Wow! I've been reading about this stuff and all the side effects that you get from Aspartame, are some of the things i'm sufferring from. Does anyone else know the dangers of this drug.

Its amazing how much stuff its in.

Here's a list of side effects:

Eye
blindness in one or both eyes
decreased vision and/or other eye problems such as: blurring, bright flashes, squiggly lines, tunnel vision, decreased night vision
pain in one or both eyes
decreased tears
trouble with contact lenses
bulging eyes

Ear
tinnitus - ringing or buzzing sound
severe intolerance of noise
marked hearing impairment

Neurologic
epileptic seizures
headaches, migraines and some severe
dizziness, unsteadiness, both
confusion, memory loss, both
severe drowsiness and sleepiness
paresthesia or numbness of the limbs
severe slurring of speech
severe hyperactivity and restless legs
atypical facial pain
severe tremors

Psychological/Psychiatric
severe depression
irritability
aggression
anxiety
personality changes
insomnia
phobias

Chest
palpitations, tachycardia
shortness of breath
recent high blood pressure

Gastrointestinal
nausea
diarrhea, sometimes with blood in stools
abdominal pain
pain when swallowing

Skin and Allergies
itching without a rash
lip and mouth reactions
hives
aggravated respiratory allergies such as asthma

Endocrine and Metabolic
loss of control of diabetes
menstrual changes
marked thinning or loss of hair
marked weight loss
gradual weight gain
aggravated low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)
severe PMS

Other
frequency of voiding and burning during urination
excessive thirst, fluid retention, leg swelling, and bloating
increased susceptibility to infection

Additional Symptoms of Aspartame Toxicity include the most critical symptoms of all
death
irreversible brain damage
birth defects, including mental retardation
peptic ulcers
aspartame addiction and increased craving for sweets
hyperactivity in children
severe depression
aggressive behavior
suicidal tendencies

Aspartame may trigger, mimic, or cause the following illnesses:
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Epstein-Barr
Post-Polio Syndrome
Lyme Disease
Grave’s Disease
Meniere’s Disease
Alzheimer’s Disease
ALS
Epilepsy
Multiple Sclerosis (MS)
EMS
Hypothyroidism
Mercury sensitivity from Amalgam fillings
Fibromyalgia
Lupus
non-Hodgkins
Lymphoma
Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)

Aspartame has been deemed safe by the FDA and is not banned either in the US or Europe (although in Europe it is banned from certain products such as children's food).

All these effects can be caused by any drug we ingest and are things that will only ever affect a minority of people. Studies have shown that there is no positive link between aspartame and these symptoms/conditions.

To suffer with Aspartame toxicity, you would have to consume vast amounts.

Unless you drink gallons of diet coke or other diet drinks per day, it is unlikely that you would suffer from Aspartame toxicity, unless of course you have some sort of allergy.

If it was that dangerous, it wouldn't be recommended, as an alternative sweetener to sugar, to diabetics, like me!

yeah, artificial sweeteners are terrible, one of the reasons i dont use them or drink diet drinks.

the trouble is, they also use this in alot of other products too now.

its scandalous that its still being used to be honest:loopy:

I had heard of the effect on memory before.

Some artificial sweetners give me diarrhoea too!

Aspartame is vile stuff - horrible :gag:

I won't touch anything that contains it. I've known about some of its effects (such as hyperactivity in children and depression/anxiety/jitteriness in adults) for years now, but you don't see such effects talked about that often.

StarSparkle

Thats a very long list of very potential side-effects (where from BTW?). This (http://www.food.gov.uk/safereating/additivesbranch/sweeteners/55174) has a pretty good overview of aspartame.Of course the important thing to remember is that diferent people have different reaction to different chemicals at different levels - medicine and toxicology are not exact sciences - so RDAs are set at VERY paranoid levels!

Originally posted by evildrneil
Thats a very long list of very potential side-effects (where from BTW?). This (http://www.food.gov.uk/safereating/additivesbranch/sweeteners/55174) has a pretty good overview of aspartame.Of course the important thing to remember is that diferent people have different reaction to different chemicals at different levels - medicine and toxicology are not exact sciences - so RDAs are set at VERY paranoid levels!

Here's were I got the list from:

http://www.sweetpoison.com/aspartame-side-effects.html

Originally posted by wayne72
Here's were I got the list from:

http://www.sweetpoison.com/aspartame-side-effects.html

Not exactly what anyone would call unbiased evidence then! Try taking a look on entrez (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed) for some less biased stuff :)

I love how the Internet has created a vast swathe of 'Computer Chair...[insert degree speciality subject here]'

Don't forget, The moon landings are fake & you have every exotic illness there is etc. etc.

Ann, I believe that a study by the Food Standards Authority here in the UK indicated that someone would need to drink the equivalent of 14 cans of diet soft drink - or ingest that amount of Aspartame based sweetener - before the acceptable daily intake for Aspartame were to be met.

Not a small amount, but not gallons. As Neil says, toxicity is not an exact science.

The US FDA threw out a couple of studies that indicated Aspartame was toxic, and a study initially funded by Monsanto (who manufacture Nutrasweet) to look at birth dfects had it's funding cut off after initial studies showed there might be something for them to be concerned about.

There have also been concerns about Aspartame being implicated in epilectic seizures, brain tumours and emotional upsets.

Although anecdotal, I stopped taking nutrasweet in drinks in the early 1980s, not because of my scientific knowledge (my first degree is Biochemistry) but because I suffered from headaches and mood swings whilst taking it.

Aspartame breaks down in the body to Phenylalanine, Aspartic Acid and Methanol. The latter breaks down to Formic Acid and Formaldehyde. Apart frem people who suffer from Phenylketonuria, who shouldn't eat anything that gives rise to Phenylalanine, Formaldehyde is quite toxic and some of the symptoms associated with a reaction to Aspartame are similar to the symptoms of Formaldehyde poisoning. A further breakdown product of Aspartame in storage is called DKP and this can give rise in teh gut to a chemical that is similar in structure to a chemical known to cause brain tumours.

Some people have suggested that some of the symptoms of 'Gulf War Syndrome' might have been caused by the large amounts of diet drinks drunk in the Gulf. The drinks would have been stored in temperatures that would have encouraged breakdown before they were chilled, and the increased temperature increases the absorption of the Aspartame by the gut.

Jury is out on Aspartame - though as I'm concerned about Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma and my emotional wellbeing I won't touch the stuff.

Joe

Originally posted by RPG
I love how the Internet has created a vast swathe of 'Computer Chair...[insert degree speciality subject here]'

Don't forget, The moon landings are fake & you have every exotic illness there is etc. etc.

And this post is contributing to the discussion exactly how? :suspect:

StarSparkle

Originally posted by StarSparkle
And this post is contributing to the discussion exactly how? :suspect:

StarSparkle

Roughly the same as yours sly dig at my post. I thought it was a valid post, or I'd never have posted it.

My point is, I personally am fed up of seeing people doing minimal research into something then posting it up on the internet as fact usually in the form of a 'FWD' email or somesuch nonsencical rubbish.

See www.snopes.com for further details on the latter.

Leave it to the independant experts, read those reports, *then* form an opinion.

Originally posted by RPG
Roughly the same as yours sly dig at my post. I thought it was a valid post, or I'd never have posted it.

My point is, I personally am fed up of seeing people doing minimal research into something then posting it up on the internet as fact.

Leave it to the independant experts, read those reports, *then* form an opinion.

That's what I have done. I read up on Aspartame in a number of places, and once you know the chemistry involved it's easy to see that some of the chemicals involved do have a detrimental effect on living systems.

I've suffered form depression and Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma is something else I'm concerned about - if Aspartame is implicated in these conditions then I'd be a horse's arse to ignore the risk.

It's very difficult to get objective research done in this field - it costs money to do the long term studies required. Typically the people that have this sort of money are the chemical companies, and let's face it, they're not pubic spirited enough to fund research that might wipe out major product lines.

Joe

Thats fair enough Joe, but 'most people' will do a quick google search and find places like sweetpoison.com who are extremely biased as EvilDrNeil quite rightly pointed out.

RE: the list of 'symptoms' the OP posted. I too have suffered a good majority of them at some point (and even now, do) but i'd never really put it to being anything like this.

The main problem (to my mind at least) of sites like sweetpoison.com is that they are so blatently biased that they actually cover up the problem they are trying to highlight (assumuing one exists). The majority of people will look at sweetpoison and laugh it off as a crank site (with good reason!) and then fail to investigate the rational and unbiased evidence.

Originally posted by RPG
Roughly the same as yours sly dig at my post. I thought it was a valid post, or I'd never have posted it.

My point is, I personally am fed up of seeing people doing minimal research into something then posting it up on the internet as fact usually in the form of a 'FWD' email or somesuch nonsencical rubbish.

See www.snopes.com for further details on the latter.

Leave it to the independant experts, read those reports, *then* form an opinion.

There was nothing 'sly' about my post, thank you - I thought your post was snide and unhelpful, and believe I effectively said so.

I stand by what I said in my post - it's been proved to me to my own satisfaction through my own experience, and through reading a number of articles I've come across over the years. And I mean YEARS. There have been concerns about the effects of aspartame for quite some time - it's no 'flash in the pan', knee-jerk response to one piece of research or whatever.

I can make no comment on what Wayne 72 has specifically said - all I am commenting on what I believe to be the situation. And that is scary enough to make me never knowingly touch the stuff.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by evildrneil
The main problem (to my mind at least) of sites like sweetpoison.com is that they are so blatently biased that they actually cover up the problem they are trying to highlight (assumuing one exists). The majority of people will look at sweetpoison and laugh it off as a crank site (with good reason!) and then fail to investigate the rational and unbiased evidence.

Exactly. What he said ;) (but in more eloquent wording)

Originally posted by StarSparkle
There was nothing 'sly' about my post, thank you - I thought your post was snide and unhelpful, and believe I effectively said so.

The irony is, your response was just as snide and unhelpful as mine apparently was, so... Given I wasnt even addressing you personally in the first place, I do think you've taken my post rather to heart.

For the record, I dont drink things with sweetner in, not because of any chemical in it, more because they taste crap.

If people do choose to live in bubbles, do expect someone to come along one day (not specifically myself) and pop it.

Originally posted by RPG
Thats fair enough Joe, but 'most people' will do a quick google search and find places like sweetpoison.com who are extremely biased as EvilDrNeil quite rightly pointed out.

RE: the list of 'symptoms' the OP posted. I too have suffered a good majority of them at some point (and even now, do) but i'd never really put it to being anything like this.

But at the same time, there are sites run by the industry that actually post untruths. Like saying that Aspartame only breaks down to Phenylanaline and Aspartic Acid so they can say that it's made of the same components as normal protens. The third breakdown product - Methanol - gets little mention on the 'official' sites because it's not exactly got the wholesome feel of those amino acids.

Sometimes reading sites like www.aspartame.info (I think that's the URL for the 'official' information site) I feel like I'm in an episode of The Simpsons where Troy Mclure is introducing another of his information films, this one entitled 'Aspartame - misunderstood toxin or sweet, sweet low calorie heaven'. :)

Joe

Originally posted by RPG

This was supposed to be a discussion about Aspartame - then you suddenly make a post referring to some people believing the moon landings to have been faked. I fail to see any correlation - unless you are trying to say that those people who have legitimate concerns about the effects on health of aspartame are as deluded as those who refuse to believe man has landed on the moon.

I find your attitude patronising and offensive, and you have no reason whatsoever to take that attitude. There are legitimate concerns here.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by RPG
Roughly the same as yours sly dig at my post. I thought it was a valid post, or I'd never have posted it.

My point is, I personally am fed up of seeing people doing minimal research into something then posting it up on the internet as fact usually in the form of a 'FWD' email or somesuch nonsencical rubbish.

See www.snopes.com for further details on the latter.

Leave it to the independant experts, read those reports, *then* form an opinion.

I never claimed i'd done extensive research. I have just touched on the topic and thus thought i'd put it up for discussion on this hallowed message board. This way I hope to gather both sides of the story, from normal people like you and me, in a interactve way.

As a Mod, i'd have thought you would encourage topics. Maybe we should all stop posting, until we have fully researched in all detail of the topic we wish to discuss?

Incidently I think JoeP's post is of great interest.

Cheers Wayne.

The other issue with Aspartame is that it's not actually needed. Admittedly it can make foods more pleasant for diabetics who can't eat sugar, but there are other, older sweeteners like Saccharine. (Yes, I know that that has abit of an after taste and has had it's own minor health concerns)

I believe Aspartame is very much a product that is a 'lifestyle enhancer' rather than anything else. The number of calories in a sugar drink is minimal, anyway - for most people without a sugar related health issue it's more sensible to just reduce the amount of sugar water you drink rather than remove the sugar and replace it with something of unknown characteristics.

I recently had the interesting experience of trying to find a probiotic drink that DIDN'T contain Aspartame. You'd think that a supposed health product wouldn't contain a chemical that has such a question mark against it. There have also been a number of mis-labelling complaints raised by the UK Food Standards Agency about Aspartame in drinks and food.

This is more of a major concern for me than Diet Coke or other drinks that I know contain Aspartame. If foods are adulterated with Aspartame and the manufacturers don't even deign to tell us, where is freedom of choice? And if it's such wonderful, harmless stuff why don't they label honestly?

Joe

Originally posted by RPG
Thats fair enough Joe, but 'most people' will do a quick google search and find places like sweetpoison.com who are extremely biased as EvilDrNeil quite rightly pointed out.

RE: the list of 'symptoms' the OP posted. I too have suffered a good majority of them at some point (and even now, do) but i'd never really put it to being anything like this.


LOL sorry to p**s on your fire, but it was a askjeeves search :thumbsup:

Incidently it was at the top of the list, so why not look at it. SweetPoison incidently could be an appropriate name.

I like the dig "most people", this is obviously somthing you don't do then?:help:

Originally posted by JoeP
The third breakdown product - Methanol - gets little mention on the 'official' sites because it's not exactly got the wholesome feel of those amino acids.

Just a quick point about methanol. Apparently you ingest more methanol from a glass of tomato juice than an equivalent volume of diet coke.

Here's a link to an article from Bristol University's Department of Chemistry. The info about methanol is towards the bottom of the page:

Aspartame (http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/aspartame/aspartameh.html)

I went through a phase of excluding aspartame and when I wanted a cold drink, rather than have something sugar laden I used to buy a fruit cordial from Holland and Barrett which they did in various flavours, and it was just concentrated fruit rather than fruit and sugar or fruit and artificial stuff.

Youve started me off again. I think I will look for it again as my tummy is dodgy.

The FDA;

1) Allowed Merk to clear a drug called Vioxx. Currently they have lost a number of legal cases, because it causes heart attacks. Only an estimated 50,000 died as a result of this drug. 10 members of the panel that passed Vioxx had ties to the drug company. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7031927/)
2) They passed thalidomide.
3) Currently they are holding up the morning after pill because they received a few thousand letters from the Religious right. They are currently listening to the Religious right, on another drug.. and vaccine for cirvical cancer, that works 100%. (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/15/health/main623159.shtml)
4) While i do not beleive it causes Autism, the FDA agreed to allowed Mercury in vaccines.
5) The FDA decided levels of Mercury infish were ok, by testing a few dozen fish over decades. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0512120167dec12,1,5595779.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true)

The FDA are a political organization. They have overlooked science so many times, they are certainly not somebody you want to quote as an organisation who does not get things wrong.

Just thought i'd give my reasons now for making a search in to "Aspartame", now i've nearly allowed myself to flame!!! don't worry I will release the bait, set by a "Moderator":help: help us please!!!!

I've been suffering from bad Ectopic Heartbeats for quite a while. My doctor as advised me to go on the sick for a while. He even stopped me going on my Holiday to Las Vegas in November, because he said, I shouldn't risk going on a aeoplane until I am sorted out.

After various tests, the Doc's can't find out whats causing my "Ectopic Heartbeats". They do say they could be dangerous, but they are stumpped at what the cause is. They also say because my Heartbeat Electro (whatever can't remember the techno term) appears to be fine, they could be just benign caused by an allergy.

Well I was talking to somone who told me to have a look into "Aspartame" and its effects. I was amazed to see quite a few of the other symptons there I suffer from. These other symptons I thought were brought on because of my "Ectopic Heartbeats". Panic Attacks, Nausea, Bloating Stomache, Fatigue, Depression, Burning Urine, Dizziness, Palpitations, Breathlessness amongst many. I was shocked!!! to say the least.

I have been drinking "Diet Coke" and looking back, I find whenever I drink lots of "Diet Coke" the worse these symptons get. Is there a connection? Or am I just looking for one?

Incidently I began to look at everything I was to buy in the supermarket today and was amazed at how many products contained either Aspartame or other artificial sweetners.

Originally posted by wayne72
LOL sorry to p**s on your fire, but it was a askjeeves search :thumbsup:

Incidently it was at the top of the list, so why not look at it. SweetPoison incidently could be an appropriate name.

Top of the list doesn't neccesarily mean it's a good or valid link - depending on the way the databases the search engine are indexed it more likely mean most references or most mentions of the search term. The fact that the it's set up by someone selling a book should start alarm bells ringing straight away and flicking through it the phrase reasoned argument doesn't spring to mind so much as obsessive, moneygrabbing, frothing hyperbole! This of course doesn't mean that aspertame DOESN'T have it's problems but I really don't think this sort of site remotely helps!

Originally posted by StarSparkle
This was supposed to be a discussion about Aspartame - then you suddenly make a post referring to some people believing the moon landings to have been faked. I fail to see any correlation - unless you are trying to say that those people who have legitimate concerns about the effects on health of aspartame are as deluded as those who refuse to believe man has landed on the moon.

I find your attitude patronising and offensive, and you have no reason whatsoever to take that attitude. There are legitimate concerns here.

StarSparkle

The moon landings part was to put it further into context by what I mean regarding FWD'd emails and what not. Something I'm sure you'll have recieved at some point or another.

To be honest, I find your attitude of the matter rather condescending and arrogant. I do wonder if the tables were turned and I backed your side of the argument you would have also posted said rant?

Originally posted by wayne72
LOL sorry to p**s on your fire, but it was a askjeeves search :thumbsup:

Incidently it was at the top of the list, so why not look at it. SweetPoison incidently could be an appropriate name.

I like the dig "most people", this is obviously somthing you don't do then?:help:

I used google as a generic search engine, as for the 'some people' reference it was more in reference to Joe who has actually bothered to go out and form his opinion on carefully looking at both sides of the argument.

Originally posted by wayne72

As a Mod, i'd have thought you would encourage topics.


Just because I am a moderator doesn't mean I cannot hold opinions like the rest of you. Yes I should think carefully before I post but that doesn't apply to just the mods!

Sorry if I have offended people here, but you cannot have debate without another side to the argument.

My dissertation supervisor told my about some research he got involved in whilst in the U.S. Apparently it centered around aspartame and he told me about a child who had consumed a lot of diet coke and had her memory disrupted, temporarily I think. He said he and his colleagues where stopped from publishing by the legal people from Coca Cola company who would apparently have sued. I am not sure of the authenticity of this story, but this guy who worked on the neuro side never touched diet drinks. He put me and my mates off for a while too.

Originally posted by Ramen
4) While i do not beleive it causes Autism, the FDA agreed to allowed Mercury in vaccines.
5) The FDA decided levels of Mercury infish were ok, by testing a few dozen fish over decades.
The form of mercury in vaccines is not the toxic form. It is not the same as the mercury which contaminates fish and the environment (ethylmercury vs methylmercury).

See the thread about TB for references.

Originally posted by RPG




Just because I am a moderator doesn't mean I cannot hold opinions like the rest of you. Yes I should think carefully before I post but that doesn't apply to just the mods!

Sorry if I have offended people here, but you cannot have debate without another side to the argument.

No RPG its me who should be appologising m8. I tend to forget Mods are posters too. I think i'm just in a bit of a bad mood. Your right I should check both sides of the story first. Sites advertising books may not be the best source of unbiased info, but it doesn't mean they are wrong.

I hope you accept my appologas if not it makes a mockery of my Signature.

Originally posted by alysonpeach
My dissertation supervisor told my about some research he got involved in whilst in the U.S. Apparently it centered around aspartame and he told me about a child who had consumed a lot of diet coke and had her memory disrupted, temporarily I think. He said he and his colleagues where stopped from publishing by the legal people from Coca Cola company who would apparently have sued. I am not sure of the authenticity of this story, but this guy who worked on the neuro side never touched diet drinks. He put me and my mates off for a while too.

Here are some stories I am reading at the moment, which makes your story look truthfull.

http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/adverse.txt

this site was taken from:

http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/

there are loads of links on there.

Originally posted by RPG
The moon landings part was to put it further into context by what I mean regarding FWD'd emails and what not. Something I'm sure you'll have recieved at some point or another.

To be honest, I find your attitude of the matter rather condescending and arrogant. I do wonder if the tables were turned and I backed your side of the argument you would have also posted said rant?

Sorry if I have offended people here, but you cannot have debate without another side to the argument.

If you thought that post of mine was ranting, my dear RPG, you've led a very sheltered life! I was merely stating the facts. I don't know WHAT you'd make of some of the political debates I've seen on other parts of the forum!

Just so you know for another time, it's perfectly possible to have a civilised debate without gratuitously offending other Forummers. Our opinions all count, you know, whether or not we happen to be Mods..... ;)

StarSparkle

Originally posted by ppn_2204
Just a quick point about methanol. Apparently you ingest more methanol from a glass of tomato juice than an equivalent volume of diet coke.

Here's a link to an article from Bristol University's Department of Chemistry. The info about methanol is towards the bottom of the page:

Aspartame (http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/aspartame/aspartameh.html)

I guess the point is that whereas it's unlikely I'll drink a couple of tins of tomato juice day in, day out for months at a time, that's not the case with Diet drinks or sweeteners in tea / coffee. I've seen people in offices I've worked in get through half a dozen cans of Diet Coke a day, day in, day out.

Also, once you get in to sweeteners in tea and coffee I'd be interested to see whether studies of the amount of methanol caused by breakdown of the Aspartame in a drink changes with temperature?

I'm not sure whether it's methanol itself that causes the problem - there are other storage and breakdown by products that might have biological effects.

The quoted paper there is written by someone who's other published work includes a paper co-authored with a scientist from Monsanto (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/10004857/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0) Also, to quote from his biography :

"Dr. Walters began work at the pharmaceutical company, G.D. Searle in their computer-modeling group to assess the conformation of drug molecules using his spectroscopy experience. His hiring was shortly after the Federal Drug Administration’s approval of aspartame. Aspartame was serendipitously discovered by one of the company’s chemists, James M. Schlatter, as he was working on developing an anti-ulcer drug. Given its promise as a sugar substitute, Searle, later bought by Monsanto, asked Dr. Walters' computer-modeling group to focus exclusively on doing sweetener research."

In other words, the author's career started at Searle, inventors of Aspartame, later bought by Monsanto.

I guess this goes to show that every piece of scientific evidence put forward needs to be examined in terms of where it comes from.

Joe

A couple more articles

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/109/109244.htm
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/29/1728_63559.htm

Aspartame is also claimed to reduce Seretonin levels, which leads to violence. Incidently people do seem to be getting more violent, or am I imagining that.

Here's a post somone made on anothersit:

"You know that stuff in sugar free stuff usually called nutrisweet? This **** is a poison. Aspertame (phenylalanine) at 86 degrees farenhight turns into METHANOL which gets broken into FORMALDAHYDE and FORMIC ACID both of which are deadly toxins. Aspertame cause decreased seretonin levels causing manic depression, violence, and memory loss. Phenylalanine when without certain animo acids crossess the blood-brain barrier and kills neurons. Formaldahyde is embalming fluid, it is a known poison and very carcinogenic. In a pregnent woman when the phenylalanine conentrates in the placents it causes birth defects and MENTAL RETARDATION in the baby. Do not use aspartame, use splenda or sweetenlow instead."

"Holidays are coming, Holidays are coming...." :thumbsup:
Enjoy

Originally posted by JoeP
I'm not sure whether it's methanol itself that causes the problem - there are other storage and breakdown by products that might have biological effects.

Damn that Bristol University Chemisty Department and their sly inclusion of a pro-aspartame academic as an author for their 'Molecule of the Month' articles.

Still, I think the Bristol article is a fairly innocuous summary of the biochemical properties of aspartame. It isn't a research article. I quoted it for its reference to methanol, as you mentioned it specifically as the third breakdown product of aspartame.

[Edited to make my comments more relevent to JoeP's post.]

Originally posted by ppn_2204
The form of mercury in vaccines is not the toxic form. It is not the same as the mercury which contaminates fish and the environment (ethylmercury vs methylmercury).

See the thread about TB for references.

All types of Mercury are toxic. But yes you are correct Methy is more toxic than Ethyl. I know it is not the same, it is still neuro-toxic and very, very dangerous in large doses.

Mercury from the enviroment and from other sources build up in the body, it takes time for them to be excreated. In Autistic Children it takes even longer for them to be purged from the body.

Originally posted by wayne72

I have been drinking "Diet Coke" and looking back, I find whenever I drink lots of "Diet Coke" the worse these symptons get. Is there a connection? Or am I just looking for one?


Caffeine is far more likely to be causing the ectopic heartbeats if you're drinking Diet Coke.

Originally posted by Twiglet
Caffeine is far more likely to be causing the ectopic heartbeats if you're drinking Diet Coke. It

I was going to say, sounds like classic caffeine poisoning.
"Ectopic Heartbeats". Panic Attacks, Nausea, Bloating Stomache, Fatigue, Depression, Burning Urine, Dizziness, Palpitations, Breathlessness amongst many. I was shocked!!! to say the least.

I have been drinking "Diet Coke" and looking back, I find whenever I drink lots of "Diet Coke" the worse these symptons get. Is there a connection?

Caffeine Poisoning and “Caffeinism”

Caffeine poisoning, also called caffeinism, is a condition caused by the continuous ingestion of excessive amounts of caffeine. Symptoms include restlessness, anxiety, increased urination, and the inability to sleep. General depression, rapid heartbeat, tremors, and nausea are also symptoms. Death may occur from heart and lung collapse. But don't panic just yet. The fatal dose is estimated to be 10 grams, the equivalent of 100 cups of coffee! The recommended limit of caffeine for healthy adults is <300 mg/day.

With reference to the initial list of potential side effects from aspartame, I used to promote one of the market placebo formulations for use in clinical trials (you need a placebo so that trial subjects don't know whether they're taking the active drug or not).

On the data sheet of this placebo, all side effects reported during initial testing of the formaulation have to be reported. There were over 50 of them, up to and including death, which was pretty impressive for an inert pill. The death was listed by law, even though it occurred incidentally and not as a result of taking the pill. The rest of the self reported side effects show the power of the placebo effect on the human brain.

I'm not trying to suggest that any side effect list is dubious, but that it needs to be seen in context of the power of human suggestion, and also needs to be cross analysed with the possibility that other dietary or medical products that are being taken concomitantly could be partially or wholly the cause of these symptoms.

Wayne72, I would suggest getting some caffeine free coke and seeing if the frequency of ectopics decreases. It certainly sounds like caffeine could be playing a part of your symptoms.

Diet Coke contains 45.6 mg/350ml or 130mg/l

so two litres would take you to you RDA if you didn't have anything else with caffeine in.

I am diabetic, so, unless I was going into a hypo, the full-sugared pop is no good for me.

I detest the taste of Saccharine, i think it's vile.

I don't usually drink a lot of alcohol, but i tend to go for gin and slimline tonic, if i do have an alcohol-based drink.

I don't like to booze a lot, because I need to be careful about my blood-sugar levels. I stick to soft drinks, like diet coke, or equivalent, if i'm out,

The aspartame-"sweetened" drinks such as diet coke etc, taste much more pleasant than the ones with saccharine based sweeteners.

PT

I just avoid anything with additives in it if possible just to be on the safe side.

Its quite easy to buy products that are based on "normal" ingredients these days especially if you cook most things from scratch and avoid processed foods.

To me its just common sense. I want to eat fresher healthier foods and theres no need to eat things that are rammed full of E numbers, artifical sweeteners, hydrogenised fats and other such crap... all of which have dubious effects on our bodies and are generally there to cut manufacture costs or make the product lo-cal or lo-fat.

I buy organic as much as possible and these products tend to be as additive free as they can be.

Besides I hate the taste of artifical sweeteners... give me the full fat, full sugar version anyday! :thumbsup:

I agree with your sentiments, Anne23. I too would rather have fresh foods, full fat, full sugar versions and organic if possible. Our ancestors thousands of years ago didn't have the additives often in modern food and it seems to me likely that our bodies evolved suited to un-additived food...(o:

Vile stuff, just like all artificial sweeteners. They all taste yukky. Stick to the natural stuff ie sugar.

I don't buy any drinks or food containing any artificial sweeteners at all.

Originally posted by Anne23
I just avoid anything with additives in it if possible just to be on the safe side.

Its quite easy to buy products that are based on "normal" ingredients these days especially if you cook most things from scratch and avoid processed foods.

To me its just common sense. I want to eat fresher healthier foods and theres no need to eat things that are rammed full of E numbers, artifical sweeteners, hydrogenised fats and other such crap... all of which have dubious effects on our bodies and are generally there to cut manufacture costs or make the product lo-cal or lo-fat.

I buy organic as much as possible and these products tend to be as additive free as they can be.

Besides I hate the taste of artifical sweeteners... give me the full fat, full sugar version anyday! :thumbsup:

Unfortunately organic food tends to be more expensive. Fresh ingredients are also more expensive than buying prepared meals when you live alone and have no freezer. They also require shopping every couple of days and preparation time which is often unrealistic for those of us who work long hours.

Originally posted by Twiglet
Unfortunately organic food tends to be more expensive. Fresh ingredients are also more expensive than buying prepared meals when you live alone and have no freezer. They also require shopping every couple of days and preparation time which is often unrealistic for those of us who work long hours.


Makes you wonder how we lived before the Oil age!

We never have anything with artifical sweeteners, as my husband found out it was that that was giving him migrain, after a lot of trial and error, so it is now banned in our house.

I find it amazing how many people have had such adverse reactions to "Artificial Sweetners" on this Forum alone!!! Yet it never makes big press coverage. I only came across it by accident, whilst searching about somthing completely different.

This - http://www.dorway.com/ - is a very personal website about being harmed by aspartame.

Originally posted by wayne72
I find it amazing how many people have had such adverse reactions to "Artificial Sweetners" on this Forum alone!!! Yet it never makes big press coverage. I only came across it by accident, whilst searching about somthing completely different.

I can only see one person whose husband's migraines are triggered by aspartame - which are also commonly triggered by foods like chocolate and cheese as well. Hardly provides a burden of proof for aspartame being dangerous does it?

Originally posted by Twiglet
I can only see one person whose husband's migraines are triggered by aspartame - which are also commonly triggered by foods like chocolate and cheese as well. Hardly provides a burden of proof for aspartame being dangerous does it?

You have obviously never suffered from migraine, or you wouldn't be so flippant, no one said aspartame was dangerouse, I was merely trying to be helpful, in case it could solve any one elses problems, who may suffer from migraine, fair enough cheese and chocolate are the ones touted round, but not in this case!!!

Originally posted by Twiglet
I can only see one person whose husband's migraines are triggered by aspartame - which are also commonly triggered by foods like chocolate and cheese as well. Hardly provides a burden of proof for aspartame being dangerous does it?

You haven't recieved the PM's which I have recieved.

Originally posted by Twiglet
I can only see one person whose husband's migraines are triggered by aspartame - which are also commonly triggered by foods like chocolate and cheese as well. Hardly provides a burden of proof for aspartame being dangerous does it?

No, Twiglet, you're wrong - there's at least three people on this thread who appear to have been adversely affected by aspartame.

I reacted very badly to sweeteners containing aspartame when I took them in my tea for a few weeks some years ago. It's the only time in my life I've ever taken sweeteners, and I certainly won't be taking them again. During that time I developed serious depression, had anxiety/panic attacks, and felt constantly jittery.

ok, not everyone seems to react badly to aspartame, but for those who are susceptible to it, the horrible effects are very real.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by Twiglet
I can only see one person whose husband's migraines are triggered by aspartame - which are also commonly triggered by foods like chocolate and cheese as well. Hardly provides a burden of proof for aspartame being dangerous does it?

Well, here's a second man who gets headaches when he takes Aspartame - Me.

I had headaches that coincided with the days when one of the office juniors made me tea or coffee. It took me ages to work out that the only difference between the way she made the drinks and the way everyone else made my hot drinks was that she used Nutrasweet rather than sugar.

I know all about migraines - I've suffered them for 30 years. I didn't have a migraine, just an intense, blinding headache that lasted about an hour then went away.

There are a couple of people on this thread alone who've had bad effects that they associate with Aspartame; there are thousands if not millions in the world who've also apparently had bad reactions.

As an 'ex-scientist' I know that anecodtal evidence cannot be regarded as statistically valid in clinical trials, but there is, to me, enough evidence kicking about to indicate that whilst not dangerous in terms of acute risk of harm, there is enough evidence to suggest that some serious studies be made of Aspartame, looking at it's effects as a long term, low dosage, food additive - which is what it is.

Joe

Originally posted by Twiglet
Unfortunately organic food tends to be more expensive. Fresh ingredients are also more expensive than buying prepared meals when you live alone and have no freezer. They also require shopping every couple of days and preparation time which is often unrealistic for those of us who work long hours.

I have no freezer.

I also don't currently drive. I work as an IT contractor in town and can manage to find time to shop for fresh fruit and veg (OK, not organic) every day or so if I want it.

Properly stored fresh fruit and veg. will easily last a few days to a week. Meat and fish are a different matter, though. And as for preparing fresh food - good Lord, how many hours a day DO you work? Even when I was out 12 hours a day I could still cook when I got home at night.

I feel happier avoiding pre-prepared meals because at least I can reduce exposure to food additives in general. I've been surprised how quick most vegetarian cookery is, for example, and reducing my meat and fish intake isn't necessarily a bad thing! :)

Joe

Originally posted by Mandem
You have obviously never suffered from migraine, or you wouldn't be so flippant, no one said aspartame was dangerouse, I was merely trying to be helpful, in case it could solve any one elses problems, who may suffer from migraine, fair enough cheese and chocolate are the ones touted round, but not in this case!!!

Sorry Mandem this wasn't aimed at you at all. I have suffered from Migraines and am certainly not flippant about them, they are very debilitating. I was just trying to point out to Wayne72 that based on this thread there isn't enough evidence to suggest that aspartame is dangerous and there is some kind of press 'cover up'.

Yes aspartame produces unwanted symptoms in some people but so do many other things we eat, of which some are natural and not even chemical additives.

Hi Joe, I tend to work from 8.30 to around 7 in the evenings. I don't drive and don't work in a town centre (I no longer live in Sheffield), there are no supermarkets within walking distance and no bus service. I often divert through the town centre to M&S but as anyone who shops there should know you're lucky if their fruit and veg lasts two days, it's usually already been on the shelves two weeks. I don't mind cooking when I get in if I do have raw ingredients, but as I only manage to do a 'proper' shop every two or three weeks this doesn't happen very often.

Twiglet - that's a heck of a working day! :)

I recently started using markets and small greengrocers / butchers / etc. rather than supermarkets for my fresh food, and it's interesting that supermarket carrots, for example, seem to wither much more quickly than the market equivalents. The market ones also come in more interesting shapes... :)

I think the reason why people are 'up' about Aspartame is that whilst there appears to be problems for many people, there is a perception that the scientific establishment IS playing down the problem.

This is something that I feel the scientific establishment in general needs to get to grips with - if people PERCEIVE there to be a problem then you can produce all the evidence in the world and people may still not believe you if they feel they've had experiences that have had a causal relationship to, for example, Aspartame or E numbers or hydrogenated fats or whatever.

There's also the 'expert' syndrome - people are less trusting of 'experts' nowadays because of the number of times the experts have categorically said something's safe....only to be shown to be wrong.

Aspartame is also showing up in so many foods, and in some cases it hides behind bad or incomplete labelling, that it becomes harder for people to avoid it. I have a bad reaction to certain nuts, for example. They're labelled well on foodstuffs - even bread gets a label if it's made in a production line that is processing nuts. But Aspartame's effects are apparently subtle, and labelling so poor, that people probably have a right to be concerned / annoyed.

Joe

Originally posted by Twiglet
Sorry Mandem this wasn't aimed at you at all. I have suffered from Migraines and am certainly not flippant about them, they are very debilitating. I was just trying to point out to Wayne72 that based on this thread there isn't enough evidence to suggest that aspartame is dangerous and there is some kind of press 'cover up'.

Yes aspartame produces unwanted symptoms in some people but so do many other things we eat, of which some are natural and not even chemical additives.

Hi Joe, I tend to work from 8.30 to around 7 in the evenings. I don't drive and don't work in a town centre (I no longer live in Sheffield), there are no supermarkets within walking distance and no bus service. I often divert through the town centre to M&S but as anyone who shops there should know you're lucky if their fruit and veg lasts two days, it's usually already been on the shelves two weeks. I don't mind cooking when I get in if I do have raw ingredients, but as I only manage to do a 'proper' shop every two or three weeks this doesn't happen very often.


Well to me the symptoms i've been suffering and from the posts on this thread and the PM's i've recieved, give me good reason to believe "Aspartame" is dangerous. As for a press cover up, I am suprised I have never read of the dangers. Instead I stumble across evidence, whilist searching for somthing else.

Originally posted by wayne72
Well to me the symptoms i've been suffering and from the posts on this thread and the PM's i've recieved, give me good reason to believe "Aspartame" is dangerous. As for a press cover up, I am suprised I have never read of the dangers. Instead I stumble across evidence, whilist searching for somthing else.

Now that you've quit diet coke, and if you experience relief, then you won't know whether it was caffeine or aspartame.

My belief is that we all have different sensitivities - and the future belongs to those who are fortunate enough not to experience disease symptoms from additives, pollution, animal dander, peanuts, gluten, lactose, industrialised world effluent etc.

If you don't have the time to shop for fresh veg either get an organic veg box delivery or just stock up on decent veg on your fortnightly shop... there are plenty of veg that will last ages if stored corrently..

I get plenty of veg from M&S and its fine, lasts as well as any other veg.

Alot of organic produce is now similarly priced to non-organics.. especially if you stick to seasonal veg which makes sense anyway.

Originally posted by Anne23
If you don't have the time to shop for fresh veg either get an organic veg box delivery or just stock up on decent veg on your fortnightly shop... there are plenty of veg that will last ages if stored corrently..

I get plenty of veg from M&S and its fine, lasts as well as any other veg.

Alot of organic produce is now similarly priced to non-organics.. especially if you stick to seasonal veg which makes sense anyway.

I do stock up on what veg I can when I shop and it does last up to a week but not much more than that, which is a pain if I have to wait three weeks between shops. As for organic veg box deliveries, there is one around where I live and it does only does a 'seasonal box' which is £23 :wow: Perhaps justifiable for a family of four but certainly not just for me! I do have to refute the M&S thing though. I do remember the one on Fargate being pretty good. But the one where I am now is terrible. Even ready meals tend to be on their BBD when I go round, I always have to check these carefully.

Originally posted by Anne23
I get plenty of veg from M&S and its fine, lasts as well as any other veg.
M&S food is lovely, but has a less than lovely price tag. I haven't shopped for food there in a while, as my nearest M&S is some miles away, but I also remember M&S fruit and veg as being vastly over-packaged: apples packed in plastic trays and sealed in polythene. I prefer to buy fruit and veg loose.

Originally posted by Anne23
Alot of organic produce is now similarly priced to non-organics.. especially if you stick to seasonal veg which makes sense anyway.
I certainly don't find this to be the case. Even at Tesco or Sainsbury's, organic veg is much more expensive than the non-organic equivalent.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Now that you've quit diet coke, and if you experience relief, then you won't know whether it was caffeine or aspartame.

My belief is that we all have different sensitivities - and the future belongs to those who are fortunate enough not to experience disease symptoms from additives, pollution, animal dander, peanuts, gluten, lactose, industrialised world effluent etc.

No its not Caffein, I thought it was. I used to use Pro-Plus (very high concentrate), no probs, except high energy and hyper activity. Decided to give them up , but only problems I suffered with them were dry mouth. It was only when mixed with Diet-Coke I got the ol' "Ectopics". Of course this is looking back, so memory may be distorted (another side effect of "Aspartame")

I continued to use Diet-Coke (and other products I never realised containing "Aspartame") and whenever my usage stopped or decreased I felt fine. When I upped my consumption then Bang!!! I was ill again. Coincidence, i'm not sure.

What I will do though is give up the ol' "Aspartame" for a good while and see how I feel. Then i'l try some Caffein, then some Aspartame and let you know the results. This way I will then be sure which is the worst. At this moment in time i'm believing "Aspartame" is the bad sh*t.

Originally posted by Twiglet
Unfortunately organic food tends to be more expensive. Fresh ingredients are also more expensive than buying prepared meals when you live alone and have no freezer. They also require shopping every couple of days and preparation time which is often unrealistic for those of us who work long hours.
I agree with that. In these days of 3 for £5 ready-meals being available at Asda or Tesco I defy anyone to make the equivalent meals from scratch, using fresh ingredients, for the same price. I know I couldn't. Then again, I'm sure there are better, more intrepid cooks out there than me.

Personally, I hate to cook and, as I'm congenitally lazy, I wouldn't want to spend my Saturday slaving in the kitchen making up the following weeks' meals to store in the freezer.

If there was someone at home who actually enjoyed cooking, and wouldn't mind cooking up a tasty dinner from scratch every night, then that would be fantastic. As it is, a quick blast in the microwave and I can settle down in front of the TV with my dinner and a glass of wine.

I suppose if you're an avid label watcher, choosing to avoid E numbers and associated additives, then you have a problem. You're forced to cook from scratch in order to control exactly what goes into your meal.

Originally posted by wayne72
Makes you wonder how we lived before the Oil age!
I suppose people lived at a more leisurely pace; less commuting, fewer instances of both partners in a couple going out to work, more time for shopping and cooking with ingredients bought at the local grocers, bakers and butchers shops.

Originally posted by ppn_2204
I agree with that. In these days of 3 for £5 ready-meals being available at Asda or Tesco I defy anyone to make the equivalent meals from scratch, using fresh ingredients, for the same price. I know I couldn't. Then again, I'm sure there are better, more intrepid cooks out there than me.

Personally, I hate to cook and, as I'm congenitally lazy, I wouldn't want to spend my Saturday slaving in the kitchen making up the following weeks' meals to store in the freezer.

If there was someone at home who actually enjoyed cooking, and wouldn't mind cooking up a tasty dinner from scratch every night, then that would be fantastic. As it is, a quick blast in the microwave and I can settle down in front of the TV with my dinner and a glass of wine.

I suppose if you're an avid label watcher, choosing to avoid E numbers and associated additives, then you have a problem. You're forced to cook from scratch in order to control exactly what goes into your meal.

I don't mind cooking and a do it every so often when the mood takes me, but as I said I live alone, and you can't really make a meal for one (notice how chicken breasts come in packs of two or more, and I don't like leaving one open) so it always seems a sinful waste of food. Sometimes I do refrigerate stuff for the next day but I rarely feel like eating the same meal two nights in a row.

After a long day at work if I've not got in until 7.30 or 8 I am feeling pretty lazy and it's not just about the cooking, but the inordinate amount of washing up cooking a meal from scratch entails!

I'm not a label watcher at all, although I do occasionally check ingredients (I despise mushrooms, its surprising how many meals have them hidden in!) and I do try and avoid anything with enormous amounts of artificial colours, e-numbers etc but I'm not terribly picky about them.

As for the pre-packaged fruit and veg thing, don't you always open them up and find a huge bruise or maggot hole on the other side? I also always pick my own loose.

Twiglet, my comments about cooking (and my lack of it) and ready meals (and my fondness for them), were not aimed at you. I was agreeing with your comments, particularly about the expense of fresh veg and the impracticalities (and, as far as I'm concerned, the downright tiresomeness) of cooking from scratch on a regular basis, especially during the week.
Originally posted by Twiglet
I'm not a label watcher at all, although I do occasionally check ingredients (I despise mushrooms, its surprising how many meals have them hidden in!) and I do try and avoid anything with enormous amounts of artificial colours, e-numbers etc but I'm not terribly picky about them.
Sorry if I've read your comments incorrectly (all this forum participation is apparently making me slightly paranoid ;)), but again, my comments about label watching were general, and certainly not aimed at you or anyone else inparticular.
Originally posted by Twiglet
As for the pre-packaged fruit and veg thing, don't you always open them up and find a huge bruise or maggot hole on the other side? I also always pick my own loose.
Fortunately, I've been lucky with maggots, but I agree with the comments about bruising. I always seem to get the bag of satsumas with the green ones hidden in the middle.

Alot of organic produce has come down in price massively recently. Maybe it depends where you shop. Sainsburies seems fine to me and alot of the stuff in M&S seems a similar price to the non-organic. I also shop at my local organic green grocers and his prices are very reasonable.

Plus if you go late at night you often get some great reductions on the organic section :thumbsup:

There are plenty of things you can cook from scratch quickly.. I have a Nigel Slater "fast food" book and everything in there is lovely and takes less than 1/2 hour to cook.

It just depends where your priorities are I guess.. for me its eating well and eating healthily. If I spend a few quid more a week and take an extra 1/4 hour in the kitchen at night then thats not a problem. I think I will be glad I made the effort in the long term.

I agree on the packaging tho - far too much of it from most supermarkets. Thats why the local green gocer is best!

Originally posted by Anne23
Alot of organic produce has come down in price massively recently.
Yes it has; but it's still vastly over-priced. In many cases more than twice the price of the equivalent non-organic product.
Originally posted by Anne23
Plus if you go late at night you often get some great reductions on the organic section :thumbsup:
I usually find there's nothing left apart from a couple of shriveled carrots and some wilted broccoli :). Any reductions in the organic section have usually taken the price down to that of the fresh non-organic veg, unless the product is really past its best. I try to buy fruit and veg when they're really fresh. I find they last longer, which is useful as I can't get to the supermarket as often as I'd like.
Originally posted by Anne23
There are plenty of things you can cook from scratch quickly.. I have a Nigel Slater "fast food" book and everything in there is lovely and takes less than 1/2 hour to cook.
Assuming of course that you can cook and like to cook :). I freely admit to lacking the cooking gene, and I usually find that the end result of my infrequent efforts don't live up to the expectations promised by the recipe.
Originally posted by Anne23
It just depends where your priorities are I guess.. for me its eating well and eating healthily. If I spend a few quid more a week and take an extra 1/4 hour in the kitchen at night then thats not a problem. I think I will be glad I made the effort in the long term.
It's rather a leap - and, if you'll forgive me, just a little sanctimonious of you - to suggest that because I don't buy organic veg and prefer not to cook, my priorities are not eating well and healthily. I stated that I eat ready meals. I didn't say that I take myself off to McDonalds every night, or eat high fat, high salt, low fibre concoctions.
Originally posted by Anne23
I agree on the packaging tho - far too much of it from most supermarkets. Thats why the local green gocer is best!
Yes, M&S particularly is notorious for their abysmal use of excess packaging. The local greengrocer may be best, but unfortunatley I don't have one (it closed last year). The reason it closed was probably because the products available were relatively expensive compared to the supermarket, the selection was restricted and it wasn't open at the times when I do my shopping. The harsh realities of competition from neighbouring supermarkets.

Additionally, I'm fortunate enough to be able to choose exactly what I eat and where I buy it from. Many people have to buy the food which fits into a more restricted budget. Organic products are beyond the reach of many people, whether they would want to buy them or not.

Readers of this thread may be interested in these websites:

http://www.tfx.org.uk/ and http://www.bantransfats.com/

Originally posted by margarete
Readers of this thread may be interested in these websites:

http://www.tfx.org.uk/ and http://www.bantransfats.com/
Oooh, something I almost agree with :hihi: .

Trans fats are bad for you. Eat fewer trans fats. Eat lots of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids and you can't go wrong.

Don't agree with the ban though. Make information available about the pros and cons of the foods we eat, and let people make their own minds up.

Unfortunately, too many people find the web site of the latest health guru nut ball and take the information presented there as gospel. If someone claims to be a 'nutritionist' (or whatever field the quack of the day claims to be an expert in ), then look at their qualifications, look at what they've published (and no, books don't count. We're talking peer-reviewed journals), look to see what products they're trying to sell. In the case of their qualifications, it's admitedly difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. Not all PhDs are created equal....

Look at sources of objective information. Not every medic, scientist, NHS health professional etc is in the pay of some shady government or commercial organization who're seeking to keep some elusive truth hidden from the people.

PPN_2204 - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)

In my experience organic veg isn't as expensive as you're making out. I find the organic products I buy (reduced or otherwise) have a reasonable shelf life. I find it worrying if any veg stays fresh for longer than a few days -what crap have they sprayed it with to keep it fresh for longer? I admit I'm lucky that I can do a weekly shop and can go to places that have a good range of organic products.

I wasn't being sanctimonius.. in my opinion eating ready meals isn't eating healthily (just my opinion!!). If there are hydrogenated fats and modified this and thats in it I personally would avoid it (apart from the odd biscuit here and there!). Eating healthily to me is cooking from raw ingredients. Alot of nights I don't get in til 8pm, but I'll still spend half an hour cooking something properly. My choice. I know other people just want to come in and bang something in the oven. Their choice. I just wouldn't myself.

I just think that its hard to know whats best with all the conflicting advice about foods and which are good and bad for you so I'm making sure I know whats going in my food, just incase!

Another easy way to eat organic for less - visit the wholefoods cash and carry LEMBAS in Meersbrook (open to the public) for bulk buys of all organic staple foods and other things such as organic juices and teas. Saves us LOADS of money and we end up shopping for just the fresh stuff on a weekly basis, the bulk bought staples last for months. Plus if you don't get to the shops one week you can always rustle something up from whats in the cupboard!

Originally posted by Anne23
PPN_2204 - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)

In my experience organic veg isn't as expensive as you're making out.

I feel the need to defend my eating habits here. I firmly believe in organic produce and would absolutely buy it every time if it wasn't a matter of cost. These are Tesco prices of exactly equivalent products and I don't think you can deny a significant price difference, (non organic prices first):


Carrots: 58p/kg £1.02/kg
Gala apples: 17p each 37p each
Chicken breasts: 8.99/kg 17.99/kg
Broccoli: 1.39/kg 2.99/kg

Originally posted by Twiglet
I feel the need to defend my eating habits here. I firmly believe in organic produce and would absolutely buy it every time if it wasn't a matter of cost. These are Tesco prices of exactly equivalent products and I don't think you can deny a significant price difference, (non organic prices first):


Carrots: 58p/kg £1.02/kg
Gala apples: 17p each 37p each
Chicken breasts: 8.99/kg 17.99/kg
Broccoli: 1.39/kg 2.99/kg

Agreed, there are still some products with silly prices but alot of them have come down alot... at Sainburys there are alot of products that show a much smaller difference:

White Potatoes : £0.55/kg 0.78p/kg
Peppers : 69p each 89p each
Tin chopped tomatoes: 37p 48p
Muesli: 34p/kg 35p/kg

(non organic first)

You just have check prices before you put stuff in your basket. I get some things from the local organic grocers and some things from the supermarkets... depends whats cheapest where. Alot of the time there are special offers on in the supermarkets which make it all alot cheaper.. plus theres the late night reductions :thumbsup: . But anyway, like I said, I'd rather pay a few extra quid than eat non-organic.

When it comes to things like chicken I would rather pay more and eat it less often than buy cheap chicken. I tend to eat veggie generally - only eating meat once or twice a week and when I do buy it I buy it from The Real Meat Specialist at Banner Cross which can guarentee the organic origins of all its products. It tastes great too :)

I might buy a pack of organic stewing steak for £6 but it will make enough for 6 meals.. So I think its worth it.

I'm not saying eating organic is the easiest or cheapest option, but its getting cheaper and with a little ingenuity it can be done on a reasonable budget.

Ready meals aren't an option for me as they are too high in fats, sugars, salt, additives and hydrogenated fats and can often lack essential vitamins and dietary fibre. I like doing things the way my gran does them! She's 87 and has another 20 years left in her at least!!!

Anne23, I wouldn't say that I disagree with you on everything you've said, though I really do dispute your assertion that organic products can be as inexpensive as non-organic. I actually browsed Tesco's online store to do a comparison of the current prices, but I see that Twiglet has already posted the information.

I have nothing against organic food. I simply choose, in most cases, not to buy it. This is predominantly as a little personal protest about the ridiculous prices. The exceptions are free range organic eggs and chicken (the latter of which I buy so infrequently I don't mind the extra expense), but this is more to do with animal welfare than anything else.

From your description of your cooking and eating habits, I would have to say that you seem to monitor and control what you consume to a greater extent than I do. Whether that makes you healthier than me, well, that's debatable. I'm content to moderate the amount of high-fat, high-salt etc food I eat, exercise a bit, eat my fruit and veg and keep taking the anti-oxidants (very important!).

As for the ready meals; they've come a long way. Gone are the days of frozen shepherd's pie complete with meat of questionable quality and origin. I guess it depends on which ones you choose.

Originally posted by ppn_2204
I really do dispute your assertion that organic products can be as inexpensive as non-organic.

They can be similarly priced, they can be ridiculously more expensive.. depends on the time of year and where you go etc. I just look for the products that are reasonable value.

Originally posted by ppn_2204

I have nothing against organic food. I simply choose, in most cases, not to buy it. This is predominantly as a little personal protest about the ridiculous prices.

But the more people that are willing to pay the extra 20p or so the cheaper the organic products are going to be (which we are already seeing as some prices are coming down). In the end we the consumers have all the power.

The reason so much veg tastes of nothing these days is because we're a nation obsessed with getting produce at the lowest price possible. If we're willing to pay a little bit more we will get better produce and economies of scale will come into effect. Then maybe we will get more fresh, locally grown produce and stop polluting the atmosphere by constantly flying our veg over from the other side of the world cos its a little bit cheaper.

Originally posted by ppn_2204
From your description of your cooking and eating habits, I would have to say that you seem to monitor and control what you consume to a greater extent than I do.

I do pay attention to what I'm eating.. but its just a case of a quick glance at the back of the packaging. Then instantly you know whether to avoid that product in the future. Its getting alot easier as companies know we're getting more interested in whats in a product and are reacting to market forces and changing their products for the better.

Originally posted by ppn_2204
Whether that makes you healthier than me, well, that's debatable. I'm content to moderate the amount of high-fat, high-salt etc food I eat, exercise a bit, eat my fruit and veg and keep taking the anti-oxidants (very important!).

Who knows. I just try to do what I think is necessary to be as healthy as I can. I go running 3 times a week, eat mainly veggie, eat organic as much as possible and eat as little dairy produce as I can (still love yoghurts too much to give them up!). I'm not a big fan of cooking but I have a few recipes that I know I can do and its suprising how easy Jamie Oliver recipes are to follow if you just give him a chance!

Originally posted by ppn_2204
As for the ready meals; they've come a long way. Gone are the days of frozen shepherd's pie complete with meat of questionable quality and origin. I guess it depends on which ones you choose.

I think you can still find dodgy shepherds pies lurking in the cheaper side of the freezer section! And I think alot of ready meals that claim to be healthy are far from it. But we are a nation obsessed with convienience and I doubt thats likely to change.

Originally posted by Anne23
They can be similarly priced, they can be ridiculously more expensive.. depends on the time of year and where you go etc. I just look for the products that are reasonable value.



But the more people that are willing to pay the extra 20p or so the cheaper the organic products are going to be (which we are already seeing as some prices are coming down). In the end we the consumers have all the power.

The reason so much veg tastes of nothing these days is because we're a nation obsessed with getting produce at the lowest price possible. If we're willing to pay a little bit more we will get better produce and economies of scale will come into effect. Then maybe we will get more fresh, locally grown produce and stop polluting the atmosphere by constantly flying our veg over from the other side of the world cos its a little bit cheaper.



I do pay attention to what I'm eating.. but its just a case of a quick glance at the back of the packaging. Then instantly you know whether to avoid that product in the future. Its getting alot easier as companies know we're getting more interested in whats in a product and are reacting to market forces and changing their products for the better.



Who knows. I just try to do what I think is necessary to be as healthy as I can. I go running 3 times a week, eat mainly veggie, eat organic as much as possible and eat as little dairy produce as I can (still love yoghurts too much to give them up!). I'm not a big fan of cooking but I have a few recipes that I know I can do and its suprising how easy Jamie Oliver recipes are to follow if you just give him a chance!



I think you can still find dodgy shepherds pies lurking in the cheaper side of the freezer section! And I think alot of ready meals that claim to be healthy are far from it. But we are a nation obsessed with convienience and I doubt thats likely to change.

DAM! :clap:

Originally posted by Anne23
They can be similarly priced, they can be ridiculously more expensive.. depends on the time of year and where you go etc. I just look for the products that are reasonable value.

But the more people that are willing to pay the extra 20p or so the cheaper the organic products are going to be (which we are already seeing as some prices are coming down). In the end we the consumers have all the power.
Like many people, I shop at the local supermarket; usually Tesco, but occasionally Sainsbury's. Sticking to veg, and seasonal products specifically, a quick check at Tesco's online store brings up a couple of examples:

Parsnips (500g) - 84p
Organic Parsnips (500g) - £1.59

Potatoes (2.5 Kg) - 93p
Organic Potatoes (2.5 Kg) - £1.94

The difference is a little more than '20p'.
Originally posted by Anne23
The reason so much veg tastes of nothing these days is because we're a nation obsessed with getting produce at the lowest price possible. If we're willing to pay a little bit more we will get better produce and economies of scale will come into effect.
Well, my non-organic brocolli, kale, parsnips etc taste rather good to me, and certainly not of nothing. I'm also not obsessed with getting produce at the lowest possible price. I suspect that the average shopper is capable of distinguishing between items which are reasonable value for money, and those which are simply cheap.

Personally, I don't buy the cheapest possible vegetables, irrespective of quality, and - with the exception of items like over-the-counter medicines and other non-food items - I don't go for the supermarket 'value' own brands. However, I imagine that many people buy those items because they find that they fit better into their budget than the more expensive items.
Originally posted by Anne23
Then maybe we will get more fresh, locally grown produce and stop polluting the atmosphere by constantly flying our veg over from the other side of the world cos its a little bit cheaper.
I agree. In an ideal world all fruit and veg would be locally grown, using a minimum of pesticides and would be available for all to enjoy at a reasonable price.
Originally posted by Anne23
I do pay attention to what I'm eating.. but its just a case of a quick glance at the back of the packaging. Then instantly you know whether to avoid that product in the future. Its getting alot easier as companies know we're getting more interested in whats in a product and are reacting to market forces and changing their products for the better.
Once again, I agree. I suspect that you avoid rather more products than I do though ;).

Originally posted by Anne23
Who knows. I just try to do what I think is necessary to be as healthy as I can. I go running 3 times a week, eat mainly veggie, eat organic as much as possible and eat as little dairy produce as I can (still love yoghurts too much to give them up!). I'm not a big fan of cooking but I have a few recipes that I know I can do and its suprising how easy Jamie Oliver recipes are to follow if you just give him a chance!
Yes, I retract my previous statement, you are without doubt more healthy than me :). Going back to the original point; no, I don't cook very often. I don't enjoy it, I'm not very good at it and during the week I'm usually too tired and frankly can't be bothered. I didn't say that I couldn't follow the recipes; I said the end result is usally disappointing, probably due to the aforementioned.
Originally posted by Anne23
I think you can still find dodgy shepherds pies lurking in the cheaper side of the freezer section! And I think alot of ready meals that claim to be healthy are far from it. But we are a nation obsessed with convienience and I doubt thats likely to change.
I guess I'm just not looking in the right section of the freezer for the dodgy Shepherd's pies. I agree, many ready meals are undoubtedly less than healthy. I look at the label, assess the ingredients as much as I am able, and choose accordingly.

As for whether we are a nation obsessed with convenience, I'm not sure why you think that's a bad thing. I use a washing machine instead of washing my clothes by hand, I use the automatic banking facilities instead of queuing in the bank, I shop online whenever possible instead of braving the crowds in the city centre... and I eat ready meals. I'm all for convenience :).

Originally posted by Ramen
DAM! :clap:
Ramen, I'm not sure what this means, let alone what it contributes to the debate.

Originally posted by ppn_2204
As for whether we are a nation obsessed with convenience, I'm not sure why you think that's a bad thing.

I'm all for it too! I don't think its a bad thing in general. I just think sometimes, especially when it comes to food, its taken too far. I guess, as with everything, theres a happy medium somewhere. :)

How Splenda is Made

According to the Splenda International Patent A23L001-236 and PEP Review #90-1-4 (July 1991), sucralose is synthesized by this five-step process: 1. sucrose is tritylated with trityl chloride in the presence of dimethylformamide and 4-methylmorpholine and the tritylated sucrose is then acetylated with acetic anhydride, 2. the resulting TRISPA (6,1',6'-tri-O-trityl-penta-O-acetylsucrose) is chlorinated with hydrogen chloride in the presence of toluene, 3. the resulting 4-PAS (sucrose 2,3,4,3',4'-pentaacetate) is heated in the presence of methyl isobutyl ketone and acetic acid, 4. the resulting 6-PAS (sucrose 2,3,6,3',4'-pentaacetate) is chlorinated with thionyl chloride in the presence of toluene and benzyltriethylammonium chloride, and 5. the resulting TOSPA (sucralose pentaacetate) is treated with methanol (wood alcohol, a poison) in the presence of sodium methoxide to produce sucralose.

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