fattened at an unnatural rate.

It also tastes a site better in my opinion.

Ditto free range eggs as oppossed to battery farmed.

Harder to tell with shop bought veg - best flavour is freshly picked stuff from somebody's garden / allotment.

I never used to buy organic stuff,as I thought they were a rip off.However after reading an article in The Mail,it said that Organic milk was full of Omega 3, and other good minerals etc;which were a lot better than drinking ordinary milk.I found that it wasnt a lot dearer than ordinary milk,so I will get it in future.

I buy organic when I can.... usually from my local farm as I know the farmer but He still uses "treatments" (pesticides) in His cultivation because He wouldn't be able to make a profit from His crop as too much would be thrown away.... so I suppose it begs the question: is organic really organic and is it really worth paying over the odds for it?

Always buy organic, it's not that much dearer than non organic stuff now.
It's not about it tasting better, I don't think organic is any more nutritious than non organic but it come in a far more natural state than non organic. Less chemicals, additives, hormones and antibiotics in organic food. Got to be better for you.

There's an interesting article in todays Observer magazine about the production of non-organic milk.

It says the lifespan of the average dairy cow has gone from 25 years to 5 years, that cows are routinely injected with growth hormones to allow the cow to produce 3 calves a year, 20% of the UK dairy herd has a physiological abnormality, diseases such as mastitis are controlled with antibiotics, traces of which can find their way into dairy products and they're often fed on GM feed.

Personally I think buying organic milk or avoiding milk altogether (I drink rice milk) is the only option, that kind of farming is plain wrong.

Organic in supermarkets is one heck of a lot more expensive than their non-organic produce. I used to buy organic chicken and eggs (can't afford the vegetables too), but when I went into M&S on Friday, 2 chicken breasts were a whopping £6 :o

I always buy organic eggs as my family used to keep chickens and allow them to run about, and the eggs were much nicer. Also I know that chickens like to have plenty of space, and they are extremely sociable, and can almost become like pets, they are so tame.

Most egg farms/factories only keep the hens until they finish their first laying period, then they are killed. Seeing as they only stop laying for a few weeks this is ridiculous. We used to get ours free from a farmer as they entered this stage, and they actually live up to 10 years, and can be productive for most of that time.

Organic in supermarkets is one heck of a lot more expensive than their non-organic produce. I used to buy organic chicken and eggs (can't afford the vegetables too), but when I went into M&S on Friday, 2 chicken breasts were a whopping £6 :o

Well, what does that tell you about the bargain priced non-organic chicken? You get what you pay for and you have to worry about the welfare of the chickens involved in producing non-organic, non-free range chicken products.

As for the price of organic veg, we've had this discussion before in another thread... but for what its worth, it all depends what's in season and where you buy from. I manage to buy mainly organic without spending silly money. But even if a certain item is more expensive, I think its worth extra money to know that something has less chemicals in it. I don't want brocolli that's perma-fresh, that doesn't wilt as its had so much crap sprayed onto it. I want normal veg, grown by traditional methods with care and concern for the environment.

Well, what does that tell you about the bargain priced non-organic chicken? You get what you pay for and you have to worry about the welfare of the chickens involved in producing non-organic, non-free range chicken products.

As for the price of organic veg, we've had this discussion before in another thread... but for what its worth, it all depends what's in season and where you buy from. I manage to buy mainly organic without spending silly money. But even if a certain item is more expensive, I think its worth extra money to know that something has less chemicals in it. I don't want brocolli that's perma-fresh, that doesn't wilt as its had so much crap sprayed onto it. I want normal veg, grown by traditional methods with care and concern for the environment.

I totally understand that, but I simply cannot afford that kind of money. I looked into organic fruit/veg delivery but that was silly money like £23 a box. If I had the money I would, without hesitation buy everything organic but if I did that now I'd be bankrupt.

I used to get a box of organic veg delivered from "beanies", cost much less than that.
Stopped when we went on holiday and just haven't been back to re-start. Only ever had one box we weren't happy with - it was full of some flowering weed that we didn't dare eat.
http://www.beanieswholefoods.co.uk/deliveries.htm

edit - it was the large bag without potatoes £8

Organic veg doesn't always taste noticeably better than non-organic, but sometimes tastes a lot better. This may be due to the fact that organic producers may be growing more varieties than those sold in supermarkets, and some varieties are tastier.

I buy them mainly to reduce the amount of pesticides thrown around the countryside, and the negative effect this has on wildlife.

There is research coming through which suggests on average 80% more species on organic land than on neighbouring non-organic land.

I do try and buy organic veg and fruit, and do think that the carrots are usually sweeter.

I always buy free range eggs as battery ones make me smell very bad :gag:

I ususally buy all my meat products from the farm shop in Rivelin valley, and it is lovely.

i find that organic food whether it be veg,fruit,meat or dairy, tastes loads better and whilst it is more expensive it has come down in price over the last few years. I think the most economical way is to shop around-ie veg from beanies,meat fom local farm shops etc-unfortunatley it all takes time-still id rather do that than give my hard earned cash to the corrupt giants that call themselves supermarkets!

Some of it might taste better. Much of it you think tastes better because it goves you a nice smug glow while you're eating it ;).

It may be cheaper than it was a few years ago, but it's still far too expensive to be a sensible option for many people.

It may be cheaper than it was a few years ago, but it's still far too expensive to be a sensible option for many people.

Depends what you call expensive, if you're comparing it to buying 3 for £5 ready meals then organic food is expensive.

If you use your marginally more expensive organic veg to make meals from scratch then your money goes a long way plus you get loads more vitamins, fibre etc and it tastes amazing (like the organic leek, potato and sweet potato soup I've just made to take to work tomorrow..MMMMMmmmm!).

Depends what you call expensive, if you're comparing it to buying 3 for £5 ready meals then organic food is expensive.

If you use your marginally more expensive organic veg to make meals from scratch then your money goes a long way plus you get loads more vitamins, fibre etc and it tastes amazing (like the organic leek, potato and sweet potato soup I've just made to take to work tomorrow..MMMMMmmmm!).
I'm sensing déjà vu. Didn't we do this somewhere before... ;).

I don't agree on your point about vitmains. Frozen veg, which I use a great deal of, is chuck full of vitamins, whether it's organic or not. The key issue is whether the veg is fresh (or freshly frozen).

I also don't agree that organic veg is 'marginally' more expensive. I find that much of it is signifcantly more expensive than the non-organic equivalent.

I'm a student and i buy organic eggs and free range organic chicken (i don't buy any other meat) Yep it costs more but the eggs in particular taste much better! and i feel less guilty about eating meat if it comes from an animal that has had a happy life and given access to fresh air and daylight and the opportunity to exercise outdoors during the day rather than one that has been crammed into a large barn with no daylight and no room. As for organic fruit and veg i generally don't buy it, i think the organic chicken and eggs cost me enough! lol

Depends what you call expensive, if you're comparing it to buying 3 for £5 ready meals then organic food is expensive.

If you use your marginally more expensive organic veg to make meals from scratch then your money goes a long way plus you get loads more vitamins, fibre etc and it tastes amazing (like the organic leek, potato and sweet potato soup I've just made to take to work tomorrow..MMMMMmmmm!).

I've done this before, I'll do it again. I don't eat ready meals I often cook fresh, and as stated before I would love to eat organic but simply cannot afford to. I'm not comparing prices of ready meals vs. fresh, I'm comparing similar products.

So.... Organic prices first....

Carrots 91p/Kg 54p/Kg
Onions £1.04/Kg 50p/Kg
Potatoes £1.03/Kg 37p/Kg
Chicken £13.99/Kg £6.54/Kg
Eggs 24p each 8p each

At more than half the price, over a whole shopping basket organic produce would be a hell of a lot more expensive than non-organic. If it was made more affordable and accessible I think more people would eat it.

I buy organic, I never used to because I wanted to save money, but I now realise that food is such a small part of my overall weekly spending, that it doesn't make much difference if I pay 30% more for eggs and veg.

Also, the more people who eat organic the cheaper it will get.

As for the person who said there's no scientific proof organic is better for you - consider this - there would be a mountain of incontrovertable proof organic is healthier, if ICI and Allied Lyons sold it.

...Also, the more people who eat organic the cheaper it will get.
Excellent. As soon as it gets cheaper, I'll start to buy it.
As for the person who said there's no scientific proof organic is better for you - consider this - there would be a mountain of incontrovertable proof organic is healthier, if ICI and Allied Lyons sold it.
I do so love a good conspiracy theory.

Asda do a good range of organic produce and it doesn't cost much more than the regular stuff. Same with tesco.
Yes Organic meat is pricier but we just eat less of it.

I don't think it's about organic stuff tasting any better, it's about what's IN the non organic stuff that we should be trying to avoid.:)

I've done this before, I'll do it again. I don't eat ready meals I often cook fresh, and as stated before I would love to eat organic but simply cannot afford to. I'm not comparing prices of ready meals vs. fresh, I'm comparing similar products.

So.... Organic prices first....

Carrots 91p/Kg 54p/Kg
Onions £1.04/Kg 50p/Kg
Potatoes £1.03/Kg 37p/Kg
Chicken £13.99/Kg £6.54/Kg
Eggs 24p each 8p each

At more than half the price, over a whole shopping basket organic produce would be a hell of a lot more expensive than non-organic. If it was made more affordable and accessible I think more people would eat it.

Its all been said in the Aspartame thread but for what its worth... some organic items in some shops will be more expensive, others will be more like the non-organic price. You just have to use some common sense and visit more than one shop sometimes or pick an alternative type of veg.

I agree with Donkey - the more people that buy organic the cheaper it will get... its already alot cheaper than it was a couple of years ago.

There's scientific proof about the health benefits of organic produce and there's also studies that have found the opposite (look up Organic Food on Wikipedia). But to me its common sense to want to avoid pesticides and all the other crap that goes into non-organic produce and its only reasonable to expect animals reared for meat to be treated as well as possible during their lives. So I am happy to pay a bit extra.

the only organic items I buy are free-range eggs (

There appears to be a lot of confusion on this thread regarding free range eggs.

Most free range chickens are given regular injections and supplied with addional nutrients in their feed, they are therefore not organic.

I only buy free range eggs as I cannot justify the additional expense of organic, these are quite expensive and I cannot discern any real difference in quality. Although I have a preference for organic veg I will only buy if it is at a reasonable price and is local. What is the point of buying something like organic mange tout which has been transported halfway across the world from Kenya, picked before ripe and then chilled to ensure a long shelf life?.

As with veg I will buy local organic meat but tend to stick to locally sourced beef and lamb from farmers who I know and trust.

There appears to be a lot of confusion on this thread regarding free range eggs.

Most free range chickens are given regular injections and supplied with addional nutrients in their feed, they are therefore not organic.
No confusion here. The eggs I buy are free range (for reasons of animal welfare) and organic (because I believe they taste better). I don't but these frequently enough for the additional expense to be a problem. This is not the case with organic veg.
I only buy free range eggs as I cannot justify the additional expense of organic, these are quite expensive and I cannot discern any real difference in quality. Although I have a preference for organic veg I will only buy if it is at a reasonable price and is local. What is the point of buying something like organic mange tout which has been transported halfway across the world from Kenya, picked before ripe and then chilled to ensure a long shelf life?.

As with veg I will buy local organic meat but tend to stick to locally sourced beef and lamb from farmers who I know and trust.
You're lucky. It's not typical, or indeed feasible for many, to but meat from farmers they know and trust.

You're lucky. It's not typical, or indeed feasible for many, to but meat from farmers they know and trust.

Roney's (http://www.eshopone.co.uk/OnlineShopping-Roneys.html) in Hunters Bar and the Real Meat Co (http://www.realmeatco.sageweb.co.uk/default.htm) at Banner Cross both do organic meat from specific, quality farmers. There's also a very reasonable farm shop at Coppice Farm in Rivelin valley which does really good quality meat tho I'm not 100% sure if its organic as I've not been there yet myself.

Roney's (http://www.eshopone.co.uk/OnlineShopping-Roneys.html) in Hunters Bar and the Real Meat Co (http://www.realmeatco.sageweb.co.uk/default.htm) at Banner Cross both do organic meat from specific, quality farmers. There's also a very reasonable farm shop at Coppice Farm in Rivelin valley which does really good quality meat tho I'm not 100% sure if its organic as I've not been there yet myself.

If only one of those was working and the other one didn't have a minimum order value of £35 I would have considered it.

Never tried to buy online cos I live on the hippy, organic loving side of town and both of those are in walking distance of me so I can just pop in for a few things... also got In a Nutshell, Lembas, Zeds, Down to Earth and Banana Bobs within walking distance so I tend to be able to get whatever organic / wholefood products I want cheaply and convieniently.

I guess it all depends where you live in sheffield - its either too much hassle.. or no hassle at all.

Never tried to buy online cos I live on the hippy, organic loving side of town and both of those are in walking distance of me so I can just pop in for a few things... also got In a Nutshell, Lembas, Zeds, Down to Earth and Banana Bobs within walking distance so I tend to be able to get whatever organic / wholefood products I want cheaply and convieniently.

I guess it all depends where you live in sheffield - its either too much hassle.. or no hassle at all.

:D That's the problem, I don't live in Sheffield. I live in a 'city' in the armpit of Britain which is totally isolated and difficult to travel from, has no public transport even to the normal supermarkets and the city centre shopping is, at best, abysmal. We have got a farmers' market this weekend though so might try giving that a go.

Ah.. bit of a problem then!
Hopefully the farmers market will be good :) I think there should be more of them... locally grown organic produce is a million times better than stuff thats been flown half way around the world.

I've done this before, I'll do it again. I don't eat ready meals I often cook fresh, and as stated before I would love to eat organic but simply cannot afford to. I'm not comparing prices of ready meals vs. fresh, I'm comparing similar products.

So.... Organic prices first....

Carrots 91p/Kg 54p/Kg
Onions £1.04/Kg 50p/Kg
Potatoes £1.03/Kg 37p/Kg
Chicken £13.99/Kg £6.54/Kg
Eggs 24p each 8p each

At more than half the price, over a whole shopping basket organic produce would be a hell of a lot more expensive than non-organic. If it was made more affordable and accessible I think more people would eat it.


HERE, HERE! When you are trying to feed a family (or yourself) healthily, fruit , veg and fresh meat are damned expensive, and that is without the need to buy organic. There will be smug people who say I buy fresh food and its cheaper than junk food etc. But it isnt necessarily. I think these days its enough to go to the trouble to buy fresh and cook it yourself, that way is still a lot healthier than feeding the family junk food. When organic comes in the same range as ordinary fresh fruit and veg at a similar price, then I will switch.

Never tried to buy online cos I live on the hippy, organic loving side of town and both of those are in walking distance of me so I can just pop in for a few things... also got In a Nutshell, Lembas, Zeds, Down to Earth and Banana Bobs within walking distance so I tend to be able to get whatever organic / wholefood products I want cheaply and convieniently.

I guess it all depends where you live in sheffield - its either too much hassle.. or no hassle at all.

Like you say, these sorts of shops are all concentrated in one area. Obviously we cant all live there.

Like you say, these sorts of shops are all concentrated in one area. Obviously we cant all live there.
I agree with this, and the points you made in your previous post too, Yellowrose. I occasionally buy bags of dried beans, pulses, seeds etc from Tesco, as they've just started to do a rather good range of these things. I wonder how much more these products would be in specialist and independent health food shops?

I don't live in Sheffield either. I live a considerable distance away from the nearest city. Although I'm fairly well-served for my needs, the range of shops nearby don't include those of this nature. I must admit that I doubt whether I would use them anyway, for two main reasons: they may not be open at the times I need them to be, and I may be able to buy similar products elsewhere at a lower price.

I know there is a market for organic food. There are some items I would like to buy more of myself. I count myself lucky to be able to afford to buy organic free range eggs when I want to, and the occasional pack of free-range chicken breasts. The latter, though, are incredibly expensive compared to hte non-organic equivalent, as Twiglet has pointed out above.

The area where I live is not particularly affleunt. As Yellowrose has pointed out, there are people out there who wish to feed their families good healthy food on a limited budget. This budget will run to good fresh fruit and veg, but it's unlikely that they're going to be choosing extensively from the organic section. I know I can't afford to.

We started buying organic after my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer last may & she read a book called your life in your hands. We think it tastes better, but thats just an opinion. If you read the book, which was written by a scientist who had just been told she had a secondery cancer. she turned vegan, & only bought organic. The cancer reduced in size, allowing her to have a previously inoperable tumer removed. She used data from various sources from around the world. We feel a bit better knowing we're not giving the kids loads of chemicals on there foods they dont need!

I wonder how much more these products would be in specialist and independent health food shops?

I thought dried beans and pulses were always available in supermarkets... but anyway, there is a much wider choice of that kind of thing in wholefood shops.. plenty of weird and wonderful stuff to try out aswell as all the staple goods. Its also good to support our local independant retailers - if we don't use them we lose them and we're stuck with nothing but huge multinational supermarkets.

I must admit that I doubt whether I would use them anyway, for two main reasons: they may not be open at the times I need them to be, and I may be able to buy similar products elsewhere at a lower price.

What times do you work PPN?

I know at least two of the wholefood shops near me are open til 7ish and I think you can order online at Lembas (the wholefoods wholesalers near me) and get them to deliver.

I don't think the wholefood shops are much more expensive than anywhere else. Lembas especially is much cheaper than normal supermarkets as its basically a cash and carry. We buy quite large bags of rice, lentils, quinoa, various seeds and nuts etc and they last forever and save us loads of money... which leaves more money to spend on quality organic veg!

TINTSEXPERT > I know several people who have started eating organically after a cancer diagnosis. It does seem to make a very positive difference. There was an article in the Guardian or Observer recently about an extreme organic diet that is said to cure most things - I think you have to stick to it for 2 years or so and its really strict but it appears to do the job.