Been following the Hurricane all day, lots of holliday makers from UK over here.

New Orleans expected to be under 30 feet of water by early AM tomorrow.

Yes, been watching it too, Poppins.,on our t.v. Never thought about UK holidaymakers, of course it is kids holidays and a lot will be over there. Seems quite windy over here at the moment.Whats it like where you are Poppins?.

Originally posted by pattricia
Yes, been watching it too, Poppins.,on our t.v. Never thought about UK holidaymakers, of course it is kids holidays and a lot will be over there. Seems quite windy over here at the moment.Whats it like where you are Poppins?.

Yes they've been interviewing people from the UK, most flew into Orleans from Miami yesterday, they were just wondering why every one was going the opposite way to them on arrival.

Lots of English people love New Orleans. Have they started going the other way yet ?

Originally posted by pattricia
Lots of English people love New Orleans. Have they started going the other way yet ?

No, just waiting in line with thousands of others trying to get into a football stadium for safety.

Strangely enough my old man was to fly out to New Orleans at 6am this morning. He's going to Texas instead now.

Anyway, he phoned up his hotel in New Orleans to cancel and they offered to refund him the money. Feeling that one good turn deserved another he kept the chap on the end of the line chatting about how much he appreciated the customer service and he would be sure to recommend them in future. Suddenly the chap cut him short by saying,

"Sir, I'm sorry to be curt, but the windows are now boarded up and we have to leave NOW."

You can't really argue with that, can you?

Yes, say goodbye to New Orleans as we know it. The city is under a mandatory evacuation, however, thousands of people do not have the ability or transportation to leave. People are going to the New Orleans Saints' football stadium, which can hold 80,000 people. But there are many more who are going to wait it out. A catagory 5 storm is catastrophic and will flatten most buildings and structures. Here in northwest Florida we dodged a bullet. We have had our fair share but we do wish this on anybody else. Here in Gulf Breeze we are awaiting the outer edges and already it is blowing a gale and raining hard. Pensacola Beach 5 miles away has had a voluntary evacuation. That means winds of 80 to 100 mph plus a storm surge of 10 feet. Waves have been recorded up to 20-30ft high. We have boarded up again. We just went through Dennis a month ago and took a direct hit. So we are used to it now. In New Orleans they are expecting a horrific storm of 175 mph with gusts up to 200 mph. It may weaken slightly as it hits land but will still wipe many places. New Orleans is like Holland and built on reclaimed land. It is lower than sea level with the Mississippi river on one side and Lake Ponchartrain on the other. They have dike walls or levees, which keep the water back but the city's mayor expects those dam walls to burst and the city will be underwater by tomorrow. The pumps will no beable to cope with all the water.

So tonight we are watching news and praying. God help them cos they're going to need it.

Just switched on the TV to see what's happening in New Orleans..... Hope everyone is well protected ..... no news on BBC, just saying that everyone is preparing...

I was New Orleans last week. It was a wonderful place. I Hope it survives. Its so weird to see it in such a traumatic state.

Its so sad.

Funke88, How are you now over there ? Hope everything is O.K. Has just been on the BBC news tonight.Looks pretty bad FUNKE, Has it moved further away from you yet ? Was saying that everyone was boarded up. Let us know what happens.

Originally posted by poppins
Been following the Hurricane all day, lots of holliday makers from UK over here.

New Orleans expected to be under 30 feet of water by early AM tomorrow.

It says that you joined Aug. 2005 - you've been here longer than that, haven't you?

New Orleans was bad. Biloxi and Gulfport in Mississippi were worse. Just unbelievable destruction. Worst storm since 1969. Many people did not evacuate. 100s believed dead. They are talking about evacuating all of New Orleans.

Thanks for letting us know.Yes, been on the BBC news tonight.Looks pretty bad. Says that 70% of new orleans is built below sea level.

Now it's 80%. 2 levees broke and water is flowing into the city. It's a giant soup bowl.

Oh dear, just watching the latest pictures and listening to the updates on 'world news tonight' from the US.

It seems the flood waters are still rising. Some of the poorest people couldn't leave - they didn't have a car and couldn't afford to hire one ... and the poorest live in the lowest lying areas too ... this is so very, very sad.

No-one has said yet if (and when) the flood waters will begin to recede - I'm guess that, as much of the City of New Orleans is below sea level, it is going to be a long and slow process.

I'm sure all the American people will pull together to help out those who have lost everything.

Thinking of you xxx

They are now saying on the news that this is the worst national disaster the nation has ever gone through. More and more water is flowing into downtown New Orleans, the stadium has been evacuated as too dangerous to stay in. People are unable to get food or drinking water. No electricity therefore no gas stations are open. Several USAF C5 Galaxys are taking off from Westover a few miles from me loaded with equipment and personnel. I keep hearing them go over. Here in Connecticut we have had some heavy rain but so far nothing serious. I'm looking down at the Connecticut river a few hundred feet form my door and thinking River stay away from my door.
We are used to violent weather over here, be it tornado, blizzard, hurricane or earthquake, but it hurts us all even if we're the lucky ones, and we help each other.
I hope and pray that none of your holidaymakers on the gulf coast are in trouble.

Where are all the expressions of sympathy and support from other world leaders about this disaster ? I haven't seen ANYTHING from here (Canada) , Mexico (another neighbour)Britain, the rest of the E.U, Japan, Saudie Arabia et al. The people in these southern states need help PDQ. If this had happened anywhere else the Americans would be leading the charge to help. These people have lost EVERYTHING. On t.v. it looks as though there has been a nuclear explosion. Roads have been totally destroyed so there's no way to get people out. There's talk of trying to get cruise ships to evacuate them. As far as I can see, no other country has offered a penny. When the tsnumai hit Asia, the Canadian Red Cross made it possible to donate money online. As of now they're conspicuous with their silence on this one. Some people might not like the U.S. government and its policies but these are poor people (literally) that have been affected. There's a need for money, shelters, generators etc but nothing seems to be forthcoming from outside. It's a shame. I feel ashamed and so should the other "friendly" countries.

Just heard aparrently Crocs (or aligators) have come from the swamps and are waiting for people to fall off roofs or out of trees.

:cool: Cool!

Wonder if mester bush'll sign that kyoto treaty thingy now?

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
Wonder if mester bush'll sign that kyoto treaty thingy now?

Of course not, there is no proof of climate change.

(apart from the bloody great big hurricanes/cyclones etc battering his country)

Originally posted by chuffinel
Where are all the expressions of sympathy and support from other world leaders about this disaster ? I haven't seen ANYTHING from here (Canada) , Mexico (another neighbour)Britain, the rest of the E.U, Japan, Saudie Arabia et al. The people in these southern states need help PDQ. If this had happened anywhere else the Americans would be leading the charge to help. These people have lost EVERYTHING. On t.v. it looks as though there has been a nuclear explosion. Roads have been totally destroyed so there's no way to get people out. There's talk of trying to get cruise ships to evacuate them. As far as I can see, no other country has offered a penny. When the tsnumai hit Asia, the Canadian Red Cross made it possible to donate money online. As of now they're conspicuous with their silence on this one. Some people might not like the U.S. government and its policies but these are poor people (literally) that have been affected. There's a need for money, shelters, generators etc but nothing seems to be forthcoming from outside. It's a shame. I feel ashamed and so should the other "friendly" countries.

Europe
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372348,00.html

Canada
http://news.gc.ca/cfmx/view/en/index.jsp?articleid=166879

Iran, China, Russia, Holland (who have many experts in the field) have all offered help as well. So far nobody has been taken up on it. It must be a nightmare to organize FEMA as is, let alone having to co-ordinate other countries aid agencies as well.

Basically everybody in the World has, as of course they would.

Its begining to look extreamly bad, much of it is speculation and i won't go over that speculation, but this could be REALLY horrible.

Thanks for the links B2B. I take 2 newspapers daily and neither one of the bloody things carried the Canadian government statement nor anything about other countries offering help. The situation is worsening in New Orleans. A total evacuation order has now been issued, I believe. New Orleans has slightly less population than Sheffield (480,000 I think.) Imagine trying to evacuate that many people from Sheffield if the roads were gone. Some of the coastal area towns in other states east of Louisiana are completely flattened as well as flooded. Some people are expressing doubt as to whether the areas will ever recover.

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
Just heard aparrently Crocs (or aligators) have come from the swamps and are waiting for people to fall off roofs or out of trees.

:cool: Cool!

Wonder if mester bush'll sign that kyoto treaty thingy now?

Wonder if you would be so flippant if any relatives or friends of yours on holiday there were the ones on the roofs or in the trees ?

Originally posted by chuffinel
Thanks for the links B2B. I take 2 newspapers daily and neither one of the bloody things carried the Canadian government statement nor anything about other countries offering help. The situation is worsening in New Orleans. A total evacuation order has now been issued, I believe. New Orleans has slightly less population than Sheffield (480,000 I think.) Imagine trying to evacuate that many people from Sheffield if the roads were gone. Some of the coastal area towns in other states east of Louisiana are completely flattened as well as flooded. Some people are expressing doubt as to whether the areas will ever recover.

I know it's beginning to look so bad. It's scary right now, for a day or two I (and presume many) thought they got of light. Doesn't seem that way now :(

As for the lack of coverage of World leaders coming out to offer help. I think the media know the thing that sells best are pictures of disaster, so they just don't cover it. Also I think many people were caught out, people thought yesterday morning the worst was over, it wasn't.

I just gave all I could afford to the Red Cross, a company is matching all donations so it ended up double what I pledged which is good.

Why not have a "Live Aid " concert for the Hurrican victims ? How will they go on with their insurance companys,will they pay out ?

Originally posted by pattricia
Why not have a "Live Aid " concert for the Hurrican victims ? How will they go on with their insurance companys,will they pay out ?

I would have thought most insurance companies wouldn't pay as they would see it as natural disaster.

Last night an idiotic presenter on hallam fm appeared to be suggesting that the people killed in the hurricane may have got what they deserved as America causes so much pollution. :loopy:

Im just waiting for some idiot to say they deserve it for going into Iraq. Just you wait and see ! What low life !

I watched the CH4 news tonight which usually has much better coverage than the BBC. The devastation is horrendous and it's looking like the death toll will be very high, perhaps even in the thousands.

Many of the survivors will have neither homes or jobs to return to and the infrastucture is quite shattered. No power, water, telephone and many roads impassalble or destroyed completely. The urgently needed relief of fresh water and food seems not to be getting through to some areas and there is to be a general evacuation of New Orleans due to the mounting threat of disease.

The real worry of course is that it's still only half way in the hurricane season, so further devastating storms in the area are quite likely.

Looks like the place is gonna be a ghost town for the next few months as everyone is being evacuated due to the high numbers of dead and sanitation problems

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4201480.stm

With the national guard on the move I cant see we need to help the US out :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
Just heard aparrently Crocs (or aligators) have come from the swamps and are waiting for people to fall off roofs or out of trees.

:cool: Cool!

Wonder if mester bush'll sign that kyoto treaty thingy now?

How come posts like this don't surprise me one bit ?

Don Kiddick is an insensative jerk, which is American for w---ker
I was surprised to find how many people responded with genuine concern for the misfortunes of others, but it only takes one hater of all things American,some jealous thick headed moron to spoil it. Don't worry about it Poppins, he's not worth your spit.

I can empathise with anyone affected by the flooding. Two weeks ago, I waved goodbye to my current home, as I watched it being carried away by flash floods in North Thailand. Waking up and watching water visibly rising in your home is not a pleasant experience.

The floods have affected many of my friends' and locals' homes and businesses. Unfortunately, the surrounding hill tribe villages were hit the worst.

I certainly feel for the people over in New Orleans.

Originally posted by buck
Don Kiddick is an insensative jerk, which is American for w---ker
I was surprised to find how many people responded with genuine concern for the misfortunes of others, but it only takes one hater of all things American,some jealous thick headed moron to spoil it. Don't worry about it Poppins, he's not worth your spit.
Why thankyou buck (or should I call you Mr Rodgers?).

Relax it was not insensitivity, it's British resillience, something Americans don't understand.

And seeing as you seem to know me so well from 1 post I expect a Christmas present!

Originally posted by chuffinel
Thanks for the links B2B. I take 2 newspapers daily and neither one of the bloody things carried the Canadian government statement nor anything about other countries offering help.

Why are you surprised? When has the US media ever given a tinker's cuss about what is said overseas?

Originally posted by chuffinel
As far as I can see, no other country has offered a penny. When the tsnumai hit Asia, the Canadian Red Cross made it possible to donate money online. As of now they're conspicuous with their silence on this one.

The world's richest country doesn't need any money whereas some of the world's poorest in Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Thailand did. On a deeper note, perhaps one could reflect on why there appears to be a 'conspicuous silence'. Has America's image overseas sunk so low?

And don't worry, our money will be flowing into America soon enough when all the insurance companies start paying out. Remember the Lloyds debacle? That was in part caused by huge payouts by insurance companies to pay for storm damage in the US and our premiums shot up as a result. So, everyone just sit back and look forward to the coming hike in car/house/travel insurance that will come as sure a night follows day. In the same way that the rest of the world finances US consumer debt through purchase of the US dollar, the rest of the world will be asked to pay for climate change/storm damage even as the US continues, nay revels, in being the world's largest polluter (Kyoto agreement? Kiss my big fat Yankee A***…….that is, if only I can squeeze it out of my 4x4).

Is it just me that is thinking the U.S Govt is doing less than it could at the moment to help survivors?

It's been a few days now and theres still people stuck in the centre of N.Orleans, without food & water.

You'd think such a wealthy country would have got their forces straight in there, pulled out all the people, set up shelters, got food rationed out AT LEAST!

Some of the scenes on TV are shocking at the moment. Whilst all Bush seems to be doing is preaching that it's the worst hurricane to have hit America in history!?????? er . . . we know.

What worries me is that a lot of the poorer people won't even have insurance, so with no real state help they will have no home to go back to.

They were saying in the paper that with that many dead bodies floating about there is a serious risk of outbreaks of various diseases, again the poor people with no health cover will be hit worse.

According to the FEMA site, the affected people will be able to apply for money to get their homes fixed if not covered by insurance

http://www.fema.gov/press/2005/resources_katrina.shtm

CDC staff are en route to sort out diseases etc, but the best thing they can do is just remove the living from the devastated areas, and they have 475 buses coming from Texas to pull people out :thumbsup:

Oh, and they are setting up MASH style units. Not quite sure what the 4 veterinary units are gonna do that they are sending there though :confused:

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
Why thankyou buck (or should I call you Mr Rodgers?).

Relax it was not insensitivity, it's British resillience, something Americans don't understand.

And seeing as you seem to know me so well from 1 post I expect a Christmas present!

Well you did remark that alligators and crocodiles waiting below trees where survivors were taking refuge was "Cool". I opine that your post had nothing to do with "British resilience" and everything to do with idiocy. Your 'humour' is in bad taste and you should expect most people, especially Americans, to castigate you for it. The British people should be showing solidarity with our neighbours across the pond not laughing heartlessly at their tragic events.

Now run along, there must be a village somewhere that you are depriving of an idiot.

Just in case anybody wanted to offer some practical help...

Red Cross in America (http://www.redcross.org/)

You may also consider the Salvation Army - they are going to dish up some 500,000 meals a day and have been helping people since the word go

http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/

many other charities listed on the FEMA site link I posted above...

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by JonJParr
Well you did remark that alligators and crocodiles waiting below trees where survivors were taking refuge was "Cool". I opine that your post had nothing to do with "British resilience" and everything to do with idiocy. Your 'humour' is in bad taste and you should expect most people, especially Americans, to castigate you for it. The British people should be showing solidarity with our neighbours across the pond not laughing heartlessly at their tragic events.

Now run along, there must be a village somewhere that you are depriving of an idiot.
yeah wotevah

look at my face - am I bovvered?

The 'coo'l was in the style of Bart Simpson (ooh an American) who says it when things like this happen.


Wotevah.

Yeh, whats great is the looting... I think its fantastic, because when the power water and gas stops working.......




What you need is.......











40 Pairs of Nike Trainers :loopy: :loopy:

Joel

Certainly a terrible state of affairs and those affected have my sympathies.

I feel particularly sorry for the (financially) poor caught up in this because as previously pointed out they probably have no insurance coverage, even so I suspect it'll get classified as and act of God, however this in mind I suspect that the administrations attitude to the poor will mean that any help will be scant in comparison to any other developed western country.

What I find amazing is that with the increased danger of tropical storms/hurricanes/el nino in todays climate, why does man still insist on building in flood plains and having inadequate defences? Suddenly it would appear that the environment and the validity and pertinance of the Kyoto treaty has come to the forefront.

Originally posted by pattricia
Why not have a "Live Aid " concert for the Hurrican victims ?

Details of fund raising concert here :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4203540.stm

Jazz pianist Harry Connick Jr and country music star Tim McGraw will headline a US charity concert for the victims of Hurricane Katrina.
The hour-long concert will be broadcast live on Friday, with actor Leonardo DiCaprio also expected to appear.

Trumpeter Wynton Marsalis joins McGraw and Connick Jr. The trio were born in Louisiana, one of the worst-hit areas.

Music channel MTV plans to show its own hurricane relief concert, with Green Day and Alicia Keys, on 10 September.

It is hot and humid in the stadium and toilets are overflowing
Looting and lawlessness is widespread in flood-stricken New Orleans as people made homeless by Hurricane Katrina grow increasingly desperate.

There are reports of shootings, carjackings and thefts across the city, where a full evacuation is under way.

Medical evacuations from the Superdome stadium have been disrupted after a gun shot was fired at a rescue helicopter.

President George W Bush, who will visit the disaster area on Friday, called for "zero tolerance" against law-breakers.

Hundreds or even thousands of people are feared to have drowned in New Orleans, where the hurricane struck on Monday.

There are rescue workers risking their lives to save people trapped in their homes, and now these heroes and the survivors are in danger from armed looters

The government has declared a public health emergency along the whole of the Gulf coast. In Mississippi, 110 people are confirmed dead, but officials warn the toll is expected to rise.

Suspending the helicopter rescues at the Superdome, a spokesman for the Louisiana ambulance service told the BBC the crowd had grown unruly and he was concerned for the safety of his staff.

Overnight, a national guard was shot outside the stadium, but he was not seriously injured, a National Guard officer said.

City in exile

More than a million people were evacuated from the New Orleans and the surrounding areas before the hurricane struck on Monday, but Mayor Ray Nagin has estimated that up to 100,000 people decided to stay in the city.

During the storm, more than 9,000 people took shelter at the Superdome, but once the extent of the damage became clear the numbers swelled to 20,000.

Conditions there have sharply deteriorated and a massive evacuation of the stadium is under way.


Map of central New Orleans
Mayor Nagin, ordering all residents to abandon the low-lying city, has warned it will be months before people are able to return to their homes.

Bus-loads of people are being taken 560km (350 miles) away to Houston's Astrodome stadium in Texas, where beds and blankets for up to 25,000 people have been set up. The most vulnerable are going to the Louisiana state capital, Baton Rouge.

The BBC's Alistair Leithead in New Orleans says there is a feeling of foreboding as those marooned become more desperate.

There is no electricity, and people who have lost everything are struggling to find food and clean water.

People have faced shoot-outs and some reports say martial law has been imposed across parts of the city. Armed gangs have moved into some hotels.

People have been breaking into shops, houses, hospitals and office buildings.

Thieves used a forklift truck to break into a pharmacy, AP news agency reports, while dozens of car-jackings have been reported.

Louisiana state Governor Kathleen Blanco said she was "furious" at the growing crime wave.

She has asked Washington to send more people to help with the relief mission, to free National Guard troops to concentrate on looters.

President Bush, who flew over flood-stricken areas on Wednesday, has acknowledged there is "frustration" at the pace of relief efforts.

But he called for patience during what is one of the biggest relief operations ever mounted in the US.

:loopy:

Originally posted by Internetowl
President Bush, who flew over flood-stricken areas on Wednesday, has acknowledged there is "frustration" at the pace of relief efforts.

But he called for patience during what is one of the biggest relief operations ever mounted in the US.

:loopy:
The people of Louisiana and the other devastated states will have to be patient as the president says...do you realise how many flights of stairs there are in that ivory tower of his? It'll be a long time before he gets down.:help:

I'd have saved my bullets to shoot at Air Force 1 next time he flies over.

I think this is the story people will be talking about in the coming months.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372455,00.html

As for the looting, many people have been told to help themselves to water and food from stores... there is of course real looting, but there is a fine line between doing what you can to survive in very high tempratures and humidity and legality..

Also there is this..

http://www.labnorth.com/alex/racism.jpg

Originally posted by back2basics
I think this is the story people will be talking about in the coming months.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372455,00.html



If thats true (I've no reason to doubt it) the Americans must be pretty thick to still be suporting Mr Bush.

He got in didn't he? :suspect: :heyhey: :hihi:

Not saying that Nick, everybody has their political views (Currently he is polling between 36% and 45% approval rating)... but you know there have been many of errors so far, people are dead. It's 4 days on now and aid is not getting through. I would be angry as well, if they don't help people soon their will be riots.


Another source, Edictor and Publisher, which is why i think we will be hearing about this much more. Personally i beleive ALL goverments should me forced to listen to the scientific consensus if it really is a strong consensus, that way we know things are not politically motivated, the peer review process is far more objective than any political system devised by man.


http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

A breif summary of what the papers are saying. Only posted part for copyright reasons.


The Boston Globe



http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2005/09/01/catastrophe/

But even before engineers repair the damaged levees and begin the long process of pumping New Orleans out, the city's residents deserve to know whether human actions or inactions bear a share of responsibility for this catastrophe. There is strong evidence that they do and that the entire Gulf area will be at risk of future Katrinas if policies and priorities are not changed.

The New York Times



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01thu1.html

George W. Bush gave one of the worst speeches of his life yesterday, especially given the level of national distress and the need for words of consolation and wisdom. In what seems to be a ritual in this administration, the president appeared a day later than he was needed. He then read an address of a quality more appropriate for an Arbor Day celebration: a long laundry list of pounds of ice, generators and blankets delivered to the stricken Gulf Coast. He advised the public that anybody who wanted to help should send cash, grinned, and promised that everything would work out in the end.

The Washington Post



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/31/AR2005083102256.html

But over the longer term, it will be extremely important to better understand the causes of this long-predicted disaster and to determine what, if anything, could have prevented it. This administration has consistently played down the possibility of environmental disaster, in Louisiana and everywhere else. The president's most recent budgets have actually proposed reducing funding for flood prevention in the New Orleans area, and the administration has long ignored Louisiana politicians' requests for more help in protecting their fragile coast, the destruction of which meant there was little to slow down the hurricane before it hit the city. It is inappropriate to "blame" anyone for a natural disaster. But given how frequently the impact of this one was predicted, and given the scale of the economic and human catastrophe that has resulted, it is certainly fair to ask questions about disaster preparations. Congress, when it returns, should rise above the blame game and instead probe the state of the nation's preparation for handling major natural catastrophes, particularly those that threaten crucial regions of the country.

The Atlanta Journal Constitution


http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/0905/01edwitt.html

Each time you hear a federal, state or city official explain what he or she is doing to help New Orleans, consider the opening paragraphs of a July 24 story in the New Orleans Times-Picayune.

"City, state and federal emergency officials are preparing to give the poorest of New Orleans' poor a historically blunt message: In the event of a major hurricane, you're on your own."

--snip--

And yet apparently there was no emergency plan and no resources to evacuate "the carless, the homeless, the aged and infirm."

In this era when we are a nation at risk of terrorism and natural disasters, we can only hope that what is happening in New Orleans is not built into the fabric of our national homeland security policy. We should provide security for everyone, including the poor, aged and infirm.



The Chicago Sun-Times


http://www.suntimes.com/output/sneed/cst-nws-sneed01.html
Watch for a public uproar when statistics show how many impoverished citizens of New Orleans were killed by Hurricane Katrina because they couldn't afford to flee.

--snip--

"We knew the hurricane was going to hit New Orleans and Mississippi hard. Why didn't we send buses in to get the poor people out before disaster hit? We spend millions on recovery and rescue AFTERWARDS . . . when we could have alleviated so much death BEFORE?"



The Houston Chronicle



http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/3333822

No one can say they didn't see it coming.

For years before Hurricane Katrina roared ashore Monday morning, devastating the Gulf Coast, officials from Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama have been warning about their vulnerability to the storms that swirl menacingly in the Gulf of Mexico every hurricane season.

Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation.

--snip--

"If we had been investing resources in restoring our coast, it wouldn't have prevented the storm but the barrier islands would have absorbed some of the tidal surge," said Rep. Bobby Jindal, R-La. "People's lives are at stake. We need to take this more seriously."

Gangs of looters are now shooting at rescue workers (just been on radio news) and helicopters bringing aid.

What's wrong with these people? :loopy: :huh:

I had a very good friend in Texas who unfortunately I have now lost touch with. He has very close family living in New Orleans and I really want to find a way of contacting him and finding out if they are all ok. Does anyone know how the Metairie area has faired through this?

Originally posted by banesmabes
I had a very good friend in Texas who unfortunately I have now lost touch with. He has very close family living in New Orleans and I really want to find a way of contacting him and finding out if they are all ok. Does anyone know how the Metairie area has faired through this?

I will have an ask round. Just looked on a map and that area is very close to the lake. But i don't think it was effected that much. Give me ten minutes i will find you some information.

Local news station, much of the best information is coming from them.

http://www.wwltv.com/

Here is a forum where you can post asking for deatils of missing people.

http://www.wwltv.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=15

This is where that area is...

http://www.metairie.com/Maps/Greater%20New%20Orleans01.gif

Now click on this like this area, so there is heavy flooding.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/SPECIALS/2005/hurricanes/interactive/fullpage.nola.flood/images/map/horiz/map.05.jpg

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/hurricanes/interactive/fullpage.nola.flood/katrina.html

Maybe Don Kiddick shoulf go over, he'd make a good looter, and perhaps some deputy would do the world a favour and pop him. whatevva!

Thanks for the info back2basics, it certainly doesn't look good there. I can only hope that they took the decision to evacuate at the weekend. I know with previous hurricanes they would hang on and see how severe it was looking out at sea before deciding whether to evacuate or not.

I really think this whole situation has struck Bush for six. I just saw his latest speech - he kept fluffing his words and then he spent roughly half the speech talking about how there will be a shortage of petrol in the short term but they are working to sort this situation out as soon as possible. Excuse me - but is this really the priority at the moment?!? I know Bush is obsessed with oil, but this speech really took the biscuit.

No problem banesmabes, if i see more information i will post it.

Hope your freinds turn up ok, half the population got out before it hit, so my fingers are crossed that they also got out. It's mainly the really poor who are left, the ones who could not afford to leave.

It's a mess over there, the full horror is just coming out. There is still very little aid. People are dying in the stadiums.

Originally posted by banesmabes
I just saw his latest speech - he kept fluffing his words and then he spent roughly half the speech talking about how there will be a shortage of petrol in the short term but they are working to sort this situation out as soon as possible. Excuse me - but is this really the priority at the moment?!? I know Bush is obsessed with oil, but this speech really took the biscuit.

Bush is definitely rattled, but sounds more concerned with the pump price of gas than the plight of the poor people stranded without food and water in New Orleans.

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
What's wrong with these people? :loopy: :huh:

They're Americans.

Looks like some pretty hefty donations being made :

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/fortune500/firms_hurricane/index.htm

most seem good-willed such as cash, vehicles, communications equipment etc. Pity about the ones where they are just looking for more mortgage customers, but at least they are helping. Had to laugh at this one though :

Ford Motor Credit Company is offering customers affected by Hurricane Katrina the opportunity to defer up to two vehicle payments.

very nice of them considering people have left their cars to rot or dont have fuel to drive them - you'd have thought they could've coughed up some cash, even dinky little supermarkets seem to be doing better ?!

Love what Papa Johns are doing, what with 10,000 pizzas and 150 jobs being created. The Chicken Bacon Ranch pizza looks rather nice

http://www.papajohns.com/

:thumbsup:

I just love this thread, it's hysterical, please keeep it going :hihi:

Originally posted by poppins
I just love this thread, it's hysterical, please keeep it going :hihi:

Hysterical poppins? In what way? I was thinking just the opposite.

:) Sierra

Originally posted by Grissom
Looks like some pretty hefty donations being made :

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/fortune500/firms_hurricane/index.htm

most seem good-willed such as cash, vehicles, communications equipment etc. Pity about the ones where they are just looking for more mortgage customers, but at least they are helping. Had to laugh at this one though :

Ford Motor Credit Company is offering customers affected by Hurricane Katrina the opportunity to defer up to two vehicle payments.

very nice of them considering people have left their cars to rot or dont have fuel to drive them - you'd have thought they could've coughed up some cash, even dinky little supermarkets seem to be doing better ?!

Love what Papa Johns are doing, what with 10,000 pizzas and 150 jobs being created. The Chicken Bacon Ranch pizza looks rather nice

http://www.papajohns.com/

:thumbsup:

I think someone needs to donate some peacekeeping troops. On the bbc 10 oclock news they have several interviews with locals trapped begging george bush to send in troops to restore order and help them. If he doesnt have them, shouldnt they accept help from other countries?

There are supposed to be more national guards arriving Friday to help with the peacekeeping, which will free up some cops so they can get on with their jobs/have a break [after all, they have lost everything themselves...]

Originally posted by nightrider
I think someone needs to donate some peacekeeping troops. On the bbc 10 oclock news they have several interviews with locals trapped begging george bush to send in troops to restore order and help them. If he doesnt have them, shouldnt they accept help from other countries?

They have them, somebody messed up big time here. FEMA are doing a poor job. It's 4 days now, two hospitals are still without water and food, let alone power. They put 20,000 in a stadium without enough food or water, 30 dead in there alone.

FEMA have 3 people doing the media rounds so they are clearly doing the PR thing. The fact is that in that length of time, they should have had more people down there, and they should have helped the poor get out of town before it hit. They had a few days notice and for a whole day they thought it would be a cat 5, which would have been a complete disaster.

They are not excepting aid at the moment. They are saying it will be 3-6 months before they get all the water out of the City. The speaker of the house says he doesn't even think it should be rebuilt!

This looks like one of worst disasters the World has ever seen. It's looking pretty clear that thousands are dead.

A few observations:

The poorest people couldn't leave - they didn't have vehicles and didn't have the money to hire one.

Had this occurred in any other country, the American Government would be telling us about how much aid and help they are flying in to support the people. This is America FFS! Why can't the American Government help their own people quicker??

Where are the supplies of aid/food/water? These people are dying for lack of the very basic aid.

If Bush doesn't act now, other countries should take it upon themselves to fly aid over there along with the red cross etc. But I think this would be very difficult politically - certainly Bush would not want anyone else thinking he cannot manage to help people in his own country.

I feel so sorry for so many of the poorest people who are not even receiving the most basic of help and support. They appear to be the victims of a Government who could have done so much more to secure the flood defences and reduced the risk of the havoc this natural disaster has caused. :confused:

I find myself watching these scenes of devastation on Sky News in complete disbelief.

This is the richest, most powerful country on Earth - this is one of its greatest and most historic cities - what is going on? I am just completely speechless.

I simply cannot believe people have been left to die in their thousands - this is surely a disaster movie, not real life? How can this be happening in real life?

This isn't the Third World, where communications and resources may be rudimentary - this is the most technically advanced nation ever.

It's not like this hurricane came out of nowhere. The authorities had DAYS of warning and they knew it was going to be a Category 5 - so why in the name of goodness didn't they arrange a proper mass evacuation, forced evacuation if needs be to save lives?

It sounds like they left the population to leave under their own steam, and it was literally a case of 'hard luck' if people didn't have their own means of transport. I am finding this almost unbelievable. Why weren't there masses of buses laid on specially to get people out of the city and the counties around it?

Just what is the point of a government if it can't save its own people? Just leaves them to their fate? This is beyond appalling.

Those poor, poor people in New Orleans - I feel just so incredibly sad for them. :( It's all so sad.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by Hels
A few observations:

The poorest people couldn't leave - they didn't have vehicles and didn't have the money to hire one.

Had this occurred in any other country, the American Government would be telling us about how much aid and help they are flying in to support the people. This is America FFS! Why can't the American Government help their own people quicker??

Where are the supplies of aid/food/water? These people are dying for lack of the very basic aid.

If Bush doesn't act now, other countries should take it upon themselves to fly aid over there along with the red cross etc. But I think this would be very difficult politically - certainly Bush would not want anyone else thinking he cannot manage to help people in his own country.

I feel so sorry for so many of the poorest people who are not even receiving the most basic of help and support. They appear to be the victims of a Government who could have done so much more to secure the flood defences and reduced the risk of the havoc this natural disaster has caused. :confused:

and the fact so much oil appears to be refined in and around this city you would have thought that alone is enough reason to sort things out fast before you factor in the humanitarian side. Factoring that in it really does beggar belief what is happening.

Originally posted by StarSparkle
I simply cannot believe people have been left to die in their thousands - this is surely a disaster movie, not real life? How can this be happening in real life?
They haven't been left to die, they had plenty of warning to evacuate. Many chose to stay and do some looting instead.

Originally posted by InvalidUser
They haven't been left to die, they had plenty of warning to evacuate. Many chose to stay and do some looting instead.

Exactly. Sorry to say, in a situation like this, there are always those thugs and lowlifes who ignore evacuation orders because they WANT to stay and loot. The authorities were also forced to empty the jails or leave the prisoners to drown or starve like caged animals.

That said, I don't consider people taking food, water, baby formula, diapers and other essentials to be looting. However, I had to laugh at the two guys I saw on the news last night. They were lugging a flat screen TV between them.

What were they going to do? Use it as a raft?

StarSparkle, it's easy to see you have a soft heart, kiddo.

:) Sierra

Originally posted by InvalidUser
They haven't been left to die, they had plenty of warning to evacuate. Many chose to stay and do some looting instead.

Oh come on, show some human feeling. You obviously haven't been watching the same news channels as the rest of us if you think that.

Do you really think that if there was food and water and clean dry clothes for the taking and your Government seemed to be doing NOTHING to help you, your children and elderly were thirsty and starving, that you wouldn't try to take some of those abandoned, damaged goods ...

Someone on one of the street interviews said that even the tolls on the roads weren't suspended during this "warning to evacuate" what does that say about the care for the people that the authority showed down there. The whole thing is a shambles... the Government of the USA needs to have a word with itself.

For many the reason they didn't evacuate was because they just couldn't. - No money, no car, no buses, no petrol because the petrol stations ran out. Many reasons. For some they are disabled and couldn't walk. They had warning but evacuation wasn't an option. New Orleans is one of the poorest cities in America. People don't have the resources to leave. The State of Louisiana could not possibly evacuate them all by bus as that would take weeks. We' re talking about 100,000 people. How many buses would that take? We get a few days warning. It's not an exact science and the storm could veer off it's path at the last minute. The last major storm they had was Camille in 1969. Here in Florida we get them every year. We've already been through Dennis last month and Ivan last year. We stayed!! But I tell you, I won't stay next time. We have all learned a hard lesson. People are desperate for food, water, medications and clothes. Many loot to save their families. People are hungry, tired and angry. Living like animals. No toilets and no sanitation. No aid coming, and when it does it's not enough. Can you understand why they loot? They are very angry. People are dying on the street and being covered up and left behind. It's not a time to start blaming people. No one could have predicted this.

I am so upset right now so please don't start ragging on at me for my opinions. I see it on TV all day - every day and it is totally heartbreaking. Chaos is mounting. Death toll is rising.

Originally posted by rubydazzler
Oh come on, show some human feeling. You obviously haven't been watching the same news channels as the rest of us if you think that.

Do you really think that if there was food and water and clean dry clothes for the taking and your Government seemed to be doing NOTHING to help you, your children and elderly were thirsty and starving, that you wouldn't try to take some of those abandoned, damaged goods ...

Someone on one of the street interviews said that even the tolls on the roads weren't suspended during this "warning to evacuate" what does that say about the care for the people that the authority showed down there. The whole thing is a shambles... the Government of the USA needs to have a word with itself.

Absolutely. And they're starting aid campaigns which I find absolutely sickeningly preposterous! The richest country in the ****ing world! They do not need monetary aid, their are plenty of poor nations that do. The government has the responsibility and the bloody means to help these people far more than they are doing - they could afford to air ambulance the whole lot of them to the next state.

Fact is, millions of Americans live in poverty every day, in a country where the system means that the poor will literally perish if they can't afford to pay for healthcare. the government spends billions on arms and wars and foreign affairs, and investing in corporate contracts, and neglects the people that it should be looking after. How the hell is this happening? I am absolutely gobsmacked at the negligence of the government, and there's not a lot Bush could do any more that could shock me. I always thought he was of the 'America is the Greatest' mindset and didn't give a flying **** about anywhere else and was perfectly happy to bomb them to hell for his own means.

But you know what? He doesn't care enough about his own people to pay for enough aid for them either. it's not about America is it, it's about rich America. I don't even know why I'm surprised.

Originally posted by StarSparkle
I find myself watching these scenes of devastation on Sky News in complete disbelief.

This is the richest, most powerful country on Earth - this is one of its greatest and most historic cities - what is going on? I am just completely speechless.

I simply cannot believe people have been left to die in their thousands - this is surely a disaster movie, not real life? How can this be happening in real life?

This isn't the Third World, where communications and resources may be rudimentary - this is the most technically advanced nation ever.

It's not like this hurricane came out of nowhere. The authorities had DAYS of warning and they knew it was going to be a Category 5 - so why in the name of goodness didn't they arrange a proper mass evacuation, forced evacuation if needs be to save lives?

It sounds like they left the population to leave under their own steam, and it was literally a case of 'hard luck' if people didn't have their own means of transport. I am finding this almost unbelievable. Why weren't there masses of buses laid on specially to get people out of the city and the counties around it?

Just what is the point of a government if it can't save its own people? Just leaves them to their fate? This is beyond appalling.

Those poor, poor people in New Orleans - I feel just so incredibly sad for them. :( It's all so sad.

StarSparkle

Just reading the thread back now I've let off some steam. I absolutely agree. I just don't understand it - richest nation in the world? So how is this happening? THEY REALLY JUST DON'T ****ING CARE DO THEY?! God I am so angry, those poor people.

According to this, Congress is coming back from recess Friday and one thing they are being asked to pass is a $10 billion package so that FEMA can continue its efforts long-term

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.recovery/index.html

does seem odd that they need all the fundraising - would be better if the govt. could reimburse the charities for their work instead...

Does anyone fancy joining me in a mass emailing to Washington about this? I doubt it will do much good but I can't stand here and do nothing.

Let me put it this way - Sudan, for example. People are dying, every single day. It's ****ing awful, tragic, absolutley NOT ON. But the goverment doesn't claim to be the most moral and developed country in the world, so we know that any help has to come from outside and we bloody give it to them as much as we can. But this country, the USA (united states? are you kidding me? I seriously doubt that Washington thinks outside the coastal states very often), claiming to be so righteous and advanced and 'the justice-bringer' to places like Iraq - well I'm not sending my aid money there. I feel terrible for those people because there's an abundance of money to sort them out instantly (I mean really, there is, for all the survivors) but it's not being used.

And you know what Bush said to the people of New Orleans?

"Stay safe"

Well gee thanks, I'm sure that'll help.

THey need to know that the world is watching, and the world is not going to let them get away with this abominable treatment! God I'm so angry now! So who's with me for emails?

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Let me put it this way - Sudan, for example. People are dying, every single day. It's ****ing awful, tragic, absolutley NOT ON. But the goverment doesn't claim to be the most moral and developed country in the world, so we know that any help has to come from outside and we bloody give it to them as much as we can. But this country, the USA (united states? are you kidding me? I seriously doubt that Washington thinks outside the coastal states very often), claiming to be so righteous and advanced and 'the justice-bringer' to places like Iraq - well I'm not sending my aid money there. I feel terrible for those people because there's an abundance of money to sort them out instantly (I mean really, there is, for all the survivors) but it's not being used.


I understand your sentiment... but I disagree with you.

I felt awful earlier today thinking about how much I hate President Bush and the way America has plundered about in the Middle East (Did I say plundered? Sorry, Blundered:heyhey: )

But let's face it. The fellow that we see lamenting letting go of his wife during the storm:

"She said, 'you can't hold me. Look after the kids...'"

is one of us. A poor wretched member of our race coming to terms with the loss of all he had.


Doesn't matter which state or country he comes from. Open your arms to him. Bring comfort.

Originally posted by Deavon
I understand your sentiment... but I disagree with you.

I felt awful earlier today thinking about how much I hate President Bush and the way America has plundered about in the Middle East (Did I say plundered? Sorry, Blundered:heyhey: )

But let's face it. The fellow that we see lamenting letting go of his wife during the storm:

"She said, 'you can't hold me. Look after the kids...'"

is one of us. A poor wretched member of our race coming to terms with the loss of all he had.


Doesn't matter which state or country he comes from. Open your arms to him. Bring comfort.

But I do, and I would if I was right there. I have as much compassion for them or any human being in a similar situation. However aid-wise I think if they live in a country that can more than cope with the cost of supplies/medical care/air-lifting/other transport to safety, which they do, we shouldn't be asked to help out in this way. It's just not on that the American government are so **** at looking after their own, despite their huge wealth, that the Red Cross is already appealling for overseas aid (saw a link ad on Myspace earlier). I mean people gave to the Tsunami appeal because those governments couldn't cope with the cost of it, but in this case America can, but isn't. I mean, I believe our aid money should go to people who need it, and if these people were served as well as their government claims it serves them they wouldn't. It's just spinning a load of bureaucratic bull**** about congress as per usual and delaying more while more people die.

I care, so, so much. But I am more angry than anything, because it would be so easy to remedy and barely anything is being done.

Former presidents George HW Bush and Bill Clinton have joined forces to get Americans to contribute aid money to our own people. They were very successful raising money for the Tsunami disaster, and will do well here. I am giving as much as I can afford without going bankrupt.
Harry Conniff Junior, a New Orleans native is setting up a concert of country stars and others from the gulf states, also to raise money. The TV networks are going to have a marathon fund raiser too.
America will take care of its own, and we won't need the government or anybody elses to do it. If you want to help we will be more than grateful, but when somebody on this forum says she won't send a penny because she hates Bush so much, then keep your money. I'm not crazy on the guy either but he's not the one without food, water or shelter.
I remember many years ago the terrible gales on England's East coast which caused many deaths. Pray to God it never happens again, but if itr does I'll bet you can rely on American aid.

I'm sure the "axis of evil" are watching the news with interest and taking notes on how to screw their populace too.

Watched the news stories last night and I think that there will be a great deal of anti bush resentment from those that survive. How can a country like the US be so slow to react to such deverstation. If it was war it would be far quicker to the situation. No aid brought in, No cries of help and public offers of aid being broadcast( are they too ego orientated for there help).

The situation is absolutely f****ng ridiculous.

I've been watching the news in disbelief - the poor people ( not all stayed to loot! ) who didn't have transport, have been abandoned.

Old people left to starve in their homes!! did anyone see the 3 old aged pensioners in their car!!

This really is making me angry now - George Bush you complete and utter tosspot! get your head out of your arse and start doing some actual work! :rant:

These events merely expose the rotten core of America: greed and indifference to human suffering. Couple that with opportunity (a huge storm) and a nation awash with firearms and the result is apparent on our TV screens. Can’t recall seeing armed looting and rapes in Carlisle or Boscastle. Where else in the developed world could you envisage the authorities calling off rescue searches to prioritise shooting looters and rapists? Virtually unthinkable. And don’t they just love it? Have a look at the reports on the BBC of police chiefs/national guardsmen swaggering about talking about troops being armed with M16s that are ‘locked and loaded’. I’m just waiting for some inane redneck to be quoted as wanting to open up a can of whoop-ass on them thar looters. This storm has stripped away America’s thin veneer of civilisation and exposed it for what it is in all its glory. And they think they can create democracy in the Middle East? Jeezuz wept.

Originally posted by withnail
This storm has stripped away America’s thin veneer of civilisation and exposed it for what it is in all its glory. And they think they can create democracy in the Middle East? Jeezuz wept.

Maybe if Bush had an extra 20,000 troops to deal with the situation they might be getting somewhere - oh! I forgot!...they are fighting a war for oil in Iraq.

"Can’t recall seeing armed looting and rapes in Carlisle or Boscastle"

Poor analogy. If there was a huge natural disaster in an equivalent sized city like London or Manchester, you don't think there would be widespread looting and a breakdown in social order? Naive.

Enough with the tedious anti-american point-scoring. Blood for oil, amerikka is evil, bush is the antichrist, they are getting what they deserve blah blah blah, its because of iraq/kyoto/ whatever same old recycled cack over and over and over. Give it a rest.

This is pretty interesting in betraying some underlying attitudes towards public disorder in New Orleans.

Black people 'loot', white people 'find' (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=38922728&size=o)

Originally posted by skny
"Can’t recall seeing armed looting and rapes in Carlisle or Boscastle"

Poor analogy. If there was a huge natural disaster in an equivalent sized city like London or Manchester, you don't think there would be widespread looting and a breakdown in social order? Naive.


Fair point on the analogy but no, I don't think there would be a similar breakdown in social order. We are not awash with guns for a start and our society is more cohesive. Our administration is much more centralised and our troops better trained.

Originally posted by skny
"
Enough with the tedious anti-american point-scoring. Blood for oil, amerikka is evil, bush is the antichrist, they are getting what they deserve blah blah blah, its because of iraq/kyoto/ whatever same old recycled cack over and over and over. Give it a rest.

Can't see any reason to give it a rest. Can you think of another point in history when America's capital with the rest of the world has sunk so low? America emerged from the second world war as the nation, possibly barring the USSR, that had done most to defeat global tyranny. It then went about successfully turning Japan into a functioning, democratic market economy, gave Europe the Marshall Plan as a foundation for post-war reconstruction, and guaranteed its security through NATO. It also encouraged the UK to give up its Empire and supported self-determination around the world. All credit due.
Compare that golden era with today and you can see why it is absolutely valid to persistently criticise the current (and former) US regime and its misguided polices. The US, as the world’s only hyper-power, could be doing so much good and it’s a tradgedy that it isn’t. Anyway, only a few more decades until China assumes the mantle and we can look forward to a ten volume series on the rise and fall of US hegemony. Bring it on.

No. Since end of WW2 america has always been regarded with a mixture of suspicion, jealousy and outright hostility. It's because of their "hegemony" and nation-buiding that nowadays people are allowed the luxury of getting splutteringly self-righteous and preachy about comparitively trivial conflicts in middle eastern tinpot dictatorships and banana republics. We have it so easy now, so much time on the internet to stoke up back-slapping anti-american bile.

And of course....its well trendy.

Originally posted by skny
....comparitively trivial conflicts in middle eastern tinpot dictatorships and banana republics.
And of course....its well trendy.


Oh dear, I think you need to resit your modules on politics/economics/international relations.

At least it's something new to hear the middle east as 'trivial'...don't think I've ever heard it described thus by any mildly informed individual/reporter/politician/academic/soldier/bereaved parent/bomb blast victim/Iraqi/Palestinian/Jew.

Originally posted by withnail
These events merely expose the rotten core of America: greed and indifference to human suffering. Couple that with opportunity (a huge storm) and a nation awash with firearms and the result is apparent on our TV screens. Can’t recall seeing armed looting and rapes in Carlisle or Boscastle. Where else in the developed world could you envisage the authorities calling off rescue searches to prioritise shooting looters and rapists? Virtually unthinkable. And don’t they just love it? Have a look at the reports on the BBC of police chiefs/national guardsmen swaggering about talking about troops being armed with M16s that are ‘locked and loaded’. I’m just waiting for some inane redneck to be quoted as wanting to open up a can of whoop-ass on them thar looters. This storm has stripped away America’s thin veneer of civilisation and exposed it for what it is in all its glory. And they think they can create democracy in the Middle East? Jeezuz wept.

Oh dear Withnall, it looks as though the storm has stripped away more than one 'thin veneer' - as the above posting exhibits not even a patina of reason, judgement or even commonsense.

What is the world coming to when Police Officers (http://www.filecabi.net/v/file/hurricane-katrina-police-loot/wmv) are looting from stores in New Orleans too? :o

Lord C,
Have a good look through the quality papers at the weekend and then get back to me.

"At least it's something new to hear the middle east as 'trivial'...don't think I've ever heard it described thus by any mildly informed individual/reporter/politician/academic/soldier/bereaved parent/bomb blast victim/Iraqi/Palestinian/Jew."

What a load of ill-informed emotive guff. Note the use of the word "comparitively" and compare the current situation in iraq and compare it to previous geopolitical conflicts in (20th century) history, you'll find using that barometer that the events in the gulf are very small scale indeed. But of course its been artificially amplified by contemporary media exposure and the internet and of course its probably the only "major" conflict you've been "exposed" to.

Originally posted by skny
[BWhat a load of ill-informed emotive guff. Note the use of the word "comparitively" and compare the current situation in iraq and compare it to previous geopolitical conflicts in (20th century) history, you'll find using that barometer that the events in the gulf are very small scale indeed. But of course its been artificially amplified by contemporary media exposure and the internet and of course its probably the only "major" conflict you've been "exposed" to. [/B]

skny - sorry mate but you're talking a load of bull.:gag:

I totally agree with Withnail on this one - you seem to think all the other countries with their problems are nothing compared to the New Orleans situation.

America has it's hands in alot of pies at the moment and never thought it would need to help out it's own people on this scale - well, it's happened and look at what happening . . the govt don't know what to do, the police are looting too - people are fighting, raping etc . . . this is what happens in these other war torn countries every day, every week, every year!

You seem to think other countries don't matter, why doesn't America get the hell out of them if it doesn't matter?

Originally posted by skny
"Can’t recall seeing armed looting and rapes in Carlisle or Boscastle"

Poor analogy. If there was a huge natural disaster in an equivalent sized city like London or Manchester, you don't think there would be widespread looting and a breakdown in social order? Naive.


I doubt it would be as bad. People are claiming there are armed gangs roaming around the city attacking anyone they like/taking what they like. Its only a guess, but I dont think these were previously law abiding citizens.

Surely they are the inner city gangs that were already there and now there is noone to stop them? Given london/manchester doesnt have the same level of gang problems as many us cities (the bbc did say new orleans has a very high crime rate due to inner city gangs) we wouldnt see this sort of thing. Thats not to say bad stuff wouldnt happen - but I reckon it would be on a much smaller scale and less serious.

But of course its been artificially amplified by contemporary media exposure and the internet and of course its probably the only "major" conflict you've been "exposed" to. [/B][/QUOTE]

Nonsense to the first part of the sentance and how, pray tell, do you know how many major conflicts I've been 'exposed' to? My first TV war was the Falklands, at University for Gulf War part one, peer group in Bosnia...not that I'd call these, with the exception of the gulf war, major conflicts but then what are you refering to, WW2...are you that old? And what point are you trying to make anyway? Are you implying that one must have been 'exposed' to a major conflict to comment on it? Simon Sharma might have some thoughts on that.

Calm down dear and read some Chomsky.

Originally posted by withnail
Lord C,
Have a good look through the quality papers at the weekend and then get back to me.

This isn't the time for point scoring.

Anarchy in New Orleans isn't helping anyone there - perhaps the need for lethal force is acceptable if it stops morons shooting at the rescue workers.

It's a disaster with a lot of suffering human beings. Doesn't matter what colour or creed they are, they still warrant our care.

Joe

"I totally agree with Withnail on this one - you seem to think all the other countries with their problems are nothing compared to the New Orleans situation." Havent seen a post where I've suggested that. It's others who seem to be suggesting countries that suffer natural disasters need to be means-tested for either sympathy or material aid.

Withnail....its not nonsense, quite simply, gulf war 2 pales when compared to other post ww2 conflicts america has been directly involved in (korea, vietnam) and other national/international wars (iran-iraq, russo-afganistan, chechnya, rwanda etc)

Now, I know its handy for you to see the US as the source of all thats wrong with the world. But its a lazy and convenient mindset.

Its a shame you quote Noam Chomsky as a reference, but it's better than Moore. I'd suggest Christopher hitchens as a possible alternative if your preferred editorial content originates exclusively from the left.

Originally posted by Sierra
Exactly. Sorry to say, in a situation like this, there are always those thugs and lowlifes who ignore evacuation orders because they WANT to stay and loot.

StarSparkle, it's easy to see you have a soft heart, kiddo.


I like to think I'm a kind person, but no-one who has any kind of heart at all could fail to be moved by the awful scenes from New Orleans, and the heart-breaking stories that are coming out.

I was actually Very Angry when I posted last night, but deliberately kept that under control because I thought it would serve no purpose, other than to raise feelings still higher.

I'm sorry, but I find the comments about people deliberately staying to loot very offensive - no doubt some did, you'll always find some animals in a group of people - but it sounds like the majority simply did not have the means to escape.

That poor man whose wife was literally torn away from him - those people who stayed in their homes because they wanted to protect their pets - to put them in the same breath as looters is beyond insulting.

It's all about Political Will - Amercia DOES have the resources it needs if it chooses to utilise them. (But I would urge people to donate to the Red Cross or other charities to help these people, as it doesn't look like their own country is overly keen to save them).

I heard something last night about a huge hurricane hitting Cuba some years ago with a similar amount of warning, and the Cubans managed to safely evacuate the area in time. If Cuba can achieve this, why can't the most powerful nation on earth? If the government had cared enough to take the precautions, the military could have been sent in to forcibly evacuate. It just beggars belief - Washington simply doesn't care.

As the vast majority of people who seem to have been left in New Orleans are dirt-poor blacks, I think that says it all. Unless you have money or are useful to the economy, it really is a case of 'Tough Luck'.

I don't approve of violence in any shape or form, but if I was poor and black in New Orleans right now, Nick2's post from yesterday would make a lot of sense to me.

StarSparkle - kind-hearted maybe, but not stupid

Judging by behaviour I saw in Sheffield during the petrol disputes a few years back I feel quite sure that was a disaster to strike here on the same scale then we'd have anarchy too.

But why are these people taking stuff? Some will be taking stuff they clearly cannot use - but when you see someone taking shoes and clothes, bear in mind that most of these people have no clean clothes - many of those rescued by helicopter from rooftops weren't taken to refuges, they were just dumped on the nearest available dry land with nothing. No doubt the currency in the city will now consist of water, food and clean clothes.

I absolutley agree the looting must be controlled, however this needed to be controlled from day one and coupled with aid being brought in to the area. What happened instead was those people were literally abandoned by the state support system they thought existed for them, so they have reverted to survival instinct very quickly. Its too late now.

Originally posted by buck

America will take care of its own, and we won't need the government or anybody elses to do it. If you want to help we will be more than grateful, but when somebody on this forum says she won't send a penny because she hates Bush so much, then keep your money. I'm not crazy on the guy either but he's not the one without food, water or shelter.
I remember many years ago the terrible gales on England's East coast which caused many deaths. Pray to God it never happens again, but if itr does I'll bet you can rely on American aid.

Goodness gracious me. Noone'ss actually read the posts, or maybe I don't put myself across well through the rage - I'm certainly having to explain myself today, unneccessarily as far as I am concerned.

Listen -

I am not refusing to give aid because I hate Bush and what he's done! I SAID that I would give aid to people who needed it in countries where the governments were either too poor (e.g. tsunami areas) or too corrupt (e.g. Sudan) to do it, or bother doing it, themselves. I think the people deserve as much aid as anyone else, of course I do - what kind of inhuman sicko do you think I am?! HOWEVER, one would presume that your government would be straight in there to do it themselves, and have more than enough cash to do a lot more than aid money ever could.

Now it may be time to re-evaluate the situation, because if Washington is being as neglectful as any of the other countries I mentioned, despite it's PR 'god bless all americans' stance, it's people are in just as much need of aid.

Do you see where I'm coming from yet?

Originally posted by JoeP
This isn't the time for point scoring.

Anarchy in New Orleans isn't helping anyone there - perhaps the need for lethal force is acceptable if it stops morons shooting at the rescue workers.

It's a disaster with a lot of suffering human beings. Doesn't matter what colour or creed they are, they still warrant our care.

Joe

Hear endeth the sermon from Brother Joe....

Originally posted by withnail
Hear endeth the sermon from Brother Joe....

Believe it or not, I have as much a right to post here as you do.

I may not be as 'right on' as some in my beliefs, but I still hold them.

Thanks,


Joe

Originally posted by Lestat
The situation is absolutely f****ng ridiculous.

I've been watching the news in disbelief - the poor people ( not all stayed to loot! ) who didn't have transport, have been abandoned.

Old people left to starve in their homes!! did anyone see the 3 old aged pensioners in their car!!

This really is making me angry now - George Bush you complete and utter tosspot! get your head out of your arse and start doing some actual work! :rant:

Exactly! This is why I was so bloody angry! How can anyone criticise me for having a go at the government for this? It's negligence! Absolute negligence of it's own people. And they have no excuse at all.

I'd like to point out you can donate to the Red Cross appeal to help in New Orleans via iTunes, and 100% of the money goes directly to the Red Cross. The donations are not tracked and are anonymous.

Wilf

I feel it's beyond negligence Rosie.
As distatefull as it would seem, I wonder how fast the US Govt would have acted if it was a wealthy white neighbourhood around Texas ot somewhere, instead of a predominantly black populus, many of whom already exist in abject poverty?

My thoughts...

"I am not refusing to give aid because I hate Bush and what he's done etc etc etc"

No-one's asking you for aid, therefore whats with the OTT self-justification? America can look after itself, good thing too, considering some of the rather mean-spirited and petty comments we've been seeing on a few of these recent threads.

Originally posted by skny
"I am not refusing to give aid because I hate Bush and what he's done etc etc etc"

No-one's asking you for aid, therefore whats with the OTT self-justification? America can look after itself, good thing too, considering some of the rather mean-spirited and petty comments we've been seeing on a few of these recent threads.

Self-justification because I've been criticised by a lot of the members of this forum on this and the thread I started for venting my anger at the reasons why, I believe, these people are suffering unneccessarily.

It seems America can't look after itself - that's mine, and the other people who hold similar views on here-'s point - the government isn't looking after it's own and it's disgusting. And as for it being in the hands of the people of the USA to do it? Well bless you for being so generous, and I would do the same, but you know what? It SHOULDN'T be left to you to do. Governments are supposed to be there for situations like this, but it seems that Washington just has it's mind on other things.

Originally posted by skny
"I am not refusing to give aid because I hate Bush and what he's done etc etc etc"

No-one's asking you for aid, therefore whats with the OTT self-justification? America can look after itself, good thing too, considering some of the rather mean-spirited and petty comments we've been seeing on a few of these recent threads.

I think what Rosie was getting at is that it's not that she won't give money because she dislikes Bush (even if she does), it's that the US govt have more than enough resources available to them to deal with this situation. Which is true. But human compassion will always mean that Red Cross appeals raise money.

How many of these hurricanes wreaking devastation have I seen in my 22 years? It's geography, stupid. Why build so close to river banks? Why not be prepared? Yes I feel for the people who have lost their homes, family members, friends. Same as with the fires in Portugal. Ok, so Acts of God cannot be prevented as such, but there can be far better preliminary planning when we know it's something that occurs every year, and when the governments have the resources and infrastructure at their disposal???

Originally posted by JoeP
This isn't the time for point scoring.

Anarchy in New Orleans isn't helping anyone there - perhaps the need for lethal force is acceptable if it stops morons shooting at the rescue workers.

It could be argued that widespread reports of anarchy in New Orleans is actually benficial to the US government – they may not have exactly got their skates on with aid and assistance for those too poor to leave, but if they're just going to fight amongst each other maybe they weren't worth saving? (Is how the train of thought may have gone).

Originally posted by skny
"

Withnail....its not nonsense, quite simply, gulf war 2 pales when compared to other post ww2 conflicts america has been directly involved in (korea, vietnam) and other national/international wars (iran-iraq, russo-afganistan, chechnya, rwanda etc)

Now, I know its handy for you to see the US as the source of all thats wrong with the world. But its a lazy and convenient mindset.

Its a shame you quote Noam Chomsky as a reference, but it's better than Moore. I'd suggest Christopher hitchens as a possible alternative if your preferred editorial content originates exclusively from the left.

Did a good job on the Korean peninsula and in Vietnam didn't they? And I'd disagree that the current Iraqi conflict pales in comparison with the other conflicts you mention. The tragedy of Rwanda was precisely that no-one gave a toss, the Iran Iraq war was contained within those two countries, on what level is Chechnya a more significant conflict and so on.

You seem to suggest that in the grand scheme of things, the present conflict isn't worth shouting about. Well, yes, if you want to take in a broad sweep of two millennia, but we're not talking about geology, we're talking about current events and, pardon me, but the Iraqi conflict is THE major issue in the world today. You are living in never never land with all the other neo-cons if you think otherwise.

I've no enjoyment in criticising America for the hell of it and as I pointed out above, America can and has been a force for great good in the world. That they are not now is the reason for my criticism. What's wrong with that analysis?

Originally posted by skny
"America can look after itself,

Demonstrably not the case......

has anyone actually spoken to the people there, the press can construct newsflashes to push"your" buttons whenever they want.
the governor's of the state & the mayors are at fault, the infrastructure & local government are to blame for not removing people quick enough. by the way they were advised days ago to move & some refused to leave their stuff, why is that anyones fault.
imagine sheffield under water, the local government should be responsible for emergency evacuations etc not tony Blair.

a large number of looters are moving in to the area from other counties, so this should become a national priority.but in fairness how long does it take to move 7000 troops from across the US into one state.probably more than 48 hours,and aid won't be given unless requested. (treading on toes etc.)

Originally posted by JoeP
Believe it or not, I have as much a right to post here as you do.


Joe

Who said you didn't? I was merely alluding that your comment came over as a little too...well...sunday school teacherish.:P

Originally posted by noseyrosie
I mean people gave to the Tsunami appeal because those governments couldn't cope with the cost of it, but in this case America can, but isn't. I mean, I believe our aid money should go to people who need it, and if these people were served as well as their government claims it serves them they wouldn't. It's just spinning a load of bureaucratic bull**** about congress as per usual and delaying more while more people die.

I care, so, so much. But I am more angry than anything, because it would be so easy to remedy and barely anything is being done.

why should anyone have to give aid for a tsunami in a developing country and not for a hurricane in a developed one.
the people who built there houses decided they wanted to live on a flood plain or trapped within 3 tidal rivers.

yes the counties will need help to get power back on ,clear up the mess on the roads, rebuild the power station etc.that should be paid for by the state not the world population.the
local's won't give a rats ass who pays for it.
IMO people just get a warm self satisfied feeling that by donating £5 they've done their bit for humanity.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Self-justification because I've been criticised by a lot of the members of this forum on this and the thread I started for venting my anger at the reasons why, I believe, these people are suffering unneccessarily.

It seems America can't look after itself - that's mine, and the other people who hold similar views on here-'s point - the government isn't looking after it's own and it's disgusting. And as for it being in the hands of the people of the USA to do it? Well bless you for being so generous, and I would do the same, but you know what? It SHOULDN'T be left to you to do. Governments are supposed to be there for situations like this, but it seems that Washington just has it's mind on other things.

So well said. We pay our taxes for this kind of thing. I don't want to make this political, people are dying, but there is a certain political ideology where government is for the most part removed. In times like these it seems like a bad idea, although right now in the U.S and in NO it must seem as if the government has been removed.

The man who runs FEMA could not even run a horse breeding association (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/2/34622/68348). He was fired and left the association in a mess. Now he is showing his total lack of ability again and people are dying.

The Mayor of MO is on the TV every night PLEADING for help. He says he has not even seen FEMA on the ground. FEMA set up stations, and just waited for people TO COME TO THEM. This is the official line. 100 have people died AFTER BEING RESCUED due to a lack of water and care. Another 30 in the stadium. I read this morning in the Chicago Tribune that Women in the stadium were cutting themselves and letting their babies drink their bloody so they do not die.

What is happening here is CRIMINAL, absolutely CRIMINAL. The government continues to lie, even now. They say everything is going well, when the reporters on the ground, the local emergency services, the doctors and nurses are saying they have not seen a single person from the federal agencies.

They have Junkies looking for a fix, going down to the hospitals with guns, and THEY ARE NOT PROTECTED AT ALL. Now the Army fresh back from Iraq, a real war zone, still in war mode are going in to NO, with SHOOT TO KILL orders. Most of these people are victims. I understand the looters and Junkies need to be stopped, but the Mayor says it's nowhere near as bad as being reported, I fear that we will see street battles with people caught in the crossfire.

They still have NO IDEA how many people are trapped. They have not even started looking through the rubble. It's been 4 days anyway, anybody trapped will be lucky to not have died of dehydrations. They are LYING and saying they did not think it would be that bad. On Tuesday they sent 2500 National Guard, this was AFTER they knew how bad it was, not to mention they had TWO DAYS warning of a CAT 5, they actually thought it would be WORSE not better, as that’s what they were forecasting.

It is discussing, and it’s disgusting that at this time the politicians are STILL SPINNING. Sorry I am just so angry, needed to rant, not sure how much of this you guys are hearing, but it’s just beyond belief. I have never known anything like this. The government has failed the people of NO, when this is over, when we have people out somebody must pay for the thousands of unnecessary deaths.

One of the worst things is 1/3 of the city are not insured. Even more have no flood damage insurance and all that they will get offered is a $5000 loan. Look at these people they cannot afford a tank of gas to escape let alone a loan, no matter how low the interest rate is (and there usually is actually interetes applied to these hardship loans!).

Originally posted by skny
"
Its a shame you quote Noam Chomsky as a reference, but it's better than Moore. I'd suggest Christopher hitchens as a possible alternative if your preferred editorial content originates exclusively from the left.

What the hell does this have to do with right and left?

Please for one moment stop being bloody political. Christopher Hitchens is nothing more than a drunk. Every time he is on TV he is drunk. Why even bring him up? Incase you haven’t noticed people are dying as a direct result of incompetence and all you can think to do is bring up Michael Moore? Who give a rats arse about Moore, he just makes crap movies. You did it because you see him a synonymous with the left and YOU tried to point score on a political ideology at a time of national disgrace. Disgusting.

One thing matters, saving lives and punishing who is guilty for this incompetence and fixing it.

Put a sock in it. The topic digressed - as they are wont to do - and had -strayed- from the current emotive issue to other political areas, hence references to chomsky etc.

Originally posted by skny
Put a sock in it. The topic digressed - as they are wont to do - and had -strayed- from the current emotive issue to other political areas, hence references to chomsky etc.

And you just went with it. Didn't you? And used it to bring up your hatred for Moore. Pathetic.

"Did a good job on the Korean peninsula and in Vietnam didn't they" The effectiveness of these wars is not the issue, but in terms of ordinance expended, military and civilian losses they far outstrip the gulf war.

I can feel a Joe P lurking some where !

"And you just went with it. Didn't you? And used it to bring up your hatred for Moore. Pathetic."

What are you on about? I responded to another poster who suggested I read the work of Noam Chomsky. I -briefly- replied that although I mightnt rate chomsky, I would rate him as a more credible reference for the left than Moore. And then suggested an extreme-yet-still- left alternative in Hitchens. So get off your soapbox.

So, is there a central appeal that someone could donate to?

I personally don't give a monkeys about the politics of the situation but if I can help these folks in some small way I will.

Originally posted by JoeP
This isn't the time for point scoring.



Joe could we have some consistency in your moderation please? We have somebody accused of not giving aid because they hate bush, we have somebody else bringing up the left and the right and Moore, and you only go after the person who you disagree with? I applaud your efforts to keep political affiliation out of this, but it should not just be what you, personally, disagree with.

I am confident that the US will rise to the occasion, as it has done so many times before. No one can deny that mistakes have been made, both before and since Katrina. But the US has a great capacity to meet such challanges, once its attention is focused and its human and other resources are fully mobilised.

An important point which many people seem to be missing is that the US has a federal structure and that there are wide disparities in wealth between the 50 states, with the poorest being in the deep south. The federal government provides resources to the poorer states, but not on a scale which would iron out disparities between them. Moreover, although the American system, founded on the philosophies of rugged individualism self-help, private enterprise and small government, undoubtedly has its faults, it also has many merits, not least unrivalled capacities for technological innovation and wealth generation. Despite a faltering start replete with various errors, the US will I am sure rise to the challenge of Katrina - although admittedly despite George Bush not because of him.

Originally posted by Saifa
So, is there a central appeal that someone could donate to?

I personally don't give a monkeys about the politics of the situation but if I can help these folks in some small way I will.

Red Cross, i think they are pretty mobalized inthe area and outside for the refugees. Most people are suggesting the Red Cross are the best people to donate to.

Originally posted by back2basics
Red Cross, i think they are pretty mobalized inthe area and outside for the refugees. Most people are suggesting the Red Cross are the best people to donate to.

Cheers fella will do just that :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Saifa
Cheers fella will do just that :thumbsup:

Hold off just 10 minutes... i think i have a link of somebody who will match your donation to the Red Cross $ for $. I will go find it.

Banner headline in Connecticut's main newspaper,, The Hartford Courant. "A NATIONAL DISGRACE".
There, we've said it! This ungenerous, uncivilized, gun toting, racist, gas guzzling people have actually criticized our government. So all you spittle covered, hair on end, self abusing, know it all Yankee haters can shut the f up, and give us all a break.
Of course, congress was supposed to know as soon as the first drop of rain fell upon the earth, that we would need the National Guard mobilized asap. We would know that an entire city would be engulfed in very little time, leaving thousands trapped without access to the outside world.
So your anti Americanism gives aid and comfort to Bin Laden and Al quaida, and those who killed your countrymen in London.
By the way, American support and concern for London at that time was almost unanimous, even by our college students!!!

Originally posted by Saifa
Cheers fella will do just that :thumbsup:

Really sorry, it doesn't appear that they are doing the match yoru donation anymore. Sorry for wasting your time.

Originally posted by buck
Banner headline in Connecticut's main newspaper,, The Hartford Courant. "A NATIONAL DISGRACE".
There, we've said it! This ungenerous, uncivilized, gun toting, racist, gas guzzling people have actually criticized our government. So all you spittle covered, hair on end, self abusing, know it all Yankee haters can shut the f up, and give us all a break.
Of course, congress was supposed to know as soon as the first drop of rain fell upon the earth, that we would need the National Guard mobilized asap. We would know that an entire city would be engulfed in very little time, leaving thousands trapped without access to the outside world.
So your anti Americanism gives aid and comfort to Bin Laden and Al quaida, and those who killed your countrymen in London.
By the way, American support and concern for London at that time was almost unanimous, even by our college students!!!

Our care and concern IS for your fellow Americans.

We're absolutely horrified by the (needless) death and suffering. It IS a national disgrace.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by back2basics
Really sorry, it doesn't appear that they are doing the match yoru donation anymore. Sorry for wasting your time.

Its alright pal - It's not like I'm up to owt really important at the minute - Friday afternoon an all...

Originally posted by buck
Banner headline in Connecticut's main newspaper,, The Hartford Courant. "A NATIONAL DISGRACE".
There, we've said it! This ungenerous, uncivilized, gun toting, racist, gas guzzling people have actually criticized our government. So all you spittle covered, hair on end, self abusing, know it all Yankee haters can shut the f up, and give us all a break.
Of course, congress was supposed to know as soon as the first drop of rain fell upon the earth, that we would need the National Guard mobilized asap. We would know that an entire city would be engulfed in very little time, leaving thousands trapped without access to the outside world.
So your anti Americanism gives aid and comfort to Bin Laden and Al quaida, and those who killed your countrymen in London.
By the way, American support and concern for London at that time was almost unanimous, even by our college students!!!

Calm down Buck. Its just the usual suspects, mouthing off. Ignore them.

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Don't you understand - our care and concern IS for your fellow Americans.

We're absolutely horrified by the (needless) death and suffering. It IS a national disgrace.

StarSparkle

most people on here do care - however 75% of the posts have nearly all been anti bush, anti usofa, anti war.none of which helps.
how can a natural tragedyy be a disgrace?
they don't want charity from dogooders,but they need to be respected & allowed to work things out with dignity.
the us govt will overcome the situation in due course.

Originally posted by buck
Banner headline in Connecticut's main newspaper,, The Hartford Courant. "A NATIONAL DISGRACE".
There, we've said it! This ungenerous, uncivilized, gun toting, racist, gas guzzling people have actually criticized our government. So all you spittle covered, hair on end, self abusing, know it all Yankee haters can shut the f up, and give us all a break.
Of course, congress was supposed to know as soon as the first drop of rain fell upon the earth, that we would need the National Guard mobilized asap. We would know that an entire city would be engulfed in very little time, leaving thousands trapped without access to the outside world.
So your anti Americanism gives aid and comfort to Bin Laden and Al quaida, and those who killed your countrymen in London.
By the way, American support and concern for London at that time was almost unanimous, even by our college students!!!

OMG! You just not just say that.

Seriously the haters show themselves when something like this happens.

Why spin this? Your are not even a politician.

The forcasts, as you know, were showing a Cat 5 direct hit TWO DAYS before. They were being told that it would be worse.

Lookthe headlines from a right wing news source on SUNDAY.

http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/dsp/links_recap5.htm


23:28:15 Crawford Braces for Dueling Protests... *
23:28:02 HURRICANE KATRINA AIMS FOR U.S. GULF COAST... *
23:26:01 PAPER: Britain's Elite Get Pills To Fight Bird Flu... Developing... *
23:22:02 MOBILE RADAR... *
23:22:01 NEW ORLEANS RADAR... *
23:20:01 WIND ZONES... *
23:14:02 Battered and dazed, South Florida begins to clean up Katrina's mess... *
23:06:03 GET OUT! *
23:04:01 NEW ORLEANS PREPS FOR HURRICANE *
19:14:02 Battered and dazed, South Florida begins to clean up Katrina's mess...... *

On Sunday


http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/28/MTFH52652_2005-08-28_23-07-34_HO481242.html

NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - Hundreds of thousands of New Orleans residents fled inland on Sunday as Hurricane Katrina strengthened into one of the fiercest U.S. storms ever seen and barreled toward the low-lying Gulf Coast city.


It's not FRIDAY of the following week and there are still not enough people there. And trapped people will have died, unessesarily.

And when you know;

1) That the levee systems was only designed for a CAT 3.
2) When you have two days warning, enough for 50% of the population to get out, the ones that could afford it.
3) When 5 days after the event still, no real search and rescue is under way.
4) When people are begging for help and Hellecopters in airbases in Texas are still on the ground.
5) When finding was cut 5 years in a row for the levees.
6) FEMA heads are spending more time on TV doing interviews trying to spin their way out of it, spending time on PR, rather than helping organize as they should be.

All you can think about is people being anti-american? Critisism of something that deserves critisism is not anti-American, its the very definition of being American. This country did not get great by accepting the status-quo. Well i have news for you, America is OUTRAGED. You should be too. So we stand with America, we stand with the people, the vast majority of good people who feel this is not acceptable. We stand with America, not againts it, we stand agains YOU and you stand against the vast majority fo America. And then you say that people are helping the terrorist, you are quiet clearly a mad partisan hack.

how much does it cost to walk? $0

how much does it cost to send forces into a zone beofre the disaster?
how much does it cost to use equipment & helicopters & then find it's been wasted effort & could have been better deployed elsewhere.

no matter what the citizens & govt do they will suffer criticism from someone.

Originally posted by willman
how much does it cost to walk? $0

how much does it cost to send forces into a zone beofre the disaster?
how much does it cost to use equipment & helicopters & then find it's been wasted effort & could have been better deployed elsewhere.

no matter what the citizens & govt do they will suffer criticism from someone.

You people discust me. Now you may not know the full tragedy of this, or have all the details. But to say that it's their fault they could have walked out of there is just beyond beleif.

Sit down a think for a minute before you blame the victims. Of course it costs nothing to walk. Have you been to NO? Do yo know how hot it is? How humid? How people are trapped on roofs, under building, they cannot simply walk. Spending a few days walking in those condictions could be deadly.

Cost is NOT an issue. Lives are. And the cost is TAX money, money the people of NO paid. If it costs a million dollars to save one life, the moral argument is you spend the million. It's only money.

And if they deployed and found they made a mistake and could have done something better, thats fine at least they tried.

I really don't think people understand the severity of this. People are looking at the numbers of dead and thinking it's not so bad. It's MUCH worse than that. There are already thousands dead and many thousands more who are trapped, with no water in scorching heat and humidity. And they will die soon, and they still have no idea how big this is, or where to look.

Before you comment go read some news stories about this.. read this from the Mayor of NO, i guess HE is anti-american to you people isn't he? I guess he just hates Bush doesn't he?

This was from an interview yesterday, where he pleads for people to write and call their senators to ask for help... why should he need to do this?


Ray Nagin: You just tell him we had an incredible crisis here, and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice. And that I have been all around this city, and I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshall resources, and we're outmanned in just about every respect.

You know the reason why the looters got out of control? Because we had most of our resources saving people, thousands of people, that were stuck in attics, man... old ladies... when you pull off the doggone ventilator vent, and you look down there, and they're standing there in water up to their fricking neck...!

And they don't have a clue what's going on down there. They flew down here one time, two days after the doggone event was over, with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kinds of goddamn -- excuse my French, everybody in America, but I am ******.

Garland Robinette: Did you say to the President of the United States, I need the military in here?"

RN: I said I need everything. I will tell you this, I'll give the President some credit on this: he sent one John Wayne dude that can get some stuff done, and his name is General Honore. And he came off the doggone chopper, and he started cussing and people started moving. And he's getting some stuff done. They ought to give that guy -- if they don't want to give it to me, give him full authority, to get the job done and we can save some people.

GR: What do you need right now to get control of this situation?

RN: I need reinforcements. I need troops, man. I need 500 buses. Man, they were talking about... you know, one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here ... I'm like, you've got to be kidding me! This is a national disaster! Get every doggone Greyhound busline in the country, and get their asses moving to New Orleans. That's them thinking small, man.... this is a major major major deal!

And I can't emphasize this enough, man -- this is crazy! I've got 15,000-20,000 people over at the Convention Centre, it's bursting at the seams. The poor people in Plaquemines parish... they're air-vacc'ing people over here in New Orleans... we don't have anything and we're sharing with our brothers in Plaquemines parish. It's awful down here, man.

GR: Do you believe that the President is serious, holding a news conference on it, but can't do anything until [Louisiana Governor] Catherine Blanco requests him to do it, and do you know whether or not she's made that request?

RN: I have no idea what they're doing, but I'll tell you this. You know, God is looking down on all this... and if theyre not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price. Because every day that we delay, people are dying... and they're dying by the hundreds, I'm willing to bet you.

We're getting reports in calling that are breaking my heart, from people saying, 'I'm in my attic...I can't take it any more. The water's up to my neck. I don't think I can hold out. And that's happening as we speak.

And you know what really upsets me, Garland. We told everybody the importance of the 17th Street Canal issue. We said, please, please take care of this, we don't care what you do, figure it out.

GR: Who did you say that to?

RN: Everybody -- the governor, Homeland Security, FEMA... you name it, we said it.

They allowed that pumping station, next to Pumping Station 6, to go underwater. Our sewage and waterwork people [unclear] stayed there and endangered their lives. And what happened when that pumping station went down, the water started flowing again in the city, and started getting to levels that probably killed more people.

In addition to that, we had water flowing through the pipes in the city, that's a power station over there. So there's no water flowing on the east bank of Orleans Parish, so critical water supply was destroyed because of lack of action.

GR: Why couldn't they drop the 3,000-pound sandbags or the containers that they were talking about earlier? Was it an engineering feat that could not be done?

RN: They said it was some pulleys that they had to manufacture but you know, in a state of emergency, man, you are creative, you figure out ways to get stuff done. Then they told me that they went overnight, they built 17 concrete structures, and they had the pulleys on them and were going to drop them.

I flew over that thing yesterday [Wednesday] and it's in the same shape as it was after the storm hit. There's nothing happening. And they're feeding the public a line of bull. And they're spinning and people are dying down here.

GR: If some of the public called, and they're right, that there's a law that the president, that the federal government, can't do anything without local or state request, would you request martial law?

RN: I've already called for martial law in the city of New Orleans. We did that few days ago.

GR: Did the governor do that, too?

RN: I don't know. I don't think so. We called for martial law when we realized that the looting was getting out of control and we redirected all of our police officers back to patrolling the streets. They were dead tired from saving people. They worked all night because we thought this thing was going to blow wide open last night, and so we redirected all of our resources and we held... I'm not sure we can do that another night, with the current resources.

I'm telling you right now, they're showing all these reports of looting, people doing all that weird stuff, and they are doing that. But people are desperate. They're trying to find food and water. The majority of them.

You have some knuckleheads out there, taking advantage of the lawlessness, this situation where, you know, we can't really control it, and they're doing some awful, awful things. But that's a small [minority] of the people. Most people are looking to try and survive.

Nobody's talked about this: drugs flow in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding metropolitan area so freely they were scaring me. That's what we have an escalation in murders. People don't want to talk about this, but I'm going to talk about it. You have drug addicts that are now walking around this city, looking for a fix. That's the reason why they were breaking into hospitals and drug stores. They're looking for something to take the edge off of their jones, if you will. And right now they don't have anything to take the edge off, and they've finally probably found guns. So what you see is drug-starving, crazy addicts, drug addicts, that are wreaking havoc. And we don't have the manpower to adequately deal with it. We can only target certain sections of the city, and form a perimeter around them, and hope to God that we're not overrun.

GR: You and I must be in the minority, because apparently there's a section of our citizenry out there that thinks because of a law that says the federal government can't come in unless requested by the proper people, that everything that's been going on to this point has been as good as it can possibly be.

RN: Really?

GR: I know you don't feel that way.

RN: Well... did the tsunami victims request? Did they go through a formal process to request? Did Iraq -- did the Iraqi people request that we go in there? Did they ask us to go in there?

What is more important? I tell ya man, I'm probably going to be in a whole bunch of trouble, I'm probably going to be in so much trouble it ain't even funny. You probably won't even want to deal with me after this interview is over.

GR: You and I will be in the funny place together.

RN: But -- we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq, lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers -- lickety-quick -- to take care of New York and other places. Now you mean to tell me that a place where most of the oil is coming through... a place that is so unique, when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up... you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands people that have died, and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.

You know I'm not one of those drug addicts, I am thinking very clearly. And I don't know whose problem it is. I don't know whether it's the governor's problem, I don't know whether it's the president's problem. But somebody needs to get their ass on a plane, and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now."

GR: What can we do here?

RN: Keep talking about it.

GR: Okay, we'll do that What else can we do?

RN: Organize people to write letters, make calls to their congressmen --

GR: Emails...

RN: -- to the president, to the governor. Fill their doggone offices with requests to do something. This is ridiculous.

I don't want to see anybody do any more goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city, and they come down to this city, and stand with us, with their military trucks and troops that we can't even count. Don't tell me there are 40,000 people coming here, they're not here! It's too goddamn late!

Get off your asses and let's do something. Let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country!

GR: I'll tell you, right now, you're the only politician that's called, and called for arms like this. And whatever it takes, the governor, the president... whatever law precedent it takes, whatever it takes... I bet that the people listening to you are on your side.

RN: Well, I hope so, Garland. I am just... I'm at the point now, where it don't matter. People are dying. They don't have homes. They don't have jobs. The City of New Orleans will never be the same. And it's time.

(Then there's silence. Background studio noise comes up as the microphones self-adjust to pick something up. You hear sniffling... Nagin's in tears. Interviewer too.)

GR: We're both pretty speechless here.

RN: I don't know what to say. I've got to go. Okay. Keep in touch.

Originally posted by back2basics
You people discust me. Now you may not know the full tragedy of this, or have all the details. But to say that it's their fault they could have walked out of there is just beyond beleif.

Sit down a think for a minute before you blame the victims.

Cost is NOT an issue. Lives are. And the cost is TAX money, money the people on NO paid. If it costs a million dollars to save one life, the moral argument is you spend the million. It's only money.


i have never said it is their own fault, however i do feel that morally some are to blame.
my comments are in response to those posted that blame your govt for the tragedy. the tragedy is that the moral responsibility is on the people not on the govt.
state taxes are paid to the state.

we all only have news to rely on & that can be as biased as my own opinions.

Originally posted by willman
i have never said it is their own fault, however i do feel that morally some are to blame.
my comments are in response to those posted that blame your govt for the tragedy. the tragedy is that the moral responsibility is on the people not on the govt.
state taxes are paid to the state.

we all only have news to rely on & that can be as biased as my own opinions.

Ok well if thats not what you meant i appologize... i am as you can tell rather upset about this.. but you made it out like people could have walked, and because they didn't they may die. To me that looks like you were saying they could just walk and get out of it... but many couldn't. You have seen the pictures of people on roofs.. STILL on them. No water, no food for 5 days. The water is a health hazard now.

I am upset and outraged to say the least. A year ago we went through Ivan. Red Cross, National Guard and Salvation Army were there the very next day with food, ice and water. Very organized and civil. I cannot thank them enough for what they did. An extemely humbling experience. We ate and drank without fear of disease. However, I didn't shower for a week!! We flushed the toilet with buckets of water from our neighbours pool. Compared to this now- we had it good and I am grateful and lucky. But what is happening right now is a bloody outrage. Lack of communication and lack of organization. They were totally unprepared. We always say "prepare for the worst - hope for the best" They didn't give the order to evacuate in time and by then it was too late. Too late to organize transportation for those who couldn't leave. I have seen on TV bodies of dead people floating in the water and covered up by the side of the street, children dying in their mothers arms, pregnant mothers sitting in 90 degree heat with no water, old people collapsing. People are down right bloody angry and they want help, NOW. The National Guard have just arrived to back up the police who were too scared to come out and fight. Supplies are trickling in. Buses are slowly coming. Bus drivers refused to go to the Superdome because they were afraid to be shot or mobbed. After the cop was shot they left too. Buses that left got to the Astrodome in Houston and were turned away as they were full. People with hope were angry again. People would rather go to jail cos at least they'd be fed and have a bed to sleep in. There is going to be anarchy. Here in Gulf Breeze Florida we are 200 miles away from New Orleans and only 50 miles away from Mobile in Alabama that took the outer edges of the worst. Already we are seeing a load of people coming here in search of a place to stay. Our grocery store was out of bread, canned drinks and water. I have a tank of petrol but don't know how long that will last. You bet I am angry. I agree with Buck, it's a national disgrace. No point in pointing fingers, just start fixing it before the whole country goes to pot. And I told my husband that we need to buy a gun. If we have to protect ourselves and our property we damn well will.

Originally posted by Funke88
I am upset and outraged to say the least. A year ago we went through Ivan. Red Cross, National Guard and Salvation Army were there the very next day with food, ice and water. Very organized and civil. I cannot thank them enough for what they did. An extemely humbling experience. We ate and drank without fear of disease. However, I didn't shower for a week!! We flushed the toilet with buckets of water from our neighbours pool. Compared to this now- we had it good and I am grateful and lucky. But what is happening right now is a bloody outrage. Lack of communication and lack of organization. They were totally unprepared. We always say "prepare for the worst - hope for the best" They didn't give the order to evacuate in time and by then it was too late. Too late to organize transportation for those who couldn't leave. I have seen on TV bodies of dead people floating in the water and covered up by the side of the street, children dying in their mothers arms, pregnant mothers sitting in 90 degree heat with no water, old people collapsing. People are down right bloody angry and they want help, NOW. The National Guard have just arrived to back up the police who were too scared to come out and fight. Supplies are trickling in. Buses are slowly coming. Bus drivers refused to go to the Superdome because they were afraid to be shot or mobbed. After the cop was shot they left too. Buses that left got to the Astrodome in Houston and were turned away as they were full. People with hope were angry again. People would rather go to jail cos at least they'd be fed and have a bed to sleep in. There is going to be anarchy. Here in Gulf Breeze Florida we are 200 miles away from New Orleans and only 50 miles away from Mobile in Alabama that took the outer edges of the worst. Already we are seeing a load of people coming here in search of a place to stay. Our grocery store was out of bread, canned drinks and water. I have a tank of petrol but don't know how long that will last. You bet I am angry. I agree with Buck, it's a national disgrace. No point in pointing fingers, just start fixing it before the whole country goes to pot. And I told my husband that we need to buy a gun. If we have to protect ourselves and our property we damn well will.

i have heard similar from Ivan & hugo survivors about how they prepared as a community.never heard of looting or snipers on either of these events.

keep safe.

You can listen to the Mayor of New Orleans speaking here (as quoted by Back2Basics above):

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html

Click on the "(See video of the demand for national leaders to 'get off their asses' -- 12:09)" link.

The emotion of this is shocking....especially the silence at the end.

We have people coming into Austin - the lucky ones who made it out. My colleague has friends with him who have nothing but a suitcase. The stories they tell are horrific. The losses that they've suffered are horrific.

:(

What the disgrace is, is not the fact that there has been a disaster, I don't think there's a lot that can or could be done about that; the disgrace is that a relief effort was not kicked into action much sooner.

Whether people were right or wrong not to leave when the warning was given the fact remains that some simply could not leave whether they were old or too poor. And there will be those who simply decided to stay; not all of these will have been 'lowlifes' by a long way. Some may have wanted to protect their property, thought it wouldn't come to anything, or maybe had other people or animals they wanted to care for. That's all academic really. I think it's a given that some people will stay if not physicaly forced to go.

Just watching it from over here makes me feel frustrated and puzzled. I'm sure Americans feel just the same. That's why I say it's a disgrace. It wouldn't matter who was in power, it would still be the same.

Originally posted by Mathom
What the disgrace is, is not the fact that there has been a disaster, I don't think there's a lot that can or could be done about that; the disgrace is that a relief effort was not kicked into action much sooner.

Whether people were right or wrong not to leave when the warning was given the fact remains that some simply could not leave whether they were old or too poor. And there will be those who simply decided to stay; not all of these will have been 'lowlifes' by a long way. Some may have wanted to protect their property, thought it wouldn't come to anything, or maybe had other people or animals they wanted to care for. That's all academic really. I think it's a given that some people will stay if not physicaly forced to go.

Just watching it from over here makes me feel frustrated and puzzled. I'm sure Americans feel just the same. That's why I say it's a disgrace. It wouldn't matter who was in power, it would still be the same.

Well said, Mathom. That's it in a nutshell. The most sensible posting on this thread.

I agree with every word you've said.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by back2basics
OMG! You just not just say that.

Seriously the haters show themselves when something like this happens.

Why spin this? Your are not even a politician.

The forcasts, as you know, were showing a Cat 5 direct hit TWO DAYS before. They were being told that it would be worse.

Lookthe headlines from a right wing news source on SUNDAY.

http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/dsp/links_recap5.htm



On Sunday



It's not FRIDAY of the following week and there are still not enough people there. And trapped people will have died, unessesarily.

And when you know;

1) That the levee systems was only designed for a CAT 3.
2) When you have two days warning, enough for 50% of the population to get out, the ones that could afford it.
3) When 5 days after the event still, no real search and rescue is under way.
4) When people are begging for help and Hellecopters in airbases in Texas are still on the ground.
5) When finding was cut 5 years in a row for the levees.
6) FEMA heads are spending more time on TV doing interviews trying to spin their way out of it, spending time on PR, rather than helping organize as they should be.

All you can think about is people being anti-american? Critisism of something that deserves critisism is not anti-American, its the very definition of being American. This country did not get great by accepting the status-quo. Well i have news for you, America is OUTRAGED. You should be too. So we stand with America, we stand with the people, the vast majority of good people who feel this is not acceptable. We stand with America, not againts it, we stand agains YOU and you stand against the vast majority fo America. And then you say that people are helping the terrorist, you are quiet clearly a mad partisan hack.

Hear, hear.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050902/pl_afp/usweatherdeaths

BATON ROUGE, United States (AFP) - US Senator David Vitter said that the death toll from Hurricane Katrina could top 10,000 in Louisiana alone.

"My guess is that it will start at 10,000, but that is only a guess," Vitter said, adding that he was not basing his remarks on any official death toll or body count.


Ten thousand people may dead in one area alone.

My mum and I have been shouting in anguish all day. The injustice is absolutely unreal! Excuse me while I go ARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHH in frustration and upset for the situation of the people in Louisiana.

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Well said, Mathom. That's it in a nutshell. The most sensible posting on this thread.

I agree with every word you've said.

StarSparkle
Me too. When peoples lives and health are no longer in danger I think that some heads should roll. Maybe starting at the top ?

Originally posted by chuffinel
Me too. When peoples lives and health are no longer in danger I think that some heads should roll. Maybe starting at the top ?


I wish... Bush has let down his country in the most unbelievable way. The is no way people should have been left that long, to get that desperate.. the TV reports are breaking my heart - I have never seen people in such a state. It is truly horrific. Even more horrific because america is the most able country to deal with this kind of thing.

How hard can it be ffs... don't they have emergency planning over there? Hadn't they thought of what a cat5 hurricane might do to NO?

Why is Bush using all his energies in Iraq ? In a war he cannot win. This is worse than 9/11, get his ass up and do something!!

America is the most technologically advanced country in the World. No matter what anybody says, this could have been stopped. Holland has storm levees that would protect it form 20 foot storm surge. They knew the defences were not suitable for a CAT 5, they knew this 20 years ago. They knew the Wetlands were needed and they opened them up for development in 2003. If the wetlands had been expanded this may not have happened.

I just cannot beleive 10,000 could be dead... in America of all places.

Originally posted by back2basics
They knew the Wetlands were needed and they opened them up for development in 2003. If the wetlands had been expanded this may not have happened.

I just cannot beleive 10,000 could be dead... in America of all places.

Reading around some of the US newspapers in the last couple of days it also seems that much of the funding to improve and raise the levees around New Orleans was diverted to other 'projects' by the Bush administration over the last three years. These funds had originally been awarded because studies in 2000 had indicated that anything more severe than a cat 3 hurricane would inevitably breach the defences.

It's an enormous tragedy for the people of the US.

Originally posted by Anne23
I wish... Bush has let down his country in the most unbelievable way. The is no way people should have been left that long, to get that desperate.. the TV reports are breaking my heart - I have never seen people in such a state. It is truly horrific. Even more horrific because america is the most able country to deal with this kind of thing.

How hard can it be ffs... don't they have emergency planning over there? Hadn't they thought of what a cat5 hurricane might do to NO?

You'ce said in two short paragraphs what I've been trying to say all along, thanks!

Only today does it look like more help is going in, hopefully things are on the mend. It's just too late for so many people though...

We're ALL very upset about what's going on over there ... the more so because of the very close links between the UK and USA. We might be voicing our outrage about the way the most vulnerable people have just been left to work out their own fate. BUT that shouldn't be confused as baiting or hating the people of the USA.

I think the emergency rescue services deserve acclaim for the way they've worked so tirelessly to rescue people from the water, off roofs etc. It's hard work keeping a helicopter steady and being the winchman ... bearing in mind that they are from the area themselves and have probably lost their homes and belongings too.

New Orleans is about the same population as we have here. As 90% of them have already left, that only leaves about 30,000 needing assistance and 20,000 of them were in one location. How difficult could it have been to concentrate the effort there? I don't think that if this had happened here, we'd have had to wait four or five days for the rescues and clean up to kick in. No wonder the looting and violence started when desparation and despair set in. IMO the National Guard and police should have been breaking into the stores and overseeing the rationing out of the goods in them, not shooting people for trying to help themselves. The priority of property over people is all wrong in this sort of situation.

I have my own ideas as to why this has been such a logistical shambles but we'll see what is revealed when the debriefings start later.

Originally posted by willman
has anyone actually spoken to the people there, the press can construct newsflashes to push"your" buttons whenever they want.
the governor's of the state & the mayors are at fault, the infrastructure & local government are to blame for not removing people quick enough. by the way they were advised days ago to move & some refused to leave their stuff, why is that anyones fault.
imagine sheffield under water, the local government should be responsible for emergency evacuations etc not tony Blair.

a large number of looters are moving in to the area from other counties, so this should become a national priority.but in fairness how long does it take to move 7000 troops from across the US into one state.probably more than 48 hours,and aid won't be given unless requested. (treading on toes etc.)

48 hours? dont they have aeroplanes?

Over the last couple of days I have been struck by Bush's pre-occupation with property, whilst people are dying all around him. He has spoken about infrastructure, re-building, pipelines, roads, oil and gas supplies and looting.

It seems to me that the majority of "looters" are desperate, starving, dying people trying to find food, water and clothing from already wrecked shops and stores. If that is what they need to do to survive - let them. There are more important things at stake here.

If the resources of the National Guard and the US Army were diverted to assist the rescue effort, instead of protecting wrecked property, things would get sorted a lot quicker. There are thousands upon thousands of people who desperately need to be evacuated to somewhere where there is food, water, medical assistance and shelter - all basic human needs. Military transport aircraft and helicopters are designed to operate from unfriendly and unsuitable territory - it shouldn't matter that the airport is unusable. Combine that with busses, coaches and military trucks and it should be possible to evacuate all those people to safety relatively quickly. Four days after the event is irresponsible, disorganised and shows lack of will and commitment from those in charge. Help got to the Tsunami victims quicker than this.

Then, and only then, should consideration be given to re-building people's lives and re-building the city and its infrastructure. That is next year's job - today's job is to help all those desperate people - NOW.

Originally posted by MrH

It seems to me that the majority of "looters" are desperate, starving, dying people trying to find food, water and clothing from already wrecked shops and stores. If that is what they need to do to survive - let them. There are more important things at stake here.
True. I saw a picture of a guy who had made shoes out of cardboard cereal boxes and strapped them to his feet with string. I saw a looter armed with bags of babies nappies.
If they loot for things necessary to survive they will not be prosecuted.

I posted this on the wrong thread :(

This clip (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/highwayriver.html) is just the tip of the iceberg of how bad things were :(

Just had an interesting debate with GF after she was watching CNN. How does the SF feel about it? On CNN they were showing the appeals that have been launched in the US for the victims of Hurricane Katrina. Now both me and GF are suckers for appeals normally and give our fair share to famine, flood, earthquake or any disaster relief for that matter. The problem here in the Verity household is should we donate to this particular appeal.

We both feel it to be an absolute disgrace that the world’s richest and most powerful nation firstly didn’t do enough to protect its citizens in the first place and now appears to have the begging bowl out to put right its wrongs. Neither of us though obviously like the thought of these poor people (it does seem to be the community’s poorest and vulnerable), suffering in this way but we just think it is a bit much that the US are having an appeal.
That said though these are fellow human beings, that have lost their homes and family members, you have to pity many of them and I know probably in the end we will make a donation to ‘do our bit’ and forget the politics of it all.

It won't stop me donating....:confused: The people need help!!

I also donated after the terrorist attacks on the Twin Towers etc!

I think millions did!!

Yes, the American Government have made mistakes but I don't think we should punish them yet again by not putting our hand in our pockets to help!!

:(

Read this before donating to the Red Cross! (http://prisonplanet.com/articles/september2005/010905redcross.htm)

This is an interesting read about what the Red Cross does with all the donations they receive. I personally fell out with the Red Cross last year when they reached a certain limit for donations to the Tsunami disaster. They kept on receiving many millions in donations but decided the money should go to other causes.

If i donate my money to a cause, i want that money to go to that cause. I do not need the Red Cross governing where my money will be used. For this reason i now refuse to donate to the Red Cross.

Well that's pretty much the consensus here, ie by not donating we are punishing the victims and not the US government.

We also gave to 9-11, the thing about this one though is that you just can't help feel that they could have done more both before and after the event.

Anway I'll get the credit card out!:thumbsup:

(In reply to Sheish)

Is it just different styles of reporting? (http://www.tiscali.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?postid=936162) :suspect:

Did you ever see the picture of a distraught firefighter holding the body of a baby in his arms after
Oklahoma? The grief of this nation after 9/11 is beyond belief. I am a 200 lb male and those days can still brihg tears to my eyes. And now we face something this nation has never seen before, and we are angry!
Don't tell me that people were left in NO because they were black, how dare you!
This forum which I have a right to be a part of because I'm a Sheffielder just like you, has become more a battle between those who like the US and those who don't
None of this helps those in need, if you can't help or don't want to, fine, but don't kick a country when it's down.
We hear so much about how rich we are, how super powerful we are. So everone of us is living the good life, burning gasoline like it was no tomorrow, not caring about the environment? Whatever happened to me. I struggle as much as anybody
I wonder why I can't find these everyones day to day/ But then I don't come to America once in a while for a fortnight holday and declare to my wondering public that I'm an expert
We need to get over whatever it is that's troubling us. If two old allies get broken up, lord help the world we know.

Buck. I'm very pro-American but I tell you friend that I keep wondering if this would have happened in say, Beverly Hills, would the response have been so late in coming ?. I read on the net where tourists from one of the hotels were given precedence on boarding the evacuation busses over people in the Superdome who had been there for days. I honestly suspect that these were white tourists. I realise that the circumstances could probably justify this but its terrible PR. Hopefully things are improving. God Bless America.

Remembering that they had some warning of the hurricane so they could prepare a little and evacuate most of the people, can you imagine what would happen if there was an unplanned event such as major earthquake in San Fransisco or wherever ? Hopefully they will have learnt some lessons from all this. The sooner the better as there are more hurricanes forecast and hopefully they will get the levees sorted before they come....

Once again, Chuffinell, I don't know if racism came into it. I'd like to think it didn't. But look where it happened. I hate to think any part of the old south exists, but I'm not sure.
I only know that when I sought citizenship it was easy, I admit it, though I don't defend it. How can you after years of trying not grasp at straws.
I left my beloved Canada after nine years only because my company wanted me to save a bad situation in New England. I had lived in Montreal, the Gaspe, and Newfoundland with the paper industry from control skills I had learned from working with the steel industry at Davy United. I continue to go up every chance I get.
This nation needs to take another look at itself, and decide who it wants to lead it. The administration that leads it now is destroying it

hello, buck

Someone's obviously taken control somewhere because things seem to be moving along better now. Have just been listening to two young UK CampAmerica workers on the BBC who were taken to the Dome and just left to get on with it. It seems things were even worse inside than we suspected.

I've read the thread and then reread most of it in the light of your comments. I honestly can't see where we're being anti American ... it IS a shambles and the OFFICIAL response has been abysmal ...

It's a great thing to be so proud of your adopted country but don't be blind to its faults. I know we Sheffielders are always being told off for calling our city but at least we aren't wearing blinkers and are prepared for the worse if it ever happens :D

You seem to be changing your tune a little today though, from saying originally that America doesn't need any help from outside to saying that the Buch administration is destroying it ... we're all wishing you well anyway, I think you've just been reading us wrong ...

I think Buck is right. I wonder what the reponse would have been if the majority of the refugees had been white ?

Originally posted by buck

This nation needs to take another look at itself, and decide who it wants to lead it. The administration that leads it now is destroying it

And destroying itself. I imagine there will be a huge backlash when the final body count is done. It's looking worse than Galveston already.

Originally posted by pattricia
I think Buck is right. I wonder what the reponse would have been if the majority of the refugees had been white ?

me too, pages ago (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=578343#post578343) :rolleyes:



God bless America :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Greybeard
And destroying itself. I imagine there will be a huge backlash when the final body count is done. It's looking worse than Galveston already.

I think the events of the last week in New Orleans have been a psychic shock to the whole of the Western world.

It's become patently obvious that even Western governments hold the lives of their own citizens very cheaply.

As Westerners, prior to last week, I think we generally felt secure that our governments would do their best to provide us with protection - they might not always succeed, but the will was there and they would genuinely do what they could to keep us safe.

However, I believe the existing status quo has been shaken by the unbelievable dereliction of its duty towards its own people displayed by the American government this week.

Goodness knows what the ultimate fallout will be.

StarSparkle

I participated earlier in other threads and have not read the full content of this but what is *remarkable* is....

a) huge loss of life as a result of recent natural disaster

b) huge communication problems regarding relief for those involved

c) not a economic city like New York....:suspect:

d) no official remembrance silence as noted in this (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58595) thread!

am I just being over sensitive or is the American government playing a part in this pitiful response???

I dunno what to think...the American people seem as dumbfounded as us...:confused:

I see on the BBC site that they have shipped in 25,000 body bags and are preparing a morgue for at least 5,000 dead

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4224912.stm

Bush is to ask Congress for an extra $51.8bn to fund relief efforts...

Bush doesn't really care about what people think now does he- he is in his second term now!

Watch this (http://www.auraka.org/katrina256.wmv) and weep as I did!! :cry:

Oh and read this (http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/)

:wow:

and still nothing was done by the American Government!!

Shea Penland's comments were made in October 2004!!

The chances of such a storm hitting New Orleans in any given year are slight, but the danger is growing. Climatologists predict that powerful storms may occur more frequently this century, while rising sea level from global warming is putting low-lying coasts at greater risk. "It's not if it will happen," says University of New Orleans geologist Shea Penland. "It's when." !!!!


Still... over one week on and no official 2 minutes silence either! Doubt it is going to happen now...:(

I do not think it's racism. Doesn't make sense. Many who died were white, tourists, old people, amputees.

I do remember on Tuesday and again this was on Drudgereport.com (look under past headlines).. this was Tuesday before there were any real efforts to save people, that there would be minimal economic impact on America.

I am devastated by this. Its far away from me, but this is senseless.

Blame lies all over. And it is certainly not a game, as some people have implied. I am sure local officials have made mistakes. The fact is that over 80% of NO was evacuated in little over a day. That's a pretty amazing figure.

The state did issue a state of emergency on Saturday, August 27:. Here is the actual text.

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=973

So now what we see if politicians trying to spin this as if it's a local problem, to deflect blame from themselves. Can any of you honestly say, that even if they didn't issue a letter to the federal government that the government knowing on Sunday how bad this would be (CAT 5 and direct hit was correctly expected), should have sat and done nothing. Forget the spin, do you think that is acceptable? Do you think when the storm is nearly there the safest place is in a house or on foot trying to flee?

On top of that FEMA are to blame the most. The guy who runs FEMA is just terrible. On Thursday he said he didn't know anything about the 20,000 in the bowl. We had all been watching the pictures from there for two days, and he said that. It was Monday that we all saw two wholes being ripped in the superbowl roof. This guy was fired from his last job, in a horse breeding association.

On Thursday before there were even 2500 troop in NO, the house speaker (my member of congress) was talking about rebuilding New Orleans "doesn't make sense to me."

Hundreds of reports of people getting in and out of the city before the Federal agencies did.

I have sat here and watched staged photo opportunity after staged photo opportunity. With backdrops of Helicopters that should have been out rescuing people, but were clearly more needed as a nice backdrop for a photo.

Two helicopter pilots were reprimanded for saving hundreds. Now the pilots from the same base have taken their life saving badges from their uniforms in protest. Firemen were used for photo ops, told they could not help. Police from neighboring towns set up road blocks to stop people entering their state. They were turned away, bridges were blocked.

This is a CATEGORY of errors. Hundreds of small errors have killed thousands. Nobody know what the toll will be, but morgues have been told to expect 40,000. I hope it will be less.

I am dismayed with the spin machine in this country. I am dismayed by people making excuses. There are no excuses. If you do not appropriate blame at the correct people, it's not fixed. Then what? What if there is a huge terrorist attack? With no 2 day warning? Will the Federal government say it was the states fault because they did not ask for help? How could they say that? Scientist have been predicting this for 20 years, 20 years and nothing was done. It's not just Bush. It's Clinton, it's Bush senior. They ignored the threat. They knew the levees would only contain a CAT 3 and they knew a CAT 4-5 was inevitable. It was just a matter of time, and NO ran out of time.

But if a huge financial center was in NO, it would have been protected, because it would have had a huge effect on the economy. They played a game of risk. They have been talking about cost to benefit reports on the news here and how that is a justification for not doing the work. Human lives were never included in those costs.

I am sorry if I have upset anybody, call me anti-American. Try to deflect the issue. But I am not, I am upset and angry. This is sensless.

The thing that shocked me abot the pictures we are seeing is that it is something I would expect to see in Indonesia but not in the wealthiest nation in the world. I thin it is easy to assume that if something happened like this in the western world that we'd obviously sort it out straight away. Maybe this just isn't the case. Nature takes no account of how affluent a country is.

And it's not just the politician spinning this disaster for political gain...

<http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html >"Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city," stated Repent America director Michael Marcavage. "From 'Girls Gone Wild' to 'Southern Decadence,' New Orleans was a city that had its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin. From the devastation may a city full of righteousness emerge," he continued.

<http://www.godhatesfags.com/featured/20050831_thank-god-for-katrina.html > "Thank God for Katrina"

<http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46090> "A national talk-radio host believes the severity of Hurricane Katrina is clear evidence that civilization is now in the 'End Times' described in the Bible. "

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05247/565364.stm "In my belief, God judged New Orleans for the sin of shedding innocent blood through abortion," said Lefemine, who e-mailed the flesh-toned weather map to fellow activists across the country and put a stark message on the answering machine of his organization, Columbia Christians for Life.

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/printer_9323.shtml
The question now remains: Where else will the Lord strike in order to bring the world community to its senses before His judgment throne? Time will tell.

I think Bush must have been reading this thread - he's declared Sept 16th a national day of prayer and remembrance :thumbsup:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4227974.stm

A great picture of George Bush (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/09/bush_caption.jpg) - not a lot to add to that :rolleyes: