Metro Newspaper :blush:
British Forces battered down the walls of an Iraqi jail last night to free two commandos detained for shooting dead a policeman.

The troops used at least ten tanks. backed by helicopters, to smas their way into the building where the men were held, after a day of violent clashes in Basra.

Dozens of Iraqi prisoners were said to have fled the jail when the soldiers stormed in.

Last night Mohammed al-Waili, the governor of Basra province, said the British raid was 'Barbaric, savage and irresponsible'.

The jail break came at the end of a day of clashes between troops and demonstrators, which left at least four people dead. The two undercover soldiers, said to have been dressed as Arabs, killed one policeman and injured another who went to investigate.

The men were captured and taken to jail. Their photos were taken - with bloodied clothes and bandaged heads - were shown on Arab TV.

When British troops moved in and surrounded the buildings they were confronted by protesters who hurled stones and petrol bombs. One soldier was seen scrambling from his flaming Warrior armoured vehicle.

Three soldiers and at least 15 Iraqi civilians were hurt.

Later, under cover of darkness, at least ten British tanks flattened the jail. The arrested soldiers were taken away to an unknown location



Now admittedly this was in the Metro, but still.

this article disturbed me. I dont see why we had to send in troops. Yet more innocent lives taken. When will we stop interfering with things that do not concern us. :(

There is rumours that the two soldiers were Special Forces which would explain why the got them out asap. Still is bad when innocents are injured and known criminals escape though!!

Look like the timeline in that article is wrong.

The guys got arested. Now what they were doing shooting at police, or with explosives in the car i don't know, but the tanks didn't go in, until people were outside the prison where they were being held. The people were thought to be trying to get the two 'commandos" inside, to bargain for the release of cleric Moktada al-Sadr's men that had been arrested and were in British custody.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/international/middleeast/20iraq.html

Also another timeline here, from Jaun Cole who is not a nobody blogger, but a historian at MIT.

http://juancole.com/

Weird story for sure.

Originally posted by back2basics
Look like the timeline in that article is wrong.

The guys got arested. Now what they were doing shooting at police, or with explosives in the car i don't know, but the tanks didn't go in, until people were outside the prison where they were being held. The people were thought to be trying to get the two 'commandos" inside, to bargain for the release of cleric Moktada al-Sadr's men that had been arrested and were in British custody.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/international/middleeast/20iraq.html

Also another timeline here, from Jaun Cole who is not a nobody blogger, but a historian at MIT.

http://juancole.com/

Weird story for sure.

It is a weird story, and there certainly seems to be massive gaping holes in it.

As far as what I have seen of the story though, I feel that the British troops were in the wrong. The soldiers commited a crime and were locked up, I dont see anythign wrong with that. It seems like its one rule for us and one rule for them :(

Yeah i think though the importance of the timeline is they didn't bust them out until after the crowds were threatening to get the two guys themselves. If they had got in and got the men they would have been dead, unless we released some of al-Sadr's men.

You need to take in to account what went on before with al-Sadr's men. He has been stiring up trouble for a while now.

There are pictures somewhere of what they found in the car. Not regular army kit. They must be S.A.S or something.

The whole thing is looking futile. Im glad the lads are ok, god knows what would have happened to them.

I think its time to get out and say enough is enough, weve done our best. If the police are corrupt then what chance is there?

But wether they were Army Soldiers or not, that should make no difference to them being imprisoned for a crime they commited in a foreign country. You see thats what happens when we stick our noses in places that we shouldnt.

Originally posted by ilaria
The whole thing is looking futile. Im glad the lads are ok, god knows what would have happened to them.

I think its time to get out and say enough is enough, weve done our best. If the police are corrupt then what chance is there?

Problem is we're in a no win situation now.. if we leave, we leave the people of Iraq in absolute chaos... with no sign of things settling down. If we don't leave we're going to just inflame an already disasterous situation and get more of our troops petrol bombed and attacked and whatever else.. and for what!?

We should have left it well alone. We went in for oil and George Bush's Dads honour and it was totally out of order. I marched on the anti war rallies and was astounded when we went to war.

Shock and Awe was awful and its just got worse from then... I can't see it getting better quickly. Very sad for all involved except the Bush empire and all the US companies that are cashing in on it.

We won't ever know the full story but the (as yet unconfirmed) circumstances outlined by the BBC were that the British men were in fact handed over to militants by the Iraqis which would explain why they wanted them out before they lost their heads.

We should not be in Iraq in the frist place,mind you now we are invloved we have to show those who take our people prisoner they will pay a heavy price for their actions,they should have listend to the Iraqi goverment and released them from captivity.
Maybe they will think long and hard before they do it again.

Originally posted by royjames
We should not be in Iraq in the frist place,mind you now we are invloved we have to show those who take our people prisoner they will pay a heavy price for their actions,they should have listend to the Iraqi goverment and released them from captivity.
Maybe they will think long and hard before they do it again.

Why should they have to release them? I just dont get it. As far as I have read, they were locked up for a reason. If iraqis came over here and done something wrong, then the Iraqi government said they want them releasing, do you think we would let them go? hell no. So whats the difference.

p.s. I agree that we shouldnt be over there in the 1st place too, but while we are, at least do a good job of it, which we clearly are not.

Originally posted by royjames
We should not be in Iraq in the frist place,mind you now we are invloved we have to show those who take our people prisoner they will pay a heavy price for their actions,they should have listend to the Iraqi goverment and released them from captivity.
Maybe they will think long and hard before they do it again.

From what information I've seen, I understand the comment that British troops had to free the captives, otherwise a precedent would have been set in that any captured British troops could have been executed (which no doubt would have been capitalised on by both the pro- and anti-war brigades over here). I say could have, as the captured British troops were still alive when rescued, and if the militants wanted to kill them, they had plenty of time to do so.

However, the problems are that (a) yes, British troops should not have been there in the first place (b) several Iraqi prisoners also escaped at the same time, (c) the police station is now destroyed, hampering any further police action and (d) support between Iraqi police and British troops may be about to end, what with the alleged killing of an Iraqi policeman by the SAS, and the apparent handing over of the captured troops to Militants.

I would like to know what SAS troops were doing though, allegedly shooting dead Iraqi policemen. After seeing the images of the British tanks set on fire, and the troops fleeing for their lives, I feel that the situation is going to get much worse.

Maybe Blair just wanted his own personal Vietnam so he can write himself into future encyclopedias, and we'll all buy his autobiography when he eventually stands down as PM?

From what I understand, the army moved in because they had intelligence that indicated the 2 SAS men were about to be handed over from the police to the molitia (that's probably not the right spelling) and that's why the army moved in.

It is one thing for them to be held by a legitimate authority ie the police, but quite another for them to be handed over to a terrorist group.

Now, I don't think we should be in Iraq to start off with, but while so ever our troops are there, they should be protected from terrorist groups.

I know someone (a distant family member) whose son is out there - somewhere. I always think, what if it is him? He is the same age as my daughter - what would I want the British army to do if it was someone close to me? Like any normal person I would want my family to be safe and to be rescued if they were in a dangerous situation.

I don't think any of us here know exactly what is going on out there, I don't think we ever will. It's a total mess, and innocent people are losing their lives every day.

I also read (AOL news so not sure if anything changed as it usually does) that the soldiers were not in fact in the prison and that those on the operation were directed to a house where they were being kept. To me this seems a little suspicious. I agree though that our troops should not be there, they were doing a great job looking after themselves before we interfered.

OMG would (some of) you lot really write off our own people so easily...

...I seriously despair.

:(

Originally posted by foo_fighter
OMG would (some of) you lot really write off our own people so easily...

...I seriously despair.

:(

What do you mean by that though? I dont think anyone is writing us off.

No foofighter, I don't think anyone is writing our troops off, quite the opposite really.

I want everyone of our troops to be safe, and back home. They are doing what they have to do, they don't really have a choice. It's easy for us here at home to go on about what should and should not happen. What I was trying to say is - if I had a son/daughter out there, I would want our other troops to do whatever was necessary to get them out and get them safe. But, I don't think we should be there in the first place. That's not the issue here though. They are there, and they should be protected and kept safe whilst still trying to maintain some sort of peace in the area.

I feel that the British troops were in the wrong.

"British Troops" (as a collective) are never in the wrong. They put their lives in danger everyday for our safety, for the safety of others and for the rights we take as granted.

Politicians on the other hand.....

Originally posted by spyro2000
As far as what I have seen of the story though, I feel that the British troops were in the wrong. The soldiers commited a crime and were locked up, I dont see anythign wrong with that. It seems like its one rule for us and one rule for them :(

You don't see anything wrong with that? Ask yourself, would you really want to be "locked up" in that s**t hole of a country by people who would slit your throat as soon as look at you, or would you want to be rescued by your fellow soldiers?

We're not dealing with civilized people here, don't forget. The soldiers did exactly the right thing by rescuing their mates IMO.

Originally posted by mojoworking
You don't see anything wrong with that? Ask yourself, would you really want to be "locked up" in that s**t hole of a country by people who would slit your throat as soon as look at you, or would you want to be rescued by your fellow soldiers?

We're not dealing with civilized people here, don't forget. The soldiers did exactly the right thing by rescuing their mates IMO.

You are right. Maybe I didnt quite use the right words. Well in fact I used the totally wrong words. The soldiers themselves are not in the wrong, but in general the government and the way they do things is in the wrong imo.

These soldiers are being put into precarious positions. They are only doing what they are told so its not down to the, I feel for them actually. they do a grand job.

Originally posted by spyro2000
You are right. Maybe I didnt quite use the right words. Well in fact I used the totally wrong words. The soldiers themselves are not in the wrong, but in general the government and the way they do things is in the wrong imo.

These soldiers are being put into precarious positions. They are only doing what they are told so its not down to the, I feel for them actually. they do a grand job.

Can't argue with you there ;)

Originally posted by spyro2000
But wether they were Army Soldiers or not, that should make no difference to them being imprisoned for a crime they commited in a foreign country. You see thats what happens when we stick our noses in places that we shouldnt. have you considered they returned fire in self defence? you can bet your life there was a good reason for it, these troops are trained to infiltrate to gather information,not go in like some hollywood movie star with guns blazing

if we wait the truth as to why they were risking their lives in the middle of town may come out, i for one think the brit commander was right to go in after them,they could have been used to force the release of terrorists and the odds are they would have been shown on video then have their throats cut.

also what kind of mate would you be if you didnt attempt a rescue of fellow soldiers? not the kind i would like to serve with.

the rescue squad did not go in with guns blazing,negotiations were tried first,then when they failed a successful mission was formed and executed to extract these two soldiers,all this while a baying petrol bomb throwing mob were trying to kill british personnel

Originally posted by mojoworking
You don't see anything wrong with that? Ask yourself, would you really want to be "locked up" in that s**t hole of a country by people who would slit your throat as soon as look at you, or would you want to be rescued by your fellow soldiers?

We're not dealing with civilized people here, don't forget. The soldiers did exactly the right thing by rescuing their mates IMO.

The country has been turned into a sh*thole by the US & British armies - all for want of oil.

As for uncivilised people - The troops shot a policeman and went to jail, therefore the obvious thing to do would be to set tanks on the prison, flatten a police station, freeing other criminals in the process and injuring people - In anothers country!!! is that civilised?

Originally posted by Lestat
The country has been turned into a sh*thole by the US & British armies - all for want of oil.

As for uncivilised people - The troops shot a policeman and went to jail, therefore the obvious thing to do would be to set tanks on the prison, flatten a police station, freeing other criminals in the process and injuring people - In anothers country!!! is that civilised?

Silly me, I was thinking of beheadings and other such mild unpleasantness ;)

I don't see why Iraqi police would hold them without negotiation with the army brigadeer, as he is on good terms with the Iraqi general.

I personally don't think talk of being "civilised" is at all instructive. In a situation where you've got a poor, uneducated populace, a power vacuum, and any number of warlords scrabbling for whatever they can get, some very nasty things are inevitably going to happen.

In truth Iraq is a complete mess. It always has been, and now, quite possibly, always will be.

just read this, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1790386,00.html maybe it explains it better than a lot of speculation as to why the police station was attacked

Originally posted by GazB
I don't see why Iraqi police would hold them without negotiation with the army brigadeer, as he is on good terms with the Iraqi general.

There is strong evidence that many of the Iraqi police are now in bed with the insurgents.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Silly me, I was thinking of beheadings and other such mild unpleasantness ;)

I apologise too - Here am I thinking that starting a war without UN backing, dropping bombs on innocent people, taking prisoners and abusing them - taking photo's and films of them being electricuted, raped, dogs set upon, dragged around prisons whilst soldiers pose smiling next to them, shooting innocent civilians, killing whole families at weddings ( thinking it was a group of militants because there was gunfire ), killing women and children, posing next to dead bodies etc . . . . . etc . . . . . etc . . . . . .

Spose it's just me mojoworking. Apologies, you are thinking of the civilised ones.:rolleyes: :thumbsup:

It would be good if peoples opinions are based on first hand experiences and not what you have read somewhere which is always biased towards one side or another.

Its difficult in this case as its happening so far away and doesnt impact on our lives so much.:confused:

If thats the case then keep your second hand opinion to yourself as its not worth writing or reading. Putting the facts forward is the way to go.:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Lestat
...taking prisoners and abusing them - taking photo's and films of them being electricuted, raped, dogs set upon, dragged around prisons whilst soldiers pose smiling next to them, shooting innocent civilians, killing whole families at weddings ( thinking it was a group of militants because there was gunfire ), killing women and children, posing next to dead bodies etc . . . . . etc . . . . . etc . . . . . .

Don't tell me, you're describing a typical slumber party at the Neverland Ranch, right? ;)

Originally posted by Hadron
It would be good if peoples opinions are based on first hand experiences and not what you have read somewhere which is always biased towards one side or another.

Mine is first hand, unlike everyone elses.

To the people that put down the soldiers for killing a sometimes innocent person, why don't you see how you'd like patrolling a busy market in downtown Basra, knowing half of the people there want you dead and knowing it's so easy for someone to pull a gun out and open fire on you?

The troops can only retrurn fire, not open fire.. So you have to forgive them for being a little on edge.

Gaz

Originally posted by mojoworking
Don't tell me, you're describing a typical slumber party at the Neverland Ranch, right? ;)

You're excelling yourself :)

Interactive Guardian Special Report:

British soldiers storm Iraqi Prison

http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,1574377,00.html

According to the report:

Two British soliders, operating under cover, were detained at an Iraqi police checkpoint. Shots were fired and two Iraqis were injured, one of them possibly fatally.

It doesn't answer why the soliders were undercover in the first place. Perhaps they were trying to recreate the infamous Andy McNab checkpoint shootout from Bravo Two Zero?

Bookwriting is a lot more profitable than getting shot at ;)

Reading around the papers today the story that's emerging seems to be that these two soldiers were handed over to the Shia extremist militia by the Iraqi police and were to be used as hostages in negotiations for the release two extremist militiamen.

Once the army had discovered they were being held in a house close to the police compound an assault was launched to create a diversion whilst efforts were made to free the two British soldiers.

Given the widespread infiltration of the Iraqi police force by extremists of one kind or another there looks to be little hope of any stability in the Basra area and the army are essentially on their own in trying to maintain order.

It's turning into a complete disaster, - well done Tony Bliar :thumbsup:

That fact that they were out of uniform would mean that they were 'illegal combatants', and therefore according to G Dubya & Lil Tony not covered by the Geneva Convention !

or let me guess there is a little clause in the definition of 'illegal combatant' that says you have to be non western :)

Unfortunately our leaders (esp the American leaders), take their orders from Israel, so there is always going to be trouble ahead.

At the end of the day, might is right is the prevailing doctirine, and perhaps it always has been and always will be the case.

Lol, everytime I hear the word 'intelligence' mentioned, it makes me want to burst out laughing..

more like 'hear say' :)

I've read several stories about how the SAS chaps were going to be handed over to 'extremists', or were in the process of being handed over. Again, says who ? They were set free from a police station, along with 150 other criminals.

Lol, oh yes, Iraq is much safer now !

Cheers Lil Tony.

Originally posted by Abdul
Interactive Guardian Special Report:

British soldiers storm Iraqi Prison

http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,1574377,00.html

According to the report:

Two British soliders, operating under cover, were detained at an Iraqi police checkpoint. Shots were fired and two Iraqis were injured, one of them possibly fatally.

It doesn't answer why the soliders were undercover in the first place. Perhaps they were trying to recreate the infamous Andy McNab checkpoint shootout from Bravo Two Zero?

Bookwriting is a lot more profitable than getting shot at ;) abdul,realy, i expected better from you,......ive always thought your posts were level headed, but this one i feel lets you down, you know as well as i that the lads out there are doing their best, they dont go in all gung ho like the yanks and think of themselves as peace keepers,not an invading army,very little is published about our troops compared to others but they are making a differance,and i believe that they are doing a proffessional job while out there, if they were that ****** of then just one of the armoured cars firing over a thousand rounds a minute could have devastated the mob,but they didnt,with true british reserve they went in and got the job done,mission accomplished and pulled out, end ex......the people who know whats what will know what that means............

Originally posted by depoix
abdul,realy, i expected better from you,......ive always thought your posts were level headed, but this one i feel lets you down, you know as well as i that the lads out there are doing their best, they dont go in all gung ho like the yanks and think of themselves as peace keepers,not an invading army,very little is published about our troops compared to others but they are making a differance,and i believe that they are doing a proffessional job while out there, if they were that ****** of then just one of the armoured cars firing over a thousand rounds a minute could have devastated the mob,but they didnt,with true british reserve they went in and got the job done,mission accomplished and pulled out, end ex......the people who know whats what will know what that means............

depoix

I have no wish to upset you, but I'm confused as to how my post has disappointed you so much. I have already mentioned on page 1 of this thread that I understood the reasons why the British soldiers had to be rescued.

I agree that British soldiers have not been as gung-ho as their American counterparts, but it doesn't change my view that British soliders should not be in Iraq anyway.

And we still don't know why two British soldiers were working undercover, and shot an Iraqi policeman at a checkpoint.

It doesn't answer why the soliders were undercover in the first place. it;s called , covert undercover imformation gathering what do you expect them to do walk about with union jack suits on blowin on a trumpet

Originally posted by deadgobby
it;s called , covert undercover imformation gathering what do you expect them to do walk about with union jack suits on blowin on a trumpet

Not very clever of them to get out and start shooting Iraqi policemen then, was it?

Originally posted by deadgobby
It doesn't answer why the soliders were undercover in the first place. it;s called , covert undercover imformation gathering what do you expect them to do walk about with union jack suits on blowin on a trumpet

I know where you are coming from, and of course if they were on a covert operation they yes they needed to 'dress the part', but that doesnt mean that whatever was done was right.

Why do we in this country think that no matter what our soldiers say and do is right and whatever the Iraqis do must be wrong. Our lot can be in the wrong and make mistakes too. Just look at Blair, hes one big mistake.

Originally posted by Abdul
depoix

I have no wish to upset you, but I'm confused as to how my post has disappointed you so much. I have already mentioned on page 1 of this thread that I understood the reasons why the British soldiers had to be rescued.

I agree that British soldiers have not been as gung-ho as their American counterparts, but it doesn't change my view that British soliders should not be in Iraq anyway.

And we still don't know why two British soldiers were working undercover, and shot an Iraqi policeman at a checkpoint. its possible that the policeman who was shot was one of the corrupt ones that infiltrated the police force,we dont know,but if a genuine officer had pulled them at the check point and checked their id,s then obviously they would have been allowed to pass through the check point,if on the other hand the officer became agitated and started shouting that the two men were british soldiers,then he has comprimised their position,hence he was shot,to silence him whilst the soldiers prepared to evacuate their position,a real police man would have understood why they were there and allowed them to carry on through the check point,he would not have brought their position in to public knowledge if he was a loyal supporter of the government

Originally posted by depoix
its possible that the policeman who was shot was one of the corrupt ones that infiltrated the police force,we dont know,but if a genuine officer had pulled them at the check point and checked their id,s then obviously they would have been allowed to pass through the check point,if on the other hand the officer became agitated and started shouting that the two men were british soldiers,then he has comprimised their position,hence he was shot,to silence him whilst the soldiers prepared to evacuate their position,a real police man would have understood why they were there and allowed them to carry on through the check point,he would not have brought their position in to public knowledge if he was a loyal supporter of the government

Unfortunately, as we aren't aware of the full facts of the case, your opinions are based on assumptions only.

How about if the the British soldiers dressed as Arabs in order to plant a large bomb in a crowded marketplace? The bomb could then be detonated by remote control, killing scores of civilians, and subsequently get blamed on whoever the current favoured enemy is? Again, this opinion is based on assumption only.

if we are delving into the realms of fantasy i will cease to put any more posts on this thread to you,as a british citizen i thought you may have had a little more respect for what the british armed forces are trying to achieve

i honestly believe our troops should not be there, but as im not a politician my opinion counts for nothing but i will say that i believe that the british army are doing the best they can to resolve the situation over there.

as for blowing things up its possible that what was found was standard equipment for an undercover patrol to be carrying,after all its not against the law over there for a man to carry a gun,but there has been no clamp down or weapon siezures instigated by the armed forces, they have let the man in the street carry on as normal when a complete dissarmament could stop a lot of terrorists carrying weapons as an every day occurance and passing check points without hinderance

Originally posted by deadgobby
you can get your black turban on and join them;would you be as indignant if they where paki troops getting burned and stoned??

Oh dear:( . . . It is always best to keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot - then to open it and prove it beyond all doubt.

Deadgobby, more like deadthicky. Go get yourself an education - and whilst you're at it - a personality wouldn't go amiss.

You are an absolute disgrace.:gag:

Originally posted by depoix
if we are delving into the realms of fantasy i will cease to put any more posts on this thread to you,as a british citizen i thought you may have had a little more respect for what the british armed forces are trying to achieve

i honestly believe our troops should not be there, but as im not a politician my opinion counts for nothing but i will say that i believe that the british army are doing the best they can to resolve the situation over there.

as for blowing things up its possible that what was found was standard equipment for an undercover patrol to be carrying,after all its not against the law over there for a man to carry a gun,but there has been no clamp down or weapon siezures instigated by the armed forces, they have let the man in the street carry on as normal when a complete dissarmament could stop a lot of terrorists carrying weapons as an every day occurance and passing check points without hinderance

OK depoix, point taken.

Although we're probably not going to know the full truth of the story for a while yet, your opinion does sound plausible and I should say that what I wrote above in the previous post isn't my personal opinion, but a 'what if' scenario.

I suppose where we do agree is that things are going to get much worse for everyone involved in the conflict; military and civilian alike.

Originally posted by Abdul
OK depoix, point taken.

Although we're probably not going to know the full truth of the story for a while yet, your opinion does sound plausible and I should say that what I wrote above in the previous post isn't my personal opinion, but a 'what if' scenario.

I suppose where we do agree is that things are going to get much worse for everyone involved in the conflict; military and civilian alike. you are right mate, and i salute you for an honest answer,but i can not see this thing bieng over by christmas or even next year, mr.bush does not want to lose face,even at the cost of civilian and military lives,it is going to cost many lives and millions of pounds to satisfy this mans ego

My boyfriend was there from October-April this year, i dont think anyone can say anything about it other than the brave people like my bloke who have been there, lived in the hell!!

The British Army are told if their lives are in danger(or think it is!) they are alowed to shoot, this is obviously what happened here, and when the Soliders climbed out of the warrier and were burning and STILL people through petrol bombs and other things at them, what do you expect them to do?? They have to shoot!!!

For gods sake bring our lads back home and get them out of this hellhole!!!!

Blair is to blame for this!!!!!! he should try living in my blokes shoes for a day (when he was in Iraq) or even send his son's there, im sure then he would bring the troops straight home!!!

Blair!!! :rant: :rant: :rant: