I know a lot of us have huge problems with the American government. But some part of my mind has absorbed all of their spin about being more 'advanced' and 'moral' than other countries that they claim to want to bring justice to. But further to the current disaster of Hurricane Katrina and the absolutely bog all that's been done for the people of Louisiana, isn't about time everyone realised that Bush is just as bad as, say, Mugabe?

With every hour that passes, more people are dying in the floods, or going without. Bush does nothing to remedy this, and yet he has the resources to do so.

This is just too reminiscent of so many things that the African dictators have done. Mugabe knocking down thousands of homes recently for example, and leaving people homeless for no apparent reason, when he has the wealth, that they don't, to develop the whole of Zimbabwe.

My political views aside, I'm not trying to be 'anti-America' unneccessarily, but this is as objective an opinion as I can form on the matter and the facts are there.

I love the late night political stuff, Thank You!:)

How could you compare Mugabe:

The only white man you can trust is a dead white man."

"Our party must continue to strike fear in the heart of the white man, our real enemy!"

to Bush:

"But Iraq has—have got people there that are willing to kill, and they're hard-nosed killers. And we will work with the Iraqis to secure their future." —April 28, 2005

"It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way."—April 28, 2005


"After all, Europe is America's closest ally."—Feb. 23, 2005
"This notion that the United States is getting ready to attack Iran is simply ridiculous. And having said that, all options are on the table."—Feb. 22, 2005

"There's still a lot of Queens in George Tenet."—Washington D.C., Dec. 14, 2004

"We thought we were protected forever from trade policy or terrorist attacks because oceans protected us."—Speech to business leaders at APEC Summit, Santiago, Chile, Nov. 20, 2004

"I know it is in the interest of the Palestinian people that they can live in ... a society in which they can realize their dreams if they happen to be an entrepreneur."—Washington, D.C., Nov. 12, 2004

"The CIA laid out several scenarios and said life could be lousy, life could be OK, life could be better, and they were just guessing as to what the conditions might be like."—New York, Sept. 21, 2004

"Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat."—Washington, D.C., Sept. 17, 2004

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."—Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004 (Thanks to Alicia Butler.)

"Justice was being delivered to a man who defied that gift from the Almighty to the people of Iraq."—Washington, D.C., Dec. 15, 2003

"[A]s you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say."—Washington, D.C., Oct. 28, 2003

"Do you have blacks, too?"—To Brazilian President Fernando Cardoso, Washington, D.C., Nov. 8, 2001

"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."—Sunday, September 16, 2001

"This is a world that is much more uncertain than the past. In the past we were certain, we were certain it was us versus the Russians in the past. We were certain, and therefore we had huge nuclear arsenals aimed at each other to keep the peace. That's what we were certain of...You see, even though it's an uncertain world, we're certain of some things. We're certain that even though the 'evil empire' may have passed, evil still remains. We're certain there are people that can't stand what America stands for...We're certain there are madmen in this world, and there's terror, and there's missiles and I'm certain of this, too: I'm certain to maintain the peace, we better have a military of high morale, and I'm certain that under this administration, morale in the military is dangerously low."—Albuquerque, N.M., the Washington Post, May 31, 2000


One is a dictator and the other is puppet fool!

This disaster, and America, troubles me too noserosie, but i'm not sure of where the blame lies.

A cynic might predict that Bush would be doing everything right now: only for public opinion to swing in his favour in such a global event.

I think the escalating problems are more due to a collective fault of the west, which American commerce typically represents: look after yourself.

Mugabe's destruction of shanty homes is a sin of commission.

Bush's failure to respond adequately to the aftermath of a natural disaster (hurricane Katrina) is a sin of omission.

'I am alright Jack pull the ladder up' scenario was also present with the Kyoto Protocol.

Initially, most of the major industrialized countries were supposed to participate, but in 2001, the United States pulled out!!

It has taken almost eight years for the Kyoto Protocol, a multilateral treaty requiring industrialized nations to reduce their greenhouse emissions, to come into force in 2005.

In fact, the United States is the largest emitter of greenhouse gases, with approximately 35 percent of worldwide emissions. But, as was noted by the American government before withdrawing from the treaty, adhering to the Kyoto Protocol would cause serious consequences in an already weakened American economy, resulting in a less competitive economy in international markets.

What's that called then....looking after number 1 I'd say....and just look at what we pay for our fuel too...:o

and I was sooooo going to bed... Damn!

America is generally a benign (to us) and secure partner. (The grout in the bricks of world security).

God bless America! (http://www.foxy-productions.com/GodBlessTheUSA.html)

Originally posted by Deavon
God bless America! (http://www.foxy-productions.com/GodBlessTheUSA.html)

:gag:

Yucky. Thing is, I'd expect that Bush would take advantage of the current situation and go all hero-like on the disaster to gain the somewhat dwindling support of the American people (dwindling is possibly a bit of an overstatement, but I think a few of the more clued-up ones watching the outside media are getting a bit peed off over Iraq). But instead, to my amazement (and horror in humanitarian terms) he does nothing. It's surely a PR opportunity (yes I KNOW I'm being crude but I'm thinking in the mindset of his PRs) missed?!

Bush; I dislike* the man.

But I like America and I like the American people. I hope we can all see the difference.

*(wanted to say hate but that isn't in me)

Bush: The mans a snake. Seems to think that by running USA that hes running the entire world. One of the worst US Presidents to date imo.

Originally posted by Deavon
Bush; I dislike* the man.

But I like America and I like the Ameican people. I hope we can all see the difference.

*(wanted to say hate but that isn't in me)

Absolutely. I say hate :D .

Actually, I've liked all the Americans I've met, but I'd find it hard to like any of the idiots who voted Bush back in.

And I do hate the insular attitude of America too.

And the awful awful capitalist greed - face it guys, money over human life? Really?

But APART from that...:hihi:

Good Lord.

I am, what is the term you Brits use? Gobsmacked?

I am gobsmacked, hurt, sad, and angry at the venom, hatred, misinformation and ignorance displayed on this thread, and the Hurricane Katrina thread.

I find it both depressing and frustrating that so few of you want to hear the opinions of a real American actually living in America, and even fewer people believe them after they've heard them.

Not all Americans are insular, rosie. This is one American who bothered to seek out people halfway around the world from myself, and find out about life in a part of the world very different from where I live.

Lately, I've seriously been considering if I should continue being a member of the SF. As much as I enjoy hearing about life in Sheffield, and England, and all of you, and your day to day lives, I sometimes feel as unwelcome and out of place as a duck in a chicken coop. I know. DUH. You all have some connection to Sheffield, and I really have none. I picked YOUR city, out of all the other cities in England because it looked more interesting than all the others, but perhaps this isn't the right place for me.

When I first joined, Joe P joked that, "he hoped I wouldn't have to spend all my time on the forum defending my country". I think he had a crystal ball.

To those of you who reached out to me with your kind e-mails and pm's, THANK YOU. I can't tell you how it made my day to get a nice word from someone.

Anyone who wants to contact me, please use e-mail, as I don't know when I will next check my pm inbox.

:) Sierra

You're like a breath of spring, Sierra. You bring into this forum all that is good about the country I live in and love. I was welcomed with open arms by people just like you, or as near like you as New Englanders can be to Californians. I am both proud of my homeland which withstood two years of war with Hitler alone, with a spirit of comradeship I had never seen before, and ashamed of the spite and hatred being spat at an ally and friend by people who have lost that civility that was once the definition of being British.

Sierra and Buck. As you know, we don't all hate America on this forum. Don't let the half-baked ravings of our resident student lefties get to you.

It's SO fashionable to voice your hatred for the USA down at the student's union bar these days, I believe ;)

Sadly, though, they even try to turn a major human tragedy like the New Orleans floods into an American bashing exercise (just as they have many times before, starting with 9/11).

Politicians are the same the world over, that doesn't mean we should hate the people because of their leaders.

I cannot believe that anyone could compare Bush to Mugabe.
JUst for the record, It was the British that created the Zimbabwe of today yet do nothing to help the people being killed or farms being taken and homes being bulldozed.
THey do however, give money to Mugabe so that he can carry on his deeds.

The Hurricane disaster cleanup is an enormous task for any country to carry out and will not be achieved in a week.
I am sure that the American people are doing all they can to help those involved.
THey did at least try to evacuate the people of these areas before the hurricane struck which does show that they were on the ball and thought about their wellbeing instead of just keeping quiet.


Funny how countries around the world had a tsunami appeal for those in indonesia etc, yet sit back and do nothing when it comes down to people in the UK and the US going through disasters that may seem less destructive but are to those involved, The same!

Hi Sierra,

No crystal ball, just several years of experiencing what gets called 'knee jerk anti-americanism' over here since the 1980s. I used to really upset come of my friends by refusing to damn the USA at every opportunity.

I'm so sorry that you feel that you're unable to participate here - I hope you realise that we aren't all bigotted against the US. We aren't all that way inclined; just a vocal minority.

My heart goes out to the folks who've lost everything in the hurricane; it's not a time for taking cheap shots. At a news conference last night Clinton was on the same platform as Bush. If these political opponents can bury the hatchet for a while then perhaps we can shut up and leave the polticing until they've at lest started burying the dead.

Buck, we've not all become uncivilised.

I'm proud the the UK has a long history of friendship with the US. I may sometimes deplore the actions of the US government, but when push comes to shove I'd rather stand with the US than with any other nation in the world.

A Brit may have come first in the lottery of life when considering his nationhood, but a yank comes a darn close second. :)

God bless you all over there right now.

Joe

Originally posted by JoeP
Hi Sierra,

No crystal ball, just several years of experiencing what gets called 'knee jerk anti-americanism' over here since the 1980s. I used to really upset come of my friends by refusing to damn the USA at every opportunity.

I'm so sorry that you feel that you're unable to participate here - I hope you realise that we aren't all bigotted against the US. We aren't all that way inclined; just a vocal minority.

My heart goes out to the folks who've lost everything in the hurricane; it's not a time for taking cheap shots. At a news conference last night Clinton was on the same platform as Bush. If these political opponents can bury the hatchet for a while then perhaps we can shut up and leave the polticing until they've at lest started burying the dead.

Buck, we've not all become uncivilised.

I'm proud the the UK has a long history of friendship with the US. I may sometimes deplore the actions of the US government, but when push comes to shove I'd rather stand with the US than with any other nation in the world.

A Brit may have come first in the lottery of life when considering his nationhood, but a yank comes a darn close second. :)

God bless you all over there right now.

Joe

Very well said JoeP! I can only echo what that last few posters are saying.

I suspect that anything bad inside or from the USA will be jumped on by the anti-USA group and especially the Stop the War group.

Comparing Mugabe with Bush is ludicrous (sorry Rosie!). I am not a great fan of Bush although i was of Clinton. But as a country it's USA for me all the way.

Please keeping postuing Sierra and dont always feel you have to keep defending the USA.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
I know a lot of us have huge problems with the American government. But some part of my mind has absorbed all of their spin about being more 'advanced' and 'moral' than other countries that they claim to want to bring justice to. But further to the current disaster of Hurricane Katrina and the absolutely bog all that's been done for the people of Louisiana, isn't about time everyone realised that Bush is just as bad as, say, Mugabe?

With every hour that passes, more people are dying in the floods, or going without. Bush does nothing to remedy this, and yet he has the resources to do so.

This is just too reminiscent of so many things that the African dictators have done. Mugabe knocking down thousands of homes recently for example, and leaving people homeless for no apparent reason, when he has the wealth, that they don't, to develop the whole of Zimbabwe.

My political views aside, I'm not trying to be 'anti-America' unneccessarily, but this is as objective an opinion as I can form on the matter and the facts are there.

I think the thing with this is that Bush has done bugger all as the people involved are poor and black. That really aint part of the demographic Geirge is after. What does he care whether black people die in a natural disaster or in Iraq? He has is supply of "to poor and no jobs black people from the Sotuh to fill the army" already.

Mugabe has intellegence where as Bush makes Regan look bright. Bush isn't a dictator. getting compliance seems easy in the States. Just wave the flag a bit and accuse some random tin-pot dictatorship of threatening to destroy the American Freedoms 9whilst doing it yourself)

Just because Bush is a - well, I can't say what he is here - but it doesn't make all Americans the same!

At the end of the day Bush is a politician. He is also a politician who doesn't have to think about re-election. He is a man who is no doubt pre-occupied with how he will line his pockets AFTER he has finished his second term.

I also wonder whether the socio-economic make-up of those most in need following Hurrican Katrina has anything to do with the slow response. Republicans are hardly going to press for an all-out effort for people who are mainly poor and black, and are already extremely unlikely to ever vote Republican.

Originally posted by banesmabes
Just because Bush is a - well, I can't say what he is here - but it doesn't make all Americans the same!

At the end of the day Bush is a politician. He is also a politician who doesn't have to think about re-election. He is a man who is no doubt pre-occupied with how he will line his pockets AFTER he has finished his second term.

I also wonder whether the socio-economic make-up of those most in need following Hurrican Katrina has anything to do with the slow response. Republicans are hardly going to press for an all-out effort for people who are mainly poor and black, and are already extremely unlikely to ever vote Republican.

sorry but do people not understand this.

THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS HAVE VOTED FOR HIM

ALMOST HALF THE VOTERS CHOSE HIM THE FIRST TIME.

poor Americans. They voted him in. I know every American I seem to know says it isn't their fault. Well sorry, democratic process and all....

Originally posted by robbie
sorry but do people not understand this.

THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS HAVE VOTED FOR HIM

ALMOST HALF THE VOTERS CHOSE HIM THE FIRST TIME.

poor Americans. They voted him in. I know every American I seem to know says it isn't their fault. Well sorry, democratic process and all....

Turnout in American elections is notoriously low compared to other countries (even here), so to say a majority of Americans voted for Bush is pushing it a bit! Turnout among black Americans is even lower because they feel so under-represented by politicians and completely dis-illusioned. Yes, you can argue that they should vote to even begin to change things - but that does not mean that these people deserve to die DAYS after this storm occurred in what is the richest country in the world because a dithering president can't see the gain to be had from mounting a swift response.

Edit - Have just looked up some statistics on the 2004 election. Bush won with 51% of the popular vote, with approximately a 60% turnout. This means that less than one in three Americans eligible to vote actually voted for Bush.

Now, what would certain people on this Forum be saying if we made these sorts of generalisations about other social, political or racial groups?

I am sickened by bigotry of any sort. When that's combined with hypocrisy I just give up in disgust.

Joe

USA all the way here too. Making intellectually weak lefty jabs in the immediate aftermath of a horrendous natural disaster seems crude and gratuitous.

Sierra and Buck,

Thank goodness you are not posting on a French of German forum, as the loathing and contempt for all things American amongst a certain section of the French and German populations is truly staggering.

In the latter case, this was brought home to me some years ago when I attended a large conference in Germany on the subject of the cold war. After listening to anti-American diatribes by speaker after speaker (mainly left-wing German students) an American diplomat who had been invited to speak at the conference strode on to the podium and asked: 'well, who is the biggest danger to world peace. the USA or the Soviet Union?' By a show of hands, a clear majority voted for the US as the biggest danger. Moreover, at the same conference, a Soviet diplomat was treated with warmth and courtesy by the same group of students. As far as the pathological hatred of the US in France (again, only by a vocal minority it needs to be said) well,, whole books and PhD theses have been written on the subject.

Thank goodness, the strain of anti-Americanism in the UK is far weaker than in continental Europe. It unfortunately exists, and is vocal. It also seeks outlets, by looking for any and every opportunity to pour scorn, contempt and even hatred on the US. Partly it is due to sheer ignorance of what the US is and how it works. Indeed the word ignorance (of history, culture, politics and economics) goes a long way to encapsulate its causes. It is may also be partly due to a kind of free floating resentment against the success of the American system, held by unreconstructed leftists hankering after collectivist utopias of one kind or another, of the kind Karl Popper described in his seminal work 'The Open Society and its Enemies'.

But these attitudes are far outweighed by positive feelings towards the US. A German statesman once said that you can ask most British people, regardless of gender, class or age, which is the farthest distance, the English channel or the Atlantic ocean. He argued that in terms of affinity and psychological distance, the English channel is a far greater distance than the Atlantic ocean. It is no mere accident of history that virtually every British prime minister (whether Tory of Labour) has forged a much closer relationship with the US president of the day than has any European statesman.

The US is not perfect. No country is, ever has been, or ever will be. But as countries go, it is a very fine country indeed (I speak as someone who has lived and worked in the US and indeed in several other countries around the world. The only one I would want to live in, or indeed felt really comfortable in, was the US). Indeed, if I had a choice I would prefer to live in the US than anywhere else on earth (now what did I put my Green Card form?).

Originally posted by Delboy3
Funny how countries around the world had a tsunami appeal for those in indonesia etc, yet sit back and do nothing when it comes down to people in the UK and the US going through disasters that may seem less destructive but are to those involved, The same!

There is an important difference, however - the tsunami struck with no warning, whereas everyone knew Katrina was on its way.

I heard on the radio this morning that the hurricane devastated area of the U.S. is now rife with looting, murder and rape.

I don't recall hearing of any survivors of the Tsunami and other Asian floods doing this kind of thing.

Originally posted by alchresearch
I heard on the radio this morning that the hurricane devastated area of the U.S. is now rife with looting, murder and rape.

I don't recall hearing of any survivors of the Tsunami and other Asian floods doing this kind of thing.

I doubt that everyone in the Tsunami was an angel. I seem to remember cases of child kidnapping, though. Also, I guess that there was probably not as much to loot.

And, unfortunately, it does seem that people in New Orleans have become more desperate, more quickly. We in the West are not used to this sort of massive disaster and probably go to pieces faster.

Combine that with availability of weapons, large numbers of survivors crammed in to unsanitary close confinement, no policing....it's inevitable. I daresay it would hapen in Hong Kong and other cities in the Far East until martial law was imposed if it happened there.

Joe

Originally posted by JoeP
We in the West are not used to this sort of massive disaster and probably go to pieces faster.

Although certainly not on the same scale, I remember a few incidents during the fuel protests a couple of years ago, particularly in Bolton where my work was based. One guy was beaten up for jumping the queue and another fuel station put what I can only call a 'racially insensitive' sign outside his forecourt.

Originally posted by alchresearch
Although certainly not on the same scale, I remember a few incidents during the fuel protests a couple of years ago, particularly in Bolton where my work was based. One guy was beaten up for jumping the queue and another fuel station put what I can only call a 'racially insensitive' sign outside his forecourt.

There is an old saying about being three sqaure meals away from anarchy and revolution. I guess that holds as true today as it did 50 years ago.

I would expect a similar breakdown to occur in any European city - even in the UK.

Joe

My goodness! All these posts!

I thought I'd made it clear that I truly sympathised with the people suffering the hurricane? I thought I'd said that my sympathies were increased by the fact that so many more could have been saved if it wasn't due to the slowness of the government?

I also thought I'd said I wasn't anti-American people (although I stand by saying that I would probably find it hard to get on with anyone who voted Bush in for a second term when it came to politics), but revolted by the way it (and this isn't just America - there are a lot of governments who do the same, I'm just using the exampleas we were talking about it already) puts profits before it's people.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear?

Am I really such a loony leftist student hippy (or whatever today's variation is) for preferring humanitarianism over greed?

Originally posted by banesmabes
I also wonder whether the socio-economic make-up of those most in need following Hurrican Katrina has anything to do with the slow response. Republicans are hardly going to press for an all-out effort for people who are mainly poor and black, and are already extremely unlikely to ever vote Republican.

This is what has most upset me about the situation in New Orleans - the callous disregard for human life that is seen as less than economically viable.

Holding human life so cheaply is the kind of thing I'd associate with the Third World - but that's only because resources to help/save people are likely to be lacking due to poverty.

I have always believed that capitalism as an economic system held human life to be less valuable than money/profit. But the extent to which the New Orleans crisis has proved this to be horrifyingly true has stunned me. Whatever my head said, in my heart I always thought that sheer humanity would win out. Looks like I was wrong.

I think I was in shock the other night watching the news. I simply couldn't believe what had been allowed to happen in the world's most powerful and rich country. Americans shamefully abandoned by their own government. It is literally unbelievable - but it has happened in front of our eyes.

Words cannot convey the moral vacuum.

StarSparkle

I totally agree StarSparkle, how desperate does it have to be to get the mayor of New Orleans begging for aid on national TV, labelling his own government's response as "a disgrace"? For Bush to only be reacting now is criminal negligence.

I can understand the weariness that JoeP expresses about anti-Americanism; the US is a great country with immense cultural diversity, populated by a majority who should not be tarred with the same brush as their President. But, as the self-declared "Leaders Of The Free World", the US administration invite and deserve criticism when they fail to uphold the Western, civilised values they are too keen to bestow with their foreign policy.

I also think that a lot of British US-bashing stems from our closeness to them and from a subconscious fear of becoming the 51st State. We're fortunate to have a pretty unregulated media in this country, where journalists have a freedom to express a non-government angle and provide a more balanced and informed spread of issues. In the US, practically all the media tows the Republican line (to the extent of lying on the Govt's behalf in the case of Fox News) so is it really surprising that Bush made a second term? The American people aren't to blame, if you're told salt is sugar enough times, chances are you'll start to believe it.

why is george bush disregarding human life.?

if u were instructed to leave your home for your own safety why would you not comply?

i bet if they said free tv's & fridges in the next state some of the people would have managed to get themelves there for that event.

Originally posted by willman
why is george bush disregarding human life.?

if u were instructed to leave your home for your own safety why would you not comply?

i bet if they said free tv's & fridges in the next state some of the people would have managed to get themelves there for that event.

Err, don't you think that's a tad flippant? There are countless reasons why some people might not have left the city in time. No money perhaps? No transport? To say they would have jumped at the chance to snag themselves a free tv in a neighbouring state is wildly out of order and akin to saying "f**K them, they deserved to die".

Originally posted by Tubthump
Err, don't you think that's a tad flippant? There are countless reasons why some people might not have left the city in time. No money perhaps? No transport? To say they would have jumped at the chance to snag themselves a free tv in a neighbouring state is wildly out of order and akin to saying "f**K them, they deserved to die".

never said that & i strongly resent your implications.
it costs nowt to walk. they were given 48 hours minimum notice before the hurricane came close, they were told to evacuate.
p'haps more effort should have been put into getting away from the place by the residents instead of clinging onto their possessions.

Originally posted by willman
never said that & i strongly resent your implications.
it costs nowt to walk. they were given 48 hours minimum notice before the hurricane came close, they were told to evacuate.
p'haps more effort should have been put into getting away from the place by the residents instead of clinging onto their possessions.

WALK!! Do you have any idea how big the US is? Or any idea about how big an area was affected by Hurricane Katrina? People are being evacuated to Houston - this is 350 miles away. I'd like to see you walk that far in 2 days! And I'd like to see you do it carrying the essentials you need and screaming, exhausted children in tow!

Originally posted by banesmabes
WALK!! ....... And I'd like to see you do it carrying the essentials you need and screaming, exhausted children in tow!

The Afghans & Iraqis managed it when Uncle Sam rolled in.


{sorry just mischief but relevant none the less}

Originally posted by banesmabes
WALK!! Do you have any idea how big the US is? Or any idea about how big an area was affected by Hurricane Katrina? People are being evacuated to Houston - this is 350 miles away. I'd like to see you walk that far in 2 days! And I'd like to see you do it carrying the essentials you need and screaming, exhausted children in tow!

you do whats necessary, & i would be the first off my fat ass and on my way outta state.

i'd like to be walking past you when the biggest natural disaster in your life was bearing down on sheffield, and you were atill playing computer games or posting on forums.
many can find the energy to walk 50-100 miles since it's happened. obviously now everyone could do this but why just sit & wait for it to happen.

The gulf states suffer hurricane after hurricane after hurricane.
By good luck most of them cause a few roof shingles to come off, or some mobile homes to overturn. Florida has a very good hurricane response program. Mobile home owners have to vacate by law when a hurricane is threatened as well as those who live shore side in regular homes.
Unfortunately Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana became complacent as Florida, and some parts of Georgia and the Carolinas seemed to be the habitual victims.
As it happens, just before this happened, I was reading about a fllood disaster that occured here in Connecticut in 1958 with several hundred deaths from a major rainstorm in the after math of a hurricane. Once again a case of complacency from a state a long way from the gulf.
This in no way absolves Bush from any criticism of his response.
It was uncaring and late. While he cannot be reelected, his party will suffer accordingly next year.
He is visiting Alabama, and Mississiooi, but is not going to go into Louisiana, leaving that chore to his wife, Laura.
Want to know why? The governors of Alabama, and Mississippi are republicans, but of Louisiana Democrat. Bush doesn't care to go anywhere they might shout at him.
I think you might guess from all this that I did not vote for him, so don't need to apologize, but I will anyway. Sorry

Originally posted by Greenback
There is an important difference, however - the tsunami struck with no warning, whereas everyone knew Katrina was on its way.
And this gives anyone the right to say that they do not deserve any help from anyone?

We had the same type of floods in the UK without warning yet no one gave a chit as to helping them in any way......
Everyone carries on about the US not doing things for their own whilst we have the same problem here!

Sounds to me that people are quick to defame someone in another country yet fail to do the same when it happens in our country.

I suppose that, If you are not affected by these disasters then it is easy to say what you want about anything....just so long as it does not affect you and you don't have to put your money where your mouth is!

Originally posted by willman
you do whats necessary, & i would be the first off my fat ass and on my way outta state.

i'd like to be walking past you when the biggest natural disaster in your life was bearing down on sheffield, and you were atill playing computer games or posting on forums.
many can find the energy to walk 50-100 miles since it's happened. obviously now everyone could do this but why just sit & wait for it to happen.

I am not sure I would walk if I knew I only had 48 hours to walk out of harms way of a hurricane that will cover several hundred square miles. Would you walk and risk being stuck out in the middle of nowhere with no shelter when the hurricane hit, or stay at home in the shelter of your home, hoping you will come through ok and if you didn't hoping that your own government will do all it can to help you?

Yeah, and also if my maths is right you would have to walk at a constant rate of 7.3 mph to make it in time (thats all day and all night). Disabled? Elderly? Sigh, the local government should have provided transport, end of.

Originally posted by banesmabes
Turnout in American elections is notoriously low compared to other countries (even here), so to say a majority of Americans voted for Bush is pushing it a bit! Turnout among black Americans is even lower because they feel so under-represented by politicians and completely dis-illusioned. Yes, you can argue that they should vote to even begin to change things - but that does not mean that these people deserve to die DAYS after this storm occurred in what is the richest country in the world because a dithering president can't see the gain to be had from mounting a swift response.

Edit - Have just looked up some statistics on the 2004 election. Bush won with 51% of the popular vote, with approximately a 60% turnout. This means that less than one in three Americans eligible to vote actually voted for Bush.

tbh anyone who didn't vote is almost as culpable as Bush voters.

Wss there an all you can eat cows arse on?

did McD's have a buy one cow testicle burger get 10 free?

thought not, or were the electorate too busy eating kettle chips and watching cartoons.

streesful life in your trailer.....


end of the day.

The majority of Americans voted for Bush. Any whinging Americans 9it seems eevryone) may want to post exactly what they did to back Kerry....

I'm fed up of Yanks whinging about this. move fat arse and do somthing about it...

My point is that it's really stupid to compare a spontaneous event which killed half a million - that's HALF A MILLION people - with one which, although tragic and fully deserving of our help through the Red Cross, could and should have been much better prepared for.

I don't think comparisons such as these serve any purpose other than to expose innate prejudices, to be honest.

Robbie,what do you know about America, you stupid pr..k.
Get off the forum and fix youe acne or summat.

well done clever Buck.

I'm sorry if you are an American. Move to Canada they are nice there :thumbsup:

muppet

Originally posted by robbie

end of the day.

The majority of Americans voted for Bush. Any whinging Americans 9it seems eevryone) may want to post exactly what they did to back Kerry....

I'm fed up of Yanks whinging about this. move fat arse and do somthing about it...

Erm - I thought I pointed out that the majority of Americans DIDN'T vote for Bush. At least the last time I looked one in three was nowhere near a majority!

Originally posted by robbie
well done clever Buck.

I'm sorry if you are an American. Move to Canada they are nice there :thumbsup:

muppet


Yeah Buck - and whatever you do, DON'T move to Britain because unfortunately if everyone has Robbie's attitude then we're not nice!

I also lived in Canada, a wonderful, caring nation.You wouldn't belong there either.

Originally posted by JoeP
There is an old saying about being three sqaure meals away from anarchy and revolution. I guess that holds as true today as it did 50 years ago.

I would expect a similar breakdown to occur in any European city - even in the UK.

Joe

True Joe.

Heres a riddle. What's the difference between 200 Sunday School teachers, and a bloodthirsty, howling, mob?

Answer:72 hours without food or water.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
My goodness! All these posts!

I thought I'd made it clear that I truly sympathised with the people suffering the hurricane? I thought I'd said that my sympathies were increased by the fact that so many more could have been saved if it wasn't due to the slowness of the government?

I also thought I'd said I wasn't anti-American people (although I stand by saying that I would probably find it hard to get on with anyone who voted Bush in for a second term when it came to politics), but revolted by the way it (and this isn't just America - there are a lot of governments who do the same, I'm just using the exampleas we were talking about it already) puts profits before it's people.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear?

Am I really such a loony leftist student hippy (or whatever today's variation is) for preferring humanitarianism over greed?

Made yourself clear? I'd say you sure have. Look kiddo. When you start a thread entitled, "Is America just as bad as all of the dictator countries?" It's pretty obvious how you ALREADY feel about your own question.

rosie, I know you have nothing against me personally, nor I against you. I'm aware that you're only 18. You are such an intelligent young woman, and if you were my girl, I'd be proud of you, no doubt about that. I have a daughter who's 17, so consider this some motherly advice.

Be careful what you say, and who you say it to. Your words have tremendous power. They have the power to wound, and the power to heal. The power to enrage, and the power to soothe.

One day, your child's self esteem, your spouse's attitude, whether the cop gives you the ticket or lets you go with a warning, your next raise, your job, your life, may depend on what you say, how you say it, and whom you say it to.

Sometimes, discretion IS the better part of valor.

I lost my temper on the forum recently, something I swore I'd never do, and I regret it very much. Even though I apologized, I cannot take those words back. Don't put yourself in that position.

Some of the things you and others have posted about my country are simply not true, and frankly, I've found them to be hurtful and judgemental.

As I said in my earlier post on this thread, I feel increasingly that I am in the wrong place, and maybe it's time for me to go. I may be back at a later date, I don't know. Some of you I have enjoyed having the chance to talk and share opinions with, even if we didn't see eye to eye.

And to answer your question rosie, Is America just as bad as all of the dictator countries? No. We are much worse. The dictator countries don't have the military might and technology to bomb any country, anywhere in the world, back to the stone age. God help the rest of the world if we ever decide to be the superpower we could be.

Anyone who would like to contact me, Joe P, Kristian, and BoroughGal have my e-mail address.

Bye all,

:) Sierra

Originally posted by banesmabes
Yeah Buck - and whatever you do, DON'T move to Britain because unfortunately if everyone has Robbie's attitude then we're not nice!

oh I'm sorry sweetcheeks in your books it's ok to call me a ***** and then tell me to go and sort my acne out. In my country Buck would get a slap on his big fat arse.

Originally posted by buck
I also lived in Canada, a wonderful, caring nation.You wouldn't belong there either.

grow up frat boy. I didn't start personally insulting you like the petty person you are. Can't argue. shock you are American after all. keep on with the insults bud.

Originally posted by banesmabes
Erm - I thought I pointed out that the majority of Americans DIDN'T vote for Bush. At least the last time I looked one in three was nowhere near a majority!

semantics. the majority of Americans who voted voted for Bush. The people who didn't vote could be classed as hardly caring.

Originally posted by robbie
oh I'm sorry sweetcheeks in your books it's ok to call me a ***** and then tell me to go and sort my acne out. In my country Buck would get a slap on his big fat arse.

Please don't patronise me by calling me such things as 'sweetcheeks' and please point out exactly where I have called you a ***** and told you to sort your acne out. I think you will find I have not said anything of the sort. If in your country "Buck would get a big slap on his fat arse" then I really do fear for this country.

I find it quite amusing that you are arguing that America is full of the kind of people that you are being a perfect example of right now!

Originally posted by banesmabes
Please don't patronise me by calling me such things as 'sweetcheeks' and please point out exactly where I have called you a ***** and told you to sort your acne out. I think you will find I have not said anything of the sort. If in your country "Buck would get a big slap on his fat arse" then I really do fear for this country.

I find it quite amusing that you are arguing that America is full of the kind of people that you are being a perfect example of right now!

you diodn't call me that, he did. And then you backed him up without obviously bothering to read the posts.

well done.

Originally posted by robbie
you diodn't call me that, he did. And then you backed him up without obviously bothering to read the posts.

well done.

No. I read the posts and then comment. You read the posts and read things that aren't even there. Read them again and you will see that in no way did I support Buck's assertion that you were a ***** who needed to sort your acne out. I only pointed out that you're not exactly selling Britain as being full of particularly nice, welcoming people - which I find amusing as you are accusing the US of being full of people who seem to be exactly like you. I'm sorry if you can't see the irony there.

Originally posted by banesmabes
No. I read the posts and then comment. You read the posts and read things that aren't even there. Read them again and you will see that in no way did I support Buck's assertion that you were a prick who needed to sort your acne out. I only pointed out that you're not exactly selling Britain as being full of particularly nice, welcoming people - which I find amusing as you are accusing the US of being full of people who seem to be exactly like you. I'm sorry if you can't see the irony there.

I responded to being personally insuleted and you backe dthe person who insulted me up.

what does that make you?

I have no issue with individual Americans. In fact I hadn't a bad word to say about Buck until he called me a ***** and told me to sirt my acne out.

you obviously agree with himas you ahven't criticised him for saying this so cary on

anyway I retract any personal argument from both of you as this is going off topic...

Originally posted by robbie
I responded to being personally insuleted and you backe dthe person who insulted me up.

what does that make you?

I have no issue with individual Americans. In fact I hadn't a bad word to say about Buck until he called me a ***** and told me to sirt my acne out.

you obviously agree with himas you ahven't criticised him for saying this so cary on

Let me get this straight. I can't back someone up for defending their country against the ridiculous stereotypes that you hold against them (which, may I remind you, you made comments about this BEFORE Buck's comments to you)? I never said I agreed with the things he said to you. It is YOU who are assuming that I agree with them. Just because I have chosen to support Buck in his opposition to the stereotypes you hold about the US does not mean I agree with petty name calling. You then went on the patronise me and treat me as I have said these things. You are making huge assumptions about me which I do not appreciate.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
But further to the current disaster of Hurricane Katrina and the absolutely bog all that's been done for the people of Louisiana, isn't about time everyone realised that Bush is just as bad as, say, Mugabe?

I think the difference is that Bush has made a mistake in not being fast enough to get things organised in Louisiana, whereas Mugabe is deliberately carrying out despicable policies. In my opinion, a very stupid and unfair comparison.

Originally posted by Patchy
I think the difference is that Bush has made a mistake in not being fast enough to get things organised in Louisiana, whereas Mugabe is deliberately carrying out despicable policies. In my opinion, a very stupid and unfair comparison.

I know, I know. I'm not literally suggesting the comparison.

What occurred to me, however, was that the situation at the time of writing - devastation + governmental negligence - could've been scenes from a developing country.

I don't see Bush as a dictator at all - I despise what he stands for, but I'm fully aware that he's not in charge of the country at all, aside from the compilcated federal system (e.g. the president has no influence on congress), big business is now so linked in with politics it's hard to seperate the two - other people make the decisions, he seems a bit of a puppet....or more accurately, muppet.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
I know, I know. I'm not literally suggesting the comparison.

What occurred to me, however, was that the situation at the time of writing - devastation + governmental negligence - could've been scenes from a developing country.

I don't see Bush as a dictator at all - I despise what he stands for, but I'm fully aware that he's not in charge of the country at all, aside from the compilcated federal system (e.g. the president has no influence on congress), big business is now so linked in with politics it's hard to seperate the two - other people make the decisions, he seems a bit of a puppet....or more accurately, muppet.

Then why did you suggest that very thing in the title of the thread?

Your immaturity is palpable sometimes.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Then why did you suggest that very thing in the title of the thread?

Your immaturity is palpable sometimes.

I think that's unfair. She may not be phrasing her arguments as diplomatically as some would like, but if only more young people gave a sh*t like Rosie, the world would be a better place. To call her immature when this forum has been the platform for rabid BNP endorcers is frankly patronising. Is it really that bad to take a humanitarian stance?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Then why did you suggest that very thing in the title of the thread?

The day the hurricane happend I was actually expecting a thread along these lines to be started by an anti-Bush obsessive. I'm surprised it took so long though. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Tubthump
I think that's unfair. She may not be phrasing her arguments as diplomatically as some would like, but if only more young people gave a sh*t like Rosie, the world would be a better place. To call her immature when this forum has been the platform for rabid BNP endorcers is frankly patronising. Is it really that bad to take a humanitarian stance?

No, of course a humanitarian stance is not a bad thing in itself, but when it's skewed by a textbook left wing anti-America/anti-Bush mantra it loses all credibility.

As Bill Clinton said today, this disaster should not be used as an excuse to play politics.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Then why did you suggest that very thing in the title of the thread?

Your immaturity is palpable sometimes.

Thanks mate, seeing as it's 'have a dig' time, you're equally as snobbish to most people on the forum, although I wouldn't mention it otherwise. Most of your posts tend to be put-downs, which is a shame.

Anyway, I started the thread with a question, obviously with a provocative implication - to start debate! If I'd used a less provocative title it would've been more accurate to my opinions (not that it was a reflection of them - as I said, it's an open ended question), but the thread wasn't about my opinions. And I was pretty riled after having watched the news channels when I posted it...:hihi:

Whether it's "as bad" as them or not, it tends to be part of the problem and tries to fool the rest of the English-speaking world into thinking that it's only ever a part of the solution.:loopy:

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Thanks mate, seeing as it's 'have a dig' time, you're equally as snobbish to most people on the forum, although I wouldn't mention it otherwise. Most of your posts tend to be put-downs, which is a shame.


I see, so it's OK for you to express unbridled hatred for America and all it represents with impunity, but being "snobbish" (your word) on the forum is frowned upon. Nice logic. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by mojoworking
I see, so it's OK for you to express unbridled hatred for America and all it represents with impunity, but being "snobbish" (your word) on the forum is frowned upon. Nice logic. :rolleyes:

I've already said several times what I have a problem with and what I don't. You don't have to agree with it but it's perfectly reasoned, and based on basic humanitarianism - people before profit. I am a socialist pretty much - Socialism being putting public services and social benefits before monetary gain, therefore the opposite of capitalism. And seeing as the USA is the most 'successful' example of capitalism in the world today, it's not hard to see why I would have problems with it.

Your comments that seem to insult, but not add much constructive comment otherwise, are less justified, I feel, and uncalled for.

And that's all I have to say on that matter!

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Socialism being putting public services and social benefits before monetary gain, therefore the opposite of capitalism.
See the current situation in southern states for a damn good example of how the USA has failed its poorest citizens in just this way.

Originally posted by Carmine
See the current situation in southern states for a damn good example of how the USA has failed its poorest citizens in just this way.

Yep. So you see my ranting and raving about American government and capitalism has EVERYTHING to do with the hurricane's results.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
I've already said several times what I have a problem with and what I don't. You don't have to agree with it but it's perfectly reasoned, and based on basic humanitarianism - people before profit. I am a socialist pretty much - Socialism being putting public services and social benefits before monetary gain, therefore the opposite of capitalism. And seeing as the USA is the most 'successful' example of capitalism in the world today, it's not hard to see why I would have problems with it.

Your comments that seem to insult, but not add much constructive comment otherwise, are less justified, I feel, and uncalled for.

And that's all I have to say on that matter!

I, too, am a socialist (believe it or not) and don't see eye to eye with Bush's America on many things. But everyone was caught out by the scale of this disaster (an area the size of England is affected, for god's sake) and it's simply not constructive to lapse into USA-hating default mode just for the sake of it.

Considering that in Britain a hosepipe ban is enforced after 10 days without rain, or the entire train network grinds to a halt following 2cm of snow, how well do you think WE'D cope after a New Orleans-sized disaster?

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Yep. So you see my ranting and raving about American government and capitalism has EVERYTHING to do with the hurricane's results.
Am I a wizened old cynic, or was there more to the fact that the aid started to reach Louisiana on the same bay that Georgie Porgie turned up in the afflicted states?

Surely a politician wouldn't cash in on the suffering of so many people?:confused:

Originally posted by mojoworking
Considering that in Britain a hosepipe ban is enforced after 10 days without rain, or the entire train network grinds to a halt following 2cm of snow, how well do you think WE'D cope after a New Orleans-sized disaster?
The disaster area in the southern states of the US is about the size of the UK...had the USA suffered a disaster on the same scale as the current deluge in those states would be were it visited on the UK the whole of the country would have been innundated!

Originally posted by mojoworking
I, too, am a socialist (believe it or not) and don't see eye to eye with Bush's America on many things. But everyone was caught out by the scale of this disaster (an area the size of England is affected, for god's sake) and it's simply not constructive to lapse into USA-hating default mode just for the sake of it.

Considering that in Britain a hosepipe ban is enforced after 10 days without rain, or the entire train network grinds to a halt following 2cm of snow, how well do you think WE'D cope after a New Orleans-sized disaster?

We may not, but the American army has the huge resources to, as I said, airlift many people out. There is also a huge amount more that could've been done beforehand - someone earlier mentioned the funds that were meant to go on increased defences in that area went to foreign policy. Paraphrasing (because I don't remember exactly) a New Orleans citizen on Newsnight earlier, "The government managed to get aid and aircraft out to Bangladesh within a day, why is it taking them a week in Louisiana?"

Yes, it was a shock when the warnings came in two days before the hurricane hit, but evidently not enough of a shock to start preparing. America has the funds and the resources to do more than they have done, that's evident to everyone I think. Maybe not enough to sort out the whole of the problem, but they still could have done more, and sooner, and it is at that that I am angry.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
We may not, but the American army has the huge resources to, as I said, airlift many people out. There is also a huge amount more that could've been done beforehand - someone earlier mentioned the funds that were meant to go on increased defences in that area went to foreign policy. Paraphrasing (because I don't remember exactly) a New Orleans citizen on Newsnight earlier, "The government managed to get aid and aircraft out to Bangladesh within a day, why is it taking them a week in Louisiana?"

Yes, it was a shock when the warnings came in two days before the hurricane hit, but evidently not enough of a shock to start preparing. America has the funds and the resources to do more than they have done, that's evident to everyone I think. Maybe not enough to sort out the whole of the problem, but they still could have done more, and sooner, and it is at that that I am angry.

Well my opinion of the American Government ahs gone down even more now after I read about what happened (or didnt happen I should say), its absolutely disgusting. Its almost as If they didnt think that the lives at risk were worth saving. It stinks.

Originally posted by spyro2000
Well my opinion of the American Government ahs gone down even more now after I read about what happened (or didnt happen I should say), its absolutely disgusting. Its almost as If they didnt think that the lives at risk were worth saving. It stinks.
The sight of the bodies abandoned in the street, the people weeping at the thought of dying cold and hungry whilst homeless and caked in sewage...those wealthy enough drove out of the cities affected...the poor have been left to rot.

And this in the most powerful nation in the world.

noseyrosie,

The US government is not a “for profit” organization and could be viewed as socialist in nature in that it provides social programs for the common good of the people that it serves. The problem is that while a vast majority of Americans support helping their neighbors, not everyone is willing to pay for these programs through higher taxes.

Perhaps the capitalist aspect of the government that you are referring to lies in the undue influence that corporations have over congress through big money lobbying. This aspect of the government is what the world sees as the new "Ugly American" and it really ticks off a lot of Americans including myself.

America is not just as bad as all of the dictator countries. While it is not perfect, it is a great place to live.

:thumbsup:

Carmine,

I agree with you about the current disgrace that is occurring in the south. "The USA has failed its poorest citizens in just this way." Poor planning, poor organization, and just plain old stupidity…they have not done parachute drops with food and water.

:gag:

Lefty Students,

Go out have a beer and drown your sorrows for some day you will inherit the mess and will most likely fare no better.

;)

i had the misfortune of watching newsnight yesterday , i always knew the bbc was full of leftie journos but come on can we have a balanced event of the said events instead trying to turn it into another bush bash or to play the race card again or am i best watching the news on itv:(

This clip (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/highwayriver.html) is just the tip of the iceberg of how bad things were :(

Originally posted by Chicago
noseyrosie,

The US government is not a “for profit” organization and could be viewed as socialist in nature in that it provides social programs for the common good of the people that it serves. The problem is that while a vast majority of Americans support helping their neighbors, not everyone is willing to pay for these programs through higher taxes.

Perhaps the capitalist aspect of the government that you are referring to lies in the undue influence that corporations have over congress through big money lobbying. This aspect of the government is what the world sees as the new "Ugly American" and it really ticks off a lot of Americans including myself.

America is not just as bad as all of the dictator countries. While it is not perfect, it is a great place to live.

:thumbsup:

Carmine,

I agree with you about the current disgrace that is occurring in the south. "The USA has failed its poorest citizens in just this way." Poor planning, poor organization, and just plain old stupidity…they have not done parachute drops with food and water.

:gag:

Lefty Students,

Go out have a beer and drown your sorrows for some day you will inherit the mess and will most likely fare no better.

;)

aren't a lot of the soical programs in the States funded by charitable organiastions? There seems to be very little governmental support for the needy. This support seems to diminish every year.

Bush as bad as Mugabwe ? Rabid Capitalism in America ? America controlled by a consortium of shadowy Fat Cat U.S. businessmen , probably from a secret location in the Rockies ?
I often wondered why millions of Americans were scrambling to escape to the Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea or Socialist Cuba or Zimbabwe. Now we know !
CaroleK warned us all about this weeks ago .

Originally posted by panda79
i had the misfortune of watching newsnight yesterday , i always knew the bbc was full of leftie journos but come on can we have a balanced event of the said events instead trying to turn it into another bush bash or to play the race card again or am i best watching the news on itv:(

eh? what would be a balanced coverage for you? a puff piece commending the US governments response to the disaster? as someone else has pointed out on the "hurricane katrina" thread, some sections of the media are effectively saying black people "loot", white people "find":

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=38922728&size=o

is that more balanced for you? this is a catastrophe that is likely to dwarf 9/11, yet the currency of the victims here do not seem to hold as much value to the government or, purely and simply, they would have had provisions in place when they were given warning of the hurricane over a week ago. At the very least, relief should have been waiting to sweep into the city the moment Katrina passed over. the BBC are drawing the only conclusions that can possibly explain the compassionless, incompetent, grossly negligent reaction of Bush's administration.

"some sections of the media are effectively saying black people "loot", white people "find":"

You're basing that on one picture?

Originally posted by Tubthump
eh? what would be a balanced coverage for you? a puff piece commending the US governments response to the disaster? as someone else has pointed out on the "hurricane katrina" thread, some sections of the media are effectively saying black people "loot", white people "find":

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=38922728&size=o

is that more balanced for you? this is a catastrophe that is likely to dwarf 9/11, yet the currency of the victims here do not seem to hold as much value to the government or, purely and simply, they would have had provisions in place when they were given warning of the hurricane over a week ago. At the very least, relief should have been waiting to sweep into the city the moment Katrina passed over. the BBC are drawing the only conclusions that can possibly explain the compassionless, incompetent, grossly negligent reaction of Bush's administration.

but with 9/11 America was undrer attack by the axis of evil. If someone killed 10 people with a bomb in the States there would be more done by the U government than this.

It's called skewed pride.

Originally posted by JoeP
Now, what would certain people on this Forum be saying if we made these sorts of generalisations about other social, political or racial groups?

I am sickened by bigotry of any sort. When that's combined with hypocrisy I just give up in disgust.

Joe

Very well said Joe, as always. :thumbsup:

It seems ok to make sweeping generalisations *against* Americans, but if it was targetted against other groups, lefty students like Noseyrosie would be the first to complain.

Originally posted by panda79
i had the misfortune of watching newsnight yesterday , i always knew the bbc was full of leftie journos but come on can we have a balanced event of the said events instead trying to turn it into another bush bash or to play the race card again or am i best watching the news on itv:(

What would be a 'balanced' view? Bush himself has admitted the response has been inadequate. What the hell are you talking about? :loopy:

One topic no-one seems to have covered in any detail is :--

What is the responsibility , as regards natural disasters in the U.S. , of State authorities , vis-a vis Federal authorities ?
I.E. Did President Bush assume that the State authorities would be able to tackle the immediate aftermath and is this what made him delay his response.
In any case , it seems to me , that most governments are often taken by surprise , as re----disaters , natural or otherwise.
The Labour government of 1966 were quite aware that there could be dangers from Slag Heaps. They could have spent some money either making them completely harmless or having them inspected more often. As it was the one in Aberfan , "collapsed " , ran into a school and smothered loads of Primary school children.
It's so easy to be wise after the event and I've never noticed that non-Capitalist countries are any wiser or more humanitarian than Capitalist ones . Eastern Europe ? Russia ? China ? N. Korea. ? Cuba ? If it wasn't so tragic , it would be a joke.
If there is one country that has been generous with its money and its lives , in the aid of European Wars , the Japanese aggression and natural disasters , it has been America.
America has many faults but lack of generosity is not one of them.

Originally posted by Greenback
What would be a 'balanced' view? Bush himself has admitted the response has been inadequate. What the hell are you talking about? :loopy:

im talking about balanced journilisim

There is some serious confusion about when people say they hate a particular country.

No one hates the people of the country, God knows we hardly know our own neighbours, never mind people living in far flung corners of the Earth.

What we do hate are Govt's, their lies and the crimes they perpertrate.

Recently there was the anniversary of the dropping of 'A' bombs in Japan.

How many people here think that wasn't one of the biggest crimes in recent history ?

To save the lives of 200,000 soldiers by deliberately targeting 200,000 civilians is a crime and it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure it out.

At the end of the day ALL Empires that we admire (through our education/media) are EVIL.

The Romans were Evil, The British Empire was Evil, the Soviet Empire was Evil and now the US Empire is Evil.

The truth is that as citizens of democracies, we are just as culpable in the crimes our Govt's commit.

How many people actually speak out against our Govts ?

Recent history, we aided and abetted the US in placing sanctions on Iraqi civilians, killing nearly a MILLION children in 10 years!

Yes we can all sit back and carry on our lives watching Eastenders etc, but as the saying goes: what goes around comes around.

Perhaps we will escape the comeuppance, but our children or their children will pay the price.

Foreign policy is the instrument through which our Govt's commit heinous crimes, and surprise surprise do we ever question or even have an opportunity to determine what our nation's foreign policy is ?

Its like the sacred cow that we just cant go near.

What really confuses me is that we believe violence (or aiding can obtain us the raw materials we require (for instance oil).

We have plonked abunch of European Zionists in Palestine, and then wonder why the Arabs dont like it ?

If the Afro Carabians who migrated here 50 years ago suddenly through the support of France declared Yorkshire to be their 'new' state, what would the rest of us in Yorkshire make of it ?

If they then pushed us out of our homes to make space for more Afro Carabians to move in and make settlements, what would you do ?

Its funny how after the assasination of JFK, Israel all of a sudden got everything in terms of support it wanted from the US (aid/military hardware etc), which continues to this day!

If Europe had the brains, it would place sanctions on Israel and get oil on the cheap ! but alas our politicians are bribed by Zionist's through lobbying and kickbacks, and end up acting in our worse interests....

I was going to reply to those two posts by wolfman , but your use of the term "zionist" blew your credibility entirely so therefore i'm not going to bother.

Originally posted by Fareast
One topic no-one seems to have covered in any detail is :--

What is the responsibility , as regards natural disasters in the U.S. , of State authorities , vis-a vis Federal authorities ?
I.E. Did President Bush assume that the State authorities would be able to tackle the immediate aftermath and is this what made him delay his response.
.

I did actually raise the federal issue. although I think it was on another thread. Federal systems of government provide numerous opportunities for buck passing of various kinds. The boundaries of responsibility with regard to the development and maintenance of infrastructures are often fuzzy and unclear, particularly when it comes to the distribution of financial burdens and responsibilities. The state level can always blame the federal level and vice versa.

Originally posted by skny
I was going to reply to those two posts by wolfman , but your use of the term "zionist" blew your credibility entirely so therefore i'm not going to bother.

What about the term "zionist" blows his credibility? His entire post was about the Zionist movement and the State of Israel which was directly born out of it.

Becasue when people start talking about "zionists" I find they quite quickly move onto "illuminati" et al. That's caroleK territory.

"alas our politicians are bribed by Zionist's through lobbying and kickback" What a load of utter twaddle.

I think the erosion of civil rights produced by sept 11th and the last 2 administrations have taken the US towards a more dictatorial path with Americans happy to give up freedoms and rights in the name of safety and defence.

Americans still have lot and lots of freedoms not even thought of in countries like Zimbabwe.

Originally posted by skny
Becasue when people start talking about "zionists" I find they quite quickly move onto "illuminati" et al. That's caroleK territory.

"alas our politicians are bribed by Zionist's through lobbying and kickback" What a load of utter twaddle.

I think zionist is often used as a derogatory term for the pro-israeli lobby in US government.

It's no lie to say there is a very strong, multi-armed pro-israeli lobbying industry working in Washington and awash with funding. Which if you strip out the invective is what wolfman said.

Zionist is a highly loaded term, firing off completely different meanings in people's heads.

Pro-Israeli is not the same thing, but any dictionary defined zionist is likely to be a supporter of the state of Israel hence pro-israeli, rather than, say, Palestine.

The OP question, however, is facile beyond belief.

Originally posted by wolfman
There is some serious confusion about when people say they hate a particular country.

No one hates the people of the country, God knows we hardly know our own neighbours, never mind people living in far flung corners of the Earth.

What we do hate are Govt's, their lies and the crimes they perpertrate.

Recently there was the anniversary of the dropping of 'A' bombs in Japan.

How many people here think that wasn't one of the biggest crimes in recent history ?

To save the lives of 200,000 soldiers by deliberately targeting 200,000 civilians is a crime and it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure it out.

A

I dont think the number were equal though. Fewer people died in the a-bombs than would have died if america had started a land invasion.

"I think zionist is often used as a derogatory term for the pro-israeli lobby in US government."

Youre right of course. The term zionist is though def favoured by the conspiracy set and pops up a lot in barmy internet gibberings. It always sets off warning signals when i hear/see someone use the term.

Re: some other question about a-bomb usage...Isnt it weird that people pull this one out of the bag when some yank-bashing's on the agenda? It would be considered the height of insensitivity to bash a german for the death camps at sobribor etc but apparently america's "war crimes" are fair game. Strange that. And the fire bombing of tokyo killed more civilians that hiroshima, but thats not quite as conveniently iconic.

Robbie, where isall this perfect knowledge of the US coming from with you. If it is so fine why aren't you coming to help change us?
You accuse me of being the typical Yank. well I'm a Sheffielder just like you, but I served my country with 18 years in the Royal Navy, in Suez, Korea, and Malaya. I would love to have had you on my flight deck. As a CPO I would have given you the education of your life.
I chose to become an American because of skills that were needed here, which is a compliment to both the education in GB and the training of the world's most professional armed service. Nelson's navy, Drake's navy. A navy that the USN reveres.
I have never regretted my move, and I am ashamed of people who can spout such hatred to a country who sent its sons into harm's way by the hundred thousands to help a country that they once had to fight for independence.
I am tired of the political garbage that is going on in this forum.I have already admitted that this nation's government has erred badly, although every American I know is actively and personally doing all they can to help.
Nothing you're saying is helping one iota. Please shut up!

Buck, I'm a Sheffielder born and bred but now living in Canada. I'm almost 66 years old and thank God that the U.S. got involved on our side in the second world war. As for a previous post that the dropping of the A-bomb was a crime against humanity then I say that these people should get their head out of the sand. I was just reading an article where the Germans and Japanese were exchanging technology (delivered by submarine) The Japanese were receiving jet engines and plans for developing an A-bomb from the Germans. Do these people honestly think that the Germans or the Japanese wouldn't have used it on the allies if they had got there first ? Get real. The Japanese were preparing to slaughter all their prisoners (military and civilian) if the home islands had been invaded. Thank God that President Truman had the guts to do what he did. Loss of civilian life was a tragedy but these people were the enemy and if the shoe had been on the other foot we would have been on the receiving end. Would this have not been a crime against humanity? These revisionists p**s me off.

Originally posted by chuffinel
Buck, I'm a Sheffielder born and bred but now living in Canada. I'm almost 66 years old and thank God that the U.S. got involved on our side in the second world war. As for a previous post that the dropping of the A-bomb was a crime against humanity then I say that these people should get their head out of the sand. I was just reading an article where the Germans and Japanese were exchanging technology (delivered by submarine) The Japanese were receiving jet engines and plans for developing an A-bomb from the Germans. Do these people honestly think that the Germans or the Japanese wouldn't have used it on the allies if they had got there first ? Get real. The Japanese were preparing to slaughter all their prisoners (military and civilian) if the home islands had been invaded. Thank God that President Truman had the guts to do what he did. Loss of civilian life was a tragedy but these people were the enemy and if the shoe had been on the other foot we would have been on the receiving end. Would this have not been a crime against humanity? These revisionists p**s me off.

Well said. As we discussed a few weeks ago on the anniversary of the dropping of the bombs, it was Japan who declared war on the USA, not the other way round.

Japan had already killed hundreds of thousands (if not millions) in the region and was committing appalling war crimes against allied troops and civilians from surrounding countries. If not for the bombs, the figure would have been a lot higher.

Japan had to be stopped by whatever means. It's a pity that those who speak out so strongly for the victims of the two A-bombs don't also acknowledge the countless men, women and children who were tortured, raped and worked to death by the Japanese.

Chuffinel, somebody on this forum said we slaughtered 200,000 of theirs to save 200,000 of ours. People who say this have no concept of what it must have been like to have to fight the Japanese in their homeland. 200,000!!! It would have been millions of American, British, and Australians. Did people today never hear of Kamaikaze?
Bear one thing in mind, the japanese attacked Pearl Harbor without provocation, on a Sunfday morning when the fleet was stood down' That was the action of a military coward, and they reaped the whirlwind for it.
By the same token, we were condemned for the death rates in Hamburg and Dresden in that war. Did nobody remember Coventry, London, and yes, Sheffield. Sow a wind, reap a whirlwind.
If a country doesn't want to like us,fine, but if you mess with us and kill our citizens watch out!!

Originally posted by panda79
im talking about balanced journilisim

What would have provided a balance? Someone saying Bush had done a really good job, despite the fact Bush himself has admitted failure? I still don't see what your point is. The New Orleans failure is patently obvious, and it's the duty of any news organisation to report this.

Mojoworking ,

Well said. Just a brief comment as we are discussing this on another thread [General Chat---China Remembers ].
There were an estimated 35,000,000 people killed in China by the Japanese between 1931-1945 and 300,000 in the city of Nanking alone. I've never seen these figures seriously challenged.
I don't think the Chinese shed many tears when the A-bombs forced Japan to surrender.

To Buck and the rest,please ignore the rantings of the stupid student lefties on here they dont have a bloody clue.
I know we owe the americans thanks for standing up for democracy and what is right,the japs HAD to be stopped by any means at our disposal,as for the germans we also had to make sure we defeated them also,thank god we won in the end.

Originally posted by Greenback
What would have provided a balance? Someone saying Bush had done a really good job, despite the fact Bush himself has admitted failure? I still don't see what your point is. The New Orleans failure is patently obvious, and it's the duty of any news organisation to report this.

i think you better watch newsnight one day next week to see what im on about the news is meant to be reported in a balanced way ,and yes i no bad things are going off there but to turn a whole report into america bashing and suggesting that the real reason that help has been slow coming is because most of new orleans is black is treading very dangrous ground indeed

It is easy to condem someone or country for it's failings whilst living in a country that has more than it's fair share of failings .
Get things into perspective! THe affected area in the States is larger than the UK.
To get aid to everyone in this size of area is a mammoth task and I am sure that if ever the UK had a disaster half as big, they wouldn't be able to cope.

What gets me is that the place is underwater yet they have idiots looting TV's etc from the shops....Why? there is no electricity and the transmitters are in -operable!
Bearing in mind that they knew about the hurricane a week before it hit I would think that these people that are affected, brought this whole situation on themselves.

If anyone in this forum feels that the US government is not helping these people enough may I suggest that they put their hands in their pockets and send some money over there to help them out.
I don't think that would happen though as most of the people in this forum that have a lot of negative things to say about anyone or anything are normally the ones that are claiming benefit or are freeloading students that have not paid into the system.

Originally posted by royjames
To Buck and the rest,please ignore the rantings of the stupid student lefties on here they dont have a bloody clue.
I know we owe the americans thanks for standing up for democracy and what is right,the japs HAD to be stopped by any means at our disposal,as for the germans we also had to make sure we defeated them also,thank god we won in the end. Sorry to burst your bubble but we didn't realy win the war against Germany, The Russians did and they took over half of eastern Europe ......
Currently the Germans own more of the UK and have more major companies here than we do.

Off Subject I know but the very country that we went to war over ended up in Russian hands.

So! Who won the war?

Originally posted by Delboy3
Bearing in mind that they knew about the hurricane a week before it hit I would think that these people that are affected, brought this whole situation on themselves.

At least we can comfort ourselves in the knowledge that if you're ever in trouble and need help - we won't need to help you - as you'll have brought it upon yourself and won't ask or want it., as it'll be all your own fault for being old, sick, poor or simple or not having a car.

That's a relief.

*or in gaol!

Originally posted by royjames
To Buck and the rest,please ignore the rantings of the stupid student lefties on here they dont have a bloody clue.
I know we owe the americans thanks for standing up for democracy and what is right,the japs HAD to be stopped by any means at our disposal,as for the germans we also had to make sure we defeated them also,thank god we won in the end.

yes Buck ignore the lefty unwashed students and go with the fascist neo-NAZIs instead.

Compare the US Governments response to this and the Hurricaines in Florida.

Floirda is :

A: Affluent

B. Large white population

c. Run by Shrub's Brother

the response was pretty swift and generous.

Now take the Big Easy. It is poor with a large non-ethnic population.

this is what upsets we. They knew this was coming and did almost nothing.

and about the a-bomb.

I did post a load of evidence and links in the thread about 60 years since the a-bomb and it was just ignored. Basically many highly placed people in the US forces believed it would have been possible to win the war fairly quickly wihtout the use of the a-bomb.

As always it was roundly ignored as it seems in order to be right with the forum's "intellegencie" you have to be right wing.

Apparently students aren't allowed to comment as they are much more ignorant than other posters.

And yes the Bombing of Tokyo was almost has horrific as dropping the A-Bomb but I'd argue that at least with conventional bombing civilians at least a chance to survive.

And yes, I am anti-American. I have seen world history over the last 50 years and that is why. It seems that any atrocities commited by the US are ok and understandable whilst any committd by China, Germany, Russia, Japan etc are unforgiveable acts of brutality.

I see the polarisation between the wealthy and the poor ever increase and it horrifies me. It is becoming the same here. In fact we (as a society) tend to take our lead from the States which can only be a bad thing in my opinion.

why is this. We too have a stinking record in the former colonies. I'll admit that what we did over there was often wrong and horrid.

oh and btw I am:

a: not a student.

b: pay my taxes

c: work for the Home Office

Originally posted by rubydazzler
At least we can comfort ourselves in the knowledge that if you're ever in trouble and need help - we won't need to help you - as you'll have brought it upon yourself and won't ask or want it., as it'll be all your own fault for being old, sick, poor or simple or not having a car.

That's a relief.

*or in gaol!
Thats what gets me about the brits.......they all need help as they can't seem to do anything for themselves.

People are poor because they can't get off their rear ends and do something with their lives.

BTW. I wouldnt ask anyone for any help as I have strived to do things on my own and dont accept handouts like the rest of ya's

Originally posted by panda79
i think you better watch newsnight one day next week to see what im on about the news is meant to be reported in a balanced way ,and yes i no bad things are going off there but to turn a whole report into america bashing and suggesting that the real reason that help has been slow coming is because most of new orleans is black is treading very dangrous ground indeed

It's not really dangerous ground. It's a pretty obvious point that if the majority of people affected were of a different demographic, the response would have been much quicker.

Originally posted by Delboy3
Thats what gets me about the brits.......they all need help as they can't seem to do anything for themselves.

People are poor because they can't get off their rear ends and do something with their lives.

BTW. I wouldnt ask anyone for any help as I have strived to do things on my own and dont accept handouts like the rest of ya's

I agree that to a degree we as a nation are too used to charity and benefits and less inclined to get off our backsides and do it for ourselves.

However, would you not agree that sometimes people do need help to get there life back in order? They need help to enable them to get of their backsides and do something about it.

Instead of donations, aid and benefits what about an interest free loan?

Originally posted by robbie
And yes, I am anti-American. I have seen world history over the last 50 years and that is why. It seems that any atrocities commited by the US are ok and understandable whilst any committd by China, Germany, Russia, Japan etc are unforgiveable acts of brutality.



Is that also why you constantly excuse and justify atrocities and terrorist acts by Muslims against the USA and other western countries?

Originally posted by mojoworking
Is that also why you constantly excuse and justify atrocities and terrorist acts by Muslims against the USA and other western countries?

I have never justified any terrorist acts against the US by any nation :loopy:

I can see why they happen but it NEVER makes them right.

Er..

"I have seen world history over the last 50 years and that is why. It seems that any atrocities commited by the US are ok and understandable whilst any committd by China, Germany, Russia, Japan etc are unforgiveable acts of brutality."

With the exception of the russians in chechnya, I dont think those countries have been indulging in war atrocities in the last 50 years, or am I missing something?

Originally posted by robbie
I agree that to a degree we as a nation are too used to charity and benefits and less inclined to get off our backsides and do it for ourselves.

However, would you not agree that sometimes people do need help to get there life back in order? They need help to enable them to get of their backsides and do something about it.

Instead of donations, aid and benefits what about an interest free loan?
It is ok to help people some of the time but in the UK they get it all the time and they never seem to bother getting themselves out of the rut.
The same goes for any nation.....Look at Africa....Money and aid has been given for long before I was born and yet they still hav'nt a clue and don't do anything to better their lives...they just keep on expecting the rest of the world to give them handouts.

I have seen so called self help schemes where wells are dug to give them clean water and seeds given for them to grow their own food etc' and every year there are appeals for the same communities because they never bothered to try and do something and in all honesty, they have become lazy.

The same with the long term benefit scroungers here.....lazy good for nothings that live off others then shout the odds on what they should be entitled to in life at someone elses expence and hard work.

I think you are wrong about Africa. The reason why nothing seems to get done 9and I agree it is the same old same old appeal every year) if more to do with incompetent aid agencies, Corrupt governments, the military and dubious politicians than laziness

Originally posted by skny
Er..

"I have seen world history over the last 50 years and that is why. It seems that any atrocities commited by the US are ok and understandable whilst any committd by China, Germany, Russia, Japan etc are unforgiveable acts of brutality."

With the exception of the russians in chechnya, I dont think those countries have been indulging in war atrocities in the last 50 years, or am I missing something?

No, but the Chinese policy of internal repression and the invasion of Tibet is not a hallmark of an enlightened or benign government either.

Originally posted by skny
Er..

"I have seen world history over the last 50 years and that is why. It seems that any atrocities commited by the US are ok and understandable whilst any committd by China, Germany, Russia, Japan etc are unforgiveable acts of brutality."

With the exception of the russians in chechnya, I dont think those countries have been indulging in war atrocities in the last 50 years, or am I missing something?

that could well be part of my point. mention Japan and people on here will instantly hark back to the 2nd wolrd war. but Vietnam, the Korean War seem to be overlooked when you talk about the US.

Originally posted by robbie
I think you are wrong about Africa. The reason why nothing seems to get done 9and I agree it is the same old same old appeal every year) if more to do with incompetent aid agencies, Corrupt governments, the military and dubious politicians than laziness I have lived in Africa and just look at Zimbabwe to see why African countries are broke.
They killed the farmers, destroyed the crops and now plead that they have no food.

The way that they work is as follows.
If they took over an egg farm, they would kill all the chickens and sell them......not thinking about what they do when the chickens have all gone.

Mark my words...South Africa will go the same way within the next 10 years as they have seen Mugabe get away with it and still get handouts.
In fact, it has already started where farmers are being killed and their land taken in the North part of S.A.

Originally posted by panda79
can we have a balanced event of the said events instead trying to turn it into another bush bash

Personally if I were you I’d be asking why the US media has taken so long to question Bush’s role and why they have taken steps to censor those criticising his failures.

How do you think the US media would have reacted in the US if after 9/11 bush had spent the next day on a fundraising tour for the Republican party or if Condelezza Rice spent the next day shopping for shoes whilst thousands of Americans perished.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
I know a lot of us have huge problems with the American government.


Interesting to see how countries on the axis of evil have reacted to this;
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.world.aid/index.html

CUBA: Cuban President Fidel Castro offered to fly 1,100 doctors to Houston with 26 tonnes of medicine to treat disaster victims.

VENEZUELA: President Hugo Chavez, a vocal critic of the United States, offered to send cheap fuel, humanitarian aid and relief workers to the disaster area

"that could well be part of my point. mention Japan and people on here will instantly hark back to the 2nd wolrd war. but Vietnam, the Korean War seem to be overlooked when you talk about the US."

You'll notice the *only reason* people will refer to wartime japan is when someone dredges up -americas- warcrimes ie the a-bomb. I dont know why you seem to suggest america gets some kind of free ride from the international media, from My lai to Abu graibh, americas misdemenours are well represented, and if anything, amplified.



"No, but the Chinese policy of internal repression and the invasion of Tibet is not a hallmark of an enlightened or benign government either."

I agree, but these acts do not seem to attract the widespread vilification that robbie is suggesting the US is immune to.

I was meaning more on here than the media. It is the in thing to slate America in the Euroepan press I know.

Originally posted by buck
Chuffinel, somebody on this forum said we slaughtered 200,000 of theirs to save 200,000 of ours. People who say this have no concept of what it must have been like to have to fight the Japanese in their homeland. 200,000!!! It would have been millions of American, British, and Australians. Did people today never hear of Kamaikaze?
Bear one thing in mind, the japanese attacked Pearl Harbor without provocation, on a Sunfday morning when the fleet was stood down' That was the action of a military coward, and they reaped the whirlwind for it.


I think the americans cutting off the oil supplies to Japan counts as severe provacation though in most countries books. So I dont understand why they were suprised. Seems farily obvious this is how a warmongering brutal empire like the then current japanese leaders would react!

I think I know a little bit about Korea, Robbie, I served aboard HMS THeseus in Korean waters about the time you were getting born. I served my country honorably for 18 years, and do not hate it like you hate my adopted one.
Of course it's not perfect, but if you're seeking perfection in Britain you might remember Bloody Sunday, the Guilford 4, and much more recently a certain young Brazilian.
Your hatred can't be penetrated, so there's no use going on about it.
To you and all those on this forum who spew hatred in your jealousy or whatever, enjoy your lives. I'm sorry I live a better one than you. I earned it.
To the many more people who expressed support for us,, I thank you. Come visit us, you're more than welcome.

Originally posted by buck
I think I know a little bit about Korea, Robbie, I served aboard HMS THeseus in Korean waters about the time you were getting born. I served my country honorably for 18 years, and do not hate it like you hate my adopted one.
Of course it's not perfect, but if you're seeking perfection in Britain you might remember Bloody Sunday, the Guilford 4, and much more recently a certain young Brazilian.
Your hatred can't be penetrated, so there's no use going on about it.
To you and all those on this forum who spew hatred in your jealousy or whatever, enjoy your lives. I'm sorry I live a better one than you. I earned it.
To the many more people who expressed support for us,, I thank you. Come visit us, you're more than welcome.
Surely the perpetrators of Bloody Sunday & the Guildford 4 (the IRA) were funded by USA collections in NY bars & the like?

The IRA perpetrated Bloody Sunday?

That's news to me also.

I really think nosey could have come up with a slightly better formed question too.

who are "all of the dictator countries"?

"just as bad" - on a scale of 1 - 10 badness points?

There's a discussion to be had here, but this isn't it.

America is just used to having everything they want.

Isn't that sad?

Originally posted by Alicia
America is just used to having everything they want.

Isn't that sad?

More details please

Seems to me that some people do not realise that America is and has been Britains best ally through war and the cold war that followed.

I would rather have American values than have the values forced on us by Europe.

As far as dictators go, we have our own in the guise of Tony blair with his do as I say not as I do attitude.

As to who was funding the IRA , I would say that the UK people funded so called freedom fighters (terrorists) in Africa but then I suppose that this is ok just so long as the killings/bombings are not close to home.
One mans Terrorist is anothers Freedom Fighter.

It is so easy to condem other countries and their leaders whilst having information supplied soley from the media.
Lets face it, the media suck any story dry and make the stories a little more than they realy are!

Youngsters that have a lot to say yet have probably never travelled or lived a life should look around at their own country's failings first, before looking to bash others.

America always gets what it wants??

So do other countries if they can afford to pay for it!

Originally posted by skny
Er..

"I have seen world history over the last 50 years and that is why. It seems that any atrocities commited by the US are ok and understandable whilst any committd by China, Germany, Russia, Japan etc are unforgiveable acts of brutality."

With the exception of the russians in chechnya, I dont think those countries have been indulging in war atrocities in the last 50 years, or am I missing something?

i think youu must have been looking at page 3 when the real news was being printed.

Originally posted by robbie
that could well be part of my point. mention Japan and people on here will instantly hark back to the 2nd wolrd war. but Vietnam, the Korean War seem to be overlooked when you talk about the US.

what is your relevance with korea & vietnam, if the us had overrun the countries would they ever get mentioned.
there were strategic reasons for military action in both of these countries.you were not a decisiion maker in these matters so your overview is that purely of outsider with hindsight.

american policy may not suit everyone but neither does the policies of Phol Pt, Idi Amin, Chouchesao(or whatever it is) & numerous other dictators from haiti & africa.
american/british interaction now make it possible for you to visit these places on holiday.

"i think youu must have been looking at page 3 when the real news was being printed."

Really....well perhaps you could enlighten us all about german/japanese war atrocities committed DURING THE PAST 50 YEARS ie *AFTER* WW2

Alternatively, read the preceding posts properly.

Originally posted by skny
"i think youu must have been looking at page 3 when the real news was being printed."

Really....well perhaps you could enlighten us all about german/japanese war atrocities committed DURING THE PAST 50 YEARS ie *AFTER* WW2

Alternatively, read the preceding posts properly.

u can't have war atrocities without a war, unfortunately after being the major instigators in two unsuccessful wars they were not permitted by the rest of the world to raise weapons against another nation.
japan have not really tried to impose their wishes on any one apart from neighbouring islands who the west care little about.
the germans were too busy fighting amongst themselves and interrogating innocent people,commiting acts of espionage and infringing peoples civil liberties.

Originally posted by skny
"i think youu must have been looking at page 3 when the real news was being printed."

Really....well perhaps you could enlighten us all about german/japanese war atrocities committed DURING THE PAST 50 YEARS ie *AFTER* WW2

Alternatively, read the preceding posts properly.

obviously u only selected germany & japan from your list 'cos u couldn't think of any.
chinese & russian acts have mostly been religious particularly since the fall of communism.
don't forget the west including the uSA freed the people from communist dictators in many eastern countries but people only want to speculate on the headline stuff.

Just for the record , Korea was nothing to do with American aggression . It was a United Nations decision to defend South Korea when the North Koreans invaded.
By one of those quirks of fate the Soviet Union were not present at the security council decision and could not use its veto , as it probably would have done , to help a fellow -communist state.
Obviously , most of the , "work" , fell onto the U.S. armed forces , for obvious reasons , but we , the U.K. took part in large numbers too and hundreds [thousands ?] of our men were killed or taken prisoner.No doubt someone else can tell us more details.
The case in Vietnam was curious , too. The Americans were technically not at war at all . They were there by the request of the S.Vietnamese Gov. as advisors. In practice , the Americans simply replaced the French who had been fighting the communist rebels for years .
Personally , I think that the main criticism that can be levelled against America , since 1945 , is the Vietnam war . Having said that , has any powerful nation , ever in History , NOT been guilty of even worse mistakes or misjudgements ?
There seems to be an infantile , playground , sort of hysterical hatred of America around and WHATEVER America does seems to trigger off obscene language and unfounded condemnation.
Maybe a lot of people think David is ALWAYS right and Goliath is ALWAYS wrong -----aint necessarily so !!

Originally posted by Fareast
Just for the record , Korea was nothing to do with American aggression . It was a United Nations decision to defend South Korea when the North Koreans invaded.
By one of those quirks of fate the Soviet Union were not present at the security council decision and could not use its veto , as it probably would have done , to help a fellow -communist state.
Obviously , most of the , "work" , fell onto the U.S. armed forces , for obvious reasons , but we , the U.K. took part in large numbers too and hundreds [thousands ?] of our men were killed or taken prisoner.No doubt someone else can tell us more details.
The case in Vietnam was curious , too. The Americans were technically not at war at all . They were there by the request of the S.Vietnamese Gov. as advisors. In practice , the Americans simply replaced the French who had been fighting the communist rebels for years .
Personally , I think that the main criticism that can be levelled against America , since 1945 , is the Vietnam war . Having said that , has any powerful nation , ever in History , NOT been guilty of even worse mistakes or misjudgements ?
There seems to be an infantile , playground , sort of hysterical hatred of America around and WHATEVER America does seems to trigger off obscene language and unfounded condemnation.
Maybe a lot of people think David is ALWAYS right and Goliath is ALWAYS wrong -----aint necessarily so !!


at last another forummer who actually reads about what actually happened.

Thank you Don Kiddick for making me laugh. It was much better than any of those puny attempts at humour of yours.
The IRA also thanks you.
As someone has stated, the Korean war was a police action voted for by the United Nations. While America provided the largest contingent of troops, ships, and planes, Britain had a significant part in it. The Gloucester Regiment earned the title " the Glorious Glosters " for sacrifices they made in Korea.
It was a nasty vicious war in what was one of the coldest places on earth to fight a war in Winter. Few of us who were there talk about it much except when it comes up in a discussion like the forum. It seems the study of history is not a strong suit among some forummers. That's a shame for not to know history is to repeat it.

Buck ,

You're quite right about the lack of historical perspective amongst a lot of S.F. posters . To read some of them , you would imagine the world began in about 1990 a.d.
I'm not sure , but maybe it was Marx who said ,
" the first time round , History is tragedy , the second time round , it is Comedy ".
Certainly it was Lenin , who spoke about the , "Infantile Left ". :-----those who believe in , "equality " in simplistic terms and believe that Society can be made perfect by passing a few laws and appealing to humanity's better nature .
The more a person understands the past , the more likely it is they'll make sense of the present and the future .
Probably the lack of good teaching of History in our schools , since the '70's is responsible for the lack of a broad perspective : certainly , something has gone amiss.

No its not true that America is just as bad as all of the dictator countries !

America makes them all look like novices !

If you take the example of the Drug Dealers and the Drug Suppliers, the US is the Drug Supplier and therefore is actually worse than the small fish !

Wolfman ,


Wow , right on , there !
And there we all were thinking that America was the biggest consumer of drugs and other places , like Columbia , Thailand , Turkey and Afghanistan were supplying them !
You've really opened our eyes to the truth at last .

"at last another forummer who actually reads about what actually happened." What a condecending comment. If you had bothered to read the preceding part of the thread you'll find I've actually been defending the US and its record in comparison to other nations, and I believe you have lazily assumed I'm one of the liberal social studies students who seem to think america is some kind of deranged empire-building semi-fascist superstate.

"obviously u only selected germany & japan from your list 'cos u couldn't think of any." I dont even know what this sentence means. Is english actually your native language? If your grasp of political history is as vague as your grasp of spelling and grammar than I don't feel obliged to hold your sophisticated political historical analysis particularly highly.

Cheap shot...but youre worth it.

Originally posted by mojoworking
More details please


Well we get whatever we want. We want oil, we'll get it. We want to be the highest, we'll get it. We want good stuff for cheaper value, we'll get it. Anything I want is at my fingertips, all I have to do is go down to the store and get it for 95 cents.

We are the "meat eaters" of society today. We fill ourselves up on the good things in life, while other people barely have enough for at least some rice. It's sad.

The United States is the cause of 1/3 of the garbage in the world. We're like bears, we come, eat everything in sight while trashing the camp site.

I like living here though.

Of course we get what we want, Alicia. Over 250 million of us with money in our pockets makes us the place everybody making anything wants to sell their stuff to.
Our economy depends on our ability to spend without having the government tax the hell out of us.
If other countries could get away with our prices, do you think they would be any different?
Most relatives and friends in Britain who visit me from time to time not only enjoy a fantastic country to vacation in, but go mad on the price of Levis, the reasonably priced and excellent restaurants, even the cheap pints.
I'm sure there are some Americans who don't like what Walmart is doing to downtown, especially downtown retailers, but try finding a parking spot at Walmart close to the doors.

Originally posted by skny
"at last another forummer who actually reads about what actually happened." What a condecending comment. If you had bothered to read the preceding part of the thread you'll find I've actually been defending the US and its record in comparison to other nations, and I believe you have lazily assumed I'm one of the liberal social studies students who seem to think america is some kind of deranged empire-building semi-fascist superstate.

"obviously u only selected germany & japan from your list 'cos u couldn't think of any." I dont even know what this sentence means. Is english actually your native language? If your grasp of political history is as vague as your grasp of spelling and grammar than I don't feel obliged to hold your sophisticated political historical analysis particularly highly.

Cheap shot...but youre worth it.

in your post you selected 4 countries,amongst them were wellknown dictatorships, the only 2 countries you asked for opinion on were the 2 internationally forbidden to commit war atrocities. i therefore assumed that because your limited historical knowledge could not bring to mind any supporting evidence you assumed we were all of the same mentality as yourself.
further to my grammar i presented my post in a format that i imagined a person of your education & age would understand.

Nope, the person I was RESPONDING TO (robbie) suggested 4 countries that (apparently) have been coming in for a lot of stick over the *past 50 years*, while allegedly the USA has not been getting any. My point was that the US has probably been getting a lot more media vilification re korea, vietnam, gulf 1 + 2 etc and therefore his point was invalid.

Easy eh?

Originally posted by buck
I think I know a little bit about Korea, Robbie, I served aboard HMS THeseus in Korean waters about the time you were getting born. I served my country honorably for 18 years, and do not hate it like you hate my adopted one.
Of course it's not perfect, but if you're seeking perfection in Britain you might remember Bloody Sunday, the Guilford 4, and much more recently a certain young Brazilian.
Your hatred can't be penetrated, so there's no use going on about it.
To you and all those on this forum who spew hatred in your jealousy or whatever, enjoy your lives. I'm sorry I live a better one than you. I earned it.
To the many more people who expressed support for us,, I thank you. Come visit us, you're more than welcome.

whatr planet are you on?

you have told us at least twice that you served the UK for 18 years. so what? Would you like to thank my family for paying your wages? It was a job.

The forces are full of undereducated people who get paid a fair amount of wages for being potentially put in life threatening positions. were you pressganged into your job? no thopught not. I don't see why you keep bringing this up.

whilst we are on the subject I work for my country now. you seem to have abandoned yours for more money in another country. it is nice to know where your loyalties lie isn't it?

since you can't stop from having a go at me maybe you would like to advise us non-patriots why you felt the need to leave the uk and become an American citizen (And I assume that you are as you keep referring to the US as us)?

I only bring this up as you keep bringing up serving your country for 18 years.

Originally posted by robbie
whatr planet are you on?

you have told us at least twice that you served the UK for 18 years. so what? Would you like to thank my family for paying your wages? It was a job.

The forces are full of undereducated people who get paid a fair amount of wages for being potentially put in life threatening positions. were you pressganged into your job? no thopught not. I don't see why you keep bringing this up.

whilst we are on the subject I work for my country now. you seem to have abandoned yours for more money in another country. it is nice to know where your loyalties lie isn't it?



Robbie,

You are some work of art! At age 28 you know the universe that surrounds you and that's about all. How can you compare your job pushing a pencil some drab office to the work that veterans have done? Your belittlement of veterans is truly appalling. My grandfather served in the British Army in WWII and his father served during WWI. Without them your dumb ass would be sprechen deutsch. Grow up slugger!

Originally posted by Chicago
Robbie,

You are some work of art! At age 28 you know the universe that surrounds you and that's about all. How can you compare your job pushing a pencil some drab office to the work that veterans have done? Your belittlement of veterans is truly appalling. My grandfather served in the British Army in WWII and his father served during WWI. Without them your dumb ass would be sprechen deutsch. Grow up slugger!

Fair dos, but we don't have conscription or national service any more, so anyone in the army has chosen that path. Why should we back slap them for it?

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Fair dos, but we don't have conscription or national service any more, so anyone in the army has chosen that path. Why should we back slap them for it?

noseyrosie,

Quite right. They must have a screw loose or something. Why would anyone in their right mind want to put their life on the line for Queen and country for a pittance of a salary and total lack of respect? After all, mercenary armies pay much better and they wouldn't have to worry about all those messy rules and regulations concerning human rights, etc...

Here is a scary one. Perhaps you might want to backslap them instead of being indifferent because you don't want conscription or national service to come back?
;)

I had an American friend over from Chicago a couple of months ago (actually it was just after the London bombings).

She could not believe that British citizens could freely talk down the government and our general way of life. She found the fact that we questioned our Prime Minister and our country's actions in a time of crisis absolutely amazing.

She maintained that such a debate in the media would not happen where she comes from as the emphasis is to rally around the leader and the flag without question.

After a while she came to the conclusion that we were a more functional democracy because of it. She said (and I will always remember this);
We (Americans) see so much of what goes on in shades of black and white, whereas over here you get it in color!

So debate, and deconstruction of the state of things is a good thing according to my friend!


(But she is a democrat so what would she know?)


:rolleyes:

The answer is easy Robbie. There were too many people like you, snobbish twits. I had a good education, and chose the military to get away from the dirty back streets I was born in.
I'm not ashamed of anything I've done.
I don't stand there and say openly that I hate another country. What the hell is wrong with you!!!! I dislike what some do, but I manage to find something good in every place I've been. I haven't been stuck in Walkley, with a week in Cleethorpes for my holiday. Then presume that I can talk with authority about my country. Yes sir, my country, I am an American citizen.

Originally posted by Chicago
Robbie,

You are some work of art! At age 28 you know the universe that surrounds you and that's about all. How can you compare your job pushing a pencil some drab office to the work that veterans have done? Your belittlement of veterans is truly appalling. My grandfather served in the British Army in WWII and his father served during WWI. Without them your dumb ass would be sprechen deutsch. Grow up slugger!

The Armed forces is a career. Most people who join are under educated. It has far better pay than they would get if most of them tried to get a job here. A lot of p[eople join at 16 with zero qualifications.

My Grandad died in the Battle of Britain. What exactly is your point here?

In fact, why an I arguing with you two. You both seem to know MUCH more than me about the world.

My belittlement of veterans. my belittlement of someone who thinks that because he's served in the Armed forces he is the automatic knowledge on all world history? Yes. I don't see why sailing in Korean waters almost 20 years after the war makes him an expert on the Korean War. I have an extensive Korean film collection does that make me an expert?

And Buck, I wasn't stating for one second that you were undereducated but that most of military recruits are.

Originally posted by buck
The answer is easy Robbie. There were too many people like you, snobbish twits. I had a good education, and chose the military to get away from the dirty back streets I was born in.
I'm not ashamed of anything I've done.
I don't stand there and say openly that I hate another country. What the hell is wrong with you!!!! I dislike what some do, but I manage to find something good in every place I've been. I haven't been stuck in Walkley, with a week in Cleethorpes for my holiday. Then presume that I can talk with authority about my country. Yes sir, my country, I am an American citizen.

stuck in Walkely? you know nothing of my history yet you belittle Sheffield and me as a Sheffielder in these dirty streets?

talk about snobbish twits eh.

Originally posted by Chicago
noseyrosie,

Quite right. They must have a screw loose or something. Why would anyone in their right mind want to put their life on the line for Queen and country for a pittance of a salary and total lack of respect? After all, mercenary armies pay much better and they wouldn't have to worry about all those messy rules and regulations concerning human rights, etc...

Here is a scary one. Perhaps you might want to backslap them instead of being indifferent because you don't want conscription or national service to come back?
;)

hey the people in the army, navy,RAF and our emergency services on the whole to a great service to this country. The fact that it is their CHOICE to join is the point I'm making. I don't see why anyone should feel superior to tohers because they have served in the forces.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Fair dos, but we don't have conscription or national service any more, so anyone in the army has chosen that path. Why should we back slap them for it?
We Don't have conscription now! When I was young we did.

You could say the same about the police force, they are not forced to look after people like yourself that seem to think that the world revolves around your views and opinions.

You and Robbie should get together as you both suit each other.
None of you have any respect for people that put their lives on the line and all I can say is that you are nothing more than ungratefull to the very people that gave you a life in the first place.

As far as Robbie's comment:The forces are full of undereducated people who get paid a fair amount of wages for being potentially put in life threatening positions.

Let me just say that most veterans are not uneducated and most of us have very good positions back in civvy street.
We don't need technology such as calculators as we can do trig, or any other mathematical equation in our heads unlike the younger generation who get lost as soon as the computer breaks down or the calculator batteries run out.
The only technology we had was a slide rule.


Buck! you have hit the nail on the head, we are taxed to death here but you have to realise that we have to pay and susidise the uneducated and the workshy an amount to have what they want.

Seems to me that some people are just jealouse of the way that others live in the US or anywhere else where people are better off.

what is your issue with worksy people? You seem to post it on every thread and apply it to anyone who isn't you.

People who served this country during the wars and after sacrificed their lives to keep this country free. I have the upmost respect for them.

People who join the forces now do so as a CAREER choice. They do so because it is a lot better paid than any other job they can get (this is in general) Th4ey do not tdo it to serve their country or protect the world.

Why should it make them more important than say Firemen or the Police or Teachers or doctors?

Good for you, buck.

Last week, I was seriously considering leaving the forum because I couldn't stomach a few ignorant persons running their big mouths. And the less they seem to know, the more they talk. Judging from the kind and supportive e-mails I received, (thank you everyone!) thank God they are in the minority.

I absolutely cringe when I hear young people disrespecting veterans such as yourself, Chicago's grandfather and great-grandfather, and my own grandfather and great uncles who served in the US army and navy in WWI and WWII. Including my great uncle Robert, who died at the age of 24 when his plane was shot down over Germany, and who I know only through photographs. They should be ashamed of themselves.

The rest of us owe veterans such as yourself a debt we can never repay. I think young people today really don't understand that the carefree life they enjoy, and the freedoms they take for granted are the direct result of the many sacrifices made by veterans.

You should be proud to call yourself an American. We are proud to have you. I was born here. An accident I had nothing to do with, but you chose to come here. IMHO, people like yourself make the best Americans. Out of all the countries in the world, you chose to make America your home. England's loss is our gain.

:) Sierra

Originally posted by robbie
what is your issue with worksy people? You seem to post it on every thread and apply it to anyone who isn't you.

People who served this country during the wars and after sacrificed their lives to keep this country free. I have the upmost respect for them.

People who join the forces now do so as a CAREER choice. They do so because it is a lot better paid than any other job they can get (this is in general) Th4ey do not tdo it to serve their country or protect the world.

Why should it make them more important than say Firemen or the Police or Teachers or doctors? Sorry Robbie, I just have this thing about paying out lol.

The ones who join the forces these days end up losing their lives in Iraq or Afghanistan. I wouldn't wish their job or their possible fates on anyone.

THe pay that they do get is not worth the loss of life and is not realy as much as one would get in civvy street.

My son was in the Lifeguards/ Blues N Royals before being injured 3 years ago.
He joined already well educated but looked at the army life as a career as you have said.
He was also willing to put his life on the line for Queen and country.

Anyway we are off Topic......America doesn't deserve any bashings about how they responded to the disaster.
The UK also has a miserable history of responding in the same way here.
I would say that all leaders have a problem when it comes to looking after the people that voted them in.
America is no different from here in that respect.

Well said , Sierra and others.

It always seemed strange to me , over the years to hear and see the left-wing fanatics screaming about the ,"fascist governments " of Britain and America . In the same breath , they would also be criticising the army and , "Western militarism ".
They couldn't begin to see that if we didn't have a strong army or had never had one , if men hadn't sacrificed their lives and health , over the years , then THEY , the left -wing , wouldn't be demonstrating in the streets or even voting or even vocal ; in fact , if they even tried , they would have found themselves in the British equivalent of Buchenwald -------then they would have had plenty of real , "fascism " to moan about.

Originally posted by Fareast
Wolfman ,


Wow , right on , there !
And there we all were thinking that America was the biggest consumer of drugs and other places , like Columbia , Thailand , Turkey and Afghanistan were supplying them !
You've really opened our eyes to the truth at last .

I gave that example to illustrate that the major suppliers of drugs are seen to be 'bigger' criminals than the guys who pedal the drugs on the street.

Compared to small fry like Saddam, the US is by far the largest perpertrator of crimes against humanity.

For the record, Columbia and Afghanistan who you mentioned are also allies of the US :)

Originally posted by Chicago
Robbie,

You are some work of art! At age 28 you know the universe that surrounds you and that's about all. How can you compare your job pushing a pencil some drab office to the work that veterans have done? Your belittlement of veterans is truly appalling. My grandfather served in the British Army in WWII and his father served during WWI. Without them your dumb ass would be sprechen deutsch. Grow up slugger!

I thought the point (which seems reasonable to me) is that just because he fought in korea in no way implies he has more knowledge of the historical aspects of it than someone else.

"Compared to small fry like Saddam, the US is by far the largest perpertrator of crimes against humanity!"

Start smelling what your shovelling wolfie. You drop in, make a politically crude and off the wall statement damning "zionists"/amerikka/whoever and the fact is, your posts seem to have almost no genuine substance whatsoever. You are gonna have to start backing your mad ideas up.

Sierra,
Don't let the idiot fringe ever drive you away from your opinion or your right to defend your country, no matter where. You can enjoy the same rights on a British forum as you can back home. That comes from a long shared history that some here would like to see ended.
Robbie said I insulted Sheffield when I said I was born in the mean and dirty streets of the city. I was, and you a Californian would have been appalled at the soot and grime coming from the steel works chimnies.
But that was then not now. Though I haven't been there for 16 years it was a totally different place when I left. Clean and pleasant.
Sheffielders are, in the main, a friendly, down to earth people who like, as do most Yorkshireman, a good argument over a pint. But there is an obstinacy among some that will never see another's point of view, or will throw out comments about the uneducated soldiery. That sounds like the typical statement you might expect from a snobby civil servant anywhere.

By the way, I did not serve in Korea twenty years after the event. It was 1952 and I was 20 years old. Please get your facts right.

keep up with the personal attacks guys. you lot are my best argument.

One Question Robbie......Have you ever lived in another country besides the UK?

Originally posted by Delboy3
One Question Robbie......Have you ever lived in another country besides the UK?

very briefly in France

Trying not to be personal in anyway but I find that if a person has lived in a particular country....it does give them some right to make comments/statements about the way they are and the way they are run.

To have relied on media for any facts regarding a country, it's leaders etc is a little nieve.

It's a bit like someone telling you that the UK is ruled by an idiot and that the UK is a rubbish place, without ever experiencing a visit or actually living here.

I can see why any american would take offence at the comments posted in this forum.

To buck and the rest ignore robbie he is a liberal twit who spouts off all the time,he is typical of the silly leftie types we have on here.
I thank god we did not have to rely on his sort in the last war or we would have lost,he has no rspect for himself so he wont have any for the rest of us.
Dont waste your time on him ,he aint worth it.

so what you are saying is that no one is allowed to have an opinion about anything unless they have done it?

Which I think is a bit naive again. I agree that relying on media sources for information is fraught with danger. However, it is pointless us having any debates on this forum.

I express an opinion gained from study, US friends, media etc etc. I amitted early on that I don;t like "America" so I am obviously coming from a certain perspective.

Originally posted by royjames
To buck and the rest ignore robbie he is a liberal twit who spouts off all the time,he is typical of the silly leftie types we have on here.
I thank god we did not have to rely on his sort in the last war or we would have lost,he has no rspect for himself so he wont have any for the rest of us.
Dont waste your time on him ,he aint worth it.

yes you listen to our forum racist. he's probably been doing a rain dance for the last 2 weeks.

and your sort Roy were on the other side in the world wars. REMEMBER?

and your sort Roy were on the other side in the world wars. REMEMBER? [/B][/QUOTE]

NO robbie it was patriotic people like my family who fought in the war so to give everyone the right to have their say,yes even you.
Both my grandparents fought in the war,one was a spitfire pilot and the other served in the british army,mind you I suspect if they listen to you they would feel ashamed to be british.
As the americans would say ,your a jerk

Originally posted by robbie
so what you are saying is that no one is allowed to have an opinion about anything unless they have done it?

Which I think is a bit naive again. I agree that relying on media sources for information is fraught with danger. However, it is pointless us having any debates on this forum.

I express an opinion gained from study, US friends, media etc etc. I amitted early on that I don;t like "America" so I am obviously coming from a certain perspective.
Surely , To be able to form an opinion in the first place, one has to have seen or experienced otherwise the opinion is of no value.
You have not said why you hate Americans yet state that you have learned from US Friends? Confusing!

It cannot be from an experience that you have had from living with them so why hate someone that you do not know?

In effect you are no better than Roy.

[In effect you are no better than Roy. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well I certainly wont take lessons from you derek,your the one who stabs people in the back.
Your nothing more than a traitor,you are the lowest of the low in my opinion.:mad:

Originally posted by royjames
[In effect you are no better than Roy.

Well I certainly wont take lessons from you derek,your the one who stabs people in the back.
Your nothing more than a traitor,you are the lowest of the low in my opinion.:mad: [/B][/QUOTE] A little off track...I accept your opinion but I couldnt remain with a bunch of Racists that were hellbent on one subject.
However if you believe that telling the truth is back stabbing then I accept your opinion as truth.One question: Traitor to whom?

so let me sum this thread up.

1; I'm not allowed to comment on any issue I haven't had any direct personal experience of.

2: I said the majority of US voters in the last election voted for Bush. So those who didn't vote may as well had as well. I also stated that the majority of Americans I know and speak to say "I never voted for Bush" yet they did nothing about stopping him getting in or getting him out.

I get people who love this country so much that they left and got citizenship in another country that pays them more money calling me a prick and telling me to sort my acne out. Then calling me a twit, snob ehatever else.

I get several other people who either American, have left the county in order to earn more money, are racist or are former "racists" calling me everything under the sun.

I don;t agree with them therefore I'm a lefty srtudent twit who pushed pens and is a snob.

and repeated attempts to get back onto the topic including apologising to other posters has led with more personal abuse for me.

well, have fun kids. I'm ignoring you from this moment on. Enjoy your WASP right wing love in while I go and hig some trees.

Originally posted by Delboy3
Surely , To be able to form an opinion in the first place, one has to have seen or experienced otherwise the opinion is of no value.
You have not said why you hate Americans yet state that you have learned from US Friends? Confusing!

It cannot be from an experience that you have had from living with them so why hate someone that you do not know?

In effect you are no better than Roy.

I never said I hated Americans 9or of I did I certainly didn't mean to". I hate "America" and all it stands for yes. I take people on a case by case basis.

Apologies Robbie, I did say that I didnt want to get personal....And the topic has gone way off......You did say that you don't like America....But never gave a reason.
As far as being an ex Racist, I was a patriot but joined up to the wrong crowd to which I truly regret having done so.

Originally posted by Delboy3
Surely , To be able to form an opinion in the first place, one has to have seen or experienced otherwise the opinion is of no value.
You have not said why you hate Americans yet state that you have learned from US Friends? Confusing!



absolute nonsense!

I lived overseas for severak years and I am sure there are people that have never been there who know just as much about how it is.

In this day and age you can get all sorts of information on the net (blogs, newspapers, forums etc) and can easily find out a lot about things without experiencing them.

I agree it is harder to know what day to day life is like, but certainly political and historical aspects can be understood without being in attendance at said time and place. Otherwise how do historians know so much?

Though I dont get how you hate people without meeting them to be honest. Buit certainly you can understand the korean war better than a war veteran without actually being there. I bet theres many historians that understand ww2 far better than many dday veterans.

Well I'll back you up Robbie, even if noone else will!

By the way, digression, yes, but I'd like to ask why people on this forum use the terms 'leftie' 'socialist' and 'liberal' interchangably?

Liberalism is a form of capitalism, and usually a description of one viewpoint within a particular party - you could have conservative and liberal factions within the Liberal Democrat or Conservative parties, for example.

Socialism, and leftism tends to apply to this, is the opposite, and usually (seeing as we live under it) the opposition to capitalism.

Clearly different things.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Well I'll back you up Robbie, even if noone else will!

By the way, digression, yes, but I'd like to ask why people on this forum use the terms 'leftie' 'socialist' and 'liberal' interchangably?

Liberalism is a form of capitalism, and usually a description of one viewpoint within a particular party - you could have conservative and liberal factions within the Liberal Democrat or Conservative parties, for example.

Socialism, and leftism tends to apply to this, is the opposite, and usually (seeing as we live under it) the opposition to capitalism.

Clearly different things.

I'm amazed you need this explained to you, but there's a world of difference between Liberal and liberal. The capital letter changes the meaning totally.

Originally posted by robbie
so let me sum this thread up.

1; I'm not allowed to comment on any issue I haven't had any direct personal experience of.

2: I said the majority of US voters in the last election voted for Bush. So those who didn't vote may as well had as well. I also stated that the majority of Americans I know and speak to say "I never voted for Bush" yet they did nothing about stopping him getting in or getting him out.

I get people who love this country so much that they left and got citizenship in another country that pays them more money calling me a prick and telling me to sort my acne out. Then calling me a twit, snob ehatever else.

I get several other people who either American, have left the county in order to earn more money, are racist or are former "racists" calling me everything under the sun.

I don;t agree with them therefore I'm a lefty srtudent twit who pushed pens and is a snob.

and repeated attempts to get back onto the topic including apologising to other posters has led with more personal abuse for me.

well, have fun kids. I'm ignoring you from this moment on. Enjoy your WASP right wing love in while I go and hig some trees.

Hi robbie,

I wanted to tell you that you shouldn't feel that your views aren't welcome, or that you shouldn't post. I was feeling the very same way myself last week, and was thisclose to leaving the forum. Please don't ignore those who wish to speak with you. I want to talk with you, and maybe we can clear the air. I addressed a certain forum member earlier on this thread by name. Twice. In the hopes of opening a dialogue with this person, and was ignored both times. Even by american standards, ignoring someone when they address you by name is plain 'ol rude.

After being a member of this forum for 10 months, I honestly believe that the biggest problem here is misunderstanding. Forum members making blanket statements like, I hate america, all americans are greedy, all they care about is the almighty dollar, and my personal favorite, all americans are insular. Such statements are counterproductive, and immediately put the americans on the forum on the defensive. They also kill any chance at discussion.

Our countries are very different. Things that make perfect sense here, seem crazy over there, and vice versa. For instance, the election of George Bush. I don't like him. I didn't vote for him, but I know plenty of people who did. Yes. Even though California is a "blue' state, there are tons of rich people here who want to hang onto their money. Think I'm kidding? While this could probably be considered greedy, can you blame them?

I don't like George Bush's foreign policy, but neither am I so gullible that I believe that if we would only be "nice", that other countries would like us. Good grief. I figured this out when I was eight, and Lisa Usher promised to be my field trip buddy in exchange for my angel food cupcake. Surprise. When the cupcake was gone, so was she.

His immigration policy (if you can call it a policy, it's mostly an open door, c'mon in and set a spell policy) is a disaster. It's bankrupting the US health care system, and worse, allowing that weasel Vicente Foxx to send his problems north instead of making changes to better the lives of the mexican people.

However. He was elected fair and square. I have no patience for poor loser crybabies, or conspiracists who insist that he "stole' the election. All we can do is make the best of a bad situation. And as for getting him out? Shall we storm the white house like the angry villagers in Frankenstein? He's in. They tried to impeach Clinton, and he simply refused to leave. Showing himself to be not the president, or a Rhodes scholar, but a stubborn Arkansas boy who wasn't going to let anyone push him around.

I believe there is still much of the angry, defiant, english colonist who left England still alive in the average american. Who thinks, we do what WE want. Not what YOU want us to do, and we don't care if you don't like it! It's why we attract people like buck, who for whatever reason, wasn't satisfied with his life in Sheffield, and left everything he knew behind to start life someplace new. He had no idea if things would work out, or if he'd be happy, but he took that chance, and you have to admit...that takes guts.

So let's talk. Without getting angry, and without personal insults. I'll bet we have more in common than not.

:) Sierra

Beautifully put, as always Sierra. I'd like to think you're not wasting your breath, but I'm not too confident. The America haters are pretty well entrenched around here ;)

Originally posted by mojoworking
Beautifully put, as always Sierra. I'd like to think you're not wasting your breath, but I'm not too confident. The America haters are pretty well entrenched around here ;)
There's America and there's the US of A. Hate is an extreme word. I don't think anyone would dispute that a lot of great things have come out of that country, but it is a more endemic, ideological objection that people have. They are the world's only superpower and, to use a cliche, with such power comes great responsibilty. If a nation is to suppose the role of world enforcer, they have to adhere to values that they are so keen to criticise others for lacking. When you see thousands dying due to an inertia born from an economic value in human life; the same demographic fighting wars to line the pockets of congress; an uncritical, indiginous media that borders on propoganda, sweetened by lines of scripted rhetoric from a president who would rather be continuing his extended vacation- it is hard not to be a bit sickened. Clinton had an impeachment case against him for far less.

But you have to say, if we were the leading power in the world, would we be any more responsible? History would suggest not.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Beautifully put, as always Sierra. I'd like to think you're not wasting your breath, but I'm not too confident. The America haters are pretty well entrenched around here ;)

Thank you, mojo.

Even if we don't agree, I just don't want robbie, or anyone else to feel that no one wants to hear what they have to say. It's why I was ready to quit the forum last week, and it's why robbie is ready to throw in the towel and walk away. When you feel no one is willing to listen to what you have to say, you just want to give up and not even participate in the discussion.

Really. If someone tells me they hate America. My first inclination is to ask them, "why?' Tell me what bothers you, maybe I can explain it. Then, while not excusing whatever it is, it might make sense to you.

Hopefully, we can put aside our differences and try to understand one another. Even if it kills us. :hihi:


:) Sierra

Originally posted by Sierra
Thank you, mojo.

Even if we don't agree, I just don't want robbie, or anyone else to feel that no one wants to hear what they have to say. It's why I was ready to quit the forum last week, and it's why robbie is ready to throw in the towel and walk away. When you feel no one is willing to listen to what you have to say, you just want to give up and not even participate in the discussion.

Really. If someone tells me they hate America. My first inclination is to ask them, "why?' Tell me what bothers you, maybe I can explain it. Then, while not excusing whatever it is, it might make sense to you.

Hopefully, we can put aside our differences and try to understand one another. Even if it kills us. :hihi:


:) Sierra

The difference is Sierra, some people have something worthwhile and thought provoking to say (eg Tubthump above). Whereas others just rant and rave like they're in a 6th form student debate and make very little sense at all.

I think everyone is entitled to explanation why I hate "America" (not Americans).

I am talking about the whole huge package that I see as a souless, corporate, selfish, capitalist machine.

I hate the idea of gain at the detriment to others. I hate the whole "American Dream" and a society that I view as being based on wealth, status and personal gain.

I hate the way whenever something happens to dumb down American society it almost always kicks on here and this country gets worse (although that is hardly Americas fault)

I hate the greed and waste of large corporations. I hate the right wing republicanism. I hate the destruction of the environment and waste of energy. The exploitation of the poor for the benefit of the rich (although again the UK does the same but to a much lower level although we based and empire on it)

I hate the fact that the richest country in the world only ever seems to get involved in issues outside it's borders if it had something to gain from it. "America" doesn;t seem to act to help others unless it has something personal to gain from it.

I hate the gun culture. The fact that a president can illegally gain access to the most powerful position in the world and the only response from Americans is to shrug (seemingly as a a whole)

I hate the fact that although there is gross wealth for some there is gross poverty for huge numbers. That people can fall out of a system and join the growing numbers of an underclass. That seemingly the rich would rather barricade themselves in secure areas than try and help others.

The prevailent commercialisation of the entire of society. That schools would rather put children's health at risk by installing vending machines for large corporations and advesrtising/sponsorship because they get paid a lot of money. (although I know this is beginning to change)

The fact that children are allowed to become morbidly obese and the parents do nothing about it. The whole laziness culture and fast food. The unhealthiness of food.

Reality tv and right wing religous hatred.

I think basically I've seen over the duration of my life the descent of the UK down the same route as the States and it really really upsets me. Everything is beginning to get dumbed down. We have become letigious. it's all my right to this, my right to that.

I realise that if for some reason the US sunk without trace it would only be a matter of time before another country stepped up and took over in the same vein. That appears to be our nature as human beings.

People seem to be self obsessed these days. They feel that they have the right to whatever they want without working for it. I'm just sad to live in a society which holds the values of money, materialism and ownership over community, charity and caring

And my main gripe is that when world ventures arrise that could improve the lot of people all over the world and would eventually improve the American lot the US government will not participate unless they have something to gain from it. Kyoto, emission levels, sustainable energy, fair trade, tariffs etc etc

having read all ur comments, i dare say that u guys have a lot of things 2 say 'bout this particular man..
yeah...whatever..
i think i'll just stick to rosie..she's damn rite 'bout him...
he's the most 'dislikable' man i had ever known...i mean, think of all the damage he has done to this world...apart from his good side[which is too little :D ]totally pathetic!
as for katrina which had swept the entire new orlands, i don see any help rapidly given enough 2 those ppl there.
now its proven that:action speaks louder than words::heyhey:

Originally posted by robbie
I think everyone is entitled to explanation why I hate "America" (not Americans).

I am talking about the whole huge package that I see as a souless, corporate, selfish, capitalist machine.

I hate the idea of gain at the detriment to others. I hate the whole "American Dream" and a society that I view as being based on wealth, status and personal gain.

I hate the way whenever something happens to dumb down American society it almost always kicks on here and this country gets worse (although that is hardly Americas fault)

I hate the greed and waste of large corporations. I hate the right wing republicanism. I hate the destruction of the environment and waste of energy. The exploitation of the poor for the benefit of the rich (although again the UK does the same but to a much lower level although we based and empire on it)

I hate the fact that the richest country in the world only ever seems to get involved in issues outside it's borders if it had something to gain from it. "America" doesn;t seem to act to help others unless it has something personal to gain from it.

I hate the gun culture. The fact that a president can illegally gain access to the most powerful position in the world and the only response from Americans is to shrug (seemingly as a a whole)

I hate the fact that although there is gross wealth for some there is gross poverty for huge numbers. That people can fall out of a system and join the growing numbers of an underclass. That seemingly the rich would rather barricade themselves in secure areas than try and help others.

The prevailent commercialisation of the entire of society. That schools would rather put children's health at risk by installing vending machines for large corporations and advesrtising/sponsorship because they get paid a lot of money. (although I know this is beginning to change)

The fact that children are allowed to become morbidly obese and the parents do nothing about it. The whole laziness culture and fast food. The unhealthiness of food.

Reality tv and right wing religous hatred.

I think basically I've seen over the duration of my life the descent of the UK down the same route as the States and it really really upsets me. Everything is beginning to get dumbed down. We have become letigious. it's all my right to this, my right to that.

I realise that if for some reason the US sunk without trace it would only be a matter of time before another country stepped up and took over in the same vein. That appears to be our nature as human beings.

People seem to be self obsessed these days. They feel that they have the right to whatever they want without working for it. I'm just sad to live in a society which holds the values of money, materialism and ownership over community, charity and caring


so you actually hate the american "ideal" , although i dont agree with you on numerous points as most are debatable opinions or simple blanket comments . at least people are aware of your real views which in essence are not aimed at the individual but the culture & society.

Gosh robbie,

That's quite a list. Are you sure you didn't leave anything out? ;)

Why don't you tell me what you think the American Dream is, and let's see if were even on the same page.

Go ahead. I'm listening. If I don't get back to you right away, it's because I've gone to bed. It's 11:30 at night here. But go ahead, I want to know. What do you think the American Dream is.

:) Sierra

Originally posted by d1La
having read all ur comments, i dare say that u guys have a lot of things 2 say 'bout this particular man..
yeah...whatever..
i think i'll just stick to rosie..she's damn rite 'bout him...
he's the most 'dislikable' man i had ever known...i mean, think of all the damage he has done to this world...apart from his good side[which is too little :D ]totally pathetic!
as for katrina which had swept the entire new orlands, i don see any help rapidly given enough 2 those ppl there.
now its proven that:action speaks louder than words::heyhey:

It's Ali G! :thumbsup:

Listing things that you hate about the USA is like shooting fish in a barrel. In many ways America is the easiest of targets because it gives us the best and worst of everything.

It's hard to argue with many of the items on your list Robbie, but equally I could list twice as many things that make the USA great.

Quite simply everything about America (good and bad) is the result of something called freedom of choice. Would you like to live without it?

i'd be most happy if somebody else's leading the country..:clap:
no offense~

-nonamericanhaters-

Originally posted by robbie
I think everyone is entitled to explanation why I hate "America" (not Americans).

I am talking about the whole huge package that I see as a souless, corporate, selfish, capitalist machine.

I hate the idea of gain at the detriment to others. I hate the whole "American Dream" and a society that I view as being based on wealth, status and personal gain.

I hate the way whenever something happens to dumb down American society it almost always kicks on here and this country gets worse (although that is hardly Americas fault)

I hate the greed and waste of large corporations. I hate the right wing republicanism. I hate the destruction of the environment and waste of energy. The exploitation of the poor for the benefit of the rich (although again the UK does the same but to a much lower level although we based and empire on it)

I hate the fact that the richest country in the world only ever seems to get involved in issues outside it's borders if it had something to gain from it. "America" doesn;t seem to act to help others unless it has something personal to gain from it.

I hate the gun culture. The fact that a president can illegally gain access to the most powerful position in the world and the only response from Americans is to shrug (seemingly as a a whole)

I hate the fact that although there is gross wealth for some there is gross poverty for huge numbers. That people can fall out of a system and join the growing numbers of an underclass. That seemingly the rich would rather barricade themselves in secure areas than try and help others.

The prevailent commercialisation of the entire of society. That schools would rather put children's health at risk by installing vending machines for large corporations and advesrtising/sponsorship because they get paid a lot of money. (although I know this is beginning to change)

The fact that children are allowed to become morbidly obese and the parents do nothing about it. The whole laziness culture and fast food. The unhealthiness of food.

Reality tv and right wing religous hatred.

I think basically I've seen over the duration of my life the descent of the UK down the same route as the States and it really really upsets me. Everything is beginning to get dumbed down. We have become letigious. it's all my right to this, my right to that.

I realise that if for some reason the US sunk without trace it would only be a matter of time before another country stepped up and took over in the same vein. That appears to be our nature as human beings.

People seem to be self obsessed these days. They feel that they have the right to whatever they want without working for it. I'm just sad to live in a society which holds the values of money, materialism and ownership over community, charity and caring

Well said, Robbie - you're absolutely spot-on.

And it should be perfectly obvious to anyone that your gripe is with the American economic system and its resulting social and foreign policies, rather than having a problem with any individual.

This was in fact obvious all along, but some people chose not to see it.

I think some of you on here owe Robbie an apology.

StarSparkle

No we dont. As if america is the only country with reality TV, fat kids, unhealthy school dinners (turkey twizzlers anyone?) and a class divide. Rubbish.

Originally posted by skny
No we dont. .

I'm sad you don't have the grace to see it.

StarSparkle

You dont need grace to spot weak, prejudicial arguments. No country or system is perfect, you could make a list like robbies for any country, and most of them would probably be worse, so, no, I dont think he has validated himself even if you do.

Originally posted by skny
You dont need grace to spot weak, prejudicial arguments. No country or system is perfect, you could make a list like robbies for any country, and most of them would probably be worse, so, no, I dont think he has validated himself even if you do.

Well said skny. You summed it up perfectly. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by mojoworking
Well said skny. You summed it up perfectly. :thumbsup:

Rubbish. I was referring to the needlessly unpleasant, personal remarks aimed at Robbie over and over again earlier in this thread, and I do think some apologies are in order.

By the way, Mojoworking, so-called 'freedom of choice' only exists for those who have the money to avail themselves of it.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by robbie
I think everyone is entitled to explanation why I hate "America" (not Americans).

I am talking about the whole huge package that I see as a souless, corporate, selfish, capitalist machine.

I hate the idea of gain at the detriment to others. I hate the whole "American Dream" and a society that I view as being based on wealth, status and personal gain.

I hate the way whenever something happens to dumb down American society it almost always kicks on here and this country gets worse (although that is hardly Americas fault)

I hate the greed and waste of large corporations. I hate the right wing republicanism. I hate the destruction of the environment and waste of energy. The exploitation of the poor for the benefit of the rich (although again the UK does the same but to a much lower level although we based and empire on it)

I hate the fact that the richest country in the world only ever seems to get involved in issues outside it's borders if it had something to gain from it. "America" doesn;t seem to act to help others unless it has something personal to gain from it.

I hate the gun culture. The fact that a president can illegally gain access to the most powerful position in the world and the only response from Americans is to shrug (seemingly as a a whole)

I hate the fact that although there is gross wealth for some there is gross poverty for huge numbers. That people can fall out of a system and join the growing numbers of an underclass. That seemingly the rich would rather barricade themselves in secure areas than try and help others.

The prevailent commercialisation of the entire of society. That schools would rather put children's health at risk by installing vending machines for large corporations and advesrtising/sponsorship because they get paid a lot of money. (although I know this is beginning to change)

The fact that children are allowed to become morbidly obese and the parents do nothing about it. The whole laziness culture and fast food. The unhealthiness of food.

Reality tv and right wing religous hatred.

I think basically I've seen over the duration of my life the descent of the UK down the same route as the States and it really really upsets me. Everything is beginning to get dumbed down. We have become letigious. it's all my right to this, my right to that.

I realise that if for some reason the US sunk without trace it would only be a matter of time before another country stepped up and took over in the same vein. That appears to be our nature as human beings.

People seem to be self obsessed these days. They feel that they have the right to whatever they want without working for it. I'm just sad to live in a society which holds the values of money, materialism and ownership over community, charity and caring

Thats a whole lot of hate Robbie!

I think American people need to understand that there are more people who are disalusioned with America right now, because American policies are directly effecting their lives, and they can do nothing about it. You may not beleive in climate change, or the damage that is happening to the envorioment, but people do. Infact the scientfic consensus does.

As for America loosing it's way; I live in a great area, i can go to old American towns, see how beutifull they are, how Americana of the 50's and 60's gives me a sence of nostalgia, even though i did not even live during that time. In contrast i see strip malls with no personality, no architectural significance, because that would not make good business sence. It would effect margines. I think there is something sad in that.

I live in a small historic town, and some time ago a movies studio wanted to use the town to shoot a movie. They spent money restoring it to how it looked in the 20's. Now it's back to being empty shops, looking messy and beaten down because businesses cannot compete with the low cost strip malls.

Americans do not take critizism well, not of their country. I do not think there is onw American taking part in this that can say you don't. It's because of patriatism that is so much a part of this culture. You also need to understand that in the U.K we are a nation of people who critisise, or take the ****. We are our own best critics. If you spent the time reading this board far more of it is spent knocking England than anybody else. The anti-American MEME will only hurt America. It's not helped the Jewish. It forsters a deeper longer lasting hatered, it's a new thing we are seeing. And i hope people realize what its effects will be, and they do it soon. Saying somebody is Anti-American is to many just a way of not having to make a strong point, that will not help, it will make things worse.

Thanks Robbie for your explanation as to why you do not like America.

One small Flaw is that you have described the UK way of life to a T.

Do you think that the Americans have learned this way of life from us as we have been doing exactly as you state for a few hundred years?

If you look around the world every country has the same situations where money comes before charity or the wellbeing of others.
The reason for this is that we live in a materialistic world where a person is judged on how well they have done for themselves.

This is not a bad thing as without this, what would be the point in bettering ones self if everyone was equal and it would be very boring if there was nothing to work for in life.

Charity itself begins at home first, before one can give, one must have!
Catch 22.

It's painful to have to agree with Robbie on some of his points, but at least it gives a chance to respond instead of " I hate America".
I have never considered America perfect. We attempt every few years to remedy what ails us by electing someone we can trust.
If that trust fails, we have the power of impeachment. Impeachment is not a very good way of solving a problem, and has only ever been used very seldom.
Most of American Capitalistic ideals came from learning from Victorian England and the Empire, and whether you like it or not it is still the driving force of the world's economy.
During the couple of years between leaving the navy and going to Canada, I did some field installations in Poland and Yugoslavia, at that time very communist. If you ever wanted to live that lifestyle you would have changed your mind in a hurry.
Nothing worth buying, secret police everywhere, commissars in charge instead of professionals, and worst of all fear everywhere.
We do not have universal health care, I wish we did if not for myself but at least for those less fortunate, but people are not turned away in an emergency. Poor reasoning I know. I contracted cancer of the larynx three years ago. With radiation and excellent care I beat it. On the other hand my cousin and best friend in Sheffield complained of stomach pains and did not get a biopsy for nearly a year under the NH. He died late last year. His son who lives in Dallas has no love for England since. So you see what it can take to foster hatred.
One very trivial point in your argument. You mentioned Reality TV. Big Brother, Survivor, American Idol, and others were spawned in the UK or other parts of Europe. All we do over here is make the prize money worthwhile.

Originally posted by Sierra
Gosh robbie,

That's quite a list. Are you sure you didn't leave anything out? ;)

Why don't you tell me what you think the American Dream is, and let's see if were even on the same page.

Go ahead. I'm listening. If I don't get back to you right away, it's because I've gone to bed. It's 11:30 at night here. But go ahead, I want to know. What do you think the American Dream is.

:) Sierra

believe me I could write you a 10,000 word dissertation. That was just me jabbering about early in the morning.

American Dream. I unfortunately didn't make myself clear. I will take the Hunter S Thompson version as my norm 9and I've been drinking and the football is on so sorry but I'm too lazy too find it).

My issue is the fact that the American government seem to use the American dream as a way of justifying their social policy. People are poor? Well yes unfortunately they didn;t have what it takes to get the American Dream and therfore fall by the wayside etc etc.


Del, I am describing the US but the UK is becoming as sort of watered down version of that. We hav more social security, fredoms and liberties but we aren't far behind.

and Buck I never inteded it as a personal shot at the American people. And I completely agree that this country is going pretty much the same way.

It upsets me (And I mean it really makes me unhappy) that I see this country following the same route as America.

Unfortunately, I dont think anything can be donew to rectify the situation in eiter country.

I don't know if patriotism is necesserily a good thing or not.I do know that it is a very strong force in America. You will find Stars and Stripes everywhere, outside private homes, stuck on cars, in lines on tree lined avenues, everywhere. They sure brighten up a country which is bright anyway (generally) I'd better say that in case somebody mentions the Bronx. I have two of them in the flower pots by my front door.
There is one problem with it though. There is a tendency on some parts that no place else on earth matters. I met it on several occasions when I was still in UK and especially when working with the USN and the term Ugly American comes to mind when some guy with a big belly and a loud mouth expresses his opinion about the food, accommodation, transport etc. I have met them even lately on my frequent visits to Ireland, and they are not liked much by the Irish. However, I find very little problem within these borders. People are friendly, easy to talk to, and interested about where you came from, especially when you're English.
I don't think its the English way to show it off much. Not a lot of flag flying unless its some royal occasion or so. I can even remember the owner of the shop at Speedwell cavern being told to take down the Union Jack because it was not an official Government building.
Over here the Irish, Italians, Poles, Portugese, Hispanics, West Indians and others have festivals, and great fun they are. We English go quietly about our business and bother nobody.

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Rubbish. I was referring to the needlessly unpleasant, personal remarks aimed at Robbie over and over again earlier in this thread, and I do think some apologies are in order.

By the way, Mojoworking, so-called 'freedom of choice' only exists for those who have the money to avail themselves of it.

StarSparkle

"needlessly unpleasant," hmmm, that sounds like most of your posts recently.

If your mate Robbie is going to mouth off about subjects he has only the flimsiest understanding of, then of course people are going to react badly. What do you expect?


As for Robbie's "explanation", it read more like a grade one backdown to me.

Grow up, please :loopy:

I participated earlier in this thread and have not read the full content but what is *remarkable* is....

a) huge loss of life as a result of recent natural disaster

b) huge communication problems regarding relief for those involved

c) not a economic city like New York....:suspect:

d) no official remembrance silence as noted in this (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58595) thread!

am I just being over sensitive or is the American government playing a part in this pitiful response???

I dunno what to think...the American people seem as dumbfounded as us...:confused:

Dumbfounded or not, we're taking prople into our homes where we've got a room to spare, sending money, blankets, bottled water, batteries, clothes thru every agency from Red cross, Sally Army, St Vincent de Paul, Knights of Columbus, Lion's Clubs every known form of service club in which America abounds. This is not being done by our government, we haven't the time to wait for them.
Note that white families are taking in black families or hispanic Families in places like Utah where not many non-white people live. This country has never relied on welfare, and there's not a lot of it going around, but we do volunteer in our clubs and churches.

Originally posted by mojoworking
"needlessly unpleasant," hmmm, that sounds like most of your posts recently.

If your mate Robbie is going to mouth off about subjects he has only the flimsiest understanding of, then of course people are going to react badly. What do you expect?


As for Robbie's "explanation", it read more like a grade one backdown to me.

Grow up, please :loopy:

I'm sorry mastermind we can't all be as intellectual and as informative as you.

we all worship in your wake....

Originally posted by robbie
I'm sorry mastermind we can't all be as intellectual and as informative as you.

we all worship in your wake....

Thanks Robbie, I'll go along with that ;)

Originally posted by mojoworking
"needlessly unpleasant," hmmm, that sounds like most of your posts recently.

If your mate Robbie is going to mouth off about subjects he has only the flimsiest understanding of, then of course people are going to react badly. What do you expect?


As for Robbie's "explanation", it read more like a grade one backdown to me.

Grow up, please :loopy:


This thread is too serious to be dragged down into petty personal squabbles.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by buck
Dumbfounded or not, we're taking prople into our homes where we've got a room to spare, sending money, blankets, bottled water, batteries, clothes thru every agency from Red cross, Sally Army, St Vincent de Paul, Knights of Columbus, Lion's Clubs every known form of service club in which America abounds. This is not being done by our government, we haven't the time to wait for them.


This is wonderful to hear, Buck.

It's such a relief to know that the Human Spirit will shine through, following the dark, dark days of last week. For a while there, things were looking pretty black for Mankind, but Humanity seems to be winning through.

Best wishes to you,

StarSparkle

We are too Buck. Well we have our names in a database and have offered room for a few families. We are in Chicago and people are begining to reach Chicago now. These people need some T.L.C.

You know there have been acusations of being anti-American etc.. even to me an i a married to one. But i will telle everybody in England this, the one thing i love about this country is how generous the people are. How much they do in their own communities, for their communites. It's everywhere, from sponsoring roads to keep them clean (England could learn here), to collecting for the fallens families. This country always pulls together when it counts.

And although the media are consetrating on the looters, people of NO also pulled together.

Sometimes the world really is as simple as good(ish) (http://archiv.radio.cz/nato/fotogalerie1/bush.jpg) versus evil (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/art/h_background.jpg) .

Some wars are more balck and white while others have more shades of gray. I think the recent war against Iraq and the war against terror is an example of the more black and white kind.

Some people just find it impossible to believe that because this is not always the case it can be sometimes. Face it, there are times when the UK and USA are genuinely in a good V evil war.

Originally posted by slimsid2000
Some people just find it impossible to believe that because this is not always the case it can be sometimes. Face it, there are times when the UK and USA are genuinely in a good V evil war.

So... Saddam is evil? And the US and UK are good?

If the US and UK supplied Saddam with weapons, does that make the US and UK evil as well? Or does it make Saddam good?

Please let us know...

And what about these (http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images1/rumsfeld_&_hussein1.jpg) blokes?

I'm sorry the anti-depressants have obviously failed :roll:

Originally posted by Abdul
I'm sorry the anti-depressants have obviously failed :roll:

You can have some of mine Abdul. I don't think I need them today. :suspect:

*rattles pill bottle*

:) Sierra

Originally posted by Sierra
You can have some of mine Abdul. I don't think I need them today. :suspect:

*rattles pill bottle*

:) Sierra

Can i get some too?

Starsparkle is right. Some of us, including me, have allowed our sense of outrage to colour our perspective. Some of the arguments against the American response have been right, and in general I have agreed. But I will not accept that every known evil in the world belongs at this door. There are plenty of historical examples of evil that could be aimed at any rich and powerful country of today or in the past. We have to look at the good the US and UK have done collectively since the middle of last century, and the result is impressive. We took on the entire communist world and defeated it almost without a shot in it's dying days. That meant freedom for millions in Eastern Europe. The war on oppression continues.
So let's all sit back, take a deep breath, and see how things turn out. We cannot bring back the drowned no matter how much we spit at each other, but we can give hope to the survivors.

Originally posted by back2basics
Can i get some too?

Sure. I've got LOTS. Hold out your paw!

:) Sierra

Originally posted by slimsid2000
Sometimes the world really is as simple as good(ish) (http://archiv.radio.cz/nato/fotogalerie1/bush.jpg) versus evil (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/art/h_background.jpg) .

Some wars are more balck and white while others have more shades of gray. I think the recent war against Iraq and the war against terror is an example of the more black and white kind.

Some people just find it impossible to believe that because this is not always the case it can be sometimes. Face it, there are times when the UK and USA are genuinely in a good V evil war.


if the Iraq war is black and white, which war is grey?

And don't like the way you seem to be able to class good and evil there Sid. I think you'll find that whilst most Iraqis hated Saddam most don't really likem us either.

Originally posted by buck
Starsparkle is right. Some of us, including me, have allowed our sense of outrage to colour our perspective. Some of the arguments against the American response have been right, and in general I have agreed. But I will not accept that every known evil in the world belongs at this door. There are plenty of historical examples of evil that could be aimed at any rich and powerful country of today or in the past. We have to look at the good the US and UK have done collectively since the middle of last century, and the result is impressive. We took on the entire communist world and defeated it almost without a shot in it's dying days. That meant freedom for millions in Eastern Europe. The war on oppression continues.
So let's all sit back, take a deep breath, and see how things turn out. We cannot bring back the drowned no matter how much we spit at each other, but we can give hope to the survivors.

took on the communist world? The UK? :confused:

and I'm sure you'll find that a hell of a lot of the liberated Eatern European (whilst now being able to watch badly dubbed Steven Segal movies :gag: ) can't actually afford to eat anymore.

I can't agree with your premice that Communism is necessarily more evil than Capitalism. I suspect conflicts such as Vietnam are hardly a wild endorsement for US efforts.

Sorry and I don't want to inflame the debate again, but the communists were taken down with many shots fired. Backing the Taliban in Afghanistan to start with. Many died their so nobody from America or the UK had to die. There is a case for that, but the U.S.S.R was crumbling from within. They did a great job of hiding that from us, and forcing us to spend more money, as we were trying to get them to do. But by Regan's era, and this is very well documented, the U.S.S.R was crippled.

The UK put Iraq together, putting three different factions together that hated each other. The only person who successfully kept them from destroying each other, as they are now, was Saddam. I am not saying he was a good person at all. He clearly was not, but we cannot keep these people from fighting. He did. That's all I am saying.

South Africa was a huge mistake by the UK.

Going back further than that and it gets worse.

When we are attacked as in WWII we have done great morally defendable things and we won. Other than that our wars have been failures IMHO. Chechnya is still a country that divided, will NATO troops every be able to be withdrawn? Will troops ever be able to be withdraw from Iraq? The talk now is about splitting up Iraq. Even Afghanistan is getting worse again by all accounts.

We have done much good, but when will we learn that you cannot force peace on anybody. When will we learn from our mistakes?


P.S i beleive communism is worse than capitalism. Even in it's purest form it's doomed to failiure.

I agree that communism is generally worse than capitalism. However, I would say that the fact that something is communist doesn't automatically make it all bad.

Also not just our deirect intervention in anti USSR campaigns but also indirect interventions (ie Backing Iraq against Iran because Russia supported Iran)

We must also remember that , as far as I'm concerned, the main reason we won the 2nd world war was Russia's involvement.

Can an American 9or anyone else for that matter) explain why the US hates Russia so much? I can understand the race to be a dominant power but there has always seemed to be an irrational hatred there.

Indeed didn't the US refuse to join WW2 several times because they didn't want to fight on Russia's side?

There is no incentive in Communism for people to excel. That's it's problem. Too much incentive in Capitalism, which leads to corruption. Both are flawed IMHO. I personally believe the U.K has the balance in Capitalism better than anybody. You do need some checks and balances, Enron, WorldCom etc are good examples of that. America is partaking in corporate welfare at the moment. Some of the worst stories I have read are about people who built the airlines, by working for them for 20+ years, having their pensions taken away from them to keep the company afloat. They made the company in the first place. To take away their pensions and prop up the company is not capitalism, it's corporate welfare.

One thing that causes tension between the U.S and U.K that I don't meet many Americans that know it, is the "if we didn't save you in WWII you would be speaking German." I have nearly seen a fight over it, simply because many people in the U.K have grand parents who died in big and important battles and it's disrespectful to their sacrifice. As buck will tell you a war is about many battles not just a few.

Many people do not realize America was selling oil to the Nazis until a few years before they entered the war. Few in America know the de-coding machine not captured by Americans, which really was a turning point in the war. But many English people do not realize how much the Americans DID help. I have a family member who won medals, saved lives, took wounds. He says the Brits were SO HAPPY when the Americans joined the war. Moral was down and not only did their strength help, it helped motivate the entire allied force for a final push.

It's all messed up. History that is. Now is the time to push for change IMHO and an end to unnecessary wars.

Sierra pass me those pills! :)

Coming back to the original point of this thread (not to say that your discussion is of no interest). I'm not a great fan of this guy, but sometimes he has a good way of getting a point across:

"Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.MichaelMoore.com

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way ( http://bringthemhomenowtour.org/ ). Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st."

No end to the spite I see. Good night nurse, I'm disgusted.

Looking through the comments in this topic shows me that the emotions of members are high but more importantly , misplaced.
Instead of slagging each other off, ie US v UK, we should all be working together to preserve what we have got and looking after this earth that was here long before us will be here long after we are gone. Does no one care about what our future generations are going to inherit?
Forget about the Vietnams,Irelands, Iraqs etc. Forget about visiting Mars, massive airliners, V-8 cars & poxy MacDoh! hamburgers. Why don't we concentrate on things like The Ozone, Rainforests,SENSIBLE Protection from the elements.
You don't build a grass hut in the Artic, you build an Igloo.
Humans maybe the most intelligent species on earth, but they are capable of being the most cruel and selfish. We can also be very giving and compassionate. We are also very stupid sometimes, mainly when it comes to possesions. How many times have we got ourselves in debt because we wanted a certain car, holiday, home improvement or latest games consol?
Not much different from Governments that want to be the 1st on Mars or Knocking coal on the head for nuclear power or going to war for someone else because we think its right.
We, ordinary people can make the difference, and that starts with changing our attitude about what we need as opposed to what we want.
This starts at the Ballot Box !!
:cool:

sorry but you can't forget the past. It is like saying someone will rape your sister and then a week later as they have aplogised all is forgiven

It is a short sighted and naive view of life.

do you think the countries that the US and UK have screwed with forget the past. think not.

Robbie, give us all a break and shut the hell up. You've said your piece, nobody cares, nobody's looking, go home to your cup of cocoa, and dream of France, your one and only out of body experience. Leave the world to those who have travelled it, smelled it, suffered it. We don't care GET IT?

I wasn't aware that the world revolved around you Buck. Wasn't in our text books at school. Maybe it is the American text books :confused: I thought I was allowed to have opinions but obviously not.

For what its worth i think the quote "you reap what you sow" about sums up a lot of whats going on at the moment. Anyone in my opinion who thinks other wise is very naieve.

last word Robbie!! Maniacal laughter

Dear Mr. Moore

Thank you from the bottom of our hearts for your dramatic exposure of Pres. Bush and the gang of Fat-Cat businessmen who are secretly in control of America from an underground bunker , somewhere in Texas.We , on the Left in Britain , beg and pray that you will give up making films and put up for President at the next U.S. elections. That should definitely ensure that Bush doesn't serve for a third term .
A lot of your critics have described you as a fat penguin of a man with the charisma and intelligence of an obsessive stoat , but we think otherwise. Our cry is not ,'Michael Moore ' but , 'More Michael ' [Geddit ?]
You have proved beyond all possible doubt that should any storm , earthquake , hurricane , typhoon , flood or fire ever threaten America , Bush and his vile co-horts should get their jackets off and get stuck in.
No wonder the Rest of the World pities America . Look at the prosperity in Africa whilst America sinks into a sea of poverty ! Look at the millions fleeing America to go and live in Cuba [Island of fun and freedom ] and the Democratic Republic of North Korea , away from the Washington dictatorship.
Look at the stability and equality in the countries of South America , whilst America changes governments every 4 years .
Look at Western Europe , united and happy , dancing round maypoles , singing praises to the Euro as they scatter their worthless dollars into the Seine and Rhine . Look what wonderful Socialist societies there were in Eastern Europe before the West undermined it all. All that silly stuff about an , 'Iron Curtain' and oppression . Sheer fantasy !
Look at Asia, with its democracy and prosperity and how America tries to copy such culture in dress , food , films .....etc.....
Yes , Mr. Moore , once again you have pointed the way towards a perfect society , free of all the Evils of Capitalism and its satraps. You are a Gentleman and a Scholar and May All Your Sons Be Bishops ,
A Concerned Carer
from Cool Britannia

You have proved beyond all possible doubt that should any storm , earthquake , hurricane , typhoon , flood or fire ever threaten America , Bush and his vile co-horts should get their jackets off and get stuck in.
No wonder the Rest of the World pities America . Look at the prosperity in Africa whilst America sinks into a sea of poverty ! Look at the millions fleeing America to go and live in Cuba [Island of fun and freedom ] and the Democratic Republic of North Korea , away from the Washington dictatorship.
Look at the stability and equality in the countries of South America , whilst America changes governments every 4 years .
Look at Western Europe , united and happy , dancing round maypoles , singing praises to the Euro as they scatter their worthless dollars into the Seine and Rhine . Look what wonderful Socialist societies there were in Eastern Europe before the West undermined it all. All that silly stuff about an , 'Iron Curtain' and oppression . Sheer fantasy !
Look at Asia, with its democracy and prosperity and how America tries to copy such culture in dress , food , films .....etc.....
Yes , Mr. Moore , once again you have pointed the way towards a perfect society , free of all the Evils of Capitalism and its satraps. You are a Gentleman and a Scholar and May All Your Sons Be Bishops ,
A Concerned Carer
from Cool Britannia [/B][/QUOTE]

It's nice to see that you've got the hang of sarcasm, but I don't think the earlier quote was about America as a nation and what it has/has not done to the rest of the world. It is a criticism of the response to this natural disaster by Bush and his Neo-con puppet masters and why contingency plans failed or were not in place for something that had been predicted by a number of Americans. :-)

Well , actually , the intention was to show that America seems to go from strength to strength and seems to be a magnet , even with the ,"uncaring " Mr. Bush at the helm.
Some posters on here always seem to equate what goes wrong in America with Bush. Some posters earlier blamed him and a shadowy group of businessmen and power-brokers behind the 9 /11 attack. All politicians are slow or inefficient at times ; they rely on , "experts " for advice and they get it wrong too , sometimes . To wit . the storm we had in Britain [gales ] where the day before the Met. Office told us therewas nothing to worry about .
If Presidents had to take action on every , "experts " warnings , the country would be in turmoil. Imagine if New Orleans had been totally evacuated when the storm was first in the Gulf of Mexico , "in case "----then the storm veers off ------Bush would then have been criticised for panicking and wasting millions of dollars.
Also , what about the responsibility of the State organisations ? How could anyone know how big the disaster would be ? People were warned to leave , in fact , and some simply didn't and took a chance.
It's living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land to imagine that governments can wave a Magic Wand to avoid all disasters ; sometimes they can and do take action and sometimes they don't or can't. This happens all over the world.
Over and above that , I think people , in general give governments too much , "credit " in how countries are run. Example -----in Italy , since the war , the country has many times not had a government in power . In some cases Italy made better economic progress when there was no government . Just as the figureheads tend to get all the praise , wrongly , they also , wrongly , get all the brickbats .
This is particularly so in the case of Bush , as it was with Thatcher in Britain . The Left seems to keep having these fits of dripping hatred for certain people ------even Stalin and Hitler , Franco and Salazer never seemed to have been vilified so much vis-a -vis their country's actions or non-actions.
Do some people need a , "bogey man " like children who play , 'Big Bad Wolf ' ?

I agree Fareast

people in America who don't like Bush seem to blame Bush for everything that has gone wrong within the country. For the rest of the world he is a talisman for all that is wrong with the US. We have the same here with Blair to a lesser degree.

If people believe that by removing Bush then everything will be peachy they are sorely mistaken. It isn't Bush, or Regan or Bush Snr or Nixon. It is a whole ideology and way of thinking.

do we really think that Shrub sits at home with his Tonka computer coming up with all these ideas?

"It is a whole ideology and way of thinking." If thats what you think....but I dont think your oft-stated appraisal of the US as some kind of perpetual evil empire is fair. Considering the fact that the US is arguably the most powerful single entity in history, an strong adherence to corporate capitalism, the occasional military foray into unstable banana republics/dictatorships and a large output of reality TV dross, I dont think they have done the rest of us as badly as you make out.

No matter what they do, i think for some people the US can never win.

I didn't mean Americans as a hole but those in The heirarchy of the Republican party and in major postions of influence.

My God, Robbie, I actually agree with you!!!
Firing Bush will not change America. We seem to have the uncanny ability to elect presidents who are sometimes little more than fools or crooks. Just once in a while we seem to get it right. We did with FDR who took on the war and the depression with skill and humanity. Harry Truman said " The Buck stops here " but Nixon and Bush never seemed to get the message. It is the massive power of the people of each administration who define presidential actions today. The prez merely signs the checks.
Bush cannot be elected again. Only FDR was allowed to start a third term because of war conditions. So now in November of next year will bre the time we vote for the next guy or gal, and lord help us if we don't get it right.
Who would people on this forum like to see elected? I mean this quite seriously. I know you can't vote but it might give us some ideas. Please don't suggest Gerry Adams, or Adolf Hitler cos he's dead, and if he's not he's bloody old.
I'll say it again, America did not invent the reality TV show. It came from Europe. We merely made the prize money worthwhile.

Originally posted by buck
Who would people on this forum like to see elected? I mean this quite seriously. I know you can't vote but it might give us some ideas. Please don't suggest Gerry Adams, or Adolf Hitler cos he's dead, and if he's not he's bloody old.
I'll say it again, America did not invent the reality TV show. It came from Europe. We merely made the prize money worthwhile.

I'd have to say the obvious candidate for me would be Hillary Clinton - a bright, intelligent, attractive woman who appears to have more principles than the average politician. I think she'd be compassionate in the welfare arena, but would still have the strength of character needed to take any tough decisions that might need taking.

Having said that, as a strong, intelligent woman, she seems to have alienated quite a lot of people. If she runs against Condy Rice in a future Presidential election, which I think is likely, I can see it being a darn close-run thing.

What the world really needs is men and women of vision who can inspire us and truly lead us. People who see what needs to be done in the world, and who have the courage to do what is right. People like FDR, as you mentioned Buck. A great man indeed - we need to find the FDRs of today.

StarSparkle

apart from Walken :D

I like the look of Obama wesbite here (http://www.obamaforillinois.com)

he is obviously a bit new and fresh for this time round but many people have commented that Clinton/Obama would be a dream ticket. I'm not sure about Clinton though.

Obama looks good. The big problem here is America only ever seems to elect WASPs, except, of course, JFK who was catholic. It will take a hard shift in ideas for a black or a woman to be elected. I don't think its racism as such, more worry about the untried. I heard many people say thay would have voted for Colin Powell, but his wife would have none of it. If Condoleeza Rice wants to run she needs to disassociate herself with her current boss. In any case Hillary would beat her hands down.