After hearing someone having a discussion about alcoholism he was saying it was a disease / illness when the other person refused to accept this and said it wasent.. its an addiction and it's their own fault.

Now im not saying it can't destroy families and such..but i think this just makes the person involved more selfish for continuing their ways.

thoughts?

I think that it's fairly universally accepted that the alcohol isn't the real problem- it's a symptom of a problem (although it may cause enormous physical damage that can compound the issues).

The real problem is working out for each individual why they feel the need to anaesthetise themselves with drink. If you don't work that out then you are left with the only cure being to say 'don't drink', which is much easier said than done to someone with alcoholic tendencies. It's exactly the same as with anorexia/bulimia. The food control issues are merely a symptom of a really big pile of stuff that needs to be gone through, and saying 'eat your food nicely' won't solve anything.

I feel that the long term research currently underway looking at alcoholism between generations will produce interesting results relating to the genetic differences between problem drinkers and those able to control drinking better. It will be interesting to see if genetic differences can be found, or if the 'nature or nurture' argument comes down on the side of alcohol abuse being a learned behaviour from generation to generation.

Alcholism runs in families.

A bit like cancer, heart disease and other inherited problems.

It destroys friendships too.

I have an ex mate who sups too much, not an alco - yet.

Becomes irrational & nasty when tanked up.

In the case of George Best, he knew he would have the problem as his mother also died of it. He even had tablets inserted into his stomach as a young man to help prevent alcoholism.
His very public battle with the addiction shows how hard he did try to overcome it.

I know of a Christian woman who managed to overcome her alcoholism and did not take the wine at the communion service.
One day she did take the wine thinking she had recovered and with that one sip descended into alcoholism again.
For many people it really is an illness...not to be confused with merely heavy drinking. Also a problem with similar results.

Originally posted by Floe
I know of a Christian woman who managed to overcome her alcoholism and did not take the wine at the communion service.
One day she did take the wine thinking she had recovered and with that one sip descended into alcoholism again.
For many people it really is an illness...not to be confused with merely heavy drinking. Also a problem with similar results.
A real shame in this woman's case. She evidently didn't realise that you never recover from alcoholism. This is why one who has come to the realisation that they are powerless over alcohol and given up is called a recovering alcoholic.

I know a devout Catholic (close relative) who takes the wine at Communion, but no other alcohol whatsoever, and he's been ok doing this for 10 years. When I challenged him on it, he replied "It's not wine, it's the Sacred Blood". I guess it's the Catholic belief in transubstantiation - if he genuinely believes that this is not an alcoholic beverage, but instead the blood of Jesus, then he can still know that he cannot ever start drinking again.

I think personally there are different types of alcoholic. One uses alcohol to obliterate their problems and one that has an alcohol addiction.

The genetic tendencies havent been proven yet, it is considered by my doctor as partially a genetic problem and partly a learned behaviour. But the thing about alcoholism is that even if a person has alcoholism in their family the denial is a major part in it, so just telling someone they have a problem is not enough, they have to realise it themselves.

I have family problems with alcoholism and it is the most insidious addiction there is IMO. You can do it anywhere now, the pubs are open 24hrs, the off licenses have no limits to how much you can buy. Almost every celebration has some involvement with alcohol.

Christmas staff nights out. Christmas day. New years day. Weddings. Christenings. Most socialising really, when people go out after work where do they tend to go? The pub.Its absolutely everywhere and for someone to resist the constant bombardment is amazing. I know someone who has been dry for 15 years now, and she says its as difficult today to not drink as it was the first day, but she does it for her children and grandchildren, I admire her immensely.

It isn't just a case of 'stopping' the withdrawal from alcohol, depending on the severity of the addiction it can be life threatening. It can cause fits so people need to go into rehab to dry out.

The psychological side also plays a big part. I had a family member who went into rehab. He went in not for himself but for everyone else, and was drinking again within a year because he hadnt stopped for himself. An alcoholic has to hit rick bottom before they can climb back up again, for some that takes longer than others. Its like a vicious circle, they hate themselves because they drink, plus drink is a depressant, so they end up drinking more.

alcohol good slave bad master

i see it with errrrm double vision and the room spinning

sorry to be bit heartless (mother in law is alcohol dependent so i know what i'm on about).
no one is born an alcoholic, they make themselves into one.
if they had said no in the first place then they wouldn't be in their particular predicament.

Originally posted by willman
sorry to be bit heartless (mother in law is alcohol dependent so i know what i'm on about).
no one is born an alcoholic, they make themselves into one.
if they had said no in the first place then they wouldn't be in their particular predicament.

yes you drink, so therefore you turn yourself into an alky
BUT
certain people are addicted to certain things and not others

i for one am a stickler for wed and booze, never really been into the speed, lsd etc

a mate on the other hand may prefer smack or uppers

dont you think thats something in your genes that makes you prefer / get addicted to something over something else?

Originally posted by willman
sorry to be bit heartless (mother in law is alcohol dependent so i know what i'm on about).
no one is born an alcoholic, they make themselves into one.
if they had said no in the first place then they wouldn't be in their particular predicament.
Surely that depends on how soon the dependency begins? If you go out for a few drinks with the lads every weekend when you're in your late teens and get hooked, how can it be said that it's your fault?

I get reverse drunken-ness, the beer doesn't go to my head, it goes to my bladder, so I'm up and down like a yo yo to the loo all night consequently not getting any sleep :(

Originally posted by RichD
If you go out for a few drinks with the lads every weekend when you're in your late teens and get hooked, how can it be said that it's your fault?
what if you go out with the lads when your in your late teens and kill someone?... its still your fault.. you have choices.

Originally posted by RichD
Surely that depends on how soon the dependency begins? If you go out for a few drinks with the lads every weekend when you're in your late teens and get hooked, how can it be said that it's your fault?

if you dont drink too much you wont get dependent.
who's fault is it , if it isn't your own.

Originally posted by willman
sorry to be bit heartless (mother in law is alcohol dependent so i know what i'm on about).
no one is born an alcoholic, they make themselves into one.
if they had said no in the first place then they wouldn't be in their particular predicament.

Sorry but I don't understand that. How is anyone supposed to know they might become an alcoholic ? Most people who in their youth drink socially, and even excessively, don't become alcoholics. Many alcoholics don't realise, or admit they have a problem until it's too late.

Hopefully if it is established that there is a hereditary predisposition to alcoholism then those at risk will have good reason to say no in the first place.

Are you a 'Pioneer' by any chance ? ;)

I'm 26 and I've been teetotal for 7 years. I used to drink when I was a teenager but I was never a huge fan of it, and I gave it up when I first started uni in 1998.

As someone who doesn't drink, the entire attitude of society towards alcohol seems to be truly bizarre. It seems to me that no-one ever takes a step back and wonders WHY they drink. When people enter their teenage years, no-one ever seems to assess the pros and cons of alcohol, then make a conscious decision on whether or not they should do it. People just start drinking because it's the "done thing". They do it because their parents do it. They do it because their peers do it. They do it because society does it.

Although I'm teetotal, I still sometimes go to pubs and clubs for nights out with mates. Whenever I meet new people and tell them that I don't drink, the reaction is universally one of complete bewilderment. People tend to look at me like I've just told them I'm really an alien.

"What, you don't drink?"
"No"
"What, ever?"
"Never"
"Woah! Going out with alcohol. I couldn't do that"

It's like the concept of not drinking alcohol is so outlandish to them that they've never even considered it. Alcohol is such a fixture in modern society that it's accepted unquestioningly by everyone. It's no wonder there are so many alcoholics. :(

Originally posted by Greybeard
Sorry but I don't understand that. How is anyone supposed to know they might become an alcoholic ? Most people who in their youth drink socially, and even excessively, don't become alcoholics. Many alcoholics don't realise, or admit they have a problem until it's too late.

Hopefully if it is established that there is a hereditary predisposition to alcoholism then those at risk will have good reason to say no in the first place.

Are you a 'Pioneer' by any chance ? ;)

whats a pioneer?

does ones own intelligence not tell a person that they're ******?
surely anyone who has to have a drink needs to do something about they're problem.however not drinking to excess in the first place might help.

Originally posted by Daley
I still sometimes go to pubs and clubs for nights out with mates. Whenever I meet new people and tell them that I don't drink, the reaction is universally one of complete bewilderment. People tend to look at me like I've just told them I'm really an alien.

"What, you don't drink?"
"No"
"What, ever?"
"Never"
"Woah! Going out with alcohol. I couldn't do that"

It's like the concept of not drinking alcohol is so outlandish to them that they've never even considered it. Alcohol is such a fixture in modern society that it's accepted unquestioningly by everyone. It's no wonder there are so many alcoholics. :(
i get that as well... makes you feel like your doing something wrong coz your not downing pints like everyone else.. ah well good job i dont bow down to peer pressure :thumbsup: or i might of been a alcholic

Tis strange isn't it.. I've been teetotal for 2+ years and it does surprise people. The amount that people drink is just ridiculous too, everyone has a 'funny' story about their mate that drank so much he/she threw up their stomach lining or had to go to hospital or something. People are really damaging themselves just on the basis that 'everyone does it'.

Not to mention the cost :)

Best out of it I think.

Originally posted by willman
whats a pioneer?

does ones own intelligence not tell a person that they're ******?
surely anyone who has to have a drink needs to do something about they're problem.however not drinking to excess in the first place might help.
Well that's where we'll have to disagree. It's cetainly the case with SOME alcoholics, but I do believe that others are predisposed to it and can get hooked before they know what's hit them. It's my belief that it IS possible for someone to be an alcoholic when they take their very first drink. Others, like you say, bring it on themselves.

I am also teetotal haiiing seen the results of alcohol on family life.
The thing that gets me is when people try to do you a favour and buy you a " real" drink.

hazel

Originally posted by hazel
I am also teetotal haiiing seen the results of alcohol on family life.
The thing that gets me is when people try to do you a favour and buy you a " real" drink.

hazel
Yeah, that's the stupidest thing... that some people have difficulty accepting that there are others who never touch alcohol.

There's alcoholism in my family, but I haven't stopped drinking. I am glad however that I have no desire or compulsion to get bladdered at any given time. I have an average of 50 units of alcohol a year. I very often go out with no intention of drinking, and even bring my car just to make sure. Others find it a little easier to accept that you can't drink, rather than won't. Sad, innit? :)

alcoholism is a recognised mental illness, so unless some of you know better than the doctors who've decided that it would probably be better for you to just accept it.

Originally posted by Cyclone
alcoholism is a recognised mental illness, so unless some of you know better than the doctors who've decided that it would probably be better for you to just accept it.

lots of things are recognised as such but we still debate them on the forum, doesnt make alcoholism right.

my only query on this is , how do you become an alcoholic.?
do you have the illness before you over indulge & become addicted or after when you cant accept its a problem & dont want to stop.?

Originally posted by melthebell
yes you drink, so therefore you turn yourself into an alky
BUT
certain people are addicted to certain things and not others

i for one am a stickler for wed and booze, never really been into the speed, lsd etc

a mate on the other hand may prefer smack or uppers

dont you think thats something in your genes that makes you prefer / get addicted to something over something else?

....this argument doesn't hold, its like saying peadefiles are attracted to children, its not their fault they just are.......everyone has the ability to do whats right, and strength of mind is what is needed

Alcoholism.........how do you see it?



with dificulty its usually blurry;)

Can I ask how many of those commenting on this thread and others irt alcoholism have any personal experience of it - The absolute damage it does to not only the alcoholic themselves but also their family and friends?

Having turned off the life support machine on my mother at the age of 18 (due to alcoholism) and after 10years of living with her as an abusive alcoholic, I can say that it is a disease, it is a physical and psychological addiction that effects ALL concerned.

I have said this before but if anyone wants to discuss issues re. alcoholism with me, please pm me.

x

Alcoholism is a disorder with a physiological basis, I can't remember the exact details as the lecture which covered it was two years ago, but it's something to do with neurotransmitter receptors in the brain altering shape to become accustomed to alcohol so that the original neurotransmitter functions less effectively and alcohol is needed to stimulate certain areas... or something. Go look up the details if anyone's really bothered.

But, this only happens with repeated use and to be honest, it's possible to override more or less anything like that with enough self control and will anyway. Hard maybe but not impossible given sufficient motivation.

The neuroscience lecture that covered the affects of alcohol was actually one of the things which made me stop drinking initally - maybe educating more people as to what it actually does would help. but probably not

Originally posted by willman
lots of things are recognised as such but we still debate them on the forum, doesnt make alcoholism right.

my only query on this is , how do you become an alcoholic.?
do you have the illness before you over indulge & become addicted or after when you cant accept its a problem & dont want to stop.?

was anyone arguing that alcoholism was right?

You may as well argue that a cold isn't really a disease. It makes no sense.

Clearly you don't have the disease before you start drinking (to excess). It's diagnosis is a bit vague, as the specific symptoms vary, but persistent alcohol abuse would cover it. Then you can argue about what abuse is, and how often/regular something has to be to be persistant.

Originally posted by Crayfish
...But, this only happens with repeated use and to be honest, it's possible to override more or less anything like that with enough self control and will anyway. Hard maybe but not impossible given sufficient motivation...
That's the trouble though - most alcoholics have incredibly high willpower. They become convinced that they CAN master it, that they CAN go and have a couple of drinks without it affecting them the same way as usual, that tomorrow will be different. It takes them hitting rock bottom before they can realise that they are totally powerless over alcohol. Where exactly rock bottom is differs from one alcoholic to another, and some, regrettably, never reach it.

The analogy I have been told of the belief that you can overcome it and drink sensibly, is:

Imagine dropping an egg from head height. It falls, hits the ground, and cracks open. The alcoholic brain would believe that if they drop another egg, there could be a different outcome. Somehow, the egg will not fall, or will not smash when it hits the ground. The sheer willpower of the alcoholic prompts them to keep dropping eggs, because they're certain they'll be able to drop them without breaking them. Until they eventually realise that with the best will in the world, they simply cannot drop an egg and expect it not to break. They have got to stop dropping eggs.

Originally posted by Cyclone
was anyone arguing that alcoholism was right?

You may as well argue that a cold isn't really a disease. It makes no sense.

Clearly you don't have the disease before you start drinking (to excess). It's diagnosis is a bit vague, as the specific symptoms vary, but persistent alcohol abuse would cover it. Then you can argue about what abuse is, and how often/regular something has to be to be persistant.

And dependency on alcohol is not necessarily a dependence on a large amount. The large amounts kill you.

Most dependents just cannot go a weekend without drinking something, and many will not even realise they are dependent.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
And dependency on alcohol is not necessarily a dependence on a large amount. The large amounts kill you.

Most dependents just cannot go a weekend without drinking something, and many will not even realise they are dependent.
True. Although a number of people who are dependent on alcohol may simply have a 'drinking problem' rather than being an alcoholic. These are the type who can dry out and then return to responsible drinking after a while. An alcoholic can never drink again.

my mother in law cannot go a day without a drink,were probably talking 3 litre bottles of spirits usually vodka per week minimum.
so is she an alco or drink dependent?
she apparently doesn't have a drink problem but most of us have more or less disowned her because of it.

so if she knows she feels like a drink why can she not just say no & put the kettle on.obviously its easyfor me to say, well dont have a drink,which is probably why i dont have much symapthy with alcoholics.

Willman your mother in law has probably now reached the stage where she physically needs the alcohol, especially if that is the amount she is drinking. Its not as simple as just stopping when it reaches that point. In your opinion for you to say no to a drink would be simple, but an alcoholic has an addiction. Some smokers need nicotine patches to stop and no-one questions how addictive cigarettes are, they just accept that they are. Why can you not understand that she cant just stop? Its so easy to judge alcoholics.

Both my parents were/are alcoholics, so I do have first hand experience of the destruction it can cause within a family. My mum has been dry 15 years and she did need help to stop. She still has to go to AA meetings now to help deal with it. I bet she wishes she could have just stopped before she nearly had me and my brother taken from her as children.

My dad developed a problem when I was in my twenties, dried out, but started drinking again just before getting into his car drunk and killing himself. He knew from my mother how drink can cause problems but it didnt help. My dad hated himself for what he had become and deserved sympathy, not people telling him it was all his own fault and if he's just not gone to the pub he'd have been ok.

Originally posted by willman
my mother in law cannot go a day without a drink,were probably talking 3 litre bottles of spirits usually vodka per week minimum.
so is she an alco or drink dependent?
she apparently doesn't have a drink problem but most of us have more or less disowned her because of it.

so if she knows she feels like a drink why can she not just say no & put the kettle on.obviously its easyfor me to say, well dont have a drink,which is probably why i dont have much symapthy with alcoholics.
I'd hazard a guess that yes, she is an alcoholic. I imagine the reason she can't just say no is because she is convinced that she is choosing not to. In a way it's a lot like some smokers, or other drug users - "I could give up if I wanted to. But I don't have a problem so I don't want to stop."

I feel for you mate, I know what it's like to live with an alcoholic (my dad) and how nothing you say will sink in. Thankfully my dad has been sober 12 years now. And I'm confident he'll never drink again. But it's important to know that he is still an alcoholic - the fact that he doesn't drink anymore doesn't mean he's cured. It means he's admitted it to himself, and learned to live differently.

Originally posted by willman
so if she knows she feels like a drink why can she not just say no & put the kettle on.obviously its easyfor me to say, well dont have a drink,which is probably why i dont have much symapthy with alcoholics.

Simple, she's addicted to the alcohol.

When I was at Uni I went to see a chick flick with a friend "When a man loves a woman", where Meg Ryan is an alco. I had known this friend for a couple of years, we had studied together etc and started uni together. I knew she had problems and ill health, but was surprised that after the film she revealed to me she was a recovering alcoholic and darent have a drink because it would start her back on the booze. She went to meetings and found them very valuable.

What was strange was, she was friends with quite a few other people at uni and it gradually became apparent to me that she knew them through AA. I had to then interact with these other people knowing that I knew they were alcos but they didnt know I knew. Strange but I got used to it. Trouble is every time she introduced me to someone I used to think "are they one?".

She met a bloke through AA who was supposedly sober for many years, they got hitched, he abused her, she lost everything and started drinking again. Fortunately, she met another bloke, through Al anon, who was there because of a family member, she got together with him and all seemed well, but we lost touch.

She was in her 40s and had difficulties with relationships all her life, and blamed her father, who she said had a drink problem. I hope wherever she is she is OK, and happy, but I doubt it somehow.

My opinion on Alcoholism: its a terrible thing, blights so many lives, and if you have it you will always have it, whether "recovering" or not.