What is peoples views on the IRA?

My own personal views on the IRA. They are basically all criminals who control there own Catholic people by fear. They run all the drug/crime in the Catholic population. An Irish mafia as such. There political wing - Sinn Fein are just made up of former terroist killers in Mcguinnes and Adams.
Both of these ran IRA paramilitary units in the 1970`s.

Why should anyone have to listen to them?
They hold 15% of the vote in the north and 10% in Eire.
a minority party of perhaps 200,000 voters in total.

how can a party of 200,000 voters in general elections hold so much say without terroism to back it up.
It simply cannot.

BUSH had the chance to end the IRA weapons decommisioning the other week. All he had to do was say he demands the IRA disarm and will run a propaganda campaign in America telling and showing the true brutallity of there freedom struggle in the USA. Killing babies with bombs/crucifying people who do not obey there wishes/torture/crime/their Libya and Columbian terroist training.

Adams would have been forced to disarm. Bush suprisingly said nothing to him, and so this week the IRA basically told the govt they are not disarming.

The IRA are not romantic freedom fighters as portrayed. They recruit children to throw stones at armed British soldiers. In Israel 500 children have been shot and killed throwing stones in the last 2 years. As far as I am aware 0 have been killed in Northern Ireland, but the IRA would certainly love it to happen.

Currently there are 3 IRA members on trial in Columbia , who have been training the Columbian terroists how to fight guerilla warfare and make bombs. One of these men who also was based in Cuba, has been very closely linked to Gerry Adams.

The Punishment beatings used by the IRA are just a way to leave it all to themselves.

The IRA are heavily involved in criminal activity outside of there struggle.
I try to look at 2 different Irish newspapers every week.
the Irish independent a serious rag is heavily anti IRA. The meath chronicle - very similair. The Sunday World is an anti British paper but is still neutral towards the IRA.

The south of Ireland is happy with the status quo and does not want things to be changed.
I would like to see the UN send a peacekeeping force in to control security and British army pull out.

I also think those stupid orange marches should be stopped completley.
They commerate a battle which was won in 1688
315 years ago!!

The Irish see historical Americans as great ambassadors for there country and hype them. They also often quote anyone in the news with an Irish background. but suprisingly Ireland`s media is one of the most anti American vitreole in Europe.
Ireland loves Europe, because that is where its prosperity has come from.

freedom fighters fighting an oppressive regime who now seem to have got their sights on the sand!

Originally posted by "Internetowl"

freedom fighters fighting an oppressive regime who now seem to have got their sights on the sand!

Your not a contributor are you?

why?

for the record I'm not.

Originally posted by "Internetowl"

why?

for the record I'm not.

Well, I would have been surprised if you were a contributor to the IRA or splinter groups. If you did still support by funds the IRA out of loyalty of your irish heritage, your loyalty would have been misplaced and would not be appreciated by 85% of the whole population north and south of Eire and Northern Ireland.

Is fund Raising still allowed?

The troubles in northern Ireland originate from centuries ago, no one can solve these problems overnight or indeed over years. Successive British governments have tried using force without any result but have been met with equal force in the form of terrorism. Not only killing the soldiers but also innocent men women and children.

These people are murdering thugs, I have said for many years that when they were caught, should have been killed instead of locking them up to be freed and carry on at a later date. And before anyone starts bleating about human rights, what about the human rights of the victims of the I.R.A.killers?


A lot of people in the U.S.A have something to answer for
as they have been funding these these thugs for years which makes them just as bad, also Adams & Macguinness should be banned from touring America specifically to raise funds for the Irish killers.

equally the 'loyalists' who have been at it too? But then I suppose they are exempt due to the fact they were getting support from the Security Forces and the UK government it seems?

Nothing, anyone involved first hand in the troubles didn't know anyway

The Northern Bank job in Belfast. Did they do it?
Why?
was it for arms?
was it for drugs?
or was it to pay into the retirement fund?

Lickszz, I mostly agree with your appraisal. The IRA are merely criminals trading on a past ideal (thiers, not mine).

Internetowl, you obviously prefer Ireland to Britain, why not move to Eire and give us all a break.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Lickszz, I mostly agree with your appraisal. The IRA are merely criminals trading on a past ideal (thiers, not mine).

Internetowl, you obviously prefer Ireland to Britain, why not move to Eire and give us all a break.
That`s a little strong isn`t it?

What is wrong with having an opinion?

So I suppose the British Government does not have illegal blood on its`s hands then?

As for Ireland, it is much quieter thar it has been for a ling time, and from what I gather, the population seem much happier because battles are being fought more in offices now!

I heard that Mc Donalds contribute 1p in every pound to the IRA, is this true or not?.
If it is not true i might take my son, he is 13 and never been yet.

Why would Mc donalds contribute 1% of their takings to the IRA.
I have read some stupid stuff on here over the last year but that is in the top 5.

Internet Owl,
I wonder if you could look the parents of a young man I knew in my youth in the eye, and justify his murder as the work of "freedom fighters" engaged in conflict with "an oppressive regime"? I remember a kind, older boy who always had time for my callow questions, who loaned me his Led Zeppelin albums. Now, he lies under the clay and the prospect of a "united" Ireland is no nearer than it ever was.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Internetowl, you obviously prefer Ireland to Britain, why not move to Eire and give us all a break.

Internetowl makes a good point - you can't lay all the responsibility for the troubles at the door of the IRA. The hatred between the two sides is too well-engrained for such a simplistic assessment to hold water.

For me, all the talk of decommissioning is a red herring too. As far as I know, weapons caches of illegal armies don't tend to be audited particularly rigourously, so how can anyone know whether the IRA really has "laid down its arms", no matter how many guns are encased in concrete? For the likes of Paisley it just functions as a symbol of surrender, and I just can't see it happening.

Originally posted by carcrash
Why would Mc donalds contribute 1% of their takings to the IRA.
I have read some stupid stuff on here over the last year but that is in the top 5.

I think this was a rumour that was mainly in circulation during the late 80s. Not true, of course.

How many of you have been to Ireland, North or South and seen first hand the work of the "freedom fighters" not just the I.R.A. but both sides. I have been many times and have made some wonderful friends Catholic & Protestant, yet I still can't even begin to scratch the surface of why they still insist on continuing the armed struggle. So come on who has been and seen it first hand.

One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

It's a complicated problem, but in my opinion it becomes terrorism when you start targetting civilians and the IRA crossed that line a long time ago.

The situation does seem, on the surface, to be insoluble. Victory for one side means despair for the other. Despite growing support for Sein Fein in the South, I do not believe there is any enthusiasm for a Republic incorporating the North. The major issue of the sheer cost, which the Republic could not possibly afford, of running the North looms large. What do the Provos, Real IRA etc intend for the Protestant population? Will they be hounded out like so many Southern Protestants were in the early part of the 20th Century? I do not think the UFF etc would allow that!

Even if the seemingly impossible happened, and Britain gave up all claim to Northern Ireland, the likelihood is that conflict would escalate on THIS side of the water, never mind in Antrim and Armagh. The strong feelings of the descendants of Irish Protestants in Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow would be violently expressed. Perhaps successive British governments have already realised this, and prefer to keep the majority of the conflict on the other side of the water?

Greenback makes a cogent point [as he so often does] re the deeply entrenched nature of the "troubles". The politics of ethnic identity in Northern Ireland are very complicated, and I do not believe the majority of English, Welsh and Scots really understand the ancient, irremediable grudges between the communities. Both communities are intimately involved in the violence- in terms of support for "their side", in terms of supplying safe houses, getaway cars etc, etc. Whenever there is an atrocity, the familiar phrases roll about how "most people" in the area "get on fine" etc. It is always a case of "outsiders" or "a minority". How hollow it sounds.

Republicans may very well, eventually, get a version of what they desire- an end to British ties. However, I think it may come about through the ballot box. Eventually, there will be a referendum on the issue, and the majority are likely to vote for what they naively think would be an "end" to the whole business- complete withdrawal. So many English people appear to see the Protestant community of Northern Ireland as "Irish" rather than British, and they are heartily sick of the cost , in terms of blood and money, of running the place. I have, ironically, heard Irish Republicans curse "British Ulster", but admit that they "need" the British state to pay their benefits. Food for thought? Personally, I hope Ulster remains part of Britain, as long as the majority desire so...

Originally posted by venger
That`s a little strong isn`t it?

What is wrong with having an opinion?

So I suppose the British Government does not have illegal blood on its`s hands then?

As for Ireland, it is much quieter thar it has been for a ling time, and from what I gather, the population seem much happier because battles are being fought more in offices now!
a) Is it strong ?

b) It's my opinion, what's wrong with me having one ?

c) More than likely it does (name me a government that doesn't)

d) Politically NI is quieter, as in openly sponsored violence is much quieter, but the general criminal violence from all the criminals (regardless of which side they purported to support previously) has not quitened down at all.

Eire is also a lovely country, with great people, it's just I choose to live here, and not slag off my home.

Why would Mc donalds contribute 1% of their takings to the IRA. I have read some stupid stuff on here but that has to come in the top 5
Thank you for that carcrash but if you hear rumours it is nice to clear them up one way or another even if it means being as abrupt as you. I also heard the same rumour about Meadowhall.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Internetowl, you obviously prefer Ireland to Britain, why not move to Eire and give us all a break.
That is not an opinion my friend, quite clearly a criticism :loopy:

Many US citizens openly support the IRA, but is it not quite difficult to find a terrorist organisation which is not part funded by North America?

Originally posted by Lickszz
What is peoples views on the IRA?

My own personal views on the IRA. They are basically all criminals who control there own Catholic people by fear. They run all the drug/crime in the Catholic population. An Irish mafia as such. There political wing - Sinn Fein are just made up of former terroist killers in Mcguinnes and Adams.
Both of these ran IRA paramilitary units in the 1970`s.

Why should anyone have to listen to them?
They hold 15% of the vote in the north and 10% in Eire.
a minority party of perhaps 200,000 voters in total.

how can a party of 200,000 voters in general elections hold so much say without terroism to back it up.
It simply cannot.

BUSH had the chance to end the IRA weapons decommisioning the other week. All he had to do was say he demands the IRA disarm and will run a propaganda campaign in America telling and showing the true brutallity of there freedom struggle in the USA. Killing babies with bombs/crucifying people who do not obey there wishes/torture/crime/their Libya and Columbian terroist training.

Adams would have been forced to disarm. Bush suprisingly said nothing to him, and so this week the IRA basically told the govt they are not disarming.

The IRA are not romantic freedom fighters as portrayed. They recruit children to throw stones at armed British soldiers. In Israel 500 children have been shot and killed throwing stones in the last 2 years. As far as I am aware 0 have been killed in Northern Ireland, but the IRA would certainly love it to happen.

Currently there are 3 IRA members on trial in Columbia , who have been training the Columbian terroists how to fight guerilla warfare and make bombs. One of these men who also was based in Cuba, has been very closely linked to Gerry Adams.

The Punishment beatings used by the IRA are just a way to leave it all to themselves.

The IRA are heavily involved in criminal activity outside of there struggle.
I try to look at 2 different Irish newspapers every week.
the Irish independent a serious rag is heavily anti IRA. The meath chronicle - very similair. The Sunday World is an anti British paper but is still neutral towards the IRA.

The south of Ireland is happy with the status quo and does not want things to be changed.
I would like to see the UN send a peacekeeping force in to control security and British army pull out.

I also think those stupid orange marches should be stopped completley.
They commerate a battle which was won in 1688
315 years ago!!

The Irish see historical Americans as great ambassadors for there country and hype them. They also often quote anyone in the news with an Irish background. but suprisingly Ireland`s media is one of the most anti American vitreole in Europe.
Ireland loves Europe, because that is where its prosperity has come from. Hi mate I for one will not shed a tear
when an IRA guy gets slotted by the Lads from the SAS.

As for them in the Gov if think Fony tony has gone mad
wasnt Mcguinnes the F**ker that kicked off bloody sunday.

Originally posted by venger
That is not an opinion my friend, quite clearly a criticism :loopy:

...and my opinion is that people who obviously prefer somewhere else should live there, rather than bleet on about what's wrong with here.

:loopy::loopy::loopy:

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Lickszz, I mostly agree with your appraisal. The IRA are merely criminals trading on a past ideal (thiers, not mine).

Internetowl, you obviously prefer Ireland to Britain, why not move to Eire and give us all a break.

maybe she just has her eyes open a little bit more and isn't blinkered into a stereotypical and uneducated view.

Resorting to petty insults is generally a sign that someone isn't smart enough to argue the point.

Originally posted by Cyclone
maybe she just has her eyes open a little bit more and isn't blinkered into a stereotypical and uneducated view.

Resorting to petty insults is generally a sign that someone isn't smart enough to argue the point.
"Generally" that could indeed be the case.

So, is insulting someones inteligence a petty insult or not ?

Originally posted by foo_fighter
"Generally" that could indeed be the case.

So, is insulting someones inteligence a petty insult or not ?
As you pointed out it was a generalisation.

What is your problem?

The `Peace Process` bring it on!

Originally posted by venger
What is your problem?

Are you seriously making out that I haven't been clear enough about my opinion on this matter ?

Try reading back a bit.

They are the scum of the earth who spent 30 years tryiny to kill us in the UK.

I think every member of the IRA should be hung drawn and quartered.

I honestly didn't know the IRA was still at it over there, don't here much about them any more, last i heard was a treaty pack of some sort, but i think i heard that a few years ago too, there not in your papers much at all.

I'm afraid I have to join the 'one mans terrorist... bla bla' band. I think that maybe if I had grown up under those conditions I would feel the same way. I don't happen to support any group that uses violence to further a political cause, though.

On a similar note, I found it slightly Ironic that on Saint Patrick's day in New York (Dunno about other places, the only other place I've heard of this is San Francisco) it is possible to see people collecting money for the IRA, and many American's, including those with no Irish background, giving money over to a terrorist organisation... I wonder if this still happens post 9/11?

Originally posted by Snook
I'm afraid I have to join the 'one mans terrorist... bla bla' band. I think that maybe if I had grown up under those conditions I would feel the same way. I don't happen to support any group that uses violence to further a political cause, though.

On a similar note, I found it slightly Ironic that on Saint Patrick's day in New York (Dunno about other places, the only other place I've heard of this is San Francisco) it is possible to see people collecting money for the IRA, and many American's, including those with no Irish background, giving money over to a terrorist organisation... I wonder if this still happens post 9/11?

St Pats day in NY is a big joke for starters, i know they have a lot of IRA supporters there and give money, so we hear, never seen it done out in the open though, must be plenty of "Sleepers" over here.

Originally posted by poppins
St Pats day in NY is a big joke for starters, i know they have a lot of IRA supporters there and give money, so we hear, never seen it done out in the open though, must be plenty of "Sleepers" over here.

Yeah, they have a lot of support there... or they did, it'd be interesting to find out if that has changed since 9/11. I've seen people collecting money in the St Pat's parrade, with a large Irish flag held at the corners with IRA across it that people were throwing money on. The people carring it were shouting 'support the IRA, get the British out', or something similar. Very shocking to see and hear, and to see people throwing money on.

I know that the FBI have investigated many American businesses for funding the IRA as well. Which made it hard for me to believe it when George Bush said that he was going to go after the countries that fund terrorism. :)

The only way this is going to be solved is through democracy. Sinn Fein are starting to take over from the SDLP and gaining more votes. As much as people dislike it they are a policical party, democraticaly elected
The population ratio is shifting and at some point in the next 20 years the catholics will be the majority in Northern Ireland. The vote on wether Ireland should reunite will be interesting.

Speaking as someone who was born and spent the first 18 years of my life in Northern Ireland I can vouch for the complexity of the problem. It goes back many many years and is has two main stems....political and religious. I count myself fortunate to be the offspring of a mixed marriage (father was catholic and mother was church of england) so my sisters and myself were brought up to respect all opinions and beliefs and not to try to force our own beliefs upon others. Sadly, during the 50's and 60's this ethos was in the minority. It is important, however to appreciatre that there are terrorist groups activities (and associated fund raising) on both sides of the divide. In addition, these terrorise groups are now sub-divided into hard line and moderate fractions. Over the last few years there has been a lot of community based projects specifically designed to bring the younger generation of both sides of the community together, and many of these projects have been extremely successful. There is hope for the future, but like others have said, success will come in drips and over a long period of time. I truly hope that the younger generation will be able to show the elders the historical errors of their ways and put in place the necessary foundation stones for a peaceful and coherent state. As for myself, I have read the history books and watched the documentaries and I believe that successive British governments made many mistakes and errors of judgement in relation to the Irish question (going back over 300 years). But that is only one element of a history which I am proud to be associated with. I moved to England in 1967 and spent 22 years in the RAF. I still live and work here in the public sector and class Yorkshire as my home.

I lived in Ireland for four years while I was growing up, and the lands are beautiful. However the sectarianism of the country still prospers to this day. Neighbour against neighbour - it's so outdated. I was four when we moved there and the first question we were asked was, "Are you Catholic or Protestant?" How is a four year old supposed to answer that question? We were neither: mum had her own ideas and ideals. However, it didn't stop the ideals of the kids in the community or their attempts to brainwash us.

I thank God that we moved back to England while I still had a lot to learn.

I don't regret the time I spent in Ireland, but the prejudice over there can certainly be lived without.

Originally posted by Lickszz
What is peoples views on the IRA?

Terrorists that mascarade themselves as freedom fighters.

Your childrens children will still be holding the same peace talks when they are old men. There are no problems with the IRA itself at this time. But, Ian Paisley for the DUP is the biggest foul mouthed politician on gods earth. There are many that will not draw a line under the past. It is hard to do so. But, The history of Ireland shown many abuses by the british soldiers and land lords of that time. One needs to look at the full picture to come to any educated conclusion. There is also another point to take into consideration. After the Good Friday Agreements were signed, There were those that would not agree to this. They left the Provisional IRA and formed their own group. They call themselves the real IRA. These are made up mainly of criminals and dregs from the IRA. I am one of many that wants to see peace work. But I am also one of many that sees both sides of the coin. Yes there are still some that abuse the Protestants every chance they get. But more recently. Last year. The protestants were attacking children going to school. Because the entrance to the school was adjacent to Catholic territory as they claim. These kids were attacked with broken bottles even a nail bomb was thrown at them. I could come up with many examples from both sides of the arguement. But. The only examples I want to see now are those of peace. reconcilliation, and foregiveness. Well many politicians and certain military figures do not want this. But given time... Maybe the next generation of leaders will make peace......Peace for all.

Hang all of them pure and simple,all terorists who deserve to get the death penalty.
Ulster for the british.

Originally posted by poppins
St Pats day in NY is a big joke for starters, i know they have a lot of IRA supporters there and give money, so we hear, never seen it done out in the open though, must be plenty of "Sleepers" over here.

Go and get your IRA t-shirt here at noraid - http://www.inac.org/homefront/product_info.php?products_id=69&osCsid=728e900818af8abc4744b41d583d19a1

what do I think of them? one word answer - murderers

I served in NI for 2 years, had several colleagues killed, 1 right in front of me. I was very lucky myself on a couple of occasions to scrape through.
The IRA are thugs. Period. They are NOT freedom fighters. Freedom fighters don't oppress their own people into supporting them. Freedom fighters do not sell drugs to their own children to fund their "war". Freedom fighters do not thrown pipe bombs at children going to school to achieve their aims.
The loyalists are no better, and to suggest the security forces "colluded" with them is ashamedly correct. But this was mostly done out of survival - the loyalists did not spend the vast proportion of their time trying to kills us. The IRA did. As we were tied by rules of engagement to deal with IRA, alternative means were needed.

If this disgusts you - tough. Try walking around your friends killers with a gun you can't use for a few weeks.

Kilauia

I too have served in NI. I am now 58 yrs old. If you knew anything about the IRA The provisional IRA, Then you would know that they have never ever dealt with drugs etc. You seem to know very little about Ireland. We in Ireland had more problems with the UDA. and other organisations. We were there as peace keepers, But we turned into an occupying force. To say that the IRA are dealers in drugs etc is playing with fire. But, I agree with your comment about the thuggery. I have seen people with broken knee caps. But I have also seen British Soldiers enter homes and rape young women. You need to read up on Ireland and the reasons for the troubles before making comments. Maybe you should surf the web there are lots to choose from. Car crime was cut down in the Falls Road area, Muggings cut down in that area, Burglaries cut down in that area etc. Why ?? Because when the IRA caught anyone doing this they taught them a lesson. People used to report crime to the IRA instead of the Police. They knew something would be done. There are rights and wrongs on both sides of the arguement. Who are we to judge.

Originally posted by Rodgers
I too have served in NI. I am now 58 yrs old. If you knew anything about the IRA The provisional IRA, Then you would know that they have never ever dealt with drugs etc. You seem to know very little about Ireland. We in Ireland had more problems with the UDA. and other organisations. We were there as peace keepers, But we turned into an occupying force. To say that the IRA are dealers in drugs etc is playing with fire. But, I agree with your comment about the thuggery. I have seen people with broken knee caps. But I have also seen British Soldiers enter homes and rape young women. You need to read up on Ireland and the reasons for the troubles before making comments. Maybe you should surf the web there are lots to choose from. Car crime was cut down in the Falls Road area, Muggings cut down in that area, Burglaries cut down in that area etc. Why ?? Because when the IRA caught anyone doing this they taught them a lesson. People used to report crime to the IRA instead of the Police. They knew something would be done. There are rights and wrongs on both sides of the arguement. Who are we to judge.
This whole post reeks of fabrication, and before you suggest it, yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Rodgers
Kilauia

I too have served in NI. I am now 58 yrs old. If you knew anything about the IRA The provisional IRA, Then you would know that they have never ever dealt with drugs etc. You seem to know very little about Ireland. We in Ireland had more problems with the UDA. and other organisations. We were there as peace keepers, But we turned into an occupying force. To say that the IRA are dealers in drugs etc is playing with fire. But, I agree with your comment about the thuggery. I have seen people with broken knee caps. But I have also seen British Soldiers enter homes and rape young women. You need to read up on Ireland and the reasons for the troubles before making comments. Maybe you should surf the web there are lots to choose from. Car crime was cut down in the Falls Road area, Muggings cut down in that area, Burglaries cut down in that area etc. Why ?? Because when the IRA caught anyone doing this they taught them a lesson. People used to report crime to the IRA instead of the Police. They knew something would be done. There are rights and wrongs on both sides of the arguement. Who are we to judge.

If your 58 years old then when exactly did you serve in NI?
Times change. The IRA controlled most of the drug trade in NI by the late 80's.
Sounds like you were there in 58 pattern webbing and gaitors - if as has been suggested you were ever there at all.
And as for me reading up on the subject - I am very well versed on the entire history of the troubles and unlike you, very well versed on its recent problems too.

Kilauia

Just as we were saying on another thread .. there are those that cannot hold a decent forum without insulting etc. I was in Ireland in 1967. And by god we went through it. I do not know how old you are, But, Insult for insult. Get some education about a subject before you contribute with insults.

Originally posted by Rodgers
Kilauia

Just as we were saying on another thread .. there are those that cannot hold a decent forum without insulting etc. I was in Ireland in 1967. And by god we went through it. I do not know how old you are, But, Insult for insult. Get some education about a subject before you contribute with insults.

I'm sorry but your assertion that I need educating on a subject I know a great deal about is insulting.
You should know if you served there - you throw stones - they get thrown back.
And you can not get away from the fact that what you think you know about the subject is clearly well outdated.

Don't get me wrong, you have my respect for serving there - anyone who did does as it was difficult - but your "facts" and debating method are both deeply flawed.

I'm a supporter of the IRA - I consider them brave freedom fighters. Guy fawkes is a hero in my house not a terrorist. He is a symbol of catholic persecution that has been rife in this country for years.

I believe that the terrorist activity (even though it destroyed my home city of mancester) brought about the changes we have to day. Many people are a hell of a lot freer because of this - it unfortunate but people have to die in the cause of freedom. But it is no different that people should die to liberate europe from the Nazis. So many had to die to liberate and democratise a whole nation of people.

Sometimes killing is justified if the cause is big enough. :thumbsup:

xxxx xx xxxxxx xxx xx xxxxx xxx xxxxx

Originally posted by miniminch
I'm a supporter of the IRA - I consider them brave freedom fighters. Guy fawkes is a hero in my house not a terrorist. He is a symbol of catholic persecution that has been rife in this country for years.

I believe that the terrorist activity (even though it destroyed my home city of mancester) brought about the changes we have to day. Many people are a hell of a lot freer because of this - it unfortunate but people have to die in the cause of freedom. But it is no different that people should die to liberate europe from the Nazis. So many had to die to liberate and democratise a whole nation of people.

Sometimes killing is justified if the cause is big enough. :thumbsup: The IRA are a bunch of wingnuts, and not, as perhaps they would like to think of themsleves, a brave guerilla army. Any guerilla army that has to resort to shredding civilians in the park, with nailbombs has lost the plot.

That sort of thing is, without any question whatsoever, a act of terrorism - not a military operation.

And the al-Aqsa martyrs brigade make the IRA look like the bunch of pussies they really are - brave? Cowardly custard with a remote control more like. Brave? How is planting a bomb and running away brave?

As for Guy Fawkes - he was a dupe. A stupid dupe at that - nothing to celebrate there. That he could be stupid enough to fall for a government entrapment plot (probably) to round up dissidents and blow up parliament speaks volumes. Stupid person fails to blow up parliament by a very wide margin, gets executed for being stupid - big deal. Hardly someone to hero worship.

People are generally not compelled to die in the cause of freedom, because that rather defeats the object of the exercise. People must choose to risk their life for freedom. It must be a choice.

Immolating non-combatants without their consent, and indeed without any notice whatsoever, cannot be considered a self sacrifice for freedom, as your support for the IRA seems to suggest.

You have clouded your reasoning with romantic dogma about criminal murderers.

You say that sometimes killing is justified if the cause is big enough. Can you explain that statement? Given a 'large' cause when is killing justifiable?

or conversely - when killing is justified, what other factors apart from the 'size' of the cause play a role?

or even - How do you measure the size of a cause, in order that you can sometimes justify killing people in order to further it?

What on earth do you mean by it - it is hopelessly non-commital and indefinite.

Sometimes genocide is justified if the cause is big enough perhaps?

The biggest threat to our country is the Government itself. OOPS I will be under house arrest within the next few hours, tagged at least.

We are becoming a Police State. What this Government are doing will not stop terrorism. What this Government are doing is provocative.. Maybe Guy Fawkes was right. Maybe at that time people were becoming afraid of what is happening to this country now. We are making ourselves a target by our actions. If we were to deport all those that are considered a risk, All those that have conned their way into the country. All those that are trying and succeeding to manipulate the young muslims. Then we may have a chance. The Government have become the enemy. OOPS well at least there will be many of us that disagree with this Government. I won't be the only one tagged and under house arrest. OK so Manchester was devastated. It recovered well. It found a place in history. Sad but true. People sat up and thought for themselves. People started to ask intelligent questions. This also proves that we are an easy target. But no-one learns by this. Maybe it will not be the IRA next time. It will be a larger deadlier force. A force that is already here, A force that entered the country so easy it was laughable. Hoe many feel they are being laughed at by some of these asylum seekers. How many of us have been harrased by them in the City Centre. Well folks. I reckon very soon we shall have our own 9/11 to contend with. Maybe the Government want this. Then we will have an excuse to join Bush in an attack on Iran this time.

HI phan........Just like to make a comparison of the IRA and The ANC in South Africa.

I have family that were blown up by a limpet mine that was put in a Diner (Wimpy) In Johannesburg By the ANC.

Yet the British government classed them as freedom fighters and even supported them in their quest.
Sanlam Centre.....is a small shopping mall in a place called Amanzimatoti.....I used to live there and eat at the Golden egg Diner. one day a bomb went off killing many..including the bomber.
It could have been me having my lunch there when this occured....

Still! England supported the ANC.

What I am saying is that the IRA and other organisations like it are nothing more than terrorists and should be treated as so...However!.......Are the IRA not another mans freedom fighter??

Kilauia

It is unfortunate that forums are an anonimous way to debate. But, Likewise you know nothing of me fortunately. I have spent lots of time in Ireland. I regularly go to Galway. I am also well respected by lots of people on both sides of the devide. I have had dinner with many prominant people there. I love Ireland it's people regardless of religion. There are those that would believe what they read in the press. There are those that are just ignorant and do not want peace. I for one am for a united Ireland. Britain only occupy the very small corner just as a principal. Were you to go to Dublin. There is a place that you can study facts. There is a book that contains atrocities commited by British Forces during the potato famine. Yes This is history. We can find the same in Germany and India. Africa. We leave scars and filth where-ever we go. OK this is all history. So is the IRA now. I mean the Provisional IRA not the breakaway group that calls themselves the real IRA. If you were to slander the real IRA then I wouyld support you. But there will never be real peace in Ireland till the occupation ends

Originally posted by Rodgers
Were you to go to Dublin. There is a place that you can study facts. There is a book that contains atrocities commited by British Forces during the potato famine. Yes This is history. We can find the same in Germany and India. Africa. We leave scars and filth where-ever we go. OK this is all history.
...and this inability to let go of the past is part of the problem.

Quoting incidents and facts like this can be used against any state, France, Belgium, Germany, what the US did in the Philippines, etc. etc.

Do you suggest that we hold modern Egypt accountable for the actions of the Pharoes, or Greece (Macedonia) accountable for the atrocities of Alexander ?

Indeed when the British Gov't were subjugating the Irish many atrocities were carried out on the mainland, and more recently miners and agricultural workers were massacred in the streets, but of course, who do we point the finger at, ourselves, of course not.

Let the ancient history go, don't forget, but let it go.

The option is to perpetuate the troubles forever.

That is what I was saying Foo. There are those that are dwelling on the past far too much. There are rights and wrongs on all sides in Ireland. But at the end of the day, The British still occupy Ireland. I say remove the troops and give peace a chance. After Ian Paisley has been got rid of. 0f course

Originally posted by Delboy3
HI phan........Just like to make a comparison of the IRA and The ANC in South Africa.

I have family that were blown up by a limpet mine that was put in a Diner (Wimpy) In Johannesburg By the ANC.

Yet the British government classed them as freedom fighters and even supported them in their quest.
Sanlam Centre.....is a small shopping mall in a place called Amanzimatoti.....I used to live there and eat at the Golden egg Diner. one day a bomb went off killing many..including the bomber.
It could have been me having my lunch there when this occured....

Still! England supported the ANC.

What I am saying is that the IRA and other organisations like it are nothing more than terrorists and should be treated as so...However!.......Are the IRA not another mans freedom fighter??

I'm not saying they didn't - but how did the british govermant support the ANC?

Originally posted by Rodgers
Kilauia

It is unfortunate that forums are an anonimous way to debate. But, Likewise you know nothing of me fortunately. I have spent lots of time in Ireland. I regularly go to Galway. I am also well respected by lots of people on both sides of the devide. I have had dinner with many prominant people there. I love Ireland it's people regardless of religion. There are those that would believe what they read in the press. There are those that are just ignorant and do not want peace. I for one am for a united Ireland. Britain only occupy the very small corner just as a principal. Were you to go to Dublin. There is a place that you can study facts. There is a book that contains atrocities commited by British Forces during the potato famine. Yes This is history. We can find the same in Germany and India. Africa. We leave scars and filth where-ever we go. OK this is all history. So is the IRA now. I mean the Provisional IRA not the breakaway group that calls themselves the real IRA. If you were to slander the real IRA then I wouyld support you. But there will never be real peace in Ireland till the occupation ends

I'm not quite sure what who you choose to dine with has to do with the price of fish? But hey, hope it was tasty!
I love Ireland as it happens. I visit dublin frequently and have good friends there. I also have close friends from Derry - who are catholic btw.
None of this makes the IRA in any form some kind of benign force. And you can split the IRA as many times as you want - PIRA, RIRA - keep going through INLA, IPLO too if you wish, and you can throw in the UDA, UDF, RHC while your at it. They are all just a gang of thugs. I don't remember having too many stand up fights with them out there - beause as has been mentioned they are cowards and have absolutly no wish to "die for the cause" as they suggest. Just to perpetuate it so they can continue in their business of drug dealing, rustling, smuggling, extortion, robberies (banks if you like), thuggery etc etc.

And I am sure that book in dublin is a totally factual account of the events that allegedly happened - the irish are good for a story! I'm not denying that things didn't happen mind.
Perhaps we should open a book here listing the attrocities commited by the IRA? I think we will find the death toll many times that what the british have caused and that's before we start on those injured, lossed limbs or simply businesses by their indiscriminate rampages.

I have no wish to monopolize this forum with a slanging match with someone that has no idea what they are talking about. Are you by any way related to Ian Paisley. If there were many such as yourselves involved in peace talks then we shall never have peace. It is easy to see that you have never had the experience of being involved in a terrorist action. You know very little about Ireland if anything. I could put many examples of crime by both sides on this forum but this would not be allowed. It would mean naming people. But, I can assure you, I know of many drug dealers. Many petty crims, That have been knee capped for their crimes. Try not to listen to too much propoganda and search for facts. I shall withdraw from this thread now that you have decided that you wish to have a slanging match and prefer not to enter into a reasonable discussion. A pity though you may have learned something... But I enjoy being on this Forum. I enjoy the debates. But what I do not do is get personal

Originally posted by Rodgers
I have no wish to monopolize this forum with a slanging match with someone that has no idea what they are talking about. Are you by any way related to Ian Paisley. If there were many such as yourselves involved in peace talks then we shall never have peace. It is easy to see that you have never had the experience of being involved in a terrorist action. You know very little about Ireland if anything. I could put many examples of crime by both sides on this forum but this would not be allowed. It would mean naming people. But, I can assure you, I know of many drug dealers. Many petty crims, That have been knee capped for their crimes. Try not to listen to too much propoganda and search for facts. I shall withdraw from this thread now that you have decided that you wish to have a slanging match and prefer not to enter into a reasonable discussion. A pity though you may have learned something... But I enjoy being on this Forum. I enjoy the debates. But what I do not do is get personal

If you bothered yourself to read the threads you would see I have indeed been involved in terrorist action on numerous occasions.
It's best you do withdraw if you can't even follow a debate properly. That and the fact you are quickly emerging as some kind of walter mitty character who dines with the irish aristocracy and associates with drug dealers and terrorists.....Purlease!!!

Originally posted by Delboy3
HI phan........Just like to make a comparison of the IRA and The ANC in South Africa.

I have family that were blown up by a limpet mine that was put in a Diner (Wimpy) In Johannesburg By the ANC.

Yet the British government classed them as freedom fighters and even supported them in their quest.
Sanlam Centre.....is a small shopping mall in a place called Amanzimatoti.....I used to live there and eat at the Golden egg Diner. one day a bomb went off killing many..including the bomber.
It could have been me having my lunch there when this occured....

Still! England supported the ANC.

What I am saying is that the IRA and other organisations like it are nothing more than terrorists and should be treated as so...However!.......Are the IRA not another mans freedom fighter??

I may be wrong, but didn't good old Maggie brand Nelson Mandela a terrorist?

But the duality of freedom fighter vs terrorist point is well taken. Of course one man's freedom fighters are another's terrorist. The Chechen terrorists for example. But if you have to resort to blowing people up, either suicidally or otherwise, then you are playing a losers game with the lives of largely blamless people. Most religious or secular morals/ethics/cultural mores tell us this is wrong, whatever your grievances.

All killing, in this manner especially, is performed by low life murdering scum, and commanded by low life cowardly murdering scum. Whatever cause they fight for.

But people are not born low life murdering scum, they are made into disgusting and worthless life squandering subhumans by their parents, and their government, and their schools and temples and churches.

They are brought up in lives filled with hate and retribution, and frequently insane racial and religious rhetoric too. They are nurtured in the ethical vacuum of living in a violent, illiberal and militarised society.

Freedom fighters and terrorists can go to hell. They are almost as bad as the men and women serving the state and demanding the terrorism of societies for political gain. I am thinking particularly about South America, but where war=money, the greedy go in, regardless of race, nationality or creed.

So I do agree with you, but lastly I would say that a comparison between the IRA and the ANC is very difficult purely because the provisional IRA's raison d'etre is to be an armed fighting unit. With the political stuff taken care of by another 'separate' entity.

The ANC was all that rolled into one. and then some, but I will defer to your experience of the ANC

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
if you have to resort to blowing people up, either suicidally or otherwise, then you are playing a losers game with the lives of largely blamless people. Most religious or secular morals/ethics/cultural mores tell us this is wrong, whatever your grievances.

All killing, in this manner especially, is performed by low life murdering scum, and commanded by low life cowardly murdering scum. Whatever cause they fight for.



By your logic Phan then we must brand all those who fought against germany and liberated us from the tyranny of nazism between 1939 - 1945 as mudering scum. And to think we honour and give medals to such people?

There are causes worth killing for phan and if you are honest you know your argument here, holds little water. If a million innocent germans had to die to free europe from this human apocalypes that loomed over the horizon, then they had given themselves for this noble cause in my book. They are not muderers or scum who fought their way to the heart of this emipire of hate.

And as for calling someone a 'pussy' for planting bombs and then running.....? Well the alternative was to meet the british military in a field. You have to remember that the objective was liberation not certain death. You have to fight within your means. Although, many fought and lost their lives with little more than stones..... Many faced their death with bottles in their hands - demonised by the press and surrounded by military hardware. Brutality worked both ways....

If you ocupied my street and set up check points and searched my family then you could expect the same threat from my family. Something worth fighting for...something worth dying for ..... and something worth killing for.........

Freedom for people is a cause that in worthy of any lengths...

Guerrilla warfare works.

I never believed in attacking innocent people. But, Who are innocent, What do we do when faced with children with guns and grenades. The IRA made many mistakes during thier time in action. They should have targetted Government buildings, Power Stations, Gas Stations , Police Stations, Court Houses. All easy targets and still are. It is sad that people have to fight in this way. But when faced with a trained army, Then that is the only way to do it. Innocent people do get hurt. Too many in some cases. We should target the leaders regardless what type of war we are fighting. I do not believe in blowing up people for their beliefs, But I would for their actions. We have the right to believe in what we wish to believe in. But we do not have the rights to force our beliefs on others. Take Iraq. People that have never known true democracy, I doubt if ever they will. But they are willing to die for it. These are brave people. Not like the one's that are trying to stop them getting democracy. But, Do we have the right to interfere, If so, Then why have we not attacked certain other countries in Africa.

Originally posted by royjames
Hang all of them pure and simple,all terorists who deserve to get the death penalty.
Ulster for the british. without bieng sarcastic roy ,but arent we british" imigrants "in ireland, there were very few until delacy and strongbow invaded ireland in 1171 a.d.then of course theres the issue of the dictator cromwell and his genocide of the indiginous people. but thats another topic that im almost sure, some one will bring up at a later date.

All these arguments are absurd. We are talking about an organisation called the IRA (provo's if you like) that exist today as an illeagal army straddling two countries and not wanted in either by the respective goverments or their people.

You can bang on all day about freedom fighters and history lessons, that does not justify support for this organisation and its well documented criminal activities.

And minimich - the "occupation" of ulster has never been about denying the people there of their freedom. A force has exisited out there to protect one part of the population from the other (first the catholics and later the proddies) and more recently to protect the RUC while it tries to maintain order there. Frankly I abore the fact that I lost mates to babysit a population full of violent bigots.

Here is a fact that you IRA sympathisers who know sod all about the reality of the place won't know - the RUC were unable to police large sections of the province from the early eighties onwards because of attacks against them. The army's role from pretty much then was to protect the RUC so they could police the country. While I was there the RUC would not patrol many areas without there being at least 2 supporting army teams on the ground. And they had good reason - I saw a police woman have her legs blown off as she sat in a police car in Newry one night.

So pull the army out eh? And how do you think the place would get policed? By the provo's? The UDA? The biggest criminal gangs operating on british soil!!? It would be anarchy with both sides blowing **** out of each other.

How romantic.

Originally posted by kilauea
All these arguments are absurd. We are talking about an organisation called the IRA (provo's if you like) that exist today as an illeagal army straddling two countries and not wanted in either by the respective goverments or their people.

You can bang on all day about freedom fighters and history lessons, that does not justify support for this organisation and its well documented criminal activities.

And minimich - the "occupation" of ulster has never been about denying the people there of their freedom. A force has exisited out there to protect one part of the population from the other (first the catholics and later the proddies) and more recently to protect the RUC while it tries to maintain order there. Frankly I abore the fact that I lost mates to babysit a population full of violent bigots.

Here is a fact that you IRA sympathisers who know sod all about the reality of the place won't know - the RUC were unable to police large sections of the province from the early eighties onwards because of attacks against them. The army's role from pretty much then was to protect the RUC so they could police the country. While I was there the RUC would not patrol many areas without there being at least 2 supporting army teams on the ground. And they had good reason - I saw a police woman have her legs blown off as she sat in a police car in Newry one night.

So pull the army out eh? And how do you think the place would get policed? By the provo's? The UDA? The biggest criminal gangs operating on british soil!!? It would be anarchy with both sides blowing **** out of each other.

How romantic. very true,but then dont you agree that the british government wont leave as its the finest anti terrorist training ground for our troops,which makes them the best in the world at this sort of work,and i believe the government arent exactly innocent as they have been working with loyalist some of the time to keep the situation volotile.

Originally posted by kilauea
All these arguments are absurd. We are talking about an organisation called the IRA (provo's if you like) that exist today as an illeagal army straddling two countries and not wanted in either by the respective goverments or their people...
...the "occupation" of ulster has never been about denying the people there of their freedom. A force has exisited out there to protect one part of the population from the other (first the catholics and later the proddies) and more recently to protect the RUC while it tries to maintain order there.
Spot on.

C'mon all you history students, you know it's true.

Oh, and MM, why are you living here under such an oppressive regime, why not move to Eire, Spain or the US or where-ever, if it’s so bad in the UK ?

Originally posted by depoix
very true,but then dont you agree that the british government wont leave as its the finest anti terrorist training ground for our troops,which makes them the best in the world at this sort of work,and i believe the government arent exactly innocent as they have been working with loyalist some of the time to keep the situation volotile.

I'm really not sure about that. The cost of having soldiers in NI is enourmous. We seem to train for all other types of conflict without "sustaining" one also. You are right though, we have done a much better job in Iraq (than say the US) because of our experiences in NI.
I don't believe the colusion with the loyalist gangs actualy goes to goverment itself. Not that I deny it happened between the military and the paramilitaries. However, what is less widely reported is the collusion between our Irish counterparts and the provo's. I mean think about it - huge underground arms dumps in a country that size they can't find them?? If they were in the north or the mainland they would be found and emptied in a weekend.

Originally posted by miniminch
By your logic Phan then we must brand all those who fought against germany and liberated us from the tyranny of nazism between 1939 - 1945 as mudering scum. And to think we honour and give medals to such people?

Granted. Let me rephrase my original reply to Derek for you -
Killing, in this manner

There are causes worth killing for phan and if you are honest you know your argument here, holds little water.

There are causes worth dying for - plenty of those. What cause is worth killing for, with the possible exception of world overpopulation? Killing people for freedom? Screwing for Chastity? Fighting a war for peace? The ends do not ever justify the means.

If a million innocent germans had to die to free europe from this human apocalypes that loomed over the horizon, then they had given themselves for this noble cause in my book.

I can't believe you wrote that. At what point, in your book, would it have been too many innocent dead germans? 2 million, 5 million - or simply no upper limit?

Besides which we are discussing the IRA here and not WWII.


And as for calling someone a 'pussy' for planting bombs and then running.....? Well the alternative was to meet the british military in a field. You have to remember that the objective was liberation not certain death. You have to fight within your means. Although, many fought and lost their lives with little more than stones..... Many faced their death with bottles in their hands - demonised by the press and surrounded by military hardware. Brutality worked both ways....

So planting a bomb in Hyde Park, full of nails, is brave is it?

Maybe we should be handing out VCs to these heroes, who fight an army of occupation by reducing civilian crowds to quivering mincemeat because they had the poor taste to see a military band play.

If you ocupied my street and set up check points and searched my family then you could expect the same threat from my family. Something worth fighting for...something worth dying for ..... and something worth killing for.........

It's this imaginary scale of "worth" that scares me the most. If you have a scale where, after a certain point, it's morally correct to Kill people, I want to know where that line is. You can't tell me because you don't draw that line, that line is drummed into you by your environment. Hence my words:

But people are not born low life murdering scum, they are made into disgusting and worthless life squandering subhumans by their parents, and their government, and their schools and temples and churches.



Freedom for people is a cause that in worthy of any lengths... [/B][/QUOTE]
You are prepared to sacrifice the lives of others for your freedom. How brave.

Originally posted by miniminch
By your logic Phan then we must brand all those who fought against germany and liberated us from the tyranny of nazism between 1939 - 1945 as mudering scum. And to think we honour and give medals to such people?

Granted. Let me rephrase my original reply to Derek for you -
Killing, in this manner

There are causes worth killing for phan and if you are honest you know your argument here, holds little water.

There are causes worth dying for - plenty of those. What cause is worth killing for, with the possible exception of world overpopulation? Killing people for freedom? Screwing for Chastity? Fighting a war for peace? The ends do not ever justify the means.

If a million innocent germans had to die to free europe from this human apocalypes that loomed over the horizon, then they had given themselves for this noble cause in my book.

I can't believe you wrote that. At what point, in your book, would it have been too many innocent dead germans? 2 million, 5 million - or simply no upper limit?

Besides which we are discussing the IRA here and not WWII.


And as for calling someone a 'pussy' for planting bombs and then running.....? Well the alternative was to meet the british military in a field. You have to remember that the objective was liberation not certain death. You have to fight within your means. Although, many fought and lost their lives with little more than stones..... Many faced their death with bottles in their hands - demonised by the press and surrounded by military hardware. Brutality worked both ways....

So planting a bomb in Hyde Park, full of nails, is brave is it?

Maybe we should be handing out VCs to these heroes, who fight an army of occupation by reducing civilian crowds to quivering mincemeat because they had the poor taste to see a military band play.

If you ocupied my street and set up check points and searched my family then you could expect the same threat from my family. Something worth fighting for...something worth dying for ..... and something worth killing for.........

It's this imaginary scale of "worth" that scares me the most. If you have a scale where, after a certain point, it's morally correct to Kill people, I want to know where that line is. You can't tell me because you don't draw that line, that line is drummed into you by your environment. Hence my words:

But people are not born low life murdering scum, they are made into disgusting and worthless life squandering subhumans by their parents, and their government, and their schools and temples and churches.



Freedom for people is a cause that in worthy of any lengths...
You are prepared to sacrifice the lives of others for your freedom. How brave.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Granted. Let me rephrase my original reply to Derek for you -



There are causes worth dying for - plenty of those. What cause is worth killing for, with the possible exception of world overpopulation? Killing people for freedom? Screwing for Chastity? Fighting a war for peace? The ends do not ever justify the means. killing is justified if inso doing you create a greater chance of peace for the many. WW1, WW2 being examples of this.


I can't believe you wrote that. At what point, in your book, would it have been too many innocent dead germans? 2 million, 5 million - or simply no upper limit? Until the nazis were defeated - I believe it is documented how many germans lost their lives in the final years of the second world war. Most were inocent but think what would have happened if we hadn't taken difficult decisions with human lives.




So planting a bomb in Hyde Park, full of nails, is brave is it? I think you may be missing the point of terrorism as a legitamate form of combat when occupied and facing overwhelming odds and fire power. Crude weapons, soft targets. Is it braver to launch a 3 million dollar missile at a market full of people? I'd say the first was braver.


Maybe we should be handing out VCs to these heroes, who fight an army of occupation by reducing civilian crowds to quivering mincemeat because they had the poor taste to see a military band play. Your moral outrage does not make the method of engagement any less legitamate than say firing rounds of bullets in to a crowd of protesters. You have to weigh the human cost with long term aim of the campaign. Now that the British government has made conssesions to the communities which they had invaded there now exists a state of prolonged peace. A peace situation unachieveable without the prior action. Your suggestion that people should respond to occupation by simply 'shutting up and putting up' is laughable. You could, lay the blame for the loss of innocent civilians squarely in the hands of the british government. In the same way that we blame german casualties on the nazi regime. And yes I think they will be honoured in time - for the struggle and the future lives they have saved from 'injustice' and 'persecution.' They should get medals.


It's this imaginary scale of "worth" that scares me the most. If you have a scale where, after a certain point, it's morally correct to Kill people, I want to know where that line is. You can't tell me because you don't draw that line, that line is drummed into you by your environment. Hence my words:

The line can't be draw because the task depends on the size of the tyranny - You have to admit the slaughter in Germany, South Africa, Northern Ireland, Rome etc could have all been avoided at an earlier point. And whether through greed or despotic ego, a chain of events was triggered that meant any person of self-value or of conviction would have to stand up and make difficult choices in the name of future humanity - sure any inoccent death is regretable but explain the alternatives in light of the REAL world. Most British would have fought until the last man stood in WW2 their irrational stance seems bizzarre by our peace time standard. What good would it have done them to have fought to the last man? And the same for the irish - exactly the same - that is why i use it as a point of reference. I do so that you may understand the mentality of people who feel their humanity restricted and their ways denied them. And whether you and I could have properganderised these people into believing that peaceful protest was a constructive way forward - the british government would have seen that as a green light that the occupation and subjection of these people was working - you know that could never stand.




You are prepared to sacrifice the lives of others for your freedom. How brave. I am a coward by the standard of these people - again you are right. But I have never seen the need to fight for my right to express myself in public - but I will speak up for others or what i believe no matter how unpopular that may seem. It is easy to see any terrorist or any lost of inoccent life as a crime against our moral beliefs(even though your beliefs are only what you take with you not necessarily true or false)- but again if we look at the bigger picture the crimes the government has done against others, often in our names and with enough media spin and patriotic fevour, are again more enormous and longer lasting.

I maintain that there comes a time when killing is the only way. We live in a real world where tyranny exists. (of course I would prefer that we all got along in peace but we are a social animal and with that goes a plethora of complex human codes that will be enforce and adhered to) Human peace has never been nor can it be considered a natural state.

miniminch if you honestly think the "peace" we now have in NI is anything to do with the previous violence then you know nothing whatsoever about the province, its polictics or its history. The peace was forced on the IRA by its own people (with whom it has been slowly losing support for years - although your still a fan?).

You can try and paint a picture of british oppression all you want - the fact is it was the paramilitaries that oppressed their own people and in far more violent ways. We just stood there in the middle, trying to keep them apart and giving the provo's something else to shoot at while we were at it.

I am happy that the people of ulster did stand up to the IRA and their like and have got themselves, hopefully a lasting peace. I'm proud to call some of those people my friends and they deserve the credit for the current peace - not the atrocities commited by the IRA/UDA or the british goverment.

Originally posted by miniminch
Now that the British government has made conssesions to the communities which they had invaded there now exists a state of prolonged peace. A peace situation unachieveable without the prior action.
Go tell it to Ghandi, he got us out of India a long time ago, and without bombing anyone.

We're still in NI, and in case you hadn't noticed, the troops went in because Catholics/Republicans needed protecting.

Since then we've been embroiled in the local thuggery and looking for a way out, along with the elected gov't of Eire.

If the idiots around the world would stop morally (and financially) supporting the idiots in NI the whole situation could be sorted a whole lot sooner.

The paramilitaries (on both sides) are criminals, once they have gone British troops will not need to be in country, and we can all get on with being citizens of Europe.

Again, I'll say very clearly, take your biggotry somewhere else please.

foo

I agree with much of what you say, More so with the fact that we should get certain Parliamentaries out of Ireland. However, We must go back further than that. The root of all the troubles. The potato famine. The British Landlords that abused the tenant farmers and many others. Then when they found they had gone too far. Troops took over and what happened after that was a shame on England and the Government. Many nasty things happened in Ireland in those years. But, We must draw a line under all of this. We are occupying Ulster a very small part of Ireland as a principal, Otherwise, Why did our troops move out of all the other counties in the south and hand over power to the Irish. We occupy Ireland. Now it is time that we must hand this small portion back to them. There are protestants in the south that live quite happily alongside Catholics. There are no politicians stirring them up down south. Many of those in the North are quite happy to carry on living on British Benefits, and with the British Law. Yet I believe that now Ireland is part of the EEC inc. the Euro etc. They should be left alone. Maybe if we got rid of Paisley from one side and Mc guiness from the other we will make progress.

Originally posted by Rodgers
foo
I agree with much of what you say,
Good, about time ! ;)

Originally posted by Rodgers
However, We must go back further than that. The root of all the troubles. The potato famine. The British Landlords that abused the tenant farmers and many others. Then when they found they had gone too far. Troops took over and what happened after that was a shame on England and the Government. Many nasty things happened in Ireland in those years.
I think a lot of the problems predate this by some considerable amount, but maybe I'm being pedantic, in general I agree. However, these facts must be put in the context of the time, the labouring classes in England, Wales, and especially Scotland were not exactly faring much better at the time. Really the problem is how the landed gentry behaved towards everyone else, rather that a simplistic English vs Irish argument.

Originally posted by Rodgers
But, We must draw a line under all of this.

Exactly, and emotive "us/them" arguments merely fuel the divide, and play well into the hands of the criminal elements who make hey amidst the hate.

Originally posted by Rodgers
We are occupying Ulster a very small part of Ireland as a principal, Otherwise, Why did our troops move out of all the other counties in the south and hand over power to the Irish.
I'm sure you really already know the answer to this, (as divisive as it may seem) the northern most counties wished to stay in the Union, and that is still the case.

Originally posted by Rodgers
We occupy Ireland. Now it is time that we must hand this small portion back to them. There are protestants in the south that live quite happily alongside Catholics. There are no politicians stirring them up down south. Many of those in the North are quite happy to carry on living on British Benefits, and with the British Law.
In general I agree, but to do so must be with the agreement of the whole (and by that I obviously mean by a majority) population of NI, and the gov't of Eire must be supported in this. As things currently stand, I very much doubt if Eire could cope with the problems it would inherit all on it's own. I'll also add, that support should not only come from the UK, other parties must come forward to aid the process.

Originally posted by Rodgers
Yet I believe that now Ireland is part of the EEC inc. the Euro etc. They should be left alone.
Again, agreed, the more that we become citizens of a larger Europe, the less these petty boundaries are important. Anyway, I'm a Yorkshireman first, English second, being European really doesn't worry me in the slightest, it really *is* a benefit.

Originally posted by Rodgers
Maybe if we got rid of Paisley from one side and Mc guiness from the other we will make progress.

Again agreed, the removal of anachronistic characters like these two (and others) can only be a benefit to the future peace and stability of Ireland, and a hope for the future of the whole of Europe.

Simplistic bigotry is the enemy of all right minded people.

Whilst not forgetting our common history, lets all look forward with hope and understanding.

:)

OK Foo we started this thread disagreeing on many things, The next step, We will take over the peace talks and re-instate the good friday agreement. ha ha ha

Originally posted by Rodgers
OK Foo we started this thread disagreeing on many things, The next step, We will take over the peace talks and re-instate the good friday agreement. ha ha ha
OK, no problem...

...ooh, but I am a bit busy next Thursday, erm, I'll have to get back to you on that one...

:thumbsup:

Rodgers, your remark about Protestants living "happily alongside" Catholics in the south of Ireland made me smile. One of the reasons why Ulster Protestants fear a Catholic-dominated "United Ireland", is the driving out [some would call it "ethnic cleansing"] of thousands of predominantly, Anglican [Church of Ireland] Protestants by the IRA in the early part of last century. Who can blame northern Protestants for being sceptical about their possible fate under Republican rule?

OK Timo

There is no arguement with that. I say we must draw a line under the past. Hard to do granted. But There are rights and wrongs on all sides. If we keep refering back to half a century ago we will not make any progress. I have used several clubs in the South, One big one in Galway. There are Catholic and Protestant members getting on OK. No mention of Politics at all in the Galway Club. OK. we do have problems, Worries and grievances. I do myself about other Political and religious groups. But till we learn to understand we will get nowhere. I think most will agree with me on this thread. I think we should send a copy of this thread to both sides. Maybe we can give them the right ideas. Well we can hope.

Thanks, Rodgers. I fully accept that there are wrongs on both sides. I also understand your point about dredging up history too. Unfortunately, many of the seemingly irremediable ethnic grudges have roots deep in history. We sometimes have to examine the past in order to make sense of the present. I realise, of course, that there are limits.

Actually, for people whose present day lives are so bound up with the past, the Catholics and Protestants of Northern Ireland are often woefully ignorant of history. Or, perhaps, they are taught [in the spirit of the politics of ethnic identity in Northern Ireland] distorted versions of it that function as self-aggrandising myths? When Gerry Adams talks of a thousand years of English interference in Irish affairs, he harks back to the Camro-Norman Knights of Strongbow and his followers. They were a mixture of Normans, Flemings and Welsh rather than English, and they have given the world names regarded as Irish and nothing else; Wogan, Roche, Fitzgerald, Joyce etc. Ian Paisley boasts of "his people" carving out a civilisation when the ancestors of the Catholics were living in ignorance and poverty. For a start, the Protestant population and Catholic population interbred more than Dr Paisley realises [especially in Tyrone]. Secondly, at one point in the middle ages, Irish learning was the most advanced in Europe.

However, it serves no useful purpose to point such things out. Why? Because both "sides" depend upon myths to hold their respective cultures together, to maintain symbolic boundaries. It is no good telling Gerry Adams that the earliest inhabitants of Ireland certainly were not the Gaels, or that his surname is of Lowland Scots origin. Nor would it do any good to tell the Orange Orders that the Pope actually supported "King Billy" re the Battle of the Boyne. Often, what people BELIEVE to be the case is more important than what is the case.

Very well put Timo. I hope that the points you raise along with foo's are noticed by certain others that have subscribed to this thread. I could not have put it better myself. Maybe because I am one of those that get's a little too involved with the politics I admit I am not perfect and do not alway's see the full picture that others are trying in their own way's to paint. That is one of the advantages of a forum, Where we can all put a point of view and draw our own conclusions, Hopefully without getting personal as some have done.

Originally posted by Rodgers
That is one of the advantages of a forum, Where we can all put a point of view and draw our own conclusions, Hopefully without getting personal as some have done.

Agree with you there Rodgers. Also - whilst there is still alot of work to bring about 'peace' in NI please don't let that put people off visiting. Belfast has had alot of investment over the last few years and you can have a good weekend away there. Loads of good countryside too. Go and fly from east mids!

I go to Ireland N orth and South 3 maybe 4 times a year. It is a great place to go and holiday, Kids would love it. It is a pity that there are scars. But, Hopefully in time. Things will change. I for one am very optimistic about that

Rodgers,
Thanks for your kind words. I don't claim to be an expert on "the Troubles". Mine is the view of an Englishman in his early forties, to put it into perspective. I have, however, some experience of both the Republic and Northern Ireland, and friends from both sides of the ethnic/religious divide.

Re the forum; I think it is a good thing too, as long as people treat each other with courtesy. Having said that, I have engaged in savaging fellow contributors on occasion...

Originally posted by Rodgers
Very well put Timo. I hope that the points you raise along with foo's are noticed by certain others that have subscribed to this thread. I could not have put it better myself. Maybe because I am one of those that get's a little too involved with the politics I admit I am not perfect and do not alway's see the full picture that others are trying in their own way's to paint. That is one of the advantages of a forum, Where we can all put a point of view and draw our own conclusions, Hopefully without getting personal as some have done.

What you mean like sending veiled threats in PM's like you have done rodgers?

So have I Timo. I get worked up when ignorance shows it's face. I love a good arguement but, I like to keep it as an arguement not a fight. We all have differing views, Life would be very boring if we did not. But, It is wrong to assume because some-one disagrees with you that they are liars, War mongers, Two faced etc. Not knowing everyone on the forum personaly, This makes it easier to put points over. If I told everyone about me, Some would not believe what I say. But, Why fabricate as someone mentioned earlier. That is a waste of time on a forum. What has a person got to gain by this. I would mentio, I do not use a nick-name on the forum. I am known to a lot of users so I would be at a disadvantage to fabricate anything. We all upset others, If we do then it is time to take " Time out ". But, This should not distract from a friendly and may I say an educating arguement. I have many articles printed in the Star, More so in the " Sun ". I love it when people write in and disagree with me. Some of the things I write about, I write to provoke a good debate, Whether or not I believe in many points myself is a neither here nor there. I just like to make people think, Make people look for what they think is the answer. I believe we can do this and have a good debate at the same time.

I personally wish to see Ulster remain British. That is the wish of the majority, or appears to be. We have to convince Catholics that they too belong in such a place, though. That is a difficult task of the first water. My experience [probably limited because I am an English Protestant] is that some Catholics would prefer the status quo, not out of love for Britain but because they harbour a greater fear of the unknown. Secondly, I have talked with many, many Irish students from the Republic about "the troubles". The consensus amongst these young people was that they, "couldn't care less" about a "United Ireland". There is the possibility that they were telling an Englishman what they thought he might like to hear. However, the frequency with which I encountered the sentiments makes me suspect they are genuine.

Yes Timo, We all have differing views for different reasons. But regardless of the situation as it stands, We are democratic enough to make up our own minds and to hold our own opinions, We are correct in what we believe. It is sad that violence has been the answer. Regardless of who rules over Ulster, They still have the freedoms and liberties that we all enjoy, Be they Catholic or Protestant. At the end of the day we are all living within a democracy with all it's faults and abuses. Not only in Ireland, But here too, We must learn to live together and respect others for what they believe in. The problems come when we force our beliefs on others.

Originally posted by timo
I personally wish to see Ulster remain British. That is the wish of the majority, or appears to be. We have to convince Catholics that they too belong in such a place, though. That is a difficult task of the first water. My experience [probably limited because I am an English Protestant] is that some Catholics would prefer the status quo, not out of love for Britain but because they harbour a greater fear of the unknown. Secondly, I have talked with many, many Irish students from the Republic about "the troubles". The consensus amongst these young people was that they, "couldn't care less" about a "United Ireland". There is the possibility that they were telling an Englishman what they thought he might like to hear. However, the frequency with which I encountered the sentiments makes me suspect they are genuine.

That is exactly the same reaction I get from Irish friends.
At the end of the day Sinn Fein stood for election in Ireland (as in Eiere) and got 7% of the vote. Better than you would expect, but not a signal that the irish wish to have the north "back".

EDIT: or maybe they just a have a problem with voting for convicted murders? I mean look at the BNP / Nick Griffin siutation here....

Originally posted by timo
I personally wish to see Ulster remain British. That is the wish of the majority, or appears to be. We have to convince Catholics that they too belong in such a place, though. That is a difficult task of the first water. My experience [probably limited because I am an English Protestant] is that some Catholics would prefer the status quo, not out of love for Britain but because they harbour a greater fear of the unknown. Secondly, I have talked with many, many Irish students from the Republic about "the troubles". The consensus amongst these young people was that they, "couldn't care less" about a "United Ireland". There is the possibility that they were telling an Englishman what they thought he might like to hear. However, the frequency with which I encountered the sentiments makes me suspect they are genuine.

With respect to that......we have stolen a part of a country....why not give it back...if the irish dont care about a united Ireland...it shouldnt make a difference...the land is and always will be theres....to keep it would mean we are no better then the Americans in Iraq...I do respect what your saying and theres nothing wrong with catholics and protestants living together....just making a fair observation..

Blacksoul,
It is not as simple as that. The descendants of English and Lowland Scots planters in Ulster can trace their ancestry back over three hundred years. Regardless of whether the "plantation" may be seen by some as brutal, colonial theft, a deeply embedded culture which revolves around Protestantism has evolved. It will not simply disappear the moment Adams and McGuinness achieve their dream. Whether Republicans like it or not, the vast majority of Ulster Protestants remain passionately loyal to Britain. Cynics may sneer and say that they are loyal to a 1950s image of Britain, or that their "loyalty" is not reciprocated. However, I hope that Republicans will eventually realise that the Protestants have to be accomodated. They cannot be bombed out of Ulster, as they have proved time and time again.

As I have said previously on this thread. If ever we do see a victory for Messrs Adams, Mc Guinness and co, the likelihood is that the conflict will continue on this side of the water. There would be enough very, very angry Protestants in Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester to see to that...

Not only that Timo - to achieve a united Ireland, Ireland would need to actualy want it back. And the current ruling party in Ireland doesn't.
Even if Adams and co achieve their aim of ellection in the north (with a huge majority) they would still need to win down south to meet their objective. And they are currently a long way off achieving that aim on both sides (more so in the south).

Kilauea,
Re the Republic "not wanting" a unified Ireland; the Republic have signed away all claims to Ulster. Perhaps money comes into the equation, as it so often does? How could the Republic possibly afford to run Ulster?

yup, regretably besides some recent investment unemployment is high in ulster. I'm sure bertie prefers the benefit payements to be coming from westminster rather than dublin.
Sinn Fein do state in their manifesto in the south though that they would seek a unification with the north if elected. Which pretty much makes then unelectable until such a time as Ulster becomes extremely propserous and generates more wealth than it costs to run.

Kilauea,
You mention the welfare payments. Yes, often the same people who have plotted to murder "the Bratash" in their beds, places of recreation etc, are those happy to take dole money supplied by "enemy" taxes.

A student from Donegal once told me that her father hated everything about Britain and British people, especially the southern English. Needless to say, he had never been to southern England or met people from delightful counties like Kent, Dorset etc. The same "staunch" Republican, ever-a-waiting for his day to come, who gloated spitefully over every misery felt by the British from IRA bombings to black ice on the roads, drove to work in Antrim every day. I asked why. Apparently, although he loathed and abhorred the British, he preferred to be paid in English pounds and admitted he "needed" the British. Food for thought...