As somebody who was actively involved in the miners strike and with the 20th anniversary is coming up, I wondered if anybody else on here has any memories/experiences to share.

I spent hours on the picket lines with the miners and saw first hand the antics of the some of the met police (sorry spook). Many of the bobbies who lived in the community were sympathetic but obviously couldn't show it openly.

We collected weekly on street corners and toured around the pubs with buckets (imagine doing that these days). Then went to Beighton and Killamarsh Miners Welfare Clubs and divied the money up. It was such a hard time and sad in many ways but at the same time full of passion as well.

I was born in 82, so obviously dont remember any of it.

Quite interested in it though. Was thnking that it would have been a good subject for school history classes, as the country was almost in Civil War. Nobody seems that bothered by it now, like it's all forgotten.

I've read about Orgreave - man that was some serious stuff that nobody my age seems to know (or care) about.

There's a good little book called 'Undermined' that has loads of re-prints of un-used newspaper shots from the time, and accounts of what happened by the miners, and their families. Fascinating, shocking and sad at the same time.

I remember it all too well. In fact I've got a letter personally signed from Arthur Scargill thanking me for my support (such as it was) during the strike.

This has been discussed here before, so apologies if I'm repeating myself, but it horrifies me to hear Sheffield people on this forum express a desire to kick out the Labour government. Some of them are obviously too young to remember the Thatcher years, but after what the Tories did to the South Yorkshire area during the 80s I can't believe anyone would want a repeat of that.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I remember it all too well. In fact I've got a letter personally signed from Arthur Scargill thanking me for my support (such as it was) during the strike.

This has been discussed here before, so apologies if I'm repeating myself, but it horrifies me to hear Sheffield people on this forum express a desire to kick out the Labour government. Some of them are obviously too young to remember the Thatcher years, but after what the Tories did to the South Yorkshire area during the 80s I can't believe anyone would want a repeat of that.

Mojo I'll be one of those very people.

Somehow can't see Tony Blair as the miners friend anymore than he was the fire fighters friend.

Anyway Mojo I don't remember seeng Mr Kinnock on many picket lines. I think he hated Arthur almost as much as Mrs T did.

If this country is so brilliant under the Labour Party why do you live at the other side of the world? :D

Originally posted by mojoworking
I remember it all too well. In fact I've got a letter personally signed from Arthur Scargill thanking me for my support (such as it was) during the strike.

This has been discussed here before, so apologies if I'm repeating myself, but it horrifies me to hear Sheffield people on this forum express a desire to kick out the Labour government. Some of them are obviously too young to remember the Thatcher years, but after what the Tories did to the South Yorkshire area during the 80s I can't believe anyone would want a repeat of that.

Well for a start Labour aren't Labour anymore! And I know quite a few Sheffielders from a typical working class background who were affected by the strike. Their opinion is that the Thatcher years were great. They have a lot of respect for what she did for this country. While they do disagree on the mining front they don't have anything against her apart from that.

Originally posted by Mo
Mojo I'll be one of those very people.

Somehow can't see Tony Blair as the miners friend anymore than he was the fire fighters friend.

Anyway Mojo I don't remember seeng Mr Kinnock on many picket lines. I think he hated Arthur almost as much as Mrs T did.

If this country is so brilliant under the Labour Party why do you live at the other side of the world? :D

Kinnock found it impossible to back Arthur simply because he (Scargill) refused to ballot the miners - something which proved to be his downfall. The miners' strike was a lost cause from that moment on.

I moved to Australia during the Thatcher years precisely because the industry in Sheffield had been decimated by the Tories and my job had been taken by the wonderful Maggie. Is that a good enough reason for you?

Blair is no friend of the unions, it's true, and I know the Labour Party is not the same as it used to be, but however bad you think Blair is, the Labour party has to be better for the working people than the Tories.

Originally posted by Foxxx
Well for a start Labour aren't Labour anymore! And I know quite a few Sheffielders from a typical working class background who were affected by the strike. Their opinion is that the Thatcher years were great. They have a lot of respect for what she did for this country. While they do disagree on the mining front they don't have anything against her apart from that.

Where did they tell you that - down the golf club?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Where did they tell you that - down the golf club?


No. They don't go to a golf club. And your point is exactly????

They just have the ability to think for themselves and not follow the lead of all the spoon feeding that goes on. Believe it or not, Thatcher did a lot for this country. My friends were effected by the minor strikes but they can also see that she did great things and was a good leader. I said, they disagreed with what happened to the minors but does that mean they can't respect her? My friends are from a normal working class background, you don't have to be middle class/upper class or attend a golf club to like thatcher.

I was too young to remember it, though none of it affected me or any of my family anyway.

Originally posted by t020
I was too young to remember it, though none of it affected me or any of my family anyway.

Oh t020 you disappoint me. I thought that you'd have a firm opinion on this one.

BTW haven't heard from any of the trendy lefties for a while. :wave:

Originally posted by jackthedog
I've read about Orgreave - man that was some serious stuff that nobody my age seems to know (or care) about.


I remember Orgreave, as I lived up the road from there and my mum also worked for Orgreave at the time. It was a hot summer school hols that I remember seeing the police riot vans, police horses, and police in riot gear clashing with the miners, whilst standing in the field at the back of our house trying to see if I could spot Arthur Scargill through my dads binoculars.

The miners strike passed me by as a naive 14 year old living in hampshire.

By the time Heseltine decided to close the last remaining pits, we were coming out in support of Parkhill Colliery in Lancs with benefits and fund raisers, as well as a student 'strike' (who'd notice?) and picket.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
The miners strike passed me by as a naive 14 year old living in hampshire.

By the time Heseltine decided to close the last remaining pits, we were coming out in support of Parkhill Colliery in Lancs with benefits and fund raisers, as well as a student 'strike' (who'd notice?) and picket. not wrong there phan:loopy:

Originally posted by Foxxx
No. They don't go to a golf club. And your point is exactly????

Of course you'll always find a few "normal" people who admired the mad old cow - mostly those from the "I'm all right Jack" sector who kept their jobs and profited out of Thatcherism.

But a lot of working people from Sheffield suffered under Thatcher and there is an entire generation out there who revile her. Even her own party colleagues and former cabinet ministers now view her as an embarrassment (this was plain to see on the recent two part BBC TV documentary)

Why do you think the Tories hold few, if any, seats in Sheffield?

Despite the current wave of anti-Blair feeling (not without cause, I admit), why do you think that Labour are odds-on to win the next election?

Originally posted by Foxxx My friends are from a normal working class background, you don't have to be middle class/upper class or attend a golf club to like thatcher.

This has to be one of the best quotes I've ever seen on this forum. You should get it framed and present it to some of the miners who lost their jobs in the late 80s. You'll probably end up wearing it, mind

The Thatcher years weren't all bad. I'm too young to remember, but from what I've been told they're not as bad as a lot of you make out.

Originally posted by panda79
not wrong there phan:loopy:

No the student strike went largely unnoticed (whose dumb idea was that anyway?), but the Women and Men of Parkhill Colliery seemed to appreciate the support and money and food that we (along with many others) got together for them.

Originally posted by t020
The Thatcher years weren't all bad. I'm too young to remember, but from what I've been told they're not as bad as a lot of you make out.

The Thatcher Years were a heady mixture of great things and appalling things. It had to happen at some time.. and Mrs T was there to put her name to it.

Originally posted by t020
The Thatcher years weren't all bad. I'm too young to remember, but from what I've been told they're not as bad as a lot of you make out.

Your right to some extent, she sorted out the trade unions that had run riot throughout the 70's but in the process closed down much of Britains manufacturing industry, hence the miners stike, looking around your own locality, the demise of the steel industry. She had the vision that the financial city of London would support the county, therefore no need for manufacturing etc.

Old battleaxe Thatcher was too smart for Scargill and the miners suffered. Call that a caring union leader? Not in a million years. He was a liability to them. And a madman to boot. A Rich Madman.

I was only 5 when the miners strike was on but I can quite clearly remember my step dad at the time, who was a miner, smashing up our old black and white TV set because Maggie Thatcher was on. I was quite upset because I thought she was a nice old lady :D

We didn't get a new TV for ages!

Originally posted by Lickszz
Old battleaxe Thatcher was too smart for Scargill and the miners suffered. Call that a caring union leader? Not in a million years. He was a liability to them. And a madman to boot. A Rich Madman.

Madman he may have been but history proved him right.

Thatch was using the police force as her own private army.
She was determined to punish the unions for bringing down Heath's government.
She had planned this for years as demonstrated by the un-natural stock piling of coal.

Scargill's mistake was despite having an original mandate from the membership for the strike he did not call for a further vote for continuation.

Now if you look at it from another point of view..... The unions had too much power and were running the country, not the government of the day.

Wouldn’t any right thinking person think that untenable? Things had to change. Foolishly for his members, Arthur Scargill just made it easier and quicker.

Without Arthur Scargill, I daresay that we would still have a large and effective coal industry.

His choice should have been to develop a more sensible set of tactics. The Tories set a trap for him and he fell for it, hook, line and sinker.


Also, What does everyone make of the Roger Windsor situation. He was Scargills right hand man but he is said to have been an MI5 operative or some similar such spook.

Originally posted by Lickszz
And a madman to boot. A Rich Madman.

A joke amongst ex-miners is that Scargill went into the strike with a small house and a big union...and came out of it with a big house and a small union!

Originally posted by Max
Thatch was using the police force as her own private army.
Not only did Thatcher use thugs from the Met to beat up the strikers, but the army was also used - soldiers wearing police uniforms!

So little surprise, if any, that Thatcher would have used MI5 in all this.

Originally posted by Abdul
[B]A joke amongst ex-miners is that Scargill went into the strike with a small house and a big union...and came out of it with a big house and a small union!




Precisely, He's had a long and lucrative ride on the back of some naive, trusting miners.

I was only about 7 at the time of the miners strike, but to this day have some very strong memories as it hit my family hard cos my dad was a miner and so were other relatives. I remember having to get clothes tokens for new clothes and being sent over to my grand parents house for a hot meal as my parents couldn't afford to feed my brother and I. Oh, those were the days :D

Originally posted by max
Thatch was using the police force as her own private army.


She was using the Army as her police force...

Soldiers in police uniforms with no ID numbers, so they couldnt be reported.

When thatcher came into power on the back of the famous quote "labour isn't working " with 1.5 million out of work then when out of power with 5 million out of work ,she didn't do a bad job did she? In those days any young lad who wasn't quite bright could get a job in the steelworks ,the pit , the railways ,etc and come out drawing a decent wage there was no need for him to go burgling or pinching cars ,he could buy his own! The council estates were steady places to live on ,people knew that there was opportunity to move onto better estates as houses became available then she brought in the right to buy and all the good housing stock disappeared from public ownership .This meant the couple whose first council property was a flat were then stuck there instead of moving into a decent house? True,there were some things she sorted out that needed sorting out but a lot of our current problems can be laid at her feet!

Anybody know where A Scargill is hiding? I would have thought that he'd have been on his soapbox spouting on this of all days.

Originally posted by Mo
Anybody know where A Scargill is hiding? I would have thought that he'd have been on his soapbox spouting on this of all days.
http://www.socialist-labour-party.org.uk/

Originally posted by Mo
Anybody know where A Scargill is hiding? I would have thought that he'd have been on his soapbox spouting on this of all days.

I'm confused Mo. You started this thread by telling us about all the commendable work you did on the picket lines during the miner's strike.

However, you appear to have no love for the Trade Unions in general and Arthur Scargill in particular.

What's the story?

It might have something to do with the fact that Scargill seems to have done a 'little' better than the average miner out of it all.

He has had a few nice trips around the world out of it.

Guest of Fidel Castro in Cuba

He is still Honorary President of the NUM, suspect he is not destitute.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I'm confused Mo. You started this thread by telling us about all the commendable work you did on the picket lines during the miner's strike.

However, you appear to have no love for the Trade Unions in general and Arthur Scargill in particular.

What's the story?

No dark and devious reasons. It's just that being a man with plenty to say for himself I would have thought that he would have wanted to mark this day in some way.

I was 100% behind the miners for their sakes and for the future of our communities. I was often disturbed by the way the miners hung on to Arthurs every last work. I swear if he had told them to walk off Flamborough Head they would have done.

His style of delivery was Hitleresque, just watch the footage shown on BBC at the mo. If I'm honest I didn't warm to him on the occasions I met him. I found him a very cold fish even when he was amongst his allies.

Where do you deduce that I am no lover of the trade union movement? I have always been a fully paid up trade union member whenever I have been in employment. How many of you socialists on here can say that I wonder?

Originally posted by Mo

Where do you deduce that I am no lover of the trade union movement? I have always been a fully paid up trade union member whenever I have been in employment. How many of you socialists on here can say that I wonder?

Perhaps I was jumping to conclusions. I noted your disillusionment with New Labour and assumed you'd thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Apologies if this not the case

Although closing of the mines ripped the heart out of numerous villages there were some beneficial spin offs.

Many miners went on to do better things which without losing their jobs they wouldn't have done. A friend of mine used his redundancy money to set up his own business and he's never looked back.

Women who had been content to take a back seat looking after baby and home were politicised and began to realise that they could influence events and make a difference to things around them. Many went on to further education or to work in the community.

It doesn't seem particularly implausible. I've seen police officers covering up their numbers in public order situations, and then getting away with things that they otherwise wouldn't.

It was sad, to witness a fascist dictatorial government's inability to deal with conflict in industrial relations. The Dictator Thatcher, who proved her real stupidity by aligning herself with General Pinochet. no less, (a while ago), and who was on the run from a war crimes court. This latter point having a bearing on the police baton charges and the street fighting which the strike brought. Not to mention the 'starve em out' attitude. A working men's strike and a government consisting of wealthy, landowners, industrial magnates et cetera, who have no empathy for 'workers' do not make comfortable bed partners. Aw reet lad.
Who is that French twerp using my name???:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Callassa
It was sad, to witness a fascist dictatorial government's inability to deal with conflict in industrial relations. The Dictator Thatcher, who proved her real stupidity by aligning herself with General Pinochet. no less, (a while ago), and who was on the run from a war crimes court. This latter point having a bearing on the police baton charges and the street fighting which the strike brought. Not to mention the 'starve em out' attitude. A working men's strike and a government consisting of wealthy, landowners, industrial magnates et cetera, who have no empathy for 'workers' do not make comfortable bed partners. Aw reet lad.


Well said! And as spook1210 reminded us, let's not forget the police who inflamed the situation by waving their bulging pay packets at the miners on the picket lines

Hello mo

If I remember the strike was about Arther Scargill saying there was a hit list to close the majority of the mines,which the then NCB and the government both said there was no such list.

So were have all the mines gone.

Before anyone say's they were not usable after the year long strike.which is the reason a lot of people, who know nothing about the strike or mining seem to believe.
I ask them this :-

Why were all most of the pits in Nottingham closed they worked?

Who was telling the truth?

More importantly - who cares?

Originally posted by t020
More importantly - who cares?

Probably the families of the miners who lost their jobs.

I'd say they cared quite a bit.

Originally posted by t020
More importantly - who cares?

I would think that you would care.

Putting aside the small matter of devastating communities and lives, we now have a greater reliance on other forms of energy generation...
...like wind turbines!!!

Originally posted by mojoworking
Of course you'll always find a few "normal" people who admired the mad old cow - mostly those from the "I'm all right Jack" sector who kept their jobs and profited out of Thatcherism.

But a lot of working people from Sheffield suffered under Thatcher and there is an entire generation out there who revile her. Even her own party colleagues and former cabinet ministers now view her as an embarrassment (this was plain to see on the recent two part BBC TV documentary)

Why do you think the Tories hold few, if any, seats in Sheffield?

Despite the current wave of anti-Blair feeling (not without cause, I admit), why do you think that Labour are odds-on to win the next election?



This has to be one of the best quotes I've ever seen on this forum. You should get it framed and present it to some of the miners who lost their jobs in the late 80s. You'll probably end up wearing it, mind

Don't shoot the messager. I merely told you what my friends from Sheffield have told me. They grew up in Sheffield and their family was affected by the strike big time. However, if you ask them now, they will tell you that they think Thatcher was a great leader. In fact one of them wishes she was in control now as we probably wouldn't be in all the mess we are now. Thatcher wouldn't take the soft approach that Blair takes on a lot of things.

As I say, don't shoot the messenger. I had some very interesting chats with my Sheffield friends, since the strike did not affect me and I was curious to hear their opinions.
Laugh as much as you like.

Originally posted by Foxxx

My friends were effected by the minor strikes but they can also see that she did great things and was a good leader. I said, they disagreed with what happened to the minors but does that mean they can't respect her?

Words fail me. The woman that spawned Blair. Made self-interest the only idea that matters ("there is no such thing as society") millions out of work, industries and communities destroyed in wholesale, BSE.
The cronyism, control freekery, lies, deception, money not morality ethics etc at which New Labour excel were learned at the feet of Thatcher
Good leader, Great things? If that's the truth I'm having a nightmare

I think you have to admit she was a good leader - in that she was good at autocratic leadership - think Hitler or Stallin in a blue twinset - whether she was good for the country is an entirely other matter!!!

Originally posted by Abdul
A joke amongst ex-miners is that Scargill went into the strike with a small house and a big union...and came out of it with a big house and a small union!


If A. Scargill has been reading this thread he's got plenty of evidence to sue Abdul and Lickszz for libel.
In my opinion he's an opinionated Stalinist but suggestions that he'd pocket union member's money are rubbish.
He was investigated by the police following the original allegations and they found absolutely no evidence.
It's more than likely that the same sort of people that planted forged documents in Iraq showing that George Galloway had received £M's from Sadaam were involved in spreading that rubbish.
The fact is that there was a plan for a mass pit closure propramme and that Cortonwood Colliery was deliberately closed to provoke a strike at a time of the government's choosing.
Even apologists for Thatcher wouldn't try to deny that now.

People should remember the actions of the police at that time. They were often being used as a militia and roamed through a number of pit villages and attacking anyone in view.
It showed what Governments are prepared to do to their own citizens if it suits them. We should worry about Blunkett trying to increase his extensive powers.

One issue of The Sheffield Star summed up the srike at the time. The Editorial went at lengths to condemn the miners' picket line violence (even though the A&E Dept. at Rotherham was full of strikers with head injuries) and inside was an article written by a female reporter who praised the bravery of several strikers who intervened when two policeman were beating the c**p out of her in a shop doorway and thereby saved her from serious injury.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
If A. Scargill has been reading this thread he's got plenty of evidence to sue Abdul and Lickszz for libel.
In my opinion he's an opinionated Stalinist but suggestions that he'd pocket union member's money are rubbish.
He was investigated by the police following the original allegations and they found absolutely no evidence.
It's more than likely that the same sort of people that planted forged documents in Iraq showing that George Galloway had received £M's from Sadaam were involved in spreading that rubbish.




Ned,

Where have I said that Scargill has ever 'pocketed' union members money? I said that he seems to have done better out of it all than the 'average' miner. Why?

Regarding Galloway, He is still suing the Daily Telegraph for libel which is due to be heard in November time.

Fawaz Zureikat, Jordanian businessman who was Galloways "agent" in Baghdad was also involved in the leukaemia victim Mariam scam which is being investigated by the Charities Commission and the Attorney General.

I can understand it if you have little or no knowledge of the labyrinthian financial web that exists in the Middle East, few people have, but from the little experience I have I can assure you that millions of dollars can disappear instantly, and reappear anywhere in the world, at will, with an audit trail that is non-existent.

Just think Bank Credit & Commerce International and they were the small fry.

I have had estimates given to me by "friends" that Galloway is sitting on a nest egg in Lebanon/Syria of approx $13 million.

And... without predjudice, I heard the rumour (no doubt that is all that it is) that Mr Scargill secretly collected loads of ruby's and other gems on his trips to the USSR before/ during / after the strike that were meant to support the cause and a few slipped out of his briefcase and into his pocket.

Can you really imagine that happening? Rumours seem to follow people like Mr Scargill.
:confused:

I presume no one has problems with me printing off some of the previous comments and forwarding them to Messrs Scargill and Galloway?
The right wing, Christian -fundamentalist (in my opinion) "Christian Science Monitor" has paid Galloway substantial damages and issued a grovelling apology for similar accuastions. The documentary evidence was supposedly 10 years old but forensic evidence indicated they were only a few weeks old.
How did they get to Iraq and who put them there? Was it the same people who forged documents showing that Iraq was attempting to import Uranium from Africa? Only T. Blair insists that this is real evidence now that the CIA, George W, Colin Powell et al have all admitted that they are crude forgeries. (served their purpose at the time though,eh?)
Whether the Telegraph case will prove to have a different ending will probably depend upon the quality of their forgeries.
Galloway has shown poor judgement in his choice of friends but there is nothing wrong with his publicising the 500,000 child deaths caused by UN sanctions or the cancer epidemic brought about by the use of depleted uranium in the Gulf War.

A lot of the stories about Scargill originated from Roger Windsor former Chief Exec of the NUM. It was Windsor who travelled to Lybia unknown to Scargill and Heathfield and met Gadaafi face to face. Great PR job! What were his motives?
Windsor has successfully sued for libel following allegations in the Express that he was working for MI5 during the strike. Even so his behaviour during and after the strike is strange. If anyone is interested in history and not gossip and forged documents, you may like to examine this article in which a respected journalist makes a voluntary and unreserved apology to Scargill about all these allegations.
http://freespace.virgin.net/terry.norm/newsletter_june2002.htm

Im sorry Nedd, but I don't quite see where you're heading to or coming from for that matter.

Are you for or against Scargill? For or against free speech? For or against George Galloway?

Sorry if I'm being a bit dopey, or are you just having fun by trying to frighten people? Why would you want to send anything to Scargill or Galloway?

"Truth and Justice For All" Al Pacino's best film. That sums it up.
I'm against, lies,distortions and character assasination.
I'm against "democratic" governments lying to the people they claim to represent. I'm against a powerful media who are happy to magnify these and whip up a lynch mob hatred of members of the awkward squad, people who won't keep their gobs shut and generally give the establishment a hard time.

There are things about these two men that I don't much like but people should consider how they have become hate figures. I remember in the Miners Strike at a time when the IRA was active, a woman at work asked me if I thought that Scargill was involved in the latest mainland bombings. How could she have developed that theory other than through Scargill's constant demonisation by the media.
It's the enemies of free speech who are trying to nobble Galloway now. They don't want people like him on "Newsnight" accusing Tony B. of being a war criminal. They don't want dissenting views getting a prominent airing.
I'm sure Galloway may have things in his past which are not very flattering but let's not forge documents to stitch him up, then report them as truth and have politicians referring to the news reports as "evidence"

If you bother to read:
http://freespace.virgin.net/terry.n...er_june2002.htm

It will indicate who I am for and against in this INSTANCEand at the same time demonstrate that some of the stories on this thread about Scargill are based on a libel

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I'm against "democratic" governments lying to the people they claim to represent. I'm against a powerful media who are happy to magnify these and whip up a lynch mob hatred of members of the awkward squad, people who won't keep their gobs shut and generally give the establishment a hard time.
That’s just because your bogyman of choice is governments (for whatever reason). For others, including lots of ex (thanks to Scargill) miners, it’s Arthur Scargill.


Originally posted by Ned Ludd
I remember in the Miners Strike at a time when the IRA was active, a woman at work asked me if I thought that Scargill was involved in the latest mainland bombings. How could she have developed that theory other than through Scargill's constant demonisation by the media.
Don’t be so patronising. Maybe she actually thought it for herself and didn’t need telling.

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
If you bother to read:
http://freespace.virgin.net/terry.n...er_june2002.htm
It will indicate who I am for and against in this INSTANCEand at the same time demonstrate that some of the stories on this thread about Scargill are based on a libel
Your link doesn’t work, but I did read through the other link that you posted. It reads like a journo that has had his wrists slapped by his proprietor and is in fear of being personally sued, and at the same time has a personal issue with Maxwell that he can now get off his chest as he’s dead and cant sue!

You see… its all a matter of perception.

What I do see is that in the same post you both praise and lambast the same media that you claim to hate, depending on where it sits within your own social pretentions. You build a case that simply suits yourself - something that you criticise others of doing... j'accuse! The message coming across from you is a little muddled.

Originally posted by Tony
For others, including lots of ex (thanks to Scargill) miners, it’s Arthur Scargill.


That really is a load of tosh. If Arthur went into any miners' welfare institution in the country he'd be welcomed with open arms. I don't think the same could be said of Thatcher, however.

Its not tosh Max... but the point I was making is that people choose their own bogyman. Ones persons hero is anothers villain.

well for what it's worth, I've only just read this thread and I'm going to post my opinion.

Before living in Sheffield I grew up in a mining town called Blyth in Northumberland. This whole town was based around the mine. When Thatcher began her persecution of the miners we were the only house in our street who were not directly employed by the mine. At this time the local community was far from rich but people had an honest wage and were doing an honest days work.

When Thatcher began her systematic closure of the mines the community was thrown into disarray. It was not unusual for all the kids in the street to be in our house getting a meal at tea time. This really pulled communities together (and tore them apart in some cases) in a way Thatcher and her supporters will never know and never understand.

The pit was just at the bottom of our street and there were running battles with the police regularly right in front of our house. I can tell you many times no numbers were worn, police brutality from those shipped in was very high, and the rights to protest were made a mockery of by Thatchers illegal army. It wasn't uncommon for a police van to be waiting at th school gates and many elder kids were dragged into the back and taken away to be given a "talking to". This happened, I seen it.

Since the closure of the mines the town of Blyth has been in a spiralling decline for many years until very recently when it is on the up. People's lives are ruined. People have existed in a life of poverty. Heroin and drug use has soared. Before anyone says this is a person's own choice, of course it is, but case study after case study shows the direct link between poverty and drug addiction.

Many of my school mates who's dads were miners and then became unemployed are now dead from Heroin. They had no job, they had no means of a decent lifestyle. Who do I blame, Thatcher

I've got a song by Hefner called "the day that Thatcher dies", and the day she does die I will be playing it on repeat and the people from Blyth will all be out that night and be glad that she is gone. In effect she killed and destroyed people's lives for her own greedy agenda of strengthening the rich and keeping down the poor.

I know people will probably cut and paste bits of this and have a go, but it's what I think, how I seen it, and I'm not frightened to tell it like it was.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Tony
Don’t be so patronising. Maybe she actually thought it for herself and didn’t need telling.

Patronising? Thank you . Let's not let facts intervene,eh?
The point is this woman developed her theory as a result of the climate created by the media .

You think the journalist had his arm twisted over 15 years after his original article?

Originally posted by Tony
The message coming across from you is a little muddled.

OK. The comments in this thread about Scargill receiving money, rubies etc from Lybia and Russia and the suggestions that dishonesty was involved in his house purchase, suggestions that money donated to the strikers' social funds never got past Scargill all originated from Roger Windsor, the former Chief Exec of the NUM speaking to the press nearly 20 years ago. (even if some contributors to this thread don't realise this)
FACT: French courts ordered Windsor to pay back £29.000 to the French Miners Union after he failed to pass it on to the NUM. To my mind he stole this money when people were going hungry.
FACT: French courts have found that Windsor made a fraudulent mortgage application which involved his wife's forged signature.
FACT: Windsor has been found guilty of the same sort of offences that he was accusing Scargill of.

Of course if a person is involved in criminal activities what better smokescreen than to point the finger a hate figure? Of course some people aren't interested in facts, it's easier to accuse people of being patronising than deal with those.

Ummm I don't have a problem with facts. Though I'm confused as to how Windsor being charged makes Scargill innocent??? :loopy: If you're going to use semantics, use them correctly please.

However, because you do seem rather smug. I suggest that you go down into the Dearne Valley, where my family is from and talk to them about Scargill. They may not like Thatcher much, but Scargill isn't very far behind her. They worked out long ago that Scargill was in it for his own political idioms, regardless of how he redressed it to suit the union situation. I simply point you to the .Socialist Labour Party website (http://www.socialist-labour-party.org.uk/) where you can read an interview with ex IRA terrorist and murderer Martin McGuinness.

More generally, I merely casually commented on issues that I had also heard first hand from primary sources. I'm sure you know what that means. However... I know when to stop on a public forum, so thats as far as it goes.

I am still curious as to why you are so keen on helping Scargill and Galloway take legal action against members of Sheffield Forum.

Cant believe that people are still bitter about this but here goes: how many lives were ruined during the miners dispute i.e. houses reposessed, divorces, people never working again, and you still think arthur is god.
Who lives in a big house and is still ranting about a government that disapeared ages ago. This person never did much work if truth be known.
When in charge of 'arthurs castle' in Barnsley, have any of you any idea if any of the benefits afforded to the leader of the union were abused?

When Thatcher began her systematic closure of the mines ?

Not systematic at all, done in one fell swoop with the help of a man that refused a ballot or democracy in plain English.

Dragonsoup do you believe that if the miners had not gone on strike the pits would still be open.Remember the men of the notts area worked and maggy still closed their pits thats what she thought of them.

If there had been a ballot the notts area would have voted againt the strike so the pits would still have closed.

Remember who said there was a closure list which started the strike, and who said there was no such list.The majority of the mines have now gone.
Who was telling lies?

The rules stated that a ballot or vote should have been used before a national strike. Not carried out, not democratic, one person saying what should be done followed by plenty of sheep= stalinism, communism,fascism or any other ism you care to mention. Still cant believe the romance attached to this episode by Radio bloody commy Sheffield and rony 'patronise the nearest working class person' robinson.

The so called sheep were men who knew there jobs and communities were under threat and were prepared to try and protect them,were the Notts men knew they were under threat and were prepared for someone else to do the fighting for them. As they had done in the past and Maggy knew that.

No difference between Notts men, Yorks men or Lancs, Cumbrian etc. all working men all proud and will defend each other to the death. But the leaders or so called leaders... now thats another story.
As I see it working men are used by capitalists to get their own ends i.e. profit, or political types i.e. union leaders.
Youd be hard pushed to tell the difference between some union leaders and capitalists, i.e. wear a suit, stay in the best hotels while at a conference in Blackpool.... let some other poor tw.t stay in the stinking foundry in Sheffield. I know this because a very close relative was a union convenor during the steel strike.
He thinks paid trips to look at how some other poor foundryman in Russia copes is o.k. because he is doing it on 'Union' business
Im glad Im self employed. If you like the back slapping camaraderie follow the herd stuff then carry on to the edge of the abyss sheep -or should I say lemming.
p.s. You never said why there was no ballot, or in other words democracy amongst the workers

As i said some men will fight for whats right some won't, some will ride on others backs, look at the mining area,s through history and the same people have always rode on others backs.Need i say which area did the riding and the same area would have worked no matter what the outcome of any ballot.They have gone against the outcome of national ballots before.They did not want thier pits to close but wanted other people to fight thier battle.

I think the real reason that so many pits closed after the strike is far simpler... imported coal is cheaper.

To say "well they would have done it anyway" is nothing like justification for not ballotting the members in a supposedly democratic organisation.

Then again - it's a bit like Scargill being lifetime president.

Originally posted by t020
The Thatcher years weren't all bad. I'm too young to remember, but from what I've been told they're not as bad as a lot of you make out.

What planet do you live on? I'm sorry I don't mean to seem rude, but Thatcher did nothing for this country except create an 'I'm alright jack' generation. Just be thankfull that you were too young to remember them!

Originally posted by dragonsoup
When Thatcher began her systematic closure of the mines ?

Not systematic at all, done in one fell swoop with the help of a man that refused a ballot or democracy in plain English.

Did you know that Scargill settled the dispute in the autumn of 1984 in a meeting in a London hotel with the Coal Board, meaning victory to the miners. They adjurned for a couple of hours while the agreement was typed up. Then the Coal Board came back and said that they wanted the word 'review' put in the agreement. Now everyone in the mining industry knows that the word 'review' means the same as 'closure'.

I remember the Miners strike and all of the hatred directed at anyone who didn't agree with them. I worked with someone who had been driven out of their Job and the Village they had lived in all of their lives just because they stuck by their beliefs.
I also remember the pollution caused by coal burning and I don't understand why this is not included in the never ending arguments that try to glorify the industry and tell us that the country is somehow diminished because the mines where closed. Years ago Iworked for the mineworker pension scheme and used to deal the death certificates of miners and ex-miners, the vast majority of which gave various lung diseases as direct cause of death, reading them made me realise what a terrible industry it was.

I suppose that it is glorified as a class struggle by those who seek to make political gain from it.

Originally posted by boyface
Since the closure of the mines the town of Blyth has been in a spiralling decline for many years until very recently when it is on the up. People's lives are ruined. People have existed in a life of poverty. Heroin and drug use has soared. Before anyone says this is a person's own choice, of course it is, but case study after case study shows the direct link between poverty and drug addiction.

Who do I blame, Thatcher


There's a programme on ITV tonight at 10:45 called "Children of the Miners Strike". It was filmed near Worksop. There's an article here (http://society.guardian.co.uk/drugsandalcohol/story/0,8150,1259228,00.html). It may be interesting for people who know some of the mining towns in this area to watch.

A late reply I know as I have only come across this debate today but I have studied the strike and can answer some of the questions and explode some myths.

1. The strike was not started by Scargill but by miners at the non militant Cortonwood who moved out spontaneously as time was short before there pit was to be closed (that had had millions invested in it the year before).

2. Scargill had held 3 ballots for national strike action since he became President in 81 and all had failed so the miners were not simple lemmings with no mind of their own, Cortonwood simply brought reality home.

3. There was no ballot because it was a spontaneous movement that occurred sometimes during emergencies in trade unionism. Once thousands were out it would have felt/been seen as foolish to tell everyone to go home and tell them the ballot paper was in the post. Secondly Notts miners had a history of going their own way regardless of ballots. In 77 the conference then a ballot voted no to an incentive scheme. They just ignored it and did their own thing. Hardly deserving of trust then. And as the majority were clearly out it was still democratic, it just didn’t involve a piece of paper coming in the mail that would be pondered over while the objective and fair media gave miners some well informed thoughts about which way to vote.

4. Scargill has never been rich, he was simply paid the going rate for a union leader as decided annually at conference. All he ever owned was a house and a car. In the strike years a Rover 2000 and then a Granada Scorpio. The house was a simple bungalow for many years. In 1986 he bought a much larger house, not Chatsworth. A tad tasteless considering but nothing sinister.

5. Windsor being discredited and shown to be a liar does not make Scargill right but destroys the credibility and evidence of his harshest critic who was paid thousands by Maxwell’s Mirror. And as someone pointed out, the editor apologised profusely 15 years later.

6. All the scandal and its false basis is covered in massive well cross referenced depth in the book 'The Enemy Within' by Seumas Milne. The long list of positive reviews is testament to this books quality and is well worth a read and a lot better than remembering tabloid headlines from a sleazy press years ago.

7. 5 people died on the miners side during the strike, 2 miners on the picket line and 3 youths smothered while digging for coal to keep warm as the DHSS had been ordered to give nothing to strikers. How many Police died? And as someone pointed out, South Yorks hospital staff will tell you that they were choc a bloc with miners casualties and few Police, many of whom wore armour/protective clothes, had dogs/horses and all were armed. One miner has suffered brain damage to this day and another was even arrested for damaging Police property with his teeth.

8. The Police went on the rampage and were caught by TV cameras doing so but surprisingly went unpunished, even the instigator of that famous beating broadcast on ITN on June 18th at Orgreave.

9. The riot trial for Orgreave collapsed when the Police evidence was proven to be false. Scargill subpoenaed the Police videotape that contradicted everything the Police said. A shocked jury who had watched the re edited BBC version agreed.

10. The coal industry was under threat from the start as it was considered better to have nuclear power stations than thousands of labour voting trade unionist miners. Mining had been given massive investment in 77 in reaction to the energy crisis of 74. All the miners tried to do was stop the decimation, there were 3 million + unemployed at the time and no alternatives in the mining areas. The majority though by no means all of the Notts miners did the opposite and were assured they were safe. Less than ten years later they were decimated too and these were the hugely profitable super pits. Proof that Scargill did not destroy the industry and a lesson in what happens when you try to do deals with your enemies and seek favour and respectability.

I was quite young at the time, with a young baby. I have a few memories:

1. A friend was a civilian police photographer at the time. He was sat on a wall taking photographs of what was happening (can't remember if it was Orgreave or not, but I think it was). A copper on a police horse charged past him and whacked him over the side of the head with his truncheon. Fortunately my friend got his ID number as he fell to the floor.

2. Dad was an ambulance driver in those days, he was called to attend and take someone to hospital (from a private house, nothing to do with the strike) as he tried to rush the very sick patient to hospital a huge crowd of striking miners blocked the way and refused to move until the path was eventually cleared by police.

3. I was on benefits as hubby had lost his job. Someone called doing a house to house collection for cash or food for the miners. I told them I had no cach, and I had two tins in the cupboard - I still remember - 1 tin of beans and 1 tin of tomato soup. One was for dinner that evening, and the other for lunch the next day. I got a load of verbal from the 'collector' for not supporting the miners by giving them food.

4. I remember police blocking the Motorway exit, stopping any vehicle with more than one bloke in it, and making them turn around - not allowing them to travel if they thought they were miners going to picket.

I can remember the miners strike especially the guys at Orgreave they used to come up to the Asda at Handsworth for there dinner and sit on the grass same Asda that was later used for the film Full Monty.

I was only young and our hideout was across the road from the picketers so we used to see them quite a lot and I was sat on the wall the other side of the road when all the trouble flared up saw a lot of it cant remember much but will always remember the horses charging into the crowd.

Tucked away , almost , near the end of the Miner's strike was a piece of news that has always intrigued me -----unfortunately , I can't remember all the details but I'm sure someone will !
There was a small union , obviously connected to the main union , if only in terms of proximity .
It was called something like , "the Winders Union " and it was for those men who operated the lifts which took the face workers and others underground .
The news article seemed to suggest [again ,memory ?] that if this small union had backed the strike ,right from the beginning , then ALL the miners would have been unable to work . Safety , for one thing , would have been the main factor . Is that correct ? Or have I [or did the news report ?] exaggerate the importance of this tiny group of men ?

You are right, they were called NACODS and after doing little for months finally voted to strike but changed their minds after some assurances that pit closures would be reviewed.

They could have won it from the start but for some unexplained reason they didn't seem to realis that they would suffer big job cuts if the industry was wound down.

They suffered the same fate as the rest.

Sums up the old united we stand, divided we fall saying.

I remember this photograph (shame I can't find an uncropped version)
A picture of Lesley Boulton about to be battered by a mounted 'Policeman' at Orgreave.

I knew Lesley at the time, and the photographer.

Shocking image. I remember a local copper trying to tell me it was a montage. Poor brainwashed sod believed it too.


Photo (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/draggletail/boulton/lboulton.jpg)

Source ( I have lost my original copy) (http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/rambling/strike84.html)

Dave 72 ,

Thanks for information . It seems incredible , doesn't it , looking back , that they couldn't see where their long-term interests lay ? The Nottinghamshire , "split " would have been irrelevant and all that bitterness , violence and death avoided.
I vaguely remember reading it and having to look twice ! I wonder what they'd have done with hindsight ? Strange to think , without exaggeration , that the whole future of the country , in a way , was in the hands of a small group of .........well ........miners or , ex-miners , some of them .

i was in both miners strikes i was working down orgreave at that time as a coal face worker if it was not for thatcher splittng the unions who knows what might have happend the notts miners thought it did not matter to them because they had plenty of coal to be mined no pit closures in the near future for them at that time they thought they were safe now time tells a differerant story i saw some nasty things happen from both sides we were desperate to keep our jobs we knew there was plenty of coal left in the pits but thatcher and her side kick Mc gregger no one seems to remeber him he was worse than her he buggered of back to canada when all the dust had setteled with a big wad of dosh no doubt whatever arthur scargill said in those days has turned out to br true thatcher has turned this country into a nation of shopkeepers indeed the site whare meadowhell is now used to be 1 of the biggest steel plants in europe i know we cant stand in the way of progress but i think if the unions had stuck togeather we would have won the srike now they are open-casing the old pits and getting all the coal that it left when it could have been mined there is still to this day a square mile of coal under tinsley what could not be mined because of the motoway and viaduct sorry i jumped on this thread a bit late wel at least ive had my twopenneth best regards steve..

Originally posted by Ned Ludd
Words fail me. The woman that spawned Blair. Made self-interest the only idea that matters ("there is no such thing as society")

I believe this quote has been taken out of context by many people to use as a stick against Thatcher.

The full quote was "There is no such thing as society: there are individual men and women, and there are families"

The point was that there is no magic entity called society to blame everything on or hope it will make everything wonderful by itself - quite a straightforward example of the conservative belief in personal responsibility to my mind...

My son was an apprentice electrician at Brookhouse collery in the Miners strike . He was 17 when it started, still went to collage but stayed out in the strike. He should as an apprentice have recieved some money from Social Security, but was denied this. So he called at the miners welfare and got an occasional food parcel to help out.

We lived at the time at Woodhouse Mill just down the Rd from Orgreave and I heard terrible tales of mistreatment of his friends by the police and how the miners destroyed gardens to esape the police riders who followed them.

My son marched back with the miners a year later behind thier banner and I supppose it will stay in his memory for ever.

When Brookhouse closed he was sent to Treaton to work. No one sat with him in the canteen until one man said " Stop pussyfooting about were you in of out." Only then did other miners accept him. He said there was a complete shift of miners who worked in the strike cos no one would work with them. When he finished his apprenticeship he had to work another year of practical work to make up what he had missed.

Not sure whether it was Brookhouse or Treaton where he said they are renewing perfectly good baths and boilers so as to look uneconomical in order to close it.
When he left Treaton as a fully trained electician he had great difficulty getting a job. It was said that the people who went on the miners strike were blacklisted.

hazel

The documentary about the plot against Wilson the other night shows that the country's real criminals go unpunished. Books such as Spycatcher, A Very British Coup and The Enemy Within also demonstrate this. Murder at the Farm lays bare judicial corruption and double standards. The Battle for Orgreave exposes the truth behind how the miners were battered rather than policed. The trial did collapse after the Judge and Jury watched the Police videotape (subpoenad by Scargill) of themselves in action and read the 'statements' of 'miners' after all.

The unseen elites of the state, the 'magic circle' of the right chaps have always been in charge and probably always will be.

TV documentaries, media and novels (fictions by definition) are produced to generate viewing figures for the networks, not represent truth in the UK. You should base your views on fact rather than documentaries and newspaper stories -after all, they are designed to harness the passions of the masses and often represent little in the way of fact. Naivety is the target of their output – don’t be drawn in.

bartfarst, you may have been abroad at the time, but the miners strike was a terrible time and was definitly not fiction.
The police rioted at Orgeave and their comanders lost comtrol of them (or did they act under orders?)
It was a disgusting sight to see good working men trampled and battered under the feet of police horses.
Dont forget these wernt ordinary bobbies. They were draughted in by Thatcher from other areas to do her stinking dirty work for her.
May she rot in Hell

bartfarst, you may have been abroad at the time, but the miners strike was a terrible time and was definitly not fiction.
The police rioted at Orgeave and their comanders lost comtrol of them (or did they act under orders?)
It was a disgusting sight to see good working men trampled and battered under the feet of police horses.
Dont forget these wernt ordinary bobbies. They were draughted in by Thatcher from other areas to do her stinking dirty work for her.
May she rot in Hell

Men who are striking and attacking the Police are neither good men nor working men.
I think I'll forgive Thatcher her having to stamp on some civil unrest for the legacy of economic growth that her policies generated in the long-term. The only person responsible for the plight of the miners was Scargill (and that was a very nice house he had on Cortworth Road, paid for directly by Union money - quite how he got away with that one I don't know).
My father, a miners' son himself, was sat in casualty in the Hallamshire with a cut hand (done at work) when Scargill came in with a nice lump on the head from a truncheon, and started explaining what had happened to him. My father looked him in the eye, leaned forward and said 'Good!'.
I for one would love to have bought a pint for the copper who knobbled that left-wing idiot - his actions were tantamount to treason.

Your idea of treason is very diffent to mine. Thatcher is the traitor, she is the one who dragged the country to its knees, and destroyed our industry.
The mistake Arthur made was not taking the thing through the courts.
But if he had done they would have found against him.
As the Yanks say 'you cant fight city hall'

Men who are striking and attacking the Police are neither good men nor working men.

I The only person responsible for the plight of the miners was Scargill (and that was a very nice house he had on Cortworth Road, paid for directly by Union money - quite how he got away with that one I don't know).
My father, a miners' son himself, was sat in casualty in the Hallamshire with a cut hand (done at work) when Scargill came in with a nice lump on the head from a truncheon, and started explaining what had happened to him. My father looked him in the eye, leaned forward and said 'Good!'.
I for one would love to have bought a pint for the copper who knobbled that left-wing idiot - his actions were tantamount to treason.

Again, if someone batters someone you dislike thats OK, Scargill was not attacking the copper, the copper battered him for fun not LEGALLY in self defence having no doubt soaked up the tabloids every day for years without a second thought. Its as bad as someone just battering you for your views.

Scargill bought his own bungalow in the early 70's and had it paid off before the strike. At a later date the union bought the house off him as it did with all national officials for years before he came along. Another reason was to stop the officials becoming homeless in the event of a dispute that saw them personally bankrupted. You'll be repeating the now discredited Quaddafi chestnut next. Again the FACTS are to be found in The Enemy Within by Seumas Milne which would have no doubt been banned if the Spycatcher fiasco had not taught the government a lesson.

As for Orgreave, South Yorkshire top cop Clements said in court that he ordered the horses to approach miners 'at a canter' and the police vidotape as well as all the news footage disproved this. The news got away with it by some smart editing that appeared to show men in t shirts and jeans appear, suddenly go mad and stone cops for no reason when in fact they were attacked first. The Police videotape had not been re edited and the Police did not expect it to be an exhibit but unfortunately for them and their fabricated case full of forged statements and ill rehearsed lies it was subpoenaed by Scargill. The rial collapsed and big compensation was paid out. As usual this kind of scandal did not make the news in any noticeable way.

I believe this quote has been taken out of context by many people to use as a stick against Thatcher.

The full quote was "There is no such thing as society: there are individual men and women, and there are families"

The point was that there is no magic entity called society to blame everything on or hope it will make everything wonderful by itself - quite a straightforward example of the conservative belief in personal responsibility to my mind...

This is a very good point barny. This must be the most misquoted and misunderstood phrase in modern British politics. It is actually a quite unremarkable statement of conservative philosophy and a criticism of the reification inherent in socialist dogma.

This is a very good point barny. This must be the most misquoted and misunderstood phrase in modern British politics. It is actually a quite unremarkable statement of conservative philosophy and a criticism of the reification inherent in socialist dogma.

Could it not equally be said 'There is no such thing as the economy. There are individuals and groups of people striving to trade in produce and services with a view to making a profit.
If you deny there is society, are you also not denying cultural and national identity? If that's 'conservative philosophy' I think they should stick to the farsical power politics at which they excel.

I believe this quote has been taken out of context by many people to use as a stick against Thatcher.

The full quote was "There is no such thing as society: there are individual men and women, and there are families"

The point was that there is no magic entity called society to blame everything on or hope it will make everything wonderful by itself - quite a straightforward example of the conservative belief in personal responsibility to my mind...

No, what the quote meant was that it was an excuse/green light for every selfish person to try to grab whatever they could for themselves and their family, and for everyone else to go to hell.

State-sanctioned greed. Thatcher was the worst thing that ever happened to this country. "The price of everything and the value of nothing".

We're reaping the whirlwind today.

StarSparkle

Could it not equally be said 'There is no such thing as the economy. There are individuals and groups of people striving to trade in produce and services with a view to making a profit.
If you deny there is society, are you also not denying cultural and national identity? If that's 'conservative philosophy' I think they should stick to the farsical power politics at which they excel.

Thatcher was not of course saying that a country consists of atomised individuals with no relationship with each other. Indeed, how could she given her belief in the economic philosphy of F.A. Hayek, which hinges on the idea of spontaneous order - the 'catallaxy' - emerging from myriad interactions between people (Adam Smith said much the same thing). Nor was she denying Britsh national identity. Indeed, she had a much stronger grip on this than did many of her opponents at the time.

Her famous remark was made at the time when the word 'society' (and indeed the words 'social' and 'community') had been hijacked by the hard left as a means of justifying collectivism and state intervention. As I mentioned earlier, she was challenging the reification inherent in such usages.

No, what the quote meant was that it was an excuse/green light for every selfish person to try to grab whatever they could for themselves and their family, and for everyone else to go to hell.

State-sanctioned greed. Thatcher was the worst thing that ever happened to this country. "The price of everything and the value of nothing".

We're reaping the whirlwind today.

StarSparkle

Sparkle, you know I love you, but I must disagree with you here. I wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you have written on the forum and love your posts, but disagree with you about Margaret. I am not saying she was a saint (I am much too cynical to hero worship any politician) but I do think she did some necessary things at the time.

The UK could not have gone on like it was doing, with overmanned, grossly inefficient and uncompetitive industries, crippling strikes, periodic hyperinflation etc. We were slipping rapidly down the league table of global competitiveness and indeed of global wealth. We needed a change agent and its interesting that in France, Germany and Italy at the moment there are calls for a Thatcher type figure to shake up their uncompetitive economies. Some of her measures were indeed harsh, but given the monumental nature of the task facing her at the time, and the vigorous opposition to almost everything she tried to do, this is perhaps not too surprising. Rolling back the frontiers of the state is never easy, particularly when there are entrenched vested interests of all sorts trying to prevent you from doing any such thing.

I was out one day when the miners were having a rally, and my husband grabbed my arm and told me to keep my mouth shut. I disagreed with the strike then and I still disagree today. The miners should have been sacked on the spot for walking out. The strike did nobody any good.

I was out one day when the miners were having a rally, and my husband grabbed my arm and told me to keep my mouth shut. I disagreed with the strike then and I still disagree today. The miners should have been sacked on the spot for walking out. The strike did nobody any good.

I thought the reason they went on strike was because they were being sacked - you know, pit closures. As far as I'm aware, closed pits don't require workers.

I was 16 when the strike started and just getting political. My memories of the strike (i was in Coventry that had 1 big pit) was the utter contempt the police force showed toward fellow working people. I was in the city centre with a bucket collecting when a policeman threw a half eaten sandwich into the bucket and laughed that he could afford it on all the overtime we'd given him.

It is a subject that should be taught in schools. There is a real argument that when the police where used as a political tool, it was the start of their loss of respect within society.

Yes at the time Unions had too much power but many in unprotected industries would say that the balance has swung too far the other way. The restrictions placed on unions by Mrs T where so draconian that she knew they would lead to the collapse of union membership.

We lived on a newish estate in Eckington at the time, and a few of the couples who had bought homes were miners. I sympathised with them when I saw a some of them get their homes repossessed as none of us know what is around the corner. We did have a few things stolen during that time, and our petrol tank was siphoned a couple of times. I know I have no evidence that the perpetrators were miners, but the mini crime wave seemed to abate when the dust had settled following the strike. I know one or two ex miners families now, and they seem to be better off than me now. Many of them had NCB houses and bought their own homes at a discount when they were finished. I dont begrudge them that, its a bloody hard job and I wouldnt want to do it.

No. They don't go to a golf club. And your point is exactly????

They just have the ability to think for themselves and not follow the lead of all the spoon feeding that goes on. Believe it or not, Thatcher did a lot for this country. My friends were effected by the minor strikes but they can also see that she did great things and was a good leader. I said, they disagreed with what happened to the minors but does that mean they can't respect her? My friends are from a normal working class background, you don't have to be middle class/upper class or attend a golf club to like thatcher.

Well said!

Her policies set the foundations of the growth and stability that gave us the low inflation and strong international economy we have now - it's all down to her long-term plans, not the fumblings of the current cabinet who are making a right dog's dinner of it for the next government to patch up.
Sadly, there are plenty out there who can't think for themselves and choose to blame Mrs Thatcher for the world recession, rather than see how she fought to preserve Britain through it.

I know one or two ex miners families now, and they seem to be better off than me now. Many of them had NCB houses and bought their own homes at a discount when they were finished. I dont begrudge them that, its a bloody hard job and I wouldnt want to do it.

Well of course, you perhaps don't realise it but the compensation bill for the miners is still coming out of the taxpayers now. After all this time. At the last count it was £5billion pounds and still rising...........and before anyone asks, I ain't spending my remaining years on Google looking it up. It was reported on a reputable newspaper very recently published on the internet. Many miners did extremely well after 1985..and their Bank Managers are on first name terms with them. :)

1978/79.....I remember it well. The nation in the grip of anarchy from the trade unions, the nation on it's knees, dead people left in makeshift morgues unburied, dustbins and trade refuse left to rot in the street............you have no idea have you? To top it all James Callaghan, the Labour Prime Minister, returning from his holiday in the Caribbean, getting off the plane and being asked about the crisis in Britain, saying "Crisis, what crisis?"

1978/79.....I remember it well. The nation in the grip of anarchy from the trade unions, the nation on it's knees, dead people left in makeshift morgues, dustbins and trade refuse left to rot in the street............you have no idea have you? To top it all James Callaghan, the Labour Prime Minister, returning from his holiday in the Caribbean, getting of the plane and being asked about the crisis in Britain, saying "Crisis, what crisis?"

It was not anarchy, it was democratically organised and led.

Gravediggers only struck in Liverpool, the Evening Standard cynically bought a rat from a shop and photographed it on a pile of rubbish to exaggerate the mood admitted the editor. Secret History - The Winter of Discontent Channel 4 1998.

Callaghan was at a conference and never said those words, they were simply the words of a Sun headline.

You couldn't make it up...

A lot of miners did pretty ok after the the strike. I deal with Mining Personal Injury claims and you would'nt beleive what some of them earn now! The one's that were made redundant got a decent settlement - ok, their jobs were lost but that was going to happen anyway. I know of many people who put their redundancy settlement to work - i.e. business.

My father in law was a miner, made redundant - he bought a fish n chip shop with his settlement, which eventually turned into 2, then 3 - he is now retired sold up with a nice retirement home abroad.

On the flip side of the coin, I can tell you of miner's who purchased brand new cars with their settlement cheque's, which, 6-months later, had to be sold.

I appreciate that this is only a small minority, but I just wanted to tell you that some people moved on to bigger and better things. Yes, some communities were devasted like Grimethorpe in Barnsley.

Anyone seen the film about the miners in Barnsley - 'Brassed off', filmed in Grimethorpe Barnsley, I only live 15-mins from there - you wouldn't beleive the area now, since the closure of the pit and time for the land to settle, its all brand new housing estates with houses selling for at least £150k The only council housing left are occupied by Miners' Widows who refuse to be re-housed.

In my job, I meet ex miner's and family of, everyday - I hear life stories daily, some good, some bad. But I've never met a Miner who regrets doing the job.

Yes I place the destruction of my country solely on her shoulders. The devastation she caused brought about, poor education, the destruction of basic decency and law and order, and the introduction of the drug trade.
If you were not alive prior to the reign of this evil woman you have no comprehension of what a great place this was

I have, artisan, and you are using your voice through the wrong orifice. :)

Yes I place the destruction of my country solely on her shoulders. The devastation she caused brought about, poor education, the destruction of basic decency and law and order, and the introduction of the drug trade.
If you were not alive prior to the reign of this evil woman you have no comprehension of what a great place this was

AHa now I get it! Funny to think that I thought you were genuine until this post. Shows how deranged anti-Thatcher people usually are that it was believable.

Now I have to say top wind up!

I'm keeping the signature though - makes me laugh!

Well of course, you perhaps don't realise it but the compensation bill for the miners is still coming out of the taxpayers now. After all this time. At the last count it was £5billion pounds and still rising...........and before anyone asks, I ain't spending my remaining years on Google looking it up. It was reported on a reputable newspaper very recently published on the internet. Many miners did extremely well after 1985..and their Bank Managers are on first name terms with them. :)

With 180,000 men at the time of the strike breathing in dust, suffering vibration white finger and broken bones in one of the most dangerous occupations its hardly surprising. Many died/are dying an early death, many live on respirators to this day. That was the blood price for supplying energy. I doubt any compo is really sufficient. The bill for the taxpayer will be higher when a nuclear plant goes up, we have already had Three Mile Island, Windscale and Chernobyl.

Who could forget of the murder of a cab driver by snarling packs of animals. Luckily, the history books don't cast lovable romance over such behaviour.

The fact that mining had been in decline since the first two decades of the twentieth century. The fact that communist Scargill made matters much worse.

The hilarious comments that you wouldn't know what is was like as you weren't old enough, when a) i was and b) my town bore the brunt and was pretty much part of the epicentre.

Most importantly though is c) having worked on miners claims at a solicitors i know the extreme injuries every single one of them exhumed. Doncaster is no longer like that, the people live longer. However, we are still pretty much the epicentre of mining because with progression and the alienation of the putrid alien Union race came a realisation that progression comes with capitalism.

Hence Donny rising above the region, punching above it's weight with said weight forever punching higher as growth forever marches forward against regional rivals.

With 180,000 men at the time of the strike breathing in dust, suffering vibration white finger and broken bones in one of the most dangerous occupations its hardly surprising. Many died/are dying an early death, many live on respirators to this day. That was the blood price for supplying energy. I doubt any compo is really sufficient. The bill for the taxpayer will be higher when a nuclear plant goes up, we have already had Three Mile Island, Windscale and Chernobyl.

Well said Dave - I have personally dealt with chest disease claims in excess of £100k - ask the Widow of that dead miner what she would rather have, her Husband or the big fat cheque.

Having read some or the replies on here I weep for my county and the world. Some people truly have no heart

Of course Britain was better in those days, for a start I was a young man, we had not had the evil cow Thatcher as PM destroying our Country and probably most of the ignorant progeny of her time in power were not yet born, or dragged up in her ruthless world

Yes I place the destruction of my country solely on her shoulders. The devastation she caused brought about, poor education, the destruction of basic decency and law and order, and the introduction of the drug trade.
If you were not alive prior to the reign of this evil woman you have no comprehension of what a great place this was


Don't blame artisan, he's getting used to Earth gravity and has adapted well since crawling out of that wreckage at Roswell.

He doesn't yet understand earth politics or economy, but he's going to try harder.

I don't think Thatcher was to blame for the world recession of that period - I think it was an evil plot by the Ferret Protection League who sought a major distraction to wrest domination of the UK pet market from dogs and cats.

Well - at least that makes more sense than artisan's view of it.

Having read some or the replies on here I weep for my county and the world. Some people truly have no heart

The miners were grossly overpaid, greedy, and had to understand that the country didn't need their coal.

Do we keep everybody else in jobs when there's nobody buying their product?
Should Rover have carried on making cars that nobody bought?

With 180,000 men at the time of the strike breathing in dust, suffering vibration white finger and broken bones in one of the most dangerous occupations its hardly surprising. Many died/are dying an early death, many live on respirators to this day. That was the blood price for supplying energy. I doubt any compo is really sufficient. The bill for the taxpayer will be higher when a nuclear plant goes up, we have already had Three Mile Island, Windscale and Chernobyl.

Dream on, Dave72. What really happened was that the Government at the time came to arranging "walk-through" disability clinics with the Unions and various Solicitors involved. These still happen. There is a case local to me which I won't expand on here, but the tie up between the "Disability Scheme" and the UDM is under investigation. A friend of mine, an Engineer in the Pit, came out with £35000 compo or so for "a bad chest". Prior to going for the Invalidity claim he stopped smoking, although a lifelong smoker, had a basic Ventolin Inhaler prescribed by the doctor, and didn't use it for at least a week before attending the Disability Clinic, by his own admission to me. He was allowed his claim. He was granted disability benefit for emphysema, a Mobility Allowance at the highest rate and spends his time walking at his seaside caravan for miles at a time.

I might add that I look at his medicated inhaler and it is 2 stages down from mine, I have COPD too, but I worked in the Steel Industry. I take 3 different inhalers and am much more restricted on my walking. If I tried to go a week without one of my inhalers, I would be dead.

As the Chest claims started to drop in frequency, another phenomena was brought in to top the Compo up for the miners....."White finger".....He has just had another top-up for this complaint. I don't know how much he was awarded for that, but I know it was substantial, many thousands of pounds. The job he was doing, by the way would rarely have involved him in using vibratory equipment, if at all. I have experience regarding "Vibratory White finger"..my son has it. He started with it at 32 years of age, working for some years in the Steel Industry, on a bar-straightening machine. I can tell you now, it is very distinctive and easy to spot.

Finally, the guy I have mentioned bought a very nice 3 bed Semi-Detached Villa locally (ex management NCB property which he previously rented) at a true snip of a price from the NCB. It is now worth at least 5 times what he paid for it.

Many miners came out of the deal very well.....don't try to kid us.

Many miners came out of the deal very well.....don't try to kid us.

As did the place i worked for. New multi-million quid HQ but then they did poach someone from the Government claims handlers fairly early on ;) It wasn't taken away from the miners though...

That's on top of the generous redundancy packages most miners received.

When i worked at a call centre in 2001 it was populated by a couple of middle aged men who got done out of business as the cash paid was enough for miners to put the rest out of business as plumbers and electricians.

I have read the thread with interest.

Other than Mo, was anyone actually directly involved ?
I was. My Dad was a miner - until very recently actually. He worked at High Moor for many years until it was shut & then transferred to North Yorkshire.
The strike was bloody awful. No he didn't go to the picket lines, no he didn't go into work.
My Mum refused the food parcels and she worked 16 hour days to get us all through it.
It was horrible to see my Dad, his friends & our families go through it.
He couldn't go to work even if he wanted to. He saw what happened to the chap across the road when he went in. His house was trashed by fellow miners who painted the front of his house in 6 foot letters with the word 'SCAB'.

All I can say to that is there are thousands of cases, it was a dangerous industry and emphyesema lung disease has lead to early deaths, the idea that spending years in a dusty unstable environment would not have after efects is illogical.

I am glad that SOME miners did well after the strike, it gives me no pleasure to imagine them permanently destitute. Many, particularly those who were middle aged did not do well and have struggled ever since in healthier odd jobs with no dignity. One of the Hatfield year long pickets interviewed on the BBC documentary of Feb 2004 is now running a successful business in Milton Keynes, another is a landlord and I am happy for them but they would have rather won the strike and regret nothing.

As for the UDM it is an organisation I have no respect for and its existence is based on selfishness and corruption going back to 1977 and its members defiance of a ballot and a conference decision not to back an incentive scheme.

LinseyW, your Mum and Dad are heroes in my eyes, and obviously in yours too.
My post just now in no way criticises peeps like your parents. They were a victim of the NUM lunacy at the time.........

LinseyW, your Mum and Dad are heroes in my eyes, and obviously in yours too.
My post just now in no way criticises peeps like your parents. They were a victim of the NUM lunacy at the time.........

I wouldn't say heroes as such, they just did what they felt they had to. I was 13 & it was all weird to me but thank you, thats a nice thing to say x

One of the Hatfield year long pickets interviewed on the BBC documentary of Feb 2004 is now running a successful business in Milton Keynes, another is a landlord and I am happy for them but they would have rather won the strike and regret nothing.

As for the UDM it is an organisation I have no respect for and its existence is based on selfishness and corruption going back to 1977 and its members defiance of a ballot and a conference decision not to back an incentive scheme.

Hatfield is coming back shortly as a "clean coal" power station, with the coal mined from there so all wasn't lost. Ironic that Russians would be the majority holders but then they were responsible, with Poland, of making mining unprofitable back then.

There was a UDM official who lived, actually in that region and brought ind. diseases claims from ex-miners, who got £75 for every person he brought to claim for VWF/COPD and another diease i can't remember. Always wondered if they knew that? Not that it cost the ex-miners anything but no-one else wangled such a deal.

I have read the thread with interest.

Other than Mo, was anyone actually directly involved ?
I was. My Dad was a miner - until very recently actually. He worked at High Moor for many years until it was shut & then transferred to North Yorkshire.
The strike was bloody awful. No he didn't go to the picket lines, no he didn't go into work.
My Mum refused the food parcels and she worked 16 hour days to get us all through it.
It was horrible to see my Dad, his friends & our families go through it.
He couldn't go to work even if he wanted to. He saw what happened to the chap across the road when he went in. His house was trashed by fellow miners who painted the front of his house in 6 foot letters with the word 'SCAB'.

I was not involved.

Dicipline had to be maintained in what was going to be a long harsh battle due to the short sightedness of the scabs who lost their jobs despite promises to the contrary 8 years later anyway. It was a fight to the end with everything to lose. Any organisation involved in a battle e.g. an army punishes deserters who in this case were in the minority no matter what and yes there were votes but area votes that still made the same majority as a national vote would have. When people are suffering for a long period of time they are not going to allow all that to be for nothing and wring their hands saying I disagree with him going back but thats OK... of course there will be retribution.

Of the many TV and printed interviews with men who did picket the consensus is no regrets and they would do it again.

All I can say to that is there are thousands of cases, it was a dangerous industry and emphyesema lung disease has lead to early deaths, the idea that spending years in a dusty unstable environment would not have after efects is illogical.

I am glad that SOME miners did well after the strike, it gives me no pleasure to imagine them permanently destitute. Many, particularly those who were middle aged did not do well and have struggled ever since in healthier odd jobs with no dignity. One of the Hatfield year long pickets interviewed on the BBC documentary of Feb 2004 is now running a successful business in Milton Keynes, another is a landlord and I am happy for them but they would have rather won the strike and regret nothing.

As for the UDM it is an organisation I have no respect for and its existence is based on selfishness and corruption going back to 1977 and its members defiance of a ballot and a conference decision not to back an incentive scheme.

Of course mining is a dangerous and dirty industry. The miners at the sharp end of the coal face should be lauded and appreciated by all of us.

I would point out that many jobs in Steelmaking are equally hazardous and dirty....but they were consigned to the dustbin of history, like the miners were, by the competition from abroad. Unfortunately, the steelworkers involved were not favoured with the same package of benefits that the miners got, and are still getting. It is as if "the miners" are exceptional in their service to the nation, and there is a political "guilt" regarding the demise of the coal industry, and this "guilt" continues to this day.

Millions of workers have had to find other work due to economic factors....they don't have 1% of the political backing that the miners were afforded.

Anyway, I have had my say.

I hope we can remain friends on SF Dave. I mean you no discomfort at all.

It illustrates how different perceptions can be, and I respect your views expressed on this thread.

Millions of workers have had to find other work due to economic factors....they don't have 1% of the political backing that the miners were afforded.

Anyway, I have had my say.

I hope we can remain friends on SF Dave. I mean you no discomfort at all.

It illustrates how different perceptions can be, and I respect your views expressed on this thread.

Cheers, and I can only sympathise with steelworkers, thats a whole other subject I have studied but from what I can tell, Bill Sirs/ISTC did not have the same strength as Scargill/NUM.

In my job the worst I risk is a scratch from the photocopier I am ashamed to say.

Cheers, and I can only sympathise with steelworkers, thats a whole other subject I have studied from what I can tell, Bill Sirs/ISTC did not have the same strength as Scargill/NUM.

In my job the worst I risk is a scratch from the photocopier I am ashamed to say.

Dave, there is a lot of injustice in the Politico/Capitalist System.

Personally, I would rather lie down with a venomous snake than with some of the parasites who have governed us for so very very long. Like the Hydra, they have many heads, but only one body. That body is not designed to offer any comfort whatsoever to us ordinary mortals.

I personally don't envy the miners. I find it obscene that we have destroyed the very natural resource which, with investment in the new technologies of "Clean Burn" Coal, we would not have to be relying on foreign nations for our very existence.

We shall live to regret the short term political decisions to close down our major industries for a short term gain.

We will all be losers before long.

We shall live to regret the short term political decisions to close down our major industries for a short term gain.

We will all be losers before long.

The thing about mines is they never truly close. They are mothballed but can never be built over. Hence Hatfield closing years ago and is currently mothballed but will sprout to life very shortly. It has access to the vast majority of good quality coal available in the UK so it was never going to be destroyed.

Rossington in Doncaster will be mothballed but that is all, numerous other examples from the region pervade - so long as there is not any geographical reasons why they can't ever be mined again this is always the case.

Thorne colliery is a case in point, not mined since the 50s but always mothballed.

The thing about mines is they never truly close. They are mothballed but can never be built over. Hence Hatfield closing years ago and is currently mothballed but will sprout to life very shortly.

Rossington in Doncaster will be mothballed but that is all, numerous other examples from the region pervade - so long as there is not any geographical reasons why they can't ever be mined again this is always the case.


Some had concrete poured down them though.

I read about Hatfield, I thought the last shift was in 2004.

Some had concrete poured down them though.

I read about Hatfield, I thought the last shift was in 2004.

Yes, but like i've said Hatfield is going to find a new lease of life mining a "clean coal" power station. It was mothballed but Richard Budge has launched on the stockmarket with a Russian company as majority shareholders.

It has access to the best quality coal, far outreaching other mines, so it was never "put down".

As for other mines that closed, it had been in decline since the early 20th. Anyway, i'm not getting back into that - i've the full evidence in front of me that it was the right thing to do, not just locally but by the wealth created nationally because of brave decisions.

My memory is doing my art A -level mocks and using the subject as material.

I was going out with a 'injury retired miner' at the time and we lived at Brinsworth - I have memories of all the trouble and bad feeling. I later married a man from a small mining village, Creswell.

The miners strike holds a special place in my heart - and I can recommend a good dvd for people too young to remember - Brassed Off!

Sarah

I remember a couple of mine workers taking the **** out of my dad because he was made redundent from River Don.
I was 10 at the time and my dad had just got divorced and he had me, my brother and sister to look after. I'm a bit sketchy on details because I was young but I remember him trying to kill himself with some sleeping tablets and I woke him up after he had been asleep for about 36 hours.
He tried to have me and my sister put in care after that as he couldn't cope but those wonderful social workers at the time had hundreds of cases like ours to deal with and they didn't have the time or resources. He ended up going to the DSS offices on east bank road and locking us up in a room there on a Friday and telling us to wait until he came back.
We were found by a cleaner at about 9 pm that night who called a social worker who was supposed to be on duty. My sister and I were insistant that we should be taken into care ( i was 10 she was 7) but they said no so they took us back to woodhouse and I got the ****e kicked out of me. ( I've talked to him since and he said that in his twisted mind he thought that if abandoning your kids doesn't work kick the **** out of them until the social workers have to do something. They still didn't.
I was at school at Brunswick in woodhouse at the time and I did know a couple of people whos dads killed themselves. They grew up in a society where you did have a job for life and all your working career is based on doing that. Change and education wasn't an option. You did a job and thats what you did.
Anyway sorry for whinging about that chapter of my life but the point I think I'm trying to make is there were a fair few miners around in the late 70s and early 80's who used to take the **** and think they had a job for life and this country couldn't servive without british coal.
They were wrong and it happened to them.
By the time I was 13 or 14 I saw the same sort of stuff happening to the kids of coal workers as had happened to me and countless other kids in Sheffield when the steel works went.
I went to beaver hill school ( handsworth grange) during the strike and that's where I got my first real taste of politics.
I do hope that when Thatcher dies they build a massive grave because there's going to be a lot of people wanting to ****, **** and dance on it.

I remember a couple of mine workers taking the **** out of my dad because he was made redundent from River Don.
I do hope that when Thatcher dies they build a massive grave because there's going to be a lot of people wanting to ****, **** and dance on it.

I'm puzzled why anyone, miners of all people would want to take the p*** out of someone for losing their job.

Ironically a lot of the scabs were the 'lazy buggers' pi** takers who couldnt work hard enough once they werent supposed to, those with no dignity that were constantly threatened with the sack preceding the strike.

I saw something on the net that stated that the arrangements are to take some drink down to Trafalgar Sqauare for a party the first Saturday after Thatcher dies.

I remember a couple of mine workers taking the **** out of my dad because he was made redundent from River Don.
I was 10 at the time and my dad had just got divorced and he had me, my brother and sister to look after. I'm a bit sketchy on details because I was young but I remember him trying to kill himself with some sleeping tablets and I woke him up after he had been asleep for about 36 hours.
He tried to have me and my sister put in care after that as he couldn't cope but those wonderful social workers at the time had hundreds of cases like ours to deal with and they didn't have the time or resources. He ended up going to the DSS offices on east bank road and locking us up in a room there on a Friday and telling us to wait until he came back.
We were found by a cleaner at about 9 pm that night who called a social worker who was supposed to be on duty. My sister and I were insistant that we should be taken into care ( i was 10 she was 7) but they said no so they took us back to woodhouse and I got the ****e kicked out of me. ( I've talked to him since and he said that in his twisted mind he thought that if abandoning your kids doesn't work kick the **** out of them until the social workers have to do something. They still didn't.
I was at school at Brunswick in woodhouse at the time and I did know a couple of people whos dads killed themselves. They grew up in a society where you did have a job for life and all your working career is based on doing that. Change and education wasn't an option. You did a job and thats what you did.
Anyway sorry for whinging about that chapter of my life but the point I think I'm trying to make is there were a fair few miners around in the late 70s and early 80's who used to take the **** and think they had a job for life and this country couldn't servive without british coal.
They were wrong and it happened to them.
By the time I was 13 or 14 I saw the same sort of stuff happening to the kids of coal workers as had happened to me and countless other kids in Sheffield when the steel works went.
I went to beaver hill school ( handsworth grange) during the strike and that's where I got my first real taste of politics.
I do hope that when Thatcher dies they build a massive grave because there's going to be a lot of people wanting to ****, **** and dance on it.

Oh God, Carcrash, I am so, so very sorry to hear your story - I don't think there's anything adequate I can say :(

I think it's the emotional devastation wrought on families and their entire communities that is the true legacy of Thatcher, both now and at the time.

That was her legacy to this country - individuals damaged, their families damaged, their children's futures damaged, their communities damaged..... I would use the word 'destroyed' rather than 'damaged', but deliberately haven't - only because I believe in the strength of the human spirit, and to say 'destroyed' is to underestimate the power of the human spirit.

It was malicious, it was cruel, it was callous - the really unforgivable thing is that she obviously enjoyed, nay relished, doing it. Many of her decisions were taken out of sheer spite. And how dare she refer to a sizeable section of the population as "the enemy within".....

I am appalled to hear myself say this, but when Thatcher dies there will indeed be celebrating in the streets and good, decent people will be metaphorically dancing on her grave.

StarSparkle

I know I will. I just hope outlive the evil devil as she seems to be going on in her own words ' for ever and ever'

My memory is doing my art A -level mocks and using the subject as material.

My son too used the miner's strike in his university work in Australia. One of his lectures was on the Orgreave clash between ths police and the miners.
As at the time of the event he had lived only 10 mins away from Orgreave and had a brother who was on strike, he was able to give a personal account. It is indeed a small world.

hazel

I am surprised that Scargill has so far escaped much blame for the miners strike and its consequences. It is quite true that some posters have pointed out his faults, but these seem to have been submerged in the general feeding frenzy of hate directed against Thatcher.

It is clear that Scargill wanted to bring down the Tory government, using the miners as his weapon. The miners were pawns in his grandiose scheme to overturn a democratically elected government. He brought them out on strike without a ballot. He ignored the fact that Thatcher had already banned mass secondary picketing, thereby rendering this tactic illegal and ineffective. He failed to persuade the Nottingham miners to join the strike, thereby splitting the union in two.

I feel sorry for the miners, who were cruelly misled and misused by this deluded megalomaniac. Scargill's vision of democracy had more to do with the so-called 'People's Democracies' of Central ands Eastern Europe during the communist era and in almost every sense were at odds the the values of a liberal democracy. Thanks goodness he failed in his objectives, although as someone has already pointed out, he hardly suffered himself materially (unlike the poor miners, who were pied pipered into disaster by him).

What a shame they can't see that without her the country would have fallen apart in the eighties.

there's plenty of evidence to which one can refer in order to priase or criticise thatcher, but i'm afraid no one will ever know if the country would have fallen apart had she not been PM.

the comment about buying pints for coppers by the way is as sick as the comment (not by yourself) about them all dying of cancer. Despite the stength of feelings that (still) prevail when referring to this subject, both those comments are in IMO clearly out of line and i'm quite frnakly surprised that niether have been removed by moderators. I'm not exactly sure what criteria are used to remove comments, but c'mon mods!

Clearly, those with limited grasp of the international difficulties of the 80s

i assume you're not referring to the 'terrorist' Mandela or that lovely man Pinochet...yes, lovely woman Maggie...:hihi:

Sorry Doncastrian but your simply wrong. We consume 60million tonnes a year. Only 40% of this is produced in this country the rest is imported. So nice to know a porduct that is vital to the country is in the hands of a foreign body.

Yes coal was cheaper to import but should you import such a vital product if you can produce it yourself. Incidently once cheap easter Europen coal cornered the Europen market and we shut our pits the price increased 3 fold. The result is that the difference in buying in or producing is much smaller than we where ever told.

The truth is the whole thing was a political war and nothing to do will coal production or pricing.

[MOD NOTE] Please keep the personal abuse out of the thread before we have to send people to sit in the quiet corner and cool off - thankyou

I am surprised that Scargill has so far escaped much blame for the miners strike and its consequences. It is quite true that some posters have pointed out his faults, but these seem to have been submerged in the general feeding frenzy of hate directed against Thatcher.

It is clear that Scargill wanted to bring down the Tory government, using the miners as his weapon. The miners were pawns in his grandiose scheme to overturn a democratically elected government. He brought them out on strike without a ballot. He ignored the fact that Thatcher had already banned mass secondary picketing, thereby rendering this tactic illegal and ineffective. He failed to persuade the Nottingham miners to join the strike, thereby splitting the union in two.

I feel sorry for the miners, who were cruelly misled and misused by this deluded megalomaniac. Scargill's vision of democracy had more to do with the so-called 'People's Democracies' of Central ands Eastern Europe during the communist era and in almost every sense were at odds the the values of a liberal democracy. Thanks goodness he failed in his objectives, although as someone has already pointed out, he hardly suffered himself materially (unlike the poor miners, who were pied pipered into disaster by him).

Scargill did ballot 3 times for strike action against the decimation of an industry on which hundreds of thousands/whole regions depended and against the loss of hard won union rights. Those ballots were rejected, however come March 84 and the Cortonwood/20 pits announcement the rank and file struck themseles spontaneously and then went to the leadership for support. Cortonwood was also a moderate pit.

In 1977 there was a conference vote on whether to accept the governments divisive incentive scheme, the vote went against. Labour loyalist Gormley then put it to the individual ballot which again went against. Gormley/the government then decided to go ahead anyway so Scargill and the others agaisnt took them to Court and the Judge ruled that the vote result was unimportant in itself, a mere indicator and the incentive scheme went through in Nottinghamshire. Notts had big seams that equalled big money. The rest then followed. With this in mind its easier to understand why the ballot was contentious and why Notts ignored the majority. 8 years later Notts were also made redundant despite promises to the contrary.

Scargill had Stalinoid tendencies but was also voted in by 70%+ of the membership and the pay of the leadership had been established at conference for years. He also ensured that conference votes were followed as opposed to his Labour loyalist/Special Branch informer predecessor.

In terms of bringing the govenment down winning the strike would have halted the governments shutdown of the industry and retained the unions influence in society. It would not have forced Thatcher to abdicate and surely no one is suggesting Scargill intended a Guy Fawkes on parliament.

Originally Posted by LordChaverly
I feel sorry for the miners, who were cruelly misled and misused by this deluded megalomaniac. Scargill's vision of democracy had more to do with the so-called 'People's Democracies' of Central ands Eastern Europe during the communist era and in almost every sense were at odds the the values of a liberal democracy. Thanks goodness he failed in his objectives, although as someone has already pointed out, he hardly suffered himself materially (unlike the poor miners, who were pied pipered into disaster by him).

QUOTE=Dave72
In terms of bringing the govenment down winning the strike would have halted the governments shutdown of the industry and retained the unions influence in society. It would not have forced Thatcher to abdicate and surely no one is suggesting Scargill intended a Guy Fawkes on parliament.

I'm not sure if I'm reading this right - are you actually suggesting that the unions should have had an influence on society?
The Victorian workhouses ceased to exist quite a while ago, along with oppression of the 'poor workers'. Since then, with laws to ensure that individuals have rights (long before the EU human rights rubbish came into play) and with workers having the ability to report illegal employment practice, unions have had no purpose for a generation or two.
Except, that is, to foster lefty attitudes and have an unreasonable, unjustifiable and often irrational influence on their employers, who struggle to make a profit when wrongly subjected to pressures from employees who should be grateful for being paid to do a job.
I would sack employees on principle for striking, going slow or any other insubordinate or subversive action that could affect the success of the parent company.

Strikers bite the hand that feeds them and often, through their stupidity and greed, destroy their own livelihood through the damage they do to their employers. Do you really feel that they should have an influence on society ?

My god i can't believe dinosaurs like you still exist. I would guess you have employed people before and find workers rights just get in the way of profit. Unions have a place more now than ever. With the growth of huge multinational companys collective barganing is the only way many employees get to air there concerns. Without union activist working tirelessly equal pay for women, health and safety and parental leave would never have been addressed. The fact is that employer no matter how good they claim they are to shareholders would rather workers rights didn't exist. someone needs to stand up for the everyday Joe and it's best done by a union. You should be a shamed of youselve to even spout than nonsence.

My god i can't believe dinosaurs like you still exist. I would guess you have employed people before and find workers rights just get in the way of profit. Unions have a place more now than ever. With the growth of huge multinational companys collective barganing is the only way many employees get to air there concerns. Without union activist working tirelessly equal pay for women, health and safety and parental leave would never have been addressed. The fact is that employer no matter how good they claim they are to shareholders would rather workers rights didn't exist. someone needs to stand up for the everyday Joe and it's best done by a union. You should be a shamed of youselve to even spout than nonsence.

And I thought that such lefty blinkered idealism died with the sitcom ‘Citizen Smith’.

Firms cannot impose unsatisfactory conditions on employees now – they are constrained by laws which allow the tail to wag the dog far too much.

Employees should be glad of their wage and their job, and realise their place, which is to do a job in exchange for a wage. They took on the job and the wage, and of they no longer like it, they should look elsewhere.

Why should employers be inconvenienced, and lose profit, because of parental leave? Having kids should be the parents’ expense, not the company’s.

I am ashamed of nothing, but I am often disgusted by the ungrateful, thankless, grabbing attitude that the unions foment in the working classes.

Hardly worth a comment. That ridiculous 80s view died with the yuppie and the 80s.

Companies imposed unfair and bad practice all the time. Working hours changes, pension changes. Working hours directive opt outs in contracts.To think otherwise is either nieve or purposefully blinkered.

You should watch the Armstrongs, you probably think they are roll models.
Your "be glad for what you get" attitude would lead to sweatshops and child labour with people thinking they where lucky if they could afford to at.

Grow up. I hope your simply trying to be atagonistic. If you actually believe that twaddle then sadly impaired man in need of education or a few weeks in a factory on mimimum wage. I guess daddy would allow that though. It s the kind of retoric spouted by people who have never had to fight for there rights.

Hardly worth a comment. That ridiculous 80s view died with the yuppie and the 80s.

Companies imposed unfair and bad practice all the time. Working hours changes, pension changes. Working hours directive opt outs in contracts.To think otherwise is either nieve or purposefully blinkered.

You should watch the Armstrongs, you probably think they are roll models.
Your "be glad for what you get" attitude would lead to sweatshops and child labour with people thinking they where lucky if they could afford to at.

Grow up. I hope your simply trying to be atagonistic. If you actually believe that twaddle then sadly impaired man in need of education or a few weeks in a factory on mimimum wage. I guess daddy would allow that though. It s the kind of retoric spouted by people who have never had to fight for there rights.

For something hardly worth comment, you seem to have commented quite comprehensively.

You make a lot of assumptions. I don’t know what the Armstrongs is – I watch TV for news, films and documentaries but avoid the brain-sapping soaps and most of the rubbish that is broadcast.

As I said – quite clearly – there are regulations overflowing from the nanny state which prevent employers from putting unreasonable conditions on their workers, so a return to “sweatshops and child labour” is hardly on the cards. Much though I personally think it would be a great way of dealing with the work-shy benefit-dependent parasites that populate our council estates, I sadly have to accept that it’s just a pipe dream.

I’m not being antagonistic, but I do love the way that people can’t even listen to views that differ greatly from their own. I have worked in a factory on much less than minimum wage, and done other work on less than minimum wage before one was introduced, all when I was younger and studying. I’ve also been between jobs but kept it that way – I made sure I found another job pretty damned quick, even though it wasn’t exactly what I wanted. ‘Daddy’ is a working class man, a miner’s son, who himself worked long and hard in the steelworks so I regret that I cannot turn to him for financial assistance.

Low-skill jobs requiring low-calibre employees should command a wage commensurate with the value of that individual to the firm – there should be no minimum wage to damage industry and ruin our chances of competing in the international markets. Low-skilled workers should accept their lot, and understand that TV, DVD, satellite, nights out, cars, fashion clothes, fitted kitchens, new carpets and trendy trainers are luxuries which come to reward ability and effort. Those who have not striven to better themselves should realise that if they have a roof, heat, food and clothes they are surviving comfortably.

I have never ‘fought for my rights’, though I have written to my MP a couple of times, and I have seen legislation come through which I have found to be most inconvenient for me. As a member of this democracy, I have accepted it.
I have fought (literally) for other things, and lived for months at a time in other parts of the world in conditions that make our ‘poor hard done by workers’ look like kings, so I put things into a broader perspective than most people, with their limited (or zero) experience of the truly unpleasant corners of this world, are able.

And having seen and experienced real hardship, suffering and prejudice across the globe, I have no sympathy for the whining grabbing masses in this country who want more than they are worth, and are envious of those who achieve more.

Can't be bothered with you and this is nothing to do with the thread. Like many on this forum i will not enter into anymore dialogue with you, but then i guess that is a effect you are used to in life.

Can't be bothered with you and this is nothing to do with the thread. Like many on this forum i will not enter into anymore dialogue with you, but then i guess that is a effect you are used to in life.

I guess that means you can't come up with a sound argument to counter what I say?

Employees should be glad of their wage and their job, and realise their place, which is to do a job in exchange for a wage. They took on the job and the wage, and of they no longer like it, they should look elsewhere.

.bartfarst,i have agreed with you on many posts but sadly not on this one. the forelock tugging ,bowing and scraping went out after the first world war when the common man realised he had fought a war,not for the better of britain,but for the rich and powerful who live the good life and never get their own hands soiled, i have never have been a unionist but believe they do/did serve for the working mans benefit, for every pound an employer gives to a worker,the employer is making treble, its simbiotic( sp ?) one needs the other, but i and thousands more would never go cap in hand to an employer, a fair days pay for a fair days work is what i have always worked to, i have shown loyalty and been crapped on for it,on the other hand i have worked for nothing until the job got sorted out, mainly because i called my boss a friend,he also in return looked after my interests when things picked up

a fair days pay for a fair days work is what i have always worked to, i have shown loyalty and been crapped on for it,on the other hand i have worked for nothing until the job got sorted out, mainly because i called my boss a friend,he also in return looked after my interests when things picked up

And that's how I see it - a fair exchange, not a system whereby unions can control the company, devastate outputs through strikes and end up putting people out of work through the damage the industrial action does.

And that's how I see it - a fair exchange, not a system whereby unions can control the company, devastate outputs through strikes and end up putting people out of work through the damage the industrial action does.i see your point,if a man has built up a company and put his life into it,then i agree that it would be wrong for the union to run it,but there were times that unscrupolous employers were taking advantage, i have myself been asked if i was a union member when applying for jobs,one made it quite clear he would rather pay over the going rate for a worker who was not a union member,as a contractor i have been hounded by union reps in large companies such as british steel to produce a union card,even though my job had nothing to do with them, i have had electricians threaten to go on strike because we, thats two of us,did work in three days that took the company men ten days to do, but i would have refused to do it if these men had been threatened with the sack,not through unity,but through common decency

i see your point,if a man has built up a company and put his life into it,then i agree that it would be wrong for the union to run it,but there were times that unscrupolous employers were taking advantage, i have myself been asked if i was a union member when applying for jobs,one made it quite clear he would rather pay over the going rate for a worker who was not a union member,as a contractor i have been hounded by union reps in large companies such as british steel to produce a union card,even though my job had nothing to do with them, i have had electricians threaten to go on strike because we, thats two of us,did work in three days that took the company men ten days to do, but i would have refused to do it if these men had been threatened with the sack,not through unity,but through common decency
Exactly. If I believed that the laws didn't prevent employers from doing inappropriate things, I might support the continued need for unions, but that is long gone. The examples you quote are far from uncommon, especially when it comes to piece work and the way the unions mindlessly defend unreasonable output rates.

The example you quote of a 10 day job that can be done in 3 days. If that was your firm, with you struggling to make a profit, keep the bank from the door and pay your staff, but you knew that your electricians were stretching a 3 day job out to 10 days, would that be something you could tolerate? Should people take 10 days (and a lot of tea drinking and newspaper reading) to do a 3 day job when they can do it in 3?
I would have to say that by dragging a 3 day job out to 10 those men were effectively defrauding their employer every day they went into work, and I’m afraid that my hard line view is that they deserved the sack.

It's madness, but I've seen it myself many times, and I can remember as a teenager doing summer jobs being threatened by union reps because I was hand grinding big tamper bars and doing 12 in a day – working at a fair rate but not killing myself - when the rest of the team had been doing 6 or 8. I knew I was only there temporarily and didn’t mind being ostracised for working hard, and cared not a fig for the physical threats which would have been unwisely attempted, but it was an early lesson for me in the ‘British disease’.

I also had an uncle who did very well by his union on foundry work, when new equipment was introduced to massively speed up ingot production but the union negotiated on his behalf (and that of the other men in his section) to keep them on the same piece rate, with the result that the wages were nearly trebled and the new equipment the company had put in ended up actually increasing the overall production cost because of the union’s interference.

Sheer lunacy.

Exactly. If I believed that the laws didn't prevent employers from doing inappropriate things, I might support the continued need for unions, but that is long gone. The examples you quote are far from uncommon, especially when it comes to piece work and the way the unions mindlessly defend unreasonable output rates.

The example you quote of a 10 day job that can be done in 3 days. If that was your firm, with you struggling to make a profit, keep the bank from the door and pay your staff, but you knew that your electricians were stretching a 3 day job out to 10 days, would that be something you could tolerate? Should people take 10 days (and a lot of tea drinking and newspaper reading) to do a 3 day job when they can do it in 3?
I would have to say that by dragging a 3 day job out to 10 those men were effectively defrauding their employer every day they went into work, and I’m afraid that my hard line view is that they deserved the sack.

It's madness, but I've seen it myself many times, and I can remember as a teenager doing summer jobs being threatened by union reps because I was hand grinding big tamper bars and doing 12 in a day – working at a fair rate but not killing myself - when the rest of the team had been doing 6 or 8. I knew I was only there temporarily and didn’t mind being ostracised for working hard, and cared not a fig for the physical threats which would have been unwisely attempted, but it was an early lesson for me in the ‘British disease’.

I also had an uncle who did very well by his union on foundry work, when new equipment was introduced to massively speed up ingot production but the union negotiated on his behalf (and that of the other men in his section) to keep them on the same piece rate, with the result that the wages were nearly trebled and the new equipment the company had put in ended up actually increasing the overall production cost because of the union’s interference.

Sheer lunacy.looks like we agree on this bit,on a lighter note,i once new a companywhere the union rep went in for a pay rise for the workers,when he came back from lunch,the workers owed the company six pence an hour :hihi: and that is true.......

When I was a young man, probably about 20, I was working in a Metallurgical Laboratory doing Metallography within a large local steelworks. I was on shift working. I decided to join the one and only Union I ever had an association with in my life..... the Association of Scientific Workers (AScW). I think Clive Jenkins was the top man in the Union at that time.

The Metallurgical Laboratory was on the 1st Floor, the Chemistry Lab was on the Ground Floor.

I had been a Member of the Union only about 6 weeks, and the Shop Steward, working in the Chemistry Lab decided to require me to do something with which I could not accept, to do with work, of course, I forget all the details now but I know it was something which went against my conscience as an employee, still in training.

I offered the guy "outside" the Company premises for a "Scrap", although I have never been a violent person. Needless to say, he turned down the invitation.

I resigned from the AScW on the spot, and never contemplated joining one again............ In my view there were 2 wise decisions that evening...one was the Union Representative refusing the "Scrap", and the second was my decision never to join a Union again.