It's official... Sheffield is the cheapest place for heroin [Archive]

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 08:31

Peer pressure, depression, feeling drunk and doing something stupid (we've all been there!).... I don't think anyone sets out to take the stuff and become an addict.

They try it, get the buzz or the comfort they need, aim for it to be a one off and then fall down the slippery slope. It's a weakness, perhaps a lack of education or having that knowledge reinforced.

I've known a few heroin addicts, they all hate the fact that they are addicted, all wish they'd never started and all want to find a way to come off it. The trouble is that although there is medical support available, counselling groups, you name it....there are waiting lists as long as the Parkway to get on them. Then they start the treatment but fall off it, restart it, it's not easy and the side effects are bad. There are success cases.

I know one guy who went onto heroin because he was grieving for a relative who had died. He used all his money up and borrowed from countless numbers of people (never stole) and finally with help of friends began a programme of rehabilitation. Today he's almost back to normal.

Not everyone who takes the drug should be sterotyped as a low life.

dirtybobby

06-09-2005, 08:37

so, um, yeah.. i edited this out..

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 08:39

Originally posted by kirky
they are in their situation through their own stupidity,when you have the misfortune to have one of these morons in your own family and you see the pain and misery they cause then i think it gives you the right to comment.

I don't have one in my own family, but my best friends family has a couple.

No matter what people do they're still people.

And no death isnt a side effects unless you take stupid quantities or something that isnt what it says it is.

I know a few heroin addicts who are quite happy with themselves, dont steal or hurt people for money, because they can afford it

Dont believe the tabloid media, heroin does not automatically equal death and moral emptiness.

JonJParr

06-09-2005, 08:47

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
I know a few heroin addicts who are quite happy with themselves, dont steal or hurt people for money, because they can afford it.

I doubt that very much Carl_Malibu. Unless they can afford to live without the need to work then they can't afford to have a heroin addiction. Given that I don't think a heroin addict can keep down a job then these acquaintances of yours either have lots of cash [and quite frankly a pointless existence] or are stealing [perhaps from the taxpayer] to support their junky lifestyle. I have no sympathy or empathy for such pondlife.

jackthedog

06-09-2005, 08:54

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
Dont believe the tabloid media, heroin does not automatically equal death and moral emptiness.

Unfortunately, the addicts that the tabloid media depicts do exist. And they are the ones that everyday people like you or I have unpleasant run-ins with.

bigredbox

06-09-2005, 08:55

No of course death is'nt a side effect it's a FACT eventually, very slowly, in time.
But answer this one......why don't addicts like smokers cause such mayhem and upset. They certainly don't steal for the next fix cos they're so desperate.

The drug is pure evil...that's a fact, the way it gets you addicted, it's false comforting effect, it's false lull of security and "high" it gives.
Anything injected into the body, sniffed or taken, should be approached with extreme caution.

Better education? Take them down to the medico legal centre for a tour, take them to Wakefield nick, take them to Rampton.
The true effects are plain to see.
After all this education, ask them " would You make that choice?"

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 09:01

Originally posted by JonJParr
I doubt that very much Carl_Malibu. Unless they can afford to live without the need to work then they can't afford to have a heroin addiction. Given that I don't think a heroin addict can keep down a job then these acquaintances of yours either have lots of cash [and quite frankly a pointless existence] or are stealing [perhaps from the taxpayer] to support their junky lifestyle. I have no sympathy or empathy for such pondlife.

no you are wrong jon.

not all junkies have big habits.
think about it like this: cigarettes are a good analogy because the heaviness of the addiction is similar (the side effects of not having any aren't but your body becomes dependant on nicotine) -
some people smoke 20 a day, they cant help it, they spend lots of money on it and wish they didnt but they are essentially weak willed people (I fit into this category)
some people smoke every week or two when theyre drunk
some people can smoke 20 a day for 6 months then drop a packet and never pick it up again

the scare stories we hear about heroin are the weaker people.

and the guy who I'm talking about isnt bleeding money from the taxpayer, he's a pro/semi pro BMXer. He broke his back and was given morphine to ease the pain. He liked the feeling and started taking junk. Though he takes it regularly he doesnt take very much, and when he starts building up a tolerance he cuts it out for a little bit.

JonJParr

06-09-2005, 09:04

I'll have to take your word for it Carl given that I'm not an expert in the field of heroin addiction. As long as your acquaintance doesn't ever end up in an NHS hospital as a result of his use I don't care.

dirtybobby

06-09-2005, 09:09

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
I know a few heroin addicts who are quite happy with themselves, dont steal or hurt people for money, because they can afford it

Dont believe the tabloid media, heroin does not automatically equal death and moral emptiness.

yeah, but they're not smack 'eads.. people can recreationally and regularly use heroin whilst holding down a normal life and decent career.. this is not what i would call a smack 'ead..

it can't be denied that the majority of horse users seem to be dirty, moral-free, menace-to-society rejects..

but i agree with what spiffy said; great advertising for "new sheffield".. it's a good job most smack 'eads won't have the money/motivation/motor capabilities to migrate here!

jackthedog

06-09-2005, 09:09

Something your pro/semi pro BMXing friend does is contribute to the demand for herion. He puts cash in the pocket of a dealer.

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 09:11

But like any heroin addict he'll wish he never ever started and will want to find a way to get clean.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 09:15

yes indeed he does. But that is a different argument entirely.

Im not disputing at all that there are a lot of morally devoid smack heads around, and neither that junk is nast nasty stuff, but it doesnt have very much in the way of direct side effects.

edit: in reply to the dealers thing

bigredbox

06-09-2005, 09:15

Carl, I agree with you there,

I was given very strong pain killers, car crash, I did build up a tollerance and was walking round in a daze, but the pain was still there.
It takes a lot of self understanding, to know when the cut off point should be.
Cannabis is good for pain, but even that does'nt work after a while.

I'm one of these women addicted to cigs, know full well the risks involved and the dice with death but what do we do?
Should I be the nasty, stressed mum and be a nightmare to live with....or do I chill out now & again with a crafty fag and a coffee. Never smoke outdoors though, think it's dirty, common and down right unsociable.

Ditz

06-09-2005, 09:21

Originally posted by owlsman
Seconded, nowt but pure SCUM!
Where i work in town, we have the pleasure of seeing used needles just left on the floor.. Disgusting!! :rant:

i know! ud think theyd have the decency of putting it in the bin wudnt ya?:P

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 09:23

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
it doesnt have very much in the way of direct side effects.

Taken from drugs.com website:

Following this initial euphoria, the user experiences an alternately wakeful and drowsy state. Mental functioning becomes clouded due to the depression of the central nervous system. Other effects that heroin may have on users include respiratory depression, constricted pupils and nausea. Effects of heroin overdose include slow and shallow breathing, clammy skin, convulsions, coma, and possible death.

I've also known people coming off the drug to experience stomach pains, fever, emotional upset, suicidal feelings and restlessness.

I think that's enough to be going on with!

jackthedog

06-09-2005, 09:27

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
yes indeed he does. But that is a different argument entirely.

Is it? The guy contributes in his own little way to the whole social nightmare that is heroin addiction.
A business of supply that is in such demand we now have a heroin price war in our city.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 09:27

thats side effects from NOT taking it though.

and overdose, aye, but I be talking about sensible amounts. Its used in hospitals, 'sake!

Don_Kiddick

06-09-2005, 09:31

Use in hospitals is for reversal of cardiac insufficiency, pain relief & the like. It's highly refined not cut full of crap.
Given in small metered doses under clinical observation.

Used in this way the chances of becoming addicted are very minimal indeed.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 09:33

Im fairly sure that morphine addiction can be a problem for people in hospital with serious pain.

My sisters ex just got given a jar full of morphine pills when he was sent home after severely damaging his neck.

It is in essence the same drug, and its the morphine that people get addicted to, not the crap put in junk.

n Jack, I guess he does, but selflessness isnt generally a human quality. lol

jackthedog

06-09-2005, 09:33

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
thats side effects from NOT taking it though.

Is that in reply to Classic Rock's post?
If so, are you kidding me?

If in reply to my post - What??

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 09:35

Side effects from heroin use - particularly for new users - include restlessness, nausea and vomiting. The user may go 'on the nod' or 'gouch out' - going back and forth from appearing fairly alert to almost falling asleep. The pupils of the eye are reduced to pinpricks.

(taken from recovery.org.uk)

jackthedog

06-09-2005, 09:36

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
n Jack, I guess he does, but selflessness isnt generally a human quality. lol

That's a pretty extreme version of lack-of-selflessness though.
Some might call it being devoid of moral value.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 09:51

depends.

I'm gonna use a horribly cliché argument here jack and say that people buying "branded" clothing and non fair trade food are contributing to the exploitation and (in a fair few cases) the horrible and untimely deaths of people in positions that they have no way out of

these selfish people sound like they may be devoid of moral value(TM)

do you fit into this disgraceful category too?

LaylaR

06-09-2005, 09:52

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
Oh, and its nice to see you all have so much empathy for people :)

That's what I was thinking. =/

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 09:53

Yeah, but that's indirect and there are a lot of middle men involved, although a good analogy.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 09:57

ahah! I see! its indirect therefore you can sleep easily at night!

I think we all need a thumbs up for that.

three cheers for the middle men!

jackthedog

06-09-2005, 09:57

Don_Kiddick

06-09-2005, 09:58

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
Im fairly sure that morphine addiction can be a problem for people in hospital with serious pain.

lol
Not witnessed it personally in my 16 years NHS experience, but I wouldn't argue it has never happened without further research :thumbsup:

People receive it for relief of symptoms, not recreational experimentation.

So tend not to assosciate it with a 'high'.

Cocaine paste is used too for cauterising epistaxis (nose bleeds)

Patients get the giggles afterwards but don't go on to be druggies.

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 10:01

I've had morphine once to remove severe pain and it was administered in hospital. The relief was incredible and then I just fell asleep. Never known a pain killer like it.

It didn't really make me want to take it again out in the big wide world, although I do have fond memories of it.

That's the difference, it's knowing your limitations and boundaries. Common sense and nonsense.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 10:01

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
depends.

I'm gonna use a horribly cliché argument here jack and say that people buying "branded" clothing and non fair trade food are contributing to the exploitation and (in a fair few cases) the horrible and untimely deaths of people in positions that they have no way out of

these selfish people sound like they may be devoid of moral value(TM)

do you fit into this disgraceful category too?

I agree with this.

I also think that it is wrong to sterio-type such a large amount of people. Probably 75% of addicts desperatly want to give up.
Unless you know the full life story of the addict how can you just call them "dirty smack rats"?.

Sure, there are people like that but surely not every one addicted to heroin are "smack rats" and they certainly DO NOT deserve to Die.

Alcoholics use up NHS time, should they all DIE too? After all addiction is addiction no matter what it is that you are addicted too.

I hope that this post does not upset any one but i just can not see the justification of some of the statements made in this thread.

kirky

06-09-2005, 10:13

Originally posted by LaylaR
That's what I was thinking. =/

the forum welcomes people from all walks of life even doo gooders, unfortunatley.:rolleyes:

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 10:21

Nothing wrong with a bit of do gooding, or good dooing, or ood gooding or..... sorry, pass me my drugs.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 10:22

on a plus note, a lot of very good music wouldnt have been written had it not been for heroin

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 10:25

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
on a plus note, a lot of very good music wouldnt have been written had it not been for heroin

or the help of a guitar that was in tune.

kirky

06-09-2005, 10:25

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
on a plus note, a lot of very good music wouldnt have been written had it not been for heroin

far out man:hihi:

A.B.Yaffle

06-09-2005, 10:26

Originally posted by kirky
the forum welcomes people from all walks of life even doo gooders, unfortunatley.:rolleyes:

Why are some people so against people who do good? Do you prefer people to do bad to each other?

You right-wing, tree-assaulting, war-mongering, do-badder!;)

nick2

06-09-2005, 10:27

Originally posted by Classic Rock
or the help of a guitar that was in tune.

not forgetting bongo drums.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 10:29

heh

who needs an in tune guitar when you have a junk habit?!

kirky

06-09-2005, 10:31

Originally posted by Patchy
Why are some people so against people who do good? Do you prefer people to do bad to each other?

You right-wing, tree-assaulting, war-mongering, do-badder!;)

how many kiddy fiddlers have been released from jail by do gooders? and how many kids are dead because of soft lefty do gooding social workers.......also rapists and murderers......a little lad a few weeks ago springs to mind.

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 10:34

Well that's the great British justice system. There are so many loopholes and sympathisers out there, also the prisons are full so any method to try to reduce the burden is smiled at.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 10:35

Originally posted by kirky
how many kiddy fiddlers have been released from jail by do gooders? and how many kids are dead because of soft lefty do gooding social workers.......also rapists and murderers......a little lad a few weeks ago springs to mind.

is it fun living in a fantasy, paranoia-induced world?

have you been smoking a little too much of the "wacky baccy"?

kirky

06-09-2005, 10:38

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
is it fun living in a fantasy, paranoia-induced world?

have you been smoking a little too much of the "wacky baccy"?

i don't touch it........horrible stuff

nickrb

06-09-2005, 10:42

Originally posted by kirky
how many jiddy fiddlers have been released from jail by do gooders? and how many kids are dead because of soft lefty do gooding social workers.......also rapists and murderers......a little lad a few weeks ago springs to mind.

Think you may be going off the track a little. I thought this post was about herion, not kiddy fiddlers.

Im sure that there have been many mistakes made by the home office in releasing people before they should be released, and that would go for all sorts of crime.

Now, is being addicted to a substance really a crime? After all, do we send all our alcoholics to jail?

As far as do-gooders go.... we need them here to help out people less fortunate than ourselves. With out do-gooders all addicts would be left to die in the gutter. That includes alcoholics, anorexics, and all the other addicts.....

The key in this discussion is that "Addiction" is a very deep and complicated subject". The people that are addicted (well a majority of them) are desperate to come off the stuff. Thats where the do-gooders come in, in the form of counsilors, re-habs, etc. In this day and age we should give people a chance and try to help out the people in our country who desperatly need and WANT help.

dirtybobby

06-09-2005, 10:45

Originally posted by Patchy
Why are some people so against people who do good?

i think you are confusing the term "do-gooder" with people who do good..

"do-gooders" are typically people who embrace "rights" to the point of ridicule (i.e. oppose animal testing even though it may save human lives, fund terrorist's courts appeals, etc.)..

there is nothing wrong with "doing good" and being kind to your fellow (wo)man :) it's just left wing do-gooders that get on peoples' tits..

nickrb

06-09-2005, 10:46

Originally posted by dirtybobby
i think you are confusing the term "do-gooder" with people who do good..

"do-gooders" are typically people who embrace "human rights" to the point of ridicule (i.e. oppose animal testing even though it may save human lives, fund terrorists courts appeals, etc.)..

there is nothing wrong with "doing good" and being kind to your fellow (wo)man :) it's just left wing do-gooders that get on peoples' tits..

Exactly.

Well put.

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 10:55

[i]

try to help out the people in our country who desperatly need and WANT help. [/B]

That's the key point, they have to WANT help. Some just hit the self destruct button as they don't want to face the uphill path of trying to get off the addiction and the pain it will incur.

I know an alcoholic with some severe emotional problems which then lead to violence, intimidation of others and threats. On days when he's not tanked up he genuinely wants help and realises the pain he causes others, but the addiction has taken over and his willpower is so weak he just turns to the bottle again for comfort the minute a challenge is set for him. He's tried the doctor, been given the diazepam but just uses them as a tool to threaten suicide if he doesn't get the desired effect he wants from people.

What turned him to drink? Poor parenting, bad education, wrong peer group....you name it. Thing is, he hates heroin addicts as they are ADDICTED to something, he cannot see the alcohol as an addiction, but something to enjoy or to use as a tool to annoy others. He's been offered help time and time again but refuses it. He's an emotional wreck who now has brain damage because of the alcohol. It's not a way I'd want to live, nor do I have the skills to help him.

The difficulty with this thread is that it's so easy for non users to criticise, however each circumstance is different. Routes into drug abuse are different for most users. Everyone who uses has a life, a history, happy memories, a bad luck tale, they all had a pet as a child, but they failed to conform to the path that the majority took and are now social deviants.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 11:01

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Classic Rock
[B]That's the key point, they have to WANT help.

Exactly, that is what i was saying.

The problem is that most addicts want help. They just cant admit to themselves that they want help.... Does that make sense?

Anyway, the very very FIRST step in any program for recoverying from an addiction is actually

"ADMITING TO YOURSELF THAT YOU HAVE A PROBLEM"

If the addict can not do this then the bottom line is that NO ONE can help them.

IMO the best way, and only if the addict can addmit to themself that the actually DO have a problem, is a residential rehabilitation centre.

But, the addict HAS to make the first step if anyone is to help him/her.

kirky

06-09-2005, 11:03

Originally posted by dirtybobby
i think you are confusing the term "do-gooder" with people who do good..

"do-gooders" are typically people who embrace "rights" to the point of ridicule (i.e. oppose animal testing even though it may save human lives, fund terrorist's courts appeals, etc.)..

there is nothing wrong with "doing good" and being kind to your fellow (wo)man :) it's just left wing do-gooders that get on peoples' tits..

spot on mate:thumbsup:

nickrb

06-09-2005, 11:08

Here is something to mull over:

Home Office research suggests that for every extra £1 spent on helping addicts, £3 would be saved in dealing with the after-effects of drug-related crime.

For the full article see

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1843776.stm

daverity

06-09-2005, 11:11

THIS STORY (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13430976,00.html) out today shows that Ecstasy pills can be bought for as little as 50 pence in the UK. What we have arrived at now is a situation where the ‘drug barons’ or whatever term you care to use (I prefer scum), have targeted the population of this country to offload their merchandise and establish their markets by making them easily available. I’m sure that a similar story will apply to the price of cocaine and other illegal drugs. Cocaine for instance, up to a few years ago, was a ‘champagne drug’ used by the rich and famous-today it is as easily available as any other and I believe the prices have never been lower.

As a parent of two teenagers, I worry sick that they may become embroiled in society’s drug culture, because it has all become so accessible. While I would be horrified about it happening, they would still get my full support in trying to normalize their lives in whatever way I could, whether that meant them kicking the habit or getting them to some programme which enables them to cope. Some of the comments on this thread about addicts, I think have been totally ill-thought out. Some of the contributors should take a step back and think what if it was my brother, sister, son, daughter, friend etc that were the addicts- would they really treat them so disparagingly? Sure we all hate the by products of drug abuse, burglary, dirty needles being dumped and other things mentioned on this thread, is that a reason to wish death on them?

Temptations for people, particularly the young, have always been there. In my formulative youth (the 1970’s), it was smoking and alcohol both of which I succumbed to (now an ex-smoker) and I’m sure many of today’s contributors did as well. I am also sure that a proportion of us, if we had been born 20 years later may well have been the ‘subject’ of this thread.

I heard a radio story, some months ago about a GP in I think from the Plymouth area, being suspended for prescribing heroin to patients of hers that were addicts. These addicts were required to attend her surgery and take their ‘fix’ there so they could not sell it on. Now this might horrify some people, but she was able to prove that by controlling their supply, many were able to hold down full time jobs and some had even subsequently kicked the habit. She had removed them from the criminality aspect of obtaining heroin and also stopped them receiving methadone (the usual NHS treatment) which was being sold on to other addicts. Food for thought but the point being this turned them from ‘dirty smack rats’, as one person put it, into fairly normal members of society.

dirtybobby

06-09-2005, 11:17

Originally posted by daverity
‘drug barons’ or whatever term you care to use (I prefer scum), have targeted the population of this country to offload their merchandise and establish their markets by making them easily available. I’m sure that a similar story will apply to the price of cocaine and other illegal drugs.

there's light at the end of the tunnel then :hihi:

seriously though; drugs are bad, m'kay? especially when it's £40 a gram! lol

nickrb

06-09-2005, 11:19

Some of the contributors should take a step back and think what if it was my brother, sister, son, daughter, friend etc that were the addicts- would they really treat them so disparagingly? Sure we all hate the by products of drug abuse, burglary, dirty needles being dumped and other things mentioned on this thread, is that a reason to wish death on them?

Hit the nail on the head there. Good one. Nice to see there are compasionate people around who are willing to give people a chance to try and get them selves well again...

LaylaR

06-09-2005, 11:26

Bugger me, some of you people have some rather insane points of view. No offence, I'm just rather surprised.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 11:31

Drink blamed for home abuse rise

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4198690.stm

Interesting.

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 11:41

Originally posted by nickrb
Drink blamed for home abuse rise

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&threadid=58299

Interesting.

That link opens up a reply window :loopy:

JBee

06-09-2005, 11:42

What a surprise. Threads like this always descend into 'do-gooder' bashing by those on this forum with more extreme or less tolerant views.

I don't think you can condemn all heroin users as 'smack rats' who deserve to die just because they've got themselves into a state.

For example, the majority of prostitutes in Sheffield are adicted to heroin. And most of them are hooked because their pimps beat them, threaten them and force them to use, thereby ensuring that they will stay on the game (and make £ for the pimp) to feed their habit. Once they were just scared young girls, like our daughters and friends. Life treated them rough so they ran away/fell in with the wrong crowd/fell in love with a pimp, and the rest is history. These women need help.

Gasp. Shame on me. I'm being one of those god-damned 'do gooders'.

:loopy:

nickrb

06-09-2005, 11:42

Originally posted by Classic Rock
That link opens up a reply window :loopy:

Oops ...

heres the link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4198690.stm

nickrb

06-09-2005, 11:43

Originally posted by Classic Rock
That link opens up a reply window :loopy:

Have now edited that post and inserted the correct url

nickrb

06-09-2005, 11:45

Originally posted by JBee

Gasp. Shame on me. I'm being one of those god-damned 'do gooders'.

:loopy:

And fair play to you for that... I agree with everything you say. I am quite shocked at the way some people have sterio-typed addicts. And calling them such name like "smack rats" etc is just pure ignorence.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 11:53

dave the simple honest truth is that no matter what the price or the availability, if teenagers want to take drugs we will.

The fact that you're worried sick about your children only says to me that you have no respect for their willpower. not everybody who takes a pill in a club has a fantastic time, but theyre not all going to become heroin addicts within 6 months.

its all very well getting drugs education in schools but I sometimes think parents should get some too; it would put their minds at rest I think.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 11:57

its all very well getting drugs education in schools but I sometimes think parents should get some too; it would put their minds at rest I think. [/B]

Carl, you are right there. Us parents could do with some education on how to deal with the possiblity of our children becoming addicted to drugs.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 12:01

no there needs to be some education with regards to the REALITY of the drugs

the general media dont have it right, neither do the people that say there are no dangers, but the number of people I know who have serious issues with their families because of recreational drug use is silly

sloth

06-09-2005, 12:03

www.sheffieldrightwingnuttersforum.co.uk

nickrb

06-09-2005, 12:04

Originally posted by sloth
www.sheffieldrightwingnuttersforum.co.uk

Sloath.... you are a star.. I agree totally with you.

daverity

06-09-2005, 12:19

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
dave the simple honest truth is that no matter what the price or the availability, if teenagers want to take drugs we will.

The fact that you're worried sick about your children only says to me that you have no respect for their willpower. not everybody who takes a pill in a club has a fantastic time, but theyre not all going to become heroin addicts within 6 months.

its all very well getting drugs education in schools but I sometimes think parents should get some too; it would put their minds at rest I think.

The question of respect for my children's willpower has nothing to do with it. As I take it you're not a parent, you will not understand the worries it carries in respect of all aspects of their lives. I could quite easily sit there and spout, 'My kids will never take drugs because I have educated them against it', well I would be a fool if I did and so would anybody else who did the same. As a parent you worry, you worry for your children, not just about drugs but about everything to do with their lives.
My point is that drugs, while not a new phenomena in the world, have never before been so available and cheap, the temptations for the young in particular are huge but there were members of this forum who were quite happy for the unfortunate ones who do succumb to it to die.
I am well aware of the differences between Ecstasy and heroin and that addiction does not automatically follow Carl. The parental concern is that addiction is not the only anxiety here, there have been several cases in recent years of deaths following that one Ecstasy pill- that is scarey.

PS My eldest has just got his first motorbike, worry about that too! Can I say you've got it all to come? Take Care;)

valentine

06-09-2005, 12:21

I used to think like a lot of you, druggies deserve what they get/they bring it on them selves/they have only their selves to blame, all that sort of thing.

Last year we had a house that was taken over by 2 drug addicts squatting, we got them out after a few weeks and went round to inspect the place. (it was 2 weks before xmas)

It was absolutley filthy, there was mouldy food everywhere, tins of food that had been half eaten straight from the tin. The bathroom was like a sewer, I could go on but you get the picture.

I was shocked to see such squalour, but then we returned to our own house, clean and tidy, nice and warm, christmas tree lights twinkling, gifts waiting to be wrapped up.

It then hit me how low some people can sink down to drugs, we would be having a warm and merry xmas while they would be sleeping rough, not knowing what would the next day would bring.

However they got started on drugs isn't really relevant, they are somebodies Sons/brothers/nephews, and if circumstances were different it could be anyone of us.

I am not some do gooder or bleeding heart, but the sight that greeted me last xmas will stay with me forever. and even though I never saw the 2 people I often wonder what happened to them.

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 12:24

I am not a parent, no, but I am a teenager, and I wasn't trying to be insulting to you at all.
The active drug in ecstasy (MDMA) only causes death to people who are very allergic to it (in the same way that somebody may die from a wasp sting).
People do die from taking ecstasy, but a very small number, and a much smaller proportion than those say who get themselves hurt/killed on a night out when they're getting ridiculously drunk.

I guess I've been brought up in a household where honesty is the most important thing. Honesty and understanding .
(and no, we dont meditate every morning, or eat vegan food etc.)
So I'm told that I am to be careful, I'm not put under house arrest or anything like that.

And I'm happy healthy and (relatively) safe.

*shrug*

daverity

06-09-2005, 12:32

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
I am not a parent, no, but I am a teenager, and I wasn't trying to be insulting to you at all.
The active drug in ecstasy (MDMA) only causes death to people who are very allergic to it (in the same way that somebody may die from a wasp sting).
People do die from taking ecstasy, but a very small number, and a much smaller proportion than those say who get themselves hurt/killed on a night out when they're getting ridiculously drunk.

I guess I've been brought up in a household where honesty is the most important thing. Honesty and understanding .
(and no, we dont meditate every morning, or eat vegan food etc.)
So I'm told that I am to be careful, I'm not put under house arrest or anything like that.

And I'm happy healthy and (relatively) safe.

*shrug*

Carl no insult taken, but understand I worry about my children's welfare, as I'm sure your parents do about yours. I'm glad that you enjoy an open relationship with your parents, I'm sure they are relatively as at ease with things as you are but they will still have little worries for you particularly in the teenage years.......it's just a parent thing (humour us). Stay happy, healthy and safe :thumbsup:

kirky

06-09-2005, 12:33

Originally posted by valentine
I used to think like a lot of you, druggies deserve what they get/they bring it on them selves/they have only their selves to blame, all that sort of thing.

Last year we had a house that was taken over by 2 drug addicts squatting, we got them out after a few weeks and went round to inspect the place. (it was 2 weks before xmas)

It was absolutley filthy, there was mouldy food everywhere, tins of food that had been half eaten straight from the tin. The bathroom was like a sewer, I could go on but you get the picture.

I was shocked to see such squalour, but then we returned to our own house, clean and tidy, nice and warm, christmas tree lights twinkling, gifts waiting to be wrapped up.

It then hit me how low some people can sink down to drugs, we would be having a warm and merry xmas while they would be sleeping rough, not knowing what would the next day would bring.

However they got started on drugs isn't really relevant, they are somebodies Sons/brothers/nephews, and if circumstances were different it could be anyone of us.

I am not some do gooder or bleeding heart, but the sight that greeted me last xmas will stay with me forever. and even though I never saw the 2 people I often wonder what happened to them.

your lucky,while you were viewing their filth and disgusting mess they might have ben nicking your presents from under the tree...(this happened to my neighbour 2 years ago)...wonder what your thoughts would have been then?

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 12:37

kirky i would like to point out that your location is very accurate

JonJParr

06-09-2005, 12:40

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
I am not a parent, no, but I am a teenager, and I wasn't trying to be insulting to you at all.
The active drug in ecstasy (MDMA) only causes death to people who are very allergic to it (in the same way that somebody may die from a wasp sting).
People do die from taking ecstasy, but a very small number, and a much smaller proportion than those say who get themselves hurt/killed on a night out when they're getting ridiculously drunk.

I guess I've been brought up in a household where honesty is the most important thing. Honesty and understanding .
(and no, we dont meditate every morning, or eat vegan food etc.)
So I'm told that I am to be careful, I'm not put under house arrest or anything like that.

And I'm happy healthy and (relatively) safe.

*shrug*

You're failing to acknowledge that a lot of deaths from E occur because the person taking it either drinks too much or too little water.

Perhaps it's just me but I really can't understand the attraction of taking ecstasy, ketamine or heroin. I don't need a fake sense of euphoria to enjoy myself. How come other people do? What's the fun of not being able to eat anything for 24hrs after taking ecstasy because your stomach has shrunk as a result of the speed. Even if you eat bananas and drink milk you still feel the depression that's as a result of depleted serotonin levels in the synapses. Why put yourself through it? Is it really worth it? Throw into the equation the chance that it could, potentially, kill you and it starts to look less and less appealing.

JBee

06-09-2005, 12:42

Carl and Dave, your posts are very interesting. Dave, I understand your concerns, but I tend to agree with Carl.

I never dabbled with anything more excited than cannabis as a teen, but I know plenty of friends that did, and they have all gone on to lead healthy, drug-free lives with good careers ect.

Now before everyone jumps on me, I'm not advocating drug use. I avoided them myself. I used to be a regular Crasher kid and the only one of my friends not high as a kite about a decade ago! But I chose to steer clear of pills and coke because I reasoned that I had enough fun without it.

But it's very rare that a bit of teenage experimentation in otherwise mentally stable individuals will lead to a habit. Most adicts take drugs because there is something seriously wrong with another area of their lives. And as Carl pointed out, teens today are much more likely to die of alcohol poisoning, heart faliure or suffocation as a result of binge drinking.

StarSparkle

06-09-2005, 12:42

Originally posted by valentine
I used to think like a lot of you, druggies deserve what they get/they bring it on them selves/they have only their selves to blame, all that sort of thing.

Last year we had a house that was taken over by 2 drug addicts squatting, we got them out after a few weeks and went round to inspect the place. (it was 2 weks before xmas)

It was absolutley filthy, there was mouldy food everywhere, tins of food that had been half eaten straight from the tin. The bathroom was like a sewer, I could go on but you get the picture.

I was shocked to see such squalour, but then we returned to our own house, clean and tidy, nice and warm, christmas tree lights twinkling, gifts waiting to be wrapped up.

It then hit me how low some people can sink down to drugs, we would be having a warm and merry xmas while they would be sleeping rough, not knowing what would the next day would bring.

However they got started on drugs isn't really relevant, they are somebodies Sons/brothers/nephews, and if circumstances were different it could be anyone of us.

I am not some do gooder or bleeding heart, but the sight that greeted me last xmas will stay with me forever. and even though I never saw the 2 people I often wonder what happened to them.

As you so rightly say, Valentine, if circumstances had been different, it could potentially have been any one of us.

To those of you who use emotive and uncaring terms like 'smack rats' - Can you imagine the hopelessness and pain these people must have been in to become addicted to heroin in the first place? What must their lives have been like? To end up living in such squalor and degredation to numb their pain?

Just thank the Lord your life hasn't been so awful that you've ended up like that.

Have some humanity.

StarSparkle

kirky

06-09-2005, 12:45

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
kirky i would like to point out that your location is very accurate

thank you:D

nickrb

06-09-2005, 12:47

Originally posted by kirky
your lucky,while you were viewing their filth and disgusting mess they might have ben nicking your presents from under the tree...(this happened to my neighbour 2 years ago)...wonder what your thoughts would have been then?

Kirky,

You are really not genned up on this subject at all. I would suggest that before posting such statements you do your research.

Yes, it is a well know fact that addicts will go to extremes in obtaining their fix. But not all addicts steal preasents from under xmas trees.

My mother has been an anorexic as long as i can remember. She occasionally stole our sweets when we we kids as that was part of her addiction. We did not think badly of her. All we thought was that she was not well at all and that she needed all the help we could give her. Unfortunatly, she was not really to be helped because she could never admit to herself that she had such a sever problem.

My advice to you, and no offence intended, is that if you are going to start a thread off like this one, you at least do a little research on the subject. Because if you dont research your subject you could end up looking the fool.

valentine

06-09-2005, 12:47

Originally posted by kirky
your lucky,while you were viewing their filth and disgusting mess they might have ben nicking your presents from under the tree...(this happened to my neighbour 2 years ago)...wonder what your thoughts would have been then?

Well they didn't, but perhaps if I had been a victim of theft I may think different, but I haven't so I don't.

All I can base my current opinion on is the fact that these 2 young men had families out there, and maybe they were to far gone to notice. The families may have gone through hell and back with them and could have even thrown them out. I don't know there personal details, but surely most addicts have families that are "victims" as well

I was just trying to explain my feelings on the matter.

And I don't think for one minute anyone takes there first hit with the intention of ruining their life/taking up stealing/living rough, they think they can handle it, just like most alcoholics taking their first drink don't see a problem or most smokers not realising that 20 years down the line they will be struggling to kick the habit.

They try it for many different reasons and all of them think they won't get hooked.

JonJParr

06-09-2005, 12:49

Originally posted by nickrb
Kirky,

Yes, it is a well know fact that addicts will go to extremes in obtaining their fix. But not all addicts steal preasents from under xmas trees.

I don't think he suggested that they do. He said they "might" have been stealing your presents from under the tree. Who's the bigger fool?

nickrb

06-09-2005, 12:54

This thread is up to page 7. There have been some very valid points and some totally outrageous points made.

One question I have:

Does anyone here have first hand experience of this issue?

I mean, has anyone had a herion addiction, or has anyone got immediate familly or close friends with this problem?

Are there any people on this forum with a heroin addiction?

Now, I just think that it would be interesting to here from people with first hand experience before we throw all of these names at these people.

After all, the bottom line is that these people we are talking about have an illness that they are battling with. This should not be thought of as a crime.

JBee

06-09-2005, 12:55

Originally posted by JonJParr
Who's the bigger fool?

Uh oh. Now JohnJParr is trying to drag us all into the playground for a good old fashioned slagging match. How very mature and democratic. :suspect:

I could answer your question JP... But I won't.

kirky

06-09-2005, 12:58

My advice to you, and no offence intended, is that if you are going to start a thread off like this one, you at least do a little research on the subject. Because if you dont research your subject you could end up looking the fool.

i started the thread coz i heard it on the news,i havn't pretended to be an expert coz i aint,ive just added my personel feelings as the thread grew........i have had to watch my mother in law come home from holiday to empty bare house stripped of all it contents even the carpets ,also my nephew walking round looking for his play station,i could go on and on......not just in our family but loads of my customers/neighbours (usualluy old folk)....so before you start calling people fools you do a bit of reserch into the victims of this scum.

JBee

06-09-2005, 12:58

Originally posted by nickrb
This thread is up to page 7. There have been some very valid points and some totally outrageous points made.

One question I have:

Does anyone here have first hand experience of this issue?

I mean, has anyone had a herion addiction, or has anyone got immediate familly or close friends with this problem?

Are there any people on this forum with a heroin addiction?

Now, I just think that it would be interesting to here from people with first hand experience before we throw all of these names at these people.

After all, the bottom line is that these people we are talking about have an illness that they are battling with. This should not be thought of as a crime.

The only experience I have is writing a few features on heroin adiction, both in Sheffield and elsewhere. I've interviewed addicted prostitutes, recovered addicts, addicts families, the police, those who have to live with addicts in their area, and project workers trying to help them.

My comments are based on what I learned from this.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 13:00

[i] Who's the bigger fool? [/B]

I am not saying Kirky is a fool. I am just saying that if someone doesnt know research their subject before opening a thread then they "COULD" look a fool....

JonJParr

06-09-2005, 13:01

Originally posted by nickrb
After all, the bottom line is that these people we are talking about have an illness that they are battling with. This should not be thought of as a crime.

That's a load of tosh Nickrb. Heroin addiction isn't an illness because it's brought upon one's self. It's an absolute disgrace that heroin addiction can now be labeled under the same category as cancer. The myth [created by do-gooding wishy washy namby pambies] that an addiction is some sort of illness that one cannot avoid is utter crap and insults all those who, through no fault of their own have debilitating diseases such as Parkinsons, Alzheimers or cancer.

JBee

06-09-2005, 13:01

***Sigh***

Is there any chance we can get off the 'who's the fool' topic now? It's starting to get a bit tedious.

BrainThrust

06-09-2005, 13:02

Originally posted by JonJParr
You're failing to acknowledge that a lot of deaths from E occur because the person taking it either drinks too much or too little water.

Perhaps it's just me but I really can't understand the attraction of taking ecstasy, ketamine or heroin. I don't need a fake sense of euphoria to enjoy myself. How come other people do? What's the fun of not being able to eat anything for 24hrs after taking ecstasy because your stomach has shrunk as a result of the speed. Even if you eat bananas and drink milk you still feel the depression that's as a result of depleted serotonin levels in the synapses. Why put yourself through it? Is it really worth it? Throw into the equation the chance that it could, potentially, kill you and it starts to look less and less appealing.

Jon, I can see where you're coming from here but I'm not going to get into a drugs debate again.

I don't need a fake sense of euphoria from a drug to have a good time, and yet I still will once in a while taken them. The reason for this is that the fake euphoria from such a drug is so ridiculously strong that it is unlikely that it can be naturally induced in all but the rarest situations. I pay the comedown price gladly because of that feeling, I think it is worth it to experience a feeling that may come only once or twice naturally. True this is not for everyone and so you need to think long and hard about why you are taking the drug, if it is to have a good time, or experimentation, or because you need to. Two of those reasons are unacceptable to my viewpoint, so if i find myself thinking them, I don't do it.

As for potentially killing me, yes, it could, so could climbing down the stairs, it isn't like I need to go up stairs to have a good time. In fact more people do die from falling down the stairs than taking Ecstasy. I don't have to cook food, which could kill me if incorrectly done, yet I still do. Both of these are wild comments but I'm just trying to prove a point. We do a lot of things that can kill us if we aren't careful and enter into doing them without forethought and knowledge.

As for those who go onto harder and harder drugs, I worry about them, I am scared of them, I pity them and have trouble understanding them. I don't see myself as different to them except in terms perhaps of susceptibility to addiction and life experience. I can't comprehend the steps that lead to such a bleak existence and hope I never will. On the other hand, I don't like what they do to fund their habit. Unlike some posts I have read, I think they are still people but they are lost behind a raging addiction that demands so much from them they lose aspects of their humanity.

I don't see any easy fix to this and I don't see how we can help someone whose own life is so tragic that the momentary respite from a hard opiate is their only form of escape.

And before it is said, yes, I am a do-gooder. I don't see what makes people spit this word, why is doing good such a bad thing? If living a life of greed and hate is the alternative, I'd rather stick to your meaningless insults and know in my head I'm living a more compassionate lifestyle.

Wilf

LornaF

06-09-2005, 13:10

with response to daverity on the GP dispensing heroin. This supply of clinical heroin is running low due to NHS supply problems and for the 300+ people who receive it from thier GP's its very bad news. As the supplies that are left are earmarked for people in extreme pain etc. Now these addicts are having to go back to the streets to find their find their fix, one addict has already run up debts and his family life is suffering.
(This story appeared in the Guardian a few weeks ago).
One reader wrote in to say that the doctors who supply these addicts are nothing more than legal dealers to which i totally agree.
I don't believe its a solution to supply heroin or its substitutes as it gives people the idea that they don't have to play in soceity like everyone else.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 13:13

Originally posted by JonJParr
That's a load of tosh Nickrb. Heroin addiction isn't an illness because it's brought upon one's self. It's an absolute disgrace that heroin addiction can now be labeled under the same category as cancer. The myth [created by do-gooding wishy washy namby pambies] that an addiction is some sort of illness that one cannot avoid is utter crap and insults all those who, through no fault of their own have debilitating diseases such as Parkinsons, Alzheimers or cancer.

So, if it is not an illness what is it? And what would you class alcoholism? or anorexia... After all, both those are self inflicted...

God, this is ridiculeous....

Definitions of addiction on the Web:

An illness in which a person seeks and consumes a substance, such as alcohol, tobacco or a drug, despite the fact that it causes harm.
www.painconnection.org/MyEducation/MayoClinic_glossary.asp

StarSparkle

06-09-2005, 13:15

Originally posted by JonJParr
That's a load of tosh Nickrb. Heroin addiction isn't an illness because it's brought upon one's self. It's an absolute disgrace that heroin addiction can now be labeled under the same category as cancer. The myth [created by do-gooding wishy washy namby pambies] that an addiction is some sort of illness that one cannot avoid is utter crap and insults all those who, through no fault of their own have debilitating diseases such as Parkinsons, Alzheimers or cancer.

Sorry to say this, JonJParr, but you don't know what the f*** you're talking about. :rant:

Just be grateful you haven't got an addictive-type personality - or you wouldn't be lecturing from your lofty moral ivory tower.

Having a biochemical imbalance in your brain that causes obsessive-compulsive disorder, for example, is just as much beyond an individual's control as having Parkinson's, and a sufferer requires help with it to live a reasonably normal life. Or clinical depression that can also be caused by biochemical imbalances in the brain - is that a person's own fault? A person suffering from that may be driven to self-medicate in desperation. Perhaps heroin may wrongly be seen as some kind of answer.

I thought more of you.

StarSparkle

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 13:15

Originally posted by nickrb

Does anyone here have first hand experience of this issue?

I mean, has anyone had a herion addiction, or has anyone got immediate familly or close friends with this problem?

Yes, I've lived with a heroin addict, I've also lived with an alcoholic. Both I stress were friends and not partners. I feel that qualifies any points I have made.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 13:20

Originally posted by Classic Rock
Yes, I've lived with a heroin addict, I've also lived with an alcoholic. Both I stress were friends and not partners. I feel that qualifies any points I have made.

I have no problem with the points you made as they are all valid and well thought through.

I just cannot understand peoples comments like the such of Kirky and JonJParr. Pure rubbish if you ask me.

JonJParr

06-09-2005, 13:26

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Sorry to say this, JonJParr, but you don't know what the f*** you're talking about. :rant:

It's funny that - I know nothing because I don't agree with your point of view. Interesting.

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Just be grateful you haven't got an addictive-type personality - or you wouldn't be lecturing from your lofty moral ivory tower.

Who's to say I haven't? Some people who know me say that I have an addiction to buying wine . However, if I couldn't afford this hobby and was plundering myself deeper into debt I wouldn't excuse my behaviour by arguing I have an, "addictive-type personality". That's not lofty - to me it's common sense. If I know something has the potential to destroy my life [ie. through using heroin or indeed buying too much expensive wine] I'll avoid it. Is that a lofty viewpoint? If it is then it's a badge I wear with pride.

[i]Originally posted by StarSparkle
I thought more of you.

I'm a Conservative hardliner - what did you expect? I won't apologise for my views [nor do I expect you to apologise for yours].

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 13:29

"That's a load of tosh Nickrb. Heroin addiction isn't an illness because it's brought upon one's self. It's an absolute disgrace that heroin addiction can now be labeled under the same category as cancer. The myth [created by do-gooding wishy washy namby pambies] that an addiction is some sort of illness that one cannot avoid is utter crap and insults all those who, through no fault of their own have debilitating diseases such as Parkinsons, Alzheimers or cancer."

it is a problem that has been caused through choice

Cancer of the lungs, throat or mouth, caused by a choice to smoke cigarettes. Maybe we should throw all these cancer patients out of hospital because they made a choice to kill themselves!

Dirty cancer rats!!

Some research points that alzheimers can be made more likely by eating certain foodstuffs, how about we throw all those senile old bats out of the nursing homes because they ate the wrong diet when they were younger?

dirtybobby

06-09-2005, 13:31

Originally posted by JonJParr
Perhaps it's just me but I really can't understand the attraction of taking ecstasy, ketamine or heroin. I don't need a fake sense of euphoria to enjoy myself.

i hate it when people say this.. it makes absolutely no sense..

i don't need ketchup to enjoy my chips, but it sure as hell makes them taste better.. i don't need my car to get around, but it sure as hell makes travelling more fun.. i don't need to drink when i go out with my mates, but i enjoy the relaxation and joviality that it produces..

i don't need mdma to enjoy myself, but i sure as hell love the gentle, warm, empathetic feelings of bliss it imparts on me..

jon, you don't need to post on the forum to communicate with likeminded people, but you enjoy doing so..

and before anyone starts giving it "but posting on a forum doesn't damage your health," - health doesn't come into it.. if the OP had said "i don't take ecstasy because i am worried about it affecting my health" then fine.. i can completely understand that.. but he didn't.. he, like so many others, said "why do you need drugs to fill your empty lives? i get by just fine without them"..

i get by just fine without cigarettes.. many people, on the other hand, love to smoke them*..

anyway, sorry for the massive derail.. this was discussed in detail here (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56574)..

*=actually, that's a poor analogy on my part, as cigarettes are heavily addictive, whilst ecstasy is not..

StarSparkle

06-09-2005, 13:34

Originally posted by JonJParr
I'm a Conservative hardliner - what did you expect? I won't apologise for my views [nor do I expect you to apologise for yours].

I have nothing to apologise for.

StarSparkle

JonJParr

06-09-2005, 13:35

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
Cancer of the lungs, throat or mouth, caused by a choice to smoke cigarettes.

Couldn't agree with you more Carl! That's why I specifically didn't mention them.

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
Some research points that alzheimers can be made more likely by eating certain foodstuffs

One piece of 'research' maybe but most 'non-fad' research NO.

JonJParr

06-09-2005, 13:36

Originally posted by StarSparkle
I have nothing to apologise for.

And equally I feel the same. Agree to disagree?

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 13:37

so Jon you'd be happy for lung cancer patients to be thrown onto the streets and labelled morally devoid?

JonJParr

06-09-2005, 13:38

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
so Jon you'd be happy for lung cancer patients to be thrown onto the streets and labelled morally devoid?

Look at what I quoted and then check back, to my knowledge I've never advocated throwing anyone out on the street [drug user or otherwise]. I agree with your sentiment that lung, mouth and throat cancer as a result of smoking is self-inflicted - that is all.

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 13:38

Then again, playing devil's advocate here, research hasn't uncovered quite what causes cancer. We all know that heroin and alcohol problems are self induced, however we don't yet know if something can be avoided which causes cancer. Smoking allegedly causes it even aspertame in diet drinks is supposed to cause it. There are always health scares.

At the end of the day, as a humane society the system dictates that all illnesses whether self inflicted, genetic or evolved are to be treated. None should take presedence over another. One person should not suffer more than another simply because they have caused their own illness.

If you want to follow that guideline then by driving a car and being hurt in a RTA which you caused should be punishable and should lower you down the medical waiting list because you shouldn't drive a car as it harms the environment and others around you. By being depressed and taking a drugs overdose shouldn't allow you treatment as you've made your decision and should be allowed to just die. By having eaten loads of pies, become obese and contracted heart disease should lower you down the medical waiting list as that's self induced.

If you want to talk passive suicide then look at long term drinkers, drug users, poor diets and lack of exercise (that's most of the people who post on here I would speculate) and people living in cities who inhale pollution and fumes.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 13:42

Originally posted by Classic Rock

At the end of the day, as a humane society the system dictates that all illnesses whether self inflicted, genetic or evolved are to be treated. None should take presedence over another. One person should not suffer more than another simply because they have caused their own illness.

SPOT ON...

apalled

06-09-2005, 13:46

I find it totally astonishing that such a high number of you are able to generalise about something you clearly know so little about. Your 'knowledge' is clearly based on public hear-say and the sensationalist press.

I come from a very comfortable, middle class extended family. Last July, my Dad's sister died from the combined effects of alcohol and heroine addiction. This was what happened:

She was a qualified and practising nurse, working in an NHS hospital, with a promising career ahead of her. About 18 years ago, she started seeing a bloke, which is where it all started to go wrong. Firstly he was abusive - he'd hit her, push her around etc.,. and as a result she turned to drink, resulting in her losing her job. She tried to leave him but he wouldn't allow her to do so. It soon transpired that he a drug dealer, and it gradually transpired that he was in fact quite a high level gangster (heard of the film Essex Boys? he was involved in that gang). He soon had her running errands for him and she slowly became addicted to the bad stuff. They had a daughter at around this time too.

My grandparents eventually fell in with what was going on - my grandad had by this time retired from the police force. And so they started a 15 year cycle, during which she burgled their house and our's, stealing my mum's wedding ring and other intimate, personal items. She was in and out of prison, and Iain, the gangster boyfriend eventually went down for ten years (of which he served 6, he's now out, doing god knows what). My grandparents and my dad and uncle tried everything they could to get her off it...rehab centres, bought her flats away from the mates she had fallen in with, kept her housebound with them. But nothing worked.

She ultimately died from a stomach bleed, predominantly caused by her alcohol abuse, last July as I said, having spent most of the last two years in hospital, her liver slowly collapsing, suffering from herpes, hep C and who knows what else.

Her daughter, my cousin, is and addict and has recently had a baby, born addicted.

This all boils down to the abusive relationship of 18 years ago, the effect it had in terms of physical addiction and personal, psycological damage that could never be repaired.

So think about that next time you describe them as smack-rats or whatever. She did some unimaginably awful things, and the feelings of guilt, remorse, regret, you name it left with my family, will never disappear. But, whilst there may have been something she could have done at some point to escape, she was the victim of a terrible situation, largely beyond her control.

I want to make it clear that I'm not seeking sympathy. I just want people to have more of an understanding of the horrific illness, psycological and physical, that is addiction.

Thanks.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 13:50

Originally posted by apalled

I want to make it clear that I'm not seeking sympathy. I just want people to have more of an understanding of the horrific illness, psycological and physical, that is addiction.

Thanks.

Exactly. Well said. I agree alot of the statements on here are apauling and too generalised.

Addicts of any nature have an illness, mentle and physical. We need to recognise this as an illness and not as people who are "Smack Rats".

Classic Rock

06-09-2005, 13:53

Well written apalled, and welcome to the Forum, hopefully your future posts and threads will be of a happier nature.

This just reinforces my point that those who are addicted or perhaps have dabbled and not become addicted all have tales to tell and reasons for involvement. We are not all strong characters, we have weaknesses, we all handle them differently.

I used to know a girl who went mad with credit cards, shopping all the time on the internet and the high street. I know a guy with gambling problems - again these are all respectable people but have a weakness, an addition. Fortunately the last two managed to over come their weakness. She cut up her card and self disciplined herself. He still falls by the wayside at times but now just sticks to fruit machines in the pub rather than heading to the casino.

valentine

06-09-2005, 13:56

Apalled, this is really a tragic story that just goes to show not all addicts come from single parents on council estates and deserve their place in the gutter.

As I said in one of my previous posts if circumstances were different it could be anyone of us.

If all drug users were lowlifes, how do you explain the number of very famous pop/rock and film stars that have tragic deaths due to drugs.

When high profile people with all the best life has to offer die of a drugs overdose, what chance do ordinary people who fall in with the wrong types or just happen to fall in love with the wrong person have.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 14:01

Originally posted by Classic Rock
Well written apalled, and welcome to the Forum, hopefully your future posts and threads will be of a happier nature.

This just reinforces my point that those who are addicted or perhaps have dabbled and not become addicted all have tales to tell and reasons for involvement. We are not all strong characters, we have weaknesses, we all handle them differently.

I used to know a girl who went mad with credit cards, shopping all the time on the internet and the high street. I know a guy with gambling problems - again these are all respectable people but have a weakness, an addition. Fortunately the last two managed to over come their weakness. She cut up her card and self disciplined herself. He still falls by the wayside at times but now just sticks to fruit machines in the pub rather than heading to the casino.

Yep, exactly. Addiction comes in many shapes and sizes. Unffortunatly for us humans, some addictions are more damaging to our bodies that others. But that said, addictions sohould be treated as illnesses because that is exactly what it is.

StarSparkle

06-09-2005, 14:05

Originally posted by nickrb
Exactly. Well said. I agree alot of the statements on here are apauling and too generalised.

Addicts of any nature have an illness, mentle and physical. We need to recognise this as an illness and not as people who are "Smack Rats".

Exactly.

As a society we should be trying to help addicts - not vilifying them, and talking about them as though they're less than human.

StarSparkle

nickrb

06-09-2005, 14:10

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Exactly.

As a society we should be trying to help addicts - not vilifying them, and talking about them as though they're less than human.

StarSparkle

Thank you starspakle im glad that you and a couple of others agree with me. We should help our fellow citizens that are not as fortunate as ourselves. I have a lot of experience with people with addictions, anorexic / bulminic mother, alcoholic grandfather etc. I would never label / sterio-type people with problems like this. They have such a hard time battling with themselves the last thing they need is to battle with people who refer to them as "Smack rats etc"

barny_100

06-09-2005, 14:23

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
depends.

I'm gonna use a horribly cliché argument here jack and say that people buying "branded" clothing and non fair trade food are contributing to the exploitation and (in a fair few cases) the horrible and untimely deaths of people in positions that they have no way out of

these selfish people sound like they may be devoid of moral value(TM)

do you fit into this disgraceful category too?

What would the people that work in the factorys do if the factories closed down? I think you would find they would then struggle to find another job - everytime you buy something it's contributing to employing other people. Perhaps the amount of money taken at each stage of production is seen by you as unfair but I've seen a report on local wage structures in those far eastern countries you're refrering to that clearly showed those jobs were "good money" for those areas.

Proof is that they don't seem to struggle for staff do they?

Poor comparison for the supply and demand issue you were replying to...

kirky

06-09-2005, 14:26

now i'm lost:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

nickrb

06-09-2005, 14:27

Originally posted by kirky
now i'm lost:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Didnt take long did it... lol

StarSparkle

06-09-2005, 14:29

Originally posted by nickrb
Thank you starspakle im glad that you and a couple of others agree with me. We should help our fellow citizens that are not as fortunate as ourselves. I have a lot of experience with people with addictions, anorexic / bulminic mother, alcoholic grandfather etc. I would never label / sterio-type people with problems like this. They have such a hard time battling with themselves the last thing they need is to battle with people who refer to them as "Smack rats etc"

You're absolutely right, Nickrb.

People who are fortunate enough not to have been born with an addictive personality have no conception of what it's like to be fighting yourself and your demons all the time. What it's like to go to bed every night having fought a war with yourself all day.

Add to that the judgemental and ignorant attitude of so many people.....

Sometimes all it takes to keep an addictive personality under control, and no longer presenting a problem, is for a sufferer to be on the right dose of the right medication for them. (Under medical supervision). THIS is where I feel society's efforts in this area should be going - pouring resources into medical research to come up with solutions that can help all addicts control their addiction(s).

They are victims of their own biochemisty.

StarSparkle

Carl_Malibu

06-09-2005, 14:29

Originally posted by barny_100
What would the people that work in the factorys do if the factories closed down? I think you would find they would then struggle to find another job - everytime you buy something it's contributing to employing other people. Perhaps the amount of money taken at each stage of production is seen by you as unfair but I've seen a report on local wage structures in those far eastern countries you're refrering to that clearly showed those jobs were "good money" for those areas.

Proof is that they don't seem to struggle for staff do they?

Poor comparison for the supply and demand issue you were replying to...

I'm not talking about supply and demand I'm talking about "moral fibre".

Read into the murders committed by thugs of workers in Columbia that spoke out against coca cola.
half the world live on nothing, and we have excess of everything, I would say thats morally devoid.
But we're off topic.

kirky

06-09-2005, 14:30

well i just nipped out and the subjects changed from drugs to shopping:hihi:

JBee

06-09-2005, 14:32

Originally posted by JBee
I don't think you can condemn all heroin users as 'smack rats' who deserve to die just because they've got themselves into a state.

For example, the majority of prostitutes in Sheffield are adicted to heroin. And most of them are hooked because their pimps beat them, threaten them and force them to use, thereby ensuring that they will stay on the game (and make £ for the pimp) to feed their habit. Once they were just scared young girls, like our daughters and friends. Life treated them rough so they ran away/fell in with the wrong crowd/fell in love with a pimp, and the rest is history. These women need help.
:loopy:

Appalled - I posted this on this thread a few hours ago. While I realise that the girl you speak of wasn't a prostitute, I think the sentiments about people falling in love with the wrong person or getting in with the wrong crowd ring true.

I'm very glad you took the time to post your story on this Forum. Perhaps some of the narrow-minded fools who have been labelling heroin addicts as 'rats' or 'scum' will finally be able to see this issue with a bit more humanity. Or at least understand that the factors behind addiction are not always as clear-cut as they'd like to think.

Of course, there will always be some who are totally unable to feel empathy or aknowledge that they've been too hasty in their judgement. An no doubt they will be only to happy to show who they are by continuing to post their narrow-minded views below.
:loopy:

But hopefully your story will have made an impact with some of them.:thumbsup:

apalled

06-09-2005, 14:41

Let's hope! I can understand if you don't give it much thought, the appearance of desperate people on the streets, begging and stealing makes people feel angry and intolerant. But noone sets out with the aim of becoming a drug addict. You have to consider what lies beneath the surface and has led them to this situation, and that once they're there they are ill and need support and understanding, not to be called scum and told to crawl back under their rock.

Slightly regretting username now...only really appropriate for one post. Don't want everyone thinking I'm generally apalled with everything all the time!

nickrb

06-09-2005, 14:43

Originally posted by StarSparkle
You're absolutely right, Nickrb.

People who are fortunate enough not to have been born with an addictive personality have no conception of what it's like to be fighting yourself and your demons all the time. What it's like to go to bed every night having fought a war with yourself all day.

Add to that the judgemental and ignorant attitude of so many people.....

Sometimes all it takes to keep an addictive personality under control, and no longer presenting a problem, is for a sufferer to be on the right dose of the right medication for them. (Under medical supervision). THIS is where I feel society's efforts in this area should be going - pouring resources into medical research to come up with solutions that can help all addicts control their addiction(s).

They are victims of their own biochemisty.

StarSparkle

Thank you starsparkle, It is really nice to find someone who has a logical approach to this subject.

You are spot on that alot of people truely do not know what its like to fight your demons all day, then have all night to do the same while you toss and turn, colds sweats, etc. And all these sufferers ever want is to be what they class as NORMAL.... ie .. WELL.

They know they have a problem, they just cant find it in them to help themselves.. Thats when they desperatly need the help of others.

slimsid2000

06-09-2005, 14:56

I hate to say "I told you so" (we no actually I enjoy saying it:hihi: ) but I have pointed out at lengh before how unpleasant drug abuse is.

If Sheffield really is the worst place in the country then it is a pretty unwelcome accolade to have.

scottf

06-09-2005, 14:57

It can't be- surely- worksop is far worse for drugs!

Thats a suprise!

nickrb

06-09-2005, 15:00

Originally posted by kirky
in the uk...£25 a gram apparently,in mu opinion it should be free and 100 per cent pure,then the dirty fillthy smack rats can have as much as they like and kill themselves while they are at it.....problem solved:thumbsup:

Kirky,

Thank you for such an interesting thread. I am off home now after a day of posting to this thread.

There has been much debate on this. But it would appear that the answer is not to just let people die, but to actually try to help.

You never know which of your friends / family could suffer from this ILLNESS in the future. I hope you are lucky and it doesnt affect any of your family or friends. I on the other hand havent been so lucky and have members of my family suffering from addiction. I have a lot of friends that either suffer from addiction, have been killed from their addiction or, on the happier side of things I have friends who are RECOVERING addicts..... I say "Recovering" because an addict is never recovered but is always recovering.

Thanks for the days debate... Its been intriguing.

dirtybobby

06-09-2005, 15:10

Originally posted by slimsid2000
I hate to say "I told you so" (we no actually I enjoy saying it:hihi: ) but I have pointed out at lengh before how unpleasant drug abuse is.

If Sheffield really is the worst place in the country then it is a pretty unwelcome accolade to have.

as you have pointed out before, you've never taken drugs, been around drugs, or indeed have any knowledge of drugs or drug use.. these are all things you are very proud of (fair enough; i wouldn't encourage drug use with anyone, it's a choice to be made of one's own free will)..

if, as you so proudly and repetitively proclaim, you have absolutely no knowledge of drug culture, how can you possibly comment on it?

do not come into this thread with your socially inept musings and spoil an otherwise interesting and adult debate..

LornaF

06-09-2005, 15:11

My partner used to be on heroin, before i met him and now when he see's people living that life he does feel sorry for them but is equally disgusted by it.
People he was in rehab with sorted their lives out and got back on track but others for whatever reason are still in the cycle.
We both consider this to be a total waste of public time and money and there are more worthwhile people who deserve the attention such as those born with disabilities whose problems are not self inflicted.
At the end of the day its a lifestyle choice, and as the morals of society slip even further now is the time for people to take responsibility for their own actions.
Its just not good enough to say 'i had a bad upbringing' or 'i was deprived/abused' because plenty of people have bad life experiences and its not an excuse to take it out on the rest of society

superchrome

06-09-2005, 15:15

Originally posted by IanMitchell
I'm sure I will mate- but you have to think how awful it must be in their position.

Do they deserve to die for it? No- they need help on the road to recovery. ***k recovery mate they've had enough chances to recover,they like to be high all the time,if u havn't got a job then you cant expect to pay for your drugs every day its common sence,its us who are sick of bieng robbed and constantly harrased for money,give them the drugs for free so they can stay in one place or lock them all up.

slimsid2000

06-09-2005, 15:16

Originally posted by dirtybobby
as you have pointed out before, you've never taken drugs, been around drugs, or indeed have any knowledge of drugs or drug use.. these are all things you are very proud of (fair enough; i wouldn't encourage drug use with anyone, it's a choice to be made of one's own free will)..

if, as you so proudly and repetitively proclaim, you have absolutely no knowledge of drug culture, how can you possibly comment on it?

do not come into this thread with your socially inept musings and spoil an otherwise interesting and adult debate..

I might ask you the same about celibacy. If you have ever had sex how can you ever be in a possition to judge a man who never has?

dirtybobby

06-09-2005, 15:16

Originally posted by LornaF
My partner used to be on heroin ... People he was in rehab with sorted their lives out ... We both consider this to be a total waste of public time and money and there are more worthwhile people who deserve the attention such as those born with disabilities whose problems are not self inflicted.

whilst i don't necessarily disagree with you, i'm a little confused by your fella's hypocrisy :confused:

so, he disagrees with the rehab system from which he directly benefitted and which helped him reclaim his life??

dirtybobby

06-09-2005, 15:20

Originally posted by slimsid2000
I might ask you the same about celibacy. If you have ever had sex how can you ever be in a possition to judge a man who never has?

you idiot.. you absolute idiot.. look at what you have written..

you are not celibate.. you are a man who has never had sex.. there is a big difference..

do you think i was born a "non-virgin"?? i was "celibate" (by your definition) until i was 18, so i am perfectly able to comment on your pathetic threads..

you, on the other hand, have never tried, seen, or learned about drugs..

furthermore, do you have any friends (i could end the sentence there, but i won't) who have used drugs? no? well, i have friends who have never had sex.. whether it is because they are ugly, shy, celibate, or otherwise, they have for one reason or another not had sex.. however, they don't go on and on and on and on and on about it, and make comments that make them sound like misogynistic rapists, something which you could do well to learn from..

you are a massive tool.. it is a shame that your exponentially inreasing idiocy drives me to lower myself to such jibes but really, you are a tool..

apalled

06-09-2005, 15:20

Is that what you'd do then? If your brother or son or best mate was hooked on something, lock him in a hole and throw away the key, even though he still had a chance to make something of his life? Some of you are stuck in the 1900's, honestly.

Siân

06-09-2005, 15:21

Originally posted by LornaF
My partner used to be on heroin, before i met him and now when he see's people living that life he does feel sorry for them but is equally disgusted by it.
People he was in rehab with sorted their lives out and got back on track but others for whatever reason are still in the cycle.
We both consider this to be a total waste of public time and money and there are more worthwhile people who deserve the attention such as those born with disabilities whose problems are not self inflicted.

Am I understanding you correctly? You & your partner believe he wasn't worth the money spent on him via his rehab? Instead the money would have been better spent elsewhere? I guess there are some people who'd think like that.

Unless of course you mean it's only those who didn't manage to break the cycle through rehab the first time. In which case how do you tell who's going to benefit from one stab at rehab & who isn't?

If someone who's successfully kicked the habit once finds themselves back in a situation where they are using again should they be left to it having been given their one chance? Or is it possible that having beaten it once they can do it again?

apalled

06-09-2005, 15:22

Originally posted by apalled
Is that what you'd do then? If your brother or son or best mate was hooked on something, lock him in a hole and throw away the key, even though he still had a chance to make something of his life? Some of you are stuck in the 1900's, honestly.
That was a reply to superchrome btw.

willman

06-09-2005, 15:23

Siân

06-09-2005, 15:25

Originally posted by willman
they didnt need help starting on the drugs in the first place. so why is it societies place to help them out of it?

I'd say it was in all our interests to help people out of drug addiction. It can only benefit society, surely?

apalled

06-09-2005, 15:25

Originally posted by Siân
Am I understanding you correctly? You & your partner believe he wasn't worth the money spent on him via his rehab? Instead the money would have been better spent elsewhere? I guess there are some people who'd think like that.

Unless of course you mean it's only those who didn't manage to break the cycle through rehab the first time. In which case how do you tell who's going to benefit from one stab at rehab & who isn't?

If someone who's successfully kicked the habit once finds themselves back in a situation where they are using again should they be left to it having been given their one chance? Or is it possible that having beaten it once they can do it again?
Yeh, surely your partner's living proof that money invested to help these people is money well invested. Of course he feels disgusted when he sees users...he feels disgusted that that was how he once was. But he must feel proud, relieved and grateful to those that helped him out of and glad noone gave him a dirty needle, a bed sit and told him to ***** himself, which it seems is what some of you would do. Have a bit of compassion for god's sake.

apalled

06-09-2005, 15:27

Originally posted by willman
they didnt need help starting on the drugs in the first place. so why is it societies place to help them out of it?
You have just demonstrated a complete, resounding ignorance of drug addiction and its causes and effects in the space of one sentence. Congratulations.

LornaF

06-09-2005, 15:29

Like i said its a lifestyle choice and altho rehab did help him finally kick the habit, its what you choose after this which determines if you end up back at square one.

willman

06-09-2005, 15:30

Originally posted by apalled
You have just demonstrated a complete, resounding ignorance of drug addiction and its causes and effects in the space of one sentence. Congratulations.

spent 4 years studying psychology so i know more about it than u probably do. bad things happen to people some people don't need bad things to happen.
there are no excuses for taking illegal drugs - period.heroin falls into that category.

apalled

06-09-2005, 15:36

BrainThrust

06-09-2005, 15:38

willman

06-09-2005, 15:40

Originally posted by apalled
I'm not going to qualify myself, but take it from me I am well placed to talk on the subject. This has nothing to do with excuses and attaching blame. The fact is these people have got themselves in a hole - guilty as charged - and need help to escape from it. A human life is always worth fighting for, what they may have done and who's fault that is has nothing to do with it.

i can empathise with our view, however the issue of fault & blame centred on society is usually the inevitable reason for peoples abuse of substances. perhaps if someone stood up & said it was my fault, i wasn't forced,i paid for everything from my own pocket then i could offer some degree of agreement with your humanitarian belief.

willman

06-09-2005, 15:42

Originally posted by BrainThrust
You're saying an academic book learning study will show you more than life experience when it comes to dealing with drug addiction?

You must be on drugs yourself!

Wilf

i think academia qualifies me to fully understand a broader spectrum of substance abuse , family & society breakdown than an individual who uses, or the friend of an individual case which tends to be blinkered & viewed within narrow confines.

apalled

06-09-2005, 15:46

Originally posted by willman
i can empathise with our view, however the issue of fault & blame centred on society is usually the inevitable reason for peoples abuse of substances. perhaps if someone stood up & said it was my fault, i wasn't forced,i paid for everything from my own pocket then i could offer some degree of agreement with your humanitarian belief.
Whatever, your 'you took drugs, ***** off and die' attitude doesn't and never will wash with me. Instead of quoting theories, try being involved with these people, see what they're really like, and then decide they've all had their chance, and that's that. I'm sorry if I'm getting a bit heated but it's a topic that's very important to me and to hear you spout that crap and think you must be right because you have a psycology degree astonishes me. I'm sure there are theories you can apply from a subjective distance but the fact is, people dying should always be avoided if at all possible.

ANGELUS

06-09-2005, 15:48

Originally posted by kirky
in the uk...£25 a gram apparently,in mu opinion it should be free and 100 per cent pure,then the dirty fillthy smack rats can have as much as they like and kill themselves while they are at it.....problem solved:thumbsup:

****** myself laughing reading this :clap:
Very true though :thumbsup:

What I want to know is - where does the phrase smack rat come from?

BrainThrust

06-09-2005, 15:50

Originally posted by willman
i think academia qualifies me to fully understand a broader spectrum of substance abuse , family & society breakdown than an individual who uses, or the friend of an individual case which tends to be blinkered & viewed within narrow confines.

Perhaps a broader spectrum but that says exactly where substance abuse understanding falls down. You know the broad aspects without any comprehension of deep down on an emotional level. You may see that as a benetfit as you claim it helps impartiality but I see it as a lack of understanding of the pain and tragedy that an abusing relative can cause.

I've studied the psychology of substance abude too and it really does fail to see how scary/desperate/bleak some aspects of society are.

Wilf

youwhatref

06-09-2005, 15:50

It's fascinating to see two completly different sides of the arguement. :D

But in defending those who knock those on heroin. The picture we see is that heroin equals crime generally. I have one friend and one family member who have both been on heroin and both are in prison for theft and violent muggings committed to feed there habit. I have no sympthay for them whatsoever, they are weak minded and deserve nothing for their crimes.

i accept there is the scenario where people have been forced or led into the habit and they do need help and i appreciate that they require a second chance. But people also need to appreciate that the heroin user had a choice in the first place, the issues why they got into heroin is another matter and something else that needs resolving. (if that makes sense!)

apalled

06-09-2005, 15:51

Originally posted by willman
i think academia qualifies me to fully understand a broader spectrum of substance abuse , family & society breakdown than an individual who uses, or the friend of an individual case which tends to be blinkered & viewed within narrow confines.
You're not a doctor are you! My uncle (the brother of my aunt who died) is a consultant psychiatrist who works with the criminally insane, often with patients who have problems caused by drugs or that have caused them to get into drugs and works with addicts every day. He has a complete sociological and physiological understanding of drugs and would completely destroy your argument which sounds like something you've read in the Daily Mail.

willman

06-09-2005, 15:53

Originally posted by apalled
Whatever, your 'you took drugs, ***** off and die' attitude doesn't and never will wash with me. Instead of quoting theories, try being involved with these people, see what they're really like, and then decide they've all had their chance, and that's that. I'm sorry if I'm getting a bit heated but it's a topic that's very important to me and to hear you spout that crap and think you must be right because you have a psycology degree astonishes me. I'm sure there are theories you can apply from a subjective distance but the fact is, people dying should always be avoided if at all possible.

i never made the opening statemnet & don't agree with it.
i have no theories on the subject, i am qualified to teach mathematics with a qualification in both psychology & law.
i look at the matter objectively & not emotionally, the blame culture for drug addicts is massive, they seldom accept responsibility plus we have other forum members condoning recreational drugs because they "dont cause any problems"
please ...will someone get the facts right.

willman

06-09-2005, 15:56

Originally posted by BrainThrust

I've studied the psychology of substance abude too and it really does fail to see how scary/desperate/bleak some aspects of society are.

Wilf
so because soemone doesn't like how they live they are forced to take drugs.
get a life. there is always an intitial choice. you make it you pay the consequences.

StarSparkle

06-09-2005, 15:56

willman

06-09-2005, 15:59

Originally posted by StarSparkle
You spent 4 years studying psychology, but never managed to develop any compassion for the pain suffered by your fellow human beings, as described on the pages of your text books? :suspect:

Perhaps to you people are just objects to provide material for your academic analysis?

Why were you wasting your time and public money doing a degree that clearly made no impression on you?

I fervently hope you're not a psychologist. God help your patients.

StarSparkle

i spent four years studying why some people are unable to interact in society without agression and without fulfilling their potential.plus years since at my own expense not tax payers.
so please childish quips don't do you justice.

there are imes when people have to make a choice, if they choose drugs & cannot cope, why should society either accept the blame or pay the price.
i stated the same on other posts re: drugs & no one can tell me why without emotional involvement.

apalled

06-09-2005, 16:00

Originally posted by willman
i never made the opening statemnet & don't agree with it.
i have no theories on the subject, i am qualified to teach mathematics with a qualification in both psychology & law.
i look at the matter objectively & not emotionally, the blame culture for drug addicts is massive, they seldom accept responsibility plus we have other forum members condoning recreational drugs because they "dont cause any problems"
please ...will someone get the facts right.
You're in a position to say, in simple terms, drugs are bad for society' - which is true, and hardly takes a degree to understand. What you're not in a position to underastand is the intricacies of individual cases and you clearly don't understand that broad, sweeping generalisations about drug issues are completely unhelpful, form prejudice within society and help noone.

There is no excuse for drug users to rob or hound people. But the answer is not to ostricise them, or lock them away until they die. It is to try to understand their condition and help them to overcome so they can be of value to society again.

I'm going home now. I hope it never happens, but if it you are ever forced to deal with addiction, let's see if your theory stands the test, and it's enough to say 'your choice, deal with it.'

nickrb

06-09-2005, 16:05

Originally posted by willman
spent 4 years studying psychology so i know more about it than u probably do. bad things happen to people some people don't need bad things to happen.
there are no excuses for taking illegal drugs - period.heroin falls into that category.

Right,

I have had enough of statements lke this. How on earth can you have experience in drug addiction after 4 yrs studying?

For your info, and i will probably regret this but f**k it:

10 yrs ago I was an addict. I was desperate beyond belief to get my self out of the vicious circle. I tried and failed , tried and failed and eventually years later managed to get into a residential re-hab.... that was ten years ago.. not touched the stuff since....

So dont you tell me with all your books you have experience....

I could write books and books on my experiences...

I am lucky to be here, and all because someone had a little faith in me... and gave me the chance i desperatly needed.

Some of my friends were not so lucky and died... some are still on the stuff... obviously i can be near them any more while they are using... but doesnt mean ive given up on them..

So please... All of you who have made such ignorent statements just think before you type... we are all human.. we all need help from time to time..

So, from an X - "Smack Rat" I thank all the people who have posted positive posts... and too all the negative / ignorant posts, i feel sorry for you guys, one day, you just never know, it could be you or your close friends .. I hope it isnt, but you can not truely predict the future...

willman

06-09-2005, 16:06

Originally posted by apalled
You're in a position to say, in simple terms, drugs are bad for society' - which is true, and hardly takes a degree to understand. What you're not in a position to underastand is the intricacies of individual cases and you clearly don't understand that broad, sweeping generalisations about drug issues are completely unhelpful, form prejudice within society and help noone.

There is no excuse for drug users to rob or hound people. But the answer is not to ostricise them, or lock them away until they die. It is to try to understand their condition and help them to overcome so they can be of value to society again.

I'm going home now. I hope it never happens, but if it you are ever forced to deal with addiction, let's see if your theory stands the test, and it's enough to say 'your choice, deal with it.'

i hope so too,perhaps if more people were critical of substance use on a day to day basis others may not be tempted to use it.that would be a better way to spend time,money & effort.

willman

06-09-2005, 16:11

Originally posted by nickrb
Right,

I have had enough of statements lke this. How on earth can you have experience in drug addiction after 4 yrs studying?

For your info, and i will probably regret this but f**k it:

10 yrs ago I was an addict. I was desperate beyond belief to get my self out of the vicious circle. I tried and failed , tried and failed and eventually years later managed to get into a residential re-hab.... that was ten years ago.. not touched the stuff since....

So dont you tell me with all your books you have experience....

I could write books and books on my experiences...

I am lucky to be here, and all because someone had a little faith in me... and gave me the chance i desperatly needed.

Some of my friends were not so lucky and died... some are still on the stuff... obviously i can be near them any more while they are using... but doesnt mean ive given up on them..

So please... All of you who have made such ignorent statements just think before you type... we are all human.. we all need help from time to time..

So, from an X - "Smack Rat" I thank all the people who have posted positive posts... and too all the negative / ignorant posts, i feel sorry for you guys, one day, you just never know, it could be you or your close friends .. I hope it isnt, but you can not truely predict the future...

you should be commended for perseverance.
but your point is what?
that you are clean after taking drugs you weren't meant to take in the first place.
that you deserve sympathy for putting yourself through hell.

i never said that books gave me any experience just lots of case studies of hundreds of people in your situation, thats how all pyschologists etc start out.

StarSparkle

06-09-2005, 16:14

Originally posted by willman
i spent four years studying why some people are unable to interact in society without agression and without fulfilling their potential.plus years since at my own expense not tax payers.
so please childish quips don't do you justice.

there are imes when people have to make a choice, if they choose drugs & cannot cope, why should society either accept the blame or pay the price.
i stated the same on other posts re: drugs & no one can tell me why without emotional involvement.

Well, I think you wasted your money and your Department's time.

You may be able to spout academic theories verbatim, but in the real world that means nothing. Until you develop compassion and a willingness to empathise with your fellow man rather than hiding behind dry academic analysis, you will never understand human psychology.

Your question: why should society help addicts? Because they are members of our society, same as everyone else, who have fallen on hard times and desperately need help. As I said earlier, they are victims of their own brain biochemistry as much as anything, and in many cases need medical help to correct that imbalance. It's a foolish choice, but taking heroin is a form of self-medication. Perhaps if these poor people were sorted out with the correct medication in the first place, they wouldn't have to resort to heroin.

I'm not condoning taking heroin, but I am trying to understand why someone might feel so desperate they see it as a potential solution to their problems.

StarSparkle

nickrb

06-09-2005, 16:22

Originally posted by willman
you should be commended for perseverance.
but your point is what?
that you are clean after taking drugs you weren't meant to take in the first place.
that you deserve sympathy for putting yourself through hell.

i never said that books gave me any experience just lots of case studies of hundreds of people in your situation, thats how all pyschologists etc start out.

No, im not asking to be commended, far from it. Im trying ask how you have the experience to preach about addicts.

In fact, for the record, the best councilors are ex addicts.

Anj1364

06-09-2005, 16:25

Originally posted by StarSparkle
As you so rightly say, Valentine, if circumstances had been different, it could potentially have been any one of us.

To those of you who use emotive and uncaring terms like 'smack rats' - Can you imagine the hopelessness and pain these people must have been in to become addicted to heroin in the first place? What must their lives have been like? To end up living in such squalor and degredation to numb their pain?

Just thank the Lord your life hasn't been so awful that you've ended up like that.

Have some humanity.

StarSparkle

I know someone who has a son who is hopefully on the way to recovery from heroin addiction. He comes from a very normal background, ok his parents seperated but why should broken homes be blamed for everything. His father and mother both married again and they live a normal family life. He chose to smoke canabis, he then chose to try heroin. He then chose to repeatedly steal from his family to feed his habit who all the time still tried to help him. Eventually, they had to leave him to sort himself out as they were at their wits end, they had tried everything to help him. Thankfully, he has been able to see himself what he had become and as I said is now recovering.

Some people are addicted to drink, some to cigarettes, but I don't think its fair to put heroin addiction into the same category as these as they rarely lead stealing,mugging or other extremes abusers go to in order to raise the money for their next fix.

Its the people at the start of the chain who are to blame. The people who make it available.

zippy

06-09-2005, 16:39

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
Im fairly sure that morphine addiction can be a problem for people in hospital with serious pain.

it's generally not a problem in hospital, however poor prescribing practice by GPs can lead to problems with dependence of many drugs , i'd quite happily see any opiate stronger than codiene / DF118 moved to 'consultant prescription only' same for ALL anti depressants - this however needs secondary care outpatient services which would permit this

My sisters ex just got given a jar full of morphine pills when he was sent home after severely damaging his neck.

i'd be very suprised at that - Morphine is generally not prescribed on an outpatient basis except in palliative care or by GPs who aere easily manipulated by their patients ( along with the many many dubious sick notes and blue badges )

It is in essence the same drug, and its the morphine that people get addicted to, not the crap put in junk.

n Jack, I guess he does, but selflessness isnt generally a human quality. lol

opiates are addictive - addiction is a problem where there is not a clinical indication for the medication - hence the reason for my belief that painkiller prescriptions need to be radically overhauled ( and as a side effect would prevent shipman like situations arise - especially as fery few GPs now provide 'freelance' responses to emergencies )

nickrb

06-09-2005, 16:41

Originally posted by Anj1364

Its the people at the start of the chain who are to blame. The people who make it available.

Arhhh, now we are getting closer. You are complety right.... kill the supply and there can then be no more demand.

Unfortunatly some people are weak and do things they regret for the rest of their lives, like take heroin, but if the supply was not there would be no more problem.

If only we could stop all this at the source we would not live in fear of our children becoming mixed up in it and possibly ruining their lives.

benclements2

06-09-2005, 16:43

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
heroin is not a very dangerous drug at all, effects wise. Adverse side effects are few if you're actually taking heroin. The problems occur when its mixed with a load of crap.

Oh, and its nice to see you all have so much empathy for people :)

Nah mate, the problem occurs when these "people" attack innocent OAP's and rob them of their pensions just to feed their addiction. THAT'S the problem.

Siân

06-09-2005, 16:47

Originally posted by Anj1364
Some people are addicted to drink, some to cigarettes, but I don't think its fair to put heroin addiction into the same category as these as they rarely lead stealing,mugging or other extremes abusers go to in order to raise the money for their next fix.

I have to disagree with you there - alcoholics go to extremes to get the money for their next fix. Although I'd say it is fair to say that their families are probably more likely to suffer than a random stranger. I'd have thought this was true (at least initially) of the families of heroin addicts too.

nickrb

06-09-2005, 16:50

Originally posted by Siân
I have to disagree with you there - alcoholics go to extremes to get the money for their next fix. Although I'd say it is fair to say that their families are probably more likely to suffer than a random stranger. I'd have thought this was true (at least initially) of the families of heroin addicts too.

Exactly. Nice comment.

jazzhands

06-09-2005, 18:53

Seeing as some people using heroin (or crack?) commit crime to fund their habit, surely from a selfish point of view (i.e. not wanting to be mugged/burgled etc), then whatever is most effective way of rehabilitating people and reducing future risk is the most valuable way forward.

If anyone knows of research that shows abandoning/blaming/culling etc is effective, I'd be interested to see it.

Massive sums of money and effort have been thrown at 'the war on drugs', and from what i can see, the drugs have clearly won.

There are effective methods of harm reduction (for individuals and society as a whole), and the attitude of user = scum is about as useful as America's natural emergency response.

Get a grip...

oh, and if you think alcohol doesnt cause more agressive and threatening behaviour than drugs, go into town on a saturday night or look at domestic abuse research, for a start.

Anj1364

06-09-2005, 19:23

Originally posted by jazzhands
Get a grip...

oh, and if you think alcohol doesnt cause more agressive and threatening behaviour than drugs, go into town on a saturday night or look at domestic abuse research, for a start. [/B]

They are just thugs and bullies and would probably behave like that without the help of a drink.

willman

06-09-2005, 19:33

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Well, I think you wasted your money and your Department's time.

You may be able to spout academic theories verbatim, but in the real world that means nothing. Until you develop compassion and a willingness to empathise with your fellow man rather than hiding behind dry academic analysis, you will never understand human psychology.

Your question: why should society help addicts? Because they are members of our society, same as everyone else, who have fallen on hard times and desperately need help. As I said earlier, they are victims of their own brain biochemistry as much as anything, and in many cases need medical help to correct that imbalance. It's a foolish choice, but taking heroin is a form of self-medication. Perhaps if these poor people were sorted out with the correct medication in the first place, they wouldn't have to resort to heroin.

I'm not condoning taking heroin, but I am trying to understand why someone might feel so desperate they see it as a potential solution to their problems.

StarSparkle

so are all drug users insane or brain damaged or disabled or fallen on hard times.how many don't take drugs?
I think not check other posts on here with the forummers supporting drug use.

all psychology is about getting the "victim" to understand and accept why they are a "victim", using free association or Freud or whatever. once the patient gains their own acceptance they are on the road to recovery. concise i know but that's roughly it in a nutshell.if they went through that process b4 taking drugs the problem wouldn't exist.

StarSparkle

06-09-2005, 20:08

Originally posted by willman
so are all drug users insane or brain damaged or disabled or fallen on hard times.how many don't take drugs?
I think not check other posts on here with the forummers supporting drug use.

You leave me speechless.

At no point have I suggested that drug users are either insane or brain-damaged. What I said was that many of those who suffer from an addiction-prone personality have imbalances in their brain biochemistry. This can often be rectified through medication, if the time and trouble is taken to diagnose.

If you don't undestand this, what on earth were you learning on your course?

Did you learn anything from your course at ALL? I find it frankly unbelievable that you claim to have studied Psychology.

You seem to have no feeling for the subject whatsoever.

StarSparkle

willman

06-09-2005, 20:35

Originally posted by StarSparkle
You leave me speechless.

At no point have I suggested that drug users are either insane or brain-damaged. What I said was that many of those who suffer from an addiction-prone personality have imbalances in their brain biochemistry. This can often be rectified through medication, if the time and trouble is taken to diagnose.

If you don't undestand this, what on earth were you learning on your course?

Did you learn anything from your course at ALL? I find it frankly unbelievable that you claim to have studied Psychology.

You seem to have no feeling for the subject whatsoever.

StarSparkle

your all emcompassing statement points to chemically induced brain imbalances - can you support the fact that they were that before drug abuse.

you appear to miss my points entirely - symptoms of drug abuse ie heroine injection are self inflicted.
i find it unbelievable that u don't have any comprehension of the personal choice to take the drugs in the first place.

i have no feeling of sympathy for drug users, doesn't make me a bad person just not the first on your xmas card list.

not all shrinks etc. care about their clients!!

JoeP

06-09-2005, 20:43

Originally posted by willman

all psychology is about getting the "victim" to understand and accept why they are a "victim", using free association or Freud or whatever. once the patient gains their own acceptance they are on the road to recovery. concise i know but that's roughly it in a nutshell.if they went through that process b4 taking drugs the problem wouldn't exist.

Hmmmm.....let me go back to my biochemistry degree here, where even 20 years ago we were aware that many psychological conditions are actually caused by problems with imbalances between the neurotransmitters in the brain.

For example, you have someone whose Serotonin chemistry is out of balance, then all the Freud, Jung and Oprah Winfrey in the world won't help them out. However, a SSRI will, and then may help people stay sorted out.

It doesn't matter if a patient 'accepts' they have a neuropharmacological problem - biochemistry is biochemistry and if broken needs drug based intervention to fix it.

Some people DO take recreational drugs as an extreme form of self-medication - it takes the hurt away. Regulars on this Forum know that I'm quite hardline anti-drugs, and I actually think we've been too slack in de-classifying dope, for example.

Someone who is depressed due to a chemical imbalance, or is hyperactive due to a similar thing, or has no impulse control - all may try illegal drugs and get hooked. I doubt that giving them months or years of psychoanalysis, months of CBT, any amount of NLP - whatever you want from the psychotherapy cookbook - will actually make a jot of difference, except that whilst they're under the eye of a therapist they're less likely to be able to nip off and source drugs.

Joe

cgksheff

06-09-2005, 20:50

While most of the debate has centred around heroin and who knows the most about it, may I take you back to the report that kirky had seen/heard reported.

It is an annual report produced by Drugscope and while it shows that Sheffield may have the cheapest heroin in the country (along with cocaine and crack at the cheaper end of the scale), it also shows that cannabis prices in Sheffield are among some of the more expensive in the country.

I assume that some markets forces are in play here and that prices reflect the maximum that users are able to pay.

Does this imply that the average cannabis user in Sheffield is relatively better off than their counterparts in the rest of the UK?
..and that the average Sheffield heroin user is from the poorest section of our society?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/4206388.stm

JoeP

06-09-2005, 20:50

Originally posted by willman

not all shrinks etc. care about their clients!!

That statement horrifies me.

If a therapist or psychologist DOESN'T care for their clients then they should get the hell out of the profession and find something that better suits them.

As for personal choice with drugs - I'd agree; it's an interesting question as to why some people with neurotransmitter problems go with illegal drugs and some go with legal drugs. I think it's partially education, partially faith in the medical profession and partially social and economic surroundings. There is also peer pressure, and sometimes people are just stupid.

Joe

Greybeard

06-09-2005, 21:21

Originally posted by cgksheff

I assume that some markets forces are in play here and that prices reflect the maximum that users are able to pay.

It's also possible to assume that prices here for hard drugs are depressed because there isn' t the demand for them compared with areas where the prices are high.

IOW Sheffield doesn't have the levels of addiction that would keep prices high ?

PETE

06-09-2005, 21:43

25 quid they would be better off buying 200 dodgy fags off me. int that right kirky

StarSparkle

06-09-2005, 21:45

Originally posted by willman
your all emcompassing statement points to chemically induced brain imbalances - can you support the fact that they were that before drug abuse.

No, it doesn't. That can be the case in some instances, for example, where taking ecstasy for a period of time has damaged the brain's ability to process the neurotransmitter serotonin. But many other people are simply BORN with some imbalances in their brain biochemistry. Some of these will try to self-medicate with illegal drugs. Others may be lucky enough to be diagnosed, and helped with the use of legal drugs such as Prozac.

And in my opinion, if a therapist or counsellor doesn't care about their patients/clients, then they shouldn't be in what is meant to be a caring profession.

StarSparkle

willman

06-09-2005, 21:50

Originally posted by JoeP
That statement horrifies me.

If a therapist or psychologist DOESN'T care for their clients then they should get the hell out of the profession and find something that better suits them.

As for personal choice with drugs - I'd agree; it's an interesting question as to why some people with neurotransmitter problems go with illegal drugs and some go with legal drugs. I think it's partially education, partially faith in the medical profession and partially social and economic surroundings. There is also peer pressure, and sometimes people are just stupid.

Joe

horrified me which is why i never qualified to practise, but it's true.

bellis

06-09-2005, 21:51

Originally posted by PETE
25 quid they would be better off buying 200 dodgy fags off me. int that right kirky

what brand are they got any rothmans ?

Ginger Queen

06-09-2005, 22:17

Wow. For those that are interested, this post will be a long one. For those that aren't interested, stop here.

The gorgeous Classic Rock called me and told me to have a look at this thread and I can see why. Apparently some people need a CV before a post can be seen as credible or valid. Well, I think I'm qualified to have an opinion on this subject after fifteen years of specialising in the treatment of alcohol and drug related problems. So I know about both the theory and practice of helping people in a professional capacity. I've also got personal experiences. I've been close and am still close to several people who've suffered serious problems related to their alcohol and drug use. I've been to some very sad funerals.

My opinions and beliefs have changed over the years as I've seen and learnt more both at work and in my personal life. I've encountered all the arguments expressed here. I still find the subject of addiction and people's responses to it fascinating. I think people drink and take drugs for all sorts of reasons. The experience of drinking or using drugs can be very positive. Most of the people who have joined the debate on here will at least be able to appreciate the relaxing and sociable effect of a couple of drinks, for example. If you think about any of the 'risks' that you have taken in the last month or so and any of the reasons that you took those risks you will have some of the answers as to why anyone might use illlict drugs. There is also a theory that human beings have an drive to experience altered states of conciousness and that these experiences fulfill a variety of needs; recreational, emotional, spiritual, social. The continued use of some substances means that people develop a dependency or addiction over time. The drive to use then has a compelling physical component though it's often the emotional dependency that leads to relapse.

Very few people ever begin to drink or use drugs with the desire to become addicted and most people drink and use drugs with relatively few negative consequences. Some of the negative consequences arise purely from the fact of a substance being illegal. As a society we tolerate the negative impact of alcohol because it is legal and, for most of us, socially acceptable. The biggest cost to society arises from the negative impact of alcohol use; it's been suggested that 70% of hospital admissions are alcohol related. Our political system has largely ignored that fact until very recently and has focused on heroin and the harm that it causes. And undoubtedly, it does cause harm.

People that use heroin are as diverse a group as any other and there is no one defining feature that marks people out as likely users. Having said that, many of those that are vulnerable to it's appeal often have a history of social disadvantage and deprivation. Some don't. Until we have a society that offers equal opportunity to all it's members I don't believe we can ever abandon those who make choices that cause harm. In any case, all the evidence suggests that postive treatment options cost less than merely punishing those that use. Read back to the note that says £1 spent on drug treatment saves £3 in the criminal justice system. It's true. Helping people saves money. So, whatever your moral views, the realities mean that we're not going to solve the problems by calling heroin users 'pond scum'. Conservative and hard-line principles perpetrate a society where one group must always be defined as less worthy than another. I'm a pragmatic 'do-gooder' because doing good costs less, appears to work and might just go some way to creating a society where nobody gets to call anybody 'scum'.

'Our society as presently structured will continue to generate problems for some of it's members... and then condemn whatever solutions these groups find.'

Ginger Queen

06-09-2005, 22:21

Whoops. I've just realised what a rant that is. Sorry chaps. I got carried away.

Ginger Queen

06-09-2005, 23:16

Oh no! I've just read all the stuff about bio-chemical imbalances and addictive personalities. Now you'll really get me started... Only kidding. No more ranting. Promise. I'll be good.

wearetherobots

07-09-2005, 06:29

Although I find the effects of prohibitional drug use horrendous and fear smackheads like demons I must add that pure Heroin has no direct harmfull effect on any organ in the body unlike Alcohol and Fags so you people wishing upon the death of others might want to think about that while you chug down a pint in your legal drink dealing establishments.

kirky

07-09-2005, 06:33

Originally posted by ANGELUS
****** myself laughing reading this :clap:
Very true though :thumbsup:

What I want to know is - where does the phrase smack rat come from?

when i had a pub in town i was forever moving druggies out of the back yard they were always scrounging in the skips....like rats

kirky

07-09-2005, 06:37

Originally posted by PETE
25 quid they would be better off buying 200 dodgy fags off me. int that right kirky

i had some of them fags remember,i'd say they were as bad for my health if not worse than smack:|

JoeP

07-09-2005, 06:37

Originally posted by Ginger Queen
Oh no! I've just read all the stuff about bio-chemical imbalances and addictive personalities. Now you'll really get me started... Only kidding. No more ranting. Promise. I'll be good.

Rant away - they exist, they're often resolved with the use of medication, feel free to rant and we'll feel free to kick back! :)

willman

07-09-2005, 06:38

Originally posted by Ginger Queen
Wow. For those that are interested, this post will be a long one. For those that aren't interested, stop here.

The gorgeous Classic Rock called me and told me to have a look at this thread and I can see why. Apparently some people need a CV before a post can be seen as credible or valid. Well, I think I'm qualified to have an opinion on this subject after fifteen years of specialising in the treatment of alcohol and drug related problems. So I know about both the theory and practice of helping people in a professional capacity. I've also got personal experiences. I've been close and am still close to several people who've suffered serious problems related to their alcohol and drug use. I've been to some very sad funerals.

My opinions and beliefs have changed over the years as I've seen and learnt more both at work and in my personal life. I've encountered all the arguments expressed here. I still find the subject of addiction and people's responses to it fascinating. I think people drink and take drugs for all sorts of reasons. The experience of drinking or using drugs can be very positive. Most of the people who have joined the debate on here will at least be able to appreciate the relaxing and sociable effect of a couple of drinks, for example. If you think about any of the 'risks' that you have taken in the last month or so and any of the reasons that you took those risks you will have some of the answers as to why anyone might use illlict drugs. There is also a theory that human beings have an drive to experience altered states of conciousness and that these experiences fulfill a variety of needs; recreational, emotional, spiritual, social. The continued use of some substances means that people develop a dependency or addiction over time. The drive to use then has a compelling physical component though it's often the emotional dependency that leads to relapse.

Very few people ever begin to drink or use drugs with the desire to become addicted and most people drink and use drugs with relatively few negative consequences. Some of the negative consequences arise purely from the fact of a substance being illegal. As a society we tolerate the negative impact of alcohol because it is legal and, for most of us, socially acceptable. The biggest cost to society arises from the negative impact of alcohol use; it's been suggested that 70% of hospital admissions are alcohol related. Our political system has largely ignored that fact until very recently and has focused on heroin and the harm that it causes. And undoubtedly, it does cause harm.

People that use heroin are as diverse a group as any other and there is no one defining feature that marks people out as likely users. Having said that, many of those that are vulnerable to it's appeal often have a history of social disadvantage and deprivation. Some don't. Until we have a society that offers equal opportunity to all it's members I don't believe we can ever abandon those who make choices that cause harm. In any case, all the evidence suggests that postive treatment options cost less than merely punishing those that use. Read back to the note that says £1 spent on drug treatment saves £3 in the criminal justice system. It's true. Helping people saves money. So, whatever your moral views, the realities mean that we're not going to solve the problems by calling heroin users 'pond scum'. Conservative and hard-line principles perpetrate a society where one group must always be defined as less worthy than another. I'm a pragmatic 'do-gooder' because doing good costs less, appears to work and might just go some way to creating a society where nobody gets to call anybody 'scum'.

'Our society as presently structured will continue to generate problems for some of it's members... and then condemn whatever solutions these groups find.'

valid points made, re: the cv issue unless your opinion as an intelligent person is called into question you won't need yours like i did.
i also feel that thepost went a little astray because most of the "negative" opinion including mine is directed in the most towards the use of illegal street drugs.

nickrb

07-09-2005, 08:06

WHAT IS ADDICTION?

One in three people suffer from an addiction. It is something that touches us all at some point in our lives. Despite this fact there are still many misconceptions about addiction - what it is and who it affects.

Addiction is a complex illness that affects different people in different ways.

Just because someone takes drugs or drinks alcohol does not mean that they have an addiction - an addiction is a loss of control over substance use.

For example, someone may have problems controlling how much or how often they use a substance or they may need to take more of it to achieve the desired effect. It is characterised by a compulsion to use a substance to feel good, or to avoid feeling bad.

An addiction can be a physical dependency - caused when repeated use of a substance changes your body's chemistry.

And/or a psychological dependency - caused when you repeat certain behaviour, such as drug use, until your mind is hooked on that pattern of behaviour, causing mental cravings.

Most importantly, addiction affects us all, so it is crucial that everyone is aware of the dangers of addiction and the signs to look out for.

JonJParr

07-09-2005, 08:09

Can you be addicted to success? Addicted to hard work? It's a shame more people aren't.

nickrb

07-09-2005, 08:12

Originally posted by JonJParr
Can you be addicted to success? Addicted to hard work? It's a shame more people aren't.

IMO you can be addicted to anything.

JonJParr

07-09-2005, 08:14

Originally posted by nickrb
IMO you can be addicted to anything.

So by that logic as I'm addicted to work and success I must have an illness. Correct?

nickrb

07-09-2005, 08:23

Originally posted by JonJParr
So by that logic as I'm addicted to work and success I must have an illness. Correct?

"Just because someone takes drugs or drinks alcohol does not mean that they have an addiction - an addiction is a loss of control over substance use. "

Apply the above to your question? Do you have a loss of control over working hard at work or being successfull?

I think you have taken my last post too literally. This thread is mainly about drug addiction. But is you do something and yuo begin to loose control over it then it is classed as a problem...

Drinking, drugs, anorexia, sex, theft, arson, the list of possible addictions is endless.

Pseudonym

07-09-2005, 08:33

Originally posted by JonJParr
So by that logic as I'm addicted to work and success I must have an illness. Correct?
Not an illness exactly, but as some people with your assumed mind-set are also subject to high stress-levels and often find it difficult to relax without the aid of alcohol, there is an increased possibility that they are heading for an early grave...

Two 'successful' and affluent businessmen of my aquaintance have done just that in the past couple of years, one at 48, one at 55, they worked very hard and single-mindedly pursued the god of achievement... Perhaps they finally caught up with a different god, one that they didn't want to meet just yet.

In their case, the addiction to work and success proved their undoing, rather than their salvation. Addiction, as has been said, can take many forms!

Classic Rock

07-09-2005, 08:48

You cannot be addicted to work. You have commitment to work. Dedication to work. It's certainly not an addiction. Your body would not suffer if you suddenly stopped (in fact that's what holidays are about).

apalled

07-09-2005, 08:55

Originally posted by Classic Rock
You cannot be addicted to work. You have commitment to work. Dedication to work. It's certainly not an addiction. Your body would not suffer if you suddenly stopped (in fact that's what holidays are about).
Have to disagree with you on that one...people do become so absorbed in their jobs...often as a form of escapism from a part of their life outside work e.g. family problems...that they suffer from stress and lack of sleep, leading to high blood pressure, lack of sleep, bad diet etc.,. They too have trouble cutting down/stopping somehting that is causing negative physical and psycological effects on their bodies.

apalled

07-09-2005, 08:58

Originally posted by Classic Rock
You cannot be addicted to work. You have commitment to work. Dedication to work. It's certainly not an addiction. Your body would not suffer if you suddenly stopped (in fact that's what holidays are about).
It's a psycological addiction rather than a physical one but actually manifests itself physically and causes some similar symptoms to physical addiction...people don't want to stop because their afraid of what waits for them away from work.

nickrb

07-09-2005, 09:01

Originally posted by apalled
Have to disagree with you on that one...people do become so absorbed in their jobs...often as a form of escapism from a part of their life outside work e.g. family problems...that they suffer from stress and lack of sleep, leading to high blood pressure, lack of sleep, bad diet etc.,. They too have trouble cutting down/stopping somehting that is causing negative physical and psycological effects on their bodies.

Exactly. IMO, if you loose control over something and IT begins to control you and make your life a misery, causes your sleep and diet to suffer, causes problems to your body, ie high blood pressure etc, then you have a problem.

dill

07-09-2005, 09:14

Re Kirky's original post. One of the reasons why heroin, and other drugs, maybe cheaper in Sheffield than in other parts of the country is that dealers are having to undercut the market because there are so few drugs available in the city - they need to make them more marketable. Not my view, but that of a bloke from the organisation that commissioned the report in the first place.

nickrb

07-09-2005, 09:27

Originally posted by dill
Re Kirky's original post. One of the reasons why heroin, and other drugs, maybe cheaper in Sheffield than in other parts of the country is that dealers are having to undercut the market because there are so few drugs available in the city - they need to make them more marketable. Not my view, but that of a bloke from the organisation that commissioned the report in the first place.

Arhh... I see you are back in the forum brother. Good on ya.

Pseudonym

07-09-2005, 09:31

I don't follow that... Surely if a commodity is scarce, then the price rises, not drops?

If the number of users is low compared to other cities, then yes, a price-drop would make sense.

dill

07-09-2005, 09:42

I'd have thought so too, Pseudonym. But it does make sense - if people are likely to go elsewhere in the country for their drugs, because there are so few in Sheffield, then Sheffield dealers will try to keep their customers by reducing their prices. Twisted logic, but that's the argument.

dill

07-09-2005, 09:44

Originally posted by nickrb
Arhh... I see you are back in the forum brother. Good on ya.

Indeed bruv! Where have all the right-wing, string-'em-up, 'hanging's too good for them', brigade gone?!

nickrb

07-09-2005, 09:46

Originally posted by dill
Indeed bruv! Where have all the right-wing, string-'em-up, 'hanging's too good for them', brigade gone?!

Im sure they will be back with another load of ammo... lol

Classic Rock

07-09-2005, 09:58

Originally posted by nickrb
Im sure they will be back with another load of ammo... lol

They probably can't read this far.... :o

nickrb

07-09-2005, 09:59

Originally posted by Classic Rock
They probably can't read this far.... :o

LOL fantastic..

Pseudonym

07-09-2005, 10:03

Originally posted by dill
I'd have thought so too, Pseudonym. But it does make sense - if people are likely to go elsewhere in the country for their drugs, because there are so few in Sheffield, then Sheffield dealers will try to keep their customers by reducing their prices. Twisted logic, but that's the argument.
Sorry dill, but that sort of twisted logic doesn't make sense at all to me...

Should there be a shortage of drugs in Sheffield then you can be pretty sure that it won't last for more than a few days, unless there is a general shortage in the UK, due to a massive bust... Which I see no evidence of.

Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, etc. are only a few hours away, all ready sources of supply, stocks would very quickly be replenished and the user-base satisfied.

The only reason that I can see for a lower price, is lack of demand, surely the selling of drugs isn't immune to market rules?

Classic Rock

07-09-2005, 10:06

So how much price difference are we talking here? If it's £25 here, what is it elsewhere?

I'm now picking up my clipboard and putting my market research shoes on.

dill

07-09-2005, 10:07

Dunno Pseudonym. You're certainly right that the number of users must be low. Whatever, the fact that drug prices are relatively cheaper here than elsewhere does not necessarily indicate that Sheffield has a massive drugs problem - that was the message given by the report guy

nickrb

07-09-2005, 10:09

Originally posted by Classic Rock
So how much price difference are we talking here? If it's £25 here, what is it elsewhere?

I'm now picking up my clipboard and putting my market research shoes on.

Here is your price guide:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/4206388.stm

Pseudonym

07-09-2005, 10:09

Get yourself over to Moss-side, Classic Rock, complete with clipboard and take a survey of dealers...

But be sure your life-insurance policy is fully paid-up first! :D

Pseudonym

07-09-2005, 10:13

Ye Gods! Cannabis @ 70 notes an ounce!!!

I was paying ten bob... 50p... Hell I should have cornered the market and stock-piled it.... Problem being, would it have kept for over 30 years I wonder! ;)

Classic Rock

07-09-2005, 10:14

Firstly I'm astonished that a survey has been done already and it's on the Beeb's site, secondly I'm astonished at the comparative prices of Heroin elsewhere especially in Belfast!

Hmm, Moss Side. I broke down there once and had to wait an hour for the RAC to turn up. There were plenty of shifty shady characters checking me out. I'll decline the market research suggestion over there, cheers. Makes me wonder which methodologies were used for the Beeb survey to get these prices though.

willman

07-09-2005, 10:16

Originally posted by dill
Indeed bruv! Where have all the right-wing, string-'em-up, 'hanging's too good for them', brigade gone?!

the post was about the cost of drugs in sheffield.
the debate on the addiction, which was off tack a little, appears to be over.
so obviously we dont care how much drugs are in Sheffield.

cgksheff

07-09-2005, 10:31

Originally posted by Classic Rock
Firstly I'm astonished that a survey has been done already and it's on the Beeb's site, secondly I'm astonished at the comparative prices of Heroin elsewhere especially in Belfast!

Hmm, Moss Side. I broke down there once and had to wait an hour for the RAC to turn up. There were plenty of shifty shady characters checking me out. I'll decline the market research suggestion over there, cheers. Makes me wonder which methodologies were used for the Beeb survey to get these prices though.

If you had actually read all the posts (you are quick off the mark to berate others of this) you would have seen my post (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=585629#post585629), two pages back, which gave a link to the survey.

You would also read, as you can also do on the BBC page, that it is not a "BBC" survey.

They are reporting on a survey published by Drugscope (http://www.drugscope.org.uk/news_item.asp?intID=1241) which is done on an annual basis.
Drugscope claim to be "the UK's leading independent centre of expertise on drugs".
Unfortunately, I cannot see any free publication of the full report on the web.
It appears that they want you to buy their "Druglink" magazine to see the details/methodology etc.

Classic Rock

07-09-2005, 10:40

Originally posted by cgksheff
If you had actually read all the posts (you are quick off the mark to berate others of this) you would have seen my post (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=585629#post585629), two pages back, which gave a link to the survey.

You would also read, as you can also do on the BBC page, that it is not a "BBC" survey.

I don't berate others at all, I certainly never target individuals - I'd find that to be rude and offensive to that person. I'll leave you to do that. :thumbsup:

Thank you for pointing out your post to me, I did read it, but in life we often have to be reminded of things (even Einstein didn't remember his own phone number).

I didn't state it was a BBC survey, rather a survey on a Beeb site. I did read that.

Pack in attacking me now :suspect: