Forget which programme it was but on Radio 5 over the weekend I caught a snippet of a interview with some University lecturer in social politics or something, who happened to mention Sheffield as a example of whatever it was he was discussing on the subject of social/financial structures of post war cities in the UK. The essence of which is below.....be interesting to get some views on this....I am sure this has been mentioned before on TV or radio in some in-depth social investigations.....

Sheffied is one of the prime examples of a City where the housing and income polarities are the most extreme, but also remarkably close to each other with barely, in some areas, any 'pivotal' point or 'cross-over' between districts which normally mix from poor to wealthier housing and income across a scale proportionate to the overall size of the City and population. Apparently in S17 it is possible to find poor Council housing and incomes below the minimum wage, within 500 metres of houses with a value of over half a million with swimming pools and occupied By Company directors.......dont know where these facts cam from or if they are just conjecture??

The only area I can think of is around Totley Brook where it bleneds with Dore, but I would not have thought the extremes were as noticeable as those indicated?

What do you think about the so called 'housing and income polarities' in Sheffield and are they in fact, any more extreme than other Cities?

I'd say that was incorrect. The polarities do exist in Sheffield, but the boundaries are obvious. Yes, there are a FEW low income council families in places like Totley but quite rare. Infact, Sheffield is known for the way in which the affluent suburbs are all clustered together (hence the Sheffield Hallam constituency being the wealthiest outside the SE).

If my memory serves me correctly, four of Sheffield's wards are within the poorest 100 in England and Wales (out of a total of over 8,000). This, I recall, is measured by such things as income, health, and similar.

Meanwhile, Hallam constituency is apparently one of the top ten richest areas in the whole country, measured by earned income. Within these wealthy areas, there are pockets of deprivation, cheek by jowl with the rich.

The disparity across the city is so great that if you grow up in Dore, Totley, Fulwood, Ranmoor or similar suburbs, you are likely to live 10 years longer than folk who grow up in Burngreave, Manor, Arbourthorne, Firth Park and similar suburbs.

Makes you think.

Originally posted by goldenfleece
Apparently in S17 it is possible to find poor Council housing and incomes below the minimum wage, within 500 metres of houses with a value of over half a million with swimming pools and occupied By Company directors.......dont know where these facts cam from or if they are just conjecture??

The only area I can think of is around Totley Brook where it bleneds with Dore, but I would not have thought the extremes were as noticeable as those indicated?

What do you think about the so called 'housing and income polarities' in Sheffield and are they in fact, any more extreme than other Cities?

Yes - I'd say that your affluent areas are clustered together - with Whirlow/Greystones/Ecclesall etc, etc, and the 'deprived' areas being grouped together - although they are slightly more spread out - say Woodhouse in the SE, and then Wincobank in the NE.

It is true that due to the wind blows that the affluent areas are in the SW as the wind blows the crap towards the industry - found in the NE of a city; this is true with us, here in Bexley, Blackfen (your Millhouses/Beauchief) is in the SW of the borough, whilst Barnehurst is positioned in the north (ish) where your Firth Park is - yet it is worlds apart.

Most other places have poorer/affluent parts spread further.

An example of this is with Bromley - it has Chislehurst and Elmstead Woods (like your Fulwood), and Petts Wood in the centre - like your Beauchief.... spread out...

Originally posted by redrobbo


The disparity across the city is so great that if you grow up in Dore, Totley, Fulwood, Ranmoor or similar suburbs, you are likely to live 10 years longer than folk who grow up in Burngreave, Manor, Arbourthorne, Firth Park and similar suburbs.

And if you ARE unlucky enough to live in any of the latter areas, you may die younger but that is still much too long! :gag: Kill me!!!:suspect:

this is true with us, here in Bexley, Blackfen (your Millhouses/Beauchief) is in the SW of the borough, whilst Barnehurst is positioned in the north (ish) where your Firth Park is - yet it is worlds apart.
An example of this is with Bromley - it has Chislehurst and Elmstead Woods (like your Fulwood), and Petts Wood in the centre - like your Beauchief.... spread out... [/B]

Interesting point Kentboy........I know Bromley fairly well as got relations there, and used to live in Canterbury myself in the 'garden of England'.

Originally posted by kentboy119
Yes - I'd say that your affluent areas are clustered together - with Whirlow/Greystones/Ecclesall etc, etc, and the 'deprived' areas being grouped together - although they are slightly more spread out - say Woodhouse in the SE, and then Wincobank in the NE.

But you've also got areas of deprivation in the South West of Sheffield - Low Edges, Batemoor etc are not that far from Millhouses.

You're right, Kentboy, that the affluent areas are in the South West because that was where the clean air was. The deprived areas tended to be clustered around the East End and city centre because that's where the industry, where people worked was.

Nowadays, the deprived areas are the places where there was available land to build council housing when slums were cleared. Areas like the Manor, Arbourthorne, Parson Cross, which would all have been fields previously.

Originally posted by goldenfleece
Interesting point Kentboy........I know Bromley fairly well as got relations there, and used to live in Canterbury myself in the 'garden of England'.

I have a friend on the New Eltham / Chislehurst border, a relative in Elmstead Woods and a relative in Barham near Canterbury - small world!

Originally posted by Andy
But you've also got areas of deprivation in the South West of Sheffield - Low Edges, Batemoor etc are not that far from Millhouses.

You're right, Kentboy, that the affluent areas are in the South West because that was where the clean air was. The deprived areas tended to be clustered around the East End and city centre because that's where the industry, where people worked was.

Nowadays, the deprived areas are the places where there was available land to build council housing when slums were cleared. Areas like the Manor, Arbourthorne, Parson Cross, which would all have been fields previously.

It's a lot to do with the direction of the prevailing winds, across the UK, that blew the pollution away from the affluent areas in most towns and cities.

This is why in most towns and cities, you'll find the "better" areas in the west and southerly side, and the industry and pollution in the eastern side.

PT

What makes Sheffield unique is that the affluent areas are within the city boundaries. Go to other major cities and you'll find that those on higher incomes tend to migrate away from the city. Such as in Manchester, or rather not, where the 'money' lives in Cheshire.

What is about Sheffield that people want to live here irrespective of income?

What is about Sheffield that people want to live here irrespective of income? [/B]

Unlike Manchester, Sheffield is not comprised of huge quantities of 'satellite' towns...Manchester, in essence, is surrounded by them, so its far more mobile in terms of its commuter belt. Sheffield only has a few 'sattelite' towns, if you know what mean by that term, but I would not call any of them COMMUTER towns for the City. In Manchester, the surrounding towns tend to me commuter belts for the City of Manchester, ie Bury, Stockport, etc, and also Manchester has a far far superior local rail commuter network than Sheffield, so it tends to encourage the affluent to migrate out of the City and into Cheshire, Derbyshire, Lancashire and extreme edge of West Yorkshire. The frequency of train services to the surrounding towns is very high and ideal for almost London style commuting..

Sheffield simply does not have a system of commuter sattelite towns to feed it, so there is nowhere to migrate to in terms of decent commuter transport.

I think that this 'polarity' definietly exists in Sheffield, you only have to look at some specific examples. In Broomhall you have the council flats sitting right next to large and very expensive Victorian mansions, often occupied by academics. In the city centre we have new apartments selling at well over £150k, next door to council flats available for cheap rents; a similar thing may be happening at Norfolk Park with the new private housing.

Nether Edge is another example, large detached houses in extensive grounds close to old terraces and a lot of houses in multiple occupation. Jordanthorpe and Batemoor aren't very far from Beauchief; a beautiful place to put a council estate but not very convenient when bus fares are so expensive - which means people are effectively stuck there if they can't afford to get to town.

Places like Dore and Totley do hide their poverty quite well. A number of those houses will be divided up into flats and might not look like the homes of poor people at first glance. And some residents (e.g. pensioners) may have lived there for years and be in genteel decline, barely making ends meet. Even in ordinary areas nowadays you get well off people living right next door to those with little. This is simply due to the rising cost of houses. As prices go up, higher earners have to buy in the kind of areas they may not have sought to live in previously, and often live next door to people who moved i when the area was 'cheap'.

Originally posted by redrobbo


The disparity across the city is so great that if you grow up in Dore, Totley, Fulwood, Ranmoor or similar suburbs, you are likely to live 10 years longer than folk who grow up in Burngreave, Manor, Arbourthorne, Firth Park and similar suburbs.

Makes you think.

It does, - perhaps it's a secret govt. early release scheme ?

I imagine for those consigned to poverty in their old age a ten year reduction in sentence will be quite a relief. And of course it reduces the tax burden on the rich. :D

Originally posted by redrobbo
Meanwhile, Hallam constituency is apparently one of the top ten richest areas in the whole country, measured by earned income. Within these wealthy areas, there are pockets of deprivation, cheek by jowl with the rich.



Probably not in hallam constituency but I noticed this on Saturday last. The difference between Psalter Lane and adjoining Sharrow area is enormous and they are literally butted onto each other.

Originally posted by goldenfleece
What do you think about the so called 'housing and income polarities' in Sheffield and are they in fact, any more extreme than other Cities?

I hadn't given much thought to the housing polarities in Sheffield being extreme at all; but then I did live in Liverpool for a decade, which has a housing / income polarity just as great.

For instance, in South Liverpool, you've got the deprived Granby wards of Toxteth and Dingle just minutes away from the lovely mansions of Sefton Park heading towards Mossley Hill and Woolton. Then there are the pricey Docklands apartments and large executive homes of Grassendale Park a little further south towards the river.

Leaving the city centre and heading towards the East of the City, you've got a small number of posh streets around Newsham Park literally surrounded on three sides by the scally-ridden terraced streets of Kensington, Fairfield and Tuebrook.

Travel a little further North East and you've got the large detached homes of Sandfield Park, where several local football players are / were rumoured to live.

In fact, as property prices in Liverpool rocket, several new housing estates are being built on brownfield sites all over the city... complete with large fences to keep out the local riff raff (much cheaper than relocating to a nicer area, I expect!).

Thinking about it now, Liverpool not only has a greater housing / income polarity, but it is more noticable, as unlike Sheffield, the polarity is scattered across the city (all part of the Liverpool Poverty Belt as I call it) and the areas are much closer together.

That's it from me :)

At a 'Sheffield Council' training day a year or so back, we were told that Sheffield misses out on a lot of the grants that, for example, Leeds gets becuase Sheffield Hallam bumps up the 'average' wealth of the city. Sheffield is therefore, on paper, less deprived than Leeds and misses out on government monies that it would otherwise receive. And this is despite there being lots of deprived areas in Sheffield.

Is this still the case? If so, it means that the wealthy in this city are, in a sense, making the poor worse off...

Chicken Monkey x

Originally posted by Greybeard
And of course it reduces the tax burden on the rich. :D

Will cuts in public services ever lead to a fall in tax rates again?

Unlikely... they just find summat else to spend it on!

Originally posted by max
What makes Sheffield unique is that the affluent areas are within the city boundaries.

But it wasn't always so. Many of the 'affluent' areas were not encircled by the city boundary until after the first world war. Dore, Totley, Beauchief, Bradway etc. were in rural Derbyshire until relatively recent times.

The large houses along the Abbeydale corridor, with Dore Road, and Twentywell Lane were built to take advantage of the easy access to town by train and the mass housing closer to the centre arose in conjunction with the extension of the tram out to Millhouses.

The Sheffield Borough map of 1888 is available on-line

http://www.londonancestor.com/maps/maps-england.htm

- (near the bottom of the page) and gives an interesting view of the essentailly rural aspect of western Sheffield at that time.

Originally posted by Mo
Probably not in hallam constituency but I noticed this on Saturday last. The difference between Psalter Lane and adjoining Sharrow area is enormous and they are literally butted onto each other.

The result of the way the land was sold off for development. Sharrow Vale in small lots to spec builders, - the area from Psalter Lane up to Brincliffe Edge was intentionally developed as a 'posh' estate for the richer folk.

Now known as Nether Edge but much of it lies in the ancient Sharrow Moor ;)

Originally posted by Abdul
Will cuts in public services ever lead to a fall in tax rates again?



Nope, - but the premature deaths of impoverished pensioners helps to stop them going up ;)

Originally posted by Mo
Probably not in hallam constituency but I noticed this on Saturday last. The difference between Psalter Lane and adjoining Sharrow area is enormous and they are literally butted onto each other.

That road behind Psalter Lane looks pretty grim - Sharrow Vale Road is it?

:)

Originally posted by Mo
Probably not in hallam constituency but I noticed this on Saturday last. The difference between Psalter Lane and adjoining Sharrow area is enormous and they are literally butted onto each other.


Hallam has to have boundaries - things brighten up when crossing from outside them into the Hallam zone. They should celebrate the crossing by introducing special road markings and signs. :D

On the flip side, when leaving Hallam they should warn drivers to lock their car doors and be prepared for depressing scenes.

Tongue in cheek before anyone jumps in!