do u support the action to prevent any religious dress in schools and in work places ?

wish we had the same laws in this country for once im with the french with this one... from what ive read so far from various newspapers jewish groups etc have not said anything about this law anyone agree its just muslim paranioa:thumbsup:

The French have a tradition of a secular education system though don't they? I thought 50% of French Muslims were in favour of the decision for this reason.

We can't claim the same here. Maybe we should follow the French and remove compulsory acts of worship as a legal requirement for schools ?

If an individual school chooses to 'ban headgear' then that would be a decision that could be looked into individually - however, to deny religious or cultural headgear in schools would be to deny Sikhs the right to ride motorcycles without wearing a helmet (provided they are wearing a turban).

I suppose it really depends on one's foaming-at-the-mouth fear of the unkown, or one's rabid egalitarianism.

grauniad website
"To do nothing would be irresponsible. It would be a fault," Mr Chirac told the closed-door cabinet meeting on Wednesday, according to the government spokesman Jean-Francois Cope.

The bill, containing three articles, would ban conspicuous religious symbols from public schools, namely Islamic headscarves, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses. However, the president made clear that it is aimed at Muslim head coverings.


Mr. Chirac is mistaken if he thinks this will reduce the level of national racial tensions. But I would imagine that both the Jewish and the Muslim conservatives will make quite certain the provision of privately run schools as far as is possible.

Interestingly groups such as Hamas are in part educators (not to diminish their terrorist atrocities);I wonder if this educational apartheid based on headgear is not only a bit Dagenham* but could actually be a prelude to far nastier things.

*three stops beyond Barking

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
If an individual school chooses to 'ban headgear' then that would be a decision that could be looked into individually - however, to deny religious or cultural headgear in schools would be to deny Sikhs the right to ride motorcycles without wearing a helmet (provided they are wearing a turban).

I suppose it really depends on one's foaming-at-the-mouth fear of the unkown, or one's rabid egalitarianism.



Mr. Chirac is mistaken if he thinks this will reduce the level of national racial tensions. But I would imagine that both the Jewish and the Muslim conservatives will make quite certain the provision of privately run schools as far as is possible.

Interestingly groups such as Hamas are in part educators (not to diminish their terrorist atrocities);I wonder if this educational apartheid based on headgear is not only a bit Dagenham* but could actually be a prelude to far nastier things.

*three stops beyond Barking
as from what im aware the jewish community hasnt complained about the said law are these protests just muslim paranoia and left wingers jumping on another bandwaggon

Just a bit of background to the French situation, for those not aware. Apparantly, at one time the Catholic Church effectively controlled French schools. This was seen as enabling indoctrination. This is why the French are a little obsessive about a separation between church and state and most especially in schools.

This background leads clearly to the legislation, a situation not present in the UK. It does not, of course, eliminate other motives behind suggesting the bill. Electioneering certainly does seem to play a part.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
however, to deny religious or cultural headgear in schools would be to deny Sikhs the right to ride motorcycles without wearing a helmet (provided they are wearing a turban).



Didnt quite follow that bit, my head must not be screwed on yet...
If you ride a bike you should wear a helmet. If you cannot fit a helmet, that is your problem. No bike. Am I being stupid and missing the point?


As for the original question:

I'm totally with the French on this one. For 2 reasons.

1) I think when you go to live in another country - especially one with a vastly different culture - you should do the most you possibly can to integrate into their culture/lifestyle. To segregate yourself into little communities of same-race people is not integrating into the community. It's like the British communities in southern Spain - they've taken over little areas and turned them into almost English territory. They've never even observed - let alone respected or joined - the cultures and traditions of the country they are in.
If you join a country, you integrate. You are not at home, so you should observe your surroundings, and act accordingly.

2) I actually fear religion a great deal. All forms of religion. It is to blame for almost every war in history, it is what is causing a great deal of tension at the minute, it's what's causing me to fear America a great deal at present. I can find no merit in religious beliefs in this day and age, so I dont like to see any people advertising their religion. That's just a personal thing I know.

My only doubt with it all is that if they have a few special schools that do allow religious dress, it will just sepererate people even further, preventing the growth of integration between cultures.

religion has no place in modern life, for years it's been used as a means to control people….I think were evolved enough now that we can get along without all the fairy tales and superstitions that is religion

Originally posted by Daveyboy
religion has no place in modern life, for years it's been used as a means to control people….I think were evolved enough now that we can get along without all the fairy tales and superstitions that is religion

Yup.

Originally posted by jackthedog
Didnt quite follow that bit, my head must not be screwed on yet...
If you ride a bike you should wear a helmet. If you cannot fit a helmet, that is your problem. No bike. Am I being stupid and missing the point?


If you are a practising Sikh, you are exempted under the law from wearing a motorcycle helmet. It is a point of law.

As for the original question:

I'm totally with the French on this one. For 2 reasons.

1) I think when you go to live in another country - especially one with a vastly different culture - you should do the most you possibly can to integrate into their culture/lifestyle. To segregate yourself into little communities of same-race people is not integrating into the community. It's like the British communities in southern Spain - they've taken over little areas and turned them into almost English territory. They've never even observed - let alone respected or joined - the cultures and traditions of the country they are in.
If you join a country, you integrate. You are not at home, so you should observe your surroundings, and act accordingly.


This has nothing to do with immigration. These are french muslims we are talking about. I see lots of women wearing this where I live, and it hardly sends shivers of fear down my spine - Live and Let Live, especially where headgear is involved eh?


2) I actually fear religion a great deal. All forms of religion. It is to blame for almost every war in history, it is what is causing a great deal of tension at the minute, it's what's causing me to fear America a great deal at present.


I disagree. Religion has been used as a convenient excuse by powermongers throughout the ages.

...That's just a personal thing I know.


Fair Enough

My only doubt with it all is that if they have a few special schools that do allow religious dress, it will just sepererate people even further, preventing the growth of integration between cultures.

Exactly. This measure, carried out under the guise of total secularism in schools, will affect Sikhs too, whose headgear is intrinsic to their faith, and will lead to segregation in school, which is a really crap way of keeping people integrated and happy.

Chirac has said that it will stop extremism in its tracks, but i wonder precisely which planet he is on.

Originally posted by panda79
as from what im aware the jewish community hasnt complained about the said law are these protests just muslim paranoia and left wingers jumping on another bandwaggon

Hmm, it seems that you are actually not aware of that much then Panda.....



The Times
Chirac's real motives may be connected with the declining popularity of his Government. His centre-right coalition faces local elections in May and feels threatened by the rising tide of both left and right extremism.

The extreme right — especially the National Front, which won 18 per cent of the votes in the presidential election two years ago — portrays Islam as a threat to "Christian" France. The Left, for its part, claims that Islam is the only religion that can endanger France's secular traditions.

Chirac may well be using this law to chip at the support base of both extremes. It may be a clever tactic in electoral terms. But it leaves the real issue untouched: France is threatened by a number of extremist groups and parties, of which the Islamists are but one.




and even

From Le Monde
The Jewish father of two Muslim girls expelled from their school in the northern Paris suburbs for wearing headscarves has described the decision as 'scholastic apartheid' and vowed to launch an appeal.
.

And I assume any ban on religious headgear in this country would extend to Sikhs and The Plymouth Brethren.

i think to make our country safe is to respect other cultures and religions and let them behave in the way they like unless their behaviour is affecting our culture or sicuirty

i think this is the only way to reduce radical tensions

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
If you are a practising Sikh, you are exempted under the law from wearing a motorcycle helmet. It is a point of law.


I cant believe I never knew that!

When was the last time anyone saw a Sikh riding a motorcycle?

You've obviously not seen the episode of Only Fools and Horses involving Trotter's Crash Turbans...

Religion seems to create all the world's divisions these days.

Originally posted by Fairydreams



Just a bit of background to the French situation, for those not aware. Apparantly, at one time the Catholic Church effectively controlled French schools.


The Catholic Church also religiously controlled the whole of England at one time and every citizen was Catholic . . .

. . . until King Henry VIII booted them out in the 1500's because the Pope in Rome refused to grant him a divorce.

Henry then created the less fanatical Church of England.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Hmm, it seems that you are actually not aware of that much then Panda.....







and even

.

And I assume any ban on religious headgear in this country would extend to Sikhs and The Plymouth Brethren.

If it was introduced the Plymouth Brethren would have a job on just finding it out as they don't have T.V, Radio or Computers.
Needless to say they will never be massive contributors to this forum!
As for the someone being frightened by the religious and religion I wouldn't worry to much, as all decent religions promote tolerance ,peace and understanding.
Unfortunately some human beings will not except any of the above criteria and exist in fear and ignorance of each other.
It wouldn't be a challenge if it was simple !

I think pagans should be allowed to go skyclad whenever the religious mood takes them. Unless they are old in which case it may be offensive. :P :D

I think that if the religious uniform is hazardous or restrictive in away for the purpose at hand then it should not be allowed.

There are many jobs where certain uniforms are not only to look nice but are essentiual for the persons safety.

Moon

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
There are many jobs where certain uniforms are not only to look nice but are essentiual for the persons safety.

Like sexy nurses !?

Originally posted by bulldog D

As for the someone being frightened by the religious and religion I wouldn't worry to much, as all decent religions promote tolerance ,peace and understanding.
Unfortunately some human beings will not except any of the above criteria and exist in fear and ignorance of each other.
It wouldn't be a challenge if it was simple !

Precisely.

I think banning islamic headgear in schools is a retorgrade step.

Interestingly Sikh headgear is protected under law, because it is effectively mono-cultural, but because of the ide cultural spectrum of muslims, no such protection exists for them.

If British schools were to follow the practice of disallowing hajib and other headscarves then unless these students were provided with 'headgear friendly' schools, the government would be in breach of the education act as it would be denying them schooling or infringing on their religious freedom.

This is the way to go if you want segregated schooling, which lets face it has been a storming success in breaking down cross cultural boundaries in Northern Ireland.

Originally posted by Daveyboy
religion has no place in modern life, for years it's been used as a means to control people….I think were evolved enough now that we can get along without all the fairy tales and superstitions that is religion
I don't see your point. Fairy tales and superstitions are untrue, and everyone knows that. Also apart from extremists, I would imagine religious people are less likely to need to be "controled".

Originally posted by Sidla
I don't see your point. Fairy tales and superstitions are untrue, and everyone knows that. Also apart from extremists, I would imagine religious people are less likely to need to be "controled".

That's because they're already being controlled by the beliefs they have had enforced upon them from an early age, or that they have "found" in times of struggle or hardship. Make no mistake - religion is a tool with which its founders and preachers can control the followers.

With regards to the religious symbols, the wearing of headscarves serves only to establish divisions between people on the grounds of religion and therefore I agree with the French government on banning them in schools. Headscarves and other religious symbols and clothes simply restrict integration.

My own personal opinion is that if the muslim person wants to wear a hijaab, then what's the problem? They aren't hurting anyone by wearing it.

they should not be forced either way.

Of course the fanatics who have been screaming for the ban on hijaabs have to realise that yes, the muslim woman cannot wear hijaab, and, not only, but also... (10 points if you get the reference)

the muslim man cannot wear the little crocheted cap that they wear,
a sikh will be barred from wearing his turban,
A jewish male will be banned from wearing his Yarmulkeh (the skulll cap)
A jewish woman (eg a teacher) if she is orthodox will not be permitted to wear her Scheitel (i think that's the correct name for teh mandatory wig that such as the Hasidic jews make women wear)

And... a nun who is a teacher will not be permitted to wear her habit/ wimple (headdress)
and a priest who comes in to do the religious education to prepare the kids for th e first communin canno t wear his priestly robes.

after all, the habit and the priestly robes and croses the nuns and priests wear are as much of, if not more so, an "ostentatious display of religion" too.....

The muslim faith dictates that the male and the female must be covered, and dressed modestly, covering at least a proscribed area of the body. (usually interpreted as cover from neck, to wrist to ankle).

I have tried to explain the concept of dressing modestly to my OH, but he doesn't buy it. I have tried to explain to him that, for certain muslim women who wear hijaab, a demand that they have their heads uncovered would be like insisting that an english woman walk up the moor, on a saturday lunchtime, naked.

the hijaab-wearers aren't hurting anyone or anything. if they want to cover, modestly, why are folk up in arms? What's the harm?

I really do think that the french gov' t have dropped a clanger over this. And I don't think they realise how much bad feeling they are generating against themselves.

Plain Talker

Originally posted by t020
That's because they're already being controlled by the beliefs they have had enforced upon them from an early age, or that they have "found" in times of struggle or hardship. Make no mistake - religion is a tool with which its founders and preachers can control the followers.
Why is this a bad thing? If the objectives of the religion are honourable and lead to a better outlook on life then surely it can only be good.

What winds me up about these religious situations is that they are self-contrived problems. Its the attitude that gets me: 'because I belong to a religion my beliefs must be respected especially'. Religious followers need to remember the those without religious still have very strongly-held beliefs (and often more strongly-held than those of some religious believers) which are no less respectable than their own.
If someone believes people should be allowed certain clothing for their religious beliefs, why shouldnt someone else believe that people should not be allowed to wear certain clothing for their religious beliefs? Both stances are equally dogmatic.
I dont mind what people wear to school, but I think nonreligious beliefs have as much right to be heard as religious ones... and thats something that some groups might have a hard time agreeing with.

it's about giving equal validity and respect to folks' sets of beleifs, isn't it?

I may not think that for example, Hinduism is "right" with its polytheism, or atheism is "right" with its "no God". but I have friends who hold this, that, or the other credo, and I respect them, and acknowledge that this is their credo. I work with Christian, Muslim, Agnostic and Atheist work colleagues and I do not make any descrimination between them

But I do not have the right to say to another person "Just because your religious beliefs do not correspond with mine, you are not permitted to hold them!"

we have freedom of religion, the freedom to believe in something (whatever that something is) or the freedom to believe in nothing.

It is our right. So long as we aren't hurting anyone, or interfering, then, surely, it's our prerogative to subscribe to whichever belief system we want. and if that belief involves something as harmless as simply wearing a square of cloth on our head (a-la nuns, muslims, sikh men, brethren-women, or whichever) then what is the problem?

Is society as we know it going to disintegrate, just because of a metre square piece of fabric worn on a woman's head?

Plain Talker

I agree that segregation is one of the biggest reasons for racial/religious/cultural tension between groups. However, i can't ever remember a time when i refused to talk to someone based on what they were wearing. Headgear and clothing doesn't hurt anyone and shouldn't have anything to do with segregation. It's peoples actions that cause segregation not what they wear. Aren't we addressing the wrong issue?

just an opinion as always.

This makes me so ANGRY!!!! Everyone is an individual and have their own rights and beliefs, who are we to take that away from sumone by telling them what to do. The Quaran says that muslim girls must cover their heads and if they take it off, they would be braking the rules of allah, and who are we to tell them to take it off, its up to the invidiual person to decide and not anyone else. I was SHOCKED wen i saw this on the news, we have no right to do this and if i was a muslim woman i would do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to stop this.....its wrong. This is only happening because of the lack of understanding for religious cultures.

I am totally anti-religion.

How long before somebody complains if I wear anti-religious statements on my T-shirt?

I completely understand what you are saying Barbie - however before you write it off as extremely unacceptable consider this.

Someone who follows a faith that requires to dress in a certain way takes a job that requires certain levels of safety clothing.

They cannot wear this safety clothing because it is in direct conflict with their religious teachings and because the employer has a right to see that beliefs are respected then allows the worker not to wear the unacceptable part of the clothing.

Said worker is then involved in a work accident where the safety clothing their religion restricted them from wearing could have saved their life or part of their anatomy.
Worker then sues company for negligence.

Vice versa - people who are restricted by clothing are refused jobs because they will not take a job that is not respectful of their beliefs and then sues for religious discrimination.

There has to be a half way, where no one if discriminated against for their belief, but where safety and work continues at an acceptable and safe level.

Just screaming oh this is wrong is no way to go about solving anything.

Moon Maiden

I understand what ur sayin "Moon" bout the health and safety issues. They could wear there headscarfs in the areas that DONT need them and then wear the procetive clothing were they DO need them, but not totally ban it alltogether, thats wrong, and in schools......wer do u need protective clothing on ur head???

Originally posted by Andy78
. Headgear and clothing doesn't hurt anyone and shouldn't have anything to do with segregation. It's peoples actions that cause segregation not what they wear. Aren't we addressing the wrong issue?

just an opinion as always.

i agree with you andy

i think we dont the same mistake when we want to solve a problem, we looking to wrong reasons which based on our emotion toward someone not the real causes

Here we against segragation but what are real reasons for segregation lets explain that
is it the culture or religion differences ? no, cos if we respect other cultures there will be any segregation

is it the coluor or race ?
no , if we remmeber that no one can choose his colour or race then there will be no problem

so we can say that the man action or behaviour is the main reason for segregation

everyone has to go to school and there is no need to wear certain clothes or safety ones so there is no reason to ban religious dress in schools

my opinion

Originally posted by jackthedog
I am totally anti-religion.

How long before somebody complains if I wear anti-religious statements on my T-shirt?
I wouldn't complain, but I would find it sad that anyone could feel so passionate about it.

Originally posted by Sidla
I wouldn't complain, but I would find it sad that anyone could feel so passionate about it.

It's okay to be passionate about a religion. Why not about anti-religion?

It's a hypothetic point I know - nobody would actually do it - but i just think people would take offence and you'd be asked to remove it pretty quickly.

Is society as we know it going to disintegrate, just because of a metre square piece of fabric worn on a woman's head?

Plain Talker


No.
But nor will it disintegrated because we forbid it. I disagree that because something is considered harmless that it should be allowed per se, as what people consider harmless is up to the individual also.

If its no big deal whats the problem?....but if its no big deal why is there a problem banning it? Clearly some people think it is a big deal, so - while I dont mind- I would defend the right of those who do mind to object.

Originally posted by jackthedog
It's okay to be passionate about a religion. Why not about anti-religion?

It's a hypothetic point I know - nobody would actually do it - but i just think people would take offence and you'd be asked to remove it pretty quickly.
It's hypocritical. It means that in believing your belief you believe that nobody else is entitled to believe what they want.

Originally posted by Sidla
It's hypocritical. It means that in believing your belief you believe that nobody else is entitled to believe what they want.

Nah, it'd just be showing your disdain for religious beleifs.

In actual fact the French have banned ALL religious symbols in schools

That is ALL religious symbols - which must include a small crucifix on a chain, like the one I wear for instance. It is not just about muslim head scarves or jewish caps or sikh turbans

I would be interested to see if the defenders will still defend the policy now that they know that

Speaking personally, I think people should generally be allowed to wear things that are important and special to them, as long as they are not a problem to anyone else

And it is nothing to do with "They come over here and they should do what we do" Many muslims have been here or in France for aeons, for generations, and they arent all asians either, although I doubt the knee-jerkers will realise that

Originally posted by Belle
Speaking personally, I think people should generally be allowed to wear things that are important and special to them, as long as they are not a problem to anyone else



this is our main point

with regard to dress in schools - there occassions where certain clothing and items are dangerous.

How many times we heard the thing on jewelry. I Understand that schools in Bradford brought in a half way measure for girls who needed to cover up so they could still participate during PE.

I think religion in school can be so restrictive and cause so many problems, not just for the school but the kids too. Children don't get to choose the family religion - it is there.

I hate it when I hear pagan parents ranting on about how their children shouldn't have to learn about christianity and follow christian celebrations, wish they would geta a life when it only makes up a small percentage of the schools teaching program.
Personally I think it is important that children learn about the heritage of their country paganism is covered in history and chritianity and other faiths in RE.

What more could you want?

Moon

At the end of the day, if you live in a country you stick by the rules and laws set by that country's government. If Muslim girls feel so strongly about wearing their head scarves, then the answer is simple - move to a muslim country.

Religion is out dated and causes tension between people, not to mention several wars. It is repressive and scares people into living a certain way whilst making a somewhat far fetched promise about the reward for following it, i.e. heaven. This applies to ALL religions before anyone begins throwing any accusations at me.

Everyone should stick to the rules without exception, that's what they are there for. Start giving preferences to certain groups of people, and you create problems.

but isn't that what the threads about - what rules and how they should be made?

Moon

Surely the rules are already there in the school's dress code. Whatever they say, they should be adhered to.

Still i find it hard to understand how clothes or symbols upset people. Which is all they are to me as i'm not religious. If they mean something to others, then crack on, doesnt affect my life one jot!

Originally posted by Andy78
Still i find it hard to understand how clothes or symbols upset people. Which is all they are to me as i'm not religious. If they mean something to others, then crack on, doesnt affect my life one jot!

you try putting an upside down cross in front of a vicar!

Moon Maiden

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
you try putting an upside down cross in front of a vicar!

Moon Maiden

Haha, that would be really funny, however i wouldnt do that as it'd mean nothing to me.

Originally posted by t020
At the end of the day, if you live in a country you stick by the rules and laws set by that country's government. If Muslim girls feel so strongly about wearing their head scarves, then the answer is simple - move to a muslim country.

Religion is out dated and causes tension between people, not to mention several wars. It is repressive and scares people into living a certain way whilst making a somewhat far fetched promise about the reward for following it, i.e. heaven. This applies to ALL religions before anyone begins throwing any accusations at me.
If it bothers you that much then why don't you f*** off to a country that doesn't have any religion.

How can religion be out-dated when 90% of the people in the world believe in some form of God?

Religion doesn't cause tension between people at all, it's people who question it, disagree with it, and persecution because of it.

Originally posted by Sidla
If it bothers you that much then why don't you f*** off to a country that doesn't have any religion.

How can religion be out-dated when 90% of the people in the world believe in some form of God?

Religion doesn't cause tension between people at all, it's people who question it, disagree with it, and persecution because of it.


If that were the case then please tell me why less than 5% of the 'Christian' population attend church on a Sunday? Can't you see how brainwashed you are - you've been taught something and think its bad to question it, or DARE to disagree with it! Religion is outdated. It served its purpose of controlling people in a time before we had established governments and law enforcement but there is very little place in todays society for stories that were made up thousands of years ago based on no evidence at all. Religion does cause wars by way of the fact that different religions clash, e.g. Muslims and Hindus, Muslims and Jews, Protestants and Catholics etc. You don't see many wars being fought on the grounds of atheism, but you see plenty started through religious differences. In effect, World Wars were started because of religious differences.

Religion is a comfort mechanism for the needy who can't handle the idea that their life is basically insignificant on the grand scale of things and are too wrapped up in themselves to accept the idea of their mortality.

We live. We die. We rot. End of story.

But that said, it's *mostly* harmless, but tends to get hijacked by those who desire power in order to use for their own dubious ends.

Originally posted by t020
you've been taught something and think its bad to question it, or DARE to disagree with it!
I do dare disagree with a lot of aspects of Christianity. I don't believe the Earth was created in 6 days, I don't believe it's wrong to be gay. I have my own opinions about many thing that are mentioned in the bible and most of my beliefs fit in with the teachings of Jesus. If people can't think for themselves then they're fairly shallow minded.

[b]stories that were made up thousands of years ago based on no evidence at all.
There is a hell of a lot of evidence that Jesus really did exist, and probably Mohammed too, but I'm not as well versed on the Koran.

Religion does cause wars by way of the fact that different religions clash, e.g. Muslims and Hindus, Muslims and Jews, Protestants and Catholics etc. You don't see many wars being fought on the grounds of atheism, but you see plenty started through religious differences. In effect, World Wars were started because of religious differences.
No, wars are fought by evil individuals who use religion as an excuse. Take the protestants and catholics for example, if they truely were Christians they would accept that their beliefs are founded by the same individual who taught them to 'love thy neighbour'.

Give me some proof that God existed. I'm not disputing that Jesus lived - he was probably a nutter who actually thought he was the son of God. Theres no evidence to say he rose from the dead, or that his mother gave birth to him as a virgin. Come off it! Theres no evidence that he walked on water. Theres no evidence that God exists at all. Religion is a symbol of our own self importance as a species, thinking we're special - we're not. We're just a collection of developed and evolved cells. We're no more important than insects in the great scheme of things. We're simply a life form - we live and we die. Theres no after life.

Originally posted by t020
Give me some proof that God existed.
Give me some proof that he doesn't.

Theres no evidence to say he rose from the dead, or that his mother gave birth to him as a virgin. Come off it! Theres no evidence that he walked on water.
It's all in the gosples. Have you read them? Maybe you should before you go passing judgement on them and their followers.

Quite frankly, I don't give a stuff if what is written in the bible is true or not. I think the philosophy of the teaching of Jesus is to be admired and the more people who follow his teaching the better IMO.

Originally posted by t020
Give me some proof that God existed.


u asked to a proof that god existed i gona let u answer that by urself

if i told u that a man want to cross a river and he waited for ages to find aboat to cross it but he couldnt , suddenly he saw some pieces of wood are gathering and making up aboat , and that man used that boat to cross that river

would u believe this story ?

if u say yes then u are stupid
if u say no then how whole this universe is created ?
is it easier to creat aboat or whole universe ?

Originally posted by sari_mar3i
u asked to a proof that god existed i gona let u answer that by urself

if i told u that a man want to cross a river and he waited for ages to find aboat to cross it but he couldnt , suddenly he saw some pieces of wood are gathering and making up aboat , and that man used that boat to cross that river

would u believe this story ?

if u say yes then u are stupid
if u say no then how whole this universe is created ?
is it easier to creat aboat or whole universe ?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Answer me this then.... if God created the universe, who created God?

See, this is exactly the sort of shallow mindedness that I'm talking about. You have absolutely no respect for other peoples beliefs. Why do you find it so difficult to believe that there just might be a higher being beyond human comprehension, and since you don't believe that, why can't you just accept that there are others who do believe it?

Originally posted by Sidla
See, this is exactly the sort of shallow mindedness that I'm talking about. You have absolutely no respect for other peoples beliefs. Why do you find it so difficult to believe that there just might be a higher being beyond human comprehention, and since you don't believe that, why can't you just accept that there are others who do believe it?

I accept that others believe it. I was merely asking a perfectly valid question. Perhaps you could answer it instead?

I won't answer it because I can't answer it. Religion doesn't have an answer for everything, nobody ever said it did.

If you respect that people have the opinion that God created the universe then what's with all the :lol: 's?

Originally posted by Sidla
I won't answer it because I can't answer it. Religion doesn't have an answer for everything, nobody ever said it did.

If you respect that people have the opinion that God created the universe then what's with all the :lol: 's?

I do respect the opinion, I just find the idea laughable.

Funny that. Most things I respect I don't find laughable.

Originally posted by sari_mar3i
u asked to a proof that god existed i gona let u answer that by urself

if i told u that a man want to cross a river and he waited for ages to find aboat to cross it but he couldnt , suddenly he saw some pieces of wood are gathering and making up aboat , and that man used that boat to cross that river

would u believe this story ?

if u say yes then u are stupid
if u say no then how whole this universe is created ?
is it easier to creat aboat or whole universe ?

Huh? What the hell was all that about?

We have so much to thank God for, don't we? Cancer, priest kiddie-fiddlers, sectarian violence, war, famine, poverty, Pop Idol and other similar delights.

Before anyone trots out the old religious cop-out that runs something like "God gave mankind freewill do all those things", don't bother. It's as clapped out and threadbare as the concept of organised religion itself

Originally posted by Sidla
Funny that. Most things I respect I don't find laughable.

So that means that SOME things you respect you also find laughable. It is possible to respect things whilst finding them laughable. e.g. I think the fact that going 32mph in a 30mph zone can result in a £60 fine and points on a licence is laughable, but it is a law and I respect it.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Huh? What the hell was all that about?

We have so much to thank God for, don't we? Cancer, priest kiddie-fiddlers, sectarian violence, war, famine, poverty, Pop Idol and other similar delights.

Before anyone trots out the old religious cop-out that runs something like "God gave mankind freewill do all those things", don't bother. It's as clapped out and threadbare as the concept of organised religion itself


Hear, hear. Now lets see if your opinion gets the same pathetic diatribe that mine attracts. I seriously doubt it somehow.

Originally posted by t020
So that means that SOME things you respect you also find laughable. It is possible to respect things whilst finding them laughable. e.g. I think the fact that going 32mph in a 30mph zone can result in a £60 fine and points on a licence is laughable, but it is a law and I respect it.
Scratch that, if I have respect something then it is not something I find laughable.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Huh? What the hell was all that about?

We have so much to thank God for, don't we? Cancer, priest kiddie-fiddlers, sectarian violence, war, famine, poverty, Pop Idol and other similar delights.

Before anyone trots out the old religious cop-out that runs something like "God gave mankind freewill do all those things", don't bother. It's as clapped out and threadbare as the concept of organised religion itself
No, we don't have God to thank for any of those things.

We do have God to thank for Jesus who taught us how to live like a model human being. I doubt Jesus would have condoned any of the things you listed.

Originally posted by Sidla
No, we don't have God to thank for any of those things.

We do have God to thank for Jesus who taught us how to live like a model human being. I doubt Jesus would have condoned any of the things you listed.

But surely you God-botherers are always telling us that He created mankind in His image?

Therefore He must take responsibility for everything we do?

Change your avatar to an non-sleek car and you might get a little more respect.

Hear me well: I'll blind you with knowledge and street cred also. ..you need a good verbal bashing so as to shame you.

I won't have you intruding in other people's threads the way you do.

Geoff will sack you.

left school with no academic qualifications (regretted it ever since, mind). I pay for my education (as now) and still am doing and will continue to do so.

I might not be able to educate you, but I would feel completely competent to introduce you to a course in the art of not getting other people's back's up.

T, it would be my pleasure.

His responsibility was relinquished when Eve ate the poisoned fruit. Have you not read the bible?

Originally posted by Sidla
No, we don't have God to thank for any of those things.

We do have God to thank for Jesus who taught us how to live like a model human being. I doubt Jesus would have condoned any of the things you listed.

So here we have a God capable of creating a whole Universe, several million different species of plants and animals, etc etc, but not capable of wiping out cancer, paedophilia, POP IDOL(!), etc. Hmm, makes sense to me.

Originally posted by t020
So here we have a God capable of creating a whole Universe, several million different species of plants and animals, etc etc, but not capable of wiping out cancer, paedophilia, POP IDOL(!), etc. Hmm, makes sense to me.
See post above. All human faults are due to humans. Yes, God could intervene if He felt He must, but when you don't believe in Him why should He feel He has to bother?

Anyway, we could argue about this all we want, but you're not ever likely to understand because you don't have the same beliefs as me. Can you not see that argueing against peoples beliefs is the exact thing that causes wars, racial tension and religious hatred?

Originally posted by Sidla
His responsibility was relinquished when Eve ate the poisoned fruit. Have you not read the bible?

Ah! So you're a religious fundamentalist who believes in the Old Testament? That speaks volumes.

These days I seriously doubt if you'd even find many members of the clergy who'd admit to believing a word of that collection of fairy/horror stories

If that were the case then please tell me why less than 5% of the 'Christian' population attend church on a Sunday?

At the end of the day, if you live in a country you stick by the rules and laws set by that country's government.

So you are in favour or against the law which makes daily acts of Christian worship compulsory in state schools in this country ?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Ah! So you're a religious fundamentalist who believes in the Old Testament? That speaks volumes.

These days I seriously doubt if you'd even find many members of the clergy who'd admit to believing a word of that collection of fairy/horror stories
Well no actually, most of the old testament is rubbish IMO. But the explaintion still stands firm.

Ok, from an agnostic point of view. Why do you care what people believe in if it's nothing to do with you. let them.
What is a god anyway? even if we were created by some green dudes on a distant planet, as some experiment, then they would be our god to some extent. Until anyone can explain where we came from, then don't bother banging down others beliefs, when you have nothing more solid yourself than doubt.

Originally posted by Andy78
Ok, from an agnostic point of view. Why do you care what people believe in if it's nothing to do with you. let them.
What is a god anyway? even if we were created by some green dudes on a distant planet, as some experiment, then they would be our god to some extent. Until anyone can explain where we came from, then don't bother banging down others beliefs, when you have nothing more solid yourself than doubt.

I have absolutely no objection to people believing in anything they want. It's just the dogma and the hypocrisy I can't handle. The unshakable belief that they're right and the rest of us non-believers will burn in hell (if, indeed, such a place existed).

Originally posted by mojoworking
The unshakable belief that they're right and the rest of us non-believers will burn in hell (if, indeed, such a place existed).
When has anybody said that? I don't believe any decent person will burn in hell simply for not believing in God.

Also, I don't necessarily believe I'm right. Quite frankly I don't care if I'm right or wrong. I just believe in Jesus and follow his teaching because I think he had a very good philosophy of life. If it was discovered tomorrow that the bible had been made up by some attention seeking kid back in the dark ages, then I would almost certainly still follow the teaching of Jesus.

Thats fair enough sid. You have your beliefs, that you trust in. no one should be able to take that away from you.

The only time i will get angry with a belief is when i'm preached at, and told that i'll burn in hell for not following the bible but that has not haapened on this thread. As Sid suggested, being a good person, is good enough for me.

[Originally posted by Andy78
The only time i will get angry with a belief is when i'm preached at, and told that i'll burn in hell for not following the bible...


How do you feel on Sunday mornings when the door-knocking b*stards wake you up and insist you share their beliefs?

How about the fire and brimstone TV evangelists who are illegally creaming millions of dollars while preaching fear and hatred?

How about all the paedophile priests?

How about all the wars and millions of deaths committed in the name of religion?

As far as I can see religion is little more than a crutch for the weak minded who can't handle the thought that their miserable and pointless lives may be all there is.

Let's not forget that there is also a lot of money to be made by exploiting these sad individuals and convincing them that it would make Jesus happy if they poured their money into the already bulging coffers of the church.

Think of all the poor catholic countries throughout the world: starving Children, rampant disease etc etc.
Then cut to an image of the obscene amounts of gold, jewels and other priceless wealth in the Vatican and other temples to misery throughout the world.

It's an interesting juxtaposition, wouldn't you say?

Rant over

I just remembered something that DOES annoy me about religious dress. Its when I cant see a woman's face because it is completely covered. I expect to be able to see peoples faces. I feel disrespected when someone expects to be able to look at me but wont let me see them. Its like a "two-way" mirror. Isnt it human to expect to see someones face...or is it just me?
Id be surprised if any school let all the pupils go round with their faces covered.... or is that just for married women?...errr I dont know what Im talking about, do I. Duh!

Originally posted by rain
I just remembered something that DOES annoy me about religious dress. Its when I cant see a woman's face because it is completely covered. I expect to be able to see peoples faces. I feel disrespected when someone expects to be able to look at me but wont let me see them. Its like a "two-way" mirror. Isnt it human to expect to see someones face...or is it just me?
Id be surprised if any school let all the pupils go round with their faces covered.... or is that just for married women?...errr I dont know what Im talking about, do I. Duh!
mmm

I dont think you have a right to expect to see someones face, although you may expect to always do so simply by precedent.

Originally posted by mojoworking


How do you feel on Sunday mornings when the door-knocking b*stards wake you up and insist you share their beliefs?

How about the fire and brimstone TV evangelists who are illegally creaming millions of dollars while preaching fear and hatred?

How about all the paedophile priests?

How about all the wars and millions of deaths committed in the name of religion?

As far as I can see religion is little more than a crutch for the weak minded who can't handle the thought that their miserable and pointless lives may be all there is.




Totally.

Originally posted by t020
At the end of the day, if you live in a country you stick by the rules and laws set by that country's government. If Muslim girls feel so strongly about wearing their head scarves, then the answer is simple - move to a muslim country.

I see this attitude time and time again and it really annoys me. Britain and France are both democracies. In a democracy if there is a law or policy that you don't agree with, you stand up and say "I don't agree with this". If enough people agree then eventually the law will change. You don't just up sticks and move to a different country every time you come across a law or policy you don't agree with. The human species would be entirely nomadic if that were the case and we'd never get anything done.

Originally posted by mojoworking
How do you feel on Sunday mornings when the door-knocking b*stards wake you up and insist you share their beliefs?
Do they actually insist? Why don't you just politely thell them that you don't appreciate being told what you should believe?

How about the fire and brimstone TV evangelists who are illegally creaming millions of dollars while preaching fear and hatred?

How about all the wars and millions of deaths committed in the name of religion?
This is all totally irellavent. Is I've already said:
argueing against peoples beliefs is the exact thing that causes wars, racial tension and religious hatred

Let's not forget that there is also a lot of money to be made by exploiting these sad individuals and convincing them that it would make Jesus happy if they poured their money into the already bulging coffers of the church.
I don't know where you're getting your information from, but the 'coffers' of the church are nowhere near 'bulging'. In the past couple of decades many churches have closed down and parishes have had to be merged, because the money can't be raised to provide the clergy and the upkeep of churches.

Nice to see you have all been busy.

I feel I sit on the fence with regards to christianity. I have no desire to dictate to anyone who or what they believe - even those who are blinded by the religion of science :)

I do see much corruption no only within the church but in other religious groups. I do think that the religions all started out with good intentions and have been corupted by mans desire to destroy along the way.
The question is for the world perhaps is what is acceptable level of coruption?

For the most part I think many people try to do what they feel is right - but who dicatates what is right and wrong? So far in the UK it has been controlled by the Christian church and still is. Even T020 is guided by Christian principals that are so ingrained in society that you cannot tell the difference.

Regardless of what you believe there are only three things that are certain - you are born, you live you die. What happens in between has no answers, not certain direction and we are certainly out of the loop with regards to the info.

Moon

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
mmm

I dont think you have a right to expect to see someones face, although you may expect to always do so simply by precedent.

I once attended an art 'happening' about CCTV and the way we are being watched all the time. All the participants went around wearing cat suits and black balaclavas. They were recommending that - as we are all being watched- we should act like were being watched by dressing in character as people who may commit a crime - thus the balaclavas.

I dont have a 'right' to see someones face... but I have a need...dont we all? (unless were blind) Isnt that what a lot of what face muscles do, communicate ourselves and identify us? if we lose that then we are retracting something fundamental.

Originally posted by mojoworking
[

How do you feel on Sunday mornings when the door-knocking b*stards wake you up and insist you share their beliefs?

Think of all the poor catholic countries throughout the world: starving Children, rampant disease etc etc.
Then cut to an image of the obscene amounts of gold, jewels and other priceless wealth in the Vatican and other temples to misery throughout the world.

It's an interesting juxtaposition, wouldn't you say?

Rant over

I definitely see where your argument is coming from, but, Some of your arguments are really little more than "Dalmation arguments", Mojoworking.

You know... "all dalmations are dogs, therfore, all dogs are Dalmations"

Like your "Paedophile Priests" argument.
Some priests have abused their power. That, I would not dispute. But just as the fact is, not all priests are child abusers... not all child abusers are priests.

What about all the good done in awful situations, in some dreadful circumstances by many "unsung heroes"?

Yes, there is obscene wealth in certain quarters which if everyyone followed the teachings of Jesus about being compassionate toward their fellow humans.

Many of the laws brought in, such as the child labour act, which were brought in during the last couple of hundred years, were brought in by deeply convicted christians, (lord Shaftesbury, eg) the education act, the abolition of slavery, and in the last forty years, in the US, the pulling down of racially segregated barriers.

All people need a moral code by which they can order their lives, whether it comes from within or from the credo of their religion.

In Christianity, it is "Love your 'neighbour' as yourself"

in Islam, you are taught in the Q'uraan to act with piety, and treat everyone justly, and honestly with impartiality.("He who gives in charity and fears (Allaah), and in all sincerity testifies to good, We will indeed make smooth for him the path to ease, but he who is a greedy miser and thinks himself self-sufficient and disbelieves in good, We will indeed make his path to adversity easy." surah 92:5-10 )


in Judaism, the teaching is to " And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6v8)

in Jain hinduism (IIRC) the monks carry brooms with them, to sweep the paths where they walk to move insects out of the way, lest they tread on one.

in Wicca, the credo is "An it harm none, do what you will"

In Humanism, they teach the tenets of being compassionate toward their fellow man.

The objection to the certain door-knocking sect, that supposedly come and get you out of bed on a sunday morning wanting to "convert" you... if it's a sunday morning, and if they were "devout" members of this sect, hey would not be knocking on ythe door, they'd be at "church" in their religious-worship "services", so that argument holds about as much water as my sieve! (NB, whilst I have no beef with the Door-knockers themselves, I do object to a) their methods , and b) their intrusiveness.)

I have pals of all creeds, and none.. I have pals of all colours and political persuasions and races. I respect what they believe, and accept their right to believe in that credo/ believe nothing.

Plain talking

Wonderfully put plain talker - you have to wonder tho when documents are released that give details that the vatican protected pheophile priests and that the catholic church is partly responsible for the growth of aids in 3rd world countries because of it's stand on conctraception and thus mis-information on a grand scale!

Originally posted by t020
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Answer me this then.... if God created the universe, who created God?

before i answer u

your question means that u now believed in god and u are now asking me who created the god ?

so are u now believing that there is a god ?

i will answer u later

Not a bad thread so far as everybodies getting quite passionate about this subject. Amazing really how religous dress eventually moves onto the GOD argument. Doe's he or she exist or doesn't he or she exist. For thousands of years the same argument has existed and the argument here and now will never be resolved. If you believe in god and the afterlife, live your life to the best of your asbilities and beliefs, then if heaven is waiting you've cracked it! If not then at least youv'e left a lot of happy people behind you.
If you don't believe and then you rot, well congratulations you were right after all and will probably leave many happy people behind you.
An extremely wealthy but good kind man and a friend of mine once said to someone that at the end of the day we all take up the same amount of space in the ground. He saw himself as no different to anyone else and would treat everyone equally irrespective of wealth, creed, colour or race.
Everyone has their personal take on the subject some have faith some have knowledge some have both.

[Originally posted by Plain Talker
I definitely see where your argument is coming from, but, Some of your arguments are really little more than "Dalmation arguments", Mojoworking.

You know... "all dalmations are dogs, therfore, all dogs are Dalmations"

Like your "Paedophile Priests" argument.
Some priests have abused their power. That, I would not dispute. But just as the fact is, not all priests are child abusers... not all child abusers are priests.



Of course I don't think that ALL priests are kiddie fiddlers. It's just another (significant) part of the picture. Just because my argument doesn't hinge on this one issue, doesn't mean that it's not important. The fact that the church bent over backwards to protect the priests shows how morally bankrupt and totally hypocritical this so-called "caring" organisation really is.
The whole concept doesn't add up when you think about it: take a bunch of men and ask them to live celibate lives because this will, er, make God happy (this is very important if you're a Christian, apparently). Then put said men in charge of a load of young boys. Yeah, right. That must have sounded like a great idea to someone at the time.


The objection to the certain door-knocking sect, that supposedly come and get you out of bed on a Sunday morning wanting to "convert" you... if it's a sunday morning, and if they were "devout" members of this sect, hey would not be knocking on ythe door, they'd be at "church" in their religious-worship "services", so that argument holds about as much water as my sieve! (NB, whilst I have no beef with the Door-knockers themselves, I do object to a) their methods , and b) their intrusiveness.)

Plain talking [/B]


Not sure of your argument here. It's not my place to argue whether the door knockers are "devout" or not. I don't give a stuff. All I know is that they do exist; they do knock on doors and they definitely want to share some 'wonderful information' with me. What a bloody cheek.

Why?

Maybe I should go around knocking on doors, or accosting passers-by in the street to tell them about the things I really, really like: My family, my dog, The Beatles, my job etc. I'm being facetious here, but you get my drift.

If these people are happy in their beliefs, fine, that's great. But it's the need to share their happiness with me that I can't handle

Originally posted by Siân
So you are in favour or against the law which makes daily acts of Christian worship compulsory in state schools in this country ?

No such law exists, but if it did, I would obey the law if I expected to stay in the country.

Originally posted by sari_mar3i
before i answer u

your question means that u now believed in god and u are now asking me who created the god ?

so are u now believing that there is a god ?

i will answer u later

Absolutely not. I'm asking, *IF* a God existed and created everything, who created the God? Keyword there is *IF*. Now you can answer the question.

Originally posted by t020
Absolutely not. I'm asking, *IF* a God existed and created everything, who created the God? Keyword there is *IF*. Now you can answer the question.

Aah, yes, but the key word here is "later" t020. She will answer you "later" and probably in a cryptic style that is halfway between a text message and a Prince song title by the looks of it. I, for one, can't wait.

Originally posted by t020
Absolutely not. I'm asking, *IF* a God existed and created everything, who created the God? Keyword there is *IF*. Now you can answer the question.

t020 man if u saying that god is not existed then why u are asking who created it

if something is not existed how can we ask who make it or creat it

it is then a silly question to ask while u not believing in god

i hope that u get my idea



my answer to t020 question who created god ?

first of all god is not human or like other creatures we know not similar to them at all
god doesnt have any human charecters so god does not have limits to its power nor to its knowlegde
god lives for ever , he will not die ,

god is the one who created the universe and organised it and he controlls everything ,


so we cant say who created god cos god doesnt need someone to create him we need to be created and other creatures as well but not the god

Originally posted by sari_mar3i
t020 man if u saying that god is not existed then why u are asking who created it

if something is not existed how can we ask who make it or creat it

it is then a silly question to ask while u not believing in god



god is the one who created the universe and organised it and he controlls everything ,


so we cant say who created god cos god doesnt need someone to create him we need to be created and other creatures as well but not the god

Its not religion that causes all the problems, its brainwashed nutters who follow like sheep and dont stop to work anything out for themselves. Just because all your familly and freinds beleive in something doesnt mean we all have to do it. Get your own identity and the life that may go with it.


GGGEEERRRONIMOOO

Originally posted by mojoworking
Of course I don't think that ALL priests are kiddie fiddlers. It's just another (significant) part of the picture.
Can you just stop with this completly lame and totally pathetic argument???? You surely don't believe that any sane Christian would condone peadophillia?

I am going to say this once more, since nobody seems to be commenting on the statement. It is not religion that causes hatred in this world, it's disagreement about and between religions. If these could be cast aside then there would be no problems.

Originally posted by geronimo
Its not religion that causes all the problems, its brainwashed nutters who follow like sheep and dont stop to work anything out for themselves. Just because all your familly and freinds beleive in something doesnt mean we all have to do it. Get your own identity and the life that may go with it.
Or put more simply; believe what you want, and don't question the beliefs of others.

Originally posted by Sidla
Can you just stop with this completly lame and totally pathetic argument???? You surely don't believe that any sane Christian would condone peadophillia?

I am going to say this once more, since nobody seems to be commenting on the statement. It is not religion that causes hatred in this world, it's disagreement about and between religions. If these could be cast aside then there would be no problems.

Not quite correct. In fact much of the hatred in this world is caused by religious groups claiming that their god is better than the other religious groups gods and killing each other in order to prove it. ie Northern Ireland, Middle East etc

I would stop with the priest argument, except when some of the very people who run and control your religion are involved in paedophilia (and many of the rest are covering up and protecting them), it's a little hard to take it seriously

Originally posted by mojoworking
[

How do you feel on Sunday mornings when the door-knocking b*stards wake you up and insist you share their beliefs?

How about the fire and brimstone TV evangelists who are illegally creaming millions of dollars while preaching fear and hatred?

How about all the paedophile priests?

How about all the wars and millions of deaths committed in the name of religion?

As far as I can see religion is little more than a crutch for the weak minded who can't handle the thought that their miserable and pointless lives may be all there is.

Let's not forget that there is also a lot of money to be made by exploiting these sad individuals and convincing them that it would make Jesus happy if they poured their money into the already bulging coffers of the church.

Think of all the poor catholic countries throughout the world: starving Children, rampant disease etc etc.
Then cut to an image of the obscene amounts of gold, jewels and other priceless wealth in the Vatican and other temples to misery throughout the world.

It's an interesting juxtaposition, wouldn't you say?

Rant over

my oh my! i made a simple comment saying let everyone believe in what they want to. and you, my friend, seems to believe that the world is about to fall apart .

i am just a simple person, happy with his life.

you seem to think that the world is about to fall to bollo*ks around you.

To be honest, i dont care either way. I'm happy with my life. I'm happy with the fact that other people are happy with theirs.

If you think everything is going to crap, cool.

as it happens, as many faults in this world that there may be, I thank anyone for the fact that i'm a part of it.

And i thank any god that i'm not as bitter as you!

long live being happy!

No such law exists, but if it did, I would obey the law if I expected to stay in the country

Actually it does ( I didn't say attendance was compulsory)

The 1988 Education Reform Act lays down the legal obligations of the UK school - ina County school it should be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character, reflecting the broad traditions of Christian belief, without being denominational. In a voluntary school the governors decide its character and content;


Although it is possible for people to opt out state schools are legally required to provide it (whether or not staff members actually are Christian themselves) and of course it leaves those who do choose to opt out, for whatever reasonand I'm including atheism here, distanced in more ways than one from the majority that do

The reason I asked the question was that you pointed out how incongruous it is for the UK to call itself a Christian country judging by the percentage of practicing Christians there are here.

So do you think the law should be changed ?

Collective Worship Legal Requirements (http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/assemblies/legal.htm)

Originally posted by Andy78
my oh my! i made a simple comment saying let everyone believe in what they want to. and you, my friend, seems to believe that the world is about to fall apart .


I never said the world is about to fall apart. Where did you get that from?

I was just trying to rein in the god-botherers who try and tell us that the fairy stories they believe in are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I also pointed out some of the sinister goings-on associated with organised religion. If that intrudes on your idyllic life, then I'm sorry. Just look away and pretend it's not happening and everything will be OK

Originally posted by geronimo
Its not religion that causes all the problems, its brainwashed nutters who follow like sheep and dont stop to work anything out for themselves.

i agree with u in this point

Originally posted by geronimo

Just because all your familly and freinds beleive in something doesnt mean we all have to do it. Get your own identity and the life that may go with it.



in this bit i did not ask u to follow me only i answering t020 for his question thats it . i do believe that everyone has the right to believe in anything he wants and no one can force him to believe in something else

Originally posted by mojoworking
Not quite correct. In fact much of the hatred in this world is caused by religious groups claiming that their god is better than the other religious groups gods and killing each other in order to prove it. ie Northern Ireland, Middle East etc



how told u that

its true that everyone thinks his religion is better than others and thats normal but u will not find a religion that asking its follower to kill non-believer in it . If u find , then that religion is wrong and we should all fight it and stop it

So far I've seen a lot of conflicting argument within this thread, however, not one yet has either threatened or challenged my faith or belief. I'm happy to see so many different views out there, as all this should lead to an harmonious agreement one day. Imagine if all the world talked as we're doing! Then after a few centuries we'd probably all believe in the same thing and would have solved our problems through communication, understanding and mutual respect.
The new religion would then no doubt be based on love!
Oh hang on! perhaps thats not a new idea after all!

Originally posted by mojoworking
Not quite correct. In fact much of the hatred in this world is caused by religious groups claiming that their god is better than the other religious groups gods and killing each other in order to prove it. ie Northern Ireland, Middle East etc
Isn't this exactly what I said??
Originally posted by Sidla
It is not religion that causes hatred in this world, it's disagreement about and between religions. If these could be cast aside then there would be no problems.
Also, most of the religions in the world believe in the same God anyway, so try and get your facts straight.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I would stop with the priest argument, except when some of the very people who run and control your religion are involved in paedophilia (and many of the rest are covering up and protecting them), it's a little hard to take it seriously
Like who? Do you have any proof? If so then go to the police instead of spouting off about it on here. As I said no sane Christian would condone peadophillia and if you seriously believe they do then you're very shallow minded.

Originally posted by sari_mar3i
t020 man if u saying that god is not existed then why u are asking who created it

if something is not existed how can we ask who make it or creat it

it is then a silly question to ask while u not believing in god

i hope that u get my idea



my answer to t020 question who created god ?

first of all god is not human or like other creatures we know not similar to them at all
god doesnt have any human charecters so god does not have limits to its power nor to its knowlegde
god lives for ever , he will not die ,

god is the one who created the universe and organised it and he controlls everything ,


so we cant say who created god cos god doesnt need someone to create him we need to be created and other creatures as well but not the god


:lol: How can you honestly expect me to take you seriously with an argument like that?!

It's only stupid becuase you don't believe it.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I never said the world is about to fall apart. Where did you get that from?

I was just trying to rein in the god-botherers who try and tell us that the fairy stories they believe in are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I also pointed out some of the sinister goings-on associated with organised religion. If that intrudes on your idyllic life, then I'm sorry. Just look away and pretend it's not happening and everything will be OK

to be fair, i was completely wrecked when i wrote that.

I dont care about any of this unless it infringes in my idyllic life.

Yup, head in the sand is the way to go. I'm happy and just dont care.

Still, whats wrong with being happy and letting everyone get on with their lives. I really dont want to stress about what others believe in. Thats their life, not mine.

well,
What should the situation be in france
you cant have christmas off, or easter, or or godd frida`or most of the other, cause in essence they are christian celebrations!
or the alternative: we shoudl celebrate all the religious celebrations by having a day off at school!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that each one of us shoud be able to take one day off from time to time for their own religious celebrations, catch up on the work missed , without having to be scared of the consequences.
If i want to dye my hair pink and go to school, it is my own hair. if i want to shave it well still my own....
as far as i dont force anybody else to follow my example ...
all this is pretty simple: let be a person who is not imposing her clothing or appearance to you and you wont create a bunch of kids excluded fron our society

To get back to the original topic or poll,

Nearly 50% of the people who have voted have said that they are against religious dress in schools and workplaces.

I find that just a little bit weird, am I the only one?

What is it about clothing you find so sinister and threatening.

If kids were coming to school in Nazi regalia, I might understand it.

And of course, your right to wear religious dress is enshrined in law anyway, so you are talking about changing the law.

I am assuming that you all believe in good solid reasons for changing this law, because I have yet to see any.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Nearly 50% of the people who have voted have said that they are against religious dress in schools and workplaces.

I find that just a little bit weird, am I the only one?

What is it about clothing you find so sinister and threatening.

Yes, i find it very weird too! Am having trouble understanding this concept.

just out of intrest as anyone had any meseges in there pm box on the subject of this thread:confused:

so we can say that 50% supporting the action to prevent any religious dress in schools

Originally posted by sari_mar3i
so we can say that 50% supporting the action to prevent any religious dress in schools

yes i think we can. i'm still with phan here in the fact that i find this very weird indeed. If 50% of the people get upset with clothing, what can you do?

Oh well, i best make sure i wear agreeable clothing in the future, or i might get battered! Wounder!