hi all, i left my job 3 weeks ago, had enuff of the place, had some trouble with hr management. anyway i get paid monthly, pay day last week, no wage slip, no p 45? i was given a letter from hr which said i owed them holidays, and it would be deducted from final wage. they let me have the holidays, which i took, apparently they say i hadnt accrued them and have taken them back, no evidence of workings out, payslip, ive just got p 45 after demanding it. it doese say in my contract vaguely that any overpaid holidays will be taken back. however i was only told in letter they would take them, i never agreed. it was there mistake giving me holidays which i had not accrued, from what i have read, if it is there mistake are they allowed to take them back without any evidence of deductions or consent? i have wrote to them and the hr management said there dealing with it. ive had trouble with the hr lady, and believe she may be delibarately messing me about? the works clock sheet says i left a week earlier than i actually did. any advice appreciated/?

unfortunately you do owe them.
employers take it on good faith that you will honour your holiday entitlement & it is standard practice to claim the days back.
especially as it is in your contract.a tribunal would not normally even be interested in this type of complaint i'm afraid.
i think the calculation is 1&1/4 or 1&1/2 days allowed per calendar month in most jobs.

could they have just cancelled our time sheet to make up the deficit for the holidays?
that way they won't have to process all the paperework etc..

Originally posted by jayone
hi all, i left my job 3 weeks ago, had enuff of the place, had some trouble with hr management. anyway i get paid monthly, pay day last week, no wage slip, no p 45? i was given a letter from hr which said i owed them holidays, and it would be deducted from final wage. they let me have the holidays, which i took, apparently they say i hadnt accrued them and have taken them back, no evidence of workings out, payslip, ive just got p 45 after demanding it. it doese say in my contract vaguely that any overpaid holidays will be taken back. however i was only told in letter they would take them, i never agreed. it was there mistake giving me holidays which i had not accrued, from what i have read, if it is there mistake are they allowed to take them back without any evidence of deductions or consent? i have wrote to them and the hr management said there dealing with it. ive had trouble with the hr lady, and believe she may be delibarately messing me about? the works clock sheet says i left a week earlier than i actually did. any advice appreciated/?

holidays are normally taken in advance of the accruement. You accrue your annual leave over the course of one year.
So if you leave in june (say exactly half way through the year) then you have accrued 1/2 your annual leave.
If you've already taken more than 1/2 then you will have to pay it back, I don't think that that is unfair nor should it be unexpected.
You should obviously recieve a final payslip with the deductions shown and a P45.

Originally posted by Cyclone
holidays are normally taken in advance of the accruement. You accrue your annual leave over the course of one year.
So if you leave in june (say exactly half way through the year) then you have accrued 1/2 your annual leave.
If you've already taken more than 1/2 then you will have to pay it back, I don't think that that is unfair nor should it be unexpected.


Cyclone's right...and if it was the other way round, it would work in your favour.

When I left my last job I was more than halfway through the year but had taken less than half my holiday, therefore the company owed me a week's holiday. They gave me the option of taking this during my notice (which would have meant I left straight away) or working my notice and getting my holiday pay in addition to my final wages.

Yep, sorry, you don’t really have a leg to stand on here. When someone leaves their employer part way through the holiday year the company work out how much holiday you have been entitled to up until when you leave. If you have under-used holiday then they pay you what they owe in your final pay, but it works the other way as well, where if you over-use your holiday you have it deducted from your final pay. They do not have to get your permission to do this as it is standard procedure.

It is a common mistake made by many people (I have to calculate leavers holiday pay on a weekly basis). A lot of people assume they can take their full year’s entitlement before they leave and are surprised when it is deducted.

If you’re unsure how they have calcualted your holiday entitlement and how much they have deducted from you then ask them how they came to that figure. There’s no hard and fast rules fo calculating what’s owed to you – some companies only count full calendar months completed in any one leave year, whereas others will be more accurate and calculate entitlement to the day you leave, and then round up or down to the nearest day.

can anybody tell me how, why i have been allowed to take holidays i hadnt accrued but been paid for?????

Originally posted by jayone
can anybody tell me how, why i have been allowed to take holidays i hadnt accrued but been paid for?????

thats how its done they allow the holidays to be taken in good faith. they believe you intend to work there, you are the only one who knows whether you will quit or not.
after years of working i rarely take a holiday before May, that allows the first batch to accrue.but as this ill be last ever job i've no need to worry.

(sxxt i said that about the last job)

Originally posted by jayone
can anybody tell me how, why i have been allowed to take holidays i hadnt accrued but been paid for?????

Because that's how it works, otherwise people wouldn't be able to take any holiday for the first few months of the year.

If you took your holidays as you accrued them, you'd have a couple of hours off each week. Not good if you want to go away.

Originally posted by jayone
can anybody tell me how, why i have been allowed to take holidays i hadnt accrued but been paid for?????

how else could it work? Would you only like to have holiday available that you've accrued? Or would you like to have holiday awarded 1 year in arrears?

I like to take holidays in Jan - Mar to go snowboarding. To do it your way would mean that i'd have only 2.5 days available by the end of january. So I wouldn't be going anywhere then...

and by June i'd have 15 days, fine if I want a summer holiday, but not what I choose to do.

thanks for the info pple. its been nearly a week since i wrote letter asking for wage slip, still no reply? they have got the amount of holidays wrong, ive asked for proof of deductions, still waiting, ive also been doing my home work and i have read that, even if it says in contract they are allowed to take over paid holidays, they still have to show u a copy of the clause in the contract before any deductions take place, and get u to agree in writing before deductions take place. this never happened, all i got was a letter telling me they will be taking holidays back, i dont think this is an actual aggreement, any advice???

Originally posted by jayone
ive also been doing my home work and i have read that, even if it says in contract they are allowed to take over paid holidays, they still have to show u a copy of the clause in the contract before any deductions take place, and get u to agree in writing before deductions take place.

No, if it is in your contract they don't need to show you a copy of it or obtain your written agreement.

They are, however, obliged to provide a payslip showing what deductions they have made.

Contact a legal adviser or the Citizens Advice Bureau straight away with regard to your entitlement to a payslip.

CAB numbers:
258 3322 (London Road)
275 5376 (Spital Hill)

Originally posted by jayone
thanks for the info pple. its been nearly a week since i wrote letter asking for wage slip, still no reply? they have got the amount of holidays wrong, ive asked for proof of deductions, still waiting, ive also been doing my home work and i have read that, even if it says in contract they are allowed to take over paid holidays, they still have to show u a copy of the clause in the contract before any deductions take place, and get u to agree in writing before deductions take place. this never happened, all i got was a letter telling me they will be taking holidays back, i dont think this is an actual aggreement, any advice???

it wouldn't be of much use if they needed your agreement first, I doubt that that is the case, why would anyone ever agree.

hello all again, i dont give up that easy lol. u heard of acas? its a law employment site, found this, Where an employer relies on a termin the contract to make a deduction, he or she must insure that the worker has been given, prior to making the deduction, a written copy of the term or an explanation of its existence and effect. i also read this,employer may try and withold any outstanding holiday pay from final pay, But legally if the worker is on a minimum 4 weeks hol entitlement, they are not allowed to do this asit contravenes the working time directive.? im on 4 weeks min hols. ALL i got was quote"i can also confirm that u have accrued 13 days holiday upto this date, however as u have already taken 18 days, the 5 days u have over taken will be deducted from final salary" Also i have no trust in the person dealing with it, that is why i have demanded evidence of the deductions, i should get a wage slip showing atleast 30 hrs in august, she told my partner, who works at same place, that i wont get a wage slip, yet my letter from hr when i left says i will get wage slip, i truly believe shes hiding sumthing. i had trouble with her and threatened to sue her, i didnt sue, but asked for apology, written apology, and never have to be put in a one to one scenario. i got verbal apology, no written apology, and shes slowly started dealing with things related to me. very dodgy. i got 1 out of the 3.???

basically i think its personel, she hates me.

from the acas site

What happens when a worker has taken more leave than their entitlement on termination of employment?
Regulation 14 (4) of the Working Time Regulations 1998 states that an employer and worker can draw up a 'relevant agreement'( for example, in the contract of employment) to provide that a worker will compensate the employer, whether by payment, undertaking additional work or otherwise if leave already taken is in excess of entitlement when employment ends.

There should be a 'relevant agreement' in place; if not, and a deduction of overpayment is made by the employer from the worker’s final wage payment, the worker may have the right to submit a claim to an employment tribunal under section 13 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 - the right not to suffer unauthorised deductions.



here (http://www.acas.org.uk/publications/AL03.html)

yes thats true, but still there are many discrepencies, time sheet says i left a week earlier than i really did, they say i took 18 days, i took 17 days? they are right deducting the hol pay, but still no wage slip 5 days after pay day? no acknowledgement that they are wrong, she said she was dealing with it . shouldnt take 5 days, everybody else got theirs??

Originally posted by jayone
yes thats true, but still there are many discrepencies, time sheet says i left a week earlier than i really did, they say i took 18 days, i took 17 days? they are right deducting the hol pay, but still no wage slip 5 days after pay day? no acknowledgement that they are wrong, she said she was dealing with it . shouldnt take 5 days, everybody else got theirs??

it might be worth getting legal advice and sending them a letter mentioning a tribunal, that should gee them up a bit.

hello again, im still being fobbed off, my partner went to see the hr management today. my partner told her that i am still waiting for proof of deductions, wage slip, she told my partner the accountant was dealing with it and that i probably wont get a wage slip and that it will probably be a letter. For tax and insurance purposes shouldnt i get a wage slip still or are they allowed to do this and not give me a wage slip? who would be best to seek advice from, acas or CAB?#

If you have been paid an amount by them then you should get a payslip. I don’t see why they are refusing to provide you with one. Unless they are saying it has been sent out and lost in the post – they can’t usually provide a copy, but they should be able to provide the information you need. It can cause some difficulties for you if you have payslips missing (e.g. if you need to prove your income for whatever reason). Ask them why you can’t have a payslip. Ask them what happened to the payslip that should have been produced when they made the final payment to you.

i actually owed them but my timesheet says i left a week earlier than i did, also the amount of holidays they put before me are wrong. i worked hours in august so for tax and insurance purposes i should get a wage slip, the main thing is they wont show me proof of the deductions, by law they should, ive been waiting over a week, they have made it clear i wont get wage slip but a letter showing deductions instead? i truly believe she has tampered with timesheet or sumthing dodgy, i think they know if i get my wage slip it will prove this. the hr lady dealing with it shoulnt be dealing with it because i had trouble with her a year ago. i almost walked out ,my terms were an apology, written apology, didnt get, also never to have to deal with her again such as ringing her when im absent it wasnt long before she was dealing with my issuues again. are they allowed to give me a letter showing deductions instead of wage slip??

Originally posted by jayone
.... are they allowed to give me a letter showing deductions instead of wage slip??

A letter showing calculation of wages and deductions will be classed as a "wage slip".

this letter should show everything tax insurance, deductions? if it doesnt add up or show everything i asked for then i should be entitled to take it further yes?

The plot thickens Columbo. Please let us know how you get on! Good luck

Originally posted by jayone
this letter should show everything tax insurance, deductions? if it doesnt add up or show everything i asked for then i should be entitled to take it further yes?

Calculation of Gross Pay and All Deductions
Not sure about "everything i asked for" but otherwise..... Yes!

hello again. just recieved another letter. surprise , surprise its not wot i asked for, all the letter is saying is how they deducted it, no figures amounts no calculations, no proof of deductions.. basically they will not show me there calculations like i asked. because the money was deducted,from the days i worked in august i recieved no money, so there wont be a wage slip she says. theres no mention of the mistakes like my timesheet, or the amount of hols. it also says that my p45 shows i left at the eend of july owing to the fact i never recieved a payment for the month of august, thats why i wont get wage slip. i now really believe she is hiding sumthing. the days i worked in august, would they have had tax and insurance deducted? if so should i get those calculations? or should i get the actual sums for the deductions, shes fobbing me off again HELP.

Originally posted by jayone
hello again. just recieved another letter. surprise , surprise its not wot i asked for, all the letter is saying is how they deducted it, no figures amounts no calculations, no proof of deductions.. basically they will not show me there calculations like i asked. because the money was deducted,from the days i worked in august i recieved no money, so there wont be a wage slip she says. theres no mention of the mistakes like my timesheet, or the amount of hols. it also says that my p45 shows i left at the eend of july owing to the fact i never recieved a payment for the month of august, thats why i wont get wage slip. i now really believe she is hiding sumthing. the days i worked in august, would they have had tax and insurance deducted? if so should i get those calculations? or should i get the actual sums for the deductions, shes fobbing me off again HELP.

Have you spoken to the CAB, ACAS or your union if you were a member?
They should be able to apply the appropriate pressure and get a full accounting for what has been done.

im in this forum and a few others, aswell as reading all the info on the web. i am going to cab friday for advice, i have all the paperwork letters showing discrepencies. the more facts info i know the better, this company walked all over me, threatened me, and havnt got a reputation for being fair. they have messed up and cant , wont even prove it to me with some calculations, and how the calculations come to£ 0.00 conveniantly with no showing of this calculation deduction. ive waited 1 month for my p45, and now ive been told the days i worked in august are kind of scrubbed because i owed them an amount for overpayment of holidays? they obviously dont want me to see the amounts calculations for some reason? i will find out friday and well see then

file for constructive dismissal (although it's not true) it may get the ball rolling.
contact the inland revenue & paye dept. inform them that the company has not issued you a p45 (this is illegal) that they have not shown accurate tax & ni dedcutions when you left.
then contact the ex employer advise them what you have done i.e going to acas,inland revenue etc and see what they say.

sorry, recieved p45 after waiting 1month. I HAVE TWICE REQUESTED proof , breakdown of deductions, but will not show me the sums? just a letter telling how they were deducted?, i am getting legal or cab advice friday, im pretty sure i have the right to see the sums deductions, especially with all the discrepencies and lack of trust between me and the hr.