Just lately my daughter has been getting into trouble at school. The incidents range from swearing at a teacher to throwing stones at peoples houses near school. I have grounded her, took stuff away, stopped pocket money etc... I got to thinking though does any of this really work? As a kid if I did something wrong I got hit by my dad. It never stopped me from doing anything though. I never thought I won't do that because I will get hit. I do not hit my children as it did not work for me and I was wondering if you guys could suggest punishments or rewards that had an effect on you. Bascially I am running out of ideas and if something worked for you it might work for my little one.:thumbsup:

Gillie, hey, tough call

I have no idea what to suggest

Other than to say that I was always scared about what my mom would think

She never hit me or took things off me, as far as I remember, but her displeasure was always crap, and still is as a matter of fact

I assume you have tried "heart to hearts"

Good luck, I hope someone who knows about parenting can help

But for what it is worth, I think you are doing the right thing. The main thing that kids learn from being hit is that it is okay to hit people when you are cross with them - not so useful in the playground!

Having not raised a child I wouldn't know too much. However, at 22, I can still remember much of my childhood and for me personally, punishments or threats of punishment were a more effective approach. Rewards should only be used when there is something to reward IMHO.

Gillie ... maybe more communication is the answer ... find out what's really going on with her ... get her to talk about it and give reasons for her behaviour.

She her you're supportive and loving and are there for her.

One suggestion I can offer is embarassment. Take her along to the teacher and have her apologise to her. Plus, take her along her school route and get her to apologise to everyone who lives in the houses at which she threw stones.

I remember 'borrowing' 4d from a milk bottle to catch the bus home. My parents made me take it back and apologise. Never felt the need to 'borrow' someone else's money again.

I come from a gentler age where people could leave money for the milk in the empty milk bottle on the step.

Interesting one Gillie.

I am no child psychologist but it sounds like she is angry about something.

How old is she, is it teen anger, friends that she hangs out with, is she naturally naughty?

Or maybe there is something that she might have difficulty expressing, just as Belle suggested.

Is she struggling with school work, a personality clash with a teacher, lacking other interests?

Is she blaming herself or you for something?

I am sure the case is that she will have the answers somewhere, the problem for you will be finding them...

Thanks guys for all your suggestions. My children are adopted and do come with baggage and have help to overcome these difficulties BUT (and its a big one) somewhere along the line I do really strongly believe that you have to be responsible for your behaviour. She is 12 and understands cause and effect. I just wondered if your parents had any skills that really did have an effect and made you think. I can't bear to think that she will carry on like this and mess up her education.

I also agree with Max that being shamed can provide much motivation for not reoffending. Do an "Uncle Buck" and threaten to pick her up from school every day dressed in your dressing gown and curlers if she swears at a teacher again!

My mum was great when I was growing up, if I was bad I would get punished, whether it was pocket money, grounding, confiscating beloved things or, when younger, over the knee slap on the bum (this was not hitting or beating up just sufficient enough that I didn't like it and would stop doing what I was doing and not doing it again).

However, there was one occasion when I got out of hand at school. I was 7/8 yrs old and knew right from wrong, but my mum and dad split up and I started swearing at teachers and hitting pupils when things didn't go my way, and became violent and angry at school. My mum had informed the school that she had split up with my dad and to keep an eye on me, but they didn't and all they did was write letters to my mum and brought my mum into school to tell her about me from a point of view of chuck her out, not help her. My mum sat and talked to me but that didn't seem to work. I don't think I knew myself that I was acting this way because of the split. She didn't want to punish me for this particular phase like she would normally punish me as she knew my behaviour had changed due to the marriage split, so she tried a different angle.....bribery!!

Not always ideal but worked in this case. She asked me if there was something I had always wanted. For me it was having my ears pierced which was something my mum was very anti until I was 16. She agreed that I could have them done if I was good for the next two terms at school and got good reports at both parents evening and end of term school reports. Now ear piercing is not expensive, so we're not talking about a pay off here. I wanted them that much that I behaved, I was an angel. I had an incentive! My grades shot up to A's, my behaviour was golden. I got my ears pierced and by this time I was over wanting to swear and be bad. So that worked for me. Not sure if that'll help in your situation, but sometimes, a reward for being good is better than a punishment for being bad.

Originally posted by Zamo
I also agree with Max that being shamed can provide much motivation for not reoffending. Do an "Uncle Buck" and threaten to pick her up from school every day dressed in your dressing gown and curlers if she swears at a teacher again!

You seem to know what you are talking about Lirean, what do you suggest Gillie does?

Originally posted by mikey
You seem to know what you are talking about Lirean, what do you suggest Gillie does?

Nicely put Mikey. I've just had a quick read of Lirean's other posts and while long on rhetoric, on such as how we shouldn't punish louts or shouldn't suggest that people may have mental illness as a possible source of sadness there doesn't seem to be much in the way of positive suggestions.

So Lirean, how about following up some of your criticisms with something positive?

As a semi follow up to some of this...

Lirean I think it's fair to say that you've jumped on this as if it's a 24/7 abuse type deal and that "nurturing" hasn't been tried... I'm sure it has...

Have to agree though... if we're big on positives, let's hear some on what positives could be done...

The idea of a token or reward system is one possible but I suspect useless for a teenager because it comes across as being patronising..


In all honesty though an even hand needs to be used... praise when things go well (not just taking stuff for granted) and consequences when rules get broken... All or nothing in response to just negative behaviour or just positive behavious is stupid in the extreme... it just isn't the way of the world...

Originally posted by max
Nicely put Mikey. I've just had a quick read of Lirean's other posts and while long on rhetoric, on such as how we shouldn't punish louts or shouldn't suggest that people may have mental illness as a possible source of sadness there doesn't seem to be much in the way of positive suggestions.

So Lirean, how about following up some of your criticisms with
something positive?

You see the meaning of the words is inseperable from the conceptual Geststalt of the words. So what you refer to as rhetoric I consider to be a reasonable figure ground relationship. Argueing for a theraputic approach to behaviour modification, to use an Orwellianesque, or Blairesque term is a prerequisite of constructive change.
People in my experience,(I manage a learning support unit in a large comprehensive school) seldom enjoy being unable to cope with their lives, and have become so alienated from the system they are a part of, that authority is percieved as the source of the problem and not as an aid in its resolution. This is clearly a very unnsatisfactory starting point to attempt to resolve any problems. Trust becomes paramount because without it, the true sources of difficulty are often hidden, either deliberatley obscured or unconsciously denied because they are painfull and frightening.

In order to enable trust to be a possibility empathy is essential, not lip service empathy but true entering into the other persons frame of reference and feeling the true context of thier lives. All to often whilst interacting with young people, we sometimes forget our own, very real sense of fear in the face of the world at that age, and we forget the bravado which was often our only security blanket at that time. And so brace yorself Im going to us e the "C" word, Compassion.

Things which as adults we "hopefully "take in our stride, were a massive deal at say thirteen or fourteen. If we weren't shown encouragment and support as kids then we can easily fall into the trap of being impatient with needs we see as being irrelevant or fostering dependancey. The truth in my experience, is that there are basic foundations to a persons emotional wellbeing and if these are not met, they may well become insatiable. Its not about beating your parent over the head with there shortcomings as carers, but it is about recognising and not critisisng the results of these shortcomings. Small achievable steps build confidence. If we (because of our need to have a bright child) constantly set unrealistic targets, or targets which
are percieved as unfair,the child will resist instead of recognising
the implicit value of our advice. They basicaly learn what they live.

If they live with hypocracey then we are asking them to do as I say and not as I do they will understandably reject it. I wont go on "any more" just to say that if, I think its gillie, would like I could post information regarding Learning Mentor provision which is available within schools, they will be more than happy to work with her to the aid of her kids. Together with possible sources of extra funding which may be available etc.

Thanks for sharing some positive possibilities..

Just one constructive criticism though... You're using a LOT of complex terminology that won't mean beans to a lot of people unless they've studied a psych or similar qualification. So, in the interests of effective communication it might be an idea to look for common terminology instead.

Cheers

Wow! What an answer Lirean! Nice to see some people can still use more than 2 syllable words.

I remember when I was a kid the embarrassment factor worked well - got caught shoplifting by my parents when aged 9 and was made to take it back to the shop and apologise to the manager. Never been quite so humiliated in my life. This did stop me from doing it again.

From my point of view, the one that worked best was where my parents sat me down and just listened to my side of things. Not passing comment or offering advice. Just listening. Afterwards they'd ask me what I thought should be done, and then offer their side. This worked well into my teens as it made me think about my own reasons more, and gets it out of your system at the same time.

Also occassional physical punishment is more of a deterent than frequent - stops you getting used to it, and also stops the building up of resentment (often released later in life when they finally get bigger than you, as happened to a mate of mine from school - finally flipped and punched his dad back, aged 19...)

Failing these, if there's an agression problem, try to get them to enrol in something physical, it could just be frustrated energy...

I am sure that Lirean's approach is very effective for a great many kids whilst with other kids it would be seen as a sign of weakness when a firm hand is needed. I suppose it's a case of different horses, different courses and remembering there's rarely a definitive right or wrong answer in life.

As parents all we can do is try our best and try not to beat ourselves up too much when we sometimes get it wrong - we're human too! All I can say is try the things that have been suggested (perhaps not taking her to school in your curlers and dressing gown - there's snow forecast you know!) and I'm sure things will work out just fine.

That's a very nice reply Lirean ... even though (like martin says) you use a lot of big words ...

I'm not a parent but ... I think ...

When a child (or anyone) has 'behaviour problems' ... it is usually the outward manifestation of deeper internal problems and issues.

The behaviour problem is simply the child trying to communicate that it is ****** off and very unhappy about something ...

Trying to force any external behaviour on them (by embarressing or bullying them) ... will not solve the deeper issues ... and it will probably just **** them off even more ... and also teach them that bullying and embarresing people are acceptable ways to get people to behave how you want.

Gain their trust and show them that they can open up to you and talk about what's really on their mind ... and you'll be supporting and nurturing etc ...

If you can get them to open up to you and talk about what the real problem is ... and maybe even provide their own solutions ... so much the better ...

But then again ... I'm not a parent (been lucky so far) ... so I could be a bit naive here.

Wish you all the best anyways Gillie x

Originally posted by Gillie
Just lately my daughter has been getting into trouble at school. The incidents range from swearing at a teacher to throwing stones at peoples houses near school. I have grounded her, took stuff away, stopped pocket money etc... I got to thinking though does any of this really work? As a kid if I did something wrong I got hit by my dad. It never stopped me from doing anything though. I never thought I won't do that because I will get hit. I do not hit my children as it did not work for me and I was wondering if you guys could suggest punishments or rewards that had an effect on you. Bascially I am running out of ideas and if something worked for you it might work for my little one.:thumbsup:

I think you are right in the "no hitting approach". Speaking as a mother of 2 and as a daughter. I aslo feel that shouting is a definite no no too.

If your daughter is 12 I think that this is a difficult age for her. Especially as there seems to be a rush to grow up now.

I think that it could be a long process to regain some control on the situation. Talking to her firstly would be a good step to find out if there is anything wrong. Perhaps she wants to be regarded more as an adult. If so why not do something "grown up" with her. Take her out for a meal and have a chat. Make her feel like an adult in the hope that she will tell you any problems in a mature way.

If there is no problem then this is probably where is gets hard. I think gritting your teeth for a couple of weeks and trying to ignore the bad stuff but reward like crazy the good stuff. Tell her teachers that this is the approach you are now taking and to bare with you.

I suppose it's like when your child swears for the first time. If you make an issue they learn that they get the attention. If you ignore it, it bores them rapidly. Also where did they learn the swearing?

Does "the baggage" she has cause her anxiety? Does she need reassurance?

I suppose this is nothing that you have already thought of as you seem like a good enough parent to post your concerns. Just thought I would post anyway as I know from experience sometimes having your thoughts confirmed helps loads.

Oh one last thing.

I was a terrible teen and I mean terrible. My mum tried all sorts of punishment with me. the only thing that ever worked and hit me right where it hurts was when she told me one day very calmly that she had lost all trust in me. It was like a punch in the stomach and I still remember it to this day.

I cried buckets and begged her not to feel this way. I felt like she had given up on me totally and I was abandoned.

I then started to try and regain her trust and be good.

I now get on fantastically with my mum. She still says I put her through hell but that I seemed to mature at an earlier age than others. The day I got married she told me that she was very proud of me and that looking back I hadn't done anything worse than she had in her day but just that in this day and age the stakes were higher.

Also knowing what I know about my childhood, I feel more equipped at dealing with my own children. I have a boy and a girl and I see that girls are quite different. They challenge their mothers a lot more than boys. They are very strong willed and want to be the boss from day one.

What about trying to give the resposability onto her. Its something i read about once and it seemed to work. At the start of evey week you have a clean slate and your daughter has an allowence of a set amount of money. Then between you it is agreed that she gets the money at the end of the week providing she behaves well. For each offense there is effectively a fine and she loses some of her cash.(maybe have a graph on the firdge that shows her decline in finances!) The first few weeks she'll probally get nothing but might start to figure out that if she wants it she has to play by the rules. By giving her the resposablity you're giving her control. This impowers her and takes the heat off you, making you less of the evil parent who is 'being unfair'. Its all fair because its been agreed on before hand and she was part of the process (all done when niether of you are mad)

Just an idea mind.

Good luck

I have had 4 children and non have grown up in trouble with the police, they have had the run ins at school, but my way is.

From an early age talk to them as a person not just a child. We discuss everything my kids are aged 22, 18, 15 and 10 and when school have rung I have done the taking pocket money off them, grounding, kepping them in, my 18 year old used to live in pyjamas, but we always discussed what was wrong and how they felt and how they made others feel.

They want to be treated as little adults and not little children and finding the middle ground takes time, but praise them when they achieve something and talk and talk when something bad happens. My 15 year old son says the worst punishment for him is for me to say i am disappointed in him, that hits home more than me being pi.... off at him.

Hope some of this helps

i as a 15 year old sometimes none dogooder find that heart to hearts dont really work and neither does grounding.

most behaviour that kids show is from their mates!

as punishment i would suggest a sorry to everyone harmed or offended. a total privacy block (no tv in room, no games, no computer, no money, no phone) and homework done as soon as he/she comes home, and extra jobs around the house (washing up, hoovering, tidy bedroom ect) early bedtime no puddings.

the list is endless. find a button to push and push as hard as you can! (thats what my mum does!)

You sure you're only 15 Fletch?

That's a level head you've got there sunshine.

Points well put :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

When my parents split up i turned into a right arse at school, and got myself kicked out. So my dad offered me a video camera (which i really wanted cause i skateboarded at the time) to do well in my next school. and sure enough, the first time the grades came back, they were all As.

But then the bribery didn't work, and almost a year to the day after i got kicked out of the first school, i got kicked out of the second. Moral of the story? Bribery works, but only too a certain extent, and only for so long.

So instead of going back to school for Y11, I took a course at Red Tape Studios in Music Technology (something i was really interested in). It was only a day and a half each week, so i worked from home for my GCSEs (didn't do badly either, A*, A, B and four Cs).

Red Tape was a really eye opener for me. It wasn't like school, where you've got 8 lessons a day. It was a nice relaxed atmosphere, but there was no leway (is that even a real word?). Miss 4 classes in a row and your off the course. Miss 2 homeworks in a row and your off the course. Without good reason anyway. It wasn't like "oh no i've got detention whatever am i going to do" it was more like "if i don't do this i've got nowhere else to go and i've shafted it". Some real world experiance can be good for people. I think it calms you down from the teenage "like i give a f*** i'll never get my comeuppance, i'm a teenager and i'm invincible!" At least it was for me. not the old "ooo if you do this you'll never get anywhere in life" some actualy no excuses no chance for arguing screw up and your gone proper real world experiance. but that's just what worked for me, i'm not a psychologist or anything.

EDIT: oh yeah and now i'm at college, doing pretty well, haven't screwed up or anything, so yeah, kind of like the proof is in the pudding or whatever the saying is

Chaz - RejectedHalf

as an 18year old jus havin left the kid stage (ok some o u oldies might disagree but still) i found a quick slap round the head and a good shaming work wonders for me. the shame more than the slap as i got older - embarresment in fron of friends or people they know doest work it just makes them hate you more - but things around the house such as making me go to my room all night for being rude kinda things - my skool had some great punishments for me at skool - they used to make u clear all the garbage up around skool in bright pink gloves - or make u clean all the stuff up in cafeteria whilst whearing an old pair o PE kit it was really embarresing but it work at skool as all kids care about at that age is what their mates think- or for wastin teachers time they wasted yours my making u write pointless stuff like "a story about a day in the life of a piece of dust in a tennis ball" these worked i for me - as if u didnt do it once the size o the thing doubled until on the third attempt u went to the head and parents were called- sounds old fashioned but it worked!

It seems that Yob culture is alive and kicking:

What punishment would you suggest in this incident as he obviously has no respect for authority.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004260437,,00.html

even i say he should be locked up instantly!! i hate litle t***s like that! "im a rude boy, ill do what i want, im the best, hahaha"

i had someone try and start on me a while ago now and he was a "rude boy" he came up to me and said "what u lookin at" in that chavy accent "god knows" i replied (this cheesed him off a little) so i just said

" yeh you may be bigger and stronger and could beat me up, but where is that gonna get you? if you ever want a mental fight count me in. but please stop being an a*se and F-off" he was well stumped and i was proud

Originally posted by Fletch
even i say he should be locked up instantly!! i hate litle t***s like that! "im a rude boy, ill do what i want, im the best, hahaha"

i had someone try and start on me a while ago now and he was a "rude boy" he came up to me and said "what u lookin at" in that chavy accent "god knows" i replied (this cheesed him off a little) so i just said

" yeh you may be bigger and stronger and could beat me up, but where is that gonna get you? if you ever want a mental fight count me in. but please stop being an a*se and F-off" he was well stumped and i was proud

If you just ignore them and walk away that ****** them off even more... These little chavs do their misbehaving cos it provokes a reaction, if people don't react, the chavs will get bored of acting the goon.