I would like to know from a personal POV what peoples opinions and views on witchcraft are.

I had to bring it upo - just been dying to.

Moon Maiden

Dunno really. I suppose it's ok if the intentions are good. I'm happy living life as a muggle though.

I really don't know anything about it too be honest.

In the 70's, I was working in Algeria, (Desert) and I was reading the life story of Aleister Crowley.
One day, I fell asleep in the land rover - heading back to camp.
my arm was resting on the open window.
I received a wind burn in the shape of a perfect swastika. Eerie What.
Interesting book too. :evil:

Hey Moon Maiden it may be better if you explain to us your definition of Witchcraft.
As I do not know a lot about it either
Is it sacrificial killing of babies :lol:
or fortune telling????

I am quoting 2 extremes here just to see what your definition is.


Sounds a good post and I am sure it should get some interest.
Mikey

There are thousands of websites out there devoted to the subject of witchcraft with as many if not more communities of 'pagans' who constantly complain about being victimised because of mis information about their beliefs.

So I wanted to know what peoples views on it were. If someone says "i'm a witch" what is the judgement you make about the person. What images conjure up in your mind at the sound of the word?

I use the word judgement simply because in this case it is not a bad term. We all make assumptions on first appearances.

If you would like me to add later or in another thread just what the story is on witchcraft and paganism then I will be happy to oblige - but i would really like to know - seeing the differences of opinion already in this forum - what peoples opinions are on this.

Moon Maiden

In the late 80's I had a three year relationship with a lady who was convinced she was a witch - - - it didn't last for obvious reasons.
She would swing wedding rings, and mutter curses and I once heard her and her daughter consulting the ouigi board as to when I would die.
I was the one who had the black cat though - - she hated it. :evil:

I will do some research and come back to you with my informed judgement later.

However my initial reaction is as sidla - no problem if everything is legal and no harm is done. Without researching it seems to me just like an altermative religon.

I guess you will get pigoened holed because people don't know the full facts, and only hear bad stories, but surely there has to be some positives that we do not hear about.

I suppose that Mormons, Quakers etc etc also get victimised.

The word Witch sounds a bit sexy to me :lol: not some old hag with a crooked nose :lol:

anyway i will surf around and do some research and come back to you.

I read about it quite a bit in the 60 - 70's, I started from Dennis Wheatley novels.
I read Alaister Crowley, and have to say, whenever he was thrown out of where ever for his lates evil? acts - he always seemed to land on his feet.
Estates in Scotland - Italy - Penthouse in New York etc.
I read the "Malifice Malaficorum" the book of spells.
Rollo Ahmed was a prominent author too.
Never tried it though, but I could scare my so called witch partner by qquoting from old knowledge. :evil:

Yes Aleister Crowley landed on his feet?? Died old and lonely in a bedsit in Hastings - what a fitting ending to a 'sick' man.

:P

Knowledge is power Sheffco

Moon Maiden

That's where I got the book - - I was living in Hastings at the time - - wonder if it was his copy?
From the book he had a pretty wild life before he ended up in hastings.

Bit like myself - ccouncil flat in Halfway. :evil:

I am pleasantly supprised - the way most people go on - I would expect to see comments like "should all be burned at the stake" sort a thing.

Moon Maiden

I've muttered the odd prayer to the gods of nature now and again.
Have experienced the "witch doctor" belief in Africa.
Not much different than the symbolism of "Christian" ceremonies - - ancestors and accoutrements and things.
Burned at the stake? for what - someone who doesn't understand your personal view? :evil:

The word 'witch' conjures up positive images for me. If someone told me they were a witch, I'd think they were in touch with nature and probably pretty cool and interesting...

I lived with her for three years - - - I think the word should have been spelled with a "B".
She was interesting in a way though. Had loads of views on Karma, so I hope her expression of "what goes around comes around" comes true :lol:

Okaies. I am really supprised and really pleased that the stereotypical views of witches are now really imbedded in the minds of folk (so it appears)

The topic can get complex. But as simply as I can possibly explain.

Pagan and or Heathen are now used as umbrella terms for a large number of people who practise 'old' religions and beliefs. These include:
Wicca, Druidry, Hedgewitches, Shaman, Voodoo, Satanisim (very slightly), Freemasonary can be included depending on viewpoint.

Now you will have no doubt have heard the term "white witch" fact is that term is used to help try to get our point across. There is no white or black magic. There are dodgy groups of people out there who like to sacrifice chickens and use blood in their workings - but those are few and far between.

For the most part pagans/heathens follow the old gods. Take a look in mythology books and they will give you the gods of Greece, Rome, Norway, Celtic Britain, Aztec. There are other cultures beliefs incoporated for example Kali is an Asian goddess.
They worship these gods as a christian may worhship their god. They honour them with gifts (no not babies) ask them to help with magick spells and within their spiritual lives.
There are some parts of paganism that do not worship any deity and they tend to hold inanimate objects in high esteem - like the elements for example.

Anyway. If any of that is confusing or you have more questions - fire away - but not literally.

Moon Maiden

You appear to be a kind and gentle person - apart from your patriotic support of our troops.
I did as I said read a lot about witchcraft. - - Enough to think that with such a following there had to be "something in it!
Like politics and religion it covers a wide spectrum.
I was not joking when I said that I lived with a lady who practised witchcraft - - - personally I thought she was a bit evil and very maliscious.
Not at first though.
Her deceased husband had been a very good friend of mine - we worked together.
One contract he did - - In Mali - - north Africa - the crew worked through an area of an old and primitive tribe known as "Doguns" I may have spelled that wrong, but look up Mali on the web.
For disturbing the ancestral grounds (Seismic Exploration) the doguns cursed the crew.
Tony like most of us, collected artifacts etc. from wherever he was working, and he had brought home two woodcarvings (Masks)
The lady - my friend - believed that they were cursed.
Tony died horribly of cancer of the brain - the lady said that she could see little wizened creatures watching him.
She was convinced it was the curse working - - more people from that crew came to tragic ends.
I have visited African villages - with healers - and witchdoctors - and have seen some magical cave paintings in the middle of the Sahara desert.
I did my early army training at "Larkhill" a couple of miles from Stonhenge, long before it was a fenced and protected site.
I made love to a girl called Eve on the alter stone - - I never had much luck with marriages after that.
Maybe it was my own free and wandering life?
I have grown to respect anyones views, and know that there is no person that you cannot learn something from.
Your site looks beautiful, but I haven't ventured in.
Just trying to get my own story written so that people will know where I was and what lead me to Halfway. :lol:

personally I thought she was a bit evil and very maliscious.
Not at first though.
Her deceased husband had been a very good friend of mine - we worked together

Did that not tell you anything? Never trust a 'witch' with deceased husband.

I know of the Dogons. Currently linked with the Lizard conspiracy and David Icke :roll: .

The best thing about curses and hex' is that you don't actually have to do anything other than state that you have cursed someone. Chances are - despite how non believing someone may think they are - superstition gets the better of them and they create their own curse.

That is extremely open minded of you Sheff. Some of the stories I have heard from others make me sick.

Moon Maiden

Moon Maiden

Well one evening, she poured me a drink - - unusual - - there was a beautiful dinner - wine - candles - the whole caboodle.
I ate it - drank the wine - she poured me more scotch and we had conversation. She asked if I was tired, and I replied that I was enjoying the scotch - - I always did.
She was edgy and nervous, and suddenly leapt up and phoned an ambulance.
She had spread sleeping tablets over my dinner because she wanted to go out that night.
They checked me out, and I had a couple of more scotches and a wonderful night's sleep.
Now - - what kind of a witch was she?

Doodlebuggers are indestructable.

One in need of Psychiactric help and a straight jacket???

Moon Maiden

When I hear the word Witchcraft, I imagine evil something unexplainable out of the dark ages, born out of ignorant superstition and fear.

A lot of witches these days claim to be white witches! but is there such a thing, is it an attempt to be more acceptable to present day society?

Personally, I steer clear of such things because I suspect there may be some kind of satanic power involved, who knows what a really evil person can do?

There are stories of some people using their skill to cause accidents and bring about the death of a certain person targeted.

Is there anything in it? who knows! what do satanists get out of it? Is it a thrill? is it blood? is it sexual, I have enough problems without taking witchcraft up.

When I hear the word Witchcraft, I imagine evil something unexplainable out of the dark ages, born out of ignorant superstition and fear.

A lot of witches these days claim to be white witches! but is there such a thing, is it an attempt to be more acceptable to present day society?

Personally, I steer clear of such things because I suspect there may be some kind of satanic power involved, who knows what a really evil person can do?

There are stories of some people using their skill to cause accidents and bring about the death of a certain person targeted. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Is there anything in it? who knows! what do satanists get out of it? Is it a thrill? is it blood? is it sexual, I have enough problems without taking witchcraft up.

It's just another belief system, and subject to far sterner criticism than most. However, much of what is talked about in relation to witchcraft (eg care for the environment and a greater understanding of the world we live in etc) has a useful point behind it. It's just that I don't give any credence to the notion of spellcasting, potion-making, earth-communing, cursing, blessing, communicating with spirits or other associated practices.

Sorry, but I find it hard enough to take those who believe in god seriously.

Hi,

I think Hal, that you represent a lot of peoples fears and concerns over this.

With the term 'white witch' it IS an attempt to be more accepted into society simply because - to explain the concept behind good and bad - white and black is/can be a difficult concept to get over to someone regardless of belief system. So it is easier to save persecution and to show yourself as a white witch.

Personally I don't bother. There are 'good & bad' sikhs, muslims, jews, christians and catholics out there. They do not have to add 'white' or 'good' infront of their denomination to be accepted. So I don't see why I should sugar coat myself for anyone.

There is no sorry in this Waxy - we all have differing opinions and I asked for yours regardless of viewpoint.

I personally think there is a huge lack of education about witchcraft and it's associated faiths. Not that we should be out there trying to convert everyone, just trying to promote a more accurate portrayal rather than leaving it to the media.

I am in the middle of prepareing details of pagan festivals for my childrens school - so that they will not feel pushed out when they all study others faith systems.

Moon Maiden

Hello Moon Maiden,
The prejudice against witchcraft today I think, stems from the middle ages, when a hysterical minority decided that all witches had an evil power to cast spells and destroy peoples lives.

This was acted upon by the ruling classes who decided that the only way to combat this evil, was to burn alive all witches at the stake.

As I said, it was fired by ignorance, fear, and superstition and dealt with the only way they could think of at the time, now of course society is much more enlightened and tolerant thank goodness. :( :( :(

Originally posted by "halevan"

When I hear the word Witchcraft, I imagine evil something unexplainable out of the dark ages, born out of ignorant superstition and fear.

A lot of witches these days claim to be white witches! but is there such a thing, is it an attempt to be more acceptable to present day society?

Personally, I steer clear of such things because I suspect there may be some kind of satanic power involved, who knows what a really evil person can do?

There are stories of some people using their skill to cause accidents and bring about the death of a certain person targeted. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Is there anything in it? who knows! what do satanists get out of it? Is it a thrill? is it blood? is it sexual, I have enough problems without taking witchcraft up.


I think you are getting Satan and Pan mixed up - witches don't worship Satan, but the 'Old Gods' - some of them had horns so it was very easy for the Church to call witches Satanists. The only thing to come out of the Dark Ages is not evil, just superstition and fear!

If you beleive the lore then it's a pretty bad idea to go round cursing people, as anything you do by magic will turn back on you seven times.

Incidentally, I used to go out with a lad who claimed to be a descendant of Alice Nutter...

Do we have any other forumers who follow an alternative path through life?

Having experienced a Catholic education, and witnessed first hand how it can help distort peoples' views of fellow man, I am very interested in alternatives beliefs, particularly as I believe that we as people have lost alot of the skills practiced by our ancestors

It's also interesting to note how modern medecine is re-discovering some of the ancient cures hitherto condemned as 'old wives tales' or witchcraft - although nobody has ever disputed the value of such extracts as witchhazel ;)

Been learning more about witchcraft recently, and reading lots of books. I love the way the craft is all about being in tune with nature, using the symbols, signs and elements that we are given to bring things to us that we desire in life. I fully embrace the creed and plan to initiate myself some day, but I have two gorgeous little apprentices who use up all my energy at present but I have no negative connotations about it all and look forward to putting into practice what I have learned/am learning. I have a feeling I am a natural witch anyway with my leaning towards natural remedies and other things. Am currently working on getting my body in tune with the moon and her energies.

I have read Phyllis Curot's (sp?) books; what would you recommend MMaiden?

Lizzmobile/Lilith
PS. Love your pseudo :)

My old nan (passed on) had some strange ideas and a visit to her house was always interesting as a kid. She never did harm to anyone as far as I know so I suppose if the intention of the person is to do good then I've no problems with it. However the 'media' sacrafice, broomstick flying and turning up as a frog is a no-no.

:D

Sorry Lizz, Moon Maiden disappeared in January, so is unlikely to be able to respond to your direct question :(

There are a couple of other people on this site who may be able to provide pointers though ;)

Wicca is very interesting. A friend of mine knew a group of wiccas who danced naked on a rooftop during the full moon. (I guess several moons were present :D )

I'm not sure which group burns the candles for spells. Another friend burns black candles when she wants to get revenge. However, she says that by doing so it also harms her. Very strange... :suspect:

Hi Strix, yes we (me and hub) do not follow a mainstream lifepath. We have both decided that the church has no place in our lives and we live very decent lives, not rebelling against humanity for as much. We are good to people, honest etc., respect the earth and her gifts, we are bringing our children up to be in tune with nature and not the Argos catalogue. We are not being 'deviant' on purpose, as that is not the motivation, but we attain more satisfaction and results from the way we do things. Not sure that deviant is the right word tho' LOL!

I feel that there is so much disease in people today and feel that it might well be because we have lost our connection with nature. There is a rhythm to all things, all things have a place and a role, we are all interconnected. I really identify with this saying "the earth does not belong to us, we belong to the earth" and feel that if more people could embrace this philosophy, there would be less illness, disease and social discomfort. My 2-penneth.

M'of to hang upside down from a tree now. See ya. :hihi:

Originally posted by Strix
Do we have any other forumers who follow an alternative path through life?

Having experienced a Catholic education, and witnessed first hand how it can help distort peoples' views of fellow man, I am very interested in alternatives beliefs, particularly as I believe that we as people have lost alot of the skills practiced by our ancestors

It's also interesting to note how modern medecine is re-discovering some of the ancient cures hitherto condemned as 'old wives tales' or witchcraft - although nobody has ever disputed the value of such extracts as witchhazel ;)

you might be feeling an empathy with the old ways because they are 'home grown' as opposed to eastern religion,
most pagan paths accept the goddess and god as equal deity, which also seems more logical to many.
I have been a practicing pagan for around 20 years, although when i think back to childhood i realise i always was, despite the heavy christian teachings at school.
I loved the stories but could never relate the messages to my own life.

Thanks for that Strix. I always forget to check posting dates:( Anyone else read any bona fidewicca books?

Chicago, the wiccan creed says that whatever ill is done intentionally will come back to the puppertrator three fold. It takes a lot of bad energy to wreak ill , it's far easier to do good.
'An it harm none do what ye will' is part of the creed.

Dancing naked under the full moon; where's the party! No just kidding. It could have well been a celebration of the pleinitude of the earth's energies. The new moon is equally powerful, just in a different way. I prefer to align with the new moon. Had an ex-boyf (or two :heyhey:) cop in Paris who said that the number and severity of crimes committed always increased under the full moon. They would pull in extra manpower.

Candle buring is often present during spell casting. I would have thought most groups do it quite regularly.

Originally posted by Strix
....Moon Maiden disappeared in January
WOW! That's a nifty trick! Anyone see her do it? ... There may be something to this witchcraft after all then? ;)

Originally posted by lizzmobile
Candle buring is often present during spell casting. I would have thought most groups do it quite regularly.
Even Christians, jews...... 'cept they call it 'prayer' - but it's all 'mind over matter', just by different names ;)

I love Witches me I do! (http://www.welovecolors.com/images/kwp/witch_costume.jpg) :thumbsup: :love:

The trouble with witchcraft today is that you can search and search and still end up with no-one who knows what the hades they are talking about. People skip from fad to fad and faith to faith without expecting to have to put any hard work into it. And the ideals of the craft are polluted with rubbish like "An ye harm none" balh blah blah.

Think I'll be a pagan next week, and maybe a follower of Pan the week after, followed by a short journey with the egyptians. All a heap of bumf.

Fact is that in England - the lore has never been written down properly. It is passed by word of mouth, but before then there are checks and dounble checks to ensure only those worthwhile get to hear the real truths.

I have spent enough time with wannabes to know that few actually have any idea about the lore - the craft. Much easier to play at being witches.

And those who know nothing about the craft other than what they have managed to get out of a couple of wicca books really should not pack in their day jobs.

Takes hard work, trials, and tribulations, making mistakes, making enemies, and sticking by the person you know has the knowledge - if you are so fortunate as to find that person.

Covens - what a bit of fun! Show me a high priest or high priestess who knows anything and I will show you someone easily fooled.

Dragon

personally im really into witchcraft and stuff i think its everyone to their own

Please don't get the wrong idea lemonkirdy. I have gone through the whole rigmarole before finding myself. Oddly enough - the person who taught me so much some 30 years ago was also the one who told me where I would be today. Hmmmm! That can be confusing I suppose.

I am a bit beyond a witch ;)

The occult is great, but most is deceptive nonsense for the faint hearted. We do not want everyone knowing about the craft do we ;)

Dragon

Personally i am bored with the bitchcraft that goes on between practitioners of whatever path they choose to follow.
one upmanship, 'and i know more than you'...whats the point?, if someone wants to follow a creed which improves their lives and the environment around them it's got to be good.
ok they may never be adept at the more arcane aspects, few ever are.

people can find a lot of personal growth through paganism.
If they stick with it and keep looking and are prepared they may be lucky enough to have that teacher come into their lives,

as you say dragon it's not all "an ye harm none" it's also 'red in tooth and claw' not everyone can handle that so it's best most stick to 'published paths' but it's all good.

Then there are the people who are 'born with it' ;)

There's some strange things that happen within my family, that we all just take for granted. None of it is ever named or even referred to much - but if you stop and think about it too long, it makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck :suspect:

Originally posted by Strix
Then there are the people who are 'born with it' ;)

There's some strange things that happen within my family, that we all just take for granted. None of it is ever named or even referred to much - but if you stop and think about it too long, it makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck :suspect:

It's true strix and it's a pity some of the people who are born with it rarely want 'it'.
I think they find a conflict of feelings between what they are taught ie christian ways and what they feel inside.
In the more remote islands of Scotland and parts of ireland 'witchcraft' or pagan ways are acknowledged by catholic priests.
obviously realising the old ways are still part of rural life.

We were in France and Mary who owned the place where we were staying could not grow Parsly.
Isaid as a fairly competnt gardener said put the seeds into a poly bag and transplant into a tray on your windowsill.

Ken said fetch 12 virgins from the village and scatter the seed at midnight while the virgins dance naked round the plot, all the tine waving a branch of the olive tree muttering incantations.
Guess who's Parsley grew.

We were a bit short on virgins.

hazel

I cant really say too much on the subject except to say I have a friend who is a pagan and she seems perfectly normal to me.
I am somewhat curious though about the subject though and would like to know more.

Tell us when to laugh at that one Hazel. We will wait til you get to the punch line I promise.

You are not born with an ability to do witchcraft. Someone watches too much charmed. What you may have is psychic ability, and/or knowledge from previous generation witches who may be in your bloodline.

Witchcraft is a wholly British Institution so hardly surprising some people treat it like its a disease.

There are plenty of books out there for anyone interested. Do not expect much though. You can rarely find anything that more than hints at the craft, and those that may do so are more than a little ridiculed. A fairly interesting one is "The Mysteries of Britain" by Lewis Spence, but be warned - the man may have you believing in something British by the time you are done.

Dragon

I did not mean to poke fun at your ideas as I have a healthy respect for them. I have always had a sort of perceptiveness that borders on the side of wirchcraft.
My ex said I was a witch but I think it is an inner awarenesss of others not wirchcraft
Sorry if my sense of humour offended.

hazel

So how do you get a broomstick to fly?
And doesn't it chaff your undercarriage terribly? :gag:


p.s, How do you like your Stake? :hihi:

There is a special ointment to use for broomstick flying Don. Stops pretty much everything if used properly.

Glying broomsticks - hmmmm - when I was a lad they made proper besoms. those things were built to last. You could get 20 000 on the clock easy.

These days we have beings who will help transport us from one place to another in the blink of an eye so the old form of transport is dead - except for collectors of course.

Did not quite get the steak bit matey. You getting confused with vampire legend. Don't get me started on that. Jeze!

Anytime you feel like talking/arguing about the Craft - you know where to find me.

Dragon

Hi Moonmaiden,

I find witchcraft absolutely fascinating. I have a few books on the subject, so I've read up on it's history and practices, a lot of which seem to make more sense to me than many other religions out there.

I particularly like the way the religion works alongside the earth and seasons. I also like the emphaisis on finding your own path to the gods, goddesses and your own spitituality instead of having a load of rules and dogma shoved down your throat.

I used to work as a reporter for a popular Sheffield puplication (ho hum!) and I once did an interview with Patricia Crowther for what was supposed to be a light-hearted feature on the summer solstace. After the article was published I actually recieved hate male from some Christian fanatics telling me I'm going to burn in the firey flames of hell for fraternising with the children of satan!!! :roll:

Luckily I just found the threats highly amusing. On a more serious note though, I really hate the way some religious folk are so petrified of people with different religious beliefs. I have no problem with any religion, but I objects to fanatics from various sects who think they are out to save the souls of non-believers!!!!

Personally, I see no harm in believing whatever you want to believe as long as it makes you happy, enhances your life and does nothing to hinder or damage the lives of others. As the pagen saying goes...

"an it harmeth none, do what thou wilst"

Or something like that anyway! :thumbsup:

While I'm no expert on the matter, my own opinion on Witchcraft is thus ...

A tradition of methodology for developing (intrinsic personal) power (or energy) and an understanding of the workings of both yourself and the universe at large. Developing your ability to work with and direct energies to our own will, energies both within ourselves and 'out there'.

In short, connecting with energies 'out there' and shaping, directing them to your own will.

:cool: I follow the Pegan religion, grow and use herbs for medicinal purposes, live by the cycles of the moon.
Yes, I do read tarot and also own a crystal ball, would never use spells or magic in the wrong way though.
Apart from once, against a particullarly horrid ex...it worked but would never do it again.

I suppose that makes me "A Witch" but I'm not old n haggered, just kind sensitive and care lots about people and animals.

I don't believe in magic/witchcraft, full stop, but if other people want to believe in it (or anything else realy) that fine by me.

Originally posted by bigredbox
[BApart from once, against a particullarly horrid ex...it worked but would never do it again.
[/B]

What did you do to him/her?

Maybe you should all try Redclover tea, I drink no end, seems to have an anti-aging quality but thats prob just wishfull thinking.

Well it took a wax candle, some nail clippings " YUK" some of his hair and a photo of him.
Was ultra mad at time you understand! lying cheating scum bag!
Put a curse on him, then around two weeks later, I learned off one of his collegues he'd lost his job and was in hospital being treated for a rare, previously undiagnosed kidney complaint.

Not saying I had anything to do with it but at time it felt good, just feel sorry for the poor bugger now.

I have no great interest in Witchcraft , but I accept that England has a pagan past and that many beliefs and rituals have been either labelled as 'Satanism' or incorporated into Judeo-Christianity [the festivals of Yule and Eostre, for example]. I regard the practice of Wicca as generally harmless, unless vulnerable types open to trait anxieties, phobias and obsessions are indoctrinated. Then again, one could say the very same about many religions including Christianity in the case of some of its 'fundamentalist' interpretations.

Many of the medical ideas that stem from so-called pagan 'wise-women' were apropriated by the medical establishment over centuries throughout Europe. The 'witch craze', in which perfectly ' innocent' women who did not fit the stereotypes of 'decent' women in the culture of their day were labelled as 'witches' and murdered on bonfires is a shameful episode in European history. Perhaps we should remember this when ignorant oafs label Wiccans as diabolists. They are plainly nothing of the sort. Their rituals, quaint, strange and even frightening to the majority are echoes from the pre-Christian past. Remember, the worship of Odin/ Woden was the English religion before tales of Christ and Calvary reached these islands.

Let the Wiccans and other pagans practice their religions [for that is what they are] in peace. There is room for them in a humane society. Frankly, there are worse people in the major political parties, and in the major religions. Good luck to them.

We ought to remember also that christian festivals mask previous pagan festivals and churches where usually built on pre-christian sites of worship.well dressings and yesterdays horn dance( now adopted by the church) are all from our ancient past.
http://www.abbotsbromley.com/horndance.htm

Thats right.

Even the idea of tinsel etc on xmas tree's comes from ancient pegan ritual. I'm not ashamed to state I follow nature and the seasons rather than believe in something that can't be proven.
How many times do we here "if there WAS a GOD, then why would he let all this nasty stuff happen to mankind"
Big Bang theory is more of a fact than the creation of this planet by a single hand over seven days.

We all find peace in the world, in our own way and each to his/her own regarding belief. Whatever suits.

Originally posted by bigredbox
Well it took a wax candle, some nail clippings " YUK" some of his hair and a photo of him.
Was ultra mad at time you understand! lying cheating scum bag!
Put a curse on him, then around two weeks later, I learned off one of his collegues he'd lost his job and was in hospital being treated for a rare, previously undiagnosed kidney complaint.

Not saying I had anything to do with it but at time it felt good, just feel sorry for the poor bugger now.

Loving it bigredbox! :thumbsup: But how did you get your hands on his toes clippings?

How cool !!! ... retribution ... now there's a sign of an enlightened being ...

I wonder how many people who have a closed mind towards paganism in general read their horoscopes or have superstitions etc.
I know these points have been done to death with people who are into paganism in it's various forms but to those who may think they have no link with the past it can show in small ways.
a sort of flash back to an ancient culture.

Easy, either round his chair the dirty slimball or from hoova bag, the hair bit was easy too cos he had to have crew cut for work and I had the Waahl clippers....lol
This was years ago mind, never done anything since, cos I'm a good girl really.

Only thing I do now, is herbs...never took any tablets for years not even a para or an asprin.

Originally posted by bigredbox
Only thing I do now, is herbs...never took any tablets for years not even a para or an asprin.

Have you tried an extract of willowbark for headaches?

Originally posted by Jamie
How cool !!! ... retribution ... now there's a sign of an enlightened being ...

Indeed.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Have you tried an extract of willowbark for headaches

Don't forget meadowsweet.

http://www.purplesage.org.uk/profiles/meadowsweet.htm

It always works for me but i use the root (tastes like germaline)
I'm getting deja vu, sure i've mentioned this before

No I use Fever few leaf tea, lavender and valarian depends on type of headache, wether it be stress related or migrain.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Indeed.

Further more ...

Those who know, don't talk about it (or have no need to do so).

Those who don't know, are forever spouting crap.

Originally posted by Jamie
Further more ...

Those who know, don't talk about it (or have no need to do so).

Those who don't know, are forever spouting crap.

as it's a thread asking for views and opinions that's what we are doing or can't you grasp that simple fact

Originally posted by bigredbox
Easy, either round his chair the dirty slimball or from hoova bag, the hair bit was easy too cos he had to have crew cut for work and I had the Waahl clippers....lol
This was years ago mind, never done anything since, cos I'm a good girl really.

Only thing I do now, is herbs...never took any tablets for years not even a para or an asprin.

Know any herbs for 'lady pains' bigredbox? I try to stear clear of drugs too, but once a month I have to dose up!

Originally posted by 40summat
as it's a thread asking for views and opinions that's what we are doing or can't you grasp that simple fact

Yes of course it is, and I just did express a viewpoint (see my previous post).

And I try to 'grasp' as little as possible ...

Originally posted by Jamie
And I try to 'grasp' as little as possible ...

so i see

AW.....let's not go off thread, this was a discusion re: witch craft and the like.
Just because some folk believe in herbs rather than bother the doc, mind you I would def go to GP if there was something serious.

All this hebal use DOES NOT automatically mean that I'm a Witch and I'm not "religious" in what I believe.
It does mean though that, I'm a country lass at heart and these remedies have been believed in for years.
I'm quite open minded, if it works then fine, if it does'nt then I'll try something else. Many modern day medicine is based on herbs.
Power of the mind is key.

I definitely DONT go round saying "hey, I'm A WITCH" and cackle like a deranged old woman. Not got any warts either lol.
I think a witch is someone, who folk are scared of, don't understand and therefore cast out because of they're own views.
Can just see hospital staff running a mile if I stated my religion as "witch" I prefer non defined.

Originally posted by 40summat
so i see

I hope you do :)

Yes JBEE,

Try evening primrose oil, capsuals. Chamomile tea three times a day or raspberry leaf tea.
Know where your coming from on that one. What a pain being a woman.

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
Yes Aleister Crowley landed on his feet?? Died old and lonely in a bedsit in Hastings - what a fitting ending to a 'sick' man.

:P

Knowledge is power Sheffco

Moon Maiden moonmaiden aleister crowley was one of the most missunderstood occultists of this and the last century,may i suggest you read ...the star in the west ...by captain fuller...it might give you some insight into understanding agreat magician.....magick is the soul using imagination to turn on and use psychic energy....sex can be black magic...sex is mostly black magic[K]because it possesses you.not you it. sex can obsesss you to the piont of slavery.....true of the sexualy sick christian,obessesd by guilt .the christian sex slave thinks only of others lusts and turns sexual denial into an enslaving sexual virtue ====blackmagic[k]....................light the flame bright the fire .......red is the color of desire....?6669

Originally posted by deadgobby
... sex is mostly black magic[K]because it possesses you.not you it. ... Unless you're a Scorpio ;)

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
I would like to know from a personal POV what peoples opinions and views on witchcraft are.

I had to bring it upo - just been dying to.

Moon Maiden

The word Witch to me conjures up visions of someone with frightening powers, who should be avoided at all costs, however, many years ago I was introduced to a Warlock by Pat Crowther, (without meeting either of them) we wrote and telephoned each other and he treat me for chronic arthritis of the spine.

He was the only one person who took all my pain away, during the time he was treating me, after I had been to healers, evangelists, faith healers, people praying in tongues over me and laying on of hands in name of Christ, did me no good at all, I still beleive there are some people who have got the power to heal.

Originally posted by bigredbox
Yes JBEE,

Try evening primrose oil, capsuals. Chamomile tea three times a day or raspberry leaf tea.
Know where your coming from on that one. What a pain being a woman.

Well, I already take evening primrose. But I like both rasberry leaf and chamomile tea, I'd just never considered them to be theraputic, so I'll try that! Thanks :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
I would like to know from a personal POV what peoples opinions and views on witchcraft are.

I had to bring it upo - just been dying to.

Moon Maiden [ whichcraft =women wisdom]...whichcraft as areligion was created by the roman catholic+protestant churches out of fear!!!!!!.....women created civilisation[[[man is about to destroy it]] women out of her needs and intuition created the city, aplace of stability a sophistication ;it was her psyhic womb,aware of her own seeding [birth] mechanism intuition told her of natures seasons. astrommony,astrology [occult]had there beginings with her

Originally posted by halevan
The word Witch to me conjures up visions of someone with frightening powers, who should be avoided at all costs, however, many years ago I was introduced to a Warlock by Pat Crowther, (without meeting either of them) we wrote and telephoned each other and he treat me for chronic arthritis of the spine.

He was the only one person who took all my pain away, during the time he was treating me, after I had been to healers, evangelists, faith healers, people praying in tongues over me and laying on of hands in name of Christ, did me no good at all, I still beleive there are some people who have got the power to heal.

There are two types of magic, black magic and white magic (very original i know) black magic is the sort which inflicts bad things on others, but it comes back to you worse, and white magic is the healing magic and to keep people safe etc.

Originally posted by deadgobby
[ whichcraft =women wisdom]...whichcraft as areligion was created by the roman catholic+protestant churches out of fear!!!!!!.....women created civilisation[[[man is about to destroy it]] women out of her needs and intuition created the city, aplace of stability a sophistication ;it was her psyhic womb,aware of her own seeding [birth] mechanism intuition told her of natures seasons. astrommony,astrology [occult]had there beginings with her

Not actually true so perhaps you ought to broaden the scope of books that you get your information from. Toman catholic and protestant churches had nothing to do with witches until Constantine.

Witch is a relatively modern term widely used as a description of a path some of us choose to follow. The original word is lost in time, but Druid comes pretty close. Howver - in this day and age we have a completely different concept of what a druid is as to what it actually was.

The rest of your post is a complete rant in my opinion. And love the bit about men about to destroy civilisation. Bhind every powerful man is a more powerful woman. Look through history.

Dragon

Just a quick question about magic (magick/majyk/mr majestyk etc).

Why don't those who claim to be the true Guardians Of The Ancient Law share their knowledge and abilities with us all, instead of maintaining a silly cloak of mystery about their secretive shoulders? It's not as if you'd be burnt at the stake now, is it? Science would benefit from such new teachings.

Surely it's not because you are the Guardians Of The Secret Knowledge and that lesser mortals must never be privvy? It smacks a little of Dungeons and Dragons and pompous self importance. Can anyone please explain?

Originally posted by 40summat
Don't forget meadowsweet.

http://www.purplesage.org.uk/profiles/meadowsweet.htm

It always works for me but i use the root (tastes like germaline)

I'm getting deja vu, sure i've mentioned this before

I'm thinking more of plant extracts that demonstrate the intended effect strongly under double blind controls. e.g. Willow bark extract a.k.a acetylsalicylic acid. It's a good antipyretic and anti-inflammatory agent too. Thankfully it's easily synthesised and mass produced.

If Witchcraft is the profound acceptance of the incalculable intricacy and beauty of the nature of the universe, and an intuitive grasp of it's laws and patterns, then it is hard to criticise what may even be a genuine oral tradition, or even a relatively modern pantheistic confection, as it is a relatively non-interventionist creed.

But when descriptions of witchcraft depart from homely descriptions of natural truths, or plant/animal knowledge, and meander into accounts of curses, hints at arcane higher orders of truth beyond the mundane, and all that old crud, then it becomes fodder for the credulous. And as PT Barnum observed, there is never a shortage.

And the credulous include a large number of pic'n'mix new agers, as well as the genuinely insane, the misguided, and the hard of thinking.

And when self identifying witches talk of retribution by 'witchy' means, the implicit statement is that they feel themselves both above and beyond the law, and in many ways superior to the rest of humanity - which in itself is no way to engender respect, admiration or even tolerance.

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
I would like to know from a personal POV what peoples opinions and views on witchcraft are.

I had to bring it upo - just been dying to.

Moon Maiden

I thought all these practitioners had been either drowned in ducking stools or burned at the stake, 'bout time for another spanish inquistion with full on witch detectors! at least now they can be rehabilitated by tagging and councilling! That's progress in it!

Ant,
I fully agree with you re certain self-appointed gurus of the occult. If the Druids and Rosicrucians etc have something 'crucial' to share, why not share it? Funny isn't it, how these self-appointed gurus and keepers of occult wisdom never seem able to share their information. Anything would do, just a sliver. It wouldn't have to change the price of tomatoes, just a snippet. Getting it off their chests might help too. It is no good bottling things up. If we are about to enter a dark age of evil that will last a million years, we should be told. At least then we could prepare for it a bit.

Mind you, it's not just the Druids. I hate those people who advertise in 'New Age' magazines, giving themselves strings of letters after their names [utterly meaningless, worthless ' qualifications'], and calling themselves things like, 'Sebastian Raven, Crystal Therapist and Ryiki Master', or 'Charlotte Rainbow, Past Life Regression and Angels specialist' etc. They charge quite large sums of money for their services and claim to be able to see everybody's 'aura', align everyone's 'chakras', contact our 'Guardian Angels' [who are always deceased Cherokees, never long-dead Doncaster binmen] etc. They can be encountered at craftfairs too, wearing revolting 1970s-style cheesecloth shirts, hair like hayricks, bearing beatific smiles. These are the beggars who should be burned at the stake!

OK you guys all better be really careful not to upset anyone with a pointy hat and a wand.

The first rule of witch-club ... is you don't talk about witch-club.
The second rule of witch-club ... yadda yadda yadda ...

(or we're gonna curse you with our secret ability to cast spells bla bla bla)

Don't get me wrong ... it's not that more subtler layers of the universe exist behond the 'knowable' ... they do ... but the way some people intentionally go around calling themselves 'witch' just to create a reaction in people is quite frankly ... pitiful ... an ego crying out for attention ... 'look at me'.

Those with real power have no need to label themselves anything and they certainly don't go about advertising their ability.

They also know that the energy they project will also affect themselves ... so naturally they don't go around cursing people.

Originally posted by Jamie
OK you guys all better be really careful not to upset anyone with a pointy hat and a wand.

The first rule of witch-club ... is you don't talk about witch-club.
The second rule of witch-club ... yadda yadda yadda ...

(or we're gonna curse you with our secret ability to cast spells bla bla bla)

Don't get me wrong ... it's not that more subtler layers of the universe exist behond the 'knowable' ... they do ... but the way some people intentionally go around calling themselves 'witch' just to create a reaction in people is quite frankly ... pitiful ... an ego crying out for attention ... 'look at me'.

Those with real power have no need to label themselves anything and they certainly don't go about advertising their ability.

They also know that the energy they project will also affect themselves ... so naturally they don't go around cursing people.




Yeah yeah yeah
but do they float or do they sink?

Okay - points - first - the witch club. Witches are willing to talk about the craft and themselves. It is wiccans and covens who refuse, plus those who do not know much at all who want to keep witchcraft secretive as they do not want to tell the wonderful secrets they do not know.

Then you get those supposed witches whose only aim in life is to sell as many books on fluffy propoganda as they possibly can, with stupid love spells (which are not allowed btw) using a pink candle and a fluffy toy!

Why should the druid share anything with you? So you can scorn their beliefs regardless of their worth. Aside from that - for a druid or magik user to talk about the real craft to most would be like trying to explain quantum theory to a three year old.

Of course witches curse others. The point about anything negative coming round back at them is poppycock. Everything you do or do not do will affect someone adversely so we should all be suffering in hell. Perhaps we are?

Drowned using ducking stools or burnt at the stake - both show how fact has been replaced by fantasy. It was very rare for either to be used to try a witch. Supposed witches were hanged not burnt at the stake, except in a very few rare cases. And in actual fact - few witches had anything at all done to them because they were witches and unlikely to get caught in the first place.

To show there are some willing to 'break the apparent rules' what kind of sliver are you interested in knowing? If I can I will help out there.

We are not that secretive. On the contrary - those involved in the craft know about our british heritage and wish to preserve our beliefs by sharing where there are those willing to listen. I do not mean brainwashing or converting or such - but just talking or demonstrating.

We delve beyond magik and touch upon all the sciences as well in a constant challenge to find proof. Proof of everything and of anything. If you want an in depth conversation about quantum or singularities, time and relativity, plant lore, ancient ways, the craft - talk to a witch.

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon
We delve beyond magik and touch upon all the sciences as well in a constant challenge to find proof. Proof of everything and of anything. If you want an in depth conversation about quantum or singularities, time and relativity, plant lore, ancient ways, the craft - talk to a witch.

Dragon

I do!

Particularly about the copenhagen interpretation of quantum uncertainty, and how this relates to the human perception of the flow of time (if at all).

Chaos theory is a killer when mixed in with the rest. Some of the dicussions concerning possabilities and alternate realities covering every possability which would exclude chaos unless we concentrate on the awareness as being the only thing that is outside time and thus not subject to its whims can get really fascinating.

Once you start talking about one aspect of magik, you soon find yourself dragged into so many other ideas and theories, practices and beliefs it is amazing. Well - it is for me anyhow ;)

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon
Why should the druid share anything with you? So you can scorn their beliefs regardless of their worth. Aside from that - for a druid or magik user to talk about the real craft to most would be like trying to explain quantum theory to a three year old.

Do you want to talk about the real craft Dragon? If so, perhaps it will help us 3 year olds, if you use appropriate language and terminology that we can more easily relate to?

Otherwise, there is a danger that your kind come across as seeking to confuse or frighten the general populus with talk of your mystical 'science'.

Of course, the druid, or any other spiritually developed person, whatever tradition, should only share when it feels appropriate to do so!

Originally posted by Dragon
Of course witches curse others. The point about anything negative coming round back at them is poppycock. Everything you do or do not do will affect someone adversely so we should all be suffering in hell. Perhaps we are?

Now this I find most interesting ...

Are you claiming to have found a way to circumvent the cause-effect relationship between your actions (albeit the subtle action of your intent) and the reaction you get from the universe?

If so, please share it with us all.

As for suffering in hell ...

Surely we create our own heaven or hell?

Originally posted by Dragon
We are not that secretive.

Then please, don't be.

I feel, you'd be doing us all (yourself included) a service, if you related what your practice means to you personally, in more real human terms that we can all relate to, and dropped the mumbo jumbo.

Speaking of curses, in just reminds me of a time whilst working on the tram.
Gypsy woman gets on, shows pass but it's not hers, conductor rumbles the scam and she promptly put a curse on him.
The very next week, the poor bloke falls and breaks his arm.

OOOOOH spooky! Was it just fate, or did she really have something to do with it?:suspect:

Originally posted by timo
Ant,
I fully agree with you re certain self-appointed gurus of the occult. If the Druids and Rosicrucians etc have something 'crucial' to share, why not share it? Funny isn't it, how these self-appointed gurus and keepers of occult wisdom never seem able to share their information. Anything would do, just a sliver. It wouldn't have to change the price of tomatoes, just a snippet. Getting it off their chests might help too. It is no good bottling things up. If we are about to enter a dark age of evil that will last a million years, we should be told. At least then we could prepare for it a bit.

Mind you, it's not just the Druids. I hate those people who advertise in 'New Age' magazines, giving themselves strings of letters after their names [utterly meaningless, worthless ' qualifications'], and calling themselves things like, 'Sebastian Raven, Crystal Therapist and Ryiki Master', or 'Charlotte Rainbow, Past Life Regression and Angels specialist' etc. They charge quite large sums of money for their services and claim to be able to see everybody's 'aura', align everyone's 'chakras', contact our 'Guardian Angels' [who are always deceased Cherokees, never long-dead Doncaster binmen] etc. They can be encountered at craftfairs too, wearing revolting 1970s-style cheesecloth shirts, hair like hayricks, bearing beatific smiles. These are the beggars who should be burned at the stake! thats very good insightful ,you made me laugh ,my complements timo

Originally posted by Dragon
It is wiccans and covens who refuse

I've never belonged to a coven but do consider myself a Wiccan and I don't refuse to talk to people about my religion. If they want to know I'll answer every question that I'm able to (there are still some things I'm trying to figure out!).

Then again, I don't exactly start conversations about it, I don't really see the point. My Christian friends don't start telling me about Jesus when we are down the pub! If people want to know I'll have a chat with them but I don't really see what the big fuss is. I just follow an "alternative" religion and nomatter what other people's opinions on it may be, it enriches my life and makes me a much nicer person to be around. I don't see any harm in that :D

I am trying to deal with ten things at once here Jamie so please try to bear with me while I get round to as much as possible. My post before last answered many of the points raised, or so I thought, only to find more questions.

My comment concerning explainning quantum theory to a 3 year old was not so much to put the forum members down, but to describe the gap between what they think is witchcraft and what may actually be witchcraft. Some of the previous comments by other posters prove the scope of knowledge being used in the witchcraft debate as being rather limited. That is - witches hanged or even caught during the witch trials, and witches pertaining to females and females being the all wise and all powerful etc sort of rubbish.

To go into the craft in any large part would take up some considerable time, and would bore many of those not interested. It is always easy to ridicule something that is not understood to make a person seem better in the eyes of those who look upto them.

Your comment about action and reaction, Jamie, is a display of the limitations you place upon what is and what we may believe to be. It all depends on your perspective, and if you like - then yes - I do go against the generally accepted principle that if you give something bad then you get something bad back. This is a wrongful oversimplification of a theory. The energy it takes to cause something to happen requires an opposite reaction but not necessarily of like. So - if you cast a spell to break someone's leg - just for a silly example - you should not expect your own leg to be broken in payback. That is just silly.

If I throw a dart at someones head it does not mean it must happen that someone throws a dart at my head at some time. The reaction could be many things - and it is upto the magik user to decide what that will be.

I could go on and on - but rather than do that - what is it you would like to know specifically and I will see what I can do.

Dragon

Dragon, this paragraph interests me: Why should the druid share anything with you? So you can scorn their beliefs regardless of their worth. Aside from that - for a druid or magik user to talk about the real craft to most would be like trying to explain quantum theory to a three year old.

I presume that you label yourself as a druid? I have no desire to learn anything of druidic beliefs, the question (which is an open one not one directed at you in particular) was one of abilities and the reasoning behind hiding them. If a witch, druid, shaman or whoever, possesses any supernatural abilities, this would be of tremendous interest to the scientific community, and indeed society in general. It would be wonderful news. I'm not asking you to explain the processes at the moment, simply explain why this nonsensical veil of secrecy has to be adopted. It's a little insulting to simply imply I'd be too thick to understand about your "real craft". I'm sure many millions of people would be interested in your "craft" if it were shown that there was just one tiny grain of truth in the veiled hints you make that the physical world could be changed by utilising your techniques.

Could you curse me? Could you cause me to contract a common cold this weekend as evidence? What exactly is the extent of your cursing abilities?

Originally posted by Ant
... I'm not asking you to explain the processes at the moment, simply explain why this nonsensical veil of secrecy has to be adopted.

Perhaps one reason for this secrecy, is that, it is simply not a prudent investment, explaining such things to people, esp. people who are not emotionally and spiritually able to comprehend the true meaning of what's being explained (and who would just waste your time and energy arguing about it).

Perhaps another reason, is that some individuals are basically on an ego trip, and just want to impress you.

Originally posted by Dragon
I am trying to deal with ten things at once here Jamie.

Maybe some cans of worms are best left unopened eh? (although I do suspect you just can't help yourself when it comes to opening things!!).

I would imagine energy is energy, and there's no good or bad in it, 'good energy' or 'bad energy' it's just context dependent, eg: for a fish, water = good, air = bad, but for a bird, air = good, water = bad (not the best example because a bird will drink water, but then again, it can also drown in it).

You may throw a dart at someone's head, but some people will catch that energy as anything they wish to, as a flower for example, or as anything that suits their purpose. Infact some people will catch that energy before you even transmit it, and the game has ended before it's even started. I would imagine it's all a matter of how adept you are at dealing with energy?

Not that I know anything about anything you understand, I'm just a baby, and know nothing about nothing, apart from this one thing, it's bed time and I'm knackered, so goodnight.

Firstly - I am not a modern day druid. It is unfortunate that the title druid has been changed and messed about with so as to encompass anyone who wears a robe and talks to trees. You list Druid, shaman, witch, and such but originally they were all one thing and in time that one thing became the druid. So - a shaman was a druid, a witch was a druid, a seer was a druid and so on.

Why the veil of secrecy? So many reasons, and least of all is that you would not understand. That was just the easiest example I could find at the time. On the contrary - magik is so simple even a child can understand it.

Some people who acquire a certain amount of knowledge become in need of psychiatric treatment. They believe themselves to be gods or similar. I have known really clever people go off the rails once they have become involved. This is not the fault of magik - it is their inability to deal with it.

I love the continual references to science. Tis so amusing. You can explain so much with science, but not why. Magik does not even try to explain - it just does.

You think that reading a few books, listening to a few lectures, dabbling a little gives you the right to make claims about being a witch? Poppycock. Being a witch means you stick to a few rules and live your life in a particular way. Those rules are the easiest ones a person can break - such as the rule about truth. Do you realise how difficult it is not to lie?

A group of people decided that before anyone learns too much concerning magik they have to effectively prove themselves - hence initiations. But initiations are not proof to anyone other than the person being initiated, for instance. The proof comes in many other forms and unfortunately most fail.

There are many works available to those who wish to study the craft - but there is no magik in the written word. Books are great for ideas concerning magik but contain no magik themselves. The art is learning to read what is meant to be spoken.

Sorry about rambling on. You got me starrted on my favourite topic. Thanks ;)

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon
You think that reading a few books, listening to a few lectures, dabbling a little gives you the right to make claims about being a witch? Poppycock. Being a witch means you stick to a few rules and live your life in a particular way.
Dragon

I think the only magik going on in this thread at the moment Dragon is that you seemed to be full of hot air!!!

Who made you the grand authority on this? And who are you to start laying down the law on who can and cannot call themselves a witch? I have an extremely amusing image of you at the moment, standing at the gates of witch-heaven like a messiah of the craft and saying "poppycock" to all those you consider do not make the grade!

(And yes, I do know there's no such thing as witch heaven, before you get another bee in your bonnet!)

But I digress. Everyone is entitled to their opinons, especially on something as abstract as religion, so I respect yours. But as this is a discussion forum I am going to exercise my right to argue against it...

My opinion is that religion - any religion - should be a very personal thing. It is essentially about spirituality and an individual's relationship with the powers that be. Just because somebody doesn't meet your standards of what a wiccan, druid or witch SHOULD be, doesn't mean that that person hasn't found their own path to the gods or spiritual enlightenment.

I think you should have a little more respect for your fellow human beings and their beliefs, rather than getting so preoccupied at trying to prove to us all (or maybe to yourself???) that you're a better and more knowledgable student of the craft than others.

Oh yeah, and one more thing, all this twaddle about keeping the secrets and telling us we wouldn't understand anyway is, quite frankly, poppycock. You are acting like one of those annoying children that go around chanting "I know something you don't know" in silly high-pitched voices. Generally the child in question doesn't actually know that much after all. Those who are party to real secrets tend not to brag about them.


Phew. ****Sits back and waits to be cursed****

Oooooh JBee, you're lovely when you're all fired up!

I'm going to gracefully bow out of this thread now, but before I do I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions, you've all given my plenty of food for thought and I've had my fill.

One final idea I'd like to put forward is this ...

No one is wholey selfish, and no one is wholey selfless.

The path of selflessness, to lose one's small ego self, and thereby engage the 'powers that be' to nurture and guide you, I think has a lot going for it (please substitute 'powers that be' for whatever terminoligy you feel most happy with).

I'm certainly not trying to say I know best, because I know I don't. I also know there are people in this world who are infinitly wiser and more adept than I am, and it's been my good fortune to come across one or two.

*smiling*

Jamie.

Originally posted by Jamie
Oooooh JBee, you're lovely when you're all fired up!


Awww, shucks. :blush: Thanks Jamie! :P

I have a question for Moon Maiden....

I've just read on another thread that you have kids. Do you bring them up as wiccans too? And is their father a wiccan?

Just curious. Please don't answer if you find that too personal.

Originally posted by Ant
If a witch, druid, shaman or whoever, possesses any supernatural abilities, this would be of tremendous interest to the scientific community, and indeed society in general.

To answer this part of your question Ant I assume you have heard of 6th sense or intuition? It is a skill which is very closely linked with imagination. Most people are born with an intuitive streak (sometimes called an inner voice) but as we grow through childhood society and teaching methods insist we rely on the traditional 'five' senses neglecting the other less obvious ones.

There are many scientifically documented cases where perfectly 'normal' people have decided not to catch a plane at the last minute only for the plane they should have been on to crash. Often when interviewed they explain that they had a sense of forbodeing about the flight.

Originally posted by Dragon
On the contrary - magik is so simple even a child can understand it.

my friends little boy who is only two years old told another friend "fire kitchen" he has only just learned to talk, thinking he could smell smoke she checked the kitchen but there was nothing.
Everyone left and the lady who's house it is went into the garden to get some veg and when she came back in a tea towel had fallen on top of the grill and caught fire.

whicthcraft ,druidism, christ and the goddess......................long ago in britain and ireland the druids had an ecological religion .there in the white secret islands ,they worshippid the goddess diana in ireland her children were the tuath de danann.. the brutal roman male dominated colonialists destroyed the druids in britain, [they never got to ireland until the quisling st patrick did thier dirty work. ]celtic druid learning lived on in its occult schools ,then after the romans left,came the saxon invasions and along with them saxon witchcraft.those two joined together in britain .....and along with another mystery religion,an ecological christology, that came from palestine,formed first at glastonbury ...the celtic christchurch... which inspite of roman catholic perseution ,has continued to exist to this day......druidism,whicthcraft and the cosmic christ are the roots of our western culture not christianity...it is alien and anti christ [jesus was never a christian!!!!] the mother goddess is not just a woman,she is the eternal ,the womb,of all creation,femiininty is the quality that makes for sophistication and civilisation .spiritual ecology goes beyond the physical ,mental limitations ......its is only comprehended by feelling!!!! it is the cosmic consciousness;..the mother goddess:

Originally posted by moongarden
There are many scientifically documented cases where perfectly 'normal' people have decided not to catch a plane at the last minute only for the plane they should have been on to crash. Often when interviewed they explain that they had a sense of forbodeing about the flight.

If I remember correctly this was a statistical survey of passenger cancellation rates, including those on crashed, hijacked or or disaster prone flights.

A significant deviation turned up on a significant number of doomed flights. Don't remember interviews being a part of that study though.

I've looked for a link but come up empty - anyone?

Dragon, you said that "Magik[c] does not even try to explain". That wouldn't be because there's sod all to explain, would it? Let's face it, it's a blatant cop out that could be used by anyone defending a lie. I have asked you already what physical effect you could bring to bear on me, and I am still waiting for an answer. Put your money where your mouth is. Can you give me a common cold this weekend? If not, what exactly can you do? Anyone can make ridiculous claims that they are followers of The Ancient Law, and rattle off appropriate buzz words like magik, the craft, the art and so on. Cease the irrelevant waffle and produce the goods.

A significant deviation turned up on a significant number of doomed flights. Don't remember interviews being a part of that study though.

I've looked for a link but come up empty - anyone?

That sounds more up my street. I'd very much appreciate a link as well.

Hot air I may be full of JBee, but I was quoting and answering a question so tralalah! The rest of your post is about as interesting as something not very interesting, and with about as much effect.

Anyone out there hwo wants to believe or disbelieve is free to do so as far as I am concerned. You ask for opinions and ideas and you get what you ask for.

The cop out Ant is in how you read what I typed. I was not saying magik does not explain that something works, or anything similar - I was stating that magik does not seek to explain WHY something has worked. Science tries to explain why the light comes on when we press the switch - Magik is just glad that it does without the explanation. I agree though - I honestly do not think anything including magik can explain WHY.

You have asked for proof that magik works. Well of course it does as it is all around you, but if you would rather not believe then that is your business. If I cast a spell to make you break your leg then something must make your leg break that cannot be explained away which is pretty damned difficult if your mind is set on not believing. You may trip and fall and break it; a car may hit you and break it; it may just break due to a defect in the bone - how do you prove it was magik that did the job?

If you get a common cold this weekend then you are just like thousands of other people who get colds. Just recently got rid of a cold myself. Was not magik either in me catching a cold or in the cure --- at least I don't think so. I could be wrong.

You know where my shop is. Pop in and we'll see what misfortune can be arranged to follow you. Simple as that.

But then - anything that happens to you will just be an accident or coincidence or other such. If you would rather not believe then don't. That is your choice and you are free to make it.

Now you do what magik cannot and tell me WHY.

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon
Hot air I may be full of JBee, but I was quoting and answering a question so tralalah! The rest of your post is about as interesting as something not very interesting, and with about as much effect.


Great comeback. And so eloquent. I'll assume from that tongue-tied response that I made my point.

But let me get something straight here... You don't approve of people who think they know about witchcraft by 'reading a few books' or 'dabbling a little', but you run some sort of occult shop where people can buy the tools to do just that?

Nice.

Originally posted by Ant
That sounds more up my street. I'd very much appreciate a link as well.

Well, I suspect it's an urban myth to be honest. Trawled the web for a bit, came up with nothing other than references to it, but no details.

And, thinking about it - if it was a statistically significant deviation, then all the airlines would have ESP warnings triggered to go off when a certain configuration of cancellations were registered for a flight. Which would rather render the "premonition" invalid, and subsequently the whole premise of premonition.

Dragon's points are pretty valid when he notes that any misfortune is not the result of a curse, but simply an occurrence in a vast sea of individual occurences. And there is nothing that precludes the existence of mutually exclusive occurences either, if you accept 'bifurcation' as the solution to the problem of uncertainty (and Schrödinger's Cat).

The package of "cause & effect" is not as rock solid as it used to be, and fully disappears in extreme close up...

To me there is something 'fishy' about the apparent forward flow of time and the binding of this to the second law of thermodynamics (or vice versa), and that it may merely require a different mode of perception or paradigm in order to 'see' in 'all directions'.

However any progress like this is still likely to be limited to the sub-atomic scale for now.

A slight aside from the main topic, just ignore me....

Originally posted by deadgobby
whicthcraft ,druidism, christ and the goddess......................long ago in britain and ireland the druids had an ecological religion .there in the white secret islands ,they worshippid the goddess diana in ireland her children were the tuath de danann

:rolleyes: Um, no, not really, the Celts weren't particularly any more ecological than any other civilisation.

And it's Danu, dear, mother goddess, a big girl according to most accounts. Not Diana, she was a skinny Roman deity, closely allied with the Greek deity Artemis amongst others, and associated with hunting and the moon.

Yes, I'm aware that if you try really hard, you can associate any Celtic deity with the ones from Graeco-Roman mythology, it all comes from those years the Celts spent messing around on the European mainland.*takes tongue out of cheek* But please...leave Danu alone in this case.


.. the brutal roman male dominated colonialists destroyed the druids in britain,

It was political, rather than religious, the druids had a firm control over society and weren't playing ball with the Romans. As a sidenote, the Romans, as a people, had not embraced Christianity at this point.

they never got to ireland until the quisling st patrick did thier dirty work. ]

AFAIK, St. Patrick was in Ireland towards the end of the Roman period in Britain. If you try Googling St. Patrick, you may find quite a few sites name his parents as being Roman or Romano-British (I'm not getting into that argument, there's no way of proving it either way, any more than you could prove that Arthur existed), but in that case, he's hardly a quisling to the 'original' people of Britain. BTW, the Celts were not the original people ;)

celtic druid learning lived on in its occult schools ,[/b[

Have you any evidence for these 'Celtic Druid Occult' schools?

[b]then after the romans left,came the saxon invasions and along with them saxon witchcraft.those two joined together in britain

Firstly, there's distinct evidence that the Saxons did not invade, per se, they settled. Big difference, a lot less violence for a start.

Saxon witchcraft???? You're upsetting a lot of Heathens there, dear. ;) That aside, yes, some folklore and suchlike did get amalgamated over time. I'll repeat that, over time.

*Skips rest of rant*

For $deities sake, at least get your facts right and stop playing the martyr card. It does paganism no good at all. :|

*goes off in search of more caffeine to let the others get on with their discussion*

DRAGON:
If I cast a spell to make you break your leg then something must make your leg break that cannot be explained away which is pretty damned difficult if your mind is set on not believing[...]

If you get a common cold this weekend then you are just like thousands of other people who get colds. Just recently got rid of a cold myself. Was not magik either in me catching a cold or in the cure --- at least I don't think so. I could be wrong.

You know where my shop is. Pop in and we'll see what misfortune can be arranged to follow you. Simple as that.

Try again...

I don't claim supernatural abilities. I have no idea of the location of your shop. Walking into your shop only to have both legs broken in a mysterious hit and run on the street outside wouldn't prove anything to me. ;) I don't want to waste my time visiting your shop, surely you can act just as well at a distance? I must by now be winding you up to such an extent that inflicting a dose of heavy phlegm on me this weekend would be a pleasure and a joy?

I fully accept what you say about the inevitibility of a closed mind dismissing a request for a common cold after they had requested it as "coincidence", but I personally would be mightily impressed if you could do it. If you could make me pregnant I would be 100% convinced of your mysterious powers.

My mind is not set on believing, but I consider that as a positive as opposed to a negative attitude. I get accused of having a closed mind all the time, and it's tripe. I'm sat here waiting for you make me a believer - glad of a conversion. Do it. Give me a cold and I'll tell all the forum at the weekend that I have the sniffles. I feel on top of the world - coming down with a cold in 24 hours would impress me and many other forumers I'm sure. Don't waffle, Dragon, just do it.

edit: If you have herbs to pluck and simmer, I'll happily postpone buying my Night Nurse until next weekend.

second edit: PHANEROTHYME:
Dragon's points are pretty valid when he notes that any misfortune is not the result of a curse, but simply an occurrence in a vast sea of individual occurences. And there is nothing that precludes the existence of mutually exclusive occurences either, if you accept 'bifurcation' as the solution to the problem of uncertainty (and Schrödinger's Cat).
But depending on either the nature or the number of repetitions of the coincidence, it's significance, for me, would be acceptable as evidence.

AFAIK, St. Patrick was in Ireland towards the end of the Roman period in Britain. If you try Googling St. Patrick, you may find quite a few sites name his parents as being Roman or Romano-British (I'm not getting into that argument, there's no way of proving it either way, any more than you could prove that Arthur existed), but in that case, he's hardly a quisling to the 'original' people of Britain. BTW, the Celts were not the original people ;)
*goes off in search of more caffeine to let the others get on with their discussion* [/B][/QUOTE] ah i like you eleri an" expert" who like all good experts know's nothing at all about what he's expert about ,before we go on about st patrick and proof..what do you know of martia proba,the brehon laws,the sechus mor and st patrick????as for googling, people like you make two mistakes .....they think everythings on the internet...and every thing they read on the internets true...

Originally posted by deadgobby
ah i like you eleri an" expert" who like all good experts know's nothing at all about what he's expert about ,before we go on about st patrick and proof..what do you know of martia proba,the brehon laws,the sechus mor and st patrick????as for googling, people like you make two mistakes .....they think everythings on the internet...and every thing they read on the internets true...

*coughs* Actually, love, a degree in archaeology and years spent researching does give me some knowledge, but I don't claim to be an expert in anything. And nope, I don't believe for a second that everything is on the internet, nor that what is is all true.

What I do believe in is that people who give out misinformation in an effort to sway others to their cause need sussing out on occasion.

JBee - no not really. I found your post boring and empty - that is my personal perception of it. Others may find it interesting. Good for them. Frankly my dear - I don't give a damn! So keep on going. Sure you are having a bit of fun. Yes - I do run a shop that I hope will eventually cater for what witches require, but getting the decent stock is not easy. I have nothing against people dabbling, and if they want to call themselves witches then that is their business. If they want to call themselves zulu warriors then that is fine as well, and if they really want to be called tomatoes - that does not make them tomatoes does it?

Ant - round and round in circles. I hear this so often from people and really it bears no relevance to what people want to believe. If someone wants to have strong faith in magik then that is surely their business. I neither wish to prove nor disprove my faith to you. I am not in the business of converting people, or trying to. I will leave that to the jehovas or christians.

Eleri - your research and archaological hunting must be pretty special as there are many many others in the same field as you who counter your claims. They are all based upon supposition and guesswork anyhow. If you dig up a few celtic trinkets at a particular site then there must have been celts living there?

You may find it interesting to read "Mysteries of Britain" for a start - a book that relies on many forms of information and not just archaology.

This debate is getting nowhere aside from the obvious - there are those who believe and will continue to do so, and there are those who do not, and will continue not to do so.

Dragon

Originally posted by deadgobby
what do you know of martia proba
it wasn't her real name surely?

Originally posted by Dragon

Eleri - your research and archaological hunting must be pretty special as there are many many others in the same field as you who counter your claims. They are all based upon supposition and guesswork anyhow. If you dig up a few celtic trinkets at a particular site then there must have been celts living there?

You may find it interesting to read "Mysteries of Britain" for a start - a book that relies on many forms of information and not just archaology.

This debate is getting nowhere aside from the obvious - there are those who believe and will continue to do so, and there are those who do not, and will continue not to do so.

Dragon

Erm...yeah.... Where did that first paragraph come from, Dragon? AFAIK, I said nothing about Celtic artefacts indicating a Celtic site, indeed, I said nothing about the Celts calling themselves Celts, or being a homogeneous people.

I don't deny that archaeologists are probably only second to pagans in never being able to agree on anything. :D

And I never said that my research was purely archaeological. ;)