Is there anyone out there that feels that the British are being forced to give up their heratage and identity in favor of political correctness.:mad: :confused: :(

Which bit of your heritage and / or identity are you missing, exactly? Perhaps someone on the forum can help you find it.

Errrr no IMO. Be more specific. :)

Only because it's so difficult to sort out the difference between 'national pride' and the extremist thuggery that we have going on here :suspect:

Nope. I don't remember anyone ever telling that I'm not English or that I don't have any heritage any more.

Perhaps I don't understand the question?

Originally posted by Strix
Only because it's so difficult to sort out the difference between 'national pride' and the extremist thuggery that we have going on here :suspect:
What's difficult about it? I have national pride and I don't feel the need to beat people up.

Quite honestly, no!

I think it's more a case of propaganda and paranoia. :suspect:

One thing that is good about this country is that it's heritage and identity are dynamic; the change from decade to decade. I like living somewhere that isn't stuck in the past.

Yeah just the other day some guy in a 'pc bridage' uniform held a gun to my head and said 'SURRENDER YOUR NATIONAL TRUST RUINED CASTLES, CUPS OF TEA AND YOUR PASSPORT'

:rolleyes:

It seems every which way we turn we are up against political correctness, for instance, we cant say Merry Chritmas anymore, we have to use the term, 'Seasons Greetings', so as not to offend the non christians within our society. The prison Guards who were banned for wearing a tie pin with the Union Jack upon it, so as not to offend prisoners from other countries. Like the nursery rhyme Bar Bar Black Sheep be banned from schools for being 'potentally rasist'.

The examples you give Clarkie do seem a bit over the top. But I think a lot of it it is to do with context, and being more aware of other cultures. However, I do not find my englishness or identity threatened in anyway.

Originally posted by clarkie
It seems every which way we turn we are up against political correctness, for instance, we cant say Merry Chritmas anymore, we have to use the term, 'Seasons Greetings', so as not to offend the non christians within our society. The prison Guards who were banned for wearing a tie pin with the Union Jack upon it, so as not to offend prisoners from other countries. Like the nursery rhyme Bar Bar Black Sheep be banned from schools for being 'potentally rasist'.

I can't say I've ever been told not to say merry christmas or sing baa baa black sheep. Who told you that you can't? did they have a gun?

Apparently no one has informed the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/funandgames/baabaa.shtml) either

There are a lot of phrases we use, which have become incorporated into our english, whose origin comes from our englishness. Are they racist? Are they are traditional english?

Like "cofffe coloured". It's only the colour of coffee if you put milk in it. Some races cant drink milk and some cultures take it without milk. Coffee is almost black not beige.

"Tan coloured"; it's only tan colured if you are white and have a tan. If you are black and have a tan it's a very different colour.

"Worked like a black". At one time we imported blacks because they were dammed hard workers and the english were more interested in doing easy jobs.

Originally posted by clarkie
we cant say Merry Chritmas anymore

Really? How come no one's edited this offensive phrase from your post? How come I'm already seeing it on Christmas goods in the shops? Could it be your talking rubbish?

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Really? How come no one's edited this offensive phrase from your post? How come I'm already seeing it on Christmas goods in the shops? Could it be your talking rubbish?

Not necessarily talking rubbish. Although it may still appear everywhere. I think there has been some move to make people aware that there are other festivals around Christmas. And not to assume that we all celebrate it. So seasons greetings is a more appropriate term. This is more with regard to the working environment I take it though.

We still sing Ba Ba Black Sheep at our nursery. I think a lot of these silly political correctisms are just false rumours spread about for silly propaganda reasons.

Anyway, would it really be safe for prison officers to be wearing tie pins in Wakefield Prison? Isn't it a high security one?

Originally posted by clarkie
we cant say Merry Chritmas anymore, we have to use the term, 'Seasons Greetings',

But this simply isn’t the case. I’ve always know people to use the phrase ‘seasons greetings’ pretty much as just another way to say Merry Christmas, I can remember my Gran saying it when I was little.

However if wishing people seasons greetings is indeed an example of the destruction of our culture then this destruction has been going on for a very long time, as far back as 1843 when Dickens wrote:

“He stopped at the outer door to bestow the greetings of the season on the clerk”

Should I have pointed this out to you? are you now going to start ripping up volumes of Dickens work as part of your crusade to rid the country of un-British influences on our culture and identity?

In answer to your question ,yes we are losing our identity,its bound to be this way when you allow mass immigration from countries with a alien culture and identity.
Still no one seems to give a monkeys so maybe they deserve to lose it.

Some of the politically correct brigade do seem to go a bit overboard on some things don't they?

Although a lot of it is rumour, some of the practices exist and actually make things worse IMHO.

For example, have you had a look at the Home Office recruitment website recently? 90% of the people shown as employees are black/Ethnic minorities.

In every publication from the Government they always ensure there is at least a 25% representation of black/ethnic minorities illustrated.

Now, that would leave one to believe there is a ratio of 1 in 4 people in this country who is black/ethnic minority wouldn't it? Whereas the percentage is nearer 4%.

Personally, I don't have an issue with black/ethnic minority people in this country, why would I? But I do have an issue with the Government over-representing black/ethnic minority people because I feel it leads to a misleading impression that in turn encourages racist actions/behaviour.

I wonder, could the Government be charged with incitement to cause racial hatred given their overly zealous representations?

Originally posted by royjames
In answer to your question ,yes we are losing our identity,its bound to be this way when you allow mass immigration from countries wilth a alien culture and identity.
Still no one seems to give a monkeys so maybe they deserve to lose it.

FFS! Since when did we not allow mass immigration to this country? It's been happening for thousands of years. It's what's made our country and us. All the British traditions you celebrate are a product of immigration. I take it you like certain traditions and want to keep them. Fine, no ones stopping you. If you want to stick with static traditions, then you can and be left behind by the progress of this land.

Originally posted by Andy78
FFS! Since when did we not allow mass immigration to this country? It's been happening for thousands of years. It's what's made our country and us. All the British traditions you celebrate are a product of immigration. I take it you like certain traditions and want to keep them. Fine, no ones stopping you. If you want to stick with static traditions, then you can and be left behind by the progress of this land.

The answer to your presumably rhetorical question is from around the time of the Norman Conquest until the passage of the British Nationality Act in 1948 (which effectively gave all citizens of the then British Empire (later Commonwealth) the right of entry into Britain (this automatic right was later removed by amendment, although many loopholes remained). In other words, Britian had a relatively settled population for almost a millenium. Yes, there was immigration into Britain during this period by various groups, such as the Huguenots and Jews, but their numbers were relatively small. Moreover, these groups assimilated into their adopted country with enthusiasm and relative ease.

I have been reading with interest the responses to my origional post.
Quite a few are you missing the point completley. It's not that i am prejudice, or have a dislike for ethnic minorities or immigrants to this country.
The point i am trying to convey is that the freedom of speech and to be proud of being british is being removed in favour of political correctness and i just wonder how much of our 'british identity and culture' will be eroded before the goverment will notice and see that they are creating racism by there actions to prevent it.

In addition i would like to mention i have 'with work' travelled extensivley throughout the world and have formed friendships with people from many different cultures and walks of life. I consider myself lucky to have experiened other cultures and and find it hard to understand why we have to adapt our culture to accomodate people choosing to migrate to Briton.

I do understand what you mean Clarkie, I'm sorry if my first post did not reflect that accurately enough.

I am British, I am proud to be British. When I go abroad I research the country I am going to, to try and make sure I do not do anything that would offend people in that country.

But it does often appear that people coming into this country do not have the same consideration.

As I have said in other threads, I'm very much a live and let live sort of person, but I do get frustrated, if not a little annoyed when we have to adjust our behavour/way of living in order not to offend people who are not from this country originally.

One example is the bill-board advert which showed Sophi Daal in a state of un-dress, if that does not go against the general ethics and principles of Britain why was it removed? It offended people in muslim communities - ok fair enough, but this is not a muslim country ... so why should we as a non-muslim country adjust our lifestyle?

If someone is Muslim, fair enough, I have no problem with that, but they must remember they are not living in a Muslim country so cannot expect everyone else to adhere to their particular faith.

Originally posted by Hels
One example is the bill-board advert which showed Sophi Daal in a state of un-dress, if that does not go against the general ethics and principles of Britain why was it removed? It offended people in muslim communities - ok fair enough, but this is not a muslim country ... so why should we as a non-muslim country adjust our lifestyle?
Wow, that was a few years ago now. I don't ever remember any issues with Muslims, still less the campaign being removed because it upset Muslims.

From *very hazy* memory it was the first time that a nude had appeared on a billboard, and that was the problem, not ethnic minority objections.

Originally posted by Hels


One example is the bill-board advert which showed Sophi Daal in a state of un-dress, if that does not go against the general ethics and principles of Britain why was it removed? It offended people in muslim communities - ok fair enough, but this is not a muslim country ... so why should we as a non-muslim country adjust our lifestyle?



The furore over this poster had nothing to do with Muslim objections; it was all to do with her sexually provocative pose in the billboard adverts.

Hmmm It was only a year or so ago (I think)? (I accept I'm not very good with time...) But from what I remember, the biggest issue was that it offended people in Muslim communities and was removed from those areas first.

But, that was only one example. If people come to England knowing it is a protestant country they should therefore expect to live in a protestant country whether they agree with it or not.

I do not see why we should adjust in order to accomodate other religions/beliefs when it is not the religion of this country.

It's not just religious issues though - it's silly things like not calling a Wendy House a Wendy House - why the hell not??

I think some of the politically correct brigade are losing the plot. Yes, we are changing and moving on. What was acceptable 20 years ago is not as acceptable now - what was that programme called - Love thy neighbour? That would not be seen as appropriate these days and rightly so. But I do honestly think the way things are going that there is going to be a backlash and that isn't going to do anyone any good.

And as for 'politically correct' we have had on a different thread the issue of 'disabled' toilets v 'accessible' toilets. OK, in respect for the person who started that particular thread I will try to refer to them as 'accessible' toilets but what is wrong with saying 'disabled' toilets? At least everyone knows what you are talking about then.

I could go on about being called 'a disabled person' when I'd much prefer to be called a person with a disability, but it really is not such a big isssue - is it? Disabled person is, at the moment, politically correct - whether I agree with it or not.

Originally posted by Tony
Wow, that was a few years ago now. I don't ever remember any issues with Muslims, still less the campaign being removed because it upset Muslims.

From *very hazy* memory it was the first time that a nude had appeared on a billboard, and that was the problem, not ethnic minority objections.
One particular poster was immediately outside a mosque, which, needless to say became the focus of the debate as to the acceptability of this poster.

It would not be newsworthy if white male drivers were having accidents whilst driving past one, or if a primary school objected to it's proximity (as actually happened too)

Originally posted by clarkie
.....people choosing to migrate to Briton.
You'd think that somebody with so much pride would learn to spell the country they're proud of :roll:

There are religions that require their followers to recite the whole holy book from start to finish, and some of us can't even spell one word correctly :suspect: :rant:

Originally posted by clarkie
I have been reading with interest the responses to my origional post.

The point i am trying to convey is that the freedom of speech and to be proud of being british is being removed in favour of political correctness and i just wonder how much of our 'british identity and culture' will be eroded before the goverment will notice and see that they are creating racism by there actions to prevent it.



You gave 3 examples of 'British identity and culture'.......

Originally posted by clarkie
It seems every which way we turn we are up against political correctness, for instance, we cant say Merry Chritmas anymore, we have to use the term, 'Seasons Greetings', so as not to offend the non christians within our society. The prison Guards who were banned for wearing a tie pin with the Union Jack upon it, so as not to offend prisoners from other countries. Like the nursery rhyme Bar Bar Black Sheep be banned from schools for being 'potentally rasist'.

Disco_Cat demonstrated that 'seasons greetings' has been in common parlance since at least 1843 when Dickens used it.

Patchy questioned whether tie pins should be worn by prison officers in a high security prison. (Sounds like an urban myth to me).

Patchy confirmed that they sing "Ba Ba Black Sheep at our nursery", and Andy78 provided a link to the BBC which confirms that good old Aunty is still singing about black sheep.

Care to give us any other examples of "British identity and culture" under attack? I'm sure you've given this serious thought, and I'd like you to share your other examples with us, please. But could you just given us some really serious examples of "British identity and culture" under threat, as posters seem to have demolished these examples fairly rapidly.

Originally posted by Tony
Wow, that was a few years ago now. I don't ever remember any issues with Muslims, still less the campaign being removed because it upset Muslims.

From *very hazy* memory it was the first time that a nude had appeared on a billboard, and that was the problem, not ethnic minority objections.

Selective amnesia is a wonderfully convenient thing Tony ;)

Originally posted by redrobbo
You gave 3 examples of 'British identity and culture'.......



Disco_Cat demonstrated that 'seasons greetings' has been in common parlance since at least 1843 when Dickens used it.

Patchy questioned whether tie pins should be worn by prison officers in a high security prison. (Sounds like an urban myth to me).

Patchy confirmed that they sing "Ba Ba Black Sheep at our nursery", and Andy78 provided a link to the BBC which confirms that good old Aunty is still singing about black sheep.

Care to give us any other examples of "British identity and culture" under attack? I'm sure you've given this serious thought, and I'd like you to share your other examples with us, please. But could you just given us some really serious examples of "British identity and culture" under threat, as posters seem to have demolished these examples fairly rapidly.

demolished is hardly the way i see it when persons have quoted the sun or the mail they have been laughed at for somthing to have happend its got to have been in the independent or guardian

and yes i read the sun but i also read the times

The Powers that be have and always will try to control how you think and feel, as for how British you are that depends on how British you feel or think you are.

What you feel or think is down to you, not what your goverment, TV or Tabloid you read wants you to feel or think!

My advice to you is to read my post "Allowing your thinking power to be oppressed ".

Remember your are what you are, dont allow the media or goverment to tell you what to be, othewise your meaning is no more than that of a flock of sheep.

Only you can unlock the true potential of yourself, only you can allow yourself to wake up, or you can stay oppressed by allowing your thoughts to be controlled by the media and goverments.

I quite happily say "merry christmas" when I wish, so i'm not feeling like the PC police are taking away my englishness.
And with regards to the tie pin, they were banned from wearing any tie pin, it just so happened that they choose to break the rule with a st george one and were then pulled up about it.

It seems every which way we turn we are up against political correctness, for instance, we cant say Merry Chritmas anymore, we have to use the term, 'Seasons Greetings', so as not to offend the non christians within our society. The prison Guards who were banned for wearing a tie pin with the Union Jack upon it, so as not to offend prisoners from other countries. Like the nursery rhyme Bar Bar Black Sheep be banned from schools for being 'potentally rasist'.

Right where do I start
It seems every which way we turn we are up against political correctness, for instance, we cant say Merry Chritmas anymore, we have to use the term, 'Seasons Greetings', so as not to offend the non christians within our society.

Have you got any evidence for this. Please post a link

he prison Guards who were banned for wearing a tie pin with the Union Jack upon it, so as not to offend prisoners from other countries.

Ah, another union jack story. Is it wise for prison guards to be wearing badges with pins on no matter what sort of design. If I was a prison guard and turned up with my Sheffield united badge on I'm sure I would be asked to take it off.

Like the nursery rhyme Bar Bar Black Sheep be banned from schools for being 'potentally rasist

It wasn't banned for been racist ( if it was ever banned) Harengay council tried to ban it because Bar Bar it is a kiddy work for sh-t

I think that Sheffield Council have got it right when they put up banners in December wishing us all Happy Christmas AND Happy Eid.
It is true that in one of the charity shops, I can't recall which one, they were banned from alluding to Christmas at all for fear of upsetting non-Christians.
When leaders of various non-Christian groups were asked if they would be upset by seeing Happy Christmas in shops they said emphatically that they wouldn't.
It seems to me that the PC Brigade cause more problems than they solve.

Originally posted by Hels
One example is the bill-board advert which showed Sophi Daal in a state of un-dress, if that does not go against the general ethics and principles of Britain why was it removed? It offended people in muslim communities - ok fair enough, but this is not a muslim country ... so why should we as a non-muslim country adjust our lifestyle?

Ermm it was removed after the ASA received 730 complaints about the picture from members of the public who had found it too sexually suggestive and unsuitable for display on the streets. The actual reason for it's removal was that it was sexually provocative and degading to woman. Perhaps this is just a fine example of British prudeishness at work!?!?

Most of these stories do have some basis, but they tend to be reports of specific decisions made by specific local councils and schools rather than the result of a nationwide edict. Moreover, they tend to derive from a fear of giving offence to minority groups rather than from pressure emanating from the minority groups themselves.

A recent example of this was the decision to remove the crucifix from a crematorium for fear of upsetting non-Christian mourners. This decision was taken by the crematorium authorities themselves. There had not been a single complaint about the crucifix from any member of a minority group. Similarly, prohibitions on references to Piggy banks and Baa Baa black sheep can indeed be found, but again they tend to derive from an unwarranted fear of giving offence on the part of officials with too much power and too little sense and from an over-zealous interpretation of the need to respect cultural sensitivities in Britain's 'vibrant' multicultural wonderland.

These stories are trivial in themselves, but there is a danger that they will stoke up fears and passions quite unecessarily and that at some point certain demagogic elements within minority groups, nourished on a culture of grievance and resentment, will begin to use them for their own nefarious purposes. For this reason, such decisions should not be dismissed as simply ludicrous, but should be actively discouraged.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Selective amnesia is a wonderfully convenient thing Tony ;)
Sadly though that's something that I have never suffered from :(
Come on mojo - you can troll *much* better than that. :nono:


I'm quite happy to be proven wrong hence how I couched my words, but as of yet there isn't anything. I guess I'll just have to sit here with my hazy recollections until somebody can do better.

I wonder if we have a whole new urban myth taking hold here? Quite ironic considering that Sofie Dahl and her father Roald are from an immigrant family who some could say have contributed a bit to British life - from literature to art to fighting the Germans :o

In the meantime, I'll await the reference to the Muslim outrage and subsequent pulling of the Sofie Dahl ad. :suspect:

Totally agree LordChaverley, that is the point I was trying to make - rather clumsily.

Some of these decisions to change the way things happen in this country seem to be done out of a fear of offending rather than from actual complaints of offence.

The Government seems to take the lead on this and my concern is that such practices will create more problems than they solve.

99% of the examples of 'political correctness gone mad' you hear turn out to have been taken out of context or just made up.

I'd be interested to hear of any personal examples where people have actually themselves been told off for singing Baa Baa Black Sheep, saying "Merry Christmas or Wendy House" or whatever. Any stories which start, "I heard there was someone who..." or "I read in the Daily Mail that..." should make any rational person suspicious.

The flag-waving thing is all very well but the symbolism is often more complicated than just national pride, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise. For example, you might think there's nothing wrong with a chip shop having a union jack or a cross of St. George on display - it just means "Great British Fish and Chips" right? - but in practice any chippy with a union jack on display is almost certainly run by white people, and that's part of the message they're trying to convey.

When I was at work, we were given a list of words and phrases we should not use as they may cause offence.

Some of them were perfectly understandable, others were less so. I can't recall all of the words/phrases, but here are two that I remember clearly:

Brainstorm - apparantly it can be offensive to people with schizophrenia

Nitty-gritty - apparantly can be offensive to some racial groups

Originally posted by RodimusPrime
99% of the examples of 'political correctness gone mad' you hear turn out to have been taken out of context or just made up.

I'd be interested to hear of any personal examples where people have actually themselves been told off for singing Baa Baa Black Sheep, saying "Merry Christmas or Wendy House" or whatever. Any stories which start, "I heard there was someone who..." or "I read in the Daily Mail that..." should make any rational person suspicious.

The flag-waving thing is all very well but the symbolism is often more complicated than just national pride, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise. For example, you might think there's nothing wrong with a chip shop having a union jack or a cross of St. George on display - it just means "Great British Fish and Chips" right? - but in practice any chippy with a union jack on display is almost certainly run by white people, and that's part of the message they're trying to convey.

Many of these stories do have a factual basis (do an internet search to trace their genealogy). As for your second paragraph, it expresses precisely the attitude which leads to these ludicrous examples of political correctness in the first place.

Originally posted by redrobbo
The furore over this poster had nothing to do with Muslim objections; it was all to do with her sexually provocative pose in the billboard adverts.

I don't really know about the incident in question so can't comment upon it. However, am I the only one to notice a remarkable similarity between the moralistic right and the PC left. It seems both have similar views on this kind of thing.

Were the late Mary Whitehouse and Ms Claire Short MP the same person? Were they ever seen together? it would be a black day for Britain if either type of person were allowed to get their way.

(PS, I use the term 'Black Day' quite deliberately in the traditional and non-racist sense of the term. Perhaps this is a better example of unnecessary PC than those given by the origional poster.)

what I find interesting is how easy it is to find the directly expressed views of the moralistic right - yet I only ever hear about the radical PC Left through hearsay and paraphrasing.

<quote>As for your second paragraph, it expresses precisely the attitude which leads to these ludicrous examples of political correctness in the first place.</quote>

Why?

Originally posted by Zenmaster
what I find interesting is how easy it is to find the directly expressed views of the moralistic right - yet I only ever hear about the radical PC Left through hearsay and paraphrasing.

Well, perhaps you are looking in the wrong places or are not looking hard enough. Alternatively, you might explore the concept of 'institutional capture' - i.e. the notion that a particular ideology has become so dominant that it becomes part of the mainstream of ideas and therefore it ceases to be regarded as radical or even remarkable.

Originally posted by RodimusPrime
<quote>As for your second paragraph, it expresses precisely the attitude which leads to these ludicrous examples of political correctness in the first place.</quote>

Why?

Because it encapsulates the presumptuousness which is the heart of these decisions. You state that:

'in practice any chippy with a union jack on display is almost certainly run by white people, and that's part of the message they're trying to convey'

Really? Your statement is based on the highly dubious assumption that a Union Jack logo on a fish shop is some form of malign symbolism, containing a hidden political or racial message. Do you really believe this? Presumably you do, otherwise you would not have posted it.

Rather than any alleged pc brigade (and do they really exist outside the world of infantile public sector internal memos and apoplectic journalists?) it is creeping intolerance and extremism that is undermining our national identity (identified here as a penchant for tolerance, freedom of speech, resisting authoritarianism and so on). The incitement to religious hatred bill is a handy example of this, pandering as it does to specific ‘faith’ groups who themselves are, to all intents and purposes, defined by their own pushy intolerance.

This raises the question of how long do we - UK society - tolerate intolerance?

How long should we tolerate, say, the creation of more and more faith schools with public funds that even leading bishops and rabbis fear will lead to religious segregation in our schools along Northern Ireland lines (anyone see the David Aaronovitch programme last week on just this issue)? How about pulling a TV programme or billboard poster because it ‘offends the religious sensibilities’ of some religious group? (Jerry Springer, Bhetzi) Or how about putting a crucial component of our economy, biomedical research, at threat because some twisted terrorists think they can save guinea pigs by digging up the dead or threatening nursery school staff with violence? And remember the Satanic Verses? Do we really want our society dictated to in these ways?

The real threat to our national identity comes, therefore, from weak, self-interested politicians practising a policy of neo-appeasement when they should instead be fighting loudly and firmly to face down extremism and intolerance. Appeasement didn’t work in the 1930s and it won’t work now.

Well said Withnail.

If I may quote Winston Churchill who said "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last"

Originally posted by LordChaverly
Because it encapsulates the presumptuousness which is the heart of these decisions. You state that:

'in practice any chippy with a union jack on display is almost certainly run by white people, and that's part of the message they're trying to convey'

Really? Your statement is based on the highly dubious assumption that a Union Jack logo on a fish shop is some form of malign symbolism, containing a hidden political or racial message. Do you really believe this? Presumably you do, otherwise you would not have posted it.

It's not a presumption; it's based on observation. When was the last time you saw a chippy with a union jack outside that wasn't run by white people?

Before this gets out of hand, I'm not saying that people should be banned from displaying flags, or anything else, I'm just saying that the intention in doing so is not always as simple as some people would make out.

Indeed, and here's another:

Winston Churchill back in the 1930s had this to say about another government that didn't believe a threat was real. As the Chamberlain Cabinet dithered about Hitler, Churchill warned: "They go on in strange paradox, decided only to be undecided, resolved to be irresolute, adamant for drift, solid for fluidity, all powerful to be impotent."

And he concluded: "The era of procrastination, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4319574.stm

all this worrying about national identity...

isnt very british is it :)

Originally posted by RodimusPrime
It's not a presumption; it's based on observation. When was the last time you saw a chippy with a union jack outside that wasn't run by white people?

Before this gets out of hand, I'm not saying that people should be banned from displaying flags, or anything else, I'm just saying that the intention in doing so is not always as simple as some people would make out.

It is highly presumptuous of you to make inferences about the implicit meaning of Union Jack symbols on chip shops. You cannot know what the intentions of the shop owners are, without interviewing them as to their motives. In my view this counts as presumption on your part. Your personal observations hardly count as scientific fact.

Originally posted by Zenmaster
all this worrying about national identity...

isnt very british is it :)

Well, actually it is. We worry about our national identity when it is perceived to be - rightly or wrongly - under threat (in this regard, we are no different to any other nation).

Got nothing to add to this thread except to point out that the Union 'Jack' is only named thus when displayed on board ship or within naval shore establishments. Elsewhere it is known correctly as the Union 'Flag'. :thumbsup:

AND,..... it amazes me how many of the 'flag wavers' don't know which way up it should be flown. The WRONG way is a signal of distress! Amazing how many establishments appear to be in distress these days.:suspect:

Pastime for you all. Report any seen to be upside-down on here. Let's see how many there are in Sheffield alone.:thumbsup: