As Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg used as part of his justification for joining up with the Conservatives, the prize of electoral reform, if as seems possible, the voters vote no to the Alternative Vote system, will the only honourable course of action for Clegg, be to resign from his leadership of the party to make way for a less Conservative-friendly leader?

As Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg used as part of his justification for joining up with the Conservatives, the prize of electoral reform, if as seems possible, the voters vote no to the Alternative Vote system, will the only honourable course of action for Clegg, be to resign from his leadership of the party to make way for a less Conservative-friendly leader?

Not true ! The prize was a referendum the result of which is without the gift of his coalition partners !

As Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg used as part of his justification for joining up with the Conservatives, the prize of electoral reform, if as seems possible, the voters vote no to the Alternative Vote system, will the only honourable course of action for Clegg, be to resign from his leadership of the party to make way for a less Conservative-friendly leader?

Is it in any politicians power to change our electoral system, surely only us the people should have that power?

No, he only promised the referendum to select an alternative voting system, not to actually change it.

So voting NO to AV in the hope that it'll punish Clegg is wasting your vote. Either don't bother voting, or actually think about which voting system you prefer and vote accordingly.

No, he won't he is too greedy for that I suspect. Once they get a taste of power ....

Not true ! The prize was a referendum the result of which is without the gift of his coalition partners !

I agree with BritPat, without the Lib Dems in the coalition there probably would not have been a referendum at all. That's what they've achieved, the rest is up to the people.

The AV vote will end up being 50-50 so I can't see him resigning.

AV = won't happen, therefore no, Clegg will NOT resign.

The AV vote will end up being 50-50 so I can't see him resigning.

It's actually running around 60/40 in the "no" votes favour according to polls at the moment. Senior LibDems are already suggesting we should have yet another referendum on the issue if it's that close.
I wonder if they'll also be calling for another referendum if it's that close but the "yes to AV" gets the most votes.
Doubt it.

No, he only promised the referendum to select an alternative voting system, not to actually change it.

So voting NO to AV in the hope that it'll punish Clegg is wasting your vote. Either don't bother voting, or actually think about which voting system you prefer and vote accordingly.


Well that is not what YouGov's research has shown, that it is Labour who have most to lose under AV, as I posted a while back:

YouGov – Labour would do worse under AV
7 Apr 2011
There is a new YouGov poll for Channel 4 News asking how people would vote under AV. It projects that Labour would suffer the most under AV, with the Lib Dems gaining the most and the Conservatives largely unchanged – their losses would be cancelled out by gains.

On a normal uniform swing, the standard FPTP voting intention figures in the poll would give us 255 Conservative seats, 355 Labour, 16 Lib Dem and 24 Others – so a Labour majority of 60. YouGov’s projection of how the seats would pan out under people’s AV voting intentions are 255 Conservative seats (so no difference, though there will be churn in which seats!), 342 Labour (down 13 compared to FPTP) and 29 Liberal Democrats (up 13 compared to FPTP). Labour would instead only have a majority of 34.

At the previous election (and at elections before that) polls have repeatedly suggested that AV would favour the Liberal Democrats and Labour and disadvantage the Conservatives, or in some cases that both Labour and the Conservatives would both suffer, but the Conservatives would suffer more.

This was largely because Labour and Liberal Democrat voters told pollsters they would be very likely to give their second preferences to one another, while Conservative voters favoured the Liberal Democrats for second preferences, albeit less enthusiastically. Hence in Con v Lab marginals Liberal Democrat second preferences helped Labour, in Con vs LD marginals Labour second preferences helped the Lib Dems, and in the relatively small number of Lab v LD marginals Conservative second preferences helped the Lib Dems a bit.

Last Summer, when the coalition was still young and Lib Dem support was still in the mid teens, YouGov asked how people would vote under AV and found this pattern beginning to change. The remaining Liberal Democrat voters were as likely to give their second preferences to the Conservatives as to give it to Labour, and Labour voters had become significantly less likely to give their second preferences to the Liberal Democrats. At the time AV was still better for Labour than the Tories, but if the trends apprent then continued it could easily have changed.

This week YouGov & Channel 4 did a fresh exercise asking people once again to say how they’d vote under AV. This time we repeated the question used by the British Election Study in 2010, giving people a picture of a ballot paper and asking them to actually enter numbers next to as many or as few candidates as they wanted to. This allowed us to better project the actual effect than was possible last Summer – for example, Labour second preferences disproportionately go to the Green party, but given that the Green party will normally have already been eliminated in a count before Labour is, it’s actually their third or fourth preferences that count.

Conservative voters are now most likely to give second preferences to the Lib Dems (41%), followed by UKIP (27%). UKIP are, of course, unlikely to actually benefit from many Conservative second preferences – what will actually matter in the course of most election counts is how Conservative voters’ lower preferences divide between Labour and Liberal Democrats – here 29% of Conservative voters do not give Labour or the Liberal Democrats any preference, 8% put Labour higher on their ballot, 63% put the Liberal Democrats higher on their ballot.

When the BES ran the same question in May 2010 over half of Labour voters gave their second preferences to the Liberal Democrats. This has collapsed – 30% of Labour voters would now give second preferences to the Greens, 19% wouldn’t give one at all, 18% would give it to UKIP and only 16% to the Lib Dems. Taking into account preferences further down the ballot though, if it was between Lib Dems and Conservatives 46% of Labour ballots would end up being transferred to the Lib Dems, 12% to the Conservatives, 42% neither.

Turning to the Liberal Democrats, their second preferences now split fairly evenly, but with the Conservatives just ahead: 31% to the Conservatives, 24% to the Greens and 24% to Labour. Again, looking at what would ultimately happen to Lib Dem votes if they had to be transfered to Con or Lab, 46% would end up in the Conservative pile, 39% in the Labour pile, 15% neither.

The minor parties’s transfers end up much where you’d expect them – Green voters favour Lab or LD strongly over the Conservatives, and Labour slightly over the Lib Dems. UKIP voters tend to favour Conservatives over Lib Dems, Conservatives slightly over Labour. Around a third of BNP voters don’t give any preferences to any of the three main parties, but those that do tend to favour the Conservatives and Labour over the Lib Dems.

What this all boils down to is that in Con v Lab marginals the lower preferences of Lib Dems would help the Conservatives win seats from Labour, in Lab v LD seats Conservative lower preferences will help the Lib Dems win seats from Labour, in Con vs LD seats Labour lower preferences will help the Lib Dems… but Con losses there will be cancelled out by Con gains against Labour.

Of course, this all needs a lot of caveats – it assumes both a uniform swing, and that each parties second preferences split in the same proportions across the country. It also cannot take into account what effect an election campaign fought under AV would be – this poll shows people’s AV first preferences being largely the same as their FPTP vote, but I suspect in practice smaller parties would effectively campaign to get some people to use their first vote to send a message. All that aside though, it is looking as though AV would work against Labour, as Conservative and Lib Dem voters seem increasingly likely to give preferences to one another.

can anyone tell me whats the point of Nick Clegg. The man has sold his sole for a bit of power and is out of his depth and its time him and his loony party went to the opposition backbenches where they belong

As Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg used as part of his justification for joining up with the Conservatives, the prize of electoral reform, if as seems possible, the voters vote no to the Alternative Vote system, will the only honourable course of action for Clegg, be to resign from his leadership of the party to make way for a less Conservative-friendly leader?


in this life....everything is about first past the post.....we all like a winner....pity our football team don't favour that system...

in this life....everything is about first past the post.....we all like a winner....pity our football team don't favour that system...


Sadly I can't see the Owls or Blades prospering under any elecotral system yet know to man!

Will Milliband and Cameron resign if AV is accepted?

can anyone tell me whats the point of Nick Clegg. The man has sold his sole for a bit of power and is out of his depth and its time him and his loony party went to the opposition backbenches where they belong


its just like those people heading for britain....they see the grass is greener...he was never going to get power while flogging the dead horse of the liberals...and for once in his life...he fancied being on the winning team...cannot blame him for that...and get himself a nice safe seat somewhere in england...and live the highlife....just like all polititions...money grabbers the lot....we all would given the chance...

can anyone tell me whats the point of Nick Clegg. The man has sold his sole for a bit of power and is out of his depth and its time him and his loony party went to the opposition backbenches where they belong


His only reason point is keeping Smarmy Dave and his millionaire pals in power.

Sadly I can't see the Owls or Blades prospering under any elecotral system yet know to man!


probably in syria if the president supported them....

I can't see Clegg resigning over a decision taken by the British public. He's delivered on the referendum, that is his job done. He had to keep one promise, didn't he?

If the vote is no, the Lib Dems will become a very interesting party. Thus far, many moderate Lib Dems have toed the party line, for a simple reason: PR is the ultimate prize for them as they have most to gain from it. If they can't even get AV past the electorate, I suspect that many activists will question the benefit of staying inside the coalition.

We have all seen the stress that the referendum campaign has placed upon the coalition. A no vote will increase that stress, not at Westminster, but in the grassroots of the party.

can anyone tell me whats the point of Nick Clegg.

Getting some Lib-Dem policies through Parliament is the point of Nick Clegg. He's been successful, unlike every Liberal leader (bar Steel for two years) since 1923.

Will Milliband and Cameron resign if AV is accepted?


:huh: Be very surprised as both are campaigning for it!

:huh: Be very surprised as both are campaigning for it!

Cameron isn't. Miliband is, I believe, though not all Labour activists support it.

Cameron isn't. Miliband is, I believe, though not all Labour activists support it.

Yes you are right I only noticed Milliband in Ruperts post, I guess it's easy to see through the Smarmy one!:D

As Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg used as part of his justification for joining up with the Conservatives, the prize of electoral reform, if as seems possible, the voters vote no to the Alternative Vote system, will the only honourable course of action for Clegg, be to resign from his leadership of the party to make way for a less Conservative-friendly leader?

I appreciate that you feel anyone who doesn't think that Gordon "I've abolished boom and bust" Brown is an avatar of the Creator should be shot, but you really do need to get a grip. Its been 12 months now, its time for you to accept that while the Conservatives may not have won a resounding victory, Labour definitely lost!

If AV is rejected then it may cause a bit of a stir within the lib dems but should they walk away from the coalition then they will look like sore losers which wont do their standing any good. There may be some pressure on Clegg to resign but I can see it going anywhere and even if he was to resign his successor is likely to come from the right of the party, For better or worse they are in the coalition until the end, and so I can't see anyone from the left of the party wanting to lead the party in this situation.

On the other hand, if AV is accepted then it is likely to cause an outright rebellion in the right of the Conservative party, Cameron wasn't popular with them before the and going into coalition is viewed by them as treason.

The one definite thing that the coalition has achieved, is that it has allowed Cameron to marginalise the loony right of his party and they hate that.

Accepting AV, particularly if UKIP also do well in the local elections, is going to lead to pressure on Cameron which he may not be able to withstand. If Cameron falls then the coalition is unlikely to survive, especially if a more right wing leader is elected. If Cameron doesn't fall then the right will cripple the coalition the same way as they did to John Major's final government.

Getting some Lib-Dem policies through Parliament is the point of Nick Clegg. He's been successful, unlike every Liberal leader (bar Steel for two years) since 1923.

at the end of the day he is the tories puppet

I can't see Clegg resigning over a decision taken by the British public. He's delivered on the referendum, that is his job done. He had to keep one promise, didn't he?

If the vote is no, the Lib Dems will become a very interesting party. Thus far, many moderate Lib Dems have toed the party line, for a simple reason: PR is the ultimate prize for them as they have most to gain from it. If they can't even get AV past the electorate, I suspect that many activists will question the benefit of staying inside the coalition.

We have all seen the stress that the referendum campaign has placed upon the coalition. A no vote will increase that stress, not at Westminster, but in the grassroots of the party.

Agreed. The party leaders are going to face an uphill battle if AV is rejected.

It could be very interesting. I wonder how many Lib Dem MPs will remain loyal to their leader?

Could a Liberal Party re-emerge?

Agreed. The party leaders are going to face an uphill battle if AV is rejected.

It could be very interesting. I wonder how many Lib Dem MPs will remain loyal to their leader?

Could a Liberal Party re-emerge?

It could indeed. I have my fingers firmly crossed that one will.

The current state of UK politics is very unhealthy. There is little substantive difference between the Labour Party and the Tories. A distinctive, proper Liberal Party could be a breath of fresh air and very popular.

at the end of the day he is the tories puppet

How does forcing the Tories to water down their policies, make you their puppet? :huh:

It could indeed. I have my fingers firmly crossed that one will.

The current state of UK politics is very unhealthy. There is little substantive difference between the Labour Party and the Tories. A distinctive, proper Liberal Party could be a breath of fresh air and very popular.

a proper liberal party wouldn't be much different to the bit of the lib dems which clegg hangs out in. let's not forget that the original labour party came about because the liberal party didn't represent the working class man much better than the conservative party did.

a "what used to be the sdp" centre leftish and without the neolib/con rubbish party would be far more use. i had some hope that miliband would drift labour in that direction but there doesn't seem to be much sign of that at the minute.

I appreciate that you feel anyone who doesn't think that Gordon "I've abolished boom and bust" Brown is an avatar of the Creator should be shot, but you really do need to get a grip. Its been 12 months now, its time for you to accept that while the Conservatives may not have won a resounding victory, Labour definitely lost!

If AV is rejected then it may cause a bit of a stir within the lib dems but should they walk away from the coalition then they will look like sore losers which wont do their standing any good. There may be some pressure on Clegg to resign but I can see it going anywhere and even if he was to resign his successor is likely to come from the right of the party, For better or worse they are in the coalition until the end, and so I can't see anyone from the left of the party wanting to lead the party in this situation.

On the other hand, if AV is accepted then it is likely to cause an outright rebellion in the right of the Conservative party, Cameron wasn't popular with them before the and going into coalition is viewed by them as treason.

The one definite thing that the coalition has achieved, is that it has allowed Cameron to marginalise the loony right of his party and they hate that.

Accepting AV, particularly if UKIP also do well in the local elections, is going to lead to pressure on Cameron which he may not be able to withstand. If Cameron falls then the coalition is unlikely to survive, especially if a more right wing leader is elected. If Cameron doesn't fall then the right will cripple the coalition the same way as they did to John Major's final government.

Yep, nobody won the election. Whichever way the AV vote goes it could be difficuilt for Clegg. If the No's win then he will come under pressure from what's left of his party about what the point of continuing with the Cons is.
Also if the No's win Cameron could decide to ditch the coalition and go for an election to try to secure a Tory majority in it's own right.

If the Yes's win then his partys' participation in the coaltion could be said to have finally yielded something tangible and will give the Libs hope that they will finally break the mould of two party politics in this country, if enough voters ever forgive them for jumping into bed with the Cons.

How does forcing the Tories to water down their policies, make you their puppet? :huh:

I hate to have to aggree with you but I still think Clegg is a maverick, although not a very smart one. I reckon the next general election will see the demise of Clegg and his party.

I hate to have to aggree with you but I still think Clegg is a maverick, although not a very smart one. I reckon the next general election will see the demise of Clegg and his party.


Hmmm, thats one way of putting it!:D

at the end of the day he is the tories puppet

The junior partner?

A distinctive, proper Liberal Party could be a breath of fresh air and very popular.

So true ……….. its just a shame that Clegg as thrown it all away for his two minutes of fame ……… talking of which ……….. Clegg hasn’t even had a mention in this morning’s coverage of the royal wedding.

Nice little story from Cameron about what he had bought the couple for a wedding present though. :roll:

So true ……….. its just a shame that Clegg as thrown it all away for his two minutes of fame ……… talking of which ……….. Clegg hasn’t even had a mention in this morning’s coverage of the royal wedding.

Nice little ditty about from Cameron about what he had bought the couple for a wedding present though. :roll:

He at number 10 looking after the baby while smarmy dave and his mrs go to the wedding

He at number 10 looking after the baby while smarmy dave and his mrs go to the wedding




:hihi::hihi: Probably booked another holiday!:hihi:

He at number 10 looking after the baby while smarmy dave and his mrs go to the wedding

I hope he remembers he is in control while Cameron is having a knees up.

He as sneaked in, I have just seen him. :D

can anyone tell me whats the point of Nick Clegg.
As I have said before, if you're that upset about him, call out the people of Hallam in a referendum specifically to tell him so.
The man has sold his sole for a bit of power...
Is he a fishmonger as well? ;)

As I have said before, if you're that upset about him, call out the people of Hallam in a referendum specifically to tell him so.

Is he a fishmonger as well? ;)



Probably not his plaice to say.

Is it in any politicians power to change our electoral system, surely only us the people should have that power?
Erm yes....... that's why we're voting on it on the 5th. :rolleyes:

Perhaps a more meaningful question is will Wednesday1 ever get over his sour grapes?

A distinctive, proper Liberal Party could be a breath of fresh air and very popular.

But if they pursued realistic policies that might actually address the nation's problems, they would be very unpopular.

Most people seem to think that we should go back to a massive debt based bubble economy, creating more and more public sector non-jobs, funded by endless borrowing and money printing (QE).

That's the consensus I've garnered from reading Sheffield Forum anyway.

The people want free money from out of the bottomless money barrel. That's why they'll vote Labour at the next General Election.

Perhaps a more meaningful question is will Wednesday1 ever get over his sour grapes?


Lol! With a bit of luck they may start getting sweeter soon!;)

I cant see why he should resign.He wanted to give the people 1 chance to change politics for good. The people have that 1 chance on the 5th May and a chance to make it easier to get rid of bad MPs and also a kick up the backside for Westminster Politics.I guess the problem is that this may be the only chance.

It is up to the people to decide......

Maybe you should read this blogpost from ConservativeHome Wednesday1

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/04/david-cameron-should-prepare-for-an-early-general-election.html

Of course a lot depends on both local election results, and of course the AV referendum. If there is a "No" vote then the chances of a leadership challenge against Clegg increase dramatically.

The other factor to take into account is the Lib Dem's chances of a very heavy defeat if Cameron does call a snap election, and how perpared both Labour and Lib Dems are for a snap election.

Mind you, I'll still be voting in the AV referendum based on the merits of the voting systems in question, which of course makes me No2AV!

Maybe you should read this blogpost from ConservativeHome Wednesday1

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/04/david-cameron-should-prepare-for-an-early-general-election.html

Of course a lot depends on both local election results, and of course the AV referendum. If there is a "No" vote then the chances of a leadership challenge against Clegg increase dramatically.

The other factor to take into account is the Lib Dem's chances of a very heavy defeat if Cameron does call a snap election, and how perpared both Labour and Lib Dems are for a snap election.

Mind you, I'll still be voting in the AV referendum based on the merits of the voting systems in question, which of course makes me No2AV!


Thanks for that, interesting.

It looks like the knives will be sharpening already! Some bookies are already paying out people who bet that AV would be rejected.:)

It is odd that everyone seems to be missing the greatest prize concession that Clegg won as part of the coalition agreement. That was for a reform of the House of Lords. The reform would give the Libdems a far greater say in the upper chamber, and possibly the power balance. If as some on here are suggesting there was an early election that concession would be lost and all those sacrifices would be for nothing. It doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe you should read this blogpost from ConservativeHome Wednesday1

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/04/david-cameron-should-prepare-for-an-early-general-election.html

Of course a lot depends on both local election results, and of course the AV referendum. If there is a "No" vote then the chances of a leadership challenge against Clegg increase dramatically.

The other factor to take into account is the Lib Dem's chances of a very heavy defeat if Cameron does call a snap election, and how perpared both Labour and Lib Dems are for a snap election.

Mind you, I'll still be voting in the AV referendum based on the merits of the voting systems in question, which of course makes me No2AV!

this might be the tories wet dream material but it is no more than that. the sane challenger's for the leadership are all embedded in the coalition so replacing clegg won't achieve anything. anyone from outside this inner circle won't dare challenge as they know they will be leading the party into a wipeout and from their point of view it would be better to take the leadership after rather than before defeat.

the lib dems only chance of survival is to see the parliament through to the end and hope for the best. an alternative scenario is for the party to split, the left of the party reforms the sdp and clegg leads the remnant of the party into oblivion at the next election. either way the coalition survives!

if cameron was to call a snap election, i really don't think that he would do much better than he did last year, and would probably do worse. the only hope for a conservative majority government is for them to see the parliament through to the end in the hope of enough of a recovery to bolster support in the floating voter.

at the end of the day he is the tories puppet

As opposed to being Labour's puppet had he joined in a coalition with them?

At the end of the day whichever party the Liberals joined with they would have been the junior partner because they got far fewer seats.

They could of course have gone it alone and left the Conservatives to struggle on with no overall majority, but surely after the financial mess Brown has left us with we need strong Government to sort that mess out.

I don't think a coalition is an ideal option, but under the current financial circumstances I consider it to be the best option available.

Maybe it would have been better had the Liberals sided with Labour, at least then Labour could be left to sort their own mess out!!

Regards

Doom

Its sort of amusing how the left has the knives out for Clegg. He actually led his party into power and obtained the referendum that they sought. It isn't his fault if the electorate won't deliver a Yes vote.
It seems to me that the person with most to lose in the vote would be Cameron. He is the one who upset his party grass roots by making the concession for an AV vote. If the country voted Yes to AV it would probably be the end for Cameron. I presume that's why Milliband is backing AV and is about to miss an open goal.

As opposed to being Labour's puppet had he joined in a coalition with them?

At the end of the day whichever party the Liberals joined with they would have been the junior partner because they got far fewer seats.

They could of course have gone it alone and left the Conservatives to struggle on with no overall majority, but surely after the financial mess Brown has left us with we need strong Government to sort that mess out.

I don't think a coalition is an ideal option, but under the current financial circumstances I consider it to be the best option available.

Maybe it would have been better had the Liberals sided with Labour, at least then Labour could be left to sort their own mess out!!

Regards

Doom


I have lived under two coalition governments in Ireland. The truth is, the junior partner has a hugely disproportionate amount of iunfluence, because the major party (unless there is another party prepared to form a coalition) depends on them as the only chance of remaining in government.

The truth is Clegg has gone along with a radical right wing agaenda for reasons other than he is stating. Either he is so excited about being in power that he doesn't mind selling his voters short, or the Tory agenda is not as ideologically unpalatable to him as he was pretending before the election.

this might be the tories wet dream material but it is no more than that. the sane challenger's for the leadership are all embedded in the coalition so replacing clegg won't achieve anything. anyone from outside this inner circle won't dare challenge as they know they will be leading the party into a wipeout and from their point of view it would be better to take the leadership after rather than before defeat.

the lib dems only chance of survival is to see the parliament through to the end and hope for the best. an alternative scenario is for the party to split, the left of the party reforms the sdp and clegg leads the remnant of the party into oblivion at the next election. either way the coalition survives!

if cameron was to call a snap election, i really don't think that he would do much better than he did last year, and would probably do worse. the only hope for a conservative majority government is for them to see the parliament through to the end in the hope of enough of a recovery to bolster support in the floating voter.

I disagree about the likely result of a snap election. I don't think that Labour has done enough to take votes off the Tories and the Tories would benefit from a Lib Dem collapse just as much as Labour, which would in turn lead to the Tories having enough seats to form a government on their own.

If the Lib Dems can take on the Tories in a public fight over NHS reform or the like and win then they could possibly stop the rot. If they just keep clinging on waiting for the inevitable then the Lib Dem's future will be very bleak.

It doesn't make sense to me.

I think you are supposed to wear these. (http://www.awaygoalsrule.co.uk/images/rj1_7sm_specs.jpg)

I disagree about the likely result of a snap election. I don't think that Labour has done enough to take votes off the Tories and the Tories would benefit from a Lib Dem collapse just as much as Labour, which would in turn lead to the Tories having enough seats to form a government on their own.

If the Lib Dems can take on the Tories in a public fight over NHS reform or the like and win then they could possibly stop the rot. If they just keep clinging on waiting for the inevitable then the Lib Dem's future will be very bleak.


If the Lib Dems were not in coalition the reforms to the NHs would be much worse that they will be as a result of the Lib Dems having some input.

[/B]
If the Lib Dems were not in coalition the reforms to the NHs would be much worse that they will be as a result of the Lib Dems having some input.

Oh thats alright then :roll:

I think you are supposed to wear these. (http://www.awaygoalsrule.co.uk/images/rj1_7sm_specs.jpg)

Ah I see, you need to wear red specs for it to make sense. That explains the lunacy. So do you think Ed Milliband will resign when the electorate reject AV as he seems to be its current figurehead?

Oh thats alright then :roll:

Not sure what you imply. Would you rather that the tories had complete free reign over what happened to the nhs?

It wont be rejected. Good sources tell me its a resounding `Yes` to push it through. (Roughly 82.5% are in favour of AV)

It wont be rejected. Good sources tell me its a resounding `Yes` to push it through. (Roughly 82.5% are in favour of AV)

I had thought it was much closer than that.Not sure how you can arrive at that figure.82.5% is quite specific.

As Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg used as part of his justification for joining up with the Conservatives, the prize of electoral reform, if as seems possible, the voters vote no to the Alternative Vote system, will the only honourable course of action for Clegg, be to resign from his leadership of the party to make way for a less Conservative-friendly leader?

mr clegg will hopefully resign. it's been twelve painful months watching "our mate nick" courting with his buddy mr cameron. i don't know anyone who voted lib dem that will vote for them again with clegg in charge.

Clegg is a political opportunist, so he is extremely unlikely to resign when it's "No". The previous general election was his (and the LibDems) one and only chance to be in office, he/they jumped at it and sold their souls.

Both they and the Tories more or less tore up their manifestos to satisfy the other to be able to form the current coalition. So the wishes of every Tory and LibDem voter have been ignored by the parties they voted for on the grounds of the ambitions of individual politicians. But that's what you'll ALWAYS get with any electoral system that isn't FPTP. Back-door deals that no one votes on.

AV means the LibDems would always be kingmakers and thus always in power - totally undemocratic. God help this country if we end up like Italy or Israel where small (and occasionally extreme) parties hold the balance of power. You have been warned.

VOTE NO.

Clegg is a political opportunist, so he is extremely unlikely to resign when it's "No". The previous general election was his (and the LibDems) one and only chance to be in office, he/they jumped at it and sold their souls.

Both they and the Tories more or less tore up their manifestos to satisfy the other to be able to form the current coalition. So the wishes of every Tory and LibDem voter have been ignored by the parties they voted for on the grounds of the ambitions of individual politicians. But that's what you'll ALWAYS get with any electoral system that isn't FPTP. Back-door deals that no one votes on.

AV means the LibDems would always be kingmakers and thus always in power - totally undemocratic. God help this country if we end up like Italy or Israel where small (and occasionally extreme) parties hold the balance of power. You have been warned.

VOTE NO.


Excellent post, succinctly sums things up.:)

Excellent post, succinctly sums things up.:)

and yet the oh so perfect first past the post produced this coalition............

and yet the oh so perfect first past the post produced this coalition............

But it doesn't usually do that. It will be simple to get rid of them at the next election too. Just vote labour:D

Not sure what you imply. Would you rather that the tories had complete free reign over what happened to the nhs?

No because they didnt get enough votes until Clegg bailed them out.

and yet the oh so perfect first past the post produced this coalition............


:huh: I thought you supported it!?:confused:

I had thought it was much closer than that.Not sure how you can arrive at that figure.82.5% is quite specific.

Sorry. 72.5%

No because they didnt get enough votes until Clegg bailed them out.

Had he not gone in to coalition then you would have no overall control by any party and the markets would have gone in to freefall.I dont think people realise just what a state the economy was in at that time and the only thing to do was to do something rather than nothing.
If you think back the day after they had agreed to work together the markets steadied and we managed to maintain our credit status.

Clegg is a political opportunist, so he is extremely unlikely to resign when it's "No". The previous general election was his (and the LibDems) one and only chance to be in office, he/they jumped at it and sold their souls.

Both they and the Tories more or less tore up their manifestos to satisfy the other to be able to form the current coalition. So the wishes of every Tory and LibDem voter have been ignored by the parties they voted for on the grounds of the ambitions of individual politicians. But that's what you'll ALWAYS get with any electoral system that isn't FPTP. Back-door deals that no one votes on.

AV means the LibDems would always be kingmakers and thus always in power - totally undemocratic. God help this country if we end up like Italy or Israel where small (and occasionally extreme) parties hold the balance of power. You have been warned.

VOTE NO.

I think that Stephen fry explains it better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J31QkzWmmUc

If you think back the day after they had agreed to work together the markets steadied and we managed to maintain our credit status.

All thanks to super Nick (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SRTBaafRZfw/S85GleJ6wWI/AAAAAAAAD3w/9JcwUhoG1ds/s1600/Cartoon_709117a.jpg)………… ya right :roll:

Come on Nick, do the honourable thing!


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/may/07/scottish-election-tavish-scott-quits

The thing is, the LibDems didn't have to go into coalition with anyone, Labour or the Tories. I think if Clegg knew then what he knows now, he would have simply let the Tories form a minority government and voted for or against them as circumstances/policies dictated.

That government almost certainly would have fallen by now but at least the LibDems would have had real power over the Tories - "You drop/change policy X, or we vote against you and make you government fall" - but they got greedy, mistook Cleggmania for a long-term phenomenon and tied their horse to the Tory cart.

Now all they can do is to try to come the hard man with the Tories and hope the Tories will knuckle under. The fault with that line of thinking is that the Tories know full well that even if they get a hammering at the next general election, they'll be back in power one day. The same most definitely can't be said for the LibDems, so when push comes to shove, the Tories will simply take a general election defeat on the chin, leaving the LibDems forever on the margins in future.

If, by some miracle/disaster, the Tories manage to get enough seats to form their own government next time, are the LibDems naive enough to think they'll be invited to form part of that government? They couldn't be that stupid, could they?

Much as I loathe the Tories, you've got to admire the way they've let the LibDems take the front seat this last year and thus all the flak, a very, very slick bit of work indeed. Cable says they are ruthless, calculating and very tribal. Errm, didn't the LibDems know that before they got into bed with them, or are they completely delusional to think that "Tories" and "being reasonable" was ever going to happen?

It would all be funny, were it not for the state this country is going to be in by the time the current Tory government has finished with it. Gawd help us all!

That government almost certainly would have fallen by now

it might have fallen, but if it had then chances are it would have been replaced by a conservative administration with an overall majority

I think Nick Clegg is something of an innocent abroad, expecting fairplay from the Tories as part of the 'partnership.'

What an idiot, expecting smarmy, smooth talking, knife-in-the-shoulderblades, Cameron to play nicely.

Cameron has used Clegg as whipping boy at every opportunity, often by what he doesn't say as much as by what he does. Let's hope that Cleggy starts to wise up now and begins to make life hard for Dave - and more importantly - be seen to be making it hard by using the media with a bit more savvy.

nah I doubt it ,he likes sitting on the bench beside Cameron.Makes him feel good :P

Looking at the TV news this morning, it sounds like Clegg has decided to play the hard man. It further looks like Call me Dave is going to let him as well. Nicely putting the LibDems in front of the Tories when it all goes belly up and the blame game kicks off. Can you say "Human shield"?

Thus ensuring that the LibDems take the majority of the kicking from the electorate.

Cunning beggars those Tories.

Gullible fools those LibDems.

If I was a LibDem MP, I'd be jumping ship now and going over to Labour PDQ before the smelly stuff hits the whirly thing.

andyofborg - Then the electorate would know exactly who the enemy is. Exactly the same one that it is now, just conveniently (for the Tories) masked by the LibDems.

andyofborg - Then the electorate would know exactly who the enemy is. Exactly the same one that it is now, just conveniently (for the Tories) masked by the LibDems.

the electorate in scotland certainly do

the electorate in scotland certainly do

Indeed they do. I think the question being asked is should Milliband resign after Labour's disaterous performance in Scotland?
Just to recap on the election results from Thursday..

Following the English Council Elections the Conservatives now have 4820 councillors up 81 on the day. This compares with Labour who now have 2392 councillors. The conservatives now control 157 English Councils. 4 more than before the election. This compares to 57 councils under Labour control.
Labour had a disasterous showing in the Scottish Parliament loosing a shed load of seats and leaving the SNP with an overall majority in what had been Labour's stronghold. Theleader of the Labour party in Scotland has already fallen on his sword.
Milliband is totally devoid of charisma and I just wonder if he will still be around come the next General Election.

I actually feel a little sorry for Clegg,its obvious now that torries are just using him and he is taking much of the stick that Cameron would have otherwise got.

He does right to toughen up I would.

It wont be rejected. Good sources tell me its a resounding `Yes` to push it through. (Roughly 82.5% are in favour of AV)

Good sources? It was 68% in favour of no!

Would you care to name and shame these "good" sources who've mislead you so badly?

The thing is, the LibDems didn't have to go into coalition with anyone, Labour or the Tories. I think if Clegg knew then what he knows now, he would have simply let the Tories form a minority government and voted for or against them as circumstances/policies dictated.

That government almost certainly would have fallen by now but at least the LibDems would have had real power over the Tories - "You drop/change policy X, or we vote against you and make you government fall" - but they got greedy, mistook Cleggmania for a long-term phenomenon and tied their horse to the Tory cart.

Now all they can do is to try to come the hard man with the Tories and hope the Tories will knuckle under. The fault with that line of thinking is that the Tories know full well that even if they get a hammering at the next general election, they'll be back in power one day. The same most definitely can't be said for the LibDems, so when push comes to shove, the Tories will simply take a general election defeat on the chin, leaving the LibDems forever on the margins in future.

If, by some miracle/disaster, the Tories manage to get enough seats to form their own government next time, are the LibDems naive enough to think they'll be invited to form part of that government? They couldn't be that stupid, could they?

Much as I loathe the Tories, you've got to admire the way they've let the LibDems take the front seat this last year and thus all the flak, a very, very slick bit of work indeed. Cable says they are ruthless, calculating and very tribal. Errm, didn't the LibDems know that before they got into bed with them, or are they completely delusional to think that "Tories" and "being reasonable" was ever going to happen?
It would all be funny, were it not for the state this country is going to be in by the time the current Tory government has finished with it. Gawd help us all!



Exactly, the Lib Dems have behaved like the naive fools that they are, and are now held hostage in this coalition. If Clegg had little influence before, he has absolutely none now.

The thing is, the LibDems didn't have to go into coalition with anyone, Labour or the Tories. I think if Clegg knew then what he knows now, he would have simply let the Tories form a minority government and voted for or against them as circumstances/policies dictated.

That government almost certainly would have fallen by now but at least the LibDems would have had real power over the Tories - "You drop/change policy X, or we vote against you and make you government fall" - but they got greedy, mistook Cleggmania for a long-term phenomenon and tied their horse to the Tory cart.

Now all they can do is to try to come the hard man with the Tories and hope the Tories will knuckle under. The fault with that line of thinking is that the Tories know full well that even if they get a hammering at the next general election, they'll be back in power one day. The same most definitely can't be said for the LibDems, so when push comes to shove, the Tories will simply take a general election defeat on the chin, leaving the LibDems forever on the margins in future.

If, by some miracle/disaster, the Tories manage to get enough seats to form their own government next time, are the LibDems naive enough to think they'll be invited to form part of that government? They couldn't be that stupid, could they?

Much as I loathe the Tories, you've got to admire the way they've let the LibDems take the front seat this last year and thus all the flak, a very, very slick bit of work indeed. Cable says they are ruthless, calculating and very tribal. Errm, didn't the LibDems know that before they got into bed with them, or are they completely delusional to think that "Tories" and "being reasonable" was ever going to happen?

It would all be funny, were it not for the state this country is going to be in by the time the current Tory government has finished with it. Gawd help us all!


Actually looking at the figure for Thursday's vote the libdems didn't do anywhere near as badly as some predicted. They polled 16% of the vote which is way up on the polls. Of course they lost council seats because they had taken so many off Labour and the Tories over the last couple of council elections, and went into the election with more councillors than Labour. I suspect that Clegg will now get his head down and concentrate on repairing the ship. He has 4 years to do it.