Chivalry... Am I Old Fashioned? [Archive]

SHsheff

30-11-2005, 20:23

Originally posted by fox20thc
Its not about age at all. Its about how you are brought up.

My boys respect women and behave as they should. Caught older one (10) having a massive row with a classmate last week because he was discussing how he was going to 'bang out' a girl in school.

Darling son told him only a coward hits a woman and if he did he would be dealt with severly. :D

Yup told my son the same. There was a girl in infants (he was only young!) with special needs and she was forever hitting him, and we had a talk that will hopefully stand him in good stead for life. Saying that (and I told him the same), girls shouldn't hit boys, because that's not fair either. It has to work both ways. Men should NEVER hit women. However, IMO, if a woman hits a man then she's crossing a line.....

In order to preserve 'good manners' and 'respect', it has to work both ways.

Crayfish

30-11-2005, 20:55

Think I'm more for equality... I tend to hold doors for people out of politeness regardless of their gender. Something about showy chivalry that somehow seems a bit false in some people, more aimed to show the world how gentlemanly they can be than because they actually care about the person they're doing it for - which sounds like exactly the case in cloudybay's case! Glad you're away from that one!

Good manners and respect should be between any two people - I don't really see it as a gender biased issue in this age of equality, not thoroughly convinced that there's a massive difference betwixt the sexes anyway!

fox20thc

30-11-2005, 20:57

Originally posted by erino
Appolo, I agree with everyone - you have all the nice manners a decent woman appreciates in a man - very special - my husband is just the same ahhhh :thumbsup:

:help: I WANT ONE !!!!:banana:

Ginger_Kitty

30-11-2005, 21:01

Alongside the chivalry etc tho goes polite manners...if someone holds a door open for you etc... a nice 'thankyou' should always follow!! ;)

SHsheff

30-11-2005, 21:03

Originally posted by em3978
Alongside the chicalry etc tho goes polite manners...if someone holds a door open for you etc... a nice 'thankyou' should always follow!! ;)

Of course. And a smile! :)

Pauly

30-11-2005, 21:05

I believe in chivalry. Opening doors, walking on the road side to protect from splashes and other things, taking the lady's coat, waiting for the lady to sit down first before sitting yourself, letting the lady order her food first. Ladies first is the main point I'm making I guess. I like to think that I do all these things and it makes me feel good to do it.

I held the door open for a group of three teenage girls the other day and let them go first and the look they gave me was one of confusion and almost ridicule. When they'd gone in I said, loud enough for them to hear, 'Oh you're welcome!'.

:roll:

fox20thc

30-11-2005, 21:05

And if they are really cute, their phone number :hihi:

Appolo

30-11-2005, 21:08

Originally posted by em3978
Alongside the chicalry etc tho goes polite manners...if someone holds a door open for you etc... a nice 'thankyou' should always follow!! ;)

good manners can be applied to either sex chivalry is all about treating the female as a lady and showing your respect for the same

sophiec1979

30-11-2005, 21:09

definately agree with em there.

i always give up my seat when im on the tram and there an older person (i mean has to look older than my mum) with no seat.

and i never, ever, ever, sit in the disabled/pregant/old persons seat either. i always glare at people who do and they dont give the seat up. ive told kids before to move for people- although that was on the bus i used to get at home everyday- not in sheffield, bit more risky here! lol

i hold doors open for people too, men, women (especially with buggies), in fact generally i always check if theres someone behind me. most people say thank you- those who dont, well, who cares, i know ive done the right thing.

and im a girl- can girls be chivalrous too or am i just too polite?

sophie
x

Appolo

30-11-2005, 21:11

Originally posted by Pauly
I believe in chivalry. Opening doors, walking on the road side to protect from splashes and other things, taking the lady's coat, waiting for the lady to sit down first before sitting yourself, letting the lady order her food first. Ladies first is the main point I'm making I guess. I like to think that I do all these things and it makes me feel good to do it.

I held the door open for a group of three teenage girls the other day and let them go first and the look they gave me was one of confusion and almost ridicule. When they'd gone in I said, loud enough for them to hear, 'Oh you're welcome!'.

:roll:

exactly you are just like me in respect of ladies first & the looks
when you try to behave like a gentleman

fox20thc

30-11-2005, 21:13

We are ladies, we like to do ladies things. Like be polite to strangers and hold open doors and... smile.

A lovely (lady) conductor on the tram saw I was having a mini crisis this afternoon and asked if she could help.

I had missed the tram home and was going to be late to collect my kids from school and my phone had just died.

Wonderful lady with no prompting offered me her phone to call the school. :) She saved my bacon and I will be writing to the company to praise her kindness.

Appolo

30-11-2005, 21:14

Originally posted by sophiec1979
definately agree with em there.

and im a girl- can girls be chivalrous too or am i just too polite?

sophie
x

you are a well mannered & polite young lady

prioryx

30-11-2005, 21:14

Originally posted by Pauly
I believe in chivalry. Opening doors, walking on the road side to protect from splashes and other things, taking the lady's coat, waiting for the lady to sit down first before sitting yourself, letting the lady order her food first. Ladies first is the main point I'm making I guess. I like to think that I do all these things and it makes me feel good to do it.

I held the door open for a group of three teenage girls the other day and let them go first and the look they gave me was one of confusion and almost ridicule. When they'd gone in I said, loud enough for them to hear, 'Oh you're welcome!'.

:roll:

Walking at the roadside of lady is Ok providing she is not obstructing your sword arm. Walking on the roadside in the dark endangers her being attacked from allyways.

That was the days when we were taught manners sword a bit rusty now

fox20thc

30-11-2005, 21:15

Originally posted by Pauly
I believe in chivalry. Opening doors, walking on the road side to protect from splashes and other things, taking the lady's coat, waiting for the lady to sit down first before sitting yourself, letting the lady order her food first. Ladies first is the main point I'm making I guess. I like to think that I do all these things and it makes me feel good to do it.

I held the door open for a group of three teenage girls the other day and let them go first and the look they gave me was one of confusion and almost ridicule. When they'd gone in I said, loud enough for them to hear, 'Oh you're welcome!'.

:roll:

Knowing young teenage girls today, any person who paid them such attention would probably (and wrongly) be labelled a perv.

You can't win. :(

Ginger_Kitty

30-11-2005, 21:16

Originally posted by SHsheff
Of course. And a smile! :)

did i not say that... ohh :( oopsy.. meant to... damn this wine... :blush:

Appolo

30-11-2005, 21:19

Originally posted by prioryx
Walking at the roadside of lady is Ok providing she is not obstructing your sword arm. Walking on the roadside in the dark endangers her being attacked from allyways.

That was the days when we were taught manners sword a bit rusty now

yes thats when men were men & women were proud of them

my wife says I should be Knighted Arise Sir Appolo

sorry she said I should be knotted :D

Pauly

30-11-2005, 23:03

Originally posted by fox20thc
Knowing young teenage girls today, any person who paid them such attention would probably (and wrongly) be labelled a perv.

You can't win. :(

Sad but sometimes true, unfortunately. :roll:

fox20thc

30-11-2005, 23:05

Originally posted by Pauly
Sad but sometimes true, unfortunately. :roll:

Sure nobody would mistake you for said strange person pauly :D

Pauly

30-11-2005, 23:06

As long as I give them a gentle smile and not a creepy, leering one. :D

Birth-Peace

01-12-2005, 07:09

I wouldn't say I was chivalrous at all to be honest... I do special things for my wife, but that's because I love her. I will hold open doors or let people through before me etc, but that's because I'm nice :). I won't go out of my way to favour one person over another just because she is a "lady". Does that mean lots of people will be nasty to me because I have this set of dangly bits and not the other??

To be totally honest I find some of the attitudes on here somewhat belittling and patronising, but you girls seem to enjoy the attention! ;)

*sigh* - typical, I actually posted this using my wife's account on her laptop... does that make me any more chivalrous?? :D

Bouncy

01-12-2005, 07:30

My husband is of the chivalrous type, won't let me walk next to the road, opens doors etc.
He treats me like a queen and says every woman should have her "cinderella moment".
Problem is, we have 2 daughters who are now old enough to date but assume all men are like their dad. They are gonna come down with a bug bump aren't they?

wardy

01-12-2005, 07:40

There are still some gentlemen about, eg. yesterday i got off the bus loaded with xmas shopping when this kind guy asked if i had far to go as my bags looked heavy ,and offered to carry them for me i could'nt believe it not many like that about . a true gent.:thumbsup:

willman

01-12-2005, 08:04

Originally posted by fox20thc
Knowing young teenage girls today, any person who paid them such attention would probably (and wrongly) be labelled a perv.

You can't win. :(

that i do agree with. ive stopped helping female motorists etc, just because of that type of response.
i do open doors,almost always pay when eating out regardless of who earns most.

so why am i about to get kicked into touch just before christmas.

fox20thc

01-12-2005, 08:16

I got in a lift the other day and there was a man already in it. He asked if I would like him to get out and wait for the next one :o

His reason being that some women wouldn't like to share a lift alone with a strange man.

Debk

01-12-2005, 08:26

And was he strange??

fox20thc

01-12-2005, 08:29

Originally posted by Debk
And was he strange??

No he was perfectly normal.

I just wondered what had happened that meant he was worried about being in a lift with me.

*Twinkle*

01-12-2005, 09:06

I notice chivalry and quite appreciate it too! It's a breath of fresh air from some of the rude, ill mannered men there are around these days!

I appreciate the opening of doors and ladies first principle... However I would think it a bit strange if it got to the extent whereby the fella got out of the car and opened my door for me... Especially if I was driving! (Keeping up appearences style) lol!

I regard some forms of chivalry as good manners and manners are incredibly sexy to me :wink:

timo

01-12-2005, 09:22

I endeavour to be chivalrous to all women. This does not equate to patronising the female sex, or regarding them as 'the weaker sex'. In my experience, most well-adjusted , intelligent women realise that chivalry is borne from my genuine respect and love for women. I utterly despise the oafs and louts for whom 'chivalry' means nothing, and unfortunately, they appear to be increasing in number. Perhaps the risible 'Lad Culture', with its emphasis upon instant gratification, selfish rudeness and 'me first' is a variable to consider in any debate about the decline in societal civility, particularly in the case of male-female relations?

As I said, most women seem to realise that chivalry is based upon respect and consideration. Indeed, there is much to respect and adore about the female sex. Fortunately, we appear to have passed the heyday of Radical Feminism, in which men were viewed as 'biological enemies' and 'patriarchal agents'; heterosexual sexual congress as 'phallocentric oppression'; and one risked accusations of 'mind-rape' and verbal castration for looking too long at a shapely, lissom female thigh. The Dungaree-clad, ideology-crazed, bearded madwomen are largely no more. Although, they can occasionally still be encountered in remote enclaves of the 'new Universities', as 'Module Leaders' of 'Gender Studies', pining for the pre-Postmodern days when they could blame 'Patriarchy' for everything, and their classes were full to the brim with embittered divorcees, Tofu-eating androgynes and stroppy, loutish Tomboys.

I salute the author of this thread. Chivalry and civility are essential for a happy society at ease with itself [forgive the reification]. The vast majority of women are wonderful, gorgeous creatures and they richly deserve our consideration and respect. Let us show it with chivalry in public and in private.

evildrneil

01-12-2005, 10:26

Chivalry, good manners and respect make the world a more pleasant place for everyone. I'll always hold the door for someone following - after all I don't want the door slammed in my face so I'm not gonna do it to anyone else!

In a country where the role models seem to be thugs, criminals and 'gangstas' a few more gentlemen and ladies is always a good thing :)

AtticusFinch

01-12-2005, 10:36

I agree with politeness, but I think chivalry is a throwback to a more chauvinistic age.

I dislike the idea that men are the stronger sex, and that women are frail little things that need looking after. I've got a lot of scorn for what I call the "1950's marriage", i.e. "you're my wife, you'll cook my dinner, clean my house, get my permission before you go out and you'll do what I say"

There's nothing wrong with being polite, but to me, opening a car door for a woman or giving them your coat implies that they're not capable of doing it themselves and they need your protection. I don't like the idea that in any relationship it's ultimately the man who is in control. I'm not in a relationship at the moment but if I was I'd want it to be with an independent woman who was my equal, not someone who was dependent on me to look after her.

fox20thc

01-12-2005, 10:39

Originally posted by Daley
I agree with politeness, but I think chivalry is a throwback to a more chauvinistic age.

I dislike the idea that men are the stronger sex, and that women are frail little things that need looking after. I've got a lot of scorn for what I call the "1950's marriage", i.e. "you're my wife, you'll cook my dinner, clean my house, get my permission before you go out and you'll do what I say"

There's nothing wrong with being polite, but to me, opening a car door for a woman or giving them your coat implies that they're not capable of doing it themselves and they need your protection. I don't like the idea that in any relationship it's ultimately the man who is in control. I'm not in a relationship at the moment but if I was I'd want it to be with an independent woman who was my equal, not someone who was dependent on me to look after her.

its not about control its about showing you give a damn. That you care. We may not take the coat but its nice to be offered.

*Twinkle*

01-12-2005, 12:55

A man who thinks before he acts, lets ladies go first etc is the kind of man that my Mummy wants me to take home to her lol! :blush:

As much of an independent, capable woman I am, I cant help but find certain acts of chivalry rather appealing about a man. Its the respect and thoughtfullness of it all. You've either got it or you havent and I think it has quite a bit to do with how you're brought up.
Its such a rare find, so for those of you who treat women in this way - I applaud you! :clap:

PM me if you ever fancy taking me out... ;) hehe

MTheo

01-12-2005, 13:02

Originally posted by Appolo
am I old fashioned?

I stand up on the bus & give my seat to a female or elderly person

I open the door for a female

I don't like to see a female drink from a pint pot

I walk with my wife & I always take the side nearest the road

I offer my coat to my wife if we are caught out in a shower

If we go out for a meal I always escort my wife to her chair &
sit her down
well i dont have a wife... so cant do some of them.

i stand up for women with small children on the bus

i hold door open for anyone thats coming (to a point..or i just become a door man)

that nearest the road things sounds really daft though haha.

and why have you got a coat and she hasent?... pah. poor planning.
:hihi:

Ollie

01-12-2005, 13:06

I dont think these actions are old fashioned at all.
Im only 25 (and staying at this age ...ok!!) and will always hold doors open, offer jackets etc... One thing i have noticed though is this......
When letting a female get served before you in a bar there is very rarely a "thankyou" involved!! Come on ladies, a bit of gratitude doesn't take much either! :thumbsup:

Appolo

01-12-2005, 15:30

Originally posted by Bouncy
My husband is of the chivalrous type, won't let me walk next to the road, opens doors etc.
He treats me like a queen and says every woman should have her "cinderella moment".
Problem is, we have 2 daughters who are now old enough to date but assume all men are like their dad. They are gonna come down with a bug bump aren't they?

they sure are:D

Appolo

01-12-2005, 15:32

Originally posted by wardy
There are still some gentlemen about, eg. yesterday i got off the bus loaded with xmas shopping when this kind guy asked if i had far to go as my bags looked heavy ,and offered to carry them for me i could'nt believe it not many like that about . a true gent.:thumbsup:

there are a few gents out there still

Appolo

01-12-2005, 15:35

Originally posted by caprice
I notice chivalry and quite appreciate it too! It's a breath of fresh air from some of the rude, ill mannered men there are around these days!

I regard some forms of chivalry as good manners and manners are incredibly sexy to me :wink:

manners are sexy to you well I never :D

Appolo

01-12-2005, 15:39

Originally posted by timo

I salute the author of this thread. Chivalry and civility are essential for a happy society at ease with itself [forgive the reification]. The vast majority of women are wonderful, gorgeous creatures and they richly deserve our consideration and respect. Let us show it with chivalry in public and in private.

thank you from one gent to another gent

Steve aka Appolo

Appolo

01-12-2005, 15:41

Originally posted by evildrneil

In a country where the role models seem to be thugs, criminals and 'gangstas' a few more gentlemen and ladies is always a good thing :)

I agree 100%

Appolo

01-12-2005, 15:52

Originally posted by MTheo

that nearest the road things sounds really daft though haha.

and why have you got a coat and she hasent?... pah. poor planning.
:hihi:

maybe but if I get splashed before my wife or girlfriend so be it

and the coat thing many a time the wife has gone out without
her coat only for the weather to change suddenly & I am wearing my jacket or holding it . If I don't feel the cold as much
as her I put it around her shoulders so what

Kthebean

01-12-2005, 16:03

Originally posted by Ollie

When letting a female get served before you in a bar there is very rarely a "thankyou" involved!! Come on ladies, a bit of gratitude doesn't take much either! :thumbsup:

Hang on this has happened to me loads of times when I've let people to the bar before me and not so much as a nod!

I agree with Daley - I think chivalry is outdated because it means men towards women - we should all hold doors open for each other and wave people across the road and stuff. Its manners and politeness that are important. For instance I would expect a man to help me lift something if I couldn't, simply out of human kindness, and I would help another woman or man lift something if they were having problems.

I also find manners incredibly important - I don't like men who don't say please and thank you.

If I was stupid enough to go out without a coat I would expect to be cold :confused: seems like common sense to me!

Fortunately, we appear to have passed the heyday of Radical Feminism, in which men were viewed as 'biological enemies' and 'patriarchal agents'; heterosexual sexual congress as 'phallocentric oppression'; and one risked accusations of 'mind-rape' and verbal castration for looking too long at a shapely, lissom female thigh. The Dungaree-clad, ideology-crazed, bearded madwomen are largely no more. Although, they can occasionally still be encountered in remote enclaves of the 'new Universities', as 'Module Leaders' of 'Gender Studies', pining for the pre-Postmodern days when they could blame 'Patriarchy' for everything, and their classes were full to the brim with embittered divorcees, Tofu-eating androgynes and stroppy, loutish Tomboys.

I find all this incredibly offensive and unnecessary timo. As for women as 'gorgeous creatures' - pfft.

rocketpig

01-12-2005, 16:06

Originally posted by Appolo
am I old fashioned?

I stand up on the bus & give my seat to a female or elderly person

I open the door for a female

I don't like to see a female drink from a pint pot

I walk with my wife & I always take the side nearest the road

I offer my coat to my wife if we are caught out in a shower

If we go out for a meal I always escort my wife to her chair &
sit her down

If i new how to do that hands in the air clappy smily face thing i'd have about 10 here for you appolo, agree with all this

.....and he didn't say that women shouldn't drink from a pint pot, he just doesn't like to see it, i don't either mate.

I don't like to see it either, but women are more than welcome do drink pints

Appolo

01-12-2005, 16:09

Originally posted by rocketpig
If i new how to do that hands in the air clappy smily face thing i'd have about 10 here for you appolo, agree with all this

.....and he didn't say that women shouldn't drink from a pint pot, he just doesn't like to see it, i don't either mate.

I don't like to see it either, but women are more than welcome do drink pints

thank you for your comments

Kthebean

01-12-2005, 16:09

I really don't understand it.

Surely its just a measure of ale?

What is there to not like? :confused:

rocketpig

01-12-2005, 16:13

Originally posted by kathythebean
I really don't understand it.

Surely its just a measure of ale?

What is there to not like? :confused:

you're right it is, i guess i just find it unattractive and its rather masculine, i can't explain it........same reason why i can't explain why i find stiletos on a women attractive, i know people say about the bum and tits out thing, but i really don't think it is that.......i just don't know

RichD

01-12-2005, 16:17

Originally posted by sophiec1979
and i never, ever, ever, sit in the disabled/pregant/old persons seat either. i always glare at people who do and they dont give the seat up.
Well you shouldn't.

My girlfriend looks about 18 despite being 24, and everybody thinks there can't be anything wrong with her because she's young, and gives her funny looks when she sits in a disabled seat. One woman even started kicking her ankle accidentally on purpose. The ankle she had sprained yet again after going over wrongly due to her badly twisted knee. She eventually had to say quite loudly, "Will you PLEASE stop kicking my ankle! It hurts enough already!"

Sometimes a young person needs a disabled seat despite there being nothing obviously visually wrong. People forget this too easily.

Appolo

01-12-2005, 16:19

Originally posted by kathythebean
I really don't understand it.

Surely its just a measure of ale?

What is there to not like? :confused:

this is just my opinion only & I am not knocking ladies who drink pints my wife can have as many drinks as she wants but not in a pint pot. blame my parents thats who bred this in to me.
they taught me manners & how to respect & take care of ladies

rocketpig

01-12-2005, 16:24

Originally posted by kathythebean
I really don't understand it.

Surely its just a measure of ale?

What is there to not like? :confused:

well i'm off to rugby training now,.......probably have a few halfs after with the lads, maybe even some babyshams!!!!!!

RichD

01-12-2005, 16:25

Sorry for going so far off topic with my last post - why don't I return to the discussion in hand? :)

I agree that we should all act in a polite and thoughtful manner. I hold doors open for anyone, I let people go before me regardless of gender, etc. I pour other people's drinks before my own. Although for some reason the offering of my coat in the cold I'll only do for women...

Appolo

01-12-2005, 16:27

Originally posted by RichD
Sorry for going so far off topic with my last post - why don't I return to the discussion in hand? :)

I agree that we should all act in a polite and thoughtful manner. I hold doors open for anyone, I let people go before me regardless of gender, etc. I pour other people's drinks before my own. Although for some reason the offering of my coat in the cold I'll only do for women...

then I say you are a gent as well

timo

01-12-2005, 16:33

Kathy,
I apologise if my jibes at Radical Feminism offended you. Normally we get on rather well, do we not? Nevertheless, Radical Feminism, in my view [as a 'patriarchal agent'] did more to damage the causes of the various other forms of feminism than so-called 'patriarchy'.

Consider, for example, Andrea Dworkin's view that all heterosexual sexual congress equates to rape, or Susan Brownmiller's infamous claim that, 'all men are potential rapists'. Whilst I genuinely do not wish to offend you, are not these 'perspectives' examples of absolutist anti-male prejudice? There are millions of women, never mind men , who would find such staggeringly ignorant and fatuous views equally 'offensive'?

unnamed

01-12-2005, 16:36

Originally posted by Appolo
am I old fashioned?

I stand up on the bus & give my seat to a female or elderly person

I open the door for a female

I don't like to see a female drink from a pint pot

I walk with my wife & I always take the side nearest the road

I offer my coat to my wife if we are caught out in a shower

If we go out for a meal I always escort my wife to her chair &
sit her down

i agree completely

apart from girls who drink pints are ace

....and erm, i don't mean your wife, obviously ;)

unnamed

01-12-2005, 16:37

actually, i don't.... i open doors for and would generally do those things for anyone i was with regardless of whether they were female or not

unnamed

01-12-2005, 16:40

even though that's horrendously bad english :D

Appolo

01-12-2005, 16:42

Originally posted by unnamed
actually, i don't.... i open doors for and would generally do those things for anyone i was with regardless of whether they were female or not

then you too have manners

rich951

01-12-2005, 16:48

Originally posted by Appolo
this is just my opinion only & I am not knocking ladies who drink pints my wife can have as many drinks as she wants but not in a pint pot. blame my parents thats who bred this in to me.
they taught me manners & how to respect & take care of ladies
So what you're saying is, it's because you were brought up like that, and you have no logical reason for thinking that way?

Appolo

01-12-2005, 16:59

Originally posted by rich951
So what you're saying is, it's because you were brought up like that, and you have no logical reason for thinking that way?

when you put your pants on do you do it the way you were taught or have you found some new way lol

manners are taught & sometimes even stick

I myself on my own of my own free will do not like to see a lady
drink from a pint pot like I said before I am not knocking any
lady who does

rich951

01-12-2005, 17:39

Originally posted by Appolo
when you put your pants on do you do it the way you were taught or have you found some new way lol
That's a little different. I can at least see that there is a reason for putting my legs through the holes in my pants, and I'm not just doing it for the sake of it - if you want to persist with the analogy, I actually put my socks on differently to the way I was taught, because I've outgrown it :)

I'm not particularly knocking any points of view, I'm just trying see exactly why people behave in certain ways. There are certainly worse crimes in this world than being nice to someone, after all! I only wondered if people did it purely because "that's what you do".

my wife can have as many drinks as she wants but not in a pint pot
That sounds a little beyond "do not like to see"...

Crayfish

01-12-2005, 18:09

Originally posted by unnamed

apart from girls who drink pints are ace

....and erm, i don't mean your wife, obviously ;)

What have you got against his wife? ;)

I'd do all those things for anyone regardless of their gender if I was in a relationship with them, and most of them just out of politeness if they were strangers - 'chivalry' may be positive sexism but it's still sexism. Equality all the way!

sophiec1979

01-12-2005, 18:21

Originally posted by RichD
Sometimes a young person needs a disabled seat despite there being nothing obviously visually wrong. People forget this too easily.

point taken rich- but there are also the times when they are just genuinely rude and selfish.

i would never go as far as kicking someone though! now that is just down right rude.

sophie
x

Kthebean

01-12-2005, 22:36

Originally posted by timo
Kathy,
I apologise if my jibes at Radical Feminism offended you. Normally we get on rather well, do we not? Nevertheless, Radical Feminism, in my view [as a 'patriarchal agent'] did more to damage the causes of the various other forms of feminism than so-called 'patriarchy'.

Consider, for example, Andrea Dworkin's view that all heterosexual sexual congress equates to rape, or Susan Brownmiller's infamous claim that, 'all men are potential rapists'. Whilst I genuinely do not wish to offend you, are not these 'perspectives' examples of absolutist anti-male prejudice? There are millions of women, never mind men , who would find such staggeringly ignorant and fatuous views equally 'offensive'?

When you put it like that, yes it's reasonable, and I have a lot of sympathy with your viewpoints. When you put it in terms of whether fellow academics shave their legs or not, or their dress sense, or what uni they teach at, its not on.

And yes, we do get on, so don't worry about it :) When I say 'offended' I don't mean I think you meant to offend me personally!

robbie

01-12-2005, 23:31

I'm a real gent I have to say.

I inist on walking female friends home

I open doors

I'm very polite.

I am quite old fashioned in this way.

never help :(

Kthebean

01-12-2005, 23:44

Ooops

Got that a bit wrong.

medusa

01-12-2005, 23:57

Originally posted by robbie
I'm a real gent I have to say.

I inist on walking female friends home

I open doors

I'm very polite.

I am quite old fashioned in this way.

never help :(

It's not old fashioned to be courteous and act in others' best interests.

It is, however, sadly becoming a minority position in this world. I know which I'd choose, and if people were given a simple choice (i.e be respected or be disrespected by others) then I'm sure everyone would choose the same option.

Irrelevant of gender, acting with respect towards others costs nothing except maybe a little time.

Andy78

02-12-2005, 00:07

Originally posted by medusa666
Irrelevant of gender, acting with respect towards others costs nothing except maybe a little time.

A very relevant point. (sorry I haven't had time to read the whole thread)

As Kathy said, with me it's simple courteousness. I will hold a door for anyone, I will let the person who was at the bar first get served first, I will walk anyone home. It's not gender specific.

Quite simply, the people I care about, I am kind to and look after. Gender is never a question. I think I am old fashioned in some ways, but only for the fact that I care about those around me. Something that seems to have become quite a rarity these days.

Angel05

02-12-2005, 08:39

I dont think there is anything quite like having a gentleman to make a girl feel special... :D

Being helped with my coat ...
Having my car door opened for me… whist he's already in the car... i like that! :)
Having the door held open whilst i walk through first...
Walking on the inside of the roadside whilst he takes the outta side…
Being let to sit down first…

Basically being treated how a woman should be treated... its a nice feeling ...
*warm fuzzy feeling! Washes over!*

But in return I like to make him feel special too… I'm a firm believer in equality… :D

rocketpig

02-12-2005, 08:48

why are people making this a gender issue?......its not at all

This thread is about how men act towards ladies, and gentlemen do all the gentlemanly things, and thats great.....and most women appreciate it which is great.

No one is sayng men aren't polite and well mannered to other men, of course GENTLEmen are........thats a totally different thing

RichD

02-12-2005, 09:36

Tell you what I could hardly believe when I saw it - my first brush with a radical feminist. My friend at uni held a door open for a female student so she could get in out of the rain quicker. Nice, polite, gentlemanly thing to do...

She tore seven shades out of him. "How dare you oppress me like that?! I am not some insignificant little girl who needs a big man like you to hold doors open for her!"

We just couldn't speak with the shock of it. We hold doors open for anyone, regardless of gender. It's politeness, thoughtfulness - and never did it enter our heads that this person was in any way inferior to us. I wish we'd been able to talk back to her, because with our dumbstruck silence she stormed off probably thinking she was entirely in the right to behave like that.

Angel05

02-12-2005, 10:14

Originally posted by rocketpig
why are people making this a gender issue?......its not at all

This thread is about how men act towards ladies, and gentlemen do all the gentlemanly things, and thats great.....and most women appreciate it which is great.

No one is sayng men aren't polite and well mannered to other men, of course GENTLEmen are........thats a totally different thing

Not all... as i said above...

Originally posted by Angel05

But in return I like to make him feel special too… I'm a firm believer in equality… :D

For me to be treated like a Princess... i like to treat my man like a Prince in return... *vomit* :gag: thats just me...

(sweet... but sickly lol) :hihi:

timo

02-12-2005, 10:30

Rich,
The thing is, that sort of behaviour is a rarity these days even on campus where one might expect to encounter it. I have only experienced a version of such tedious behaviour once, when a female ex-colleague grabbed hold of the door and rather smugly and theatrically turned the tables, opening the door for me instead in order to make some political point, her gimlet eyes gleaming . 'Thankyou, dear', I replied. For some reason this appeared to drive her to fury. I cannot imagine why.

climaxchick

02-12-2005, 10:43

Apollo, you sound like a true gent, there aren't enough men in the world like you!

Keep it up.

XX

robbie

02-12-2005, 11:28

Originally posted by RichD
Tell you what I could hardly believe when I saw it - my first brush with a radical feminist. My friend at uni held a door open for a female student so she could get in out of the rain quicker. Nice, polite, gentlemanly thing to do...

She tore seven shades out of him. "How dare you oppress me like that?! I am not some insignificant little girl who needs a big man like you to hold doors open for her!"

We just couldn't speak with the shock of it. We hold doors open for anyone, regardless of gender. It's politeness, thoughtfulness - and never did it enter our heads that this person was in any way inferior to us. I wish we'd been able to talk back to her, because with our dumbstruck silence she stormed off probably thinking she was entirely in the right to behave like that.
#
happened to me on more than one occasion. just told her where to go and slammed the door in her face. She soon shut up

Appolo

02-12-2005, 14:45

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robbie
I'm a real gent I have to say.

I inist on walking female friends home

I open doors

I'm very polite.

I am quite old fashioned in this way.

never help :( [/QUOTE

glad to hear it :thumbsup:

Appolo

02-12-2005, 14:50

Originally posted by Angel05
I dont think there is anything quite like having a gentleman to make a girl feel special... :D

Being helped with my coat ...
Having my car door opened for me… whist he's already in the car... i like that! :)
Having the door held open whilst i walk through first...
Walking on the inside of the roadside whilst he takes the outta side…
Being let to sit down first…

Basically being treated how a woman should be treated... its a nice feeling ...
*warm fuzzy feeling! Washes over!*

But in return I like to make him feel special too… I'm a firm believer in equality… :D

like that equality treat a woman special & she treats you special & why not:D

Appolo

02-12-2005, 14:53

Originally posted by climaxchick
Apollo, you sound like a true gent, there aren't enough men in the world like you!

Keep it up.

XX

thank you kind lady but there are many it's just finding them:D

StarSparkle

02-12-2005, 15:28

Originally posted by MTheo
i stand up for women with small children on the bus

i hold door open for anyone thats coming (to a point..or i just become a door man)

that nearest the road things sounds really daft though haha.

and why have you got a coat and she hasent?... pah. poor planning.
:hihi:

I think you're spot-on, MTheo! :thumbsup:

A lot of what's called 'chivalry' is just good manners to me - the way people should behave towards each other, generally showing respect, etc. I was brought up to always say 'please' and 'thank you' and hold doors open for people, regardless of who they are. I'll hold a door open for a big, burly bloke if he's the person following me through a door!

I do kind of expect the same consideration in return, and it irritates me when someone just lets a door slam in your face. Personally, I've found teenage girls/younger women to be the worst offenders here, whereas I've found young lads to be mostly thoughtful about door-holding.

Some aspects of 'chivalry' are really OTT in this day and age though, and do whiff a bit of patronising. eg pushing in a woman's chair at table, opening the car door for her, walking on the outside of the pavement. My Dad's a real old-fashioned gentleman, and it used to drive me nuts when I was a teenager and he always insisted on walking on the edge of the pavement. I was forever falling over his feet when we were walking along - every time we negotiated a corner or crossed the road, he'd be frantically trying to get between me and the traffic! Really sweet in a way, but I did find it a bit patronising.

However, and I admit I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here, I do appreciate old-fashioned chivalry when it comes to blokes giving up their seat on a bus for a female. :blush: Not many do it nowadays, and I think that's a shame. Mind, I really, really, REALLY hate standing on a bus, so I think that might just be a personal foible of mine!

StarSparkle :)

rich951

03-12-2005, 11:21

Originally posted by rocketpig
why are people making this a gender issue?......its not at all

Because it's about chivalry and that word appears in the thread title. Chivalry implies special treatment for women (sorry, "ladies").

Appolo

03-12-2005, 11:41

Chivalry
The word, "chivalry", comes from the French word, "chevalerie", which means "skills to handle a horse". The ability to handle a horse, especially in combat, was of utmost importance to a medieval knight. As the Middle Ages progressed, the term "chivalry" began to take on new meanings.

It was around the time of the preaching of the first crusade (1095 C.E.) that the Christianization of knights began in earnest. With the crusades as a "holy war" the pope needed the support of the nobles and knights of Europe to help him with his agenda of ridding Jerusalem of Islam, and returning the "land of Christ" to Christian sovereignty. By bestowing the title of Christian warriors to the knights, the pope had begun the evolution of a code of conduct that all knights were supposed to follow.

The protection of the poor, women and children, and defense of the church were just some of the chivalry codes that a knight was supposed to always obey. In combat when nobles and knights were taken prisoner, their lives were spared and were often held for ransom in somewhat comfortable surroundings. This same code of conduct did not apply to non-knights (archers, peasants, foot-soldiers, etc.), who were often slaughtered after capture.

However well intended this "chivalric code" was, it rarely affected most knights, who plundered, slaughtered, and looted often when given the chance. Our modern notion of knights is very much based in the ideas of chivalry, and it is the survival of medieval romantic writings that tend to show knights as the chivalrous ideal, that sways our view of medieval knighthood.

I know what chivalry is or was supposed to be I was just asking my fellow forummers am I old fashioned etc:rolleyes:

StarSparkle

03-12-2005, 12:02

Just to add a little to your post, Appolo :)

I remember reading somewhere that much impetus was given to the idea of a code of chivalrous behaviour by the 'patronage' of Eleanor of Aquitaine, while she was Queen of France. She and her ladies spent much time discussing the qualities their Ideal Knight would embody, and encouraged the knights of the French Court to adopt their ideas as their code of honour.

This was around the time of the Crusades, and fitted in with the spirit of the age - the idea of Christian knights going off to do battle in the Holy Land.

Not sure where that takes the debate, but thought it might be interesting.

StarSparkle

Appolo

03-12-2005, 14:32

The Code of Chivalry
From the Rifts: England Supplement
I'm pretty sure I got this list somewhere else, but I haven't found out where. Still, some reference is better than none, so thanks to Jeremy Treanor for giving me this one.

Live to serve King and Country.
Live to defend Crown and Country and all it holds dear.
Live one's life so that it is worthy of respect and honor.
Live for freedom, justice and all that is good.
Never attack an unarmed foe.
Never use a weapon on an opponent not equal to the attack.
Never attack from behind.
Avoid lying to your fellow man.
Avoid cheating.
Avoid torture.
Obey the law of king, country, and chivalry.
Administer justice.
Protect the innocent.
Exhibit self control.
Show respect to authority.
Respect women.
Exhibit Courage in word and deed.
Defend the weak and innocent.
Destroy evil in all of its monstrous forms.
Crush the monsters that steal our land and rob our people.
Fight with honor.
Avenge the wronged.
Never abandon a friend, ally, or noble cause.
Fight for the ideals of king, country, and chivalry.
Die with valor.
Always keep one's word of honor.
Always maintain one's principles.
Never betray a confidence or comrade.
Avoid deception.
Respect life and freedom.
Die with honor.
Exhibit manners.
Be polite and attentive.
Be respectful of host, women, and honor.
Loyalty to country, King, honor, freedom, and the code of chivalry.
Loyalty to one's friends and those who lay their trust in thee.

tara

03-12-2005, 15:33

Theres nothing wrong with gents having good manners but if its only done in public and not at home then its just a facade.

Also i believe that opening a door for a woman and things like this should not be done to make the gent feel good. the purpose is to make the woman feel good and know that someone is showing her consideration.

Unless the gents feel good factor is from the womans appreciation of this kind act eg if she were to give him a compliment on his good manners then it would be normal to feel good from that .

Appolo

03-12-2005, 15:53

Originally posted by tara
Theres nothing wrong with gents having good manners but if its only done in public and not at home then its just a facade.

Also i believe that opening a door for a woman and things like this should not be done to make the gent feel good. the purpose is to make the woman feel good and know that someone is showing her consideration.

Unless the gents feel good factor is from the womans appreciation of this kind act eg if she were to give him a compliment on his good manners then it would be normal to feel good from that .

good manners are there at all times private or public & Iv'e got
to agree if someone only displays manners in public that's is a facade but then again if anybody did that surely they they have not got any real good manners

parcher

03-12-2005, 16:03

Well done to all those who still know the value of manners. I was brought up in the same way, but taught that as women, we should also behave the same way. So, when my dad opens the car door to let me in first, I lean across and open his door.

Some time back, an evil looking punk with black make up and a huge spikey green mohican suddenly dodged in front of me as I was approaching a shop door. I was convinced I was about to be mugged, murdered or worse but was absolutely amazed when he pushed the door open for me, held it till I passed through and then left - he didn't even enter the shop. Later, as I was leaving, laden with bags, a small boy opened the same door for me. Mind you, the door was so heavy and the boy so little, I thought he was going to get himself flattened! And yes, I did smile and say thank you to them both!

Ms Macbeth

04-12-2005, 07:01

I'm really encouraged by the posts that so many people show good manners. The older I get the more convinced I am that there are only 2 types of people in the world:
Those who are considerate of others, well mannered and polite, and

The others!

i always give up my seat when im on the tram and there an older person (i mean has to look older than my mum) with no seat.
I stand up on the bus & give my seat to a female or elderly person

I would love to know on which routes? I'm almost 60, female, and I have stood up recently for a pregnant woman, and for an old man. On both occasions there were loads of people both male and female and much younger than me - obviously not SF members! A child gave me his seat on the tram the other morning on my way to work, (prompted by his mum) and I was gratefully surprised.

sophiec1979

04-12-2005, 09:13

Originally posted by Macbeth
I would love to know on which routes?

i mainly use the yellow tram route to get to work.

does that make me an 'other' as you quoted my reply? i realise theres a flaw in my selection process- youre older than my mum (only by a couple of years), but you might look younger than her!

if i havent stood up and let you have my seat in the past- i apologise.

sophie
x

Appolo

04-12-2005, 11:07

Matt MacMillan
Published Thursday February 8, 2001

A Lesson in Modern Chivalry and Gentlemen’s Etiquette

This column will cover the major aspects of living large, loving well and looking good. The true gentleman is a dying breed of man. They do exist, mind you; but in today’s everything’s-got-to-be-had-online-world, it’s just harder for them to come out. So hopefully, this will be a helpful guide for those chaps who always thought that living the life of Errol Flynn was actually romantic. If you don’t think that I have any business writing about it, don’t pay attention. I’m sure that the girls that you like don’t want to be treated right anyway. This is for those who want to appreciate the finer things in life, and for those who want to spend their life with someone who does too.

The key to living large is not fearlessness. It is not rare knowledge or even that elusive je ne sais quoi (though dropping in French phrases certainly does help).

To live large, you must connect with others while remaining true to yourself. It is finding that delicate balance between the old eye for an eye and having the confidence and security enough to know when to turn the other cheek. If you live large, you know that knowledge is power, but you’re acutely aware that "in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow." It means to go through life with a sense of purpose, but more than willing to accommodate despair. Living large is adopting a personal code and sticking to it. That code must not only be simple, but multidimensional as well.

Loving well: If you get this, you should be writing this column. But there are some helpful hints to help a gentleman in this most elusive of all games. The bottom line: feel her pain, touch her heart and yes, rub her feet.

This is the most important aspect of a gentleman’s life. A gentleman is truly a gentle man when his girl feels like a lady. The reason gentlemen are such a rare breed is found in the duality of a man’s nature. A gentleman is attuned to the needs of others and sometimes willing to subordinate his most basic desires and impulses in order to put others at ease. He is giving, generous and honest, except in cases where those attributes put a serious damper on sleeping with as many women as possible, because a gentleman is, after all, still a man no matter how gentle.

Most important of all is the fact that a true gentleman knows that the excruciatingly painful but sweet rituals of courtship and love are hopelessly simplistic and absolutely incapable of embracing the infinite number of thoughts and feelings, and actions that make us who we are. They require more - a card on file at the local flower shop, a romantic restaurant where the maitre d’ treats him like a regular, condoms. Unfortunately, society has bred a number of women who value shallowness over depth, and this saddens the gentleman. When it comes to matters of love, the gentleman knows that it’s not what you do, but why you do it. If one can’t answer the why, there is no point in trying to figure out the how.

The last part of this triad is looking good. Perception is more important than reality, and if a gentleman cannot convey that he is one, then he isn’t. It’s that simple. Al Pacino had that great line in Devil’s Advocate: "Vanity is my favorite sin." We are all in love with ourselves to some extent, and it’s the ones who exude the Polo commercial without looking like they do it on purpose are the ones who get the looks at parties. But there’s a reason why so many fashion and grooming "experts" earn enough money these days to sit at home in baggy shorts, sipping pineapple juice and telling the rest of us how to put on our pants and wash our faces. It’s because appearances mean everything. There is simply no substitute for good hygiene. Clip your nails. Wash your ears. Comb your hair. Believe me, women notice.

Finally, a gentleman knows when to buy his girl flowers, how to avoid gaffes in the sack, what wine to order and when to make the move.