Lily- livered apologists, crawling around in sack cloth and ashes-------ashamed of our culture and history? Or something else? Discuss........

We are turning into a nation of sociologists, apparently.

Thugs,thieves and ne'r do wells. But tell you what, lets take the easy option and blame Thatcher ;)

Originally posted by cloudybay
Lily- livered apologists, crawling around in sack cloth and ashes-------ashamed of our culture and history? Or something else? Discuss........

Moaning minnies? :rolleyes:

We are turning into a society of do gooders and apologists mind you we are probably already there.
We are being brainwashed by the establishment into accepting things which we ought to chalenge and we will soon become a nation of complete wimps with the exception of you know who.;)

Anation of spineless lightweights with no guts and a totally blinkered view of what is happening to our country.:mad:

Originally posted by cloudybay
Lily- livered apologists, crawling around in sack cloth and ashes-------ashamed of our culture and history? Or something else? Discuss........

I actually thnk that we should have a more positive view of our history. I also think that we're a more apathetic society today keen on amusing ourselves to death as a society. It's not just us - the US and a fair amount of the rest of the 'developed world' as well.

I'm proud of this country's achievements on the whole - sometimes we've screwed up but on the whole I do subscribe to the view that to be born British is still to have won first prize in the lottery of life, untrendy as that view may be.

Having said that, what I'd like to know from you is what YOU are doing to change things?

Are you a member of a political party and follow your views up in that way?

Do you work for the public sector to support your country? Serve in the military? Do you do charity work? Do you engage with your community and try to help matters there?

A lot of folks in this country could do well to reflect on Kennedy's words (I think) - "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country." If you dislike what's happening then answer the questions :

Why am I unhappy with it?
Why is it happening, and why do people put up with it?
What can we do to change things?
How can I help change society in a positive way?

Then go and do something.

Words are cheap, and usually serve only to inflame matters.

Actions and deeds create change. Whether we like what the state of the nation is or not, we still have some capability through the ballot box and working for change within our communities to try and effect a change.

Of course, what you want as a society may not be what the vast majority of people want - if that's the case then you just have to grin and bear it.

Joe

Originally posted by JoeP
...
Of course, what you want as a society may not be what the vast majority of people want - if that's the case then you just have to grin and bear it.

Yup. Or emigrate - please.

"We are turning into a nation of"

What a stupid way to start a sentence. There's over 60 million of us! We're all different! We're not turning into a big homogenous blob of anything!

Originally posted by JoeP

I'm proud of this country's achievements on the whole - sometimes we've screwed up but on teh whole I do subscribe to the view that to be born British is still to have one first prize in the lottery of life, untrendy as that view may be.

Having said that, what I'd like to know from you is what YOU are doing to change things?




I take it you mean 'Won' first prize?

Originally posted by kathythebean
"We are turning into a nation of"

What a stupid way to start a sentence. There's over 60 million of us! We're all different! We're not turning into a big homogenous blob of anything!

well said.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Yup. Or emigrate - please.

Phan,

Why should I emigrate?

I'm very happy here - there are some parts of the way the UK is run that I don't agree with, but on the whole I thnk it's still the finest country in the world to live in.

If I wanted to live elsewhere I would do. I'm skilled, educated and haven't got a criminal record so I would have no problems about living anywhere in the world.

Just because I'm not happy with all aspects of life here doesn't mean I shouldn't want to change it. However, if the majority of my fellow citizens are happy, like I said, I live with it. And if it ever came to a point where life in the UK changed to a degree that I found untenable for me, then I would emigrate to a country that was more in tune with me and that would accept me as a contributing member of their society.

So, if you don't mnd Phan, I won't leave just yet - I'll carry on enjoying my life here, warts and all.

Joe

Originally posted by cloudybay
I take it you mean 'Won' first prize?

Oops! Damn right!

I'd better fix it!

Joe :)

We're turning into a nation of.......... immigrants.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Yup. Or emigrate - please.

but the ones who want to change it have only just got here!

:heyhey:

Originally posted by t020
We're turning into a nation of.......... immigrants.

I bet thats exactly what the Indians, Africans etc . . . thought during the British Raj. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by JoeP
Phan,

Why should I emigrate?

Wups. Not you Joe!

I was simply expanding on your suggestions for people unhappy with 'what this nation has become', compared to 'the golden era'.

i.e. If it really is that bad here, why not emigrate to a nice place like Turkey, for example.

I happen to think that the UK is the best place in the world to live, and that is why I am here. The glass is half full.

Originally posted by royjames
We are being brainwashed by the establishment into accepting things which we ought to chalenge and we will soon become a nation of complete wimps with the exception of you know who.;)

I don't know who. Who? You're right though that we are being brainwashed by the establishment into accepting things we should challenge. Certain parts of that establishment are better at this than others.

Originally posted by JoeP
Phan,

Why should I emigrate?

I'm very happy here - there are some parts of the way the UK is run that I don't agree with, but on the whole I thnk it's still the finest country in the world to live in.

If I wanted to live elsewhere I would do. I'm skilled, educated and haven't got a criminal record so I would have no problems about living anywhere in the world.

Just because I'm not happy with all aspects of life here doesn't mean I shouldn't want to change it. However, if the majority of my fellow citizens are happy, like I said, I live with it. And if it ever came to a point where life in the UK changed to a degree that I found untenable for me, then I would emigrate to a country that was more in tune with me and that would accept me as a contributing member of their society.

So, if you don't mnd Phan, I won't leave just yet - I'll carry on enjoying my life here, warts and all.

Joe

I rest my case.....

Originally posted by Cyclone
well said.

Just another mindless comment from a mindless male..........

Originally posted by royjames
We are turning into a society of do gooders and apologists mind you we are probably already there.

Yawn! I've heard it lots of times before but strangely I've heard very little hard evidence to back it up.

Originally posted by royjames
We are being brainwashed by the establishment into accepting things which we ought to chalenge

Do you have any examples of what "we" are being "brainwashed" by "the establishment" into accepting which we ought to "chalenge"?

Originally posted by royjames
we will soon become a nation of complete wimps

There's an interesting choice of word there. Wimps? What does that choice indicate? A deep-seated insecurity or feeling of inadequacy?

Originally posted by royjames
with the exception of you know who.;)

I don't know who actually (unless you mean Doctor Who).

Well , obviously we , as nation , are not one , "lump" or mass and we are, again ,obviously , all individuals , to a great extent . However that doesn't mean that we don't have things in common ; it doesn't mean that we don't sometimes act , 'in the mass ' or as a group ------and therefore , I think it's perfectly legitimate to talk about trends or how , " a people can change character ". If you couldn't do that , we could never say that vast groups changed their lifestyles and attitudes .
People in England in the early 19th. century were mainly rural , by the end of the century they were mainly urban . Did not that change their attitude or lifestyle ? The Protestant work ethic ? Timekeeping in factories .......etc.......?
I think we have changed as a nation , considerably , since 1970 , to take a year , almost at random.
We have more recent immigrants who are bound to bring their own lifestyles and attitudes , for good or bad .
We wallow in T.V. and the visual media more and seem to believe whatever is told us about life e.g the constant health scares that keep cropping up and the accompanying hysteria .
I think disciplined education and thus , thinking , has dwindled and made more people more vulnerable to uncritical
judgement .
I think we are a more violent , crime-ridden society on the one hand and a more maudlin , sickly-sentimental society on the other .Witness the reaction to the death of , say , Churchill and Princess Diane.I feel sure we are less proud of Britain and its great achievements [at least vis-a -vis other comparable countries ] or at least we are more timid about expressing patriotism .
We are , I'm sure less , "spiritual " in the broad meaning of the word and more and more obsessive about possessions .
Again , I must emphasise that I think these are only trends in society ------plenty of exceptions to be sure ------but I think they're broadly true and I admit I've probably missed a lot out .

Originally posted by cloudybay
Just another mindless comment from a mindless male..........

Someone's in a joyous mood today, aren't they? :rolleyes:

Why start a thread if you're going to be snotty with everyone who posts on it?

StarSparkle

Originally posted by cloudybay
I rest my case.....

I'm sorry, but exactly what IS your case?

You raised a perfectly valid question, which is increasingly looking like a rhetorical point so that you can try and either raise hackles or score points, rather than something you genuinely wish to debate.

I gave you my viewpoint - you asked the question but don't seem to have made a case by so doing.

So, what's your case? Do you believe we are becoming a bunch of cowardly losers?

Or do you just have an issue with Cyclone and myself?

Joe

we seem to be turning into a nation of people who seem to think it is fine for people to preach hate against people who aren't like themselves.

We seem to be turning into a nation of people who see to think that we can have anything we want. That it is our right.to have anything anyone else was.

We are turning into a nation of people who only care about ourselves and as long as we can get whatever we want we could't care about others.

we are turning into a nation of middle class liberals who think that because they read a book they no more about other people's lives than those people. That minority groups really want rich white people telling everyone how that minority group feels.

We are turning into a nation of people who will blame everyone for their own situation but themselves.

none, on or more of the above may be true

Originally posted by t020
We're turning into a nation of.......... immigrants.

we have always been a nation of immigrants.

people don't seem to be concerned about immigrants unless they aren't white and western.

Originally posted by JoeP

So, what's your case? Do you believe we are becoming a bunch of cowardly losers?

Joe

I was actually ageeing with your point of View Joe. I am proud to be British, and all Britain stands for.........but sometimes it get's lost in the fog called 'Political Correctness'. I am open to all viewpoints and would never dismiss another opinion...........after all, differing opinions have made me what i am today. I will always fight for freedom of speech........regardless as to whether i agree with it. My post wasn't mean't to be rhetorical............but purely a question of debate.

Originally posted by cloudybay
I was actually ageeing with your point of View Joe. I am proud to be British, and all Britain stands for.........but sometimes it get's lost in the fog called 'Political Correctness'. I am open to all viewpoints and would never dismiss another opinion...........after all, differing opinions have made me what i am today. I will always fight for freedom of speech........regardless as to whether i agree with it. My post wasn't mean't to be rhetorical............but purely a question of debate.

Ahhh.....thanks!

Actually, I'm not sure I was making much of a case myself there....

Sorry I misunderstood your posting!

Joe

I still love you Joe..............xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[i]
What a stupid way to start a sentence [/B]
Your preference Madam is?

Originally posted by cloudybay
Just another mindless comment from a mindless male..........

good rebuttal. Since Joe has already commented I won't bother reporting this. But if it's the best you can do then I will in the future.

So what is it then that being British stands for?
Is it afternoon tea, is it a Friday night **** up, fish and chips, or curry after a night out? Is it the empire (a bit late for that though), the monarchy, democracy, freedom of speech or freedom to preach hatred?
What makes you so arrogant that you think you can define what being british means? And what makes you think that 'we' are turning into anything, everyone is different and thank god we all have our own opinions.

Originally posted by Cyclone
What makes you so arrogant that you think you can define what being british means?

Tell me then Cyclone?

Originally posted by royjames
We are turning into a society of do gooders and apologists mind you we are probably already there.
We are being brainwashed by the establishment into accepting things which we ought to chalenge and we will soon become a nation of complete wimps with the exception of you know who.;)

.. And me as well mate! :)
Otherwise agreed :thumbsup:

Or we are going down that slippery slope.

Originally posted by cloudybay
Tell me then Cyclone?

I'm not so arrogant to think that I can.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I'm not so arrogant to think that I can.

:o :o :o :hihi:

Cloudybay,
You seem to be suggesting that there is a tendency within some quarters to view British history as almost entirely shameful, something to be atoned for. I recall our Lord Protector Blair's grovelling, simpering 'apology to the Irish nation' for alleged British intransigence at the time of the Potato Famine. I was not aware that treacly Tony was around in 1848. Speeches like this, from posturing ninnies like Blair, reinforce the spurious myth of inherited 'racial guilt'. In other words, if one is born British, one is born with the shameful legacy of interference in Irish affairs, colonial atrocities, the transatlantic African slave trade etc around one's neck.

Whilst I deplore the idea of inherited guilt [if the concept had any basis in fact, the Germans and Japanese to name but two nations would be international pariahs], I think it is appropriate to acknowledge the damage caused by colonial interference in the affairs of other nations, alongside more palatable examples of British history. It is important to remember, however, that most, if not all, nations have some sort of historical role in colonial aggression and genocide. Historical revision and re-examination suggests that Arab nations played a larger part in the enslavement of black Africans than did Britain, for example. Until recently, most people thought Britain's involvement with the slave trade was limited to the role of perpetrator, involving the enslavement of around two million Africans. Recently, historical interest has been rekindled in the enslavement of white Europeans by the Barbary slavers of Morocco, Algeria and what is now Libya. Between 1600 and the late 18th century it is estimated that over a million whites were enslaved, sexually-abused, tortured , worked to death and even used in primitive breeding camps [in an early attempt at 'biological gardening', predating Himmler's experiments] by Arab masters. 'Britons never, never shall be slaves ' is an old, fatuous falsehood.

British history, like the history of most countries, is a mixture of pride, shame, victory and disaster. We who live today are not inheritors of any of it in the sense of responsibility for the consequences. Those who apologise for our past deceive themselves into a feeling of self-importance which does not become them.

I don't think its necessary to apologise for our colonial history, timo. However I do think many people fail to consider it at all in an analysis of our relationship to the modern world. I'm not personally feeling sorry or guilty, but if you are looking for the roots of modern immigration then its important to look at the effects the commonwealth has.

Cloudybay - since you ask - I'd rather you started the sentence more like fareast, talking about societal trends. Don't be putting me in your basket. 'We're turning into a nation of' sounds like mindless trolling to me.

Originally posted by kathythebean
I don't think its necessary to apologise for our colonial history, timo. However I do think many people fail to consider it at all in an analysis of our relationship to the modern world. I'm not personally feeling sorry or guilty, but if you are looking for the roots of modern immigration then its important to look at the effects the commonwealth has.


Kathythebean - The history of the British Empire and the Commonwealth have absolutely nothing to do with modern-day mass illegal immigration. I don't recall countries like Turkey, Somalia, China, etc having any links to the Commonwealth.

Timo - excellent, but scary post. I had no idea about most of it - horrible. This idea of British 'historical guilt' is a complete nonsense, dreamt up by the 'chattering classes' who for some reason are embarrassed to be British, and clearly haven't got enough problems in their own lives to worry/feel guilty about. :rolleyes:

They're PC'ing the rest of us to death.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Kathythebean - The history of the British Empire and the Commonwealth have absolutely nothing to do with modern-day mass illegal immigration.

Absolutely nothing?

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Absolutely nothing?

Read my post properly before commenting, Phan.

I repeat: "The history of the British Empire and the Commonwealth have absolutely nothing to do with modern-day mass illegal immigration. I don't recall countries like Turkey, Somalia, China, etc having any links to the Commonwealth"

This is not the 1950s, 1960s or 1970s, when immigration was of course very strongly linked to Britain's imperial past and the Commonwealth.

The situation is totally different today, in this time of mass, illegal immigration. Immigrants are coming today for many reasons no doubt - economic opportunity being the strongest - but not because of historical links.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by timo


British history, like the history of most countries, is a mixture of pride, shame, victory and disaster. We who live today are not inheritors of any of it in the sense of responsibility for the consequences. Those who apologise for our past deceive themselves into a feeling of self-importance which does not become them.

Yes it can appear as apologising for the sake of it, for PC reasons, yet there is another side to this. As a nation we have to exist with many others, and not only that, we have to maintain good relations in the name of keeping peace and keeping business. If, for example, apologising for our involvement in deaths as a result of the Irish potato famine might foster better relations with Ireland then why shouldn't our leaders do that? I always think it takes the bigger and braver person to apologise in everyday life, so doing it in terms of international diplomacy (which is a far more delicate business than the Daily Mail seems to think!) shows to me that we might live in a civilised nation.

As for what kind of a nation we are becoming - then we aren't becoming any particular kind of nation, we are a diverse bunch. Some of us are 'do-gooders', some of us are reactionaries. There's room for both.

Kathy,
I agree, as I say in my post, that we need to acknowledge historical 'wrongdoings', but we need feel no sense of 'inherited guilt'. I am aware of the link between the Empire and post 1948 immigration. You surely didn't think it had escaped me, did you? LOL. I think you misinterpret Cloudy's motives for posting. She is no more a 'troll' than you or I. In my experience she is a clever, witty and informed poster.

Starsparkle,
Thanks for the kind words. I don't want to take Cloudy's thread too far from its original focus, but the 'scary' references to Barbary slavers should be better known. Most 'mainstream' historical texts omit to mention the , at one time, thriving trade in white slavery. For example, did you know that the Arabs [largely Moroccans and Algerians] raided southern England, especially Cornwall and Devon as well as preying upon the Irish of the Cork coast? There were many such raids. In the 1600s, almost the entire population of the Cork village of Baltimore was abducted into slavery by Barbary corsairs. Many white captives literally died of terror upon embarkment in Arab lands. Those who survived were paraded naked in slave markets, just as the African captives of Europeans were, to be sold to the highest bidder. Men were often used as galley-slaves, which was a fate worse than death. Women, in the main, became servants and sexual playthings. It is said that a [nameless] English female slave married into the Moroccan royal family. How true this is, I do not know. Nevertheless, the historical Barbary slave trade is all too true. Perhaps, in 'pc' jargon, we might call it, 'the White Holocaust'. Of course, I am being flippant here. Whites are never 'victims', are they?

Junkies?
XenoPhobics?

Junkies of 'reality tv', certainly.
Xenophobes? Possibly, in some quarters. What did the architects of mass immigration and multiculturalism really expect? Did Roy Jenkins really believe that Britain would become a 'melting pot' in which we all lived happily ever after in his 'atmosphere of mutual tolerance'? One might as well believe in Tony Blair.

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Read my post properly before commenting, Phan.

I repeat: "The history of the British Empire and the Commonwealth have absolutely nothing to do with modern-day mass illegal immigration. I don't recall countries like Turkey, Somalia, China, etc having any links to the Commonwealth"

This is not the 1950s, 1960s or 1970s, when immigration was of course very strongly linked to Britain's imperial past and the Commonwealth.

The situation is totally different today, in this time of mass, illegal immigration. Immigrants are coming today for many reasons no doubt - economic opportunity being the strongest - but not because of historical links.

StarSparkle

I did read your post properly. Is there anything that suggests otherwise?

Originally posted by timo
white captives literally died of terror upon embarkment in Arab lands.

indulging in a little hyperbole?

Originally posted by timo
Perhaps, in 'pc' jargon, we might call it, 'the White Holocaust'. Of course, I am being flippant here. Whites are never 'victims', are they? [/B]

Well, except that most of the victims of the actual holocaust were white.

I don't see the point of feeling inherited guilt about the past actions of your nation or race, but then I don't see the point in feeling inherited pride either.

I don't know if this applies to anyone on this thread, but it seems to me that a lot of people who would deny the validity of feeling shame at the negative aspects of British history would still advocate feeling pride in its positive aspects. I don't see how you can hve one without the other.

Rodimus Prime ,

I think that's a good point that you've made there . What a lot of us are concerned about is that the pendulum has swung too far , "the other way "vis-a-vis the Victorian era .
I'm sure no-one would really want to go back to the , "British Are Best At Everything " attitude and indeed I can't think of any posters who've suggested that .
However , to some of us , it appears that for a good few years now , there has been a sizeable , "Britain Is To Blame For Everything " in this country .
Common sense must indicate that a complex nation like Britain , with a long history has been guilty of some blunders and deliberate cruelties but has much to be proud of . This is particularly so when Britain's record is placed alongside countries in a similar situation to ourselves .
We , who believe Britain is 60% ,'good ' [to pluck a number out of the blue] and 40% ,'bad' are therefore puzzled and rather affronted when we get the impression that we are often portrayed as 90 % bad !

Cyclone,
No, I do not think that I am ,'indulging in a little hyperbole' here. Why not read Robert Davis' 'Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters' and find out for yourself?

RodimusPrime,
I was being sardonic re 'the White Holocaust'. Would you accept 'the White Christian Holocaust' instead? Actually, in view of the many accounts of genocide throughout the history of Homo Sapiens, the term 'Holocaust' seems inappropriate.

Originally posted by Fareast
However , to some of us , it appears that for a good few years now , there has been a sizeable , "Britain Is To Blame For Everything " in this country .
Common sense must indicate that a complex nation like Britain , with a long history has been guilty of some blunders and deliberate cruelties but has much to be proud of . This is particularly so when Britain's record is placed alongside countries in a similar situation to ourselves .
We , who believe Britain is 60% ,'good ' [to pluck a number out of the blue] and 40% ,'bad' are therefore puzzled and rather affronted when we get the impression that we are often portrayed as 90 % bad !

I'd be interested to hear if any of my fellow posters could point me in the direction of a 'Blameless' country?

It appears to me that the ones who are shouting the loudest are the very ones who are more than happy to accept British hospitality

Originally posted by timo
Actually, in view of the many accounts of genocide throughout the history of Homo Sapiens, the term 'Holocaust' seems inappropriate.

It's only appropriate if the victims of the genocide (holos) are incinerated (kaustos), á la the Gesamtlosung in 1930s Germany.

Originally posted by cloudybay
I'd be interested to hear if any of my fellow posters could point me in the direction of a 'Blameless' country?

It appears to me that the ones who are shouting the loudest are the very ones who are more than happy to accept British hospitality

Bhutan.

Andaman Islands

Originally posted by timo

RodimusPrime,
I was being sardonic re 'the White Holocaust'. Would you accept 'the White Christian Holocaust' instead? Actually, in view of the many accounts of genocide throughout the history of Homo Sapiens, the term 'Holocaust' seems inappropriate.

Fair enough. Just looking for a bit of clarity of terms.

I'd be interested to know what you thought of my point about inherited guilt and inherited pride. Do you feel pride in the achievements of the British in history? If so, shouldn't you feel shame for their sins as well?

Originally posted by timo
Cyclone,
No, I do not think that I am ,'indulging in a little hyperbole' here. Why not read Robert Davis' 'Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters' and find out for yourself?

RodimusPrime,
I was being sardonic re 'the White Holocaust'. Would you accept 'the White Christian Holocaust' instead? Actually, in view of the many accounts of genocide throughout the history of Homo Sapiens, the term 'Holocaust' seems inappropriate.

I don't have time, maybe you could explain why and how many died upon embarkment.

Cyclone,
Re the 'deaths through terror' of white captives, I can only go by accounts such as those featured in books like the one written by Davis. I have no idea of the actual figure, but the phrase 'many' is used in some accounts. Apparently, they died through sheer terror at the 'alien' surroundings, sights, smells etc of places like Morocco. We are talking roughly 1600 to early 19th c, and Davis estimates between 1 and 1.25 million, white Christians were enslaved by Barbary corsairs in this period.

RodimusPrime,
I am going to be perfectly honest with you and admit to being a hypocrite here. Like many patriotic people, I eschew the idea of 'inherited racial guilt', but have, on occasion been proud of the victories of British arms against foes like The Third Reich, The Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere and Napoleon. In the latter case, I have felt pride in an ancestor's actions in the 3rd Foot Guards [now Scots Guards] at the battle of Barossa in the Peninsular campaign. Of course, as you suggest, it is hypocritical nonsense. My 4 times Great Grandfather's heroism does not reflect upon me in any conceivable way. He was the brave soldier, not me.

You make some good points, RodimusPrime, and are correct to point out the 'double standards' which many of us are guilty of employing regarding national and personal pride and shame.

The trait that infuriates me most about modern life is FDU journalism. Scumbags like the Mail and the S*n continually perpetuate the myth that society is crumbling, and everything is getting worse. What amazes me most about this is that people accept it so unquestioningly. People are jumping at shadows and petrified of non-existent threats.

Here are a few examples:

1) Paedophiles

Paedophilia is undoubtedly a disgusting crime and nobody would want it to happen to their kids, but there is NOT a paedophile lurking on every street corner and kids playground. It is safe to let your kids walk to school alone and play in the street. The actual risk of a kid getting kidnapped and/or murdered is extremely low. For parents who drive their kids to school due to fear of paedophiles: there is more chance of the child dying in that car due to a road accident than there is of them being kidnapped and killed by a paedophile.

My favourite TV satire program of recent times is the "Brasseye" paedophile special. Chris Morris' spoof of tabloid paedophile hysteria ripped the Mail and their ilk to shreds. It was a work of genius.

2) Teenagers

"Kids these days have no respect. When I was a lad we respected our elders, never answered back and knew our manners. Nowadays kids know they're untouchable"

What rubbish. If a 70 year old was moaning about this, maybe they'd be right. To hear a 30-something or 40-something saying the same is insane though. I was a child in the 1980s and it was not some crime-free utopia. Fear of teenagers used to be solely a pensioner trait, but now it seems to have extended to middle-aged people too. You'd think that people were born at age 21 and had never been teenagers themselves.

A while back I was in a hairdressers and was reading a Mirror editorial on hooded youngsters. The comment said something along the lines of "If you look into the eyes of these thugs, you don't even see the barest glimmer of human intelligence or reasoning. These people are sub-human, and are capable of bringing society itself to a crashing downfall" :loopy:

3) Crime

Recorded crime has been falling for many years, but yet fear of crime has been steadily increasing. :loopy:

4) Terrorism

There is not a terrorist on every bus, train or in every public place. The chances of being involved in a terrorist incident are very low, much less than the chance of getting run over and killed on any given day.


Overall, it's the belief that society is getting worse in every single aspect, and that 20-30 years from now will be complete anarchy. People are spending so much time being scared that they're forgetting to live, and organisations like the Daily Mail who perpetuate this myth have a hell of a lot to answer for.

Daley,
That was an interesting posting. I agree regarding the capacity of The Sun and The Daily Mail to cause 'moral panics' and 'deviancy amplification'. Don't forget these two rags [not exactly pitched at a high plane of abstraction] have to say the same things every day. They are selling often the most spurious, fatuous falsehoods to gullible, 'target' audiences. Mind you, neither are as bad as the Guardian...

Completely agree Daley, people don't make-up their own mind any more they just believe anything they read in the papers or see on TV.

I also think that as a country we are becoming more thick.

The fact that ITV had to issue a statement saying that the medical advice given to a character in Coronation Street should not be taken as real medical advice because it's a soap, not real life, speaks volumes.

I agree with previous postings which argued we shouldnt feel guilty for our countries 'black marks' in history. Why should i apologise to anyone for Britains past mistakes?

However, too many people take this as an excuse not to do anything. We shouldnt be motivated by a sense of guilt, we should just do the right thing regardless.

I believe that there is one recent case in the world which a lot of people in the UK should feel guilty about, the war and subsequent chaos in Iraq.

Originally posted by nick2
I also think that as a country we are becoming more thick.

The fact that ITV had to issue a statement saying that the medical advice given to a character in Coronation Street should not be taken as real medical advice because it's a soap, not real life, speaks volumes.

I don't think that the country is becoming more thick. I think that the media and becoming increasingly obssessed with saying anything to sell a few more papers or get a few more viewers.

Also - i think that politicians are more and more inclined to say whatever is popular rather than sticking to principles. They all want to agree with everyone about everything - New Labour are the masters at this!

Originally posted by goose
Also - i think that politicians are more and more inclined to say whatever is popular rather than sticking to principles. They all want to agree with everyone about everything - New Labour are the masters at this!

True, but the opposition seem to think it's their job to wait and see what the public opinion is then decide if they agree of dissagree with the government.

Originally posted by nick2
True, but the opposition seem to think it's their job to wait and see what the public opinion is then decide if they agree of dissagree with the government.

I agree in the main, all our politicians should try to stand up to and challenge the media on some issues.

I know you understand the role of the empire in post 1948 immigration, timo. It'd be pretty shocking if you didn't :)

My post said that lots of people fail to consider it at all in an analysis of immigration. Starsparkle - I didn't say it was to blame for all immigration, ever, did I? Believe it or not, I do know which countries we colonised.

Take this example. If, in thirty years time, all hell has broken loose in iraq, and there is another dictator in power there, I won't expect my children to apologise for the role Britain may or may not have had to play when they weren't even born. However, I wouldn't expect them to make an ahistorical analysis of what was going on, would I? I'd exepct them to know all about this countries involvement with iraq in the last 50 years or so. And thats not misplaced liberal guilt, thats common sense.