Anybody see BBC4's programme on the history of the song Jerusalem, last night (8/9)?

Funny how the political parties have all claimed it as their own anthem, the Tories, Labour (although Tony looked uncomfortable singing it - not surprising really), and the BNP.

Does anyone think this should be England's National Anthem? Its history is really interesting, how it came to be, being the work of three people: Blake, Parry and the orchestration from Elgar. (In a sense, a trinity which is quite ironic given the idea of the LORD walking the green hills of this beautiful country.)

It was also interesting to see that the Women's Institute have claimed it as their own and for Billy Bragg, whose politics are the antithesis of mine (although I find him an interesting man who puts his opinions across well) actually feeling quite patriotic and sentimental toward the song.

Saturday night is Last Night Of The Proms night. I've been and bought loads of flags, bunting, balloons and hats and we're going to have a real party in which I fully expect Jerusalem and ofcause, Land of Hope & Glory to be the highlights of the evening (lubricated admittedly, with copious amounts of French lager. Oh well.....,).

I understood Jerusalem to be a carol, rather than an Anthem or a Hymn.

I think it would be a better idea for an English national anthem though, as "God save the queen" is the GB national anthem, and franky quite a durge. And you couldn't have England Playing Scotland and them both singing the same national anthem could you..

Scotland could sing "sailing by Rod stewart, Donald Weerz Yu Tooosers or Loch Lomand" or whatever their Scottish national anthem is. And England can sing Jerusalem.

Muddycoffee -

You are correct in saying that Jerusalem isn't actually a hymn. On the programme last night, there was the story of the vicar who banned a couple from singing it during their wedding ceremony.

And wasn't it only at the Northern Ireland versus England match where only one National Anthem was played - for both 'countries'?

But I might get jealous at the thought of the Scots singing Donald, Where's Yer Troosers. Maybe the Proclaimers could do a version? Better than the usualy solemn stuff, eh?

NO No No, Jerusalem is more drab than God save the Queen!

I vote for Rule Britannia!

Originally posted by muddycoffee
I understood Jerusalem to be a carol, rather than an Anthem or a Hymn.

I think it would be a better idea for an English national anthem though, as "God save the queen" is the GB national anthem, and franky quite a durge. And you couldn't have England Playing Scotland and them both singing the same national anthem could you..

Scotland could sing "sailing by Rod stewart, Donald Weerz Yu Tooosers or Loch Lomand" or whatever their Scottish national anthem is. And England can sing Jerusalem. according to my ex the scots prefer " flower of scotland" but she was the only one i ever met who knew all the words.

some ones going to google it,i can feel it in my bones:banana:

Originally posted by Ousetunes
You are correct in saying that Jerusalem isn't actually a hymn.


I missed the programme, but I am intrigued by this aspect.

Carol? Hymn? Can you explain a little more about this? Please?

I know that there can be non-religious "carols", but I have always found 'Jerusalem' in my "Hymn Book".


Or was that a "Book of Hymns and Carols"?

Was it written as a Carol yet has become a Hymn?

Originally posted by muddycoffee
I understood Jerusalem to be a carol, rather than an Anthem or a Hymn.

I think it would be a better idea for an English national anthem though, as "God save the queen" is the GB national anthem, and franky quite a durge. And you couldn't have England Playing Scotland and them both singing the same national anthem could you..

Scotland could sing "sailing by Rod stewart, Donald Weerz Yu Tooosers or Loch Lomand" or whatever their Scottish national anthem is. And England can sing Jerusalem.

Why would we sing a Rod Stewart song. He's 100% English. Our national anthem is 'Flower of Scotland' as sung at the recent footy matches.

I'll ignore the underlying jibes in your post:suspect:

Originally posted by cgksheff
I missed the programme, but I am intrigued by this aspect.

Carol? Hymn? Can you explain a little more about this? Please?

I know that there can be non-religious "carols", but I have always found 'Jerusalem' in my "Hymn Book".


Or was that a "Book of Hymns and Carols"?

I found this quite a difficult fact, but I believe it was more to do with the fact that it wasn't written as a gesture for God, as a means of praising Him (which is more or less the purpose of Hymns).

The words to Jerusalem are more conjectural:

"And did those feet in ancient times, walk upon England's mountains green?

And was the Holy Lamb of God on England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine, shine forth upon our clouded hills?

And was Jerusalem builded here among these dark Satanic Mills?"

I guess - to be honest - I don't really know! Sounds pretty hymnal to me!

But I love the words, the imagery and personally, the idea that Jesus may have walked the very hills of this country (a myth which circulated something like 600 years after Christ's crucifixion).

I think I'm digging myself deeper?! Over to you!!

Originally posted by serapis
NO No No, Jerusalem is more drab than God save the Queen!

I vote for Rule Britannia!

You can't have rule britannia for an English national anthem. Brittania is Britain..

I read somewhere that Blake's words could be interpreted as a dig at the negative side of industrialisation.

i.e. How could we think that Jesus could have been here when we look at all the destruction an despondancy of our industrialised towns?
Therefore let us strive to overcome this destruction and make the country, once again, a place fit for such a visitor.

Originally posted by cgksheff
I know that there can be non-religious "carols", but I have always found 'Jerusalem' in my "Hymn Book".


Well It used to be in the Methodist Hymn book at the back where they had a different section, may have been called psalms?? But they removed it from the newer one despite great protest about 20 years ago.

According to the concise oxford dictionary of music..
I have summerised somewhat...

Hymn : -
Song of praise to a deity or saint,

Carol : -
Originally a round dance with music which soon developed in to a song. Which is put to a text, usually dealing with the birth of christ, although many texts are pagan in origin.

Anthem : -
Protestant Churches version of a Latin motet. The choir alone undertakes the duty of a song, having elaborate vocal parts and sometimes solos.

With the appalling trend towards the 'dumbing down' of English culture well under way, would not 'The Birdy Song', suffice as an appropriate national anthem? The lumpen masses of slack-jawed, incurious oafs could all do the little dance that goes with the anthem too. The adoption of this new anthem would symbolise a mercy killing of the 'old' England of deference, gentle manners, exquisite courtesy and understatement and a hailing of the 'new' Britain of 'yoof', 'diversity' and multicultural relativism, in which heroes are no longer manly types with finely-chiselled nostrils who have distinguished themselves by acts of conspicuous bravery, but rather charmless 'reality tv' celebrities, foppish footballers and bizarre androgynes incapable of true musical invention.

Yes, 'the Birdy Song' is a fitting anthem for this fastly-disappearing 'green' land, where instant gratification has replaced 'cultural capital', and our town/ city centres are places of near riot at night, the air rent with the screams and cackles of drink-crazed mobs 'having a laugh' with their 'mates'.

What is our national sport? Cricket? Football? Croquet? No, it is Mass Urination in Public, as can be witnessed in Newcastle's Bigg Market, and other large drinking enclaves in most English cities. Urinating in public is arguably what the masses do best. Let us elevate it then to national sport status. Yes, I think the spectacle of thousands of near-alchoholic Britons, urinating in public to the 'Birdy Song' is a fitting symbol of Mr Blair's brave 'new', 'young' country.

Originally posted by timo
With the appalling trend towards the 'dumbing down' of English culture well under way, would not 'The Birdy Song', suffice as an appropriate national anthem? The lumpen masses of slack-jawed, incurious oafs could all do the little dance that goes with the anthem too. The adoption of this new anthem would symbolise a mercy killing of the 'old' England of deference, gentle manners, exquisite courtesy and understatement and a hailing of the 'new' Britain of 'yoof', 'diversity' and multicultural relativism, in which heroes are no longer manly types with finely-chiselled nostrils who have distinguished themselves by acts of conspicuous bravery, but rather charmless 'reality tv' celebrities, foppish footballers and bizarre androgynes incapable of true musical invention.

Yes, 'the Birdy Song' is a fitting anthem for this fastly-disappearing 'green' land, where instant gratification has replaced 'cultural capital', and our town/ city centres are places of near riot at night, the air rent with the screams and cackles of drink-crazed mobs 'having a laugh' with their 'mates'.

What is our national sport? Cricket? Football? Croquet? No, it is Mass Urination in Public, as can be witnessed in Newcastle's Bigg Market, and other large drinking enclaves in most English cities. Urinating in public is arguably what the masses do best. Let us elevate it then to national sport status. Yes, I think the spectacle of thousands of near-alchoholic Britons, urinating in public to the 'Birdy Song' is a fitting symbol of Mr Blair's brave 'new', 'young' country.


100% agreed :clap: :clap:

Originally posted by Ousetunes
And wasn't it only at the Northern Ireland versus England match where only one National Anthem was played - for both 'countries'?

Even more unusual was when England played Lichtenstein. Both countries anthem's have exactly the same tune (but different lyrics), so it was played twice.

They could have at least played the 'B' side.....

Timo,
I think you are missing the point slightly.

England is part of Great Britain, not Great Britain. Therefore Why should english teams have to sing the British National anthem. Especially when playing against the other countries in the kingdom.

Surely an English Song would be more appropriate, and as Jerusalem is about England, it has been used for the Ashes series at the begginning of each day's play.

Muddycoffee,
LOL. Missing the point! No, believe me, I am aware of the difference between England and Britain. It was just an excuse for a genial poke at the decline and fall of English culture. You should know my penchant for vituperation and jesting by now. I would send you a 'smiley' if I had the visio-spatial intelligence to be able to do so.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
You can't have rule britannia for an English national anthem. Brittania is Britain..

Correct me if I’m wrong but aren't we talking about a replacement for the national Anthem which is British not English.

If we are having Jerusalem as the new National anthem, then at least let's have The Fall's version of it. It's great!

"and did those feet-ah, in ancient times-ah!..."

There are plenty of other countries which have more rousing, more inspirational national anthems. I am sure that the England football team were insipid by "God save the Queen" the other night.

"Hen Wlad fy nhadau" (Land of My Fathers) is a prime example of what a national anthem sould be. The Marseillaise is far more rousing than GSTQ (or for those of an earlier vintage GSTK).

A national anthem should be about the country - e.g. Norway's "... we love this country". Jerusalem would be a better choice than the present dirge.

If the anthem were to change, I'm sure the replacement would have to encompass all of the different people that make up our population today*.

I'm not sure if I'd agree with this though. We'd end up with some dire, uninspiring MOR song. M People's "What have you done today" for instance...

*or rather not exclude anyone.

Originally posted by serapis
Correct me if I’m wrong but aren't we talking about a replacement for the national Anthem which is British not English.

Nope.
We are talking about an English National anthem in addition to a British National anthem. So that when England is represented they can sing it.


This is from the Author and Originator of this thread, and the first post.......
Originally posted by Ousetunes
Anybody see BBC4's programme on the history of the song Jerusalem, last night (8/9)?
...

Does anyone think this should be England's National Anthem? Its

Originally posted by depoix
according to my ex the scots prefer " flower of scotland" but she was the only one i ever met who knew all the words.

some ones going to google it,i can feel it in my bones:banana:

There is only one song regarded as the true Scottish National Anthem, and that is "Flower of Scotland". No question.

Beautiful and passionate, mournful and moving, but deeply stirring at the same time.

I appreciate that it's not really my business, but I think "Jerusalem" would be an excellent and fitting choice for a National English Anthem. At least English people could sing that, and feel justifiable pride in it - not a sense of embarrassment as with the current anthem.

StarSparkle

As I mentioned on another thread, if we are to embrace Britain's (or for this thread, England's) multicultural make-up with a new National Anthem then one already exists.

Ladies and gentlemen, the new National Anthem is Land of Hope and Glory, sung by the little Indian fella at the end of "It Ain't Half Hot Mum".

Altogether now - 'Lend of hooap and glooorieee' (followed ofcause by Windsor Davies' SHADAAAAAPPPPPPP!!!!! and rasping of sitar strings).

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Originally posted by Ousetunes
As I mentioned on another thread, if we are to embrace Britain's (or for this thread, England's) multicultural make-up with a new National Anthem then one already exists.

Ladies and gentlemen, the new National Anthem is Land of Hope and Glory, sung by the little Indian fella at the end of "It Ain't Half Hot Mum".

Altogether now - 'Lend of hooap and glooorieee' (followed ofcause by Windsor Davies' SHADAAAAAPPPPPPP!!!!! and rasping of sitar strings).

:clap: :clap: :clap:

It'll do for me!!

whatever happens i hope it doesnt go the way of the american national anthem

it makes my teeth ache to watch some of the people who try to out do each other with renditions of it when they appear at big games in the usa

some of the worst are the modern pop divas who seem to think it should be screamed out but in different tempo to the music

i liked jimi hendrix's version though

Originally posted by muddycoffee
Nope.
We are talking about an English National anthem in addition to a British National anthem. So that when England is represented they can sing it.


This is from the Author and Originator of this thread, and the first post.......

OK, OK, no one likes a smart-arse :D

Originally posted by feargal
If we are having Jerusalem as the new National anthem, then at least let's have The Fall's version of it. It's great!

"and did those feet-ah, in ancient times-ah!..."

:thumbsup:

Or we could have "British People In Hot Weather".

Well, Jerusalem is a good song and stirring and all that, but I'm not so sure that Blake intended his words to be taken as patriotic. It's more about mental and creative freedom than about how ace England might be.

I'm not surprised that some churches reject it as Blake didn't approve of organised religion, and Jerusalem can be interpreted as questioning it (amongst many other interpretations).

Originally posted by Mathom
:thumbsup:

Well, Jerusalem is a good song and stirring and all that, but I'm not so sure that Blake intended his words to be taken as patriotic. It's more about mental and creative freedom than about how ace England might be.




You have a valid point, Mathom.

However, as regards patriotism, look at the final verse:

"I shall not cease from mental fight
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land"

The verse before this has a strong biblical narrative, particularly with phrases such as 'Lamb of God' and the mentioning of bows, spears and chariots, which is similar to some of the verses in the book of Ephesians found in the New Testament.

However, the most interesting line for me is 'Among those dark Satanic Mills'. Does this line have more to do with the worldly reality of England , but look toward a more heavenly ideal, that is, a better place for all?

I'd love it to be our National anthem. It has more resonance than God Save The Queen. Blake is one o my favourite poet/madmen as well.

There is nothing nicer than hearing it belted out in a church. It is an inspiring song that can't help you be proud to be English and give 110%