Killer doctor Harold Shipman has died after being found hanging in his cell, the Prison Service says. Shipman was found hanging in his cell at 0620 GMT and staff tried to resuscitate him but he was pronounced dead by a doctor at 0810 GMT - more... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3391871.stm)

Posted this in case you didn't know or wanted to discuss it...

So there is justice after all.

I don't think there will be many tears shed.

Not sure if it's justice to be honest. The daughter of one of his victims said she was upset that he took the easy way out and never showed any remorse for his actions. There are also the children and partners of all those people he was never convicted of killing - they might never know if he actually killed them now.

You would have thought the prison should have noticed him becoming more and more suicidal/depressed? People tend to reach the end of their tether before killing themselves - they don't normally get up one morning and suddenly decide this is the day. Or do they?!

...edit...
On a side note, I noticed the BBC now have a link below their "Harold Shipman found dead in cell" headline which says "Live Video - News 24 latest". What exactly could the latest news be about Harold Shipman?! "Err yes Connie, I can confirm the latest status from the prison... he's still dead."

Oh what a pity :thumbsup:

I would prefer him to have been kept alive to suffer. He killed 215 people and has been allowed to take the easy way out.

I suppose we can only be thankful that his death was probably a lot slower and more painful than the departure of his victims.

I heard on the radio that his body is now in the Medico-Legal centre in Sheffield for the post mortem.

At this stage I offer no thoughts and no judgements

But I would like to ask this one question

Q: For those of you who believe in the death penalty, I would be interested in how you feel today knowing that this mass murderer is dead.
Are you glad he is dead, because he deserved to die, or are you angry that he is dead because it didnt happen by official hands

As I say I only ask the question, there is no pre-ordained agenda here. I am merely curious.

I'm not glad he's dead, i would have preferred him serve his time and be punished. Yes he deserved to die, but he took a cowards way out rather than face justice.

Thanks DaB for your answer

Again I make no judgement and merely pose the question

Is it cowardly to kill yourself, or does it require bravery?

A very close, very dear friend of mine killed herself in 1995 in a room in my house

You will know that I suffered from guilt, remorse and extreme anger, all at once

Is that the easy way out?

I dont think I could ever bring myself to do it

Could you do it?

I dont know, I only seek to understand

Easy way out for harrold (that's the terminology I mean)
However for someone who isn't a murderer it would take a severe psychological issue (or several) to make someone go to those lengths.

Could I do it? Depends really.... you never know what life throws at you to make you do things like that.

Im curious to see how the media deal with it over the next day or so. They have a way of so obviously NOT saying the things on everyone's mind, that sometimes it becomes offensive.

Do you think he decided on suicide mainly because
1)He felt so remorseful
or
2)He felt so bad about his sentence and environment.

incidently...
relieved to hear what belle had to say.
close friend of mine killed herself recently and I know what you mean about the feelings you have e.g. anger

Originally posted by Belle
At this stage I offer no thoughts and no judgements

But I would like to ask this one question

Q: For those of you who believe in the death penalty, I would be interested in how you feel today knowing that this mass murderer is dead.
Are you glad he is dead, because he deserved to die, or are you angry that he is dead because it didnt happen by official hands

As I say I only ask the question, there is no pre-ordained agenda here. I am merely curious.

In general my position over the last year has changed and I no longer advocate the death penalty, but I shall answer anyway If that is ok?

I can't say I am sorry to hear about Shipmans death. I feel for the families who were clinging on to some hope that he may one day talk about how and why he did what he did. Shipman was never ever going to get out so he wasn't there to be reformed he was there to be punished. It now seems as though Shipman either found prison too tough to handle or felt guilt for what he had done and decided to take his own life.

It's interesting to note the sudden change in the way this is being reported. Initially, every report referred to suicide but now that the press have found out that his lawyer was appealing against conviction and that there is to be an investigation it's now 'alleged' that he committed suicide.

I find it hard to believe that he was 'assisted' in any way but there must still be that tiny doubt that there was someone else in his cell, imo.

As to his actual death, I think it's a shame that he will not be available as a guinea pig for studies into the human psyche and genetic build up. Keeping such as Shipman alive might allow future geneticists, perhaps, to determine whether there was a genetic fingerprint which could identify serious personality disorders.

I'll apologise in advance.

Robert de Niro is lined up to play Harold Shipman in a film adaptation of the serial killer's life. It's to be called "The Old Dear Hunter".

Hmmmm although amusing, I feel in pretty poor taste there Max.

Almost as bad as the T-Shirt I saw with a picture of Dr Shipman holding a can of Dr Pepper (but the can actually said Dr Shimpan instead of pepper).

Underneath the slogan said: "What's the worst that could happen".

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Hmmmm although amusing, I feel in pretty poor taste there Max.

Almost as bad as the T-Shirt I saw with a picture of Dr Shipman holding a can of Dr Pepper (but the can actually said Dr Shimpan instead of pepper).

Underneath the slogan said: "What's the worst that could happen".

I'd be very wary of being an arbiter of taste with PIMP Daddy as your logo.:D

Dont be jealous max!

You're just not cool enough to pull it off!:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Belle
Thanks DaB for your answer

Again I make no judgement and merely pose the question

Is it cowardly to kill yourself, or does it require bravery?

A very close, very dear friend of mine killed herself in 1995 in a room in my house

You will know that I suffered from guilt, remorse and extreme anger, all at once

Is that the easy way out?

I dont think I could ever bring myself to do it

Could you do it?

I dont know, I only seek to understand
I'm sorry to hear about your friend that must have been truly dreadful.

2 years ago almost to the day, a married couple who were friends of my parents committed suicide. I went through a range of emotions afterwards and still do when I think about it.

I'm not sure on the cowardly or bravery part... It kind of takes guts to actually do it, but I think it can be harsh to call it cowardly in some cases.

I think every situation is slightly different depending on what's happening in that person's life at the time. For example, someone who commits suicide may be suffering from such bad depression that they just can't see anyway out. I don't think that's cowardly, I think it's just being in a really horrible place in life where you don't think there's any help available or no hope. But I don't think it's necessarily brave either. Perhaps it's just taken as a "solution" (albeit a horribly tragic one) to a situation where no other option seems available without knowing that someone/something COULD actually help?

Of course one of the many horrible things about suicide is the person is no longer around to ask why they did it. It leaves the family and friends in a very sad place with little or no answers.

I think the psychological reasons behind taking your own life are too complex to either call it "brave" or "cowardly".

In Shipman's case maybe the thought of facing life in prison seem too cr*p to endure.

Originally posted by max
As to his actual death, I think it's a shame that he will not be available as a guinea pig for studies into the human psyche and genetic build up. Keeping such as Shipman alive might allow future geneticists, perhaps, to determine whether there was a genetic fingerprint which could identify serious personality disorders.

Interesting point max, but why do you think the problem was genetic? Didn't he have a major trauma early in life when his mother died and he ran down the road screaming (or something like that)?

If we follow your strategy through, then where will it end? IMO, genetic fingerprinting is exciting and lucrative for psychologists, psychiatrists and pharmaceutical (sp?) companies to explore, but probably not much real world use for others.

Originally posted by Abdul
Interesting point max, but why do you think the problem was genetic? Didn't he have a major trauma early in life when his mother died and he ran down the road screaming (or something like that)?

If we follow your strategy through, then where will it end? IMO, genetic fingerprinting is exciting and lucrative for psychologists, psychiatrists and pharmaceutical (sp?) companies to explore, but probably not much real world use for others.

It was only a for instance suggestion Abdul as a reason to mourn his death. The more live serial killers we have under observation, either by geneticists or other -ists, the more we will discover about thier motivation/defects/needs and, hopefully, the more we can identify them sooner.

If you read as many psychological thrillers as I, if fact you may, I don't know, you would read about the profile work done on serial killers in an effort to identify them as quickly as possible. The more data available the higher the chance of a correct profile.

Fair point, max

Psychological profiling I do understand. Perhaps I took the words genetic fingerprining a little too literally.

I think the problem with serial killers is normally psychological which is why I can't stand the press reporting the death of serial killers with jubilation. I think serial killers should be getting our sympathy more than our hatred, because there is no doubt serial killers are mentally ill.

There are different types of serial killers.
All usually have a psychological problem if you go by our standards however not all are a resulted from childhood traumas or brain defects at birth.

There is a new breed of serial killer which has been seen in recent years in the states, celebrity serial killers.

It has been suggested that due to the status being given to high profile serial killers that certain new breed serial killers aren't doing it because they have been abused as children or norn with brain defects.... it's becuase they want the so called 'glory' that the serial killer status brings. The thrill of the chase by the police and when they're finally caught the media attention.

I have several books on profiling serials killers, talking with serial killers, why some killers leav a tell tale signature on purpose and what creates a serial killer. It's interesting when you try to get in to the mind of these people and why they do what they do.

However I'd never pity a serial killer! Never!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
It has been suggested that due to the status being given to high profile serial killers that certain new breed serial killers aren't doing it because they have been abused as children or norn with brain defects.... it's becuase they want the so called 'glory' that the serial killer status brings. The thrill of the chase by the police and when they're finally caught the media attention.
That's still a pshcological disorder though, you can't tell me that anyone in their right mind would want to become a serial killer?

Please see the first part of my post:
By DB
There are different types of serial killers.
All usually have a psychological problem if you go by our standards
Also who's to say what's the 'right mind' to want to become a serial killer. The fact is they WANT the limelight. They know they aint gonna get it in the movies... what's easier... what doesn't require training and luck of the draw?

I know, killing people!

That's how some these glory killers now think! Whether or not that should be pittied... well it's up to the individual. I wouldn't pity them though. Study em YES, pity... no!

It's quite a tragic world when people don't have pity for the sick.

Originally posted by Sidla
It's quite a tragic world when people don't have pity for the sick.

Was Shipman sick or just plain EVIL?

Originally posted by Sidla
It's quite a tragic world when people don't have pity for the sick.
Show me someone with aids, cancer, alzeimers (sp?), or another incurable disease and i'll pity them.

Harold shipman MAY have had a psychological problem but he KNEW what he was doing and he KNEW it was wrong, so do all other serial killers. They enjoy the killing, it gives them a buzz.

Read some of the books I have and you may learn a thing or two.

I don't have pity for serial killers cos they are RESPONSIBLE for their actions. They make concious decisions to kill.

I was listening to Radio 2 yesterday and it was said by someone (I didn't catch who) that Shipman showed no remorse for his crimes because in his own mind he didn't believe he'd done anything wrong.

With this in mind he probably suffered overwhelming feelings of personal disgrace and anguish after being jailed and socially destroyed, having no option other than to take his own life since society had turned against him just for doing what he thought was his right as a GP.

If this was the case then yup, he was more than a little disturbed. :loopy:

Not that anyone is ever likely to know what was going on inside Shipman's mind but, given the fact he was a far from stupid man who knew he was unlikely to ever be released, his suicide looks to me like the final two fingered gesture.

I feel sympathy for the families and friends of his victims as they feel robbed of any chance now of him actually admitting what he did let alone why.

I feel for his family too - also victims.

I was interested to hear that the Times reported the fact that Shipman's newly widowed wife is to recieve a pension and a cash lump sum of around £100k after the demise of her former partner.

What interests me is not the fact that she's getting this money, but the fact that a newspaper seems to see this as a story worthy of the public's attention.

Why is this?

The pension and payments made to a GP's widow in the normal course of things is never mentioned in the press, does the fact that Shipman was a serial-killer mean that his widow (who had no knowledge of his crimes) should not be entitled to this cash?

Do the press now intend to take out their frustrations on the man's innocent family in the aftermath of his suicide?

I am with Carmine on this

Why should Mrs S not get what any other widow gets, just because her husband was a serious criminal

She didnt do it

Originally posted by Belle
I am with Carmine on this

Why should Mrs S not get what any other widow gets, just because her husband was a serious criminal

She didnt do it

However the report also states that Shipman would not have received his pension had he lived - his NHS pension entitlement had been stripped, therefore why should his widow receive it?

I guess I had better read this report then

Someone send it to me?

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Harold shipman MAY have had a psychological problem but he KNEW what he was doing and he KNEW it was wrong, so do all other serial killers. They enjoy the killing, it gives them a buzz.

Read some of the books I have and you may learn a thing or two.

I don't have pity for serial killers cos they are RESPONSIBLE for their actions. They make concious decisions to kill.
So you are saying anyone who is in their right mind could be a serial killer?

I agree that Shipman is quite an extreme case because he apparently showed no remorse for any of his crimes. However you still must have a psychological disorder do what he did, wether he knew what he was doing or not.

No that's not what I'm saying or said.
What I am saying is who are we to judge what the 'right' mind is.

Given the psyche of primal human beings and the fact we are all animals. But we're straying from the subject.

What I am saying is I dont pity serial killers cos they know what they are doing and ejoy it.

Read this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1903402700/qid=1074177103/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_2/202-8683335-4110216) book to start you off. It gives an insight into the minds of serial killers. On some you get childhood issues that link into why some people become serial killers.

It's a very good read!

No, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Shipman only enjoyed killing because he had a psychological problem.

As for 'who are we to judge what the right mind is', we're not, which is why I'm not passing judgement on Shipman, which is what you and most others seem to be doing.

No what you said is that I should pitty shipman for being a murderer.

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't. A psychological problem (in mine or your eyes) may explain his actions but does not excuse them.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
No what you said is that I should pitty shipman for being a murderer.
No I didn't, why don't you try reading what I've written? I said we should pity those who are sick. I believe Shipman was sick because he had a psychological disorder.

Originally posted by Sidla
No I didn't, why don't you try reading what I've written? I said we should pity those who are sick. I believe Shipman was sick because he had a psychological disorder.
Oh lets not quibble over detail.
So you are saying I should pitty Harold the murderer because in YOUR opinion he is sick. I'm sorry. No.
He may be sick in your opinion, but in miy opinion he's a murderer who knew what he was doing.

Originally posted by Dug
However the report also states that Shipman would not have received his pension had he lived - his NHS pension entitlement had been stripped, therefore why should his widow receive it?

Thanks for the guardian link Dug

Okay this is what I have just read
"Under national health service pension scheme regulations, ministers directed that 100% of Shipman's personal benefits from the NHS pension scheme should be forfeited. However, Mrs Shipman is entitled to the relevant survivor benefits on his death"

I guess the answer is because she is his widow, she survives him. Benefits wouldnt go to him because he is a murderer (or for whatever other reason people are stripped of pension rights) but spouses and dependents get theirs still.

He cannot keep her as his dependent any more once he is dead so the scheme pays out to her what it wont pay out to him.

Sounds fair to me

Widow's pension

Just like Policeman's wives get, or anybody else in a good scheme