I hope you can help me.

:-)

I had my induction interview with a 'Job Club' today ... and I didn't like it one bit.

Although I am highly talented in my specialised field ... I have been on JSA benefit for the last 12 months.

The advisor (at the benefits office where I sign on) who arranged my induction interview ... 'forgot' to mention that the scheme would be compulsory etc ... and I have been leat somewhat up the garden path.

Anyway at my induction interview ...

I was explaining that I am self-taught and highly capable in my specialist field and have produced a string of video games ... all off my own bat ... that have done very well.

They made it very clear that they were not at all interested in this ... and I got the distinct impression that they don't have my best interests at heart and would be more than happy to foist any old job on me.

I am most alarmed !! ... and do not intend to accept any old job when I have specialist skills.

I am considering subversive tactics ....

But would be great to get other people's ideas and what I can do in this situation ... and where I stand etc ...

Ideas (useful) please ...

I've been in that position, Jamie. The people at the benefits office simply want to tick all the available boxes on their forms.

eg:

[ ] Available for work immediately
[ ] Will accept any job
[ ] Is willing to commute for six hours a day
[ ] Will accept mimimum wage

...etc

Why? Because they're civil servants and they've got their targets to hit.

The Job Club idea is good (free access to newspapers and stationery of sorts) but it can be soul destroying after a while. The one I was at (in Liverpool, many years ago) was full of chavs and other losers who had no chance of finding a job - I think they only went there for the company.

My advice would be to stick with it for a while and show your face occasionally which should get them off your back.

If you've been out of work for 12 months, wouldn't you rather be working while you try to find a job in the games industry?

:rolleyes: Go to your doctor and tell him you have depression and ask for a sick note getting you out of job club;)

Hi Jamie,

if you really want to enjoy your work then it seems you've got to go out there and find it for yourself! have you done a thorough search via the internet (and more importantly personal contacts) for a company you would love to work for?

Once you have a short list of companies - you have to get a personal appointment with the guy/gal able to hire you - then you've got to impress them with your total desire to give that company your soul for the chance to bring your awesome talents (I've seen your site so I have an idea how good you are) to their benefit... FOR FREE (or at least bare minimum salary)

Then aim to make yourself invaluable to that company as quickly as possible... I mean shift into TOP GEAR - don't just think you're an employee - think this is your LIFE! - you are going for employee of the century award!

And make genuine friends with the decision makers in your company and ask for their help (subtly!) getting that plumb role you'd really like to have inside the company - by this time it will be clear to everyone you deserve a pay-rise / better position and bob's your preverbial uncle! Give it 2 years and you'll be in wage slave heaven! ;)

I'd disagree with what's said above - I would never, ever go to an employer and accept a pathetic wage from the off without putting up a fight. If you start like that then you're gonna get walked all over the entire time you're there. Obviously don't go in trying to push them about but make it clear you won't stand for any crap.

12 months is a long time to be unemployed.

The only suggestion I can make is that the perfect job very rarely falls at your feet.

You need to be pro-active, ring companies up, forward them CV's. Don't give up if they turn you down, ask them if they can pass your details on to someone else etc.

Also what is wrong with accepting a IT job, that perhaps doesn't have the salary to your liking. But this job can be used as a stop gap to open up opportunites in your area of specialism. It must be better, getting paid to do something than sponging of JSA?

Life is all about opportunity, except you need to make that opportunity happen.

Skatie

Might wanna check out this recruitment consultants that specialise in your area

http://www.aswift.com/

I realise you probably know about them already but couldn't hurt :)

I'm a graphic designer, and most of the people that graduated along with me did it the hard way.

Make some professional looking stationery and a CV, and get a good portfolio together. Then just call companies around the area introducing yourself. Say that you'd like to meet up with them and have the opportunity to show your work. If they like you (and your work) they might suggest - or be open to the suggestion of - a short placement.

This would probably be unpaid and last two weeks to a month or so. In that time, you slave away all day, doing the jobs they dont want to do (cutting, pasting, mounting etc) and basically just do what you're told.

But this is the time when you can impress them. And you've now got your foot in the door, too.

Then you try this at as many companies as possible in the hope that one of them will want to give you a job.

A friend of mine did this in London for a whole year, but it did finally land her a job at one of the world's leading agencies.

So it can pay off, and is the best way to get in. If you wait for it to come to you, you'll be in for a long wait, cos it's a tight industry that's based on reputation and contacts.

Get to know people, get your name out there, get your work seen and it might just get you a job.

It totally sucks, but it's the best way.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
I'd disagree with what's said above - I would never, ever go to an employer and accept a pathetic wage from the off without putting up a fight. If you start like that then you're gonna get walked all over the entire time you're there. Obviously don't go in trying to push them about but make it clear you won't stand for any crap.

Would you employ yourself with that attitude?

there's no such thing as a free lunch... unless you're happy to eat the crap someone else decides to give to you. :thumbsup:

I think the stragaty that alert_bri was suggesting was ...



Make yourself as amenable and as benificial as possible to the employer in the early stages of your employment.

Ideally making them as dependent on your as possible ... make yourself indespensable to them.

Make friends with people in a position of influence withing the company.

Subtley infer that it would be a good idea if you were payed more money etc ... (which they don't mind doing cos they like you and you're a good thing for the company) ... and this should not come across as a threat.

Not a good idea to create too many hurdles in the early stages (of anything really).

I have to agree that it's got to be better to be working in ANY job whilst looking for something more suitable than to be claiming benefit.

I am in no way getting at you but there is a bloke on my college course who has been on the dole forever and a day, his reasoning is he hasn't been offered any jobs that he wants, erm hello we all do jobs we don't want! I pay nearly £500 a year to this course while he pays naff all, it infuriates me.

Just a suggestion, if you are going to be submitting CVs then make sure you get someone to check your spelling and grammar. The person responsible for hiring you will probably have a grasp of English whereas the people with whom you may be working may not. Don't be fooled by the latter group, it's the older people who learnt correct spelling and grammar who will have the final say on whether or not you get the job.

You could also do what I did on graduation which was to send my CV to every company who looked as if they might have a computer. A lot easier in 1988 I'll grant you.

To say I'm 18 my CV is suprisingly good!

Originally posted by GazB
To say I'm 18 my CV is suprisingly good!

At my age seeing someone with Age:18 on their CV can be a little dispiriting, especially in the IT industry.

Originally posted by steelblade
...he hasn't been offered any jobs that he wants, erm hello we all do jobs we don't want! I pay nearly £500 a year to this course while he pays naff all, it infuriates me.
I'm sure there are actually people out there who love their job (I used to be one of them!) - but more often than not they had to work their way up and into the job they love... not many people have a dream job dropped into their lap ;)

...and you probably value your course by at least £500 more than your poor friend - which means you'll take better attention and get more out of it? which means you'll know your stuff better at the end of it and get a better job? sounds fair to me ;)

Originally posted by max
At my age seeing someone with Age:18 on their CV can be a little dispiriting, especially in the IT industry.

I'm glad you raised that. I recently applied for a job that was perfect, I had the relevant experience and along with other apects I matched the job description perfectly! So I deleted the D.O.B from my CV and sent it on. I had 2 successful interviews, it was at the very end of the 2nd interview when they looked very interested when they asked me "Oh, how old are you by the way?"

I didn't get the job. That was the only question I didn't prepare for. I would have liked to have said "I didn't put it on there because I wanted to be judged on my skills and experience rather than my age".. I just blanked and said "Erm, 18.. *sigh*"

Originally posted by max
At my age seeing someone with Age:18 on their CV can be a little dispiriting, especially in the IT industry.
time for a change max? how about web publishing... oh no I forgot the 13 year old competition is too stiff :D

Now that's a good idea for a debate - who thinks you should be judged on age for a job? people are thrown on the scrap heap in their mid 50's and I think it's a total waste... equally people in their teens are ignored when they have incredibly sharp, imaginative minds not dulled by bad experience... it beggars belief sometimes :rolleyes:

what do you think? at what age is someone worthless? :)

A guy that graduated the year before me was about 45, and he couldnt find work.
He was older than the majority of people he'd be interviewed by, and nobody wanted to take him on.

He even went on the Kilroy show to talk about this issue. The program was something like "over 40 and on the scrapheap"

It's a shame, however good you are, sometimes it doesnt matter because of your age, wether old or young.

And on the subject of evading Job Club, sign off the dole.
Get a part time job and earn some cash, spend the other bit of time you have looking for proper work.

Stay on the dole and you gotta do what they tell ya. It's the price you pay for your fortnightly cheque.

(....looking forward to hearing from all those people who love to use words like "scroungers" and "scummers" on here and who were dead against the guy from wife swap with the hordes of kids....I might go back and read a few old threads so that I can see where the criticism should come from.

But it wont, because it is much easier to generalise about people in the round, nameless, faceless people, than it is people who you know and enjoy spending time with. I am glad about that but it will show up hypocrisy of that you can be sure)


Dear Jamie

The only way I know how to get the job you want, doing what you want, in a very small field, is through word of mouth.

So talk to people you used to work with and got on with and talk to people who do similar things now but you havent worked with and talk to people who work in the video games world more generally, perhaps those who market them and find out who is hiring and who is firing and also find out if the bottom has dropped out of the market. Because if there is NO-ONE hiring in that field then you are NOT going to get a job so you will have to plan to do something else.

Love as always

Belle

Originally posted by alert_bri
Would you employ yourself with that attitude?

there's no such thing as a free lunch... unless you're happy to eat the crap someone else decides to give to you. :thumbsup:

I would yes and have employed people with that attitude in the past, I wouldn't want someone who couldn't stand up for themself to work for me tbh - if they can't stand up for themselves with me what are they going to be like with customers. I see where you are coming from but you also gotta show that you aren't gonna let them trample all over you. For example one of my housemates started working at a bar on very poor wages and they wouldn't let him have breaks. He didn't complain as he wanted to impress them, now 2 years down the line he's still on the same crappy wage, still no breaks and they walk all over him while his workmates have had pay rises etc. :)

Originally posted by fnkysknky
I would yes and have employed people with that attitude in the past, I wouldn't want someone who couldn't stand up for themself to work for me tbh - if they can't stand up for themselves with me what are they going to be like with customers. I see where you are coming from but you also gotta show that you are gonna let them trample all over you. For example one of my housemates started working at a bar on very poor wages and they wouldn't let him have breaks. He didn't complain as he wanted to impress them, now 2 years down the line he's still on the same crappy wage, still no breaks and they walk all over him while his workmates have had pay rises etc. :)
I see what you mean - I was actually talking about working within a highly technical company with specialist knowledge required (my own background) - the field I imagine Jamie is interested in working... in that field you have to get your foot in the door and prove your technical worth - something I believe Jamie could do very quickly from my impression here.

I think in bar work / retail / other more general jobs your approach would be worth considering - but I believe it pays to give your job 100% - and look to gain experience quickly then move to where you will be rewarded in a better job. :)

Just wanted to say a big thank you to you all for you're ideas and suggestions.

Very useful and much apprecieated :-)

It's all down to me now ......

You checked out the site I posted Jamie - there's usually loads of opening on there. Good luck anyway :)

Job Clubs suck anyway.

I went on one when I was 19, and I was the oldest guy there, most of the others were School leavers who had been sent there by their careers advisors at School.

Pfft.... careers "advisor"?! Meh, a bloody trained talking chimp could give out better careers advise then most of them.

Sorry, but I had a particularly bad experience of the Dole and Job Clubs back in the day, so I have a rather tainted view of them to put it politely.

Jamie- Just had a thought.. You're C++ qualified, why not offer teaching this subject? People would pay hundreds! The official courses cost thousands..

If I saw an add that said
"Learn C++ within a month for £x" I'd jump at the chance (if the price was right ;) )

Never understood why people go on those programming courses, buy a book for £30 and you're done.

well .. my first day there .. complete waste of time .. I said I would like a programming job please .. all I got back was .. "err .. what's that then?" .... eeek !!

GazB:

Yeah I've got the experience and ability .. but nufortunately I taught myself and have no qualifications (personally I think the fact that I taught myself is a big positive .. shows that I'm motivated and a self-starter etc).

I also did a C&G teaching certificate ..

fnkysknky:

I've been in contat with Ardvark Swift before .. I'll prob give them another go .. thanks :-)

Originally posted by fnkysknky
Never understood why people go on those programming courses, buy a book for £30 and you're done.

I recon it's because employers take you on based on your qualifications ... and are not at all interested in your actual skills or proven abitlity to program.

[/bitter and twisted]

Well yeah I have experience in Basic, Visual Basic, Pascal, Delphi, C, C++, Smalltalk and probably some other languages that I've forgot about but as I taught myself with books the only relevant qualification I have is a Computer Studies A Level. Obviously if I applied for a programming job it wouldn't look that great on paper even though I know I could do the job, well. Good job I have no intention of applying for one then isn't it :)

Jamie- You can sit the exams without taking the course. Sit all the programming exams and you'll have the qualification! You already have the knowledge, all you need is the bit of paper that proves it.

That's what I'm doing at the moment, filling my head with all the MCP stuff and I'll just sit the exams when I'm ready.

Hiya Jamie,

You could consider a man's life in Her Majesty's Corp of IT Contractors...:-)

Seriously, if you've got games standard C++ development skills then you'd have no problems getting your CV in front of a few clients via agencies. I currently contract through Spring as a VB developer and have been with HBOS in Leeds for about 3 years now.

I've contracted and freelanced in VB / SQL / Web Development and such for about 15 years and it's a nice compromise between a regular pay packet and time for your own stuff. At teh moment I do a 4 day week and spend the 5th day on my own projects. You might consider doing a three or 6 month contract and then take time out for your own projects. Not perfect but very workable.

You don't even have to have your own limited company - you can operate through umbrella companies who'll deal with invoicing and such for you and then pay you and handle your tax.

Hope this helps,

Joe

With regard to examinations, I think my experience has helped me avoid having to show any paper qualifications. After all, I was doing this stuff only shortly after Bill and IBM got the PC out....:-)

Examination qualifications such as the Microsoft things are great if you can afford them and if you're in a situation where you have two equally balanced candidates, where the paper qualification will carry you through. HOWEVER, bear in mind that you may have to re-sit them every now and again to keep them current - many VB developers I know will be resitting their Microsoft exams when .NET came along to stay current.

Before spending money on these, get your CV sorted out and float it to some agencies, and then let tehm do the legwork.

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Hiya Jamie,

You could consider a man's life in Her Majesty's Corp of IT Contractors...:-)

Seriously, if you've got games standard C++ development skills then you'd have no problems getting your CV in front of a few clients via agencies. I currently contract through Spring as a VB developer and have been with HBOS in Leeds for about 3 years now.

I've contracted and freelanced in VB / SQL / Web Development and such for about 15 years and it's a nice compromise between a regular pay packet and time for your own stuff. At teh moment I do a 4 day week and spend the 5th day on my own projects. You might consider doing a three or 6 month contract and then take time out for your own projects. Not perfect but very workable.

You don't even have to have your own limited company - you can operate through umbrella companies who'll deal with invoicing and such for you and then pay you and handle your tax.

Hope this helps,

Joe


That sounds great Joe ... I'll send you a PM asking for more info :-)

Although ... things have gotten a lot better for me ... I've just got a contract to do a project on Gameboy Advance.

Plus ... I really want to push my own gameboy advance game projects !! ...

I know you Joe, our path crossed @ one of the HBOS building in Leeds about 3 months ago. (The old Leeds permanet HQ one).

I don't think you reconised me despite being about arm length away.

I leave now to let you rattle your brains and figure out who I might be.

You could consider a man's life in Her Majesty's Corp of IT Contractors...:-)

Seriously, if you've got games standard C++ development skills then you'd have no problems getting your CV in front of a few clients via agencies. I currently contract through Spring as a VB developer and have been with HBOS in Leeds for about 3 years now.

I've contracted and freelanced in VB / SQL / Web Development and such for about 15 years and it's a nice compromise between a regular pay packet and time for your own stuff. At teh moment I do a 4 day week and spend the 5th day on my own projects. You might consider doing a three or 6 month contract and then take time out for your own projects. Not perfect but very workable.

You don't even have to have your own limited company - you can operate through umbrella companies who'll deal with invoicing and such for you and then pay you and handle your tax.

Could you post some links, or let me know where I can look for info on this type of thing please?

Cheers

Hi John,

Sorry!! No 'blanking' intended. To be frank I could meet my own mother in Lovell Park Road and not recognise her some days!

Yes, I've been at the old Leeds Perm site for almost 3 years now. I started with Anti-Money Laundering Compliance and now do Point of Sale systems design and development up on the 4th floor.

Now...I've met two or three people that I've previously known whilst being at HBOS, so...I wonder, who could you be?

Anyway...I'm in the HBOS internal E-Mail address book....so drop me a line!

Joe

Hi Rarstar,

I'll put some notes together and post them...:-)

I feel like a Recruiting Sergeant right now, offering the King's Shilling!

Joe

why not try logging on to

http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/cms.asp?Page=/Home

scan through the numerous dead end jobs theyve got on there,then ring them to enquire about one.

Each time you do this its logged against your national insurance number, so,when you go to sign on,they have a record that you have been actively seeking work.

i know this is sneaky but like other people with skills,i dont want to end up in the first pidgeon hole they put you in to keep the figures down. its true what you say jamie, they dont give a toss what you want,its what THEY want

In my experience, skills and qualifications don't count for anything. It's *experience* people want. Which can be somewhat elusive when you're not employed for office work because you don't have experience of working in an office for x number of months :loopy:
Particularly frustrating was when I was told I couldn't do a temporary job entering data into a computer (which I was phoning as a last resort) because I hadn't done a paid similar job before. Never mind that I achieved a top A level grade in Computing, including an A for coursework which involved creating a database from scratch then *entering data into it* and had done a year of a Computer Science degree...

Originally posted by SilentStatic
In my experience, skills and qualifications don't count for anything. It's *experience* people want. Which can be somewhat elusive when you're not employed for office work because you don't have experience of working in an office for x number of months :loopy:
Particularly frustrating was when I was told I couldn't do a temporary job entering data into a computer (which I was phoning as a last resort) because I hadn't done a paid similar job before. Never mind that I achieved a top A level grade in Computing, including an A for coursework which involved creating a database from scratch then *entering data into it* and had done a year of a Computer Science degree...

Sounds to me more like you were overqualified. Although none of those quals indicate anything about your ability to enter data quickly and accurately, so there's no reason for them to have given you that job on the basis of your quals. If you had an NVQ in data entry (should such a thing exist) you may at least have gotten a tryout.

I often have to try and convince potential employers that I won't get bored and that, yes, I can stick it. I'm not often successful it must be said.

Originally posted by SilentStatic
In my experience, skills and qualifications don't count for anything. It's *experience* people want. Which can be somewhat elusive when you're not employed for office work because you don't have experience of working in an office for x number of months :loopy:
Particularly frustrating was when I was told I couldn't do a temporary job entering data into a computer (which I was phoning as a last resort) because I hadn't done a paid similar job before. Never mind that I achieved a top A level grade in Computing, including an A for coursework which involved creating a database from scratch then *entering data into it* and had done a year of a Computer Science degree...

I agree that qualifications mean nothing (to me).

But skills !? ... surely skills equate to ability !? ... are skills not the result of experience !?

As for the data entry job ... I agree with phan ... u sound way too over qualified ... sounds more like a job for a supermarket checkout monkey than a skilled programmer !!

The person telling you that you couldn't do the job ... words fail me.

Originally posted by Jamie
sounds more like a job for a supermarket checkout monkey than a skilled programmer !!

:o

You'd be amazed how many supermarket checkout 'monkeys' are ex-burned out professionals or mums who need to work around their kids! Try chatting with a few and gain some experience!

/rant off :thumbsup:

Originally posted by alert_bri
You'd be amazed how many supermarket checkout 'monkeys' are ex-burned out professionals or mums who need to work around their kids! Try chatting with a few and gain some experience!

Really Brian !? ... and I thought they just shipped them in from twcross zoo !!! hehe :-) ... (joke)

Originally posted by Jamie
I agree that qualifications mean nothing (to me).

But skills !? ... surely skills equate to ability !? ... are skills not the result of experience !?

As for the data entry job ... I agree with phan ... u sound way too over qualified ... sounds more like a job for a supermarket checkout monkey than a skilled programmer !!

The person telling you that you couldn't do the job ... words fail me.

Thing is jamie, when they say that they are saying it from experience.

I had a hard time with my agency convincing them to take me on for a data entry job. It was a six month contract and boy was it dull. By the end I was virtually gnawing my own arm off, but I stuck it for 6 months just to show them.

And I agree with Bri. Having a job commensurate with your skills is not always what you want. Sometimes a simple MacJob whilst you concentrate more fully on life's real pleasures is just what is required, but the employers have long ago grown wise to the fact the the vast majority of 'overqualifieds' end up quitting or walking because they think their intelligence is constantly being insulted.

Hi,

I'm not sure I agree with the 'get a Macjob to allow you to focus on what you really want to do' way forward. The hours are usually long, the pay, by definition, crap and the stress of doing work that might indeed induce you to chew an arm off is quite high!

the result is that if you then want to do soem sort of 'creative' work in your own time it's difficult to do so. If having a Macjob means you're stressed for money as well, tehn it takes a peculiar sort of mind to be creative whilst starving - ignore tha 'starving artists in garretts' rubbish. All you think about if you're really hard up with the bailiffs calling is when they'll call again!

I'd prefer to get a temporary / contract job, build up the money then spend soem tiem working my own projects full time - or do a 3 or 4 day a week temp / contract job and leave time for your own projects like that. Money's better, less stress, more interesting.

Joe

For those that asked....

Most agencies who deal with IT contracting will want to deal with a Limited Company. You can :

a. Set your own up (costs about 100, but you need to have a separate bank account and find soemone else to act as either Director or Company Secretary with you).

b. Use the services of an Umbrella company who effectively employ you for the duration of your contract. They charge for the privelege but you get paid after having your tax deducted so it's a no brainer in terms of accountancy.

If you don't know whether you'll stick contracting, (b) is best.

For general information, look at www.jsagroup.co.uk - these guys are the Umbrella company I use. Despite the initials no relation to Job Seekers Allowance!

Option (a) used to be very cost effective in terms of minimising income tax as you could pay yousrelf a low salary and take the rest of your pay in Dividends, which are taxed at a low rate. HOWEVER, Gordon closed this option with something called IR35 so unless you plan to make a go of contracting permanently I'd avoid the hassle of (a) until you're sure.

Skills Required
==========
Currently saleable skills are C++, VB, SQL, Web skills - just check out Jobserve for an idea. www.jobserve.co.uk

Providing you have the skills and are reasonably personable you'll get work. The latter is quite important - as a contractor you're expected to hit the ground running and be productive very quickly. This means you don't have the time to upset the permies!

The Advantages of Contracting
======================
Flexibility and pay. You'll get paid more than you would as a permie and you can be flexible in when and where you work. Typical contract lengths are 3 or 6 months, though extensions are becoming more common again. I started my current contract at HBOS in 2001 on a 6 month contract, and have been extended several times since then. If you want to take time out, simply do so at the end of a contract. You also avoid the office politics!

And by doing short term contracts you don't get so bored and your skills / experience develop.

Disadvantages
==========
Lack of security, although nowadays a lot of permie jobs seem to be on a short term basis as well!! :-) NEVER expect a contract to be extended. Always start looking a month or so in advance of the end date. You have to find your own Health Insurance, Training, Pension, run your car, etc. Some expenses are reclaimable through the umbrella company or your own Limited company, but take an Accountant's advice or the advice of teh Umbrella company. Flexibility works two ways - sometimes when the ****'s hitting the fan you'll be expected to put in longer hours. You don't get promoted. You almost certainly won't get management responsibility. You're not really 'part' of the company.

In fact, I ike to think of myself as an IT Soldier of Fortune - a sort of mercenary! Much more romantic!

Going Native
=========
Some contracts go on, and on, and on...you start getting invitatyions to Christmas parties and such....you're becoming a highly paid part of the company. I call it 'Going Native' after what happened to the British Empire wallahs who took on board Indian wives and large palaces in the 18th Century. You might eventually be asked to join the company, but there are occasionally problems here, mainly taking a whacking pay cut and negotiating fees with the agency. Another facet of Going Native is when a lot of management decisions get batted towards you for advice, or when you start identifying with 'cliques' in the company. Your loyalty is basically to the team you work for and the person who manages you and signs your timesheets. Stay out of the politics in a professional manner and you'll have a good contracting career.

If you want to 'belong', go permanent.

Well, hope this helps - Jamie, will reply off forum as well but I'm off out now to do the 'day job':-)

Have a good day, all!

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Hi,

I'm not sure I agree with the 'get a Macjob to allow you to focus on what you really want to do' way forward....Joe

hmm I actually said "concentrate on life's pleasures"

but top info on becoming an IT guerilla there, thx!

Hiya,

I stand corrected! Sorry about that - as I get older even the short term memory grinds to a halt.

:-)