My understanding is that she did not agree with suicide bombings but merely understood the motivation behind their actions.
Do we just sack people we do not agree with. Where is freedom of speech here?

A person does not have to agree with something to understand or try to understand another persons actions.

I do not think suicide bombings have any point at all but Ms Tonge's point is, I think, that they will continue until somebody sorts out the Israeli's attitude to the West Bank. I think everybody will agree with the fact that the Palestinians have a genuine grievance against the Israeli government and that the Israelis do not seem interested in giving up any territory they have gained.

I don't think she should have been sacked. She said she could understand why people may become suicide bombers - surely understanding WHY they do it is a pre-requisit to finding a solution?

As the grafitee in Northen Ireland says..."If you can see a solution, you don't understand the problem"

Has she been sacked? That's ridiculous!

Originally posted by dilwise

Do we just sack people we do not agree with. Where is freedom of speech here?


Just ask Kilroy....

The difference here is that whilst Kilroy has repeatedly used crashing generalisations in his print journalism to denigrate many nations and races, Tonge made a single stupid error of judgement in implicity condoning terrorism.

But Tonge is pursuing public office, not presenting some cack TV show - I notice Kilroy gave up his political career.

I have revised my opinion of Kilroy, not only is he an idiot and a fool but his blinkered xenophobia and bordering on the paranoid mistrust of 'foreigners' shows that he is also a small minded bigot.

Tonge has not shown any tendency to become a suicide bomber, but in recognising that desparation leads people to extreme acts, she has committed a political gaffe.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Tonge has not shown any tendency to become a suicide bomber, but in recognising that desparation leads people to extreme acts, she has committed a political gaffe.
I don't think it was a gaffe at all. As you quite rightly say, desparation leads people to commit extreme acts. I can't imagine I would even be in that situation myself, but I can sympathise with people who are. I can't understand why she's said anything wrong. :confused:

... er, does my bomb look big in this?

She simply said something that is quite rightly utterly unacceptable within a multi-cultural political party. Gaffe or not - she had to go.

Originally posted by Tony
She simply said something that is quite rightly utterly unacceptable within a multi-cultural political party. Gaffe or not - she had to go.
Why is it unacceptable?

If it's unacceptable to say you can see someone elses point of view, we'll never go anywhere.

Once you understand why someone does somthing, you can start to possibly change things. Do you honestly believe suicide bombers do it just because they're born evil?

Suicide bombers do it, as far as I'm aware, because their remaining family receive a large lump-sum out of the kitty which is organised by the likes of Mr Laden and the ex-Mr Hussein.
At the last count I heard it was around £50,000 per blow-up

That's how it works.

Originally posted by dilwise
My understanding is that she did not agree with suicide bombings but merely understood the motivation behind their actions.
Do we just sack people we do not agree with. Where is freedom of speech here?

A person does not have to agree with something to understand or try to understand another persons actions.

I do not think suicide bombings have any point at all but Ms Tonge's point is, I think, that they will continue until somebody sorts out the Israeli's attitude to the West Bank. I think everybody will agree with the fact that the Palestinians have a genuine grievance against the Israeli government and that the Israelis do not seem interested in giving up any territory they have gained.
No, Israel doesn't want to give up any more territory - why should it? Israel is only about the size of Wales as it is and makes up approx 0.15% of the 'Middle East', which is otherwise occupied by arab/muslim countries. The truth is it doesn't matter how many consessions Israel makes the Palestinians/arab nations will not be happy until there is no Israel.

As for Tonge - she made an idiotic statement whilst trying to be "right on" and play to the audience she was addressing. Had she had the sense to climb down and make her excuses she may have got a second chance. Instead, she chose to "stand by her statement" and got sacked. The right decision.

It's not about freedom of speech. She was a representative for a political party and made comments that NO mainstream political party would claim to support or tolerate. When you're a member of a club you have to play by the rules and she should have known better.

Miss Tonges opinion was correct and freedom of speech on racial or ethnic and religous issues has gone loopy.
Ask why a married man with a family unemployed, can't pay his way and see's no light at the end of the tunnel gets caught shop lifting.
Its not right and there is no excuse but you can see why they do it.
Miss Tonges opinion was exactly the same but because it upset muslum communitys they sacked her.
This countrys becoming a political joke.

Originally posted by The Cycleracer
Miss Tonges opinion was correct and freedom of speech on racial or ethnic and religous issues has gone loopy.
Ask why a married man with a family unemployed, can't pay his way and see's no light at the end of the tunnel gets caught shop lifting.
Its not right and there is no excuse but you can see why they do it.
Miss Tonges opinion was exactly the same but because it upset muslum communitys they sacked her.
This countrys becoming a political joke.

I thought she was sacked because she supported the Palestinian's use of suicide bombers not because she upset muslim communities. You seem to have got your knickers in a twist here.

Miss Tonges opinion was exactly the same but because it upset muslum communitys they sacked her.

It was the Jewish communities who were upset by Dr. Tonge's comments.



No, Israel doesn't want to give up any more territory - why should it? Israel is only about the size of Wales as it is and makes up approx 0.15% of the 'Middle East', which is otherwise occupied by arab/muslim countries. The truth is it doesn't matter how many consessions Israel makes the Palestinians/arab nations will not be happy until there is no Israel.


This link goes some way to explaining why IMHO.
Occupation of Palestine (http://www.palestine-un.org/info/frindex.html)

Originally posted by Sam Miguel
Suicide bombers do it, as far as I'm aware, because their remaining family receive a large lump-sum out of the kitty which is organised by the likes of Mr Laden and the ex-Mr Hussein.
At the last count I heard it was around £50,000 per blow-up

That's how it works.

The Ex-Mr Hussein, is, as far as I know, still Saddam Hussein (no new identity yet). His payments have stopped.

Those from Saudi Arabia and Qatar continue.

And the payements are a) not guaranteed but bestowed as gifts and b)of theorder of $5000-$15000, not $75,000 as you suggested.

Originally posted by Siân
This link goes some way to explaining why IMHO.
Occupation of Palestine (http://www.palestine-un.org/info/frindex.html)
Sorry, how does this link explain why Israel should make more concessions/give up more land?

The information on the website you link to is also somewhat out of date (the "history" only goes as far as 1998 ).

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
The Ex-Mr Hussein, is, as far as I know, still Saddam Hussein (no new identity yet). His payments have stopped.

Another reason to pay regular bills by direct debit or standing order. I bet he'll be cross when he gets back to Tikrit and finds the gas cut off.

Originally posted by max
I thought she was sacked because she supported the Palestinian's use of suicide bombers not because she upset muslim communities. You seem to have got your knickers in a twist here.
Give over Max.
Thats there excuse for getting rid, we all know that if we say the wrong word these days the racial brigade want to hang draw and quarter you.
Unless its a white man onj the recieving end then it does'nt matter.
Miss Tonge does not support suicide bombers, no one in there right mind would she mearly explained why they do it.
They do it for a reason, maybe money maybe because they just have no brains, what ever there reason she just pointed one possibility out.

No what she said was:
...
That sort of thing repeated on a daily basis made me understand how people can become suicide bombers. I think if I had to live in that situation - and I say that advisedly - I might just consider becoming one myself


Imagine if Neil Kinnock had said a similar thing about IRA bombers during Thatcher's reign - He would have been burnt at the stake in Trafalgar Square.

This has nothing at all to do with race. Ms Tonge is part of a politcical system that has a recent strong tradition of condemning terrorism.

In a sense it is 'political correctness' gone mad, (not a phrase I am given to using) because it is now almost impossible in British politics to explcitly or implicitly condone terrorism. Violence and death is OK, just not terrorism (which of course is defined by the powers that be)

This seems to be mostly as a result of the 30 years of 'difficulties' in Northern Ireland.

Originally posted by Zamo
Sorry, how does this link explain why Israel should make more concessions/give up more land?

The information on the website you link to is also somewhat out of date (the "history" only goes as far as 1998).

But is no secret that the Israelis illegally occupy land is it?

Sorry, how does this link explain why Israel should make more concessions/give up more land?



I was referring to No.7 on that page - Israeli Occupation.
· Illegal Acquisition of Land

After the occupation, Israel, the occupying Power, immediately proceeded to take control of as much of the Palestinian land as possible. In the process, Israel applied complex measures for illegal land acquisition, ranging from the control of all state and communal lands, the application of the British Mandatory Defense (Emergency) Regulations of 1945 and of the absentee property procedures, the change of laws related to the expropriation of land, to the direct confiscation of privately owned land. The illegally acquired land could become either "closed areas," "security zones," "green areas," "nature reserves," or could be used for the building of settlements. More than 50% of the land of the Occupied Palestinian Territory, is now under Israeli control and approximately 7% of the Occupied Territory, including more than 1/3 of East Jerusalem, has been used for settlement building


No doubt there are more up to date links. This was just the first I came across :)

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
In a sense it is 'political correctness' gone mad, (not a phrase I am given to using) because it is now almost impossible in British politics to explcitly or implicitly condone terrorism.
But she wasn't condoneing it in any way. She merely said she understands why people go to those lengths.

Originally posted by The Cycleracer
Give over Max.
Thats there excuse for getting rid, we all know that if we say the wrong word these days the racial brigade want to hang draw and quarter you.
Unless its a white man onj the recieving end then it does'nt matter.
Miss Tonge does not support suicide bombers, no one in there right mind would she mearly explained why they do it.
They do it for a reason, maybe money maybe because they just have no brains, what ever there reason she just pointed one possibility out.
I was merely challenging your assumption that this was a race issue.

As has been pointed out in other posts one of the reasons for her sacking was to do with the impossibility of discussing these issues openly. The same problem occurs, for instance, in the debate on cannabis. If you support the de-criminalisation then you are automatically assumed to be a user.

Again, it was nothing to do with race and if anybody were to be offended then it would be the families of the victims of the suicide bombers, Israeli and Palestinian alike.

Phan/Sian, Israel occupies some land, which may be deemed "illegal" but it really depends on your point of view and how far back into history you want to go. It also depends on what you consider "Palestine" to be.

Prior to WW1 Palestine was controlled by the Ottaman Empire and consisted of the land now know as Israel (including the "occupied" territories) and Jordan. When the British took control after WW1 they "split" Palestine into two administrative districts. The first district was named Trans-Jordan (across the Jordan), which accounted for 3/4 of the land. Trans-Jordan (later re-named Jordan) was "given" over to Arab control. Jews were only allowed in the other 1/4, the other side of the river Jordan. Todays troubles stem from the fact that many arabs remained in the "jewish district" now know as Israel. It is these Palestinian arabs that claim to have lost their homeland to Israel.

Israel has alreaady given up the West Bank, Gazza Strip and Golan Heights for a Palestinian state, which is more than Egypt, Syria or Jordan ever did when they occupied these lands. Some say this is still not enough but I say it will never be enough (for arab/muslim nations) because it is the existance of a Jewish state that really bothers them.

Originally posted by Zamo
Phan/Sian, Israel occupies some land, which may be deemed "illegal" but it really depends on your point of view and how far back into history you want to go. It also depends on what you consider "Palestine" to be.

Prior to WW1 Palestine was controlled by the Ottaman Empire and consisted of the land now know as Israel (including the "occupied" territories) and Jordan. When the British took control after WW1 they "split" Palestine into two administrative districts. The first district was named Trans-Jordan (across the Jordan), which accounted for 3/4 of the land. Trans-Jordan (later re-named Jordan) was "given" over to Arab control. Jews were only allowed in the other 1/4, the other side of the river Jordan. Todays troubles stem from the fact that many arabs remained in the "jewish district" now know as Israel. It is these Palestinian arabs that claim to have lost their homeland to Israel.

Israel has alreaady given up the West Bank, Gazza Strip and Golan Heights for a Palestinian state, which is more than Egypt, Syria or Jordan ever did when they occupied these lands. Some say this is still not enough but I say it will never be enough (for arab/muslim nations) because it is the existance of a Jewish state that really bothers them.

If Israel is so big on honouring agreements (and I am not implying that 'Palestine' does either) then why will it not:

Declare its WMD and sign up to the NPT and an inspection regime?

Return to 1967 borders as originally proposed?

Stop using military weapons on civilians?


--
for balance I should also ask -

When will the palestinians:

Give up the right to return for the refugees that fled in 1948?

Rein in their paramilitary divisions and unify into an entity that can be engaged with politically?

One thing is required.

A mass paradigm shift in the mind of the population of the whole Levant.

this may be brought about by the following:

A complete embargo on the movement of firearms or anything involved in their production procurement or manufacture into the region.

And complete financial ostracism, no defence grants or aid for weapons, or gifts of nuclear weapons technology, no foreign currency for suicide bombers, no foreign fundraising for intifadas.

(none of these will be 100% effective, but if applied strenuously a sizeable impact will be made.

People who think they can win will always carry on fighting. Make it clear to all the parties concerned that they cannot win, by radical means if necessary.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
If Israel is so big on honouring agreements (and I am not implying that 'Palestine' does either) then why will it not:

Declare its WMD and sign up to the NPT and an inspection regime?

Return to 1967 borders as originally proposed?

Stop using military weapons on civilians?

I suppose they do not want to sign up to the NPT because they feel under threat from their Arab neighbours and believe maintaining and developing their nuclear weapons programme is crucial to the existence. Their fears are not without some basis given the ongoing hostility and the fact that their Arab neighbours have attempted to wipe them out on more than one occasion. I think things in the region need to stabilise a lot more before Israel will sign up to it.

Return to pre 1967 borders? When Egypt, Jordan and Syria attempted to destroy Israel in 1967 they lost territory, which is now the disputed "Palestinian land” in question. Israel has agreed to give most of this up for a Palestinian homeland. Interesting though that Egypt, Jordan and Syria never offered this land to the Palestinians when they had it don't you think?

I agree the use of military weapons on civilians is terrible and is only perpetuating the terrible cycle of hatred. The dilemma is what does Israel do to stop the suicide bombers and terrorist groups hiding within civilian communities, when the Palestinian authorities fail to control or stop them? Their solution is to build a wall to keep them out, which has received equal condemnation.

The cycle of hatred needs to be broken but, with extremists on both sides willing to do whatever it takes to prevent peace, I'm not sure how this is going to be achieved. :(

Anyway, I'll try and bring this back on topic before I get told off again... ;)

Whilst Dr Tonge may have felt she was doing nothing more than empathising with the Palestinians plight, her comments do nothing to help their situation. The fact is that suicide bombers harder the Israeli position rather than weaken it. Unless Israel is given good reason to stop building it's wall (i.e. suicide bombings stop) then soon the West Bank will be cut off with devastating economic and social consequences. Any kind of talk that implies there is some legitimacy in suicide bombing (even from relative nobodies like Tongue) only adds fuel to the fire. She was given an opportunity to correct any "misunderstanding" but instead decided the best thing to do was to stand by her comments. She showed a distinct lack of political savvy (twice) and was rightly sacked from her frontbench position.

Originally posted by Zamo
I suppose they do not want to sign up to the NPT because they feel under threat from their Arab neighbours and believe maintaining and developing their nuclear weapons programme is crucial to the existence. Their fears are not without some basis given the ongoing hostility and the fact that their Arab neighbours have attempted to wipe them out on more than one occasion. I think things in the region need to stabilise a lot more before Israel will sign up to it.
]
forgive an OT digression, but as signatories to the NPT in possession of nuclear weapons technology, the NPT would bind them not to sell or give it away to anyone. It would not compromise their strategic deterrent in any way. Israel would have to declare all her nuclear facilities and submit to international inspections. No disarmament involved. But they are pathologically secretive when it comes to the NBC weapons they possess, and refuse to even acknowledge, let alone divulge, their existence.


The same goes for her arab neighbours, naturally, their WMD are thought to be largely limited to Biochems which are actually banned by international treaty to which they are all signatories.

What should be remembered is that there have been 51 Security Council resolutions that have been or still are being openly flouted by Israel.

That makes the conduct of Iraq seem positively angelic by comparison.

When other countries flout Security Council Resolutions in such military matters, the collective response is to take action. But not in Israel's case.

This shady set of double standards seriously weakens the western rhetoric on the middle east, when Israel so obviously enjoys the massive and continued support of the USA, despite the cold war having ended and the wholesale import of Soviet weapon systems having dried up.

Return to pre 1967 borders? When Egypt, Jordan and Syria attempted to destroy Israel in 1967 they lost territory, which is now the disputed "Palestinian land” in question.

Or to put it another way, when the Soviets supported Syria in its plan to divert water from the Sea of Galilee, Israeli artillery began firing on the tractors doing the work. Convinced by the USSR that Israel was preparing troops on the border, Syria appealed to egypt with help against the escalating conflict. Then Israel attacked egypt in mid 67.


Israel has agreed to give most of this up for a Palestinian homeland. Interesting though that Egypt, Jordan and Syria never offered this land to the Palestinians when they had it don't you think?

Israel has to give it up because she agreed to abide by resolution committing her to return to borders established after the 6 day war, which in themselves are slightly larger than the mandate territories allocated to Jews and Arabs.

Egypt Syria and Jordan never displaced the millions of palestinians already living peacefully in the region. That's why they have no obligation. They all took refugees of course.


I agree the use of military weapons on civilians is terrible and is only perpetuating the terrible cycle of hatred. The dilemma is what does Israel do to stop the suicide bombers and terrorist groups hiding within civilian communities, when the Palestinian authorities fail to control or stop them? Their solution is to build a wall to keep them out, which has received equal condemnation.

The cycle of hatred needs to be broken but, with extremists on both sides willing to do whatever it takes to prevent peace, I'm not sure how this is going to be achieved. :(

Anyway, I'll try and bring this back on topic before I get told off again... ;)

Me too :)

Whilst Dr Tonge may have felt she was doing nothing more than empathising with the Palestinians plight, her comments do nothing to help their situation. The fact is that suicide bombers harder the Israeli position rather than weaken it. Unless Israel is given good reason to stop building it's wall (i.e. suicide bombings stop) then soon the West Bank will be cut off with devastating economic and social consequences. Any kind of talk that implies there is some legitimacy in suicide bombing (even from relative nobodies like Tongue) only adds fuel to the fire. She was given an opportunity to correct any "misunderstanding" but instead decided the best thing to do was to stand by her comments. She showed a distinct lack of political savvy (twice) and was rightly sacked from her frontbench position.
Absolutely right.

Thank you Zamo, you make some interesting points, but I don't think it's as simple as 'If the Palestinians stop bombing Israel, they'll get some land back, some sovereignty and Israel will give up WMD'

Do not forget that last summer, there were no suicide bombings in Israel for a couple of months. What did the Israelis do? Call a truce? Start peace talks? Move the military out of the occupied territories?

No - they called this a 'deceptive lull' and continued with their policy of killing Palestinian civilians (and news reporters and peace protesters).

Perhaps if the Israeli miltary stopped bulldozing Palestinian homes to make way for Jewish settlements, while the world sits by and either does nothing or supplies the Israeli military with weapons and support, Palestinians would not feel so embittered and betrayed that suicide was the only way out.

If you read the reports, I believe Tonge and Cherie Booth made their points on this subject very tactfully...sadly, for some people, any expression of empathy of behalf of the Palestinians is immediately answered with the slur of Anti-Semite.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,1130163,00.html

"This particular brand of terrorism, the suicide bomber, is truly born out of desperation. Many many people criticise, many many people say it is just another form of terrorism, but I can understand and I am a fairly emotional person and I am a mother and a grandmother. I think if I had to live in that situation, and I say this advisedly, I might just consider becoming one myself. And that is a terrible thing to say."

"That doesn't mean to say I condone suicide bombers, I don't. I think it's appalling and loathsome. But we have to try and understand where they are coming from and understand the situation in which they live."

Originally posted by Abdul
...sadly, for some people, any expression of empathy of behalf of the Palestinians is immediately answered with the slur of Anti-Semite.



Aren't palestinians also semitic?

Abdul, I agree there is no simple solution to the problem and I also agree that Israel does needs to do more to show it really wants a negotiated peace.

If Tonge had witnessed the carnage caused by a suicide bomber, or spoken to parents whose children have been blown to pieces, then I suppose she might have commented on how she herself might want to kill Palestinians or bulldoze their homes in similar circumstances. But this wouldn't have helped either.

Most people realise that both sides do have genuine reasons for hating. What we need is for those not emotionally involved (I can't think how else to put it!) in the conflict NOT to appear to take sides. We need to be sending a consistent message to both sides that retaliations must stop, no matter what the provocation. IMO telling one side "I see where you're coming from" doesn't help the situation.