someone once told me this story ...

a man dies and he arrives at the 'pearly gates' ... where st peter asks him "would you like to go to heaven or to hell" !?

"what are they like" ... the man asks.

"let's go check em out dude" ... st peter replies ...

so they arrive first in hell ... where they find themsleves in a gynormous banquet hall ... filled with those really big long tables !! ... and on the tables are all the most yummy food stuffs know to man ... *droooooooool* ... but the people sat round the tables looking most unhappy !! ...

on closer inspection ... they discover that these people have 6 foot long spoons attached to their hands (and they can't let go of the spoon handles ... you get the picture).

so despite having all this lovely gorgeous food ... these people are unable to feed themselves ...

"hmmmmmm ... ok ... that ain't so good is it" !? ... the man says.

"nope" .... st peter replies ...

"so what's heaven like" !? ... asks the man.

to which st peter replies ... "exactly the same ... but there the people have learned to feed one another".

Makes you feel good that one does. It says so much.

Love it.

It gives you hope in this modern dog-eat-dog World.

Great.

I was expecting the punchline to point out that the folks in Hell as thin as rails are the followers of the major organised religions that spent their lives shoving their belief-system down others throats...

well said carmine

It has nothing to do with religion.

Originally posted by Jamie
someone once told me this story ...

a man dies and he arrives at the 'pearly gates' ... where st peter asks him "would you like to go to heaven or to hell" !?

"what are they like" ... the man asks.

"let's go check em out dude" ... st peter replies ...

so they arrive first in hell ... where they find themsleves in a gynormous banquet hall ... filled with those really big long tables !! ... and on the tables are all the most yummy food stuffs know to man ... *droooooooool* ... but the people sat round the tables looking most unhappy !! ...

on closer inspection ... they discover that these people have 6 foot long spoons attached to their hands (and they can't let go of the spoon handles ... you get the picture).

so despite having all this lovely gorgeous food ... these people are unable to feed themselves ...

"hmmmmmm ... ok ... that ain't so good is it" !? ... the man says.

"nope" .... st peter replies ...

"so what's heaven like" !? ... asks the man.

to which st peter replies ... "exactly the same ... but there the people have learned to feed one another".

i like it lol

While you're using the terms "heaven," "hell," "St Peter" and the "Pearly Gates" the story is framed in Chrisitian dogma.

While the moral message of mutual cooperation and understanding transcends religion, the references to the Chrisitan afterlife presuppose belief in heaven and hell.

As a non-christian I don't believe in the existance of heaven or hell, but I appreciate the story all the same.

Originally posted by Carmine
While you're using the terms "heaven," "hell," "St Peter" and the "Pearly Gates" the story is framed in Chrisitian dogma.

While the moral message of mutual cooperation and understanding transcends religion, the references to the Chrisitan afterlife presuppose belief in heaven and hell.

As a non-christian I don't believe in the existance of heaven or hell, but I appreciate the story all the same.

Hi Carmine,

Agreed ... the story is framed in Christian dogma (please ... no more religious debates) in so far as it uses the 4 words that you mention.

For me ... the essence of a story is what matters (not the words).

Glad u liked it all the same Carmine :-)

Well may I ask a couple of religious questions aimed at Carmine?

Nothing too heavy just interested in her/his (sorry unsure :blush: ) opinion.

Originally posted by Carmine
As a non-christian I don't believe in the existance of heaven or hell, but I appreciate the story all the same.
May I ask what religion if any you follow?
Also if you do not believe in heaven nor hell do you believe we all go to the same place after we die regardless of how we have lived?
Or do you believe that after we die, that's it... just worm food?

I am just curious to get another persons perspective on things, and i'm not here to judge either way!

Thanks!:thumbsup:

I'm a guy...just to clear that up!

I'd be happy to answer.

I follow no religion because I have found no religion that answers the questions about human existance that I feel need to be answered. We're born with an instinct to explore, discover and never stop learning. So when a religion tells me that I shouldn't question or demands blind faith I tend to wonder why in their version of things "God" decided to give mankind these faculties in the first place.

I believe in reincarnation, personally. I might not call it karma, but I also believe that we carry the good or bad we did in one life into the next. Spending an eternity in heaven or hell just seems to be an anti-climax. You were good: you get heaven. You were bad: you get hell. That way no one learns from their mistakes. To me heaven and hell are just as meaningless as us all ending up as wormfood!

So by that answer... the loved ones (or soulmates) you are in a relationship with in one way or another while you're here now... you'll never see again after you die.

Just curious on your views!

When my grandfather (god rest his soul) passed away some years ago he aparently said just before departure that he could see a light. In the light he could see his old friends (can't name em, cos I forget the names). They had all passed away before him. He said something like they're smiling at me and saying they've come to take me with them.

He died a few moments later!

It may be mind playing tricks. It may not. I'll not know till I die, but those words left me with a warm feeling of "someday we'll meet again". You know what I mean!

I can't say what happens when we die, just what seems to make sense to me as an individual. I once read a book called "The Years of Rice and Salt" by Kim Stanley Robinson, in which the story followed the lives of a group of characters who were reincarnated over and over again on their path to enlightenment. Each time they died, they met in a place between lives and worlds known as the "Bardo." Here they were aware of the life they had led and the fact that they were in a cycle of reincarnation that was ongoing, once they were reborn they were forced to forget the former lives and start again.

While I might disagree with the total loss of memory when reincarnated, I find the idea that we may find ourselves reborn over and over with a group of souls to whom we are linked comforting.

Rather than never see loved ones again, I believe that we come to understand them and ourselves as beings comprising more than the person we are in any one life.

I don't know what happens when we die either ...

Carmine: The thing that you said ... 'I believe that we come to understand them and ourselves as beings comprising more than the person we are in any one life." ... I can relate to.

I think the point of the story is that we create our own 'heaven' or 'hell' on earth ... by how we treat other people ... and what you get is what you give.

Originally posted by Jamie

"let's go check em out dude" ... st peter replies ...

Is St Peter a stoner/surfer then?!
Thats my kinda heaven! :thumbsup: :wink:
xxx

Originally posted by Carmine
You were good: you get heaven. You were bad: you get hell. That way no one learns from their mistakes.
Can you expand on that? If you cannot remember any previous incarnations then you're still not going to learn fromyour mistakes. Surely the concept of heaven and hell make you less likely to make mistakes or do evil things. If you're reincarnated then it doesn't make any difference, you could just live an evil life over and over again and never have to worry about any sort of repercussion.

Not if you believe in karmic reincarnation, under which you are judged by your actions in a previous life and reincarnated in the next possibly as a "lower" form of life such as an animal (which may not be lower than a human being, if you think about it!). The cycle continues until you achieve nirvana, the state in which the self becomes one with the universal whole...so living a naughty life over and over doesn't work unless you want to exist as a maggot for the rest of eternity.

Personally, I find the concept of heaven and hell as immature as stories about monsters under the bed. The idea of being judged at the end of your life and being sent to one or the other is taking responsibility for human actions out of our own hands and placing it in that of an imagined higher authority. The policy of "shoot 'em all and let God sort them out," seems similar to me.

What If?

Heaven and reincarnation exist together!

What if there is choice?

What if, when you move on you can't take in Heaven/Afterlife/Nirvana/paradise etc and all it's immaculate eternal energy and knowledge?
If your not ready then where do you go till you are?

Just take this as me playing d****s advocate,

obviously an inappropriate turn of phrase while on such a subject


bulldog D

If there's a choice, then I'd choose reincarnation as I think a "free entry" heaven would likely be full of pushy religious types trying to bring a lawsuit against the eternal concordence of being because they're not shown to the position on the right hand of their god that their religion promised them and disputing the fact that their god doesn't actually exist.

The whole point of heaven is it's supposed to be perfect for everybody isn't it, irrespective of their religion while mortal.
If you've attained infinite perfection then surely you will see with eternal wisdom and not be drawn into this right god/wrong god argument!

i think if we can prove that a god is exist and the religions are right then we can talk about hell and heaven

"There is no good and evil, outside of what makes us happy and what makes us unhappy" Richard Bach

350 people queing up to get into heaven. God says "I will grant you all 1 wish"
The first person says "I want to be beautiful
The second persons thinks that is a good idea and does the same.
etc. etc.
349th person says "I also want to be beautiful"
So God says "OK (to 350th) your the last one in, what is your wish?"
The 350th says "I want you to make them all ugly again"

kool story!!

not getting into any religious arguments, but how can i say i dont believe in hell!! i run the place!!! :P

X

Originally posted by Sam Miguel
Makes you feel good that one does. It says so much.

Love it.

It gives you hope in this modern dog-eat-dog World.

Great.

I lived in Heeley. Wondered where you live and how long you have been there ?

Originally posted by bulldog D
The whole point of heaven is it's supposed to be perfect for everybody isn't it, irrespective of their religion while mortal.
If you've attained infinite perfection then surely you will see with eternal wisdom and not be drawn into this right god/wrong god argument!

You've hit the nail on the head with the second point here, but the fact is that even in the 21st century we still have the foolish and the unenlightened blowing up the innocent and preaching intolerance for the sake of the religion that they had drummed into them as kids when they were far too young and impressionable to make any kind of logical personal choice on the matter.

The very idea of heaven is derived from the worldview of the religions that follow the teachings of the permutations of the text variously known as the Torah, Bible and Qu'ran. The simple act of declaring that heaven exists as defined by these belief systems means that it can never be "perfect" from the viewpoint of those who follow religions that do not beieve in the concept of a heaven.

If you in fact mean to define the term "heaven" in a much broader sense, to encompass the concepts of an afterlife that goes beyond the conventional Christian concept of a divine paradise, then I fully concur.

We all make our own Heaven or Hell here on earth by how we behave and what we do. Heaven or Hell suggest reward or punishment for how we live our lives whilst we are here.

I beleive we should take responsibility for our actions on Earth and stop bellyaching about what might be after we die.!!!

I used the word 'heaven' ... to indicate a state of personal being (enlightenment / self-awareness / bliss) ... this is something that I consider to be a natural state of beingness and has nothing to do with religion or belief systems ... it exists with or without religion.

Obviously the word 'heaven' is very much a concept used by religions ... but I am using the word not in a religious sense ... but to indicate a state of being / awareness.

The story does have a religious tone to it (st peter / pearly gate / heaven / hell) ... but for me it is more about the underlaying principles.

Like Hal says ... making your own heaven or hell here on earth.

Treating your fellow humans with dignity respect and love ... because you will get what you give.

Hope to God I don't end up in hell. Won't be able to get near the fire for politicians:evil:

Originally posted by Carmine
You've hit the nail on the head with the second point here, but the fact is that even in the 21st century we still have the foolish and the unenlightened blowing up the innocent and preaching intolerance for the sake of the religion that they had drummed into them as kids when they were far too young and impressionable to make any kind of logical personal choice on the matter.

The very idea of heaven is derived from the worldview of the religions that follow the teachings of the permutations of the text variously known as the Torah, Bible and Qu'ran. The simple act of declaring that heaven exists as defined by these belief systems means that it can never be "perfect" from the viewpoint of those who follow religions that do not beieve in the concept of a heaven.

If you in fact mean to define the term "heaven" in a much broader sense, to encompass the concepts of an afterlife that goes beyond the conventional Christian concept of a divine paradise, then I fully concur.

The broader sense was exactly how I meant it.
i.e. If we're supposed to love our neighbour as we do ourselves irrespective of religion, creed or colour then surely in the eyes of him upstairs we're all equal.
So if we are all equal, why would we not want to go to a place that a perfect Muslim, Hindu, Catholic/Protestant christian or buddhist has arrived at.

Originally posted by bulldog D
The broader sense was exactly how I meant it.
i.e. If we're supposed to love our neighbour as we do ourselves irrespective of religion, creed or colour then surely in the eyes of him upstairs we're all equal.
So if we are all equal, why would we not want to go to a place that a perfect Muslim, Hindu, Catholic/Protestant christian or buddhist has arrived at.

not sure i quite understand the concept of your argument. all the religions you mention worship different Gods. are you saying all these Gods abide together in the same place? must have been quite an atmosphere up there during the Holy wars

Originally posted by Killian
not sure i quite understand the concept of your argument. all the religions you mention worship different Gods. are you saying all these Gods abide together in the same place? must have been quite an atmosphere up there during the Holy wars

As far as I know they all worship the same god, it's the various prophets who interpret this alleged god's wishes. To further complicate matters different 'priests' within each religion interpret their prophets wishes in different ways.

The sooner they all realise it's the same god the better.

Originally posted by max
As far as I know they all worship the same god, it's the various prophets who interpret this alleged god's wishes. To further complicate matters different 'priests' within each religion interpret their prophets wishes in different ways.

The sooner they all realise it's the same god the better.

so what you are saying is that Moslems worship the Jewish God Jehovah? (the same God adopted by the Christians). think you ought to let them know very quickly as surely this is a good starting point for peace negotiations on the West Bank.

Originally posted by Killian
so what you are saying is that Moslems worship the Jewish God Jehovah? (the same God adopted by the Christians). think you ought to let them know very quickly as surely this is a good starting point for peace negotiations on the West Bank.

If God can encompass the father , the son and the Holy spirit in the Christian sense, then surely God can be all things to all men irrespective of their background.
If the two groups from the ones you listed actually gave it any thought instead of allowing greed, pride, arrogance, intollerance and bigotry to drive them then we might actually start getting somewhere.

With regard to Muslims, Christians and Jews we're all viewed as 'people of the book' by Muslims, as far as I know.

(Apologies if I'm wrong here...my comparative religion knowledge is a bit weak).

Now, as far as I understand, the differences lie in the treatment of Jesus. Christians view Him as the Son of God. Muslims view him as a prophet, but of no greater importance than any of the other Old Testament propehts such as Abraham. He is still to be revered. But they hold that the last Prophet was Mohammed, and that his teachings are the true ones. I'm not sure about the position of Jesus in Judaism - maybe someone else can chip in?

Joe

On a lighter note....

(And no disrespect to anyone's political or religious viewpoint intended)...

Peter Mandelson, after a long and happy life, dies and goes to Heaven. At the Pearly Gates he's met by St Peter who has Mandelson's file in his hands.

"Mr Mandelson, as you've had such an impact on political life whilst down there, we're going to give you the choice of determining where you spend eternity"

First of all, St Peter takes Mandelson on a tour of Heaven. There he sees what awaits him. His every whim will be catered for - serving girls will wash and bathe him, feed him and minister to his every need. He is treated like a king amongst men.

Then St Peter takes him by the hand and gets in an express lift. They drop down, down, down and the lift comes to a halt. The doors open and they look out on the City of Dis - the ante chamber of Hell. Mandelson is quaking in his Italian designer boots but manfully strides out with St Peter. They enter Hell, and to his utter amazement see exactly the same scene that Mandelson saw in Heaven!

Same serving girls, same feeding, bathing, whatever.

He turns to St Peter and says "Hang on...it's exactly the same! What's happening?"

St Peter looks at Mandelson and says "Come now, Mr Mandelson, as the inventor of 'spin' you must surely see that up there you're being rewarded and down here those girls are being punished?"

Well, it seems funnier after a few beers...:-)

Originally posted by Killian
so what you are saying is that Moslems worship the Jewish God Jehovah? (the same God adopted by the Christians). think you ought to let them know very quickly as surely this is a good starting point for peace negotiations on the West Bank.

Muslims are well aware of this fact already Killian.
One God - many names (http://www.nawawi.org/downloads/article2.pdf). To paraphrase - Christianity, Judaism, Islam; they all worship the God of Abraham, although some of the Christian right in the US are trying to deny this...
William Boykin, a top Pentagon general, brought himself international notoriety by proclaiming his God to be a “real God” and “bigger” than the Muslim God, whom he deemed a mere “idol,” inflammatory remarks for which the Bush-Cheney administration has refused to hold him accountable.
"My god is bigger than your god." This from a guy that spends his day playing with large pointy missles, and tanks with long retractable mortor canons. Sigmund Freud would have a field day with him.

Originally posted by Carmine
Not if you believe in karmic reincarnation, under which you are judged by your actions in a previous life and reincarnated in the next possibly as a "lower" form of life such as an animal (which may not be lower than a human being, if you think about it!). The cycle continues until you achieve nirvana

So what're the various levels, and where do humans come in?
Are we all just one step away from nirvana, or do we need to become dolphins first?

Also, how do animals live a good/ bad life?

But then, why cant we all be nice to one another, and if there is heaven, then we all go there.If there isnt, we have nothing to loose. Juz a logical approach.

Can you imagine if the whole world adopted your idea Simba!