I believe that all day drinking has spoilt the pub atmosphere.

When pubs opened from 11am to 3pm and 5.30pm to 10.30pm
(12 noon to 2pm and 7pm to 10.30pm on Sundays)
it concentrated people together to socialise.

Nowadays you can arrive at 8pm just as people are leaving because they have been getting tanked up all afternoon.

They should have left things alone just extended the 10 minute drinking-up time to 11pm.

:(

I heard that the drinking laws we have at the moment were put in place to make sure that the common man couldn't get into the pub before he started work in the morning.

Many say that the laws are archaic and need to be changed to reflec the fact that people work different hours and require freedom to patronise pubs and bars at their convenience.

Others might hint that it's an attempt on the part of the brewing trade to lobby for changes that allow them to maximise profits by opening their doors for as long as possible.

Which do you think?

Originally posted by Carmine

Which do you think?


Maximise profit.

i still dont understand why alcohol is allowed and taking drus is not, when most violences are done by drunks not ppl addicted to drugs.
:/

Originally posted by Bluelunar
i still dont understand why alcohol is allowed and taking drugs is not, when most violences are done by drunks not ppl addicted to drugs.
:/


From tomorrow all alcohol will be banned and all drugs legalised.


Utter chaos.


That's why.

Originally posted by Bluelunar
i still dont understand why alcohol is allowed and taking drus is not, when most violences are done by drunks not ppl addicted to drugs.
:/


ive never heard of anyone whos been broken into by persons after money for drink:loopy:

>> Maximise profit.

What's wrong with that, though?

Basis of current licensing laws dates back to WW1 - the government didn't want the munitions workers drunk.

Am comfortable with the all day opening - rarely drink before 9:30 pm (married with kids) - but like to pop for a couple of pints with colleagues from work at 5ish on occassional Friday - plus when I get the odd Sunday to myself I like to watch the footy in the pub.

Opening to midnight Friday & Saturday might be useful - along with standardising Sundays to 11 pm closing - if only to save the embarrasment of the large numbers of students who walk in to my local at 10:45 and look bemused to find time has been called.

Alcohol and tobacco are "good" drugs...

Cannabis, LSD, magic mushrooms are "bad" drugs...

Oh, coincidentaly the former are taxed by the government and the latter are not...that might have something to do with it, do you think?

There's nothing at all wrong with pubs staying open as long as they want to make as much profit as possible.

The individual has a responsibility to ensure that they know their own tolerance levels and keep within their limitations.

What narks me is the fact that while this is true of ciggies and drink, the government tries to tell us that they are protecting society from addiction and organised crime by keeping other drugs illegal.

If we can be responsible with addictive substances like tobacco and alcohol, then why not with cannabis, for example?

Hardly think it would be ethical to tax illegal substances. However, if certain drugs were legal you can be sure they would be taxed to the hilt.

I live in the Isle of Man, we have 24 hour licensing as does most of Europe. Now that's the good idea :).

Same as Ibiza ;)

Get up at 10am, get drunk in the hotel bar. Act a prat on the beach all day and return home for something to eat at 1pm. Back to the beach/pool with more alcohol. Then head back to the hotel. get changed and showered and then out for a meal at 6pm. Get 100% lashed by midnight in bars and continue on throughout the night. Bars stay open all night (have to close at 4, but never do). Pop to the spar for some water and munchies at 6am and get in bed by 6.30. Sleep for 3.5 hours.

I loved every minute of it. :)

Saying that I couldn't do it for more than 2 weeks a year.

Back to the point, I think pubs should stay open until at least midnight, and 11pm on Sundays. If they want to stay open all-day then it's no skin off of my back.

Originally posted by Terminator
Hardly think it would be ethical to tax illegal substances. However, if certain drugs were legal you can be sure they would be taxed to the hilt.

The USA do it, if you deal in illegal drugs you are supposed to buy drug stamps to cover the tax on them. The stamps are supposed to be fixed to the container (bag, wrap etc.) that the drug is sold on in. Basically they introduced it to make it easier for convictions, even if they can't get a good dealing conviction, they can slap 'em with tax evasion. Only in America eh.........

Back on topic.... Personally I think pubs should be able to open whenever they want. People work some strange hours and just as they might want to go shopping at 6am at Sainsburys they might want to go for a pint at 6am too. Everything else is going 24 hour, why shouldn't pubs. Should get rid of the kick out time punch ups as well :)

Yes, I'll drink to that. Let them open whenever they want and then when they eventually do try to close, force them to stay open for a little bit longer.

Oh, yes!

Sounds like a cunning plan Sam...

Or they could actually make it illegal for pubs to close.

Ever.

Now that sounds more like it.

So long as certain pubs are exempt...such as S1.

Right, I've been silent on this one for too long!

This issue is discussed and to some extent frowned upon by many publicans around the country. For most, closing at 11pm is fine simply because when the landlord has been working all day then s/he wants to get to bed too!

24 hour drinking when it does come into force will mean that a few pubs will stay open for those on shifts but I expect that most will keep to similar hours.

It will be useful to not have to apply to the magistrates court for the odd hour extension for birthday celebrations. Currently the only way that pubs can get extensions to hours is by paying a tenner to the courts and to have a letter from the person celebrating their 'special' birthday. By special it can only be extended for an 18th, 21st, 30th, 40th, 50th, etc. Extensions are also granted for special events - charity events with appropriate documentation, weddings, etc. They can be very strict about granting these extensions. Changes in the law will make this easier to sort out from the publican's point of view.

I cannot see pubs generally staying open all hours - most people work traditional daytime hours and wouldn't wish to party all night in a pub. I expect some pubs will extend their hours at weekends - but it's down to the discretion of the landlord.

I suggest for the time being, that if you want to drink longer, you should arrive earlier!

I suggest for the time being, that if you want to drink longer, you should arrive earlier!




spot on :)

The licensing law reform is to make the system a little more flexible so pubs can apply for a licence to open hours appropriate to it's business and customer demand.

For example a City Centre pub might want to open until midnight on a Friday and Saturday night to cater for those who want to be out later, but want to be somewhere relaxed with good beer, not stood rammed in a crowd drinking rubbish beer with loud music. Or you might have a pub that can't justify opening late but does good food trade, which might want to open early to do breakfasts. Or a pub located in an area with lots of shift workers who want to go in a normal pub after work at silly o clock in the morning. Live music bars who may want to open an hour longer so the band doesn't have to stop abruptly at 11pm.

I could think of many more examples put I'm sure you get the idea - it isn't a charter for 24 hour drinking sessions, just simply a more common sense approach than applying an arbitury time to all pubs regardless of what customers want.

Also as responsibility for issuing licenses will move from the courts to the council it means when deciding hours the area can be taken into account, so for example a local pub built into a row of cottages isn't open until 2 in the morning keeping the neighbours awake! And of course new pub openings will not conflict with the city plan......(I would hope).

Originally posted by Classic Rock
I cannot see pubs generally staying open all hours - most people work traditional daytime hours and wouldn't wish to party all night in a pub.
People used to say similar things about 24hr supermarkets.

Originally posted by Mike
People used to say similar things about 24hr supermarkets.

It's hardly busy in the middle of the night in a supermarket though. Additionally supermarkets do tend to attract people more than pubs.

I would welcome 24 hour drinking and believe that it should be brought in a soon as possible.

It doesn't mean you have to drink around the clock, does it? Nor does it mean that a pub has to stay open 24 hours per day.

Pubs could tailor their opening hours to suit the needs of their clientele.

Simple.

Originally posted by Andy C
Live music bars who may want to open an hour longer so the band doesn't have to stop abruptly at 11pm.



Also as responsibility for issuing licenses will move from the courts to the council it means when deciding hours the area can be taken into account, so for example a local pub built into a row of cottages isn't open until 2 in the morning keeping the neighbours awake! And of course new pub openings will not conflict with the city plan......(I would hope).

the entertainments licence usually states that performances finish at 11 anyway if the pub is in a residetial area, no matter what time it closes.

the problem as i see it with passing the licencing to the council,is that as much as we would like to think it wont happen,vested interests are going to be involved in the granting/renewal of licences.

a nice little pub in ecclesfield (The Griffin) has been shut down recently and tho its up for sale,the likelyhood of a licence being granted are virtually nil. not because there were street fights outside it or brawls inside,or that the landlord flouted the after burn rules.

the reasons given are that two ladies living in a flat next door said it was too noisey(this from a pub that was hardly packed to the rafters) and even if the new owners pay for soundproofing it is unlikely the council will grant a licence as basically the parish council dont want it there(along with these two ladies)

the sad part of this story is that the griffin has been there for hundreds of years,its part of the heritage of ecclesfield and its now gone. granting/ refusing licences could now be a vote winner for certain areas of the city now the council has responsibility for it instead of the independant magistrates bench

Exactly Sam, basically it should be your choice when you drink and the landlords choice when he/she wants to sell it to you :)

I think pubs should be allowed to open and close whenever the landlord wants in an effort to balance his working hours with the needs of the regular clientelle. There are bars in downtown Manhatten (where a lot of people work and almost noone lives) that keep very strange hours indeed.

Equally, I'd like to go into a 24 hour supermarket at 3am and buy a few bottles of beer.

Originally posted by gizmo

A nice little pub in ecclesfield (The Griffin) has been shut down recently and tho its up for sale, the likelyhood of a licence being granted are virtually nil. Not because there were street fights outside it or brawls inside, or that the landlord flouted the after burn rules.




Those were the days (http://www.spick.co.uk/griffin.htm)

There were times when The Griffin was so popular it was impossible to get in.

Originally posted by Andy C
The licensing law reform is to make the system a little more flexible so pubs can apply for a licence to open hours appropriate to it's business and customer demand.

Unfortunately, I think that it will inevitably mean that pubs will end up being pressured into longer hours together with the associated overheads without the prospect of selling a single extra pint.

I believe that the upshot will be a new round of pubs going out of business.

Originally posted by Andy C
Also as responsibility for issuing licenses will move from the courts to the council it means when deciding hours the area can be taken into account, so for example a local pub built into a row of cottages isn't open until 2 in the morning keeping the neighbours awake! And of course new pub openings will not conflict with the city plan......(I would hope).

This is already the case under the current system. Any (new) pub / bar / restaurant has to receive planning consent from the local council before it can apply for a licence. The trouble with the council issuing licences is that they won’t be able to resist playing petty politics with the system.

Originally posted by Indigogo
Those were the days (http://www.spick.co.uk/griffin.htm)

There were times when The Griffin was so popular it was impossible to get in.

Crips, I spent many happy inebriated hours in there in the 80's during its heyday.

Originally posted by Tony


I believe that the upshot will be a new round of pubs going out of business.
The trouble with the council issuing licences is that they won’t be able to resist playing petty politics with the system.

yes i quite agree,and ill bet any money you like this is exactly what is going to happen.

this is what has killed the griffin,and the word on the street is that the empty building is to be bought by a parish councilor and not to be reopened as a pub, all done legitimately of course.

i like many others are furious this has been allowed to happen.

i stood before the licencing magistrates a few times to get a licence,harsh they were but you knew they were impartial

Seeing as pub closures is quite a current topic, those talking about the Griffin may like to write an article on the subject and submit it to be published in CAMRA's Beer Matters magazine - the editor is always looking out for contributions.

www.sheffieldcamra.co.uk

Andy C - I'm not sure that CAMRA would like to hear about my exploits in the Griffin. It mainly involved large quantities of cooking lager and girls. :D

Originally posted by gizmo
i stood before the licencing magistrates a few times to get a licence,harsh they were but you knew they were impartial
Whereas, councillors as a breed have absolutely no compunction at using whatever is the topic of the month in their ward to further their, and thier parties interests. This will be a sad day for our pubs and bars in places like Sheffield.

Originally posted by Tony
Whereas, councillors as a breed have absolutely no compunction at using whatever is the topic of the month in their ward to further their, and thier parties interests. This will be a sad day for our pubs and bars in places like Sheffield.

well said Tony, its better to know you been granted or denied your licence on the letter of the law rather than party political interest

I think it isn't actually the elected councillors that do the hearing, it is a properly qualified licensing committee. Hopefully it should cut down on red tape. However if the issue of licenses are affected by party political view points, I do agree it is a sad day!

It won't cut down on red tape, it will just replace it with another length of red tape that is costing everyone a fortune to learn about. Remember also that council officers respond to whichever councillor is banging on their desks that day. These decisions arent taken by officers in a politics free vacuum.

What astounds me is that morons like CAMRA are supporting this retrograde step. I know of virtually no-one in the trade that wants it.

Originally posted by Tony
It won't cut down on red tape, it will just replace it with another length of red tape that is costing everyone a fortune to learn about. Remember also that council officers respond to whichever councillor is banging on their desks that day. These decisions arent taken by officers in a politics free vacuum.

What astounds me is that morons like CAMRA are supporting this retrograde step. I know of virtually no-one in the trade that wants it.

more words of wisdom from Mr "T"

anyone who thinks the new system is going to be fairer is simply living in cuckoo land. anyone with a grudge against a pub can lobby their local councilor,if enough people do it he/she sees political gain in it and goes to the licencing committee (which is going to be made up in part of council members, i understand that part of the last power sharing deal was that the lib dems were given control of it) and hey presto no licence granted.

and as for CAMRA, those flagan using, arran jumper wearing fools
........................... nuff said

ooooooo and by the way,anyone living in the north of the city that gets the "Look Local" free paper, theres an article about the griffin closure

if the letter writer is reading this i challenge them to explain why any enquiries about the pub is met with the response that it will never open again as a pub and then tell us who exactly has killed 300 years of history,the landlord or the local residents.

I'm leaving the trade alltogether now as I see these new laws as a threat to my business:

* Local pubs will have short hours as they might make 'noise' in residential areas
* City pubs will be open 24hrs and violent crime in city's will increase but happen accross a broader period of time.
* Small pubs will be burdened with requirements such as disabled access, extra fire measures, and anything else the council feels like 'updating' in their health and saftey policies.
* Small pubs now faced with £30,000+ worth of cost to remain trading WILL close.
* The only survivour the city centre bar, where people who used to drink socially in local pubs now go, they get wasted and cause fights.

Oh dear.

I would point out that CAMRA is a consumer group, not a trade body.

I'm sure you will find most consumers want to be treated like adults and drink when they want to, not all be thrown out onto the street at the arbirtary time of 11pm to literally fight for taxis home.

Below I have reproduced a press release put out by CAMRA last November on the subject:

http://www.camra.org.uk/SHWebClass.asp?WCI=FrameSet
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7 out of 10 adults want longer pub opening hours


Pub-goers look forward to ‘biggest change in liquor licensing law in living memory’

Issued 8th November 2002. Not for use until 0000 Monday 11th November.

Research released today shows strong and increasing public support for the reform of liquor licensing laws in England and Wales. In response, CAMRA, the Campaign for Real Ale, is urging pub-goers to make their views known to Tony Blair by supporting its ‘Time for Choice’ campaign following the announcement that the ‘Alcohol and Entertainment Bill’ is to be included in the Queen’s Speech on November 13th following years of campaigning.

Public opinion tracking research commissioned by CAMRA shows a significant increase between July 1999 and July 2002 in the percentage of adults who support a more relaxed approach to pub opening hours. The consumer group has launched a web site petition and distributed campaign postcards aimed at MPs and the Prime Minister to its 66,000 members.

Mike Benner, Head of Campaigns and Communications said, "On the eve of the biggest changes in liquor licensing law in living memory, consumers are looking forward to a fairer deal on pub opening hours. The Government has a Manifesto commitment to reform our antiquated licensing laws and we want to show Tony Blair that he has the support of Britain’s pub-goers in reforming licensing law at the earliest opportunity."

CAMRA’s research shows:

68% of adults think a pub should be able to open when the landlord pleases, providing the local community is protected from excessive noise and nuisance. Public support has increased by 11% since 1999.
Nearly two-thirds (62%) of adults believe they should have the opportunity to drink in pubs at any time they choose.
Less than one third of adults think there will be more disorder in town centres if closing times varied from pub to pub.
Mike Benner added, "Nearly 7 out of 10 people support a more relaxed approach to pub opening hours and this support has increased by 11% in the last 3 years. The findings suggest that most people realise that the proposed new laws won’t result in a free-for-all with little protection for communities from problem pubs. Any pubs which would like to open their doors for longer will have to submit an operating plan to the licensing authorities to which residents and the police will be able to object. Most pubs, with the exception of some large town centre bars, will probably just apply for an extra hour or two at weekends, depending on what their customers would like to see."

CAMRA is also welcoming moves to make pubs more family-friendly by making it easier for pubs to cater for families.

Mike Benner added, "Previous attempts to help pubs cater for families with children via the ‘Children’s Certificates’ system have led to ridiculous demands on pubs and widespread inconsistencies across licensing areas. The new laws will not lead to a situation where children will have free access to all pubs, but will make it easier for publicans to offer suitable facilities for families to enjoy time together in their local."

John Grogan MP, Chairman of the Parliamentary Licensing Reform Panel, and a leading figure in the campaign for licensing reform, has welcomed CAMRA’s new postcard campaign.

Mr Grogan said, "It is now time for the Government to call last orders on liquor licensing laws which date back to the days of Lloyd George. The Government must now deliver on its promise to modernise the law in this area. "

CAMRA has been campaigning for licensing reform for several years as parts of the current laws date back nearly one hundred years and are out of line with the needs of today’s consumers and tourists.

The British Tourist Authority has also voiced its support for reform.

Kurt Janson, Head of Policy at the BTA said, "Modernising liquor licensing, combined with a review of public entertainment licensing, would greatly enhance overseas visitors’ enjoyment of their stay in Britain by increasing their choice and providing a social environment that reflects modern lifestyles."

Mr. Benner said, "It is unfair on both consumers and publicans that pubs are forced to close at 11pm every night. It is out of line with today’s 24 hour economy and Britain’s tourism industry. The terminal hour puts undue stress on the police and local services at weekends as town centres are invaded by people who have all been kicked out of the pub at the same time and all want the same taxi and kebab. A more relaxed approach will help relieve the stresses that current restrictions cause."

"The message for Tony Blair is clear – the majority of British consumers support reform and the introduction of a new Licensing Act should start with the Queen’s Speech on November 13th."

Pub-goers can support CAMRA’s campaign at www.camra.org.uk/pubhours

Notes for editors

A Brief history of Licensing Law

1872-

The Intoxicating Liquor (Licensing) Bill of 1872 first introduced restrictions on opening hours and was universally reviled. 800,000 people petioned against the Bill. The Bill was eventually passed and became known as the Aberdare Act.The Act sought to put an end to gin palace type premises and was designed to make life difficult for landlords.

1914 –1918

Licensing changes introduced. In August 1914 powers to close public houses and to restrict pub opening hours were given to military and naval authorities. This power was extended to civil authorities shortly afterwards.

In October 1914 evening closing time in London became 10.00pm instead of 12.30am.

In 1915 opening hours were reduced from 16-17 hours (19.5 hours in London) to 5.5 hours and evening closing was 9 – 9.30pm.

In 1916 the Government via the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) took over the four breweries in Carlisle as well as 235 pubs in the Carlisle, Gretna and Annan area. The next year pubs in the Enfield Lock area of London and Invergordon in Scotland were taken over. In all these areas there were worries that the effectiveness of the munitions factories were being endangered by drunkenness amongst the workers.

The State Management System , as it was called, banned Sunday drinking, the consumption of spirits on a Saturday and the use of spirit chasers. Food, soft drinks and facilities for women were introduced to pubs.

There was even a call for the Nationalisation of the brewing industry and pubs.

The 1921 Licensing Act transferred the assets of the Control Board to The Home Office and The Scottish Office. The State Management system carried on until it was abolished by Harold Wilson in the 1970s. The 1921 Act also set opening hours at 8-9 hours a day, with afternoon closing. And 5 hours on a Sunday.

The 1964 Licensing Act

This Act replaced the 1921 Licensing Act and other subsequent amendments.

Since 1964 there have been at least a dozen separate Acts and Deregulation Orders making certain amendments and adjustments to licensing law. These include all day opening on weekdays (1988); all day opening on Sundays (1995). This piecemeal tinkering with licensing legislation continues. Currently the Government is finalising legislation to allow pubs to stay open for up to 36 hours over the New Years Eve period.

The 1964 Act runs to 155 pages; 204 sections and 15 schedules.It includes regulations for seamen’s canteens, licences in the Carlisle district and Sunday closing in Wales and Monmouth! The latest Licensing Bill promises to ‘sweep away more red tape than any other Bill in histroy’ and 33 separate statutes will disappear

Opening hours in other EuropeanCoutries

Belgium

Hours very flexible. Bars open (and close) when they like and licensing magistrates rarely impose restrictions on opening hours

Finland

Max hours 9.00am – 1.30am (an extension of 2 hours can be granted).

Norway

10.00am – midnight. Friday and Saturday till 3.00am.

Netherlands

Fixed hours for particular pubs, but there are always pubs that stay open from early to very late.

Supplementary notes

The ‘Time for Reform’ White Paper on Licensing law was published in July 2001. It proposed to modernise licensing law and give a boost to tourism. Key features include a single premises licence, a personal licence, flexible opening hours and a shift of administration of licensing to local authorities with appeals being dealt with by Magistrates.
It is widely expected that the Alcohol and Entertainment Licensing Bill will be included in the Queen’s Speech on November 13th. If included, it should receive royal assent by July 2003 with the new laws coming into force by July 2004. The DCMS is working closely with key industry bodies to ensure the smooth introduction of the new Act.
CAMRA’s ‘Time for Choice’ postcard campaign also asks pub goers to send postcards to their local MPs asking them to support Early Day Motion 1620 tabled by Lembit Opik MP. The EDM already has the support of 64 MPs.
The postcard campaign message to Tony Blair reads, "Our restrictive licensing laws were designed for the 19th century and are in need of reform. A more relaxed approach towards opening times will mean greater freedom of choice for us all, and help stamp out a culture of binge drinking. I urge you to fulfill your manifesto commitment to modernise our licensing laws by including a licensing Bill in the Queen’s speech."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crikey.. what a missive.

The problem with CAMRA is that they are a (generally) a bunch of self serving idiots who don't see the contradictions of the rubbish they often spout.

Make no mistake... these licencing laws will close pubs... especially the little ones that CAMRA likes.

Morons. :mad:

There is more to life than pubs.

Originally posted by Bluelunar
i still dont understand why alcohol is allowed and taking drus is not, when most violences are done by drunks not ppl addicted to drugs.
:/

Alcohol is a drug, if it were discovered today it would be a Class A drug the same as heroin.

No matter how little of the drug you use it still affects you in a harmful way.

Originally posted by Indigogo
There is more to life than pubs.

Yeah,theres off-licences to!!!!

...probably the longest press release in the world

;)

Originally posted by mr craig
Yeah,theres off-licences to!!!!

or a nice day trip to france :)

Originally posted by Pete1024
* City pubs will be open 24hrs and violent crime in city's will increase but happen accross a broader period of time.


Exactly what evidence are we going on here?

If people allow their lives to revolve around a pub, I wonder if their life feels fulfilled when they're 70 ???