How long has it taken you, do you think it will take you?
How long 'on average' should it take.

Is 1st Dan the point where you can start to teach, or the point where you can start to learn?

In addition to the info above, it might help if you say how often and for how long you train.

Martial art training is for life. Whether you have achieved certain level is fully dependent how diligent and intelligent you are.

I agree, but you didn't answer the question.

Having a grading system is fine. What if your chosen M.A has no grading system. how could you ask the same question?

To me, what is it you want to teach the student. Are you confident enough to explain and show your skills. can you accept the resposibility of having students? All these and much more questions need to be answered before you are ready to teach.
As sleeping cat has said how long is a peice of rope?

To you what does first dan incorporate? Even being a teacher there are elements of being a student.

Sleeping Cat- what levels are there?

What styles in the west do not have grading systems?

I know that being a Shodan means different things in different styles, hence the question.

I'm no longer learning so out of touch... but when I started at school there was no grading (similar to the traditional Japanese idea of no grading). That system worked far, far better with students becoming more proficient. Tackling their weaknesses but not becoming complacent in their strengths.

Eventually, of course little johnny's parents complained that their son didn't have a coloured belt to hold his stomach in ;-)

Once gradings had been introduced, learning slowed dramatically. As we all got coloured belts I suppose it meant that we must have been doing better. On the other hand, one person went to a traditional school in Japan and went straight to 1st :)

In retrospect I do believe it was the best teaching. It highlighted what was important (control, philosophy). Many started and gave up because they would not learn to be Bruce Lee quickly and the lack of the grading system meant you had to enjoy it for what it was rather than a colour based score.

I gave up shortly after University (in the South) due to an accident which was due to an emphasis on coloured belts and competing with other Universities. Control was never learnt as they believe it got in the way of competing !?!

I understood that very traditional Japanese schools have 2 belts. White and Black, and you can choose for yourself which you will wear.

Westerners introduced a coloured belt system because we like to measure our progress through things. And we like to have our own perception of that progress validated by someone else.

I don't understand why having this measurement should actually reduce the rate at which you learn.

I don't think i know anyone that trains in an art and stays just for the belt, they have to enjoy it or they wouldn't bother.

Competition is a seperate issue to a grading system, and not one i can really comment on as we don't spar in a competitive way.

My understanding of the traditional Japanese is again the 2 belts... I'd concur. Still if you have a modest disposition, it tends to be others that point out that perhaps you have moved on, rather than you claiming the right :D

The points of grading reducing quality and grading keeping people staying are two sides of the same coin.

Grading shouldn't affect the way things are taught nor affect people's desire to stay. Just like SATs at school shouldn't affect pupils and how they learn, they should just be a measure.

The problem is that there then becomes a huge pressure to teach to the test and that can cause both omissions skewing. Once a test is passed there is the pressure to keep pushing for the next, rather than perfecting the simple techniques already learnt (and sometimes only learnt adequately). Often the perfecting techniques is boring for those who want to impress friends... hence how the grading can (but doesn't need to) lead to affecting who stays / leaves. Sadly I can say that I have known a number who stayed only because of a grading system / belt colours :-(

My (limited) experience has been that interest in the fight-like-Bruce-Lee & pass the colours classes tends to be greater than the whole teaching (including control, perfection, etc). At the Southern Uni I studyed in the main (competitive) class would typically get c.60 people. There was one teacher who taught the traditional approach and he typically got 6 so they closed his class down.

It is good to know that my limited experiences don't cover the whole picture. It is reassuring that there are places which teach well and don't cave into the negatives of colour pressure :D (just that there are some good schools who treat SATs as they were intended).

It is quite possible that Sheffield martial arts a like a lot of things in the North (better than in the South).

Cyclone,

I do not know what does 1st Dan represent. I would have thought it is an entry grade in all martial art systems. So someone at this level would not be qualified to train students. Disregard grading systems, I think any one who wants to train students would need the support of his/her master. It is the master's responsibility to authorise whether his/her student is qaulified to teach.

A good professional master will make a decision base on his student's level of skill, understanding of art, ability to train and deliver the skill to students. But not for money!!!

Sleepingcat

Originally posted by sleepingcat
Cyclone,

I do not know what does 1st Dan represent. I would have thought it is an entry grade in all martial art systems. So someone at this level would not be qualified to train students. Disregard grading systems, I think any one who wants to train students would need the support of his/her master. It is the master's responsibility to authorise whether his/her student is qaulified to teach.

A good professional master will make a decision base on his student's level of skill, understanding of art, ability to train and deliver the skill to students. But not for money!!!

Sleepingcat

Interesting. In my style you are not elligible to grade for your Shodan unless you have taught as a lead instructor for at least 1 academic year.
What do you mean by entry grade? Obviously not the point where the student first takes up the art as that would be white or novice.
I have not yet graded to Shodan because I can't fulfill the teaching requirement. This is because I can't make the commitment to teach due to my work which moves me around and often involves staying away from Sheffield.
But I have held my 1st kyu grade for over 3 years now and trained in this style for over 7. In other martial arts (assuming that i'm not just crap) I could have reached Shodan or probably Nidan by now (not all other MA's, just some).

Because of this lack of parity between similar grades from different styles, a Shodan (IMHO) means something different depending on the style it is from.
I don't think anyone outside of MA's though (ie new students, interested people) would recognise this distinction.

does that make sense?

Here's how things are in my style and association (Shotokan and UKASKO, resp.).

Gradings are held for students every three months from 9th - 3rd kyu, 3rd kyu to 1 dan requires six months training between grades. This is providing the student is good enough for the next grade and has been training at least twice a week.

This is independant of any teaching time, and we don't have students under 1st dan teaching (and even 1st Dans don't normally teach).

This means the minimum time to reach 1st Dan, providing you were good enough in your training and attended enough, would be 3.5 years. 2nd Dan requires 2 more years, 3rd 3 more years and so on. We don't grade above 5th Dan.

I feel sorry for you having to teach students before you can be awarded a black belt, Cyclone. Have you questioned why this is or if it is indeed fair? IMHO, martial arts training is all about individual skill, not really about your skill in teaching others. Unless, of course, you are taught how to teach in your classes and are assessed at your black belt grade?

I agree with Fairydreams' grading philosophy, but in realism I find it gives students something to aim for - targets to reach and a sence of achievement when they get their next belt.

And, as far as I know, the current 9 colour belt grading system was invented my Kano (the guy who established Judo as a modern "sport") in the early 1920s, and was adopted by the original Japanese Karate masters when they introduced their sport.

Source:
http://101.24fightingchickens.com/19_belts.html

And sorry for the long dull reply! I hope it helped.

it works differently for every system and them the people who teach the system,

in mine you are ready to teach when my sensai tells me i am, regardless of the dirty white belt.

How long has it taken you, do you think it will take you?
How long 'on average' should it take.

Is 1st Dan the point where you can start to teach, or the point where you can start to learn?

In addition to the info above, it might help if you say how often and for how long you train.

being 1st dan does not make you competant to teach ,acheving a recognised coaching award in your disipline helps ,I think 1st dan is the point where you really start to learn ,i am still learning after 20 years,

being 1st dan does not make you competant to teach ,acheving a recognised coaching award in your disipline helps ,I think 1st dan is the point where you really start to learn ,i am still learning after 20 years,

This is a very old thread, and my views have crystallised somewhat since I started it.

Being a 10th dan doesn't make you qualified to teach, dan grades (in most styles) measure you ability to do, not your ability to pass on skills. Teaching is not the same as doing.

if u wont a black belt go to the shop. Its ok havin a black belt in what ever style but do u understand every thin to do with it and do u know what each techinque is for and how to apply it. I do kung fu and i know alot of black belts some good some not some know there stuff others dont.

How long has it taken you, do you think it will take you?
How long 'on average' should it take.

Is 1st Dan the point where you can start to teach, or the point where you can start to learn?

In addition to the info above, it might help if you say how often and for how long you train.


If you train under a good instructor at least twice a week, with gradings every 3 months, you should make 1st Dan black belt within 2-3 years I reckon, but that's only a rough estimate, the actual length depends on how good you are physically and mentally at Karate or whatever.

If I'd kept up my original training since I came home from College at 19 Id've passed my black belt years ago probably but alas my circumstances didn't allow me to resume till I found the class I currently go to at Hillsborough Leisure Centre on Wednesdays and Fridays for nearly 3 years.

but its not a case of how long it takes the question to ask urself is are compitent do u know what u have learned to a high standered. Getiin the black belt should be last thing on your mind if thats all your thinking about your missin the whole point of training and doin what ever martial art your doin