I have notice recently,a number of threads always resort to arguments about the class divide ?.

Obviously some people have a problem with the lower classes, and feel the need to put them down whenever the chance arises

Or vice versa too maybe?

Especially over the housing and areas of sheffield...

Originally posted by qazitory
Especially over the housing and areas of sheffield...

Coming from Mr "I need my degree to afford to live in Fulwood"....

Class is a pointless way of stereotyping people. Why do we need to put people into a class?

Here's a topic: Is money the root of all evil?

Originally posted by Funky Dave
Class is a pointless way of stereotyping people. Why do we need to put people into a class?

Here's a topic: Is money the root of all evil?

Obviously not - religion is more to blame. Look at all the wars and terrorists that are as a direct result of religion.

Being quite anti-religion anyway I'll agree with you on that one t020. :o:o:o

I have notice recently,a number of threads always resort to arguments about the class divide ?.

I've noticed that too... I wonder which member(s) are guilty of this? :mad:

Originally posted by Pauly-Plumba
Being quite anti-religion anyway I'll agree with you on that one t020. :o:o:o No T020, religion doesn't cause wars - intolerance does.

You seem to have more than your fair share of intolerance. Is that why you are surrounded by flame wars? :D :help: :help:

;)

Originally posted by t020
Or vice versa too maybe?

Yes I agree it's not a one sided argument.but there does seem to be more of a negative vibe towards what people see as the working classes.

Ive seen alot of comments that refer to working classes and it more often than not followed by the rumour that they live on the Manor.

Also that the working classes are all Manual workers or unskilled,and perhaps to a certain degree,uneducated.
I see myself as being working class,but I dont see myself as being manual labour or unskilled,nor to I see myself as uneducated.

I dont live on the manor either,yes I live on a housing estate but I also live what i would see a comfortable life.
My family is provided for,I own a car(taxed,tested and insured)and I work fulltime.
My wife doesnt have to work as we can afford for her not to, granted we do not have a long gravel drive in a leafy suburb,but we dont want that.

If the arguments used are just opinions,these opinions are your right as we all have the right to cast our opinion,but I think it goes a little deeper than that sometimes.

Well said tango2. I think we are more and more living in a society where class is difficult to define. When did I stop being working class and become middle class (according to other people's value judgements)? Is the definition of class based on someone's job or where they live or their accent? Or is it more to do with some indefinable is he one of us type of judgements?

Am I middle class because I have a professional job, or because I live in my own house with a car in the drive or because I have an indistinguishable, non-regional accent? What about when I lived in a terraced house and worked as a postman? I presume using the class thing I was working class. Then I was a student then a poorly paid graduate trainee but I still lived in a terraced house. Did I suddenly wake up and declare 'Look at me, I'm in the middle classes'? I don't think so.

I think my point to all this is that the lines between classes are too blurred for anyone to be able to define someone by class. The days when the working classes wore flat caps, the middle classes wore bowlers and the upper classes wore whatever they wanted are, thankfully, long gone.

I too have referred to the 'working class' in some of my previous posts. As I am a manual worker and live in Heeley, I must surely fit into this category, if there really is one.

It is, in my opinion, just a convenient outdated term that we sometimes still use when refering to people. Being educated (or not) has nothing to do with it.

I am quite comfortable at being categorised in this way, if that is what people want to do. You are what you are, and will be whatever you want to become, in my opinion.

Regrettably, I left school without any formal qualifications at the age of 15, but am well educated insomuch that I always make sure I sign up for a college night-school course each autumn, and have managed to get several good qualifications in this way, particularly in the Spanish language.

Working class, middle class - what the hell does it matter in this day and age.

You're all arguing about nothing I'm afraid.

Originally posted by tango2
I have notice recently,a number of threads always resort to arguments about the class divide ?.

Obviously some people have a problem with the lower classes, and feel the need to put them down whenever the chance arises

Yep tango ,unfortunately there will always be those who feel for whatever reason they are superior to the rest of us,be it more money,bigger house,faster car or better job.

these people are sad and pathetic,probably have few mates and their high status in life is compensated for by inferior performances in other departments ;)

in the end you have to feel pity for these blinkered biggots so remember the phrase that pays

"its understanding that makes a person like me tolerate a person like them"

I agree Max

What do people see as being un-educated,to me if you can read and write,have an understanding of maths you are educated.
If you cant read and write you are un-educated,i dont feel you have to go to university to become educated,you take that road to further your education.

In the past and in the present we have had a number of MPs that have come from 'working class backgrounds' what catergory would these people fall into ?.
How many of them now live in the more afluent areas of cities ?.

One therory could be,unless you actually decend from Royalty or the gentry of old england,we are all the same.
The only difference is some have more money and live in better houses.

If a dog is born in a stable,it doesnt make it a horse.

Define middle and working class?

Originally posted by tango2
In the past and in the present we have had a number of MPs that have come from 'working class backgrounds' what category would these people fall into ?.

True o wise one.

I know of one minister, who is also a privvy councillor, who lives in the same house on Quarry Vale Road from where he was married many, many years ago. Working class or middle class? I dare anyone to call him middle class to his face.

I don't mind being called working class it's what I am and I wouldn't want to be anything else. What does bother me though is being lumped in with work shy dole scummers, they aren't working class, they don't even work!!

Pigeon-holing anyone into a category of any sort is very foolish IMHO, because that implies that a person is not capable of changing their outlook, their education, their wealth, their health, their location, their accent(!)............

Everyone is unique - if you're not happy with any aspect of your life then make a picture of how you would like your life to look (long gravel drive or not) and then start making moves to get there.

It's not your fault who you are - it is your fault if you stay that way. Things can get better because you can get better. Learn to weld - learn to calypso - let your hair down and LIVE YOUR LIFE today like it was your last day on earth.

Just a thought! forgive my ramblings if they make no sense to you - this outlook works for me - your mileage may differ!

I don't understand the need for classes unless you want to put people into a group and dis' them... shows a complete lack of desire to understand people IMHO. :thumbsup:

Working class is someone who works. Middle class is someone who does not work and has servants. Upper class are the royalty and lords n ladies.

It doesn't matter what job you have, or if you are self employed and rolling in it.....if you work in any way, then you are working class.

This is true.but i recently saw a statement on here,claiming that where you live will determine the outcome of your children.
That to me is total crap,the chances of my children living in S5 becoming joy riders is no greater than children in Ecclesall becomming coke heads.

We all make our own choices

I chose to live where I live,not for economic reasons but purely because I wanted to live there.

Despite what t020 may say. He is and always will be working class like most Sheffielders.

His parents are working class, he'll be working class.
Middle class as i'd see it defined is those born into money and can afford not to work. I doubt t020 will be able to do that.
He's said in the pas his parents work.... I'd say they too are working class.

I have no problem with working class (I'm a member) nor do I have a problem with middle class (and I know some).

The problem with people from these so called 'affluent' areas is that they percieve themselves to be Middle Class when in fact they are as working class as the rest of us.

I remember t020 once saying that Woriking class being defined as those who live on council estates in unskilled jobs.
Well is a police officer an unskilled job? Is this not professional?
I know a police officer who lives on a council estate and hasn't ever been to uni (hense unskilled). I also know a police officer who lives in fulwood and studied law at university (skilled).

So it's all relative!

Originally posted by Classic Rock
Define middle and working class?

good question rocky

the truth is the class system thought long to be dead is perpetuated in the minds of those who need to stand out from the rest of us,they lay awake at night im sure worrying about the fact that they know in their own warped little way they are better but no one gives them credit for it.

since leaving school in 79 (5 o levels in hand) ive worked in many service industries both private and public.

ive worked with royalty,diplomats both british and foriegn and captains of industry,all i might add were really nice people.

they have it they know they have it and dont feel the need to ram it down your throat,you can only respect an attitude like that. theres no class system in operation in the very place you would expect it to be alive and kicking amongst these people.they never felt the urge to remind you now and again that you were a lower form of life than they were and in most cases were truly grateful for the job you provided.

so basically the people responsible for some of the posts praising themselves and their way of life as superior to the rest of us havent got the first god damn clue what they are talking about.

ignore them,they really are as ive said before,pathetic.

and what they fail to mention is they sit sweating at the end of the month wondering how to pay off all the credit cards, and loans theyve taken out to maintain this perfect existance



i will exclude my comments from anyone in the medical profession, who in my opinion deserve as much cash and big houses and cars as they can get for the job they do,and to whom im erternaly grateful for my 7 year old son,who would not be 7 now but for the efforts of the staff at the childrens hospital...nice one Dr Bhat
:thumbsup:

Class is as much a personal state of mind as anything else. For example, give me £10million and I wouldn't have to work again, but I would always be working class because of the views and feeling I hold. My kids would be middle class by definition, but ultimately their class would be definied by their views and outlook.

The worst offenders of class divide, in my opinion and experience , are those who feel they have crossed a divide. This always creates snobbery and arrogance, which ever way the divide has been crossed. It's a state of mind.

BTW, we are homeowners, have two cars and both earn above average salaries in professional careers. We live it what is classed by upmystreet.com as a blue collar area (stupid or what?) and I'm working class.

Originally posted by rinty
Class is as much a personal state of mind as anything else. For example, give me £10million and I wouldn't have to work again, but I would always be working class because of the views and feeling I hold. My kids would be middle class by definition, but ultimately their class would be definied by their views and outlook.

The worst offenders of class divide, in my opinion and experience , are those who feel they have crossed a divide. This always creates snobbery and arrogance, which ever way the divide has been crossed. It's a state of mind.

BTW, we are homeowners, have two cars and both earn above average salaries in professional careers. We live it what is classed by upmystreet.com as a blue collar area (stupid or what?) but I'm working class.
Well said that man!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Well said that man!

Thank you - are rare moment of clarity on my part ;)

Originally posted by alert_bri
Pigeon-holing anyone into a category of any sort is very foolish IMHO, because that implies that a person is not capable of changing their outlook, their education, their wealth, their health, their location, their accent(!)............

Everyone is unique - if you're not happy with any aspect of your life then make a picture of how you would like your life to look (long gravel drive or not) and then start making moves to get there.

It's not your fault who you are - it is your fault if you stay that way. Things can get better because you can get better. Learn to weld - learn to calypso - let your hair down and LIVE YOUR LIFE today like it was your last day on earth.

Just a thought! forgive my ramblings if they make no sense to you - this outlook works for me - your mileage may differ!



why do i get the impression your trying to sell something. that lot sounds like its striaght from a marketing manual

the thread isnt about improving yourself or being happy where you are in life.

i live on parson cross and im happy, some people think im a lower form of life because i live there

its about the attitude of people towards others

That's a thing though, if you come from a council estate, people think you'll rob them as soon as look at them, it's probably the same for them as lives on the Manor or the likes of Burngreave/Pitsmoor.

Then again you can't read the Star without there being some toerag off Burngreave being in the courts section for some crime or other so they're their own worst enemies.

The point I'm making though is that people tend to tar everyone off council estates with the same brush, even I've done it at times.

i live on parson cross and im happy, some people think im a lower form of life because i live there
I certainly don't think of you are a lower form of life because you live there! I don't know you other than the way you treat me and others here on the Forum...

I'm the youngest of 5 kids, dad owned a scrap yard and mum worked most her life to help feed us. I enjoy earning a living and so will my kids - My mum always said there are good and bad people in every race & I think that sums up class too!

Sorry if that sounds like marketing speak to you Gizmo but as I said - you can take it or leave it - you reap the rewards of your attitude to life and other people IMHO. :thumbsup:

Then again you can't read the Star without there being some toerag off Burngreave being in the courts section for some crime or other so they're their own worst enemies.

But surely the self appointed higher classes have criminals as well ?.
This is not an excuse for crime,but im sure they also have a high percentage of bent mortgage advisors and crooked solicitors.

Please note I am not accusing all solicitors and mortgage advisors of being crooked,,,,phew close one.

What im saying is crime is not an exclusive right for us ignorant peasants,please excuse me while I refill the coal scuttle and feed the pigeons,,,,lol

In an ideal world we should put aside these differences as we are no different regardles of how big your house is.
Sadly we all know this world only exsists in fiction,and if all us oiks were not out blagging wot would the solicitors do ?.

At least where I live if my house is turned over I will more than likely find out who did it before the police do.

Originally posted by tango2


But surely the self appointed higher classes have criminals as well ?.
This is not an excuse for crime,but im sure they also have a high percentage of bent mortgage advisors and crooked solicitors.

Please note I am not accusing all solicitors and mortgage

I'm sure that not long ago I read about some research which concluded or suggested that most crime (not sure how they defined/categorised crime) was committed by "white collar" workers, i.e. people doing insurance fraud etc. Anyone else remember seeing this?

Originally posted by Dug
I'm sure that not long ago I read about some research which concluded or suggested that most crime (not sure how they defined/categorised crime) was committed by "white collar" workers, i.e. people doing insurance fraud etc. Anyone else remember seeing this?


Here you go Dug, follow the link for more details

http://money.guardian.co.uk/scamsandfraud/story/0,13802,1040538,00.html

Meet criminals who cost UK £14bn: the middle class
A middle class crimewave is sweeping Britain, with undetected and often unreported forgery and fraud costing up to £14bn a year - nearly five times that of burglary.

The Guardian website
Friday September 12, 2003

Top 10 'white collar' crimes


Paid cash to avoid tax 34% / 54%

Kept money when overchanged 32% / 30%

Taken something from work 18% / 28%

Avoided paying TV licence 11% / 24%

Wrongly used identity cards 11% / 20%

Padded an insurance claim 7% / 22%

Asked official to break the rules 6% / 28%

Claimed wrongly for refunds 5% / 17%

Not disclosed faulty goods 8% / 13%

Deliberately misclaimed benefits 3% / 10%

Even today I had a look at another thread not related to this one,guess what ?.

Yes it managed to stray into the class subject,how strange

which thread tango2?

As I said - what use is class distinction? :confused:

It's the Naff House names thread in General chat!#

The root couse... you guessed it - t020

tango2/Abdul - thanks, I was going to have a quick search for the articles but you've saved me the work!

Originally posted by Classic Rock
Working class is someone who works. Middle class is someone who does not work and has servants. Upper class are the royalty and lords n ladies.

It doesn't matter what job you have, or if you are self employed and rolling in it.....if you work in any way, then you are working class. That's a perfect description Classic Rock. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people around who think that they should include "management" to elevate themselves to middle class.

Originally posted by Tony
That's a perfect description Classic Rock. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people around who think that they should include "management" to elevate themselves to middle class.

No - classic is defining upper middle classes. Management and professionals are not working class despite working for a living - they are middle class, albeit a lower form than those rich enough to not have to work. By Classics definition, a working class man on the manor who won the lottery would never have to work again and would be able to employ servants - but this would not suddenly make him middle class, so Classics definition is very much flawed.

A real life example would be Prince Nasseem. He is rich enough to never have to work again, so does that make him middle class!? I think not. Conversely, consider the Hamiltons (Neil and Christine). They have had to make enormous amounts of often demeaning TV appearances to earn themselves more income after Neil was declared bankrupt a few years back. Does this make them working class?! Don't make me laugh.

There you go again,everytime you make a reference to the working classes you refer to the Manor.
Perhaps you have a secret desire to live there,or maybe its the only area you can see through your blinkers,,,,lol

Originally posted by max
True o wise one.

I know of one minister, who is also a privvy councillor, who lives in the same house on Quarry Vale Road from where he was married many, many years ago. Working class or middle class? I dare anyone to call him middle class to his face.


Ah - Forum member(no posts) Mr Richard Caborn no less, My Dad lives nr there.

I'd call him middle class, larging it up in Oz for the Rugby World cup on tax payers money, Royal Box for the FA Cup, nice job for a working class lad.:thumbsup:

Unsurprisingly, perhaps, I think class still plays a vital part in modern society. I'll have to see if i can still find the links, but according to a Guardian poll last year/year before, 67% of people described themeselves as working-class - the highest number ever in such a poll. Also, a similar study found that less people than ever before are moving 'between classes', for all the ohatcherite/blairite talk of a 'classless society' we are actually further away from it than ever.

There is an important question over those we refer to as 'middle-class' tho, and I'm not happy about including many of them in the working-class. for me, a marxist, class is about your 'relationship to the means of production' (sorry), ie whether you have to work for a living, or have other people doing the work for you. Now in the case of the 'middle-class' - ie those middlie-managers who haven't quite got enough to not work (but will probly retire in there early 50's) but who do very nicely thankyou, and, more importantly, hold a position of major power and influence over those that they manage - their interests are not the same (in basic class terms) as the people whom they manage. They are caught between the workers and the real bosses, and normally take the latters side (cos they're arselikkin gets).

Then there's the whole question of teachers, social workers etc, people who must work for a living, but who again, hold positions where they exert quite a degree of (at least potential) social control over the lives of other people. With them, there interests are not exactly the same as 'proper' (for want of a better word) working-class*, because they have far more of an interest in maintaining the status quo - kinda like coppers, but nowt like so bad.

Why does class crop in threads all over the show? Well, cos its still key and still massively determines much of what happens in our lives.

*not that all w-c people have exactly the same interests, just overwhelmingly so.

Class has nothing to do with money or wealth

The aristocracy are often very poor, living in grace and favour apartments, but they are still the aristocracy.

The bin man can win £20million on the lottery but he is still working class

Class is also not defined by whether you work or don't work, those same aristocrats share "not working" with the handful of unemployed we still have hanging around

Technically, according to current professional opinion, class is determined by what you work as - you will have heard of C1s and C2s etc for instance.

There is a sliding scale from A to ? something.

I think the aristocracy are the As at the top.

Professional employment requiring up to 7 years of Higher Education - Surgeons and Lawyers etc, come much higher up than say bank clerks, but bank clerks feature higher up than road sweepers.

There are however one or two factors that interfere with this - and none of them concern your home address - the main one being your level of education.

If you are a qualified GP but prefer to sweep roads then you would be a middle class woman who was doing a job out of her usual range, you wouldnt be working class all of a sudden.

I forget the name of the man who devised the system but it is basic GCSE level sociology (or whatever) someone can easily find it for us.

that system doesnt actually recognise the aristocxracy, or if it does, subsumes them within 'top managerial/professional'

So A = big company owner/senior civil servant/judge etc
B = high up professional, headteacher, lawyer etc
C1 = skilled working-class - ordinary teacher, draughtsman, some engineers
C2 - semi-skiled working-class - most engineers, printers etc
D - unskilled working-class (fairly self-explanatory)
E - scum. well, its not what was written, but its what was meant.

tbh, i think it's an all but useless set of categories, dowesnt explain much, and it becomes somewhat easier to move between categories (social mobility, that was the phrase i couldnt remeber before...)

Commie Pig, your comments about who does the work etc. are nonsense, have you been to an East european country? No f....er did anything for about 50 years. A relative of mine was very high up in the heirarchy of the Sheffield steelworkers unions and travelled to these places i.e. Soviet Union and was devastated because it showed the system doesnt work. He couldnt see either that union leaders wearing suits, travelling abroad at the expense of shopfloor workers ,was any different to somebody called a boss with a nice car and a suit.

Ive lived in places that would make you sh.t yoursef, but I dont care about anyones class if they are o.k


GEEEERRROOOONNNNIMO

not sure what you mean I'm afraidf geronimo. IF, as I assume, you take me for an apologist for the old USSR, you're very wrong.

imo, that, and the rest of the Eastern Bloc, China, Cuba, etc, are/were state capitalist systems, same as over here, but with the state as the one boss (to put it crudely).

Libertarian marxism (what i fancy) hasn't had a decent crack at it yet.

Victorian middle class saw themselves as facilitating equality of opportunity by enabling the working classes to realise their abilities. These reforms mean that today we live in an open society in which we all have the potential to become middle-class.

As a social category, the 'middling sort' always referred to a broad band of the population, but this diversity increased in the nineteenth century. Alongside the businessmen associated with the growth of manufacturing, the period saw the increased numbers of small entrepreneurs. Shopkeepers and merchants who undertook to transport and retail the fruits of industry and empire. The increased scale of industry and oversees trade, together with the expansion of empire fuelled the proliferation of commerce and finance such as banks, insurance companies, shipping and railways. This system needed administrating by clerks, managers and salaried professionals. The expansion of cities, towns and the economy produced new spaces that needing regulating and running. The Victorian period witnessed the massive expansion of local government and the centralised state, providing occupations for a vast strata of civil servants, teachers, doctors, lawyers and government officials as well as the clerks and assistants which helped these institutions and services to operate.

Such diversity makes a satisfactory definition of the middle-class impossible. There is no clear relationship to the means of production. Although there were some individuals that accumulated spectacular wealth in the nineteenth century through entrepreneurial activity, there were many more businessmen who scraped a living and many who worked for wages as public servants, managers or clerks. The economic boundary of the 'middle-class' was not clear. Some members of the middle-class used their wealth to buy land and stately homes, becoming as rich, if not richer than the aristocracy. At the same time, many members of the skilled working class could earn as much if not more than some members of the lower middle-class.


The success of the middle-classes in the Victorian period can be seen in their ability to universalise a set of principles based on individuality and progress. In moving from a society based on rank and privilege to one based on free exchange, the very idea that an individual, through hard work, thrift and self reliance, could achieve social and economic success provided an equalising principle. But, whilst the idea of social mobility was, and still is, central to legitimising the idea of a market economy, many critics of industrialisation, such as Thomas Carlyle, feared that the community was threatened by the aggressive individualism of some or the frustrated aspirations of others.

A sense of social order was formulated in the mixing of political economy, paternalism and evangelical religion which ascribed specific roles to groups of people. The working classes were encouraged to improve but they were also reminded they should be content with their lot as labourers. Whilst women's work, either for wages or to ensure the success of the family business, might be essential, the idealised wife and mother was prescribed the responsibility for cultivating morality and spirituality in the home as a corrective to the worst excesses of competitive industry.

Basicly the Middle class idea was created by the better off,to keep the less better in there place,and giving them something to work to (in their dreams).



However it is claimed today that the Middle Class is the birthright of these people,b******ks its all in there heads.

Ill say it again,a dog can be born in a stable but it doesnt make it a horse.

Example:so called middle class parents,they have a son,is he middle class ?,does all his spoon fed ideals make him an automatic member to the elite ?.




If you work you are working class,if you dont work you are lucky.


END OF

Will probably get knocked into another thread for this discussion but it is meant to be a forum yeah?
Im guessing you are maybe, social worker, teacher or one of the people who claims dole money provided by people who work so you can go on big marches all over the country?
Apologies if youre winding everybody up and you actually work 40 hrs per week


Geronimo

Apology accepted (tho its only 37 hrs - I am only on about 1/2 the national average wage tho....)

Tango,

Did you wash the dictionary/thesaurus down with some fizzy orange juice? for gods sake with no broadband connection at my end either.

Commie,

Just a bit suspicious as most of the left wing people that I know these days are not what you would expect i.e. hard done to workers. Strangely enough they tend to be lower middle class sons/daughters of teachers and social workers probation officers etc. i.e. anyone who doesnt get their hands dirty and is entitled to unlimited sick leave it seems.
Whereas myself and freinds, Joiners, Electricians , Plumbers, bricklayers just get on with it and earn LOADSA MONEY enough in fact to buy some other houses to rent out to people who dont believe in capitalism.


GERONIMO

Originally posted by geronimo
Commie,

Just a bit suspicious as most of the left wing people that I know these days are not what you would expect i.e. hard done to workers. Strangely enough they tend to be lower middle class sons/daughters of teachers and social workers probation officers etc. i.e. anyone who doesnt get their hands dirty and is entitled to unlimited sick leave it seems.
Whereas myself and freinds, Joiners, Electricians , Plumbers, bricklayers just get on with it and earn LOADSA MONEY enough in fact to buy some other houses to rent out to people who dont believe in capitalism.


GERONIMO

I love it. Gimme more :thumbsup:

Originally posted by tango2
However it is claimed today that the Middle Class is the birthright of these people,b******ks its all in there heads.

Ill say it again,a dog can be born in a stable but it doesnt make it a horse.

Example:so called middle class parents,they have a son,is he middle class ?,does all his spoon fed ideals make him an automatic member to the elite ?.


If you work you are working class,if you dont work you are lucky.

END OF

Being born into a middle class family does make you middle class. Class is often strongly dictated by family background/ 'breeding'. Also, the middle classes are hardly the "elite". :lol: I think you're confusing higher earning, salaried, white collared professionals with the aristocracy there.

Your last point about working = working class is wrong. Professional and managerial jobs are one of the main influences of being middle class. Yes, they still have to work for a living, but they can do so with much more choice, power, and money more easily than a working class person could. Also, as Belle pointed out (although I already had), a binman could win the lottery and thus not have to work again, but would still be working class.

And I will say again

These reforms mean that today we live in an open society in which we all have the potential to become middle-class.


would we want to ? not me.

Originally posted by tango2
And I will say again

These reforms mean that today we live in an open society in which we all have the potential to become middle-class.


would we want to ? not me.

So you think that being a lawyer, doctor, etc etc, is working class, but a binman who wins the lottery is suddenly middle class?! What planet are you on exactly?

PS. Quote isn't entirely relevant but used more to specifically direct my response.

Originally posted by t020
So you think that being a lawyer, doctor, etc etc, is working class, but a binman who wins the lottery is suddenly middle class?! What planet are you on exactly?

PS. Quote isn't entirely relevant but used more to specifically direct my response.

Planet reality,unlike you

Why do you have a fixation with Binmen and lottery wins ?

Originally posted by tango2
Planet reality,unlike you

Why do you have a fixation with Binmen and lottery wins ?

Because by your definition of class, which is based purely on finances/ having to work, a binman winning the lottery would become middle class - which is highly laughable really.

By the way, with your somewhat simple definition of working class = those who work (be it doctors, binmen, etc), where exactly does that leave benefit fraudsters??? Middle class? Aristocracy?! Get real.

Speaking as a bin man who has just won the lottery. I would like to complain about the last posting. Its lucky for you that Im not also from an ethnic minority or else you really would suffer....... oh yeah almost forgot Im a Native Indian.......GEEEERONNNIMO

Can anyone explain to me what the hell 'class' distinction is necessary for?

What useful function does it serve?

Originally posted by Classic Rock
Define middle and working class?


well i consider myself to be a monkey within society - so if anyone figures out where my standing lies, please reply. Thank you all ever so much.

Originally posted by t020
So you think that being a lawyer, doctor, etc etc, is working class, but a binman who wins the lottery is suddenly middle class?! What planet are you on exactly?

PS. Quote isn't entirely relevant but used more to specifically direct my response.

No it means you have the chance to better yourself, i.e. someone who is working class can go out and train to be a doctor. Therefore can become middle class. It doesnt necessary concern money, probably more to do with status.

Chalice,

I cant figure out whether you are standing, lying or swinging about in a flaming uniroyal crossply.
Heres a nice banana , now say what you really mean oo..oo..oo..oo..oo

Originally posted by t020
where exactly does that leave benefit fraudsters??? Middle class? Aristocracy?! Get real.


Is benefit fraud a job ?

I didnt think so,and commiting it does not determine a class.

This is not meant to be controversial, I was just offering some info about the classifications of our society as perceived by sociologists etc. Here is a link that explains where I was at - the second one in particular of the two on this webpage (http://www.herts.ac.uk/natsci/ethics/social_groups.htm)

Benefit frauds more than a job, its more like a vocation for certain elements of this society. After all how else could you get paid to breed ? Unless that is you are a stud animal

Originally posted by qazitory
No it means you have the chance to better yourself, i.e. someone who is working class can go out and train to be a doctor. Therefore can become middle class. It doesnt necessary concern money, probably more to do with status.

You can't jump a class in your own lifetime - class is mainly inherited, passed on by the previous generation and their 'status'. Someone born into a working class family will always be working class, although they may become rich and their kids would be regarded as middle class.

Originally posted by tango2
Is benefit fraud a job ?

I didnt think so,and commiting it does not determine a class.

But YOU were definining class as those having to work!

See below:

Originally posted by tango2

If you work you are working class,if you dont work you are lucky.

END OF


So people who sit about all day watching Trisha while claiming benefits - they don't work, so by your silly definition of class, where do they fall?????

Originally posted by Belle
This is not meant to be controversial, I was just offering some info about the classifications of our society as perceived by sociologists etc. Here is a link that explains where I was at - the second one in particular of the two on this webpage (http://www.herts.ac.uk/natsci/ethics/social_groups.htm)

I pretty much agree with that definition, though I do think upper middle class should be reserved only for those who are born into really wealthy families who own vast estates and land.

Originally posted by Belle
This is not meant to be controversial, I was just offering some info about the classifications of our society as perceived by sociologists etc. Here is a link that explains where I was at - the second one in particular of the two on this webpage (http://www.herts.ac.uk/natsci/ethics/social_groups.htm)
Oh, I see it's useful for marketing... :loopy:

So far then, class distinction is necessary and useful for socioligists... now can someone please explain what sociologists are useful for? :confused:

Originally posted by t020
You can't jump a class in your own lifetime - class is mainly inherited, passed on by the previous generation and their 'status'. Someone born into a working class family will always be working class, although they may become rich and their kids would be regarded as middle class.

Right,you are born into a working class family,but you become rich this means you are still working class.
You have kids,they are born into a working class family,so they are working class.
So how can they be regarded as middle class?

Originally posted by t020
But YOU were definining class as those having to work!

See below:




So people who sit about all day watching Trisha while claiming benefits - they don't work, so by your silly definition of class, where do they fall?????

So where did I state have to work ?

I never did,I never mentioned people claiming benefits,you did that

Well, having done some contracting work in an office full of sociologists I can honestly say that they put every effort into having meetings and drinking coffee and smoking roll ups and not into doing what they were supposed to be doing i.e. looking after people less fortunate than themselves.
It seems to be the degree to get when you are too thick to do anything else.

Originally posted by tango2
So where did I state have to work ?

I never did,I never mentioned people claiming benefits,you did that

You said anyone who works is working class (even professionals and managers). I asked where does that leave people on benefits who don't have to work for a living??? Will I get an answer????

But nontheless, if you fill in the census etc, those are still afaik the classification used

You dont have to like it and you can call for a new one, or even write your own, but that is currently in use

I find class confusing

I have been mainly what most people would think of as "middle class" othersise defined as a bit posh and went to University, all of my life, apart from the time nearly 20 years ago when I was living in a bedsit with a husband that Steelblade would probably call a Scummer

(not a very delightful term)

On some scales women are judged according to their husband's occupation

I prefer just to be a "belle" really

But I do know that lots of people are judgemental in all ways

as has been said already this week on another thread

lots of people judge you according to your size or religion or age or race or sexuality or salary or occupation or partner or accent

......I just wish they wouldnt

Cue T020 with his So????

Originally posted by t020
You said anyone who works is working class (even professionals and managers). I asked where does that leave people on benefits who don't have to work for a living??? Will I get an answer????


Yes I did say,(and still say that in my opinion )people that work are working class.
I never used the term have to work,nor did I refer to people claiming benefits as benefit fraudsters (You did).
At no point did I asume that people that watch trisha all day are on benefits,lol (You did).

Could be another topic for a thread.

Originally posted by Belle

lots of people judge you according to your size or religion or age or race or sexuality or salary or occupation or partner or accent

......I just wish they wouldnt

Cue T020 with his So????

:D I wish I could win the lottery, so what?

Seriously though, people have always been and will always be judgemental - some more openly than others, some may deny doing it, others may do it sub-consciously, but it seems to be natural human behaviour. There is no point in pretending that class boundaries exist, because they do, have do for a long time, and probably will remain to do so. Thats why people who have made claims like "anyone who works is working class" is either purely delluded, or just doesn't like the fact that a social hierarchy still remains in society, based mainly on occupation, parents occupation, education level, wealth, etc etc etc.

By the way Trisha is not on all day,,,,lol

Originally posted by tango2
Yes I did say,(and still say that in my opinion )people that work are working class.
I never used the term have to work,nor did I refer to people claiming benefits as benefit fraudsters (You did).
At no point did I asume that people that watch trisha all day are on benefits,lol (You did).

Could be another topic for a thread.

You still haven't answered the question so I will try a 3rd time. By your definition of people who work (in any occupation, no matter how highly paid or high status) belonging to the working class, what class do people who don't work and claim benefits fall into????

well you refer to them as benefit fraudsters, i say they are the unemployed,and dont they fall into a category all of there own in the class system.

Originally posted by tango2
well you refer to them as benefit fraudsters, i say they are the unemployed,and dont they fall into a category all of there own in the class system.

Not for me to say as I will only be labelled a snob. The one thing you can say about me is I'm honest, whether you like what I say or not. I'm not going to pretend that professionals are working class or that I come from a working class background all as some kind of inverse snobbery.

Originally posted by t020
Not for me to say as I will only be labelled a snob. The one thing you can say about me is I'm honest, whether you like what I say or not. I'm not going to pretend that professionals are working class or that I come from a working class background all as some kind of inverse snobbery.
You're labelled a snob anyway so you might as well say it!:P :D :thumbsup:

well you refer to them as benefit fraudsters, i say they are the unemployed,and dont they fall into a category all of there own in the class system.

I do A level sociology and we refer to them as underclass.

Originally posted by t020
Not for me to say as I will only be labelled a snob. The one thing you can say about me is I'm honest, whether you like what I say or not. I'm not going to pretend that professionals are working class or that I come from a working class background all as some kind of inverse snobbery.

Your honesty is to commended,and at the end of the day we are all entitled to our own opinion.

I still say Trisha aint on all day,,,lol

Originally posted by caprice
I do A level sociology and we refer to them as underclass.

Yes, I've seen that term used before. I was just interested in tango2s opinion since his class definitions somewhat differ to most other peoples/books/articles, etc.

Originally posted by t020
Not for me to say as I will only be labelled a snob. The one thing you can say about me is I'm honest, whether you like what I say or not. I'm not going to pretend that professionals are working class or that I come from a working class background all as some kind of inverse snobbery.

but you DO look down on anyone you perceive to be of a lower status in life dont you, you mention the class system exists whether we like it or not and on that point ill agree with you 100%

But why do theses so called middle classes feel the need to make all others feel inferior,what is the point in defining a person in such a way,to make sure he sits in the right seats? , keeps out of certain resturants for fear of tainting the food?

ill always accept the fact that there will people better off than me,live a more comfortable life than me, and be able to do things i never will,all power to their elbows.

what i wont accept is being labelled by people who know nothing about me

Originally posted by gizmo
but you DO look down on anyone you perceive to be of a lower status in life dont you, you mention the class system exists whether we like it or not and on that point ill agree with you 100%

But why do theses so called middle classes feel the need to make all others feel inferior,what is the point in defining a person in such a way,to make sure he sits in the right seats? , keeps out of certain resturants for fear of tainting the food?

ill always accept the fact that there will people better off than me,live a more comfortable life than me, and be able to do things i never will,all power to their elbows.

what i wont accept is being labelled by people who know nothing about me

Learn to accept it then because it will always happen. I get labelled on here all the time.

I'd just like to add my final point to this thread (hopefully).
T020, I've baited you into making numerous responses re: this whole class thing.

And although we dont and wont agree i have to admire your courage of speaking what YOU feel is correct.
Being honest and not just caving in... well done.

And I'd like to say (and this still doesn't mean we are 'mates':P ) that SheffieldForum would be less interesting without you here.

All the best!

:lol:

Thanks DB.
A lot of the time people get me wrong anyway. All I ever do is be honest and express my opinions and beliefs. Anyway, enough.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I'd just like to add my final point to this thread (hopefully).
T020, I've baited you into making numerous responses re: this whole class thing.

And although we dont and wont agree i have to admire your courage of speaking what YOU feel is correct.
Being honest and not just caving in... well done.

And I'd like to say (and this still doesn't mean we are 'mates':P ) that SheffieldForum would be less interesting without you here.

All the best!

well said that man,I agree fully

Originally posted by t020
Learn to accept it then because it will always happen. I get labelled on here all the time.

like i said i wont and i dont have to,you and i are no different as people ,our circumstances are different thats all.

and as for you getting labelled on here,i think you secretly enjoy the publicity, good on ya

Originally posted by t020
:lol:

Thanks DB.
A lot of the time people get me wrong anyway. All I ever do is be honest and express my opinions and beliefs. Anyway, enough.

Your passion for what you believe has to be admired,this thread was started to create a response.
It was not to create any hatred within the forum,the response you gave was outstanding,accurate,informed and most of all honest.
Not just single visit,make a post and leave as DB said,you did not cave in.


I think we can draw this to a close,knowing regardless of class or anything else we live in a free country.






At the end of it all if you cant cast your opinion,then what can you do

I dont think it is a free country, not in terms of what one can and cant say. Lets say its free for some and not for the majority

its free as in we can say what we want.

but in return we must have peoples views thrust upon us

Of course you cant say what you want! people are being prosecuted for it if it doesnt fit in with other peoples ideas. Is that freedom?

Well that depends on what you say,in my own experience i have found I can speek quite freely,as have many other people on this forum.

It depends on what you say? Thats freedom of speech then. Selective soundbites like the Blair 'which project'

Like I said Ive always found I can speak quite freely,Ive never been prosecuted for it.

I dont suppose that anyone cares what I think

But for what it is worth, here it is

Anyone can say anything about whatever they like, provided of course that they can find a medium prepared to let them

However, the same person cannot use another organisation, that might not agree with the statement, as legitimacy.

For example, if I were to say that babies that were born out of wedlock were doomed to hell, it might be the case that some obscure religious organisation might think that was great and want to print me in full.

However, if I was being paid as a spokesperson of errrr....the Family Planning Clinic and if they had a TV channel on which I appeared regularly, I would think it would be their right to say "As we dont agree with a word of what you have said, we no longer want you to associate yourself with us. or us with you, should you continue to say such things."

I just dont see why that is wrong.

Unless I am missing something.

You cant keep taking the money if you wont pay the price

"Queen Cliche"

See Kilroy Silk thread and many others

Everyone cares what you think I am sure. But why a paragraph for one simple point its as if youve scanned a page from some sociology book every time you open your gob. There youve got me at it now.

Nice avatar,

Is that your 2 braincells playing tiggy

Originally posted by t020
:lol:

Thanks DB.
A lot of the time people get me wrong anyway. All I ever do is be honest and express my opinions and beliefs. Anyway, enough.
I totally concur there! Honesty always the way to the best future - tempered by an open mind.

However T020, I do get the impression from your posts that you have no class at all! :D

This is a very interesting thread - can I suggest an alternative view?

I don't think that a "class system" actually really exists anymore. What we do have is a fairly complex social structure that is co-dependent on many factors including, money, income, profession, family, address, social circle, etc, etc.

Think of it like a ladder. We are all on a particular rung at any time depending on the factors above. We tend to associate with people on the same rung, and a couple of rungs up and down. We all move up and down the ladder through our life, but tend to stay around a certain circle at any one time.

It explains why the binman can win 10 million, invest it wisely, triple it and still die the “binman who won £10m”. However, his children may have all the advantages that money can bring to education and upbringing and will only ever encounter a different set of rungs on the ladder. Are they still “working class”?

Conversely, is the titled dole claimant living in a crummy rented flat (and there are lots) still able to call himself “upper class”? Are they upper class in the definition that people propose here? Of course not, but only because trying to differentiate people as a particular “class” just doesn’t work.

Our social system is far more complex than a simple 3 grades can allow, but people still insist in simplifying things to suit their personal predilections, whether it’s the snobby child of a middle manager who wants to be thought of as “middle class”, or the guilt ridden “Lord Money Bags” who opens a flower shop so that they can think of themselves as “working class”

We all come from somewhere and we should be grateful if we have a head start. We shouldn’t use it as an attempt to artificially elevate ourselves. You die with the same as you were born with.

Class is in your head – not your wallet!

Originally posted by geronimo
Nice avatar,

Is that your 2 braincells playing tiggy

I think you have gone off the point a little here,if you want to just hurl abuse at people,I suggest you start a thread for that purpose.
Instead you just enter other threads and make meaningless comments.

However as I said,its a free country and you have the right to say what you like

Originally posted by Tony
This is a very interesting thread - can I suggest an alternative view?

I don't think that a "class system" actually really exists anymore.

....snip....

Class is in your head – not your wallet!
Cracking response Tony - couldn't agree more... :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Tony
Class is in your head – not your wallet!

Exactly.

I'm sure I said that back on page 1 of this thread ;)