Does anyone have any information about the Sheffield Gang Wars of the 1920's?

I know there is some books that can be bought but was wanted some basic information.

I don't know much but I think the two main gangs involved were the Moony gang and the Garvin gang.
A special group of police was formed to sort them all out, they were all the biggest hardest cops available.
They didn't mess around and were not restricted in how much violence they could use. They soon had the gangs sorted out.

I did read one of those books once, but it was a long time ago. I got it from the library.

It all started when the gangs used to gamble on a game where they throw stones against a wall (nearest the wall type game I guess) They used to play this on Wybourn overlooking the city. The main players all used to live around Lady's Bridge (Start of Wicker)where there was loads of slums Can not remember much more.

Facinating book you should get it.

you can buy books on sheff gang wars from the star shop on york street in town.

Originally posted by "tinajones"

you can buy books on sheff gang wars from the star shop on york street in town.

Yes, I have seen that book it's £7.99 and I am thinking of purchasing. I just wanted a bit of background knowledge.

It was before my time, but as a young boy I was told by my family that during the Mooney and Garvin gang period no one dare leave their home after dark for fear of being attacked and robbed ( whats new?)

I believe the Government brought in a Scottish inspector (Shillito ) to deal with the situation and he put Policemen on the beat in pairs and raided the homes of known offenders until the gang's were broken.

This I believe, was the period between the wars when unemployment was rife and people were on a starvation level, having to face the board of guardians if they were destitute and made to feel like scroungers to get a few shillings.

The Tory government said the country couldn't afford to pay unemployment benefit then when the war started they were spending a million pounds a day on fighting it.

The Tory government said the country couldn't afford to pay unemployment benefit then when the war started they were spending a million pounds a day on fighting it

No change there then!

Hi, sorry for the late reply, but I only just discovered this site.
A really good book on The Sheffield Gang Wars is of that name, by JP Bean. We've had a copy for years, but thats because its got my grand-dad in it, who was involved (bad lad). :blush:

I'm a writer currently working on a play for the Crucible Theatre, based loosely on the Sheffield Gang Wars.

My play deals with the Fowler Brothers, who were part of Sam Garvin's Park Brigade mob, and sentenced to death for the murder of ex-serviceman William Francis Plommer on Princess Street. The murder took place on the night following Sheff Utd's victory over Cardiff in the 1925 FA Cup final.

Whether the Fowlers were guilty, or just scapegoats, is still debateable.

Does anyone have any - or knows of any stories about that time -not just the Gang Wars, but ordinary life in the slums back then?

remember being told by late father-in-law Harry Fox that the gangs used to spend a lot of time at 'Sky Edge' Wybourn, where there used to be a dog track.

I have recently found out that certain members of my family were mooney gang memebers in the 1920's and have some information on the mooney etc.

come on then nicdvdsn are you gonna tell us what you know?

It's under investigation at the moment mikey, trying to get together all the details before I broadcast.

HAVE U READ THE BOOK ON SHEFFIELD GANG WARS AVAILABLE FROM SHEFFIELD LIBRARIES

yeah .... this is very interesting because my late grandfather ...

a Mr Charlie Muss Manning Late of tipton st Brightside ( son Des Manning .... Sheff soccer schoolboys 1943 )

spoke of several 1920s 30s ? 'encounters' with these bad lads ...apparantly Charlie being rather 'handy' the gang were keen to recruit his skills ( bare knuckle fairground fighting etc in his time off from the pit or Steel Peach tozer or similar works

Tho they discovered ... He was havin none of it.

Any info on charlie Manning ( wife elsie) or his son Des Manning would be most welcome for me to share further tales ... I 'll have a look at the book but any stories from the elder statesmen out there or their well informed sons & grandsons / daughters ..HAS ANY ONE GOT ACCESS TO ANY PHOTOS OF THIS ERA (20s to 40s) BARS... club AND PUB INTERIORS / NIGHTLIFE ETC ...now people would love to see that

Grandson Manning

My late grandad was in the Woodburn Road Methodists gang. They worked hard and played hard. He remembered someone chucking a grate cover through a pub window and killing a man sitting inside. I don't think todays methodists would approve somehow. In later years he was still in a gang, the AEUW union at Firth Brown Tools, and all his working life he fought for shorter hours, more holidays, better working conditions, a decent weeks pay etc and just before he died he sat back helpless as the wicked Tory Party gang destroyed it all. Legalised Gang wars!

Hi, My great grand father was William Francis Plommer (murdered during the sheffield gang wars) My grandfather Thomas Plommer was a witness to it, he was just a child then. I live in Canada and am planning a visit back to Scotland(where I was born) next year and want to visit Sheffield. I also have the book by Bean...It is very detailed and gives a lot of info. on that time period.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by halevan
[B]
I believe the Government brought in a Scottish inspector (Shillito ) to deal with the situation and he put Policemen on the beat in pairs and raided the homes of known offenders until the gang's were broken.

You are quite right about Shillito. He was actually the person who sorted out the notorious and criminally violent 'razor gangs' of Glasgow in 1920/30's (featured in the famous Glasgow book by Alexander McArthur). Apparently he was brought down to Sheffield as a sort of trouble-shooter.

He may have been successful in Sheffield, but the razor gangs returned to Glasgow in the 50's/60's and even these days gang violence is all too common in Glasgow. Just goes to show that it never goes away completely, despite social changes.

My barber asked me to post this as he is a distant relative.

Does anyone know anything about George Butler from the Sheffield Gangs. Apparently he had to flee to London from Sheffield as several "head honchos" were seeking an urgent audience with him! This is all the info I have at the moment.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Martin.

My Gran used to live on King James Street in the old back to back houses- it's now the Langsett Road estate (near the Burgoyne Arms). She lived there for at least 30 years. She used to tell me that "old man mooney" took me out in my pram all the time.
Apparently the mooney family had some connection in the area or lived there for some time. She used to talk about the gang wars a lot and about the police chasing the gangs through the houses.

My Grandfather and grandmother owned, or ran The Ball Inn, Ball St./Green Lane, Sheffield during this period, and I understand that members of gangs frequented the establishment. Since the Mooneys lived just a short distance away in the West Bar area, I suspect that they and their friends were the visitors. I am told that my Grandfather and these gang members drank away the profits and thus the downfall. I have a photograph of my Grandparents outside the Ball Inn. on which his name can be clearly seen over the doorway. I also have a photograph of their son inside the pub. There are also unsubstantiated tales of tunnels from the Ball Inn to Manor Lodge,or castle.

I was once introduced to an old timer who fought as a bare knuckle fighter for Sam Garvin. He told me that Garvin was a bookmaker and used to arrange the fights in pub yards. He paid him to fight and then took the bets on the outcome of the contest.

It appears that sometimes the fighters were allowed to bind their knuckles in straw. The area around the old man's face was full of scar tissue which was caused by pieces of straw that embedded themselves in his face. After each round these pieces were pulled out by the seconds.

Someone mentions Mr Bean's book about the gangs but if you read the book you must accept that his information came from the court records and the newspapers of the time. These reports did away with a lot of the legends that existed about the gangs but are not always the full story. The men in the gangs were real people and got up to all sorts of villainy but it is not to say they were not family men and good in lots of ways. For years some of the stories were suppressed because of the support these men received from their families and friends.

I have more info but it will have to wait for another time.

I spoke to my Grandfather about this today, he owned a chip shop on langsett rd over 50 yrs ago, and told me that George Mooney used to come in every night when he lived on King James street.

He also told me that my great grandfather owned a shop on the corner of edward street and scotland street in the 20's that doubled up as a bookies for certain gangs and people including Mooney and his friends.

http://www.art-show.co.uk/joe-scarborough/gang-wars.html

http://www.swineherd.free-online.co.uk/camra/pubofmonth/previous/june99pom.htm

http://www.hedgepig.freeserve.co.uk/museum.htm

http://www.sheffieldpubs.fsnet.co.uk/Business/pubs/albertsuth.htm

Hope these help

Re Manning

Did Gus and Elsie once live near The Bath pub off Glossop Rd?

If so I have a couple of photographs of them.

Maybe 'Grandson Manning' may like a copy.

re-leo butler

Take alook at the articles placed in this ehistory section under the subject of lost pubs you maybe interested about what is written about the Plommer murder.

Two items I was told about was the demands of gang members for free fish suppers and if they were not forthcoming they threw a shovel of hot coals into the chip pan so nobody got any.

Another man I worked with as a lad in the steelworks was beaten black and blue in his house entry only to find out later it was a case of mistaken identity.

More later

Hi, my great grandad, george arthour whywell or ganner (cos he's GANNER do this and he's GANNER do that!) was a member of both gangs!(not at same time) he was a very dangerous and had been shot and stapped more than a few times, he killed the man on princess street! i'm realy sorrry but i dont now much about him as my family dont know i know! (read book in school!!!!) i am working on getting info, as soon as i get some more u'll b the first 2 know.
Dolly xx

p.s i got book- god he was a ****!!!!

sorry!! [****] !

As weird as it sounds, to someone like me who is interested in Sheffield history its great to find people connected with the families who are synominous with the history of this fantastic city! such as Dolly and Fran.

In the 60's there was a revival of tossing rings where big stakes were played for.

One ring was held regularly in a disused cinema on the outskirts.

Many of the old un's used to turn up to get their own back on former winners from the old gang days.

Another spot they used was near the Beeley Wood forge in Beeley Woods.

I remember one of them going there on a bus to the Middlewood Tavern and across the bridge to the Tossing Ring only to drive back in somebody's car that he'd won.

He had to ask the loser for instructions on the way back through the wood.

Hi Pop T
Yes please , many Manning grandsons would like to see any photo's from those days... Can you email them? Check your mailbox I emailed you a whoile back about this. Interesting info about the bare knuckle fights - as Charlie was very good at that and maybe what the gang was wanting him to do for them

Cheers

Mick
Charlie Manning Grandson number 3

Hi

I have left you a note under Charlie Manning.

I have not received any Emails and I must make sure that the photographs I have are Charlie Manning before I send them out.

Please see note on other board

I believe that a member of one of the sheffield gangs went to join the Al Capone mob in Chicago.

Maybe someone has more details?

Originally posted by Leo Butler
I'm a writer currently working on a play for the Crucible Theatre, based loosely on the Sheffield Gang Wars.

My play deals with the Fowler Brothers, who were part of Sam Garvin's Park Brigade mob, and sentenced to death for the murder of ex-serviceman William Francis Plommer on Princess Street. The murder took place on the night following Sheff Utd's victory over Cardiff in the 1925 FA Cup final.

Whether the Fowlers were guilty, or just scapegoats, is still debateable.

Does anyone have any - or knows of any stories about that time -not just the Gang Wars, but ordinary life in the slums back then?

My great grandfather was Lawrence Fowler and I was just interested to know if the play ever took place? Is there a chance of getting hold of a copy?

Originally posted by Lickszz
Does anyone have any information about the Sheffield Gang Wars of the 1920's?

I know there is some books that can be bought but was wanted some basic information.

The Garvin Gang was known to operate outside Sheffield especially at race tracks where they supplied 'protection'!! The Garvins were bitter enemies of the Italian Gang from Saffron Hill area of London run by Anglo Italian Darby Sabini. As for one of the Sheffielders joining Capone... perhaps. Certainly one of the Sabini's went to New York where a cousin was a captain in the Lucchese Family. Leeds born Owen Madden, better known as Owney Killer Madden and founder of the Cotton Club in NYC never lost his Yorkshire accent and in old age was often heard to greet people with 'Na then lad'. Old Man Mooney was often brought to the Rendezvous all nighter on London Road by his son circa 1960. Does anyone remember that? It was run by Boris Tworek a Pole. I was 'Andy with the London accent' in those days.

My great uncle on my mothers side was Gil Marsh who was sent to prison for one month for assaulting John Wheywell on christmas day 1924 I think. He was one of nine brothers and sisters of which my mothers garandma was one (his sister). They lived in a back to back house in Hoyle Street, West Bar. He was a member of the Park Brigade (not the Garvin gang as some have stated) and he was also one of the five who stormed George Mooney's home.
My grandad (on my dads side) also went drinking with the mooney gang in Darnall though he never got involved- lucky for him!

I'm currently reading JP Bean's book on the Gang Wars. Fascinating stuff!

I remember the Rendezvous well (see my log in name and you'll know why).

Boris was as bent as a nine bob note. He once got arrested for claiming to be a policeman. His defence was ' I did not say I was a policeman, I said I was a polishman' He once drove over a roundabout at the bottom of Granville Rd and just about demolished a pub on the other side.

does anybody no anything about the gang wars in sheffield not what the book says,the true facts

Why should you doubt the book?

The book is a very well researched piece of work.

the people that were there not writers veiw istill no of 1 family that are still living but just wanted the true facts

:) ask the family you know then :thumbsup:

Threads merged.

Domt know if its alreay been posted, but the policeman Shillito I think he was called wrote a book, I think it was called Cloak Without Dagger. Was about the Sheffield and Glasgow gang wars. I've also got a paperback somewhere kicking about, i'll have a look for it. :)

Where we Lived in Sheffield,Upper Hanover St,one of Sir Percy Sillitoes"Hard Men"PC Walter Loxley,then retired,lived just a few doors away from our house,and even though he was getting on in years he was a big burly man,and when he walked down the street it all went quiet!,and I went to school with his youngest Son Kenneth,and he had an older Son Walter.
Just another sideline to the tossing rings,when I was young"Piking"was a term for keeping a look out or spying on what was going on,derived from the "Pikers"who were the look-outs around the tossing area watching for the police.

If you need any info on the mooneys, my great grand father was geoge mooney and my grandad that is still alive is jimmy mooney he knows very thing that went on.




Originally posted by Lickszz
Does anyone have any information about the Sheffield Gang Wars of the 1920's?

I know there is some books that can be bought but was wanted some basic information.

broomheadle
Hope my memory ' s in working order but I'm sure I saw your Great-grandad , George , around ,1960--1961 [?] in Nell's Bar on Cambridge Street. A mate of mine's grandad had known George for years , so this mate suggested we go to Nell's bar to meet the legendary George Mooney. We were both about 17 at the time. I was a bit nervous but we went in and had a brief conversation with "george". I feel sure it was him. He was a very nice man--finding time to talk to us too !!
Later , I got to know your Grandad but only as an aquaintance rather than a friend and , again I ahave always found him a very sociable, friendly , humourous bloke and everyone I know , who knows him says the same. I think the last time I saw him was years ago at Heathrow. I was coming in from Kuwait {I think } and he was waiting for a mate of his to come back from the beer festival in Munich.
At one time your G.-G. grandad went to the beer festival regularly.
I also got to know Brian a little from when he had the Chez Brion on Glossop Road , another gentleman . Also , later ,I think ,Brian's wife had a wool shop on Sharrowvale Road and I know my [old] mother used to really respect Brian's wife . Nice Family

p.s. Sorry--got a bit mixed up there. It was Jimmy , of course , who used to go to Munich regularly.
The Chez Brion was a coffee bar and sold meals too as far as I remember. It had one of those wall juke boxes and I heard my first Piaf song on that [Milord] and became a life--long fan. I don't know how long Chez Brion was opened but a few years at least, I'd guess.

liskssz

There are some books on sheffield criminals in the main library in town, the one I read covered the moonies and the stuff they got upto also there down fall, plus there is chapters on Charlie Peace who was a carreeer criminal /murderer, very good reading. :thumbsup:

sheffexpat

Do you remember any of the people who went into Chez Brion?

My cousin, Peter Dixon, was a very close friend of Brian and Verena Mooney.

He took me in there once, but was only a little kid and dont remember much except that they served the food and drinks on glass crockery which i thought pretty cool.

Docmel
Sorry, don't remember your cousin . However ,sometimes, in our crowd we got to know people quite well but perhaps only knew them by nick-names. It's really odd this----but for years I could never imagine a lot of the people I knew then having a home life 'cos we only ever used to meet each other in pubs or caffs.So I may have known your cousin by sight.
Also , I can't say I knew Brian well---he was more just an aquaintance---but the few times I did speak to him or see him , he always struck me as being very civilised and decent ; I knew Jimmy a bit better.
I used to go in the Chez Brion , mainly with some mates from around the Hunters Bar area and then met up with a few from school. I wish we had had our own Chez Brion at Hunters Bar as at that time there was nothing like that down there :a bit different nowadays !
I know what you mean about the glass plates. I remember drinking tea out of a glass cup in the Rickshaw, just off West Street and thinkig how sophisticated we were---and those other new things---tea-bags !

sheffexpat

Thanks for the reply. I think you would have known my cousin had you met him, he was an actor - he had a spell at the Playhouse, and was, lets just be polite and say very camp!!

The Rickshaw - another great memory and the Berni Steak House on Church Street was the ultimate in luxury!!!

I totally agree what you said about Brian - he was a family friend - still get a Christmas card from him and all I have are fond memories of a very stylish great guy. A few years ago he took to writing poetry and had a couple published i understand.

Docmel
Nice to hear some more news about Brian.
I can't remember your cousin , though.We didn't go in the Chez Brion too much as none of us had cars and so it tended to be Hunters Bar and the bus to Town.[ or the tram pre-1960 !].
I think we all remember the cafes , coffee bars and [good] pubs from that time well , as there were so few of them.
The Mambo of course on Union Street , the New Orleans on London Road , near the Royal pub. The Rendezvous at Heeley and the Disc Jockey on London Road.
Also , I think Jimmy would have gone into the snooker hall on Cambridge St. in those days , above Gilder's Car Showroom.?
Did you go in any of these?

My grandad was a "bookies runner" for the Mooney gang.They used to hang around the pubs in Solley St. He used to go out into the back yards of the pubs to hand the bets over, and one night he got jumped and stabbed by a rival from the other gang.He survived the stabbing and carried on doing the bookies running.He also used to be a "lookout" when the gangs were playing toss the penny on Sky Edges old pig styes.Apparantly this was illegal at the time so it was important to have someone keeping an eye out for the boys in blue.
I'll ask my dad more when i see him next week,theres so much he remembers about those times.I know my grandad lived on Solley St. and was a bit of a rogue in his younger years.

was told today that my great-grandfather Thomas Ryan was a member of the Mooney gang has anyone heard of him???

as a young lad in the 40s I remember my eldest brother and his mates ( who shopped at Barny Goodmans a well known tailors on attercliffe common) going out dressed to kill (so to speak) wearing crombies with long white scarves.. everybody said "they looked like the Mooney Gang" did the gang have a dress code?

I have been reading with interest the thread on the Sheffield Gang Wars.
My grandmother lived on Princess Street in the 1920's with a family by the name of Phillipson, George and Eliza Ann. Although this couple were not her natural parents she was brought up by them after the death of her father Tom Hinchliffe.

She used to talk about the Gang Wars and in particular about Charles Peace and him pushing her round on his barrow?
I am trying to put some creadance to this story and so wondered if anyone could tell me more about Charles Peace or if they knew of a family named Phillipson who lived on Princess Street.

Thanks in advance for any help given.

I have just searched for the name Charles Peace on here and come up with some interesting information .... wish I'd done that first as then I would have know that my gran could not have been pushed round on a barrow by him ... she wasn't even born when he died!
However, she was adament about the story so I am now wondering if it could be one of her rellies that got pushed round on his barrow???

Would still love any information on the Phillipson family though if anyone knows anything!
Thanks

Hi MrSheps,

This is the SHEFFIELD GANG WARS THREAD that was way down the list in 'Sheffield History and Expats' - covers loadsa of stuff.........

G

If there's anyone out there with information about the Sheffield Gang Wars, whether it be fact or rumour, i'd be grateful if they would reply to this message. I have contacted and spoke to a lot of people connected to the Sheffield Gang Wars and have been researching this topic for nearly a year. I'm still currently seeking more information.

Cheers
tommyf

there are a few threads regarding sheffield gang wars on here if you do a search it will locate them for you

Cheers mate, have checked and read through them all and they're very interesting. I'm really trying to contact people who'll be willing to be interviewed about their stories etc. So if their is anyone out there... shout up.

tommyf

:help:

Mod: Threads merged.

Sally D - who was he?

Fran - do you know any family stories. I have just read about the murder of Plommer and he seems to have been brave and a hard man though foolish to face about 6 armed men. It is thought he died from a bayonet thrust or two in the stomach. His internal organs were protruding.
It seems hard the way both Fowlers were hung -one the day after the other -but the gangsters had over stepped themselves and did not take the courtcase seriously to begin with. It did as much to break the gangs as the police who were legalised yobboes.

Broomhandle can Iyou put me in touch with him?

davidhamilton@fsmail.net

Hello,
I have many family stories but in regards to my great-grand father "William Francis Plommer", my Grand father "Tommy Plommer" never spoke about the murder. He was a young boy at the time but he witnessed the beating/murder from the doorway while the gang went at his father. From what I know, my great grand father put up a great fight, he was some sort of boxer and was very fit. You talk about him being brave addressing all those men but what were his choices. They came to his house, he had to defend them for his families sake. At least one of the men did have a metal hand weapon and I believe that is what caused the most damage, he was taken to hospital but was D.O.A. This murder was what lead to the demise of the underground betting rings. My grand father had to testify at the trial and afterwards he was taken in by one of the police officers (living with) from what I have been told this police officer beat him and as a result my grand father hated any one to do with the "law'. Then his family moved to Glasgow, Scotland. Needless to say he got himself into trouble through his teens and as a young adult. The "Plommers" were very well known in Glasgow. My grand father ended up marrying a beautiful lady "Mary King" and they had 4 sons ( Tommy, Alex, Charlie and Maurice-my dad). In the early 70's Glasgow was a rough city and the whole entire family (wives included) moved to London, Ontario Canada. My Grand father was known to hold his feelings in check but every Sunday as a child I would visit my Granny and Granda after mass (Catholic) and as I would leave I would go give him a kiss on the cheeck and when I would hug him he would always giggle. Under neath it all he had a heart of gold. He died in the 80's surrounded by his son's.

Hi Fran,

Thats moving stuff. If you've got any other primary stories like that then drop me an email. I currently researching the whole saga.

tomfields1010@hotmail.com

I'd be grateful to hear from you.

tommyf

Hi. I'm currently doing research for a book that I want to write on this subject, but I want to take it from a different angle than the Plommer Murder.
I would appreciate it if anyone had any information/photos/maps from the era so that I can get to know the area of the time.
I'm a younger Sheffielder, and I have no recollection or knowledge of the Park district of Sheffield or many of the areas mentioned in the JP Bean book.

Originally posted by Fran
Hi, My great grand father was William Francis Plommer (murdered during the sheffield gang wars) My grandfather Thomas Plommer was a witness to it, he was just a child then. I live in Canada and am planning a visit back to Scotland(where I was born) next year and want to visit Sheffield. I also have the book by Bean...It is very detailed and gives a lot of info. on that time period.

Fran your great grand father William Francis Plommer, was a very brave man. He was, as you probley know, a first world war vetern. He stood up to the gangs and was attacked by SIX of the little sh*ts. I beleive two brother paid for their part in the cowardly attack with their lives. They were hanged.

Hi,
Yes, It was the first time in history (britain's atleast) that two brothers were found guilty of the same murder. I am pretty sure a couple thousand people showed up for his funeral. I have some pictures of him, one of him in his army uniform.

my nan she was was born in west bar sheffield unfortunately she has passed away and for the last few years didnt remember alot but when showed old photos she started remeniscing about her father?and uncle being bad lads in the mooney gang.cant seem to find out anything any body out there could help to trace.apparently one of her family members married into the mooner gang.she was born out of wedlock and her nan brought her up.she was called ward and ran the black market during the war.my nans maiden name was price born 13/11/12

Originally posted by Fran
Hi,
Yes, It was the first time in history (britain's atleast) that two brothers were found guilty of the same murder. I am pretty sure a couple thousand people showed up for his funeral. I have some pictures of him, one of him in his army uniform.

I'd love to see those pictures Fran. Perhaps you could use something like Photobucket where you could put a link to the pictures?

Steve

i have received a mail from stevie 1957 .i hope it is a reply to my very vague questions regarding my nan and the mooney gang.my nan was called evelyn maiden name price.born out of wedlock to minnie who was a money lender on west bar estate in 1920's.we think my great gran minnie's brother was a member of mooney gang and my nans father who we presume married minnie eventually.any help would be appreciated.:)

Originally posted by Lickszz
Yes, I have seen that book it's £7.99 and I am thinking of purchasing. I just wanted a bit of background knowledge. it's a really good read. I read it a few years ago. Its after the 1st world war and it is a real eye opener as to how unruly things were for a while. The Mooney gang were based around west bar, Scotland st where the Police station stands ! the Garvins were Park hill I think. Get the book, you won't be disappointed

I'm a writer currently working on a play for the Crucible Theatre, based loosely on the Sheffield Gang Wars.

My play deals with the Fowler Brothers, who were part of Sam Garvin's Park Brigade mob, and sentenced to death for the murder of ex-serviceman William Francis Plommer on Princess Street. The murder took place on the night following Sheff Utd's victory over Cardiff in the 1925 FA Cup final.

Whether the Fowlers were guilty, or just scapegoats, is still debateable.

Does anyone have any - or knows of any stories about that time -not just the Gang Wars, but ordinary life in the slums back then?


hi
my grandad was involved in the princess street murder his name was george wills and he served 10 years for manslaughter for this crime.

yeah .... this is very interesting because my late grandfather ...

a Mr Charlie Muss Manning Late of tipton st Brightside ( son Des Manning .... Sheff soccer schoolboys 1943 )

spoke of several 1920s 30s ? 'encounters' with these bad lads ...apparantly Charlie being rather 'handy' the gang were keen to recruit his skills ( bare knuckle fairground fighting etc in his time off from the pit or Steel Peach tozer or similar works

Tho they discovered ... He was havin none of it.

Any info on charlie Manning ( wife elsie) or his son Des Manning would be most welcome for me to share further tales ... I 'll have a look at the book but any stories from the elder statesmen out there or their well informed sons & grandsons / daughters ..HAS ANY ONE GOT ACCESS TO ANY PHOTOS OF THIS ERA (20s to 40s) BARS... club AND PUB INTERIORS / NIGHTLIFE ETC ...now people would love to see that

Grandson Manning HI MY Father had a taxi in the days of the gangs , he used to tell of the time Sam Garvin and and three ohers once got in his cab and said, Doncaster racecourse, he said take the next cab i am booked, they said you are now Doncaster unless you want some of this , a big fist was pushed under his nose, so off he went they would not let him out of sight and bought him drinks,back in Sheffield late at night when he asked for his fare they just laughed and said you drank it all.Arthur.

if you take a trip in to rotherham and go to a shop called brookes & brookes which is the tobbaconist at the top of the high street, go and see the chap who owns it because his grandad was none other than shilitoe the head copper who sorted out the gang wars in sheffield and the likes of the moonies and the garvins. i am sure he will tell you what you need to know but dont go on a wednesday as the shop is shut.

the people that were there not writers veiw istill no of 1 family that are still living but just wanted the true facts

If you'd gone into Mr Kites a few years ago you could have asked Brian Mooney, in the morning though as he was always ****** in the afternoon, or his older brother, whose name I forget, or his mum Dolly, who's dead now. His older brother was the one to watch..

Interesting then.........to read about the Sheffield gang wars as such.Mainly dominated by razor carrying bully boys,the likes of which we read about all too often in the papers once again.Knife weilding low life that really need to be sorted.Over paid Law Sharks will not sort the matter,they are worse than the low life. In the days of the Sheffield mobs,they realised that the only thing that worked,was the mobs own medicine...Violence ! break the spirit of the hardened criminal.
Only then can you try to rebuild the person back into a human being.
Todays Daft methods are in the hands of overpaid people with little or no understanding of Real human nature! it certainly is not gained from 3 years at some university!

Hi:)

Im new to this my names Rosie. I came across tis forum whilst looking for info on my great great uncle who was Sam Garvin.Until recently when my mum(who is is sams great niece) told me and i read the book by bean i hadnt realised what reputation he had:o :hihi: . didnt think we were that bad;) my mums sheffield born and bred and my nan lives in stocksbridge now. im into genealogy and that along with Sam's history fascinates me. i have hard my nan talk about uncle sam many a time so knew he had a right reputaation, and a bad one at that but didnt realise how bad! anyone who knew my great great uncle sam, or have relations who did it would be great to hear from you.

Rosie

Hi can anyone help? My grandad was in the silk muffler gang, I have heard of a silk scarf gang is it the same? And are they anything to do with Mooney and the others. Grandad lived on Solly St where I believe they drank.

My mum also mentioned a guy called Ripon who her mother talked about when they lived on the Wybourne. He lived on the crescent mum says and disappeaerd when Shillito came looking for him!

I am writing a book/family geneology of my family and any info would help.

many thanks
reddeb x

[QUOTE]Originally posted by halevan
[B]
I believe the Government brought in a Scottish inspector (Shillito ) to deal with the situation and he put Policemen on the beat in pairs and raided the homes of known offenders until the gang's were broken.

You are quite right about Shillito. He was actually the person who sorted out the notorious and criminally violent 'razor gangs' of Glasgow in 1920/30's (featured in the famous Glasgow book by Alexander McArthur). Apparently he was brought down to Sheffield as a sort of trouble-shooter.

He may have been successful in Sheffield, but the razor gangs returned to Glasgow in the 50's/60's and even these days gang violence is all too common in Glasgow. Just goes to show that it never goes away completely, despite social changes.
It was the other way round from Sheffield to Glasgow

Interesting then.........to read about the Sheffield gang wars as such.Mainly dominated by razor carrying bully boys,the likes of which we read about all too often in the papers once again.Knife weilding low life that really need to be sorted.Over paid Law Sharks will not sort the matter,they are worse than the low life. In the days of the Sheffield mobs,they realised that the only thing that worked,was the mobs own medicine...Violence ! break the spirit of the hardened criminal.
Only then can you try to rebuild the person back into a human being.
Todays Daft methods are in the hands of overpaid people with little or no understanding of Real human nature! it certainly is not gained from 3 years at some university!
Quite true , the schoolbully the teenage yob ,the petty criminal ,knife gangs, all this rabble have no conscience, no shame, no respect for the law, only the fear of physical pain makes it's mark. in the days of corporal punishment, very few went back for a second dose, as you say these dogooders will come to realise this at some point in their lives.

Does anyone have any information about the Sheffield Gang Wars of the 1920's?

I know there is some books that can be bought but was wanted some basic information.
My father lived nearby to the murder.He was very young but his older brother talked about it shortly before he died when in his 80,s.They still wouldnt talk about it even after all that time.The story I was finally told was that their father told them that trouble was brewing and they were not to go out.The murder took place and the murderer (not the brothers) caught a tram to the Wicker Arches.He then attacked a stranger in front of a policeman and was then arrested.This was his alibi.He was taken to a cell.A furnaceman in a steel works challenged a stranger and was told to look away if he knew what was good for him.He did and the murder knife was thrown into the furnace and melted.I was finally told the murderers name but I cant remember it.I wrote it down somewhere.In those days a murder was very unusual unlike now.I,ve got the book somewhere but its a long time since I read it so I dont remember what it said.My uncle and father were very honest men so I believe their version.

my father lived on princess street when he was a lad in the twenties i can remember he told there had once been a murder there.i thought he was joking obviously not.he used told me the street was a no go area at night.he said the gangs would fight with the cellar covers for protection he told about how a policeman called shillitto was brouhgt in to rid the streets of the gangs.

my father lived on princess street when he was a lad in the twenties i can remember he told there had once been a murder there.i thought he was joking obviously not.he used told me the street was a no go area at night.he said the gangs would fight with the cellar covers for protection he told about how a policeman called shillitto was brouhgt in to rid the streets of the gangs.
My father and uncle were born on the next street.Apparently all the police were big and good fighters.If they wanted somebody ,they would surround the pub that the suspect was in.Some of the police would go in and tell the suspect to leave with them.If he didnt then they dragged him out and flattened anybody trying to stop them.Can you imagine that now?The place would be covered by lawyers and do gooders in no time at all and the police would be arrested!!! Has anybody seen an honest lawyer? I have.Its a pub in Scunthorpe.

The night of that murder my grandfather got off the tram at the wicker arches and a couple of men (not sure if they were on the tram) came over to him and told him that if anybody asked where they had been to tell them that they had been with him all night. I am unsure if my grandfather knew the men, as the story was told to me by my mother, but the next day they heard about the murder.

My grandmother lived as a young girl at the area, which is now the park hill flats, but I believe back then was an area of houses. She recollected to me that one morning she went to a neighbours house and saw a salesman running out from the entrance way. He ran past her and told her not to go down there. When she went to the back door the woman was dead on the floor she told me that someone else was blamed for the murder and that nobody would listen to her story of seeing the man run away. This must have been around 1915? Does anybody know of information on crimes from the past in the Sheffield area?

The Mooney family did own Mr Kites wine bar on Devonshire St.? I believe it changed about 10 years ago. But the family ran the bar it was quite an okay place as I remember they used to have live music weekly.

Does anyone know about a william Furniss in the Park bargade gang? I have heard people mention him when taking about the sheffield gang wars. But wanted to know more about him

just found this link, My Gran (now departed)used to talk about the Stewarts & Chinns, fighting. She lived near Salmon Pastures school (I think that is what it's called). Does anyone else know about them.

Hello,
I have just read `sheffield Gang wars` by JPbean after my dad mentionned that some of his relatives featured. William Furness- part of the park brigade and albert foster - part of the moony gang. I dont know much more than what the book tells me...but am very intrigued and would love to know more about this era. Does anyone know any more about william Furness? or Albert Foster?

Hello,
I have just read `sheffield Gang wars` by JPbean after my dad mentionned that some of his relatives featured. William Furness- part of the park brigade and albert foster - part of the moony gang. I dont know much more than what the book tells me...but am very intrigued and would love to know more about this era. Does anyone know any more about william Furness? or Albert Foster?

Hi,
I think I may know you...small world! All i know is what you read in the book too and what relatives tell you of cause. I would like to know more though.

Looking for information on an Amos Stewart (Stuart) who was sentenced to 10 years for manslaughter around the time two brothers were hanged for the murder of a chap called Plommer. I believe he may have been mixed up with the gangs in the Sheffield area arounds the 1920's

just found this link, My Gran (now departed)used to talk about the Stewarts & Chinns, fighting. She lived near Salmon Pastures school (I think that is what it's called). Does anyone else know about them.
Do you know anything about an Amos Stewart (Stuart)

Do you know anything about an Amos Stewart (Stuart)
Next time I phone my mum I will ask her if she can recall hi, as being one of the Stewarts she knew of.

my father lived on princess street when he was a lad in the twenties i can remember he told there had once been a murder there.i thought he was joking obviously not.he used told me the street was a no go area at night.he said the gangs would fight with the cellar covers for protection he told about how a policeman called shillitto was brouhgt in to rid the streets of the gangs.
My dad lived on Princess st. too in the 20s/30s and told the same stories- apparently if someone 'messed' with the cellar grate gang, your window would be shattered by same.

my paternal grandfather was a foreman in a steelworks & gave some gang members a job.1 day he mentioned his gold pocket watch had been stolen to 1 of the said chaps & by lunchtime it was back in his pocket.

Looking for information on an Amos Stewart (Stuart) who was sentenced to 10 years for manslaughter around the time two brothers were hanged for the murder of a chap called Plommer. I believe he may have been mixed up with the gangs in the Sheffield area arounds the 1920's

hi,all i no atm is my granny was elizabeth stuart/stewart and she was amos,s sister my mother is eileen malone.please let me no any information you have.
thanx

Do you know anything about an Amos Stewart (Stuart)
Hi I asked my mum, And all she knows is that his mother had a fruit shop on the corner of Harriet St. & Birch Rd. (it fronted onto Birch rd.) near a Steel works called Jonas & Colvers. unfortunately the streets are no longer there. I know the house my mums family lived in was destroyed by an incendery bomb. She said she was a bit to young at the time to know a lot. Sorry.

My dad lived on Princess st. too in the 20s/30s and told the same stories- apparently if someone 'messed' with the cellar grate gang, your window would be shattered by same.
My mum lived on Harriet street and tells the same story.

Hi I asked my mum, And all she knows is that his mother had a fruit shop on the corner of Harriet St. & Birch Rd. (it fronted onto Birch rd.) near a Steel works called Jonas & Colvers. unfortunately the streets are no longer there. I know the house my mums family lived in was destroyed by an incendery bomb. She said she was a bit to young at the time to know a lot. Sorry.
Many thanks for that bit of informtation anywy, it helps.

hi,all i no atm is my granny was elizabeth stuart/stewart and she was amos,s sister my mother is eileen malone.please let me no any information you have.
thanx
Many thanks for that information. I am doing the Stuart Family Tree at the moment, and Amos came up, as soon as I have more information, I will gladly let you know, Please bear with me if I do not reply for a while, as research does take a while.

Many thanks for that information. I am doing the Stuart Family Tree at the moment, and Amos came up, as soon as I have more information, I will gladly let you know, Please bear with me if I do not reply for a while, as research does take a while.

Hi All

I am also doing the Stuart family history and am related to Amos. I'vve recently obtained Amos's birth cert and would be keen to share information about Amos or the Stuart family

Hi All

I am also doing the Stuart family history and am related to Amos. I'vve recently obtained Amos's birth cert and would be keen to share information about Amos or the Stuart family
I know who you are. We are already sharing information !!

hi,all i no atm is my granny was elizabeth stuart/stewart and she was amos,s sister my mother is eileen malone.please let me no any information you have.
thanx
Was your Grandmother born in Leeds or Sheffield

my granny born around 1903 "was wed to david tailor not sure tho"before she got with my grandad malcolm malone.
my mums oldest brother was douglas who died very young in the war i think.

Great book that is, ive not read all the posts, so i maybe repeating.

But its worth looking at. I'm most amazed by the fact that 99.9% of the crimes in the book, you just couldnt get away with now.

ash

my granny born around 1902 was wed to david tailor before she got with my grandad malone.
my mums oldest brother was douglas who died very young.
Does your mother Eileen have a sister ?
There was and Elizabeth Stuart who married someone called Nuttall and went onto marry someone else, could be Taylor?

Hi Kipper, did you get my PM? This is my great grandmother and I'm trying to find out more about her.
Thanks :)

Hi Kipper, did you get my PM? This is my great grandmother and I'm trying to find out more about her.
Thanks :)
Yes, I have sent you an email, did you get it?

Thanks Kipper, I just checked my email and will reply to you that way :)

Does your mother Eileen have a sister ?
There was and Elizabeth Stuart who married someone called Nuttall and went onto marry someone else, could be Taylor?
hi kipper ,
my mother has a few sisters ,dorris,cathleen,mona,pat,pam,ivy,elizabeth,doreen ,mary.and as far as i no my gran elizabeth and my grandad never got wed.

i have now got hold of births register document for october,november,december 1903,and my gran elizabeth stuart born in sheffield 1903 is on it.its not spot on but its abt.

I'm a writer currently working on a play for the Crucible Theatre, based loosely on the Sheffield Gang Wars.

My play deals with the Fowler Brothers, who were part of Sam Garvin's Park Brigade mob, and sentenced to death for the murder of ex-serviceman William Francis Plommer on Princess Street. The murder took place on the night following Sheff Utd's victory over Cardiff in the 1925 FA Cup final.

Whether the Fowlers were guilty, or just scapegoats, is still debateable.

Does anyone have any - or knows of any stories about that time -not just the Gang Wars, but ordinary life in the slums back then?
hi my sister and have spent a few years on our family tree and we find we are related to the fowler brother our grandparents and great grand parents lived intheprincess st area of the the fowler brother most of the family that would remember are long gone but the one we have spoke too says they did catch a tram to the wicker in order to cover there alibi but i have also read the books on the subject but what we have find out is there was a close brotherly tie between the two of them but whether they were guilty i have no idea as the one family member left that does remember refuses to talk about them he says they were a bad lot so i assume he does think them guilty

Hi all.
I'm a new user to this forum so if anyone has mentioned this earlier in the thread, please accept my apologies.

The Flying Squad was indeed very effective in quashing the gang troubles in Sheffield, but unfortunately it wasn't set up by Percy Sillitoe. The previous chief constable, Lt. Col. John Hall-Dalwood, formed the flying squad one year to the day before Sillitoe took office. Sillitoe certainly did support and encourage the activities of the squad but they were there and working when he took up his post.

Hall-Dalwood never received the credit for his activities in combating the Gang troubles, possibly because he was never interested in the kind of publicity that Sillitoe was. In the interests of historical accuracy it is important to note these facts.

my grandfather was peter winsey, i think he was a member of the park brigade gang but i may be wrong. He lived at lodgings in love lane and in scotland street. Can anyone give me anymore info on peter winsey

Peter Winsey b. 1886 Sheffield

Parents : Peter Winsey b.1862 Ashton, Lancs d.1900 Sheffield - Plasterer by trade married Maria Barett (Barrett) 1885 Sheffield. Maria b.1864 Derby

Children of Peter and Maria

Margaret b.1888 Sheffield
Mary Ann b.1891 Sheffield
Mary Edith b.1885 Sheffield

Maria whilst a widow ran a grocery shop at 60 Bridge Street, Sheffield

Peter b.1862 parents were from Ireland - John Winsey b.1826 Ireland - Bricklayer by trade married Jane ? b.1829 Ireland other children to John and Jane :-

Patrick Winsey b.1849 Ireland

I cannot say whether your grandfather was part of the Park Brigade, he is not mentioned in the book and from the research I have done so far.

Regards Kip

wow this post has been going nearly 4 years !

my grandfather was peter winsey, i think he was a member of the park brigade gang but i may be wrong. He lived at lodgings in love lane and in scotland street. Can anyone give me anymore info on peter winsey
Please accept my apologies re my last post, must have my wires crossed with someone else I am researching connected to the Sheffield Gang Wars

Peter Winsey WAS connected to a Sheffield Gang. He is mentioned several times in the book written by J P Bean - The Sheffield Gang Wars.

If I can be of any more help, just ask.

Kip

I worked for Brian Mooney for 7 years, i know about the gang wars but you wouldnt beleive it of him he was a really nice quiet bloke !

My barber asked me to post this as he is a distant relative.

Does anyone know anything about George Butler from the Sheffield Gangs. Apparently he had to flee to London from Sheffield as several "head honchos" were seeking an urgent audience with him! This is all the info I have at the moment.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Martin.


The JP Bean book features that character quite heavily, but the whole Gang Wars thing seems to me to be blown out of proportion. In the twenties and thirties pretty much any commom thief, or bar room brawl was attributed to the gangs, when most of these men had nothing to do with gangs at all.
Of course there was quite a long running feud which went on between the Garvin gang and the Mooneys, but George Mooney was only around for the start of it, he had to flee when things got nasty, and then Sam Garvin recruited most of Mooney's hardmen.

For the real meaty gangs, though, you need to look at the Guttaperchers, who were around during the late 1800's early 1900's. They really made the Garvin and Mooney gangs look like small potatoes. I'm still looking for info on those gangs, but the reputation was pretty nasty

My grandfather who was born in 1889 used to tell me a story about one of the gangs. They waited outside a pub until closing time one night for someone they had seen wearing a diamond
ring.They got the ring and bloke lost his finger as well !
He also used to talk about certain Bob Garvin who like my grandfather was a very good angler. When Bob died at the end of the fifties, my gandfather got inherited his fishing tackle. I have still got one of the rods (home made ,11 ft 2 piece with two top parts )

just buy the book on sale at any decent book shops at a reasonable price tells you all about it

hi does anyone know of the goddards or the stanilands that i think lived on scotland street in the 1920 or could be the surrounding areas i have read the book and a frederick goddard is mentioned i am working on my family tree and the goddards and the stanilands are my family but i think there is a link to the fowler brothers but as of yet i can t make the link as

What a great film the gang wars would make!!!!!!!1

Sean Bean as George Mooney

Brian Blessed as Sam Garvin

further suggestions as to cast?

My Dad used to talk about the 'Silk Scarf " gangs in Sheffield, I guess they would be around the early 1900's.

He said different gang members wore different coloured scarves.

He said they used to carry their razors in their cap nebs.

All this was yonks ago, I wonder if anyone else has heard of these sheffield gangs.

Happy Days! Or were they?

I wonder what use in years to come, will local historians make of the information re the Gangs. All fascinating stuff !

I digress !

On page 113 of J P Bean's book, there is reference to a Thomas Windle cutting the throat of a Jack Fisher outside the Industry Inn.
There is a story in our family, that the resident publican at the Industry, Sarah Ann Hornsey ( nee Robinson ) my Mom's Aunt, went to Fisher and wrapped a towel from the bar around his neck to stop him from bleeding to death.
Apparently Aunt Sarah would allow the Garvin gang in without the Mooney's and likewise she wouild allow the Mooney gang in without the Garvin gang.
She knew if both gangs were in together, they would be fighting and destroying the pub.

What a great film the gang wars would make!!!!!!!1

Sean Bean as George Mooney

Brian Blessed as Sam Garvin

further suggestions as to cast?

Catherine Tate could play someones wife.

as a young lad in the 40s I remember my eldest brother and his mates ( who shopped at Barny Goodmans a well known tailors on attercliffe common) going out dressed to kill (so to speak) wearing crombies with long white scarves.. everybody said "they looked like the Mooney Gang" did the gang have a dress code?
Yes I believe there was a Red scarf gang & the white scarf gang around the Park district.I believe my uncles were members.

Fran your great grand father William Francis Plommer, was a very brave man. He was, as you probley know, a first world war vetern. He stood up to the gangs and was attacked by SIX of the little sh*ts. I beleive two brother paid for their part in the cowardly attack with their lives. They were hanged.
I think the attack took place on Princess St near Norfolk Bridge.

Hi,
The story has been passed down our family for three generations, I am somehow related to the Fowler Brothers via my great grandfather born in 1871.
The story we were told is identical to the actual events, yet we are not local, my Grandfather and his father only ever spoke about it on a couple of occasions. They said it was a Coppers Nark who got killed. It may not be true but is apparently how my great grandfather saw it.
The Princess St murder was terrible and Plommer was a very brave man. It appears to have been the turning point for law and order in Sheffield. Apparently the gangland had been around for years before and my Great grandfather used to speak of the Fowlers hiding Charlie Peace in a barbers shop. Obviously this was not the brothers of the 1920's but an earlier era. does anyone have any information of Fowler family involvement before this time, and any links to the Charlie Peace era. ( My Great Grandfather Robert was a Barber)

I wonder if anyone locally would have information that would help to identify how I am actually related to the Fowler brothers. It has long been known in our family (Fowler) that we are related to the two Sheffield brothers. Initially we believed that my Great Grandfather Robert Fowler was their brother but as he was born in 1871 it is more likely that he was their uncle.
He left Sheffield in 1913 with his Wife Ruth (maiden name Sandwell) and his children Robert born 1907 and Maude born around 1910. At some point he served in the Army.
Does anyone know the brothers family tree, their fathers linage would be of particular interest.

Peter Winsey WAS connected to a Sheffield Gang.

Peter Winsey was my great grand dad who had 6 daughters and 1 son but he liked to be called john by is friends so my nan recalled whos name is margret hodder {winsey} bless her who sadly past away this month,he was the mooneys right hand man,they used celler grates to smash people in,if they didnt pay there tossing ring money,
Peter Winsey died in my nans arms after one of is daughters was found died ,he went from pub to pub to find this person only to have a heart attack in my nans arms,may be i should right a book on the lifes of the mooney gang and there bloodlines. the gang wars book dosnt really tell you any thing about them only what they did....

Please accept my apologies re my last post, must have my wires crossed with someone else I am researching connected to the Sheffield Gang Wars

Peter Winsey WAS connected to a Sheffield Gang. He is mentioned several times in the book written by J P Bean - The Sheffield Gang Wars.

If I can be of any more help, just ask.

Kip
Peter Winsey WAS connected to a Sheffield Gang.

Peter Winsey was my great grand dad who had 6 daughters and 1 son but he liked to be called john by is friends so my nan recalled whos name is margret hodder {winsey} bless her who sadly past away this month,he was the mooneys right hand man,they used celler grates to smash people in,if they didnt pay there tossing ring money,
Peter Winsey died in my nans arms after one of is daughters was found died ,he went from pub to pub to find this person only to have a heart attack in my nans arms,may be i should right a book on the lifes of the mooney gang and there bloodlines. the gang wars book dosnt really tell you any thing about them only what they did....

Peter Winsey WAS connected to a Sheffield Gang.

Peter Winsey was my great grand dad who had 6 daughters and 1 son but he liked to be called john by is friends so my nan recalled whos name is margret hodder {winsey} bless her who sadly past away this month,he was the mooneys right hand man,they used celler grates to smash people in,if they didnt pay there tossing ring money,
Peter Winsey died in my nans arms after one of is daughters was found died ,he went from pub to pub to find this person only to have a heart attack in my nans arms,may be i should right a book on the lifes of the mooney gang and there bloodlines. the gang wars book dosnt really tell you any thing about them only what they did....

[QUOTE=Runningman;2095057]I wonder what use in years to come, will local historians make of the information re the Gangs. All fascinating stuff ! [QUOTE]

You never know, this thread might have already been mentioned in PhD theses, academic articles or books..........

hi does anyone know of the goddards or the stanilands that i think lived on scotland street in the 1920 or could be the surrounding areas i have read the book and a frederick goddard is mentioned i am working on my family tree and the goddards and the stanilands are my family but i think there is a link to the fowler brothers but as of yet i can t make the link as


Dont know if this is generated from the same family but i use to know a family of the latter you mentioned who mentioned Red Hill a lot and i think the father Earnest came from that area. (Scotland Street.)He probably would have been around in 1920s.
Just a long shot.

I've heard that a lot of the "gangs" of the 50's-60's worked out of the Roebuck tavern with the Landlady being very influencial in the plotting???
She was a very wealthy woman growing up very poor, i'm sure all her wealth wasn't made from the pub???

sam garvin literally got away with murder,he killed a soldier called jock plommer or plummer,on princess street,jumped on a bus at norfolk bridge,got off in the wicker and cracked a passing copper,getting arrested,thereby creating his alibi,lawrence & wilfred fowler were hanged for jocks death. there are many stories as to the murder weapon,ranging from a knife,to a kids scooter.
at one time,garvin & the mooneys were mates,but fell out over control of the tossing rings,at the time there were many gangs,with exotic names like the cellar grate gang,the mooneys,park hill mob,not many people stood up to them, however rumour has it that gus platts,a former european boxing champ,kicked the mooney gang out of his pub,one by one,the blue boar,i believe, at west bar.
the end was nigh for the gangs however,when percy sillitoe was recruited to clean up the streets,recruiting the biggest,hardest bastards he could find,becoming the first flying squad. the gangs were met with a zero tolerance approach,and met with the same treatment they had dished out,falling downstairs,walking into doors,if you get what i mean,once sillitoe had cleaned sheffield up,he went to do the same elsewhere,again with considerable success. george mooney went on to become a respected community member,becoming a justice of the peace i believe,some of his sons lived on the parson cross estate,frequenting the magnet,wordsworth tavern and southey club,until they died.
hope this was some use to you.

does anyone know of terence mooney,son of the said george mooney? the son he had with sylvia wragg in 1956 would like to know about him.

Hi Okismoki

Your summary of the Sheffield Gang wars was very interesting - thanks. I noticed however that you attribute the formation of the Flying Squad to Percy Sillitoe.

Sillitoe was quite a high ranking bobby who had previously worked with government depts. By the time he was recruited to Sheffield the influence of the gangs was on the decline, thanks as you point out, due to the activities of the Flying Squad that had been formed one year before Sillitoe took office. the man responsible for forming the Flying Squad, Lt. Col John Hall-Dalwood, was not popular with the authorities at that time and therefore is not credited with as much as he should have been.

Interesting topic though.

Regards

DD

Hi Okismoki

Your summary of the Sheffield Gang wars was very interesting - thanks. I noticed however that you attribute the formation of the Flying Squad to Percy Sillitoe.

Sillitoe was quite a high ranking bobby who had previously worked with government depts. By the time he was recruited to Sheffield the influence of the gangs was on the decline, thanks as you point out, due to the activities of the Flying Squad that had been formed one year before Sillitoe took office. the man responsible for forming the Flying Squad, Lt. Col John Hall-Dalwood, was not popular with the authorities at that time and therefore is not credited with as much as he should have been.

Interesting topic though.

Regards

DD
right,im not in a position to dispute it,as all i wrote yesterday was passed on to me by elderly people who i have cared for over the years,many who lived in the old park district,they were then moved onto the newly built parson cross estate,as the old park was demolished....there i go again...rambling on,thanks for your reply

Hi There
ive recently joined the forum and have been reading about Sheffield gang wars and thought this might be of some interest.
My Grandfather & his brothers were all involved with the gangs, especially my Grandads brother (Samson).
they all lived in two up two down housing on streets that they demolished after the war and then built Kelvin Flats on.
Samson ran for the mooneys a tossing ring racket where a large coin was placed in a centre of a ring or upturned cap , each person taking a turn in flipping a coin and , the idea was to land on it.
My dad as a lad was a look out for the old bill and once he gave a warning they would all run through my grandmas front room , upstairs into the loft running through thelofts of all the houses in street to escape the old bill.
Samson also ran with the wicker boys and during one of his escapades was caught and
brought before the courts, he received the birch (also known as the cat o nine tales)
and as a result received a scar that ran up the back of his neck and upto his head.
He also collected debts and other money from pubs and shops for the moonies and as a reward for his loyalties was given a corner shop I believe to be in Wood street and my Grand father ran a stick yard from the rear.
I have sat with my brothers for hours listening as a lad to my Grandad & Grandma telling us stories of the escapades.

the birch was a collection of birch saplings tied together,the cat was a whip with 9 "tails" hence the name...still,a punishment none the less...unlike today!

Thanks for reply I assumed the term birched was another name for being flogged and didnt realise it meant the actual equipment.
Also I remembered that after they had finished they rubbed salt directly in the wound
presumably to kill infection?
Im not sure which of the two would of been worse.........?

Thanks for reply I assumed the term birched was another name for being flogged and didnt realise it meant the actual equipment.
Also I remembered that after they had finished they rubbed salt directly in the wound
presumably to kill infection?
Im not sure which of the two would of been worse.........?
not sure about killing infection,but it would certainly have been more painfull for longer than it should have been.

Have moved to sheffield from Sydney Australia. I found the info on gangshere very interesting. We had the razor gangs in Sydney years ago. Very violent days indded. I guess no matter where you go there will always be trouble.

Very interesting stuff, it has intrested me that much i think im going to purchase the book by Bean!

hi
my grandad was involved in the princess street murder his name was george wills and he served 10 years for manslaughter for this crime.
I think George Wills used my aunt as his alibi for not being involved with the murder of William Plommer!

I've just been looking for information on my great grandad George Butler and it brought this thread up. Does anyone know of any other family connections he had, any other info etc. Cheers guys

When Percy Sillitoe left Sheffield, he went to Glasgow.

my grandad rolled with the moonys

does anyone know of terence mooney,son of the said george mooney? the son he had with sylvia wragg in 1956 would like to know about him.

I have links with Wragg's from Sheffield so was interested in this, However have searched all birth's of Mooney's for 1955/56/57 and cannot find any terence's born Sheffield or any with mothers maiden name Wragg.

I have links with Wragg's from Sheffield so was interested in this, However have searched all birth's of Mooney's for 1955/56/57 and cannot find any terence's born Sheffield or any with mothers maiden name Wragg.
he wasn,t christened mooney,mooney got sylvia pregnant,then took his hook,now sylvia has died,he wants to know a little about his "father", if you can call him that. he would have been christened wragg,but changed his name when he was adopted.things in the 50,s were a little different from today.
which wraggs did you know?? maybe we are related,my mother was a wragg before getting married.

I'm linked to Wragg's from the Grenoside area one married a Fleetwood and their son was my mothers foster father,he was also her uncle. if that makes sense?? have not been able to find any links with any modern day Wraggs yet but have only just started looking down that side of the family.

Heya, Im doing my undergraduate thesis on the Sheffield gangwars and would absolutely love to get in touch with anyone who is related to ANY of the gang members either by phone/email or over a bevvy!
Alternitively any advice would be very much appreciated!
sophie.bolsover@pmb.ox.ac.uk

thanks so much
sophs

I can remember a programme being shown on bbc about the gang wars, just wondered if any one knew of where i would be likely to get a copy of this ?, or if any one has and old copy of it?

Hope if this one ever comes off, then you'll remember to cast someone in the role of my Nan, who got bombed out of Duke St - nr. the Red Lion! Sam Garvin was arguing the toss with someone one night outside her house, and as the family were all trying to sleep, she threw open the bedroom window, and shouted; "Nah then thee! If tha dunt shift thissen, tha'll get t'contents o' this piddle-pot o'er thi eeard!" (May Boreham -nee Rowland - the original Woman of Substance!) Anyone remember her? If we ever set off to Duke St shops from City Rd Post Office, it would take us an hour and a half to reach the bottom "wi' gassin' " to everybody en-route!

hi
can anyone tell me where i can get a book on the sheffield gang wars. I have emailed the star shop on york street but they don't have them anymore. as i live away it must be mail order
thanks
irene::

Just looked on Amazon but its out of stock

Irene,

They have it on amazon
"Sheffield Gang Wars" by J.P. Bean

Hi
thanks for the two replies i got, i will keep an eye on Amazon in case they get them in again

Irene

Hi
thanks for the two replies i got, i will keep an eye on Amazon in case they get them in again

Irene

Try this.http://fr.bookbutler.com/do/bookCompare?searchFor=0950764507&amountIn=gbp&shipTo=gb&searchIn=uk&zip=

to lazyherbert
thanks for your reply, what a smashing website. i have now ordered the book
many thanks to all who replied

irene

On the 3rd of September 1925, Tom Pierrepoint carried out a double hanging at Armley and on the following day a further single execution. The first two prisoners were Alfred Bostock who had killed his mistress, Elizabeth Sherratt and 23 year old William Fowler, who was a Sheffield gangster who had taken part in the murder of an ex boxer called William Plommer in a street ambush. Fowler's brother and leader of their gang, Lawrence, was to die the following day for the same crime.
Alfred Bostock and Elizabeth Sherratt both worked for the Parkgate Ironworks in Rotherham and had fallen for each other virtually on sight. Albert was married but had a passionate affair with Elizabeth which went along very well until Elizabeth announced that she was pregnant, a setback that Alfred could simply not accept. On May 3rd, 1925, her body was found floating in the river at Rawmarsh - she had been battered to death. Bostock was the prime suspect and quickly arrested for the murder. He presented a weak alibi in his defence and although the evidence against him was circumstantial, it only took the jury 15 minutes to convict him. It is unclear why he was hanged alongside William Fowler and not alone. One surmises that the prison authorities thought there would be trouble between the Fowler brothers so had decided to hang them separately. Lawrence and William Fowler were leaders of a Sheffield gang that had been terrorising the city for some time and who considered themselves beyond the law. One of the gang's members, Trimmer Welsh, had got into a fight with William Plommer over his treatment of the barmaid in the pub where they were both drinking, and Plommer gave the man a good hiding. Plommer was ambushed by another two members of the gang, including young Wilfred Fowler, but they were no match for this powerfully built and courageous ex fighter either. Two defeats for the gang were more than its pride and arrogance could stomach so a mob of a dozen or so went to Plommer's house and when he came out to face them, they beat, stabbed and kicked him to death. They were soon rounded up, some getting prison sentences and Lawrence and William, being convicted of murder, sentenced to hang. Their executions brought to an end the gang terror in Sheffield in the 1920's.

My first visit.............any one heard of a gang member called Horace Osgood............could be my granddad????????????????

On the 3rd of September 1925, Tom Pierrepoint carried out a double hanging at Armley and on the following day a further single execution. The first two prisoners were Alfred Bostock who had killed his mistress, Elizabeth Sherratt and 23 year old William Fowler, who was a Sheffield gangster who had taken part in the murder of an ex boxer called William Plommer in a street ambush. Fowler's brother and leader of their gang, Lawrence, was to die the following day for the same crime.
Alfred Bostock and Elizabeth Sherratt both worked for the Parkgate Ironworks in Rotherham and had fallen for each other virtually on sight. Albert was married but had a passionate affair with Elizabeth which went along very well until Elizabeth announced that she was pregnant, a setback that Alfred could simply not accept. On May 3rd, 1925, her body was found floating in the river at Rawmarsh - she had been battered to death. Bostock was the prime suspect and quickly arrested for the murder. He presented a weak alibi in his defence and although the evidence against him was circumstantial, it only took the jury 15 minutes to convict him. It is unclear why he was hanged alongside William Fowler and not alone. One surmises that the prison authorities thought there would be trouble between the Fowler brothers so had decided to hang them separately. Lawrence and William Fowler were leaders of a Sheffield gang that had been terrorising the city for some time and who considered themselves beyond the law. One of the gang's members, Trimmer Welsh, had got into a fight with William Plommer over his treatment of the barmaid in the pub where they were both drinking, and Plommer gave the man a good hiding. Plommer was ambushed by another two members of the gang, including young Wilfred Fowler, but they were no match for this powerfully built and courageous ex fighter either. Two defeats for the gang were more than its pride and arrogance could stomach so a mob of a dozen or so went to Plommer's house and when he came out to face them, they beat, stabbed and kicked him to death. They were soon rounded up, some getting prison sentences and Lawrence and William, being convicted of murder, sentenced to hang. Their executions brought to an end the gang terror in Sheffield in the 1920's.


After reading J P Beans book, it doesnt paint the picture that the Fowlers were the 'leaders' of the Park Brigade, as it was called. They were just 'hangers on' so to speak.

Sam garvin was the one dishing out the orders according to the book.

The above was taken from the history of Armley prison. Their version of events may be different, or maybe in the 1920s they were trying to use scare tactics on the other gang members.

An ex-policeman worked as a storeman at the Signals TA centre on Barnsley Rd in 1958. He was a bit of a bruiser and told me of the way they broke up the gangs. Simple really they took each member one at a time , gave him a good hiding and that particular gentleman decided violence is not for him anymore.

FloridaBlade:-

Please, Please ! Don't upset a lot of people in Sheffield by even suggesting that any kind of violence might work against criminal violence ! Oh dear, oh my God, my legs have gone weak.

Just because it worked in Sheffield [ and other places ] it doesn't mean it would work now.We know that when the Sheffield police got tough and remained tough we had the safest city and very low crime figures for the next 40 odd years.

Now, it's very different, of course. Our Youf might well have a nervous breakdown if they are shouted at or chastised. Tut tut, what are you suggesting ! We must counsel them and have a nice chat and a cup of tea and tell them firmly but kindly that they musn't misbehave. Some of them are very naughty-----chivving, stabbing, shooting and stomping each other.

No, we must investigate these matters thoroughly-----maybe a government enquiry ?....but please no short, sharp shocks. It's very upsetting to some of us to even think about our Youf being upset and hurt for just messing about a bit. Weren't we all young once ?

hi
my grandad was involved in the princess street murder his name was george wills and he served 10 years for manslaughter for this crime.
I have only just found this site and was interested to find out more about the gang wars and wondered if george wills would be mentioned.
My husband grandad was also george wills who was involved in this crime, you must be related. My husband said he had never heard his grandad ever talk about that period of his life. Although I never knew him well, I remember him as a very nice quiet man who loved his family very much.

I'm a writer currently working on a play for the Crucible Theatre, based loosely on the Sheffield Gang Wars.

My play deals with the Fowler Brothers, who were part of Sam Garvin's Park Brigade mob, and sentenced to death for the murder of ex-serviceman William Francis Plommer on Princess Street. The murder took place on the night following Sheff Utd's victory over Cardiff in the 1925 FA Cup final.

Whether the Fowlers were guilty, or just scapegoats, is still debateable.

Does anyone have any - or knows of any stories about that time -not just the Gang Wars, but ordinary life in the slums back then? i have a picture on my wall, about the sheffield gang wars. two fowlers. wilfred fowler hanged for murder 3rd sep, 1925.
lawrence fowler hanged for murder 4th sept 1925.
maybe some more info ?

The book that I read, I think was by Percy Shillito who I believed was eventually knighted. This book is probably out of print, but any library should be able to aquire this on inter library loans for patrons, its my understanding this book was considered a "how too in fighting crime" and only available from learning institutions i.e. Colleges and University librarys. I assume Sir Percy's rank had been Chief Constable in Glasgow and Sheffield (if thats the highest police rank) Again its my understanding that he had been in colonial Africa in a similiar capacity and thats where he had come from. The story goes that he hired these six large policemen that they called "The Flying Squad" maybe these guys were given special rules (although I'm sure unwritten) to dish it out anyway they saw fit,and that they did. And the rest is history as they say. My dad lived in a back to back house near Bramall Lane, he remembered one time there was a shout 'the Mooneys are coming, the Mooneys are coming', you could hear doors being locked all down the lane, but somebody got a dustbin through the window, apparently they got the wrong house this particular time and they paid for the damage. I seem to remember a passage in the book where Shillito is interrogating one of the main gang members and talking to him like a father might, anyway he had the guy crying. Theres one little sad event that took place, this had nothing to do with any of the preceeding event, according to my father when he was a boy, he had a friend who worked after school at a greegrocers shop, it had a large display of vegetables outside in front of the shop, anyway the lad was attending and standing next to the stall, one of the 'Flying Squad" officers came up to the lad and asked him 'what he was doing" the lad was very shy and did"nt answer or did"nt answer fast enough, the cop who had hands like shanks of ham lashed out and hit the lad around the head and face knocking him flying, still the lad who was hurt did"nt say anythig, only when the shopkeeper came out and intervened did the policeman realise what he had done. He told the lad he was sorry many times over, my father said his friend had the welts on his face for a long time.

My Great Great Uncles were the Fowler Brothers who were Hung!. It has always been a bit of a taboo subject as the family feel strongly that they were hung to set an example. They were the younger members of the gang & being brothers the impact would be strong & as a result stop gangs ruling the streets of Sheffield & it worked, but a high price was paid by the two young brothers & their family

Was This acceptable?

In my opinion NO!

My Great Great Uncles were the Fowler Brothers who were Hung!. It has always been a bit of a taboo subject as the family feel strongly that they were hung to set an example. They were the younger members of the gang & being brothers the impact would be strong & as a result stop gangs ruling the streets of Sheffield & it worked, but a high price was paid by the two young brothers & their family

Was This acceptable?

In my opinion NO!
the general opinion of a lot of sheffielders who lived at this time was that the fowlers were innocent,although there at the time,it wasn,t them that dealt the fatal blow,and as you say,were made an example of by the justice system of the time.im really surprised that through the years,no attempt has been made to clear the brothers,or even try to find out who was really guilty. now THAT would make an interesting tv programme.

Just been reading this thread after a search on the net, we are having some building work done in our house and uncovered a newspaper in an old fireplace with 'MOONEY' on the top! I checked the land registry for my house and in 1955 Frank and Winifred Mooney lived in my house are they related to this gang? Does anyone know of them?

The book that I read, I think was by Percy Shillito who I believed was eventually knighted. This book is probably out of print, but any library should be able to aquire this on inter library loans for patrons, its my understanding this book was considered a "how too in fighting crime" and only available from learning institutions i.e. Colleges and University librarys. I assume Sir Percy's rank had been Chief Constable in Glasgow and Sheffield (if thats the highest police rank) Again its my understanding that he had been in colonial Africa in a similiar capacity and thats where he had come from. The story goes that he hired these six large policemen that they called "The Flying Squad" maybe these guys were given special rules (although I'm sure unwritten) to dish it out anyway they saw fit,and that they did. And the rest is history as they say. My dad lived in a back to back house near Bramall Lane, he remembered one time there was a shout 'the Mooneys are coming, the Mooneys are coming', you could hear doors being locked all down the lane, but somebody got a dustbin through the window, apparently they got the wrong house this particular time and they paid for the damage. I seem to remember a passage in the book where Shillito is interrogating one of the main gang members and talking to him like a father might, anyway he had the guy crying. Theres one little sad event that took place, this had nothing to do with any of the preceeding event, according to my father when he was a boy, he had a friend who worked after school at a greegrocers shop, it had a large display of vegetables outside in front of the shop, anyway the lad was attending and standing next to the stall, one of the 'Flying Squad" officers came up to the lad and asked him 'what he was doing" the lad was very shy and did"nt answer or did"nt answer fast enough, the cop who had hands like shanks of ham lashed out and hit the lad around the head and face knocking him flying, still the lad who was hurt did"nt say anythig, only when the shopkeeper came out and intervened did the policeman realise what he had done. He told the lad he was sorry many times over, my father said his friend had the welts on his face for a long time.
I always understood that the six officers were called 'The Big Six'.

Hi All

Interesting qoute from the last poster. But... at the risk of being repetetive, Sillitoe had nothing to do with forming the Flying squad. It had been formed a year to the day on which he took office. Lt. Col. John Hall Dalwood formed the squad, credit was denied him because he was not popular with the Police Authority.

Regards

DD

Hi Everyone
I must say I find all this very interesting, especially the stories. It certainly adds an extra dimension to who these men really were. I would greatly appreciate it if anyone has any photos, would love to put faces to the names. Being from Sheffield I can't believe i've not heard about any of this until now.
Thanks :)

Its been really interesting thread to read. I really must ask me mum what she remembers :o

All I can remember is me Granny saying...ohhh the Mooney gang..

Her mum, me grt nan, had a fishmonger shop on Solly Street and was there from c1910ish to at least 1928ish.... reallly wish I had listened to her tales now.....from wot i remember her telling me in the early 70's (me just a mere youngster :hihi:) is that they were "scared" of the gang....

lol saying that.....family story has it that me grt nan once chopped off the end of a guys nose with a meat cleaver...for nicking a rabbit she had on display outside her shop!!!! :gag::P

lmao then she gave him the "stolen" rabbit to feed his kids.....she just din't like thieves!!!

will quiz me ma and uncle an see wot they remember

Loz

My mate Sid heard on Grapevine over weekend that some local Sheffield bloke has written a book about Mooneys and Gavins and other gang war families in sheffiel in the 1920's. They said it was gonna be published and in shops by Christmas. Overheard some bloke talkin to afella from Germany about book, said it was gonna be called "The Caulbearer" and somethin about a family called Terney or Tierney. Also my mate sid said that there was anova bloke who was talkin about George Mooney and a bare knuckle fighter who was supposed to be the govnor in area from 65 to about 1978 Ernie Fernehough. Can't find any info on this bloke any body heard of family or any connections?
just thought i would try and buy book but cant find anythin, anyone know anythin please ler us know.

Does anyone have any information about the Sheffield Gang Wars of the 1920's?

I know there is some books that can be bought but was wanted some basic information.
One of the tv stations did program a couple of years ago it was excellent.

Hi,new here! I'm researching my family and and have come across a story regarding my grandfather-apparently he used to court one of Mooney's sisters in the early 20's and used to tell my mum about the times when Mooney's would be going on a job,and not to involve him they would send him home!!my grandads name was Arnie Redmile( A.G.Redmile,builders)and at the time lived on Woodseats Road-just wondering if anyone could recollect him,as he was such a qiuet,god fearing man ! thanks

Keep taking the tablets. Tell Sid not to forget his either.
My mate Sid heard on Grapevine over weekend that some local Sheffield bloke has written a book about Mooneys and Gavins and other gang war families in sheffiel in the 1920's. They said it was gonna be published and in shops by Christmas. Overheard some bloke talkin to afella from Germany about book, said it was gonna be called "The Caulbearer" and somethin about a family called Terney or Tierney. Also my mate sid said that there was anova bloke who was talkin about George Mooney and a bare knuckle fighter who was supposed to be the govnor in area from 65 to about 1978 Ernie Fernehough. Can't find any info on this bloke any body heard of family or any connections?
just thought i would try and buy book but cant find anythin, anyone know anythin please ler us know.