It had to happen... One of the nations most responsible for the release of greenhouse gases that create global warming has now felt the full force of our changing climate. And how ironic that the American troups who could have helped keep order are in Iraq instead!

I can't help but compare Hurricane Katrina to the boxing day tsunami.

In Asia the emphasis was on the wellbeing of the community, not the individual. People pulled together and worked together in the wake of the disaster.

But just look what western greed has done for the Americans...

In New Orleans now it's every man for themselves. Just like the little boys in Lord of the Flies, the yanks are busy robbing, raping and looting. Commentators have been comparing New Orleans to the third world, but I don't think that's an insult to all the people living in third world countries who pull together in times of crisis.

I can't help but wonder which way we would go if a natural disaster like this hit the UK. Would we be helping each other, or raping each other's wifes?

Thoughts...

Originally posted by JBee

I can't help but wonder which way we would go if a natural disaster like this hit the UK. Would we be helping each other, or raping each other's wifes?

Thoughts...

We would form an orderly queue and complain to each other about the weather.

we'd be moaning about the council tax

Probably all be down at the pub enjoying a pint.

Depends if it happened on Sunday when there's a forum meet.

Dragon

New Orleans was flooded, but don't forget about the areas in Mississippi that were devastated and flattened. Those people are working together as communities and people are coming together to help each other in any way that they can. If this happened in Sheffield there would be areas of the city where bad things would be happening. In the most part people would pull together regardless of race or religion or money. But when you have no food or water I bet you would break into any shop you could find. Looters are not always bad people; just people trying to survive. Please do not see all Americans who have gone through this disaster as rapers and pillagers. These are civilized people stuck in a nightmare. Think about it seriously, what would you do to survive? You certainly wouldn't be sat at the pub talking about it as there would be no pub.

Reading a lot about NO in today's papers....sounds like an unstable place even at the best of times, totally corrupt police/admin and a murder rate nearly ten times the US national average....

yep it was definitely a sewer before the floods - perhaps they'll flatten it and start again...

Originally posted by skny
Reading a lot about NO in today's papers....sounds like an unstable place even at the best of times, totally corrupt police/admin and a murder rate nearly ten times the US national average....

and with 30% of adults and 50% of children living below the poverty line. Still they're just meaningless statistics now, most of these people will be jobless and homeless refugees perhaps for years to come.

At least the US govt. can take comfort from the fact that there are now a lot less of them than there might have been.

Originally posted by Greybeard
At least the US govt. can take comfort from the fact that there are now a lot less of them than there might have been.

It isn't like you to post a comment like this Greybeard ... Our Governments might be a lot of things we don't always like but I can't imagine the people that comprise the US Government will be taking any comfort from the fact that due to ineptitude and delay on a grand scale, many of their citizens have lost not just possessions, homes and jobs but their very lives.

Did anyone else think the explanation for the non appearance of the British Consul to assist our citizens trapped over there was lame in the extreme? That the Louisiana Governor wouldn't give permission for them to go into New Orleans to check on our people trapped there?

Originally posted by Internetowl
yep it was definitely a sewer before the floods - perhaps they'll flatten it and start again...

I'd have thought this was even MORE reason for the authorities to act quickly, to protect the decent citizens who got caught up in all this devastation. Knowing they'd be totally at the mercy of such animals.

Not all decent people are well-off, you know.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by StarSparkle
I'd have thought this was even MORE reason for the authorities to act quickly, to protect the decent citizens who got caught up in all this devastation. Knowing they'd be totally at the mercy of such animals.

Not all decent people are well-off, you know.

StarSparkle

So true, The government have been warned about the potential risks for years now.

Evidently not high on their agenda for World Domination!

Originally posted by rubydazzler
It isn't like you to post a comment like this Greybeard ... Our Governments might be a lot of things we don't always like but I can't imagine the people that comprise the US Government will be taking any comfort from the fact that due to ineptitude and delay on a grand scale, many of their citizens have lost not just possessions, homes and jobs but their very lives.


My perception is that there was a total lack of care for the people abandoned in the 'refuges' and those trapped in their homes. Ineptitude is perhaps excusable, the callous disregard of the plight of these people is not, and their plight was clearly visible on TV channels around the world from Tuesday onwards.

By the US govt. of course I meant Bush and his cronies, I imagine there were many in the Senate and Congress who were foaming at the mouth with indignation, are still are.

You have to wonder now at the feelings of poor Americans throughout the US. In disasters of this kind are they expendable ? The authorities have shown a reluctance to help them in their hour of greatest need and it seems the security of property is a greater priority than helping those who cannot help themselves.

I really don't understand about the lack of help for British tourists. The consulate in New Orleans presumably took to their heels along with everybody else who had the means to escape. That the Govenor of Louisiana should refuse entry to British embassy staff and yet allow many TV crews access seems a little far fetched to me.

I also have heard that NO was a dodgy place at the best of times. My mum has friends in Huston and when she went to visit she flew to NO and then got an internal flight to Huston. Her friend told her not to leave the airport while in NO and definitely not to make eye contact with anyone!

The people who where left behind in NO did deserve more help, but if the police and the national guard where not having to fight pitch battles with looters etc then help probably would have arrived much quicker. I can still remember the pictures of people running down the streets with TV's just looted from shops.

I can’t help but think maybe some of the people now trapped stayed behind for the purposes of looting.

Is George Bush going to declare a new War on Nature™ ?

Originally posted by Abdul
Is George Bush going to declare a new War on Nature™ ?

That's naughty, Abdul!

That would be so funny if it wasn't so tragic. And I wouldn't write it off as a possibility..... :suspect: 'War on Nature' - yes, it's got a certain ring to it....

StarSparkle

Originally posted by Greybeard
I really don't understand about the lack of help for British tourists. The consulate in New Orleans presumably took to their heels along with everybody else who had the means to escape. That the Govenor of Louisiana should refuse entry to British embassy staff and yet allow many TV crews access seems a little far fetched to me.

Well of course it's a complete pile of twaddle. But what was Tony Blair supposed to say to the nation?

"British Embassy staff were unable to help British citizens stuck in New Orleans because they didn't fancy getting their feet wet"???

As for Bush's War on Nature... I thought he'd done that already!

Originally posted by StarSparkle
That's naughty, Abdul!

That would be so funny if it wasn't so tragic. And I wouldn't write it off as a possibility..... :suspect: 'War on Nature' - yes, it's got a certain ring to it....

StarSparkle

You are right, I am sorry :blush:

I am just so upset that, like so many other natural and man-made disasters in this and the last century, the vast majority of dead and injured are poor and ordinary civilians :(

Are we going finally going to see more action on climate change?

I can't help but think that had a similar incident have occurred in Britain the inhabitants of the affected areas would have pulled together to help each other not started raping innocent women and cruising the streets with guns. There's a lot to be said for the civility of the British people.

Originally posted by Abdul
Are we going finally going to see more action on climate change?

You'd think this would be the normal response of any sane, rational person, wouldn't you?

But I suspect the American governmental reaction will be more along the lines of "It became necessary to destroy the planet in order to save it"....

StarSparkle

Originally posted by StarSparkle
You'd think this would be the normal response of any sane, rational person, wouldn't you?

But I suspect the American governmental reaction will be more along the lines of "It became necessary to destroy the planet in order to save it"....

StarSparkle

And the American flag is raised on Mars! Anybody remember The Jetsons?

Well lets hope Dubya doesn't!

But seriously, Bush was against action on climate change at the G8. And I really don't think he possesses the brain power needed to change his mind!

Originally posted by JonJParr
I can't help but think that had a similar incident have occurred in Britain the inhabitants of the affected areas would have pulled together to help each other not started raping innocent women and cruising the streets with guns. There's a lot to be said for the civility of the British people.

Look at Boscastle last year.

Perfect example.

Originally posted by liencam
Look at Boscastle last year.

Perfect example.

Um, not really, seeing as the area affected in this case is greater than the whole of the UK. When you get so many desperate people within a confined area trouble is bound to occur, whether you're in England, America or Outer Mongolia. It's evidence of the dark, animalistic side of human nature that is revealed when you start to strip away civilisation.

Originally posted by Greenback
Um, not really, seeing as the area affected in this case is greater than the whole of the UK. When you get so many desperate people within a confined area trouble is bound to occur, whether you're in England, America or Outer Mongolia. It's evidence of the dark, animalistic side of human nature that is revealed when you start to strip away civilisation.

I thought we were discussing this in relative scale; If the whole of Britain was engulfed by water I think it's safe to say the law book would go out of the window.

Originally posted by Greenback
Um, not really, seeing as the area affected in this case is greater than the whole of the UK. When you get so many desperate people within a confined area trouble is bound to occur, whether you're in England, America or Outer Mongolia. It's evidence of the dark, animalistic side of human nature that is revealed when you start to strip away civilisation.

Perhaps - but I'm making reference to the cases that occurred specifically within the confines of the New Orleans Superdome that housed some 20,000 people. There are reports of women being raped and then being murdered after. In my opinion, [and that is all it is] I don't believe that British people would act in this way if a similar incident occurred. For example, many of the inhabitants of Birmingham have to seek refuge in the NEC to escape a large storm. Would they begin to rape and murder women in the toilets or be brought closer together in a show of resilience and unity? The latter I feel.

Originally posted by Greenback
It's evidence of the dark, animalistic side of human nature that is revealed when you start to strip away civilisation.

Good comment. But what the hell has happened to you Greenback? Looks like you've grown a huge white beard and morphed into Evil Santa!!!

But maybe if we're going to be relative about it we should compare it to the whole of South Yorkshire being engulfed, and 20,000 people stuck inside the Sheffield Arena.

Originally posted by JBee
Good comment. But what the hell has happened to you Greenback? Looks like you've grown a huge white beard and morphed into Evil Santa!!!
Thats one of the famous Marx brothers you know, Zeppo, Groucho & Karlo :rolleyes: everyone knows that! :hihi:

I hope its ok to post this here, it came from a friend that lives out there.


The media is making me crazy!

This unprecedented disaster in our country's history is still, right now, in an emergency, life and death state -- and the media is trying to sensationalize it! It DOESN'T NEED SENSATIONALIZED!! There is nothing in my life that I have ever heard of that compares to the magnitude of this. The area ravaged by this storm has been said to be the size of Great Britain! There are people all along the Gulf Coast region, especially in Mississippi, who are stranded, helpless, and have seen no aid -- or many media reports either. The finger-pointing is not appropriate right now. The second-guessing is not appropriate right now. Talking about race is not appropriate right now. Later, yes. Not right now!! People are dying RIGHT NOW. People are stranded RIGHT NOW. On one show, I even heard a conversation that sounded dangerously like the people got what they asked for by choosing to live in a below-sea-level city that was located on the gulf. Or for not evacuating. Well, tons of reasons exist for not evacuating, and many that are in trouble tonight are up to 90 miles inland.

The disaster is spread out too wide and too huge for people to grasp it, for relief agencies to cover it, for the government to get to everyone, and for the media to help us understand it.

Let's keep focused every day on doing what we can, one baby step at a time, to help with this in any way we can...and remember that the prevailing thing right now is the courage, generosity, fortitude, and spirit shown by the victims and all the rescuers. The evil is out there in full force, but from what I have seen the good has far overpowered the evil.

I am so afraid that the world is only going to see the ugly, and not the unbelievable heroism taking place right now.

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
Thats one of the famous Marx brothers you know, Zeppo, Groucho & Karlo :rolleyes: everyone knows that! :hihi:

Just a small personal joke. Didn't realise other forumers were going to start making judgements on my intelligence.

You can do that from my other posts, surely? :D

Originally posted by utah
This unprecedented disaster in our country's history is still, right now, in an emergency, life and death state -- and the media is trying to sensationalize it! It DOESN'T NEED SENSATIONALIZED!!

These were my thoughts when I saw a special report at the weekend, regarding the unfortunate bloke whose wife had been swept away.

The poor guy was obviously upset, but the white, female news reporter just shoved a microphone up his nose and patronised him in order to get a response (no doubt she smelt an Emmy, or some other trophy) :|

Originally posted by Abdul
These were my thoughts when I saw a special report at the weekend, regarding the unfortunate bloke whose wife had been swept away.

The poor guy was obviously upset, but the white, female news reporter just shoved a microphone up his nose and patronised him in order to get a response (no doubt she smelt an Emmy, or some other trophy) :|

Abdul - this isn't meant as a personal dig, but I hate the way people always blame reporters for the way the news is portrayed. Journalists are just doing their job by getting to a story first or tackling something aggressively. It means they get the scoop before rival newspapers or channels. Which in turn attracts the consumer - in this case, YOU.

YOU watched that report Abdul. By tuning in you gave your approval to the channel that pays that reporter's salary.

I really wish everyone would stop blaming the media for standards of reporting. Journalists report in a way that best attracts a mass audience. I'm sure there are scores of reporters out there in New Orleans who are just itching to do some really sensative or cutting edge reporting, but their bosses won't let them, because the audience isn't interested.

Originally posted by utah
Let's keep focused every day on doing what we can, one baby step at a time, to help with this in any way we can...and remember that the prevailing thing right now is the courage, generosity, fortitude, and spirit shown by the victims and all the rescuers. The evil is out there in full force, but from what I have seen the good has far overpowered the evil.

I am so afraid that the world is only going to see the ugly, and not the unbelievable heroism taking place right now.

Thank you for posting this, Utah - the world desperately needs to hear this side of things right now.

We all need to be reassured that the Human Spirit still shines brightly at times like these.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by JBee
Abdul - this isn't meant as a personal dig, but I hate the way people always blame reporters for the way the news is portrayed. Journalists are just doing their job by getting to a story first or tackling something aggressively. It means they get the scoop before rival newspapers or channels. Which in turn attracts the consumer - in this case, YOU.

YOU watched that report Abdul. By tuning in you gave your approval to the channel that pays that reporter's salary.

Thanks for your response JBee, no offence taken.

However, it's not as simple as you make out. I was away for several days, so tuned into a BBC News 24 on my return, which was the first report I had seen on the Hurricane.

I watched BBC News 24 because it's a respected news channel. If I wanted shock value, I really would have looked elsewhere!

Perhaps (being a Sunday) they had ran out of 'new' stories, and were reheating old stuff from earlier in the week.

Originally posted by Abdul
Thanks for your response JBee, no offence taken.

However, it's not as simple as you make out. I was away for several days, so tuned into a BBC News 24 on my return, which was the first report I had seen on the Hurricane.

I watched BBC News 24 because it's a respected news channel. If I wanted shock value, I really would have looked elsewhere!

Perhaps (being a Sunday) they had ran out of 'new' stories, and were reheating old stuff from earlier in the week.

I was talking about the mass majority of news consumers Abdul. I appologise to you if you don't fall into that category. But I think a lot of people are quick to moan, but not so quick to change channels or buy a different newspaper, when that's the only real way to make a difference.

Originally posted by JBee
Good comment. But what the hell has happened to you Greenback? Looks like you've grown a huge white beard and morphed into Evil Santa!!!

I have let myself go a bit over recent times, 'tis true. Been really getting into this Hegelian dialectics lark, see. :hihi:

Originally posted by JonJParr
I can't help but think that had a similar incident have occurred in Britain the inhabitants of the affected areas would have pulled together to help each other not started raping innocent women and cruising the streets with guns. There's a lot to be said for the civility of the British people.

Heck it doesn't take a hurricane in Britain. There were riots, arson and looting on the last day of the Leeds festival, and private security operatives dressed in riot gear !

Not sure why, - perhaps somebody closed the bar a bit too early :P

Originally posted by JBee

I really wish everyone would stop blaming the media for standards of reporting. Journalists report in a way that best attracts a mass audience. I'm sure there are scores of reporters out there in New Orleans who are just itching to do some really sensative or cutting edge reporting, but their bosses won't let them, because the audience isn't interested.

:confused: ...don't both the journalists and their bosses work for the media ??

All I want from reporters, and their bosses, is unbiased, accurate and honest reporting of events. I certainly don't want slants or opinions put on the news that pander to my (or anyone else's) supposed prejudices.

Most of the media these days seem to find it impossible to meet this quite simple demand; in fact far from reporting the news much of the media seem more interested in creating it.

IMO journalists and their bosses have become as untrustworthy as politicians, and have altogether lost sight of the difference between fact and opinion.

Apologies of course if you're a journalist :D

My father always maintained that 'Society was 3 missed meals away from anarchy'.

Originally posted by Deavon
My father always maintained that 'Society was 3 missed meals away from anarchy'.

Too true from what's been on the TV news. :(

I suppose if you wanted to compare then imagine the whole of South Yorkshire struck by an immense storm and around 50,000 people were left in their towns while it happened. The whole area is cut off, but some have sheletered in places like the Arena, Meadowhall etc. They have no food, no water and only the clothes they stand up in, they have no toilets, and no privacy. These are the poorest people, from the estates. It wouldn't take very long for it to descend into anarchy.

I could see things going this way during the petrol blockades a few years ago. I saw women fighting over some veg in a supermarket, people had the fuel stolen from their cars and everyone went into a frenzy if anywhere sold petrol. I once waited five hours to get some, and when I did it was rationed to a tenner's worth each. One guy filled up regardless and when challenged he threatened to spray petrol over the attendant. We were only a few days from running out of goods in the shops because they run on the 'just in time' system.

Then you have to look at how people behave when they are determined to do something, such as shopping at christmas, nabbing the last parking space, getting kids into the 'right' school. We live in a country where people are quite happy to vandalise other people's property over something as small as a parking space! Everyone's been there and had the red mist, so being prepared to steal for water isn't too great a step to take.

With NO, there were also a lot of people out there who were lacking their drugs, cigs, beer, whatever kept them sane, and also a lot of mentally unstable people will have lacked their medication. Put into a traumatic situation like they were it isn't surprising (though of course, not excusable) that horrible things happened.

I think I can understand the looting - normal law and order had gone out of the window and the world around them looked rather apocalyptic.. it seemed like no-one was coming to help them.. its understandable that you would feel like you could go and take whatever you wanted..

Its the rape(s) I don't get - surely survival is foremost in peoples minds not sex??

I guess its just opportunism or some wierd end of the world mentality but I found it seriously disturbing. I can't imagine that happening over here if we were in a similar situation.

Originally posted by Anne23

I guess its just opportunism or some wierd end of the world mentality but I found it seriously disturbing. I can't imagine that happening over here if we were in a similar situation.

Of course it would happen over here. You imagine losing your family, and witnessing the destruction of your home, and all your possessions, and being trapped in a building with no water or sanitation, along with 20,000 angry, desperate people with nothing to do for days on end. I'm willing to bet that a fair proportion of them would take the opportunity to take what they want, whether it involved theft, rape or just using you as a punchbag to relieve the frustration. People are people regardless of nationality or wealth, and you'll find plenty of very good and very nasty characters in a sample of 20,000.

And I don't think that the tsunami survivors all pulled together either. Anyone read about the orphaned children who were being targeted by peadophiles for example?

Originally posted by Anne23


Its the rape(s) I don't get - surely survival is foremost in peoples minds not sex??



A little off topic, but this was something that I heard in a seminar once...that studies have been done and a surprising number of men would rape if there were no legal repercussions... Just found this in a journal (any distraction from my essay...)

'between 25 and 60 percent of male college students reported some likelihood that they would rape a woman if they could get away with it (Briere and Malamuth 1983; Russell 1998

A bit scary...not sure of the exact methods used to research, so that would need to be checked out. Anyone else ever read anything similar?

I suppose there aren't many repercussions to rape when your stuck in a disaster zone...

Originally posted by lizs

'between 25 and 60 percent of male college students reported some likelihood that they would rape a woman if they could get away with it (Briere and Malamuth 1983; Russell 1998


That's horrendous. What does that tell you about what goes on in people's heads? That means that the only thing stopping mass rape is not any sort of morality, sense of human decency or understanding, but fear of the consequences of getting caught. Where were these students? Alcatraz library?

Well research was carried out in North American colleges...not sure on it exact location or if it would even be included for reasons of anonymity...I've been told that there has been much similar research done however to validate it...

I really hope that statistic is not a true representation of the feelings of the male population... scary.

Originally posted by Deavon
My father always maintained that 'Society was 3 missed meals away from anarchy'.

I would well agree with that :)

Originally posted by Anne23
I really hope that statistic is not a true representation of the feelings of the male population... scary.


I've thought hard about how I'd answer that question, imagining myself in a totally lawless, anarchic city, and I can honestly say that I'd never stoop to such a base level. I wouldn't hesitate to loot food and water if me, my friends and/or family needed it to survive (though sadly, I'd probably also feel the need to swipe a crate of budweiser or two), even if it was to the detriment of other survivors. But that's about survival, not opportunism (apart from the beer of course). It'd be interesting to hear more about this study...

Originally posted by utah
The evil is out there in full force, but from what I have seen the good has far overpowered the evil.


What evil? I thought this was an act of GoOD. This message started as a plea to stop sensationalising the matter and ended up inferring a battle between good and evil. Can't get much more sensational than that.
Perhaps, in addition to requesting that issues of race and politics are left aside for the time being, the author might also consider leaving out references to the supernatural.

Originally posted by lizs
A little off topic, but this was something that I heard in a seminar once...that studies have been done and a surprising number of men would rape if there were no legal repercussions... Just found this in a journal (any distraction from my essay...)

'between 25 and 60 percent of male college students reported some likelihood that they would rape a woman if they could get away with it (Briere and Malamuth 1983; Russell 1998

A bit scary...not sure of the exact methods used to research, so that would need to be checked out. Anyone else ever read anything similar?

I suppose there aren't many repercussions to rape when your stuck in a disaster zone...

That's very scarey, but almost logical if you think about it. Underneath it all we're still all just animals, and a lot of the sexual encounters in the animal kingdom happen via aggression or force.

I'm not condoning this behaviour at all - I think it's terrifying that so many of our menfolk (fathers, boyfriends ect.) could be involved in this if the world was a different place.

But biologically it does make sense.

I think we need to put everything in to perspective. America has a very high instance of rapes, and certainly the perception that rapes were common place in the Bowl or the convention center are false. They happened, but it wasn't the norm. Probably no more than you would expect if you put 40,000 people together for 2 days, but considering the events and the conditions and the sense of hopelessness, that they had been left, it's not hard to see. Poverty breeds crime, no matter which country you are from. Somebody made a very good point that if it happened in the UK there would be pockets of violence in places. I think there would, and unfortunatly the truth is it would be the areas where people felt most hopeless. You can either say, "what will happen, will happen" or you can make the root causes of this societies problem and try to fix the root cause.

There is far more poverty in NO than you will find anywhere in the U.K. Simply because some of these people may never have seen a doctor, they live day to day. A third of the population were un-insured. These people will get no help, other than a $5000 low interest loan. Their lives are basically gone, no home to return to. Imagine the sense of hopelessness that would breed.

But once again peoples natural instinct to focus on the negative overshadows the positive. In the bowl armed men were protecting people, because the national guard were overwhelmed, and for the most part did not get out of their vehicles. These armed me would go out and "loot" food and water to bring these items back, because the helicopters were dropping food and water from such height it was destroyed. They did this due to unconfirmed reports of people shooting at helicopters. Who ever made those reports should be prosecuted, people died because of them.

There were drug addicts strung out looking for a fix. You would get that in any society, and you get more junkies in poor areas. Everything conspired to make this disaster worse.

Here is an eye whiteness report, I quoted some relevant parts..

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/6/211436/8987


the first day (Wednesday) 4 people died next to her. the second day (Thursday) 6 people died next to her. Denise told me the people around her all thought they had been sent there to die.

completely dehydrated. the crowd tried to keep them all in one area; Denise said the new arrivals had mostly lost their minds. they had gone crazy.

Denise said yes, there were young men with guns there. but they organized the crowd. they went to Canal Street and "looted," and brought back food and water for the old people and the babies, because nobody had eaten in days.

she saw many groups of people decide that they were going to walk across the bridge to the west bank, and those same groups would return, saying that they were met at the top of the bridge by armed police ordering them to turn around, that they weren't allowed to leave.
so they all believed they were sent there to die.