Hi People,
I have just been having a chat with my sister and my mum about santa. I was saying that i think its wrong to lie to kids by saying there is such thing as santa, because when they are older they are gutted when they find out hes not real.

I was saying that Im not going to lie to my nephew and if he asks me if santa is real i will say no.

Somy question is, should we really be lieing to kids by saying santa is real?
________
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I think it's a harmless bit of childhood fun. Most children grow into the realisation that santa isn't real, and aren't 'gutted' when they find out.
So since it's not your child I think you should do as his parents wish.

What is wrong with letting kids believe in the magic of Xmas and Santa.

Usually by the time they find out the truth, they will have had their suspicions anyway and don't really care where the pressies come from.

And as for not lying to your nephew if he asks, I think that is just plain mean :evil:

What the hell are you talking about? You mean Santa ain't real?!!!

:o :cry:

Ssssssshhhhhh!

..... I thought I heard something up on the roof!

Did you hear it too?


(Don't spoil the magic)

:)

Of course children should be allowed to believe in a magical and beautiful world of innocence and make-believe.

If I had a child of my own I would much prefer them to have a childhood of as much goodness, make-believe and innocence for as long as possible.

If done right children aren't gutted when the idea of Santa wears out, they just enjoy the memories.

Let children be children.

Tell them the truth; the modern interpretation of Santa was invented by illustrator Haddon Sundblom for Coca Cola to boost sales at Christmas in the early 1930's. Fact.

Santa was around before this, but not as a jolly, bearded fat guy in a red and white suit. Sundblom tweaked the existing interpretations (there were many) into something more charming and twee for children.

Originally posted by Agent Gypo
Tell them the truth; the modern interpretation of Santa was invented by illustrator Haddon Sundblom for Coca Cola to boost sales at Christmas in the early 1930's. Fact.

Santa was around before this, but not as a jolly, bearded fat guy in a red and white suit. Sundblom tweaked the existing interpretations (there were many) into something more charming and twee for children.

What has the history of it got to do with it?

I agree - I was going to reply to Cyclone, but got a pm :rolleyes:

I think you should do as the parents of the child want.

After I had stopped believing in Santa Claus, but my sister still did (FILTHFAN), I had to pretend to her and all of her school friends that I still believed. (Of course that got round the school and I got a lot of stick :rolleyes: )

But, I kept the magic up because she was happy believing it and my parents were still telling her.

I think it's great that children should be able to believe in something! Their age means that there are no repucussions from them believing something that is false because they have no real responsibilities.

If they were adults believing in something which is really when you think about it, ludicrous, then it would be a different matter because as an adult you have responsibilities but a small child believing shouldn't be a problem!

Plus - it gets them to go to bed at Christmas because Santa won't come unless you're asleep!

Originally posted by Agent Gypo
Tell them the truth; the modern interpretation of Santa was invented by illustrator Haddon Sundblom for Coca Cola to boost sales at Christmas in the early 1930's. Fact.

Santa was around before this, but not as a jolly, bearded fat guy in a red and white suit. Sundblom tweaked the existing interpretations (there were many) into something more charming and twee for children.

So you would tell this to a 5 year old? Sorry but I think they'd get confused! Or would you just tell them outright that it's a lie, so that they can then go to school and spoil it for the rest of the children like the kids at my school did when their parents or big brothers or sisters told them Santa wasn't real.

(There should be a question mark somewhere in that last bit, but I couldn't work out where to put it!)

Originally posted by Cyclone
What has the history of it got to do with it?

Everything.

If you want to tell children about santa, why not tell them about the real santa.

But AG,

You didn't give us anything about the 'real' santa, only about the new commercialised one...

Please - tell me more - would love to know what the 'real' santa was like! :clap:

Well if any kid comes to me and says "Whats santa bringing you?" I will say "Nothing because he isnt real"

I guess i wont be going to dawny1's house for a few months now ;)
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Originally posted by Mainframe
Well if any kid comes to me and says "Whats santa bringing you?" I will say "Nothing because he isnt real"

I guess i wont be going to dawny1's house for a few months now ;)

Well that's just cruel.

You could just interpret it as 'what are you getting for Christmas?' and be done with it!

Saying to a small child, who believes in something wonderful and magical that it's not real, is so cruel.

I don't think, from what you've said, you would have the child's interests at heart - ie. lying is bad, I think it's just that you want to be big and clever and you sound like a bully. :rant:

Originally posted by Mainframe
Well if any kid comes to me and says "Whats santa bringing you?" I will say "Nothing because he isnt real"

I guess i wont be going to dawny1's house for a few months now ;)

What was Christmas like in your house when you were little, do you have some bitter memories

Originally posted by Lotti
But AG,

You didn't give us anything about the 'real' santa, only about the new commercialised one...

Please - tell me more - would love to know what the 'real' santa was like! :clap:

He was a bishop, and not a particularly significant one at the time.

The internet is a wonderful resource, and the actual true story behind santa is more interesting than some fat guy and his flying reindeer.

My best xmas was probably when my gran stopped over because I never see her and spending all xmas with her was brilliant.

But I havent really had any other memorable xmas
________
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The way I handled this is when my kids were very young I let them believe, my youngest is 3 and I will let him leave a note and a chocolate crispy and glass of wine for Santa and a bottle of Vodka for his little helper Rudolf! :D ( Yes Mainframe I am Rudolf!) saying thank you for any presents.

When he starts to ask questions like my youngest daughter did I just said he is real as long as you want him to be.

Originally posted by Mainframe
Well if any kid comes to me and says "Whats santa bringing you?" I will say "Nothing because he isnt real"

I guess i wont be going to dawny1's house for a few months now ;)


and i bet you tell the truth all the time dont you.
its just a little white lie that instills belief & magic in the young.
when you get on in years surprisingly you'll be looking for that magic all over agian.

Originally posted by Agent Gypo
He was a bishop, and not a particularly significant one at the time.

The internet is a wonderful resource, and the actual true story behind santa is more interesting than some fat guy and his flying reindeer.


and he wore green not red.

I was at my sisters house one year when my neice and nephew were still young enough to believe in Santa, and watching the excitement on their faces as they got ready for bed and put out the milk and biscuits for him was really magical.

Then after they were asleep, all the creeping about putting the presents under the tree. I think me and my sister were nearly as excited as they were.

Originally posted by willman
and he wore green not red.

Also true.

hehe, as much as I can see your point Agent Gypo...

'Mum, is Santa coming with his sack ful of presents and his flying reindeer?'

'Not exactly son, he's a very insignificant bishop who wants to bring you a present'

'Oh...'

Originally posted by Lotti
hehe, as much as I can see your point Agent Gypo...

'Mum, is Santa coming with his sack ful of presents and his flying reindeer?'

'Not exactly son, he's a very insignificant bishop who wants to bring you a present'

'Oh...'

I'll teach my children to view the world with a cynical eye, and pray they become as unhappy as me. Now check this :partyhat: :banana:

Originally posted by Mainframe
Well if any kid comes to me and says "Whats santa bringing you?" I will say "Nothing because he isnt real"

I guess i wont be going to dawny1's house for a few months now ;)


is that going to make you feel big and clever? If you do I hope their parent lets your tyres down.

Originally posted by Cyclone
is that going to make you feel big and clever? If you do I hope their parent lets your tyres down.

LMAO! Me too!

I see it has this.You tell your kids not to talk to strangers and then christams comes and you take him/her to see "santa" and what you doing makeing your child take a present and talk to a stranger.

Now yes befor you ask i have a child.She knows santa is not real and that is my feeling for telling her.She not lost that magic touch for christmas,and she does not spoil it for other kids that do belive.She understands why i told her they no santa.And i remeber one time in rotherham,me my mate and our kids walking around town,and a bloke in a santa suite walking arround drunk.He offerd my mates kid a sweet and he took it yet she went mad at him for doing so for takeing a sweet from a stranger but as her kid said "but it santa mommy he wont hurt me" ???.
and why say ho if you not good santa wont come to our house for you this year if they bad is stupid to me.the mount of time i seen it with parents that say this,yet soon as the day comes they got what they asked for.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the whole Father Christmas thing. While it's nice and cute that children believe in magic, they're also led to believe that they can have anything they want from Father Christmas. Surely this instills a whole lot of greed into the mind of a young child.

I remember being young and thinking Father Christmas was great, but because he brought me presents more than the fact that he was magic.

Maybe this is more of a general Christmas concern than Father Christmas though. It seems that the Christmas is driven by greed more and more each year.

I thought that the original story of St. Nicholas (and Black Peter), involved kids being patted on the back for being good and punished for being bad. I don't think it involved an infinite amount of toys.

Originally posted by Lotti
...After I had stopped believing in Santa Claus, but my sister still did (FILTHFAN), I had to pretend to her and all of her school friends that I still believed....
Heck Lotti! You'd better break it to her quick! ... Before she reads it on here!

Even when kids have doubts about 'Santa', the bright ones don't ask too many questions... In case the presents stop coming! ;)

We definately should lie.

I mean, come on people !! The grown up world is so serious and boring at least the children should be having fun!!

It doesn't hurt anyone and its so exciting thinking Santa is coming !!

did you steal the drunk santas beer dieselbabe?

And your signature needs an apostrophe adding.

Rather than dumping on Santa who has never done any harm except bring children preesents, spend your energies on dispelling all the rubbish around Halloween.

Excuse me while I put on my video , 'The Devil Rides Out'. Best ever Hammer film.

Originally posted by Cyclone
did you steal the drunk santas beer dieselbabe?

And your signature needs an apostrophe adding.


No i did not steal the drink ??.i was thinking more of the safety of the kids at the time.

And about the signature bit,thank's but do not worrie about it as i don't :P .

I don't think there's any harm in letting children believe in father christmas, like another post said by the time they realise, they are old enough anyway, it's all part of the fun, christmas's never seem the same once they've sussed it,my kids all believed and my grandkids do now, why spoil it for them. it didn't do my kids any harm, and it is up to the parents anyway.

Should we really be lieing to kids by saying santa is real?

Why not, we take them to church or wherever, have them Christened or whatever & they even get education in R.E...
whats the difference?

Originally posted by Lotti
If they were adults believing in something which is really when you think about it, ludicrous, then it would be a different matter because as an adult you have responsibilities but a small child believing shouldn't be a problem!


you'd best nip down to your local church and break the news.

If Santa didn't bring presents, but was just some magical mythical dude, would children still find Christmas exciting? If not, then surely it's the presents that children find exciting more than the magic. In which case it's greed that makes it fun for them. Is that such an innocent idea?

My parents are always going on about how they received apples and oranges for Christmas. Why can't it still be like that?]

EDIT:

The more I think about it, maybe teaching children to be greedy is more damaging than we realise. Society as a whole is becoming more money driven and self-centred. Perhaps we are inadvertently setting the foundation for this at a very young age.

whoa, whoa, whoa!

This is about someone who isn't real.

There are religious people on this forum and I don't see christianity and God as a lie, so you can't compare the two!

It's fact that Santa's not real.

Keep to Santa please Don! ;)
edit to add - and Cyclone

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
Why not, we take them to church or wherever, have them Christened or whatever & they even get education in R.E...
whats the difference?

I whole heartedly agree! :)

Originally posted by Lotti
whoa, whoa, whoa!

This is about someone who isn't real.

There are religious people on this forum and I don't see christianity and God as a lie, so you can't compare the two!

It's fact that Santa's not real.

Keep to Santa please Don! ;)
edit to add - and Cyclone

Hey look, Santa delivered presents to me when I was younger (and obviously less naugthy) I have more evidence for his existence than for gods.
Seriously though, they are both equally plausible, you just have to take santa on faith man, if he had to prove that he existed, then it wouldn't be faith, qed - it's all a crock.

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
Why not, we take them to church or wherever, have them Christened or whatever & they even get education in R.E...
whats the difference?

And the converse is true, if the child hasn't been christened and is being brought up in fundamentalist agnostic family, he won't be being told lies about Santa, Tooth Fairies, Bogeymen, Trolls, Aliens etc.

Not quite sure I agree with everything said,

however, Santa never saved my life, Santa never answered any prayers (only in the form of my parents when I finally got the doll I'd been asking for for years), and I never experienced anything as good when I believed in Santa as I did with God.

This isn't a thread on religion, yes it's about faith, but not about any God, so don't bring it into it please... keep the tone light!

It's a shame it got dragged up as these are people's firm beliefs and what we live our lives by and we don't need to read messages about how our beliefs are on the same level as Santa Claus!

Don't see the point. What's up with Santa all of a sudden?

Originally posted by dizzy_one
Don't see the point. What's up with Santa all of a sudden?

I agree!

Santa is like performing a card trick or other prestidigitation on a young 'un.

They're too credulous to make it difficult, and you get the satisfaction of getting one over on a four year old.

You get the satisfaction of their wide-eyed wonder at a magic fat red bloke and his flying sleigh. They just experience wide eyed wonder.

In my opinion, it is better to be awe inspired by real things than things your parents made up to get one over on you.

what a bundle of joy you are! :hihi:

One of the most pathetic things I ever heard! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by dizzy_one
One of the most pathetic things I ever heard! :rolleyes:

What is?

Phanerothyme - I see your point, but it's not just to get one over on the kids. I do see your point about giving them something real to be awe inspired by, but this story has been going round for years, and it's not made up by the parents, it's kept up by the parents.

I suppose, this does make a difference to me, if not to you, because I wouldn't like to be the kid that knew Santa wasn't real, while all the other kids still believed.

I think it is wonderful to believe in Father Christmas, I can remember being convinced I heard sleigh bells when I was young. The look on my children's faces when they were little was enough to convince me that it is a good thing. Once they were old enough to really question me, I used to say that I believed in him, which was not really lying. I only told them the truth when I thought they would get too much stick at school for being babyish.

Christmas is not the same when there is no-one left who believes in Father Christmas, and I am looking forward to having grandchildren, so I can see their faces light up.

As to prompoting greediness - that is up to the parents, we never gave our children everything they asked for (they never asked for mucj anyway), and they wer as happy with the silly little things in their stockings as they were with the main presents under the tree.

I believe in you Father Christmas!

Was this inspired by the thread 'Great lies to tell really little kids'?! :D

We all do it to the young uns in some form or another

Let them have their piece of magic without worrying about warping their little minds, we have tv and school for that.......;)

Originally posted by sultana


As to prompoting greediness - that is up to the parents, we never gave our children everything they asked for (they never asked for mucj anyway), and they wer as happy with the silly little things in their stockings as they were with the main presents under the tree.


True.
We never got everything we asked for. Like I said in a previous post, every year I asked for a certain doll, 4 years on, I got it.

Every year without fail, I asked for a dog, never got one. (well at 17, but I didn't ask Santa for her!)

We loved the little bits we got in our stockings! even when mum and dad knew we didn't believe any more, they still put them up for us. It was only last year they stopped and it was well depressing :(

Originally posted by Lotti
What is?

Phanerothyme - I see your point, but it's not just to get one over on the kids. I do see your point about giving them something real to be awe inspired by, but this story has been going round for years, and it's not made up by the parents, it's kept up by the parents.

I suppose, this does make a difference to me, if not to you, because I wouldn't like to be the kid that knew Santa wasn't real, while all the other kids still believed.

The pleasure derived from Santa is experienced by adults. 'Getting one over' is a bit strong perhaps, but in exactly the same way as some people dress their little 'uns up like dollies, to look cute, telling them that Santa is somehow real is for the amusement of adults, not children. They look cute in their outfits and they are putting out mince pies and sherry for santa ('Aaah, how sweet').

Never mind that the quicker children will rapidly work out for themselves that Santa is another dumb lie told by adults.


"He sees you when your sleepin'
he knows when your awake,
he knows if you been bad or good
so be good for goodness sake"

Santa - Kindly Old Elf or CIA spook?

I think it's Okay. Christmas is so much more fun when you're a little kid and you wait up all night for Santa. As for sayin you'll tell your nephew my mum always said the same thing about us lot, but then she saw our little faces at the prospect of Santa and presents and it was too cute. When I found out, I just thought it was a great story. I wasn't gutted at all. Most kids nowadays are so materialistic, they don't care as long as they get gifts :P

Originally posted by Agent Gypo
Tell them the truth; the modern interpretation of Santa was invented by illustrator Haddon Sundblom for Coca Cola to boost sales at Christmas in the early 1930's. Fact.

Santa was around before this, but not as a jolly, bearded fat guy in a red and white suit. Sundblom tweaked the existing interpretations (there were many) into something more charming and twee for children.

Not fact, I'm afraid - urban myth. Check out Snopes.com for the debunk. (I believed it too)

However, I'm not going to tell my kids that Santa exists. At christmas time they will get presents off Mummy and Daddy. For some reason, whenever I tell people this I am suddenly treated to a semon on how that makes me a bad parent, and how I am being "cruel" to my kids!!! You know, like all those cruel people of other religions that don't tell their kids that Santa exists? I am an atheist - Christmas means only one thing to me....family. The giving of gifts, to me, is a way of showing loved ones that they mean a lot to us. I don't need a mythical bloke in a red suit to do that for me.

My parents didn't make any suggestion either way as to whether santa was real, it just wasn't something that was part of my life.

I can't ever remember knowing about santa and not knowing that he wasn't real.

I was absolutely shocked when I discovered that there were some people who had believed in him.

Fair enough dude, but the whole atheism thing...I'm pretty much a self-assessed atheist too, but Santaism ain't a religion.

It is lovely when kids believe in Father Christmas. It makes Christmastime more magical. Christmas is never the same when you don't believe. Why spoil that for children? Their childhood innocence is very short lived anyway. It is better for the child's developement if he is allowed to work out the truth for himself. It is a sign the the child is maturing. If a child gets told by an adult then it is harder for the child to accept and it is more likely to feel resentful.

Keep Christmas magical for kids.:clap:

I totally agree with Ally! How are kids expected to mature and grow if we don't let them lead their own lives in some aspects? It's only a Santa story, it's not a huge disgusting sordid lie. Come on, you lot! Don't you remember how happy you were as a kid believin in Santa?

My parents, Grandparents, Aunties and Uncles all convinced my brother, sisters and myself that there was a Santa who came down the chimney, sneaked into our bedrooms, left presents (in a pillowslip), crept into the living room, ate mince pies and drank a shot of whisky, then went next door. If they had told me then that he wasn't real, I'd have been devastated and Christmas wouldn't have been so mystical to me. THAT was the magic!



They kept the 'lie' going for as long as possible, and when I realised the truth through other kids who knew better, I still held on to the possibility that they might be wrong for another Christmas or two. Funnily enough, I never once felt that I had been lied to. In fact, I think I felt more conned about the crap I had been fed in RE and at church.

How has believing in Santa effected my life? Happy memories of a little boy who once believed in magic and a jolly old man who visited me once a year - if I was very, very good.

Any negative aspects? None at all.

A child's face whilst looking at Santa in Debenhams.....priceless.:)

I also appreciate the hard work my parents put in to ensure the 'lie' was believable for me. Believe me, having gone through it with my three sons (sadly too old now) it can be hard work pulling it off. But very, very worthwhile indeed!:thumbsup:

Why take the magic of Christmas away from the kids:confused:
If you want a miserable time at Christmas go and join Scrooge:rolleyes: You'll be saying there's no tooth fairy next:loopy: Hell they grow up all to soon . What's wrong with a few white lies now and again..And don't forget kids are a lot cleverer than we give them credit for. After a while they soon cotton on and play along.;) Just let them have fun while it lasts:thumbsup:

What if they let a 'fat man in a red suit' through the door one day and they rob you? :suspect: Would you trust a fat man in a red suit with a false beard! :D

Originally posted by Glory_Box
I totally agree with Ally! How are kids expected to mature and grow if we don't let them lead their own lives in some aspects? It's only a Santa story, it's not a huge disgusting sordid lie. Come on, you lot! Don't you remember how happy you were as a kid believin in Santa?

Yeah...I recall, being the bullied kid at school, how all the bullies got better present than me despite them not being 'good little boys'. Yeah..I love the way Santa rewarded them for their beating me up!

Not everyone has fond memories of Santa.

The Santa lie is just the beginning. How the whole world works is just one big lie!

Originally posted by burnttoast
Why take the magic of Christmas away from the kids:confused:
If you want a miserable time at Christmas go and join Scrooge:rolleyes: You'll be saying there's no tooth fairy next:loopy: Hell they grow up all to soon . What's wrong with a few white lies now and again..And don't forget kids are a lot cleverer than we give them credit for. After a while they soon cotton on and play along.;) Just let them have fun while it la
sts:thumbsup:

The magic of Christmas is great fun for the kids. Lets keep it that way.

DON'T LET ON TO THE P.C. PEOPLE or the E.U or YOU MAY LOOSE THE MAGIC OF CHRISTMAS FOR EVER.

I think it is OK to tell kids that Santa exists - it is part of the magic of the season.

I think it is definitely NOT OK to instill religion in children - it should be a choice an adult makes.

Doug Stanhope, a very funny and very crude US comic, talks about this on one of his CDs. He asks how many 18-year-olds, when presented with the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. for the first time would actually think it was a work of fact or fiction. And how many of them would then go on to believe in it?

Extending Stanhope's argument, people that believe in nonsense, like David Icke for example, are publicly humiliated for their beliefs because they are too wacky. I think the same would eventually apply to religion if it were outlawed in schools.

"What? You actually believe that stuff about God. Hah hah, you weirdo!"

Originally posted by Saint James
I think it is OK to tell kids that Santa exists - it is part of the magic of the season.

I think it is definitely NOT OK to instill religion in children - it should be a choice an adult makes.

Doug Stanhope, a very funny and very crude US comic, talks about this on one of his CDs. He asks how many 18-year-olds, when presented with the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. for the first time would actually think it was a work of fact or fiction. And how many of them would then go on to believe in it?

Extending Stanhope's argument, people that believe in nonsense, like David Icke for example, are publicly humiliated for their beliefs because they are too wacky. I think the same would eventually apply to religion if it were outlawed in schools.

"What? You actually believe that stuff about God. Hah hah, you weirdo!"

I agree with everything you have said..........the indoctrination of children, religious or otherwise, should be outlawed as it is nothing more than child abuse

I think you'll find that parents who do have a religious belief will try and instil it in their children in the same way as they would for any other values and beliefs they have - it's part of parenting.

When the child is old enough they will make their own decisions about religion as they will about everything else.

Just you don't believe in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is true for other people. Places where religious beliefs is outlawed aren't very nice places to live.

saint james - I'm not going to reply to your post about religion here despite having an opposite point of view.

Please, if it's something you feel strongly about, and are interested in, start a new thread where people can share their views but threads have been going very off topic recently so please try to keep on track ;)

Originally posted by Cranberry
I think you'll find that parents who do have a religious belief will try and instil it in their children in the same way as they would for any other values and beliefs they have - it's part of parenting.

When the child is old enough they will make their own decisions about religion as they will about everything else.

Just you don't believe in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is true for other people. Places where religious beliefs is outlawed aren't very nice places to live.

The duty of a parent is to provide a child with all the necessary information to enable it to make an informed choice when old enough to do so. I never said religious beliefs should be outlawed............only the indoctrination of children with said religious or other beliefs.

So what you're saying is that it's ok to have a religious belief but it becomes a crime if you want your children to follow the same beliefs as you do?

How is that workable in any religion? You go to church and leave the children at home. You observe Ramadan but you can't make your children observe it.

It doesn't make any kind of sense.

Originally posted by Cranberry
So what you're saying is that it's ok to have a religious belief but it becomes a crime if you want your children to follow the same beliefs as you do?

How is that workable in any religion? You go to church and leave the children at home. You observe Ramadan but you can't make your children observe it.

It doesn't make any kind of sense.

What rights have you to impose your religion on your children? A child is not your possession. A parent is in a privileged position and should not abuse that. Let's not just consider religion here, but any kind of belief ie Veganism, etc. What's wrong with explaining to the child what Mummy and Daddy do without imposing it upon them?

Depends on how you use language. I thought parents had the right to bring children up in their own faiths and beliefs. If you're a parent and you believe in something because you believe it's a good thing then of course you would encourage your children to believe in the same things. How on earth do you get from that position to somehow equating it with abuse?

Parents encourage children to follow their values and beliefs. If the child subsequently chooses to have different values and beliefs that's up to them. You seem to be lumping all parents together.

I guess the objection is to the indoctrinal nature of the way the values are passed on.
If I were ever silly enough to have children, I'd like to think that whilst they'd know how I felt about certain things, ie religion, i'd also try to let them see a balanced view and to allow them to make their own choice in so far as possible.
I suspect that most religous people would take the opposite view and not wish their child to harbour any heretical thoughts or even consider such ideas.

I suspect you make be making a sweeping generalisation about the behaviour of people with religious beliefs.

Very few of them are fundamentalists but as with everything in the media these are the ones we hear most about.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I guess the objection is to the indoctrinal nature of the way the values are passed on.
If I were ever silly enough to have children, I'd like to think that whilst they'd know how I felt about certain things, ie religion, i'd also try to let them see a balanced view and to allow them to make their own choice in so far as possible.
I suspect that most religous people would take the opposite view and not wish their child to harbour any heretical thoughts or even consider such ideas.

Exactly Cyclone.

Originally posted by Cranberry
I suspect you make be making a sweeping generalisation about the behaviour of people with religious beliefs.

Very few of them are fundamentalists but as with everything in the media these are the ones we hear most about.

true. I've yet to meet anyone who actually believed that has brought up their children with an open mind though.

It probably says somewhere in the bible "Thout shall raise your progeny to worship me or a terrible blight be upon thy house". Or words to that effect.

I'm sure it doesn't say that in the Bible. Care to ask a muslim whether it says that in the Koran or are you just having a pop at Christianity?

Originally posted by 1Man&hisBMW
What if they let a 'fat man in a red suit' through the door one day and they rob you? :suspect: Would you trust a fat man in a red suit with a false beard! :D

Same goes for a skinny bloke with a beard long hair and sandles.With a thorny hairband.:rolleyes:

Everything's o.k till religion raises its ugly head:o

Ne mind kids Santas on his way:clap:

We wish you a merry Christmas .We wish you a merry.........

I don't remember ever believing in Santa. I think that must be because as soon as you're old enough to contemplate what Santa would have to achieve to get presents to everyone in the world, you realise he can't be real.

Originally posted by Cranberry
I'm sure it doesn't say that in the Bible. Care to ask a muslim whether it says that in the Koran or are you just having a pop at Christianity?
I think you'll find it's a general pop at religion. And I'm pretty sure it says all sorts of rubbish in the bible, some of which is contradictory rubbish.

You guys ever see CNNNN, the Australian satirical news program? Very very funny sketches. They send one of their guys to the Bible Belt in the US (now they really are weirdos and deserve public humiliation á la Icke) and he asks Joe Public some pretty innocent-sounding questions.

Of course, for comedic effect, they only show the most stupid responses but fvck me there are some really stupid responses.

Check some of them out: CNNNN video archive (http://www.abc.net.au/cnnnn/video)

Good ones include:
Saint Donald Bradman - Who to bomb next? (2003 archive)
People Believe The Darnedest Things - Chumba (2002 archive)
DVD - Holy Homosexuals (2003 archive)

Now I'm not saying that armed religious fanatics are dangerous, but these are the fvckwits that voted Dubya back in...

Originally posted by Sidla
I don't remember ever believing in Santa. I think that must be because as soon as you're old enough to contemplate what Santa would have to achieve to get presents to everyone in the world, you realise he can't be real.

Same happened to me regarding some silly stories I'd been force-fed concerning an old geezer who managed to part the Red Sea, another bloke who built a boat big enough to carry two of every land animal, some carpenter's son who fed 5000 people with a handful of cod and a large sliced loaf, a lass who had a nipper even though she'd never been past first base, and some weirdo who talked to burning bushes.

Now if you're expected to believe all this, then believing in an old, jolly bloke in red who can cover the globe in one night in a sleigh pulled by eight reindeer is so much easier. And to be blunt, a damn sight more believable.

Originally posted by Cranberry
I'm sure it doesn't say that in the Bible. Care to ask a muslim whether it says that in the Koran or are you just having a pop at Christianity?

I think Joel (OT), in the Bible, is pretty much an entire (admittedly short) book that warnd of dire consequences if you don't venerate God. Of course it's in the Old Testament, and a bit like Old Labour - no-one really takes it seriously any more. Or if they did [take the OT seriously, not Old Labour], Christian Britain would be a great deal more unpleasant.

I was certainly never under any illusions about Santa, as it was obviously my dad in a silly mask who came in with a big sack of presents. I remember my mum calling him by his name rather than 'Jultomten'.

I understand that in certain parts of Spain, the Yule Log is covered in a blanket and beaten with sticks by the children of the household, who then leave and return to find the log gone, and a big pile of presents under the blanket. Since I saw this on teletubbies, they didn't go too deeply into the original mythic story behind it.

Parents make up stories to get their kids to behave in certain ways. Santa's depositions are proportionate (we are told) to the goodness of the child. Children were threatened with 'Napoleon' coming to get them in that era, just another bogeyman.

What's most interesting is that you tend to do what your parents did - mine never lied to me about Santa, I knew the story and I knew the reality, and they both delighted me.

So my boy will be happy to correct you if you start telling him about Santa, Heaven, or the Tooth Fairy as if they were real.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
So my boy will be happy to correct you if you start telling him about Santa, Heaven, or the Tooth Fairy as if they were real.

But Heaven is real. A man in a frock told me.

heh heh

I feel this thread should be terminated immediately just in case Santa logs on and Sheffield gets left off the present list this year.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme


I understand that in certain parts of Spain, the Yule Log is covered in a blanket and beaten with sticks by the children of the household, who then leave and return to find the log gone, and a big pile of presents under the blanket. Since I saw this on teletubbies, they didn't go too deeply into the original mythic story behind it.

.
Nowt wrong wi floggin your log at Christmas mate! :hihi:

Has anyone heard the Bill Hicks joke about the easter bunny?
He says he was in Austraila and they were celebrating the death and resurrection of Christ the same way that we do.

By telling our kids that a giant bunny rabbit comes and hides chocolate eggs around their house... and it anywonder that our society is messed up!!!! :D