Is there a point of having 2 different universities?

What are the advantages of merging and not merging?

no they shouldnt merge

it will kill the competition in sheffield and loads of people will lose out on going to uni and loads of jobs lost! and it will be harder to score points (1 student run over = 1 point) :D

he he

No, the 2 unis are very different in their style of teaching. Hallam tends to do more practical, vocational courses whereas Uni does more theoretical and academic stuff. Both are equally valid but attract different people.

It would be a shame to lose this diversity by merging them.

That's like saying we should merge Wednesday and United....

I don't know much about the Uni's here - but I have picked up that like everywhere else there's an attitude thing going on there - so I can't see it happening.

i dont see why it cant be one bit uni offering many different types of courses for many different types of people. It would also be good if it was a 1 campus uni instead of being buidings here there and everywhere which is a bit of a pain in the rear end. Where would thy build such a thing though? is there any room in sheffield?

Like many things, merging would probably mean less choice as smaller departments / subjects would be swallowed by bigger more profitable one... so a merger would be a bad idea.

Would there be any benefits in doing this?

i dont think its a good idea either, having two unis offers variety and extra facilities. the only benefits i can see are financial, although there would be less grants and fees due to less students, i suppose the students that would remain would get more facilities though

It's true (but not politically correct) that if you compare two departments of the same discipline at both, there is a marked difference in quality. Sheffield Uni has better students and world-class research. Hallam is an old polytechnic and does get less-able students.

My gut feeling is that merging would just bring Sheffield Uni down.

Originally posted by garrence
It's true (but not politically correct) that if you compare two departments of the same discipline at both, there is a marked difference in quality. Sheffield Uni has better students and world-class research. Hallam is an old polytechnic and does get less-able students.

I'd be interested in seeing your source for this truism.

There would be no competition in the city, so no way.

Although they may not compete directly, they must compete on some courses, and definately on geography.

Competition is not good for research. Sharing of knowledge is good, and what always used to happen.

For teaching, is there much competition between the two? They are in different leagues. I'd have thought Sheffield Uni is more concerned about it's government inspector's ratings, and about competing with Leeds Uni, Nottingham Uni etc, than about competing with Hallam.

Originally posted by max
I'd be interested in seeing your source for this truism.

Research quality is assessed in the four-yearly Research Assessment Excercise. Results at
http://www.hero.ac.uk/rae/Results/

Academic departmental quality is judged by the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education.
http://www.qaa.ac.uk/

Student quality can be seen from the differences in entry requirements.

Originally posted by garrence
It's true (but not politically correct) that if you compare two departments of the same discipline at both, there is a marked difference in quality. Sheffield Uni has better students and world-class research. Hallam is an old polytechnic and does get less-able students.

My gut feeling is that merging would just bring Sheffield Uni down.


Less able? I am in my final year at Hallam and have A levels of AAAB. I just preferred the idea of doing a more relevant course rather than the more academic alternative due mainly to future employment prospects. I'd like to hear what A levels you achieved?

I had the same A-Level results as yourself. I was in the top 5 people in the country for one of the A's (they don't tell you exactly where because the results would be so close). I don't know why that's of interest to you though - I did my undergrad at one of the three great universities (Hull). (Blackadder IV)

People on a course with lower entry requirements will generally be less able than people on a course with higher entry requirements. There will always be individual exceptions.

I think an outright merger would benefit neither institution. Sheffield has many departments performing world-class research, Hallam has none [1]. Hallam has an excellent reputation for innovative teaching and is doing some really good stuff in distance/electronic learning.

To bring this thread back on topic, here's one for the discussion. Could Sheffield be made the "City of research and learning"? The decent academics from Hallam move over to Sheffield with the aim of increasing its number of 5/5* departments. Several people have already said that Sheffield is more academic, so what if it plays to this, reduces student numbers a little, maybe gives some courses to Hallam and tries to get a reputation of being a little elitist. I don't like elitism either, but such a reputation would encourage cutting edge companies into Sheffield. Hallam meanwhile cultivates a reputation of "if you hire someone who studied at Hallam they they've got what they need for the job".

I'm not advocating this because I haven't thought it through. There may be a way in which that can work, maybe not. I suspect that the instant judgment of the message board will mean that it gets shot down in flames though :P

[1] RAE 2001

I'm not arguing that, overall, the quality of students is better at Sheffield. Just realise that some people go to Hallam through choice and not just because nowhere else would take them with their D in A Level Sports Studies. Some have very good A Level results but prefer a direct career path degree. With regards to the merging; no, I don't think they should merge.

Originally posted by t020
Less able? I am in my final year at Hallam and have A levels of AAAB. I just preferred the idea of doing a more relevant course rather than the more academic alternative due mainly to future employment prospects. I'd like to hear what A levels you achieved?

Same here, got the same a-level grades too! and got accepted by so called 'good unis' but still chose hallam which has a 100% graduate employment rate for my course.

Its not fair to generalise that hallam has less able students cos that just isnt true.

Originally posted by t020
but prefer a direct career path degree.

For instance me! I want to be able to come out of uni with more than just a degree, but with some certifications as well, I dont think Sheffield offers such training? (or does it?)

Certifications as in Redhat Certified Engineer etc? Having done a comp sci degree, I don't think there wouldn't be time in the syllabus, tho' it wouldn't hurt to ask the department. Most general Comp Sci courses give you broad grounding in the discipline but cannot teach you a particular skill in depth. They have to cover software design principles, diagramming paradigms, functional languages, object oriented languages, logical languages, formal specification, some hardware, networks, legal issues, etc etc.

You might prefer to do, say, software engineering instead of comp sci, as this would miss out bits of theory and cover more software design and programming.

What kinda job do you want?

Originally posted by garrence

To bring this thread back on topic, here's one for the discussion. Could Sheffield be made the "City of research and learning"? The decent academics from Hallam move over to Sheffield with the aim of increasing its number of 5/5* departments. Several people have already said that Sheffield is more academic, so what if it plays to this, reduces student numbers a little, maybe gives some courses to Hallam and tries to get a reputation of being a little elitist. I don't like elitism either, but such a reputation would encourage cutting edge companies into Sheffield. Hallam meanwhile cultivates a reputation of "if you hire someone who studied at Hallam they they've got what they need for the job".[1] RAE 2001

I think that's pretty much how it is now, and it is only going to improve. We should be very proud of our universities, because they (along with the hospitals) are pretty much the only well paid major industry in the city. Sheffield would be lost without them and their students. As time progresses that will spin off and help the city develop new businesses and industry needs and support professions.

yeh i think the unis are both really good for the city of sheffield. I am from london myself where the universities aren't major players because there is so much other business. I think the universities in sheffield do some really good work for the city of sheffield, as well as employing loads of people. My department (town planning) employs researchers as well as lecturers who work with businesses and sheffield city council to improve sheffield. for example, at the moment we are doing research into the norfolk park scheme to try and improve it, the uni doesn't need to do that, but its live projects like this that should make people in sheffield appreciate the status of the two seperate universities.

How on earth can a Uni merge with a former Poly?????? Let's get real. They are two totally different institutions. I have to say, aswell, that after listening to my Ma (who works at Sheff Hall) DESPAIR (and this is a woman who loves her students!) at the calibre, or lack thereof, of the students who pass through her department, then I do not see how this can be possible. Some of her students appear to be dragged in for the funding. I went to a former Poly myself so I am not some university undergraduate wanting to see a divide between Poly and Uni students, but really, the two are in a different league!

Surely if your degree is acreditted by a recognised institution, B.Eng (Hons) for example, then it must up to the required level.

Don't think it is...hence the competition to get in to these Universities in the first place. Do you really think that an Oxford degree is the same as a Hatfield Poly. Oh no. There are still some differences.

Originally posted by Babooshka
Do you really think that an Oxford degree is the same as a Hatfield Poly. Oh no. There are still some differences.

Okay I agree that different unis have different reputations. Sheffield's is much better than Hallam's. However there is a minimum standard for an honours degree.

I must say bab, that though some courses may be easy to get on to, not all are. As hal said with the acreditted degrees at hallam (BEng electrical engineering BEng Mechanical Engineering as examples), do require a high level to be admitted onto. I can only really comment on my experience, but I haven't found any students on my course sub standard. It's a hard degree, and all of my fellow class mates are quite capable at this level. As i've already said a few times now, it depends entirely on the course. I accept that shefield require a higher standard for their courses, but there are a lot of courses at hallam that are more appealing for specific professions.

Originally posted by Babooshka
Don't think it is...hence the competition to get in to these Universities in the first place. Do you really think that an Oxford degree is the same as a Hatfield Poly. Oh no. There are still some differences.

I have to agree. I went to The University of Sheffield and did my degree in a renowned department with renowned professors in the field. Hallam university also offers the same degree course, however it doesn't have the same level of research or renowned professors, although it does offer a year out which is good. When I went for a job and they knew that I had studied at the university, they knew the reputation straight away and that I had been taught by the best in the field. I got the job. So no matter what people say (and I actually think Hallam is a good uni), the old poly's still have a stigma with certain degree courses and the original uni's are known to be good. I think Hallam has a really good reputation which is great. It will take time for a lot of the old poly's to build these reputations. At the end of the day, if you have a PhD or are a prof. and are renowned in your field, you are more likely to get a job teaching at a university not an ex poly. Call this snobbery but this is what happens. Therefore the standard of the degree's are generally better from a old style university than an ex poly. There is history behind the institution.

I don't think they should merge at all. I also think there are too many uni's around now anyway and too many people going to them. There should be more emphasis on technical colleges and vocational training which isn't a 'degree', and leave uni degree's to the academic side of things as it used to be. Degree's are becoming two a penny now, hence why the government can't afford to fund it. What happened to people leaving school and getting a job e.g. in a bank and working their way up to the top sitting exams on the way? These days you need a degree to be taken on to do this. So many of my parents generation did well for themselves and didn't go to uni.
People leave uni now thinking they deserve a good well paid job, but there are too many graduates around so they aren't gonna get that job and companies aren't offering these big wages, they could have taken a school leaver and trained them after all. Why is everyone so intent on being 'equal', we should just accept we are not and get on with it.
Ex-poly's as a general rule except lower grades for you to get in. Universities still require high grades. For ex-poly's to function they need to fill seats to get the funding.

I think it depends on the course at Hallam, as to the entry requirements, as I needed a Distinction in my GNVQ to get on my course. I'm not sure if that was to the popularity of the course or the standard of work?

EXACTLY FOXX. ANYONE can get a degree now. So long as you are offering the cash! A merger would render the original University degree almost worthless. Face it. We do, to some extent, need an elite in society. It is how progress is made. It should not just be a means to delay finding employment. It used to mean something. I am not saying that Ex-Poly courses are a doss. But Poly students didn't get in to Uni for one of two reasons a) the course at the Poly suited them better b) there were not enough places (places being allocated to higher grade achievers). You NEED that distinction in society.

I know for a fact that some of this stuff you are writing about Hallam being worse than Sheff uni is a load of ****. Hallam offers a lot of different courses to Sheff uni for starters which is one of the reasons many people choose there over Sheff uni. For example, I study Sport and Exercise Science at Hallam which is not offered at Sheff Uni plus Hallam have better assessment marks for this course now than Loughborough which has been renowned for years for being the best sports university in the country! I had the opportunity to go to Loughborough but turned it down for Hallam for reasons such as the course was better for me and I preferred Sheffield to Loughborough. That just shows that people don't just go to Hallam cos they get **** grades. That is definately one of the problems with most Shef uni students I've met (not all I might add!!) they think they are so much better than Hallam students when that is not the case at all.

Fonteyn, I think you are missing the point. No one is saying that Sheffield Uni is better than Sheffield Hallam. We are saying that the two institutions (University and Poly) ARE and SHOULD be different. They DO offer different kinds of courses. That is the whole point. Historically speaking! Polys offer a different kind of course to Unis (mostly). Universities are, traditionally, more academic, whereas Polys were rather more vocational. It depends what you want out of a course as to where you study. I chose a Poly for my course as opposed to a Uni for that very reason. We are not saying that they have second rate courses. The competition to get in to any institution these days is SOOOOO high because everyone wants to go. They only have limited places and so the institutions have to accept the students who have the highest grades to make it fair. The vast majority will apply to a Uni and so those with the highest grades will go (along with other assets). The difference between the grades can be so minimal. Most Uni students do not think that they are better than Poly students either. That is sordid misconception in the minds of SOME Poly students. In the old OLD days when the Unis were so very elitest then this would have been the case, but not any more. Different courses suit different people. However, there IS a difference between the two (a Uni and a Poly) and it is fair to say that! To deny it is ignorance. You have to admit though that some courses are a joke and shouldn't even BE courses! AND you can not deny that the standard of SOME students is appalling and they should not even be there. I know so many lecturers and lI isten to their endless whinging about disinterested students who ADMIT to being there just for the doss. What is the point in teaching people like this? It is Higher education. And by the way 'definately' is actually spelt 'definitely'.

Originally posted by garrence
Certifications as in Redhat Certified Engineer etc?
---
You might prefer to do, say, software engineering instead of comp sci, as this would miss out bits of theory and cover more software design and programming.

What kinda job do you want?

I was thinking more Cisco Networking Certifcation,

Ive opted for Computing because I really dont know what I want to do in the field of computing, im the sort of person who knows a fair amount on several areas as opposed to specialising in one area, its my plan to find out what im best at then to further go on to study more in that area :thumbsup:

Jobwise, as above I just dont know what im good at yet :)

For instance, while im good at say software engineering (being one of only a few people in my college to complete the programming task out of over 70) I just dont like it that much :lol:

Yes, to say there isn't a difference would be ignorance, although you can't say there isn't snobbery from Sheff Uni towards Hallam. I did some research at Sheff Uni a month ago, and many came across as feeling they were better people because they went to that university!

Originally posted by Babooshka
How on earth can a Uni merge with a former Poly?????? Let's get real. They are two totally different institutions. I have to say, aswell, that after listening to my Ma (who works at Sheff Hall) DESPAIR (and this is a woman who loves her students!) at the calibre, or lack thereof, of the students who pass through her department, then I do not see how this can be possible. Some of her students appear to be dragged in for the funding. I went to a former Poly myself so I am not some university undergraduate wanting to see a divide between Poly and Uni students, but really, the two are in a different league!


hmmmm, if you check the university tables you will find that hallam uni is way above sheffield uni in the league!

you have two different types of intelligence; practical and academic. oh and emotoinal. but thats not relevant here. Hallam caters for practical students more than the uni does, but the uni caters for the academic better. you dont need academic understanding to succeed in media studies, but you do for the understanding of metaphysics. im sure there's academics who cant do catering and design courses. its just the way people think. i'm at the uni by the way. But academic research has a certain amount of prestige, its centred around a better understanding of the world we live in. practical courses get you better jobs and... newer cars. maybe a garage as well. go get them tiger.

Originally posted by Babooshka
We are saying that the two institutions (University and Poly) ARE and SHOULD be different.
However, there IS a difference between the two (a Uni and a Poly) and it is fair to say that! To deny it is ignorance.

Why are you refering to and comparing Hallam Uni as a Poly, this is in the past. Like it or not Hallam is a University, and has been since the early nineties, times have changed and things have moved on.....

Originally posted by Babooshka
I know so many lecturers and I isten to their endless whinging about disinterested students who ADMIT to being there just for the doss. What is the point in teaching people like this?

During my time as a student at Hallam I dont recall any students just there to doss, even more so with students having to pay their own fees or being sponsored by companies.

Originally posted by mega_monty
During my time as a student at Hallam I dont recall any students just there to doss, even more so with students having to pay their own fees or being sponsored by companies.
Trust me, there's plenty there. Most of them don't make it past the first year though.

Originally posted by pia03asc
you have two different types of intelligence; practical and academic. oh and emotoinal. but thats not relevant here. Hallam caters for practical students more than the uni does, but the uni caters for the academic better. you dont need academic understanding to succeed in media studies, but you do for the understanding of metaphysics. im sure there's academics who cant do catering and design courses. its just the way people think. i'm at the uni by the way. But academic research has a certain amount of prestige, its centred around a better understanding of the world we live in. practical courses get you better jobs and... newer cars. maybe a garage as well. go get them tiger.

Actually my media studies course is more academic than practical, and it is at Hallam. But yeah, I think if it was taught at Sheff Uni, it probably would be ALL theory.

Should the two Sheffield universities merge? No not really. Am a Hallam student and i'm not one for all this 'us and them' crap but i have to say that the 'Uni of' students instigate this.

Sheffield Uni is living in the past and disillusioning itself by doing so.
The new 'in take' that arrive at Sheffield Uni every year are big suckers for this. They've been in Uni 5 minutes and associate themselves with the university's past successes, and i think, "hold on a minute, you haven't been a part of this at all". Thats what annoys me, their like bloody glory supporters in football.

I know a few people at Sheff University, for example a friend from my old school studying medicine another studies genetics and my ex studies linguistics, and have to say there not the most interlectual bunch. There so gulliable and not really wise about much, they seem sheltered.

"Sheffield Uni has better students and world-class research. Hallam is an old polytechnic and does get less-able students.

My gut feeling is that merging would just bring Sheffield Uni down" erm no, not really.

Hallam students are as intelligent as Uni of and are at an advantage as we're more wise to the world.

Sheff Uni Students More Intelligent Than Hallam Student your having a joke. I gained 3b's and a c which would have easily gained me entrance to that poxy shandy drinking university. However decided to opt for a course which would allow me to have a work placement year so i could gain experience which will impress employers more than a two bob degree at some red brick uni

As For a Merger Behave.

"When i was a little boy i asked my mother what should i be.. Shall i be hallam shall i be uni heres what she said to me......
Wash your mouth out son and get your fathers gun... Go Shoot The Uni Scum... La La La La La"

I would refute all those points but you did a good enough job of destroying your own argument...

Originally posted by Gilly
Sheff Uni Students More Intelligent Than Hallam Student your having a joke.

Capitalization? Use of apostrophes? Or do only "red brick uni's" offering "two bob degree"s bother teaching grammar?

Originally posted by Gilly
I gained 3b's and a c which would have easily gained me entrance to that poxy shandy drinking university.

Really? Doing what? Cleaning the toilets?! I wouldn't brag about those grades if I were you, you'll only embarrass yourself.

Originally posted by Gilly
"When i was a little boy i asked my mother what should i be.. Shall i be hallam shall i be uni heres what she said to me......
Wash your mouth out son and get your fathers gun... Go Shoot The Uni Scum... La La La La La" .

I'm not even going to waste my energy typing a response to that.

:loopy:

Originally posted by Gilly
Sheff Uni Students More Intelligent Than Hallam Student your having a joke. I gained 3b's and a c which would have easily gained me entrance to that poxy shandy drinking university. However decided to opt for a course which would allow me to have a work placement year so i could gain experience which will impress employers more than a two bob degree at some red brick uni

As For a Merger Behave.

"When i was a little boy i asked my mother what should i be.. Shall i be hallam shall i be uni heres what she said to me......
Wash your mouth out son and get your fathers gun... Go Shoot The Uni Scum... La La La La La"

Hey, it's that good old use of the word Scum again, in another new concept! That makes me scum so best you come and shoot me luv.

Fair enough you gained 3Bs and a C, out of interest how long a go did you do these A-levels??

Just to clarify, you wouldn't have got on my course since it requires 2 As and a B.

2 bob degree....LOL..!!! I think you're having a joke.

I've never drunk shandy in my life, not that it matters really. Does that mean that all Hallam students are big and clever and drink lots of hard core alcohol? Glad to see you spending your student loans wisely.

Originally posted by Foxxx
Does that mean that all Hallam students are big and clever and drink lots of hard core alcohol? Glad to see you spending your student loans wisely.
You'd better believe it.

How ****ing Typical i knew when i read through my message you would make a point of my poor grammar. But really couldnt be asked to edit it.

I gained my a levels in Business, Geography, IT and Economics last year although i have no idea why that matters (are you trying to say that they are getting easier so are now devalued)

As For Me not gaining the grades for your course well its a good job i didnt apply for it but the grades i achieved would easily have gained me acceptance to the equivalant course at Uni Of Sheffield.

Big and Clever I would like to think so

the grades i recieved meant i could have gone to sheff uni, but i went to hallam as the course was harder to get on to.

Originally posted by Gilly
.

Big and Clever I would like to think so

Yes it is big and clever to say things like

When i was a little boy i asked my mother what should i be.. Shall i be hallam shall i be uni heres what she said to me......
Wash your mouth out son and get your fathers gun... Go Shoot The Uni Scum... La La La La La"

Anyway, this argument seems to have become about Hallam not being a good uni. Most people have said that Hallam, as one of the ex-poly's has a good reputation and is a good uni and I agree with that. Most of the comments about needing lower grades and degree's not being worth as much as a traditional Uni were general comments about Uni Vs Ex-poly's. I still don't think there should be a merger though as stated, the two institutions are about different forms of learning and academia.

As for you getting ready to argue about A-levels not being easier, well I'm afraid they are. I'd like to see pupils of these days gaining their grades the old fashioned way by doing two years of work in exams and that's it. These day's it's all modular which imo is much easier to get higher grades in if you put the work in.
I wish I'd been able to do modular A-levels, my strong point is course work and exams at regular intervals. There was a lot of pressure in the old days to obtain high grades through exams and if you had a bad exam it didn't really reflect your capabilities and you could fail or get a low grade. This is where things are starting to change now, pupils can gain better grades and go to uni now, the old way of learning was far more academic and was a lot more about exam performance.

i really don't think the content of a levels has got easier, i just think the teaching has got better, and perhaps intelligence generally has risen (am not sure about that!).
Also, modular a levels may be considered easier, but what about pupils that do better at exams?
finally, my year was the first year to do the new AS level system and i know that all the pupils and teachers said it was ridiculous, the older teachers said they have never seen such a mess. There was a lot of confusion at my school over which syllabus to follow, key skills, timetabling and requirements. The fact that 4 subjects instead of 3 were taken in year 12 instantly made it harder due to an increase in workload.
Also, the myth that the a levels are easier now because it is modular in my opinion is rubbish as i took 24 exams throughout my 2 year as/a level courses and to count have taken 82 exams since starting school aged 3. My year (graduating at 16 in 2000) is the most examined year in british education to date.

I just think it's all pretty convenient from the government's point of view.

They wanted more people in higher education (for a variety of reasons) so what better way of doing this than making A-Levels easier? More students with more good grades then puts the emphasis on universities to create more spaces.

Makes good sense to me.

As for teaching getting better, I certainly haven't seen any evidence of this.

Oh, and more exams doesn't necessarily mean harder work. I've found all of the exams I've taken at Uni (about 10 per year) easier than the 6 (in two years) I took under the old A-Level system.

But that's probably another argument altogether...

Originally posted by HarrietStar
i really don't think the content of a levels has got easier, i just think the teaching has got better, and perhaps intelligence generally has risen (am not sure about that!).
Also, modular a levels may be considered easier, but what about pupils that do better at exams?
finally, my year was the first year to do the new AS level system and i know that all the pupils and teachers said it was ridiculous, the older teachers said they have never seen such a mess. There was a lot of confusion at my school over which syllabus to follow, key skills, timetabling and requirements. The fact that 4 subjects instead of 3 were taken in year 12 instantly made it harder due to an increase in workload.
Also, the myth that the a levels are easier now because it is modular in my opinion is rubbish as i took 24 exams throughout my 2 year as/a level courses and to count have taken 82 exams since starting school aged 3. My year (graduating at 16 in 2000) is the most examined year in british education to date.

But that is exactly my point. Modular exams are split up and in some courses you can retake the modules if the grade isn't high enough.
Old A-levels were 6ish long exams (for 3 Alevels) at the end of the two years, so you had to revise for a long time to retain all the information in one go and could get asked anything on the whole 2 years.
You lot who do modular do more exams, granted, but they are easier in comparison since you have less content to swat up on.
I found uni easier than A-levels in that respect.

Originally posted by Foxxx
some courses you can retake the modules if the grade isn't high enough.

Exactly. I bloody wish I took retake my Latin A-Level exams and get an A!

On second thoughts...

:D

Oops I'm a little late posting on this topic... But my opinion is that the 2 uni's shouldnt merge... I am planning on staying in sheffield and going to one of the two uni's... The other being my second, reserve choice ofcourse :)

Not sure which one yet, however I think it'll be the uni of sheffield as my aunt would never shut up if I went to hallam as she says it's not as good.... ahh we'll see eh? :P