As the BBC has reported, the US obesity rates are on the rise and in some peoples view out of control.

What happens in the US usually is a precursor to what happens here.

Quote from the BBC news article
This year on year rise in obesity...has been mirrored in the UK

So how can we tackle this problem?

Should we tax fat people because being fat makes you vastly more likely to have heart problems or diabetes which in turn puts a strain on an already over stretched NHS?

Should we tax the source in much the same way fuel is massively over taxed in the UK and put huge taxes on food especially food which is bad for you.

Should the government subsidise gym and sports club membership (where you actually do a sport) to help people get in shape and live healthier lives?

Or are there any other ways we can tackle it? Or do we need to tackle it?

BBC Article - US people getting fatter, fast
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4183086.stm

Raise awareness of all the issues, let people make their own decisions, have help & support & advice on hand. I don't think anything else is fair.

Would it not be cheaper to just shoot them?

taxing fast food would probably help.

But the root cause is education, so the solution is education.
give people the ability to choose alternatives.

If some people had a modicum of self control when it came to their eating habits then we'd not be needing reinforced ambulances, enlarged x-ray machines or the like.

Instead of ramming turkey twizzlers cooked in lard down their throats washed down with fizzy pop why not try to take exercise, eat some, have some proper food. But no, It's easier to eat crap, stay idle and sit there saying "Oh, but it's water retention" Here's a newsflash for you, it's not water retention, it's cake retention.

I think a "tax" on rubbish food implemented in a similiar way that the government are trying to tax fags to death.

After all if we're gonna have a nanny state why stop at just one unhealthy lifestyle choice?

Exactly, I'm not keen on the 'nanny state' at all, so educate people, encourage them to be healthy, but ultimately leave them to make their own decions. Who are we to enforce anything on anyone?!

Taxing fast food is a good idea.

I actually can’t think of any positive can be derived from fast / junk food. They make Millions from their products but give nothing back. Well except mounds of rubbish around their stores and employing surly, spotty teenagers :D

Maybe they should stop eating foods that are unhealthy and take regular exercise.

Originally posted by serapis
Taxing fast food is a good idea.

I actually can’t think of any positive can be derived from fast / junk food. They make Millions from their products but give nothing back. Well except mounds of rubbish around their stores and employing surly, spotty teenagers :D
Thats a crap idea, why should i (when i am not over weight) have to pay tax if i want the occasional takeaway etc.

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
If some people had a modicum of self control when it came to their eating habits then we'd not be needing reinforced ambulances, enlarged x-ray machines or the like.

Instead of ramming turkey twizzlers cooked in lard down their throats washed down with fizzy pop why not try to take exercise, eat some, have some proper food. But no, It's easier to eat crap, stay idle and sit there saying "Oh, but it's water retention" Here's a newsflash for you, it's not water retention, it's cake retention.

as a slightly overwight guy i do agree with most of this post, however i eat healthily(ish). i have my veg portions every day etc.
eat minimal prepared foods, however i have an issue with bread & spuds - i adore them and guess what, when i eat them i put on weight.
also sat ina car for a job every day working into the evenings doesn't allow a) much time to exercise
b) opportunity to eat healthily all the time.

people sat behind desks working 9-5 should think themselves lucky that they can control themselves easily.

Originally posted by DaisyBoo
Maybe they should stop eating foods that are unhealthy and take regular exercise.

That’s my point, we need to give people a helpful push in the right direction. We do it with fags and petrol why not food?

I understand not all fat people are lazy but it has become a collective excuse for being fat these days though that it’s something genetic and thus out of their control!

Originally posted by DaisyBoo
Thats a crap idea, why should i (when i am not over weight) have to pay tax if i want the occasional takeaway etc.

OK, I like the occasional cigarette, so why should I be taxed for that?

Here in China , where I'm working , the obesity problem is just beginning to appear [that's if you see it as a problem , of course ].
Apparently , more and more children in the East of China are having obesity problems and the government is connecting it to the increased affluence in the East of China , vis-a vis , the West of China. More children in the East watch t.v , play computer games and go everywhere by taxi or family car. The problem is virtually unknown in the poorer provinces of the West.
Maybe it 's a " problem " of affluence and is practically insoluble in the foreseeable future.
China hasn't yet reached the stage , as in Britain , where every 4th. person you see , seems to be a balloon on legs -------------but they're getting there !

Originally posted by DaisyBoo
Maybe they should stop eating foods that are unhealthy and take regular exercise.

this is not a dig at daisyboo but the comment is common. however the choice is not available for everyone,
oh & guess what healthy people die or need hospital.

perhaps we should ban mountain climbing,mountaib biking,judo,karate,rugby,football. there are more work hours lost due to accidents involving "pastimes" than being overweight.

Have another bus/tube strike, or petrol blockade.
It must have done people a world of good last time when they had no choice but to walk to work.

Originally posted by serapis
OK, I like the occasional cigarette, so why should I be taxed for that?

You don't pay the tax. I do when you nick them off me :D

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
You don't pay the tax. I do when you nick them off me :D

And much appreciated they are :blush: :D

Tax fast food? Is it not dear enough already?

Its got to be down to education....of both kids and parents.

Originally posted by willman
this is not a dig at daisyboo but the comment is common. however the choice is not available for everyone,
oh & guess what healthy people die or need hospital.

perhaps we should ban mountain climbing,mountaib biking,judo,karate,rugby,football. there are more work hours lost due to accidents involving "pastimes" than being overweight.
You are talking out of your ass, and what you have written doesn't even make sense.

What do you mean 'the choice is not avaliable to everyone' the
choice of what??

I think taxing food is a better idea than just taxing fat people. Some fat people genuinely can't help it. I agree that most, like myself, simply eat too much of the wrong things and don't do enough exercise. But that's not always all there is to it.

Anyway, taxing the food will give fat people who are trying to lose weight an extra incentive - the smug satisfaction that the skinny gits who pig out all the time but never put on weight are paying more tax. :)

Originally posted by DaisyBoo
You are talking out of your ass, and what you have written doesn't even make sense.

What do you mean 'the choice is not avaliable to everyone' the
choice of what??


wot doesn't make sense.
u either haven't read it correctly or u need the post explaining to you.

the fact that all the healthy self opinionated asses aren't gonna die or need a hospital. find me a hospital full of fatties & i'll believe you.

if u spend 10-12 hours per day working on the road, it isn't easy to pop home & cook a nice healthy tea neither is it easy in the back of beyond to find a healthy eating establishment at all time.

why should fatter people be penalised or criticised for using hospital services.
healthy people have more time off work ill through healthy sport accidents that any illness relating to being overweight. so who is putting more of a drain on resources.
if u dont believe me ask your GP about the broken legs etc when football season starts.
this costs doctors time, time off work, possible hospital treatment.

either accept your not right or shut up.

Originally posted by willman
perhaps we should ban mountain climbing,mountaib biking,judo,karate,rugby,football. there are more work hours lost due to accidents involving "pastimes" than being overweight.

The American Obesity Association commissioned a cost study in 1999 by the Lewin Group, a respected health economics consulting firm. The Lewin Group examined the costs of fifteen (15) conditions causally related to obesity. They included: arthritis, breast cancer, heart disease, colorectal cancer, type 2 diabetes, endometrial cancer, end-stage renal disease, gallbladder disease, hypertension, liver disease, low back pain, renal cell cancer, obstructive sleep apnea, stroke and urinary incontinence. Utilizing the National Health Interview Survey in 1995 and the third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III) databases, they established prevalence rates of each comorbid condition.

For each condition, the percentage of the cost of each disease was determined through the scientific literature or professional associations and were computed according to the percent of the costs attributed to obesity. This method established the direct health care costs of obesity at $102.2 billion in 1999.

This worked out that over 30% of the cost associated with these illnesses was attributed to obesity

Originally posted by willman

why should fatter people be penalised or criticised for using hospital services.
.

True Will they shouldn't but the govt seem quite happy to do it to smokers so it might not be too long away.

At the minute its one rule for one group of people and one for another.

I'm not that sure that the so-called 'problem' isn't simply that we notice such things more often these days. There are not significantly more overweight people now than when I was a youngster, just as there seem to be no more drinkers or smokers. But such things make good media stories these days because we all love to get self-righteous about other people for some reason! Ditto kids' behaviour, single mums, immigrants, etc etc etc.....

Tax on junk food is far too simplistic. It could be just about any food bar celery that makes people put on weight. For some it is indeed junk food, but for others its expense account dinners at The Ivy. The tax works on cigs and ale. What generally causes lung cancer? Cigs. What causes alcoholism? Um...alcohol? But weight gain can be down to all kinds of things, not just Big Macs.

serapis - this is the second question about 'restricting behaviour' I've seen you post lately (t'other was the betting one). Have you read The Road To Wigan Pier? Orwell makes a point in there about 1930's families on the dole spending all their cash on tea and ice creams - he came to the conclusion that basically it's all about having something to look forwrads to when life's pretty miserable. I can see his point. I can afford to do what the heck I want, but for some people a cheap treat like a Big Mac or a bet might be the highlight of their day.

Originally posted by the_rudeboy
The American Obesity Association commissioned a cost study in 1999 by the Lewin Group, a respected health economics consulting firm. The Lewin Group examined the costs of fifteen (15) conditions causally related to obesity. They included: arthritis, breast cancer, heart disease, colorectal cancer, type 2 diabetes, endometrial cancer, end-stage renal disease, gallbladder disease, hypertension, liver disease, low back pain, renal cell cancer, obstructive sleep apnea, stroke and urinary incontinence. Utilizing the National Health Interview Survey in 1995 and the third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III) databases, they established prevalence rates of each comorbid condition.

For each condition, the percentage of the cost of each disease was determined through the scientific literature or professional associations and were computed according to the percent of the costs attributed to obesity. This method established the direct health care costs of obesity at $102.2 billion in 1999.



This worked out that over 30% of the cost associated with these illnesses was attributed to obesity



but unfortunately just like comments on 4x4's we're not in america. larger population, different culture & ethnic mix. we are about 10 years behind USA with the introduction of Macd's, kfc etc.
we are also talking about USa costing's for medication.
i dont disagree that "potentially" "self abuse" - smoking,drinking ,overeating puts some pressure on the NHS. however carte blanche comments that are being "thrown up" are pathetic.
just 'cos i weigh more than anothe person doesn't mean i'll cost the nhs more money.
tax macd's & kfc is fine then skinny bints will have to pay extra - i'm fine with that kind of thing.

Originally posted by Saifa
True Will they shouldn't but the govt seem quite happy to do it to smokers so it might not be too long away.

At the minute its one rule for one group of people and one for another.

it's quite simple. When you do something that increases your risk of disease it costs me money. Part of my taxes go towards the NHS which has a duty to care for smokers, obese people and the rest of us.
If the smokers all quit and the obese got slim, the NHS would cost less and so we could all have a tax cut.
(Except that smokers already pay through tax on cigarettes, so they can carry on if they like, just not near me).

Originally posted by Mathom
I'm not that sure that the so-called 'problem' isn't simply that we notice such things more often these days. There are not significantly more overweight people now than when I was a youngster, just as there seem to be no more drinkers or smokers. But such things make good media stories these days because we all love to get self-righteous about other people for some reason! Ditto kids' behaviour, single mums, immigrants, etc etc etc.....

Tax on junk food is far too simplistic. It could be just about any food bar celery that makes people put on weight. For some it is indeed junk food, but for others its expense account dinners at The Ivy. The tax works on cigs and ale. What generally causes lung cancer? Cigs. What causes alcoholism? Um...alcohol? But weight gain can be down to all kinds of things, not just Big Macs.

serapis - this is the second question about 'restricting behaviour' I've seen you post lately (t'other was the betting one). Have you read The Road To Wigan Pier? Orwell makes a point in there about 1930's families on the dole spending all their cash on tea and ice creams - he came to the conclusion that basically it's all about having something to look forwrads to when life's pretty miserable. I can see his point. I can afford to do what the heck I want, but for some people a cheap treat like a Big Mac or a bet might be the highlight of their day.

No, actually obesity has increased pretty dramatically in the last 10 years. Particularly amongst children.

Originally posted by Mathom
I'm not that sure that the so-called 'problem' isn't simply that we notice such things more often these days. There are not significantly more overweight people now than when I was a youngster, just as there seem to be no more drinkers or smokers. But such things make good media stories these days because we all love to get self-righteous about other people for some reason! Ditto kids' behaviour, single mums, immigrants, etc etc etc.....


This is from the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4183086.stm

"This year on year rise in obesity...has been mirrored in the UK".
Dr Ian Campbell, chairman of the UK National Obesity Forum

So it looks that yes there are more obese people now than before.

Originally posted by Mathom
serapis - this is the second question about 'restricting behaviour'

Yes you're right, but i do try to stay away from siding with one idea or another. I’m just posing a question to see what people’s views are. I’m not advocating the introduction of any of my posts, just interested in people’s views that’s all.

OK I'm going to play devil's advocate now.

If we are going to have taxes to prevent certain illnesses/conditions, can we have a tax on stupid people? You get all these stupid people who ignore the advice and go out and have unprotected sex and get STDs. Why should I have to pay for their treatment at the clap clinic just because they are stupid? And as for people who take their chances crossing the road away from the traffic lights? Don;t get me started! Those kids who spend 4 hours straight on the PlayStation right get on my nerves. they are so thick! You're only supposed to spend 50 minutes a time! Why should I pay for them to have subsised eye tests?

Of course, the above is not my opinion...but you get the idea. All we can do is guide people.

I think the problem is clear:

Making people fat makes money. Making fat people want to become thin again makes money. Making thin people think they are fat and want to lose weight makes money.

If everyone ate healthy food they'd prepared themselves all the time and was a nice healthy weight, the food industry would collapse.

Lets not pretend no-one has a vested interest in the eating habits of the country! You can 'educate' all you like, but what chance do a few teachers, government ministers, jamie oliver and gillian mckeith have against literally thousands of advertising messages per day?

Actually, on the whole it IS possible for people just to eat less and do more.

Even if you're on the road 12 hours a day, what's to stop you taking a break, getting some fruit, healthier sandwiches, etc?

I'm overweight because I eat too much and excercise too little - I'm not proud of myself but I'll admit that it's my problem and I need to work on it because otherwise it will give me trouble later in life.

It is MY responsibility - not society, not the NHS.

I currently take medication for elevated BP which is due mainly to teh extra weight I carry around my tummy. It's my job to get rid of that, and my GP's job to help me along until I do. Ultimately, I want to be off the meds.

People are not born obese (well, excluding the minority with metabolic problems) - they develop weight problems due to lifestyle choices made over a number of years.

I know how to lead a lifestyle that gains weight, and also how to lose weight. It's just that I've chosen a lifestyle that's more conducive to gaining it until recently.

It IS, for the most part, personal choice. Sure, it may be difficult to change, but that is up to individuals.

Joe

Originally posted by serapis
This is from the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4183086.stm

"This year on year rise in obesity...has been mirrored in the UK".
Dr Ian Campbell, chairman of the UK National Obesity Forum

So it looks that yes there are more obese people now than before.



It does depend though on how this is measured as there are different methods: Body mass index, waist size, weight to height ratio etc. Due to there being no objective standard, many people are included in these figures who are actually extremely fit, yet they are large with muscle mass, including sports people.

Possibly this is due to a feeling of panic amongst the medical profession fostered by the media (who have a financial interest in making us scared). It's the Bogey Man effect, getting us all so scared of ourselves and each other that we cannot stop and get a perspective on it.

There is a big tax on alcohol which has not made much difference to the drain on the NHS resourses.
I read that alcohol related llnesses were a big drain on the NHS
.As well as filling up the A & E clinics with people who are drunk and have either injured themselves or harmed others.
So why do you think a tax on food would make any diffrence.

hazel

Serapis - I don't always agree with your views, but this is a brilliant thread and you've made some very good points on it. The health of this nation and the growing fast food industry is something we should all be concerned about.

And why not tax the fast food outlets? They make so much money from feeding us crap they should at least bear the consequences on the NHS.


Originally posted by willman
if u spend 10-12 hours per day working on the road, it isn't easy to pop home & cook a nice healthy tea neither is it easy in the back of beyond to find a healthy eating establishment at all time.


And Willman - I too work very long hours and spend a lot of time on the road, but I still manage to pack myself a healthy lunch to take to work each day. It takes two minutes to make up a sandwich, small salad and grab a piece of fruit.

One thing I really don't like about some larger people (and you seem to fall into this category) is their determination to blame everybody and everything but themselves for their size, meanwhile slinging bitter insluts at slimmer people.

Well done to JoeP for admitting that his size was his own fault. That's a very brave comment to make, and I wish him good health. :thumbsup:

A friend of mine always says: "There were no fat people in Auschwitz." Eat less, exercise more. Simple!

given that the majority of people aren't obese, there are either some people who are highly susceptible to marketing, or there are some who are too lazy to exercise and don't care for some reason.

If the government was really interested and the problem was what you suggest Kathy then they could outlaw food avertising the same way they have done tobacco advertising.

Originally posted by JBee
Serapis - I don't always agree with your views, but this is a brilliant thread and you've made some very good points on it. The health of this nation and the growing fast food industry is something we should all be concerned about.

And why not tax the fast food outlets? They make so much money from feeding us crap they should at least bear the consequences on the NHS.




And Willman - I too work very long hours and spend a lot of time on the road, but I still manage to pack myself a healthy lunch to take to work each day. It takes two minutes to make up a sandwich, small salad and grab a piece of fruit.

One thing I really don't like about some larger people (and you seem to fall into this category) is their determination to blame everybody and everything but themselves for their size, meanwhile slinging bitter insluts at slimmer people.

Well done to JoeP for admitting that his size was his own fault. That's a very brave comment to make. :thumbsup:

A friend of mine always says: "There were no fat people in Auschwitz." Eat less, exercise more. Simple!


i agree here. i'm not blaming anyone for my size. i weigh more than i would like.
however at age 21 i weighed 10 stone.at twice that age i weigh 14stone so the increase has been gradual, but due in part to my work culture over the years.
my daughter is a size 6 & eats the same as me (aged 20), i'm not bitter at slim people just there "better than you " attutude.

as i said before though, i cycle twice a week, play badminton competitivley twice a week and have 5 dogs to walk.i'm not unfit just overweight.

actually work can make it very difficult.

Now, i'm pretty fit, but I have a lot of colleagues who aren't.

The reason is that if you work very long days probably 10 - 12 hours, leave the client site and go to a hotel where you eat on expenses and do that 4 days a week for most weeks of the year it's requires more than the average amount of willpower to stay in shape.

I make a point of using the hotel gym (indeed, I make a point of finding a hotel with a gym), I don't always want too and it's a real struggle when all I really want to do is lie on the bed and doze.
I try not to eat too much unhealthy food, or just too much food. Which again can be a struggle, i'm eating later than i'd like, so when ordering i'm pretty hungry. Couple that with £30 to spend and it's very easy to order more than you need.

Breakfast is likewise a challenge, cooked breakfast on tap, difficult to turn down sometimes. And the chance of packing a healthy lunch, none, I have to eat whatever I can buy locally for lunch.

It's easier for some people, working 9 - 5 and always home to your own house at night makes most things in life easier.
But it's still possible even if work makes it harder for you, it just takes a bit more determination and willpower.

Mathom - Obesity is quite well defined and I doubt that it ever catches many sports people in it's category.
Overweight is less well defined, and as you say can produce odd results, power lifters for example will generally show up as heavily overweight on a simple bmi scale.
Fortunately health professionals are aware of this and have nothing to gain by producing stupid figures.

Originally posted by JBee

Well done to JoeP for admitting that his size was his own fault. That's a very brave comment to make, and I wish him good health. :thumbsup:

[/B]

Thanks - the irony is that most of me is thin but I have a tummy - which is the worst place to carry fat (chemicals produced by that fat increase your BP, apparently) and is also the hardest place to lose it from.

But, I will persevere!

Joe

Originally posted by willman
we're not in america. larger population, different culture & ethnic mix. we are about 10 years behind USA with the introduction of Macd's, kfc etc.
we are also talking about USa costing's for medication.


True. But do you think we are that different?

Should we not take this as a warning?.....10 years is not long.

Originally posted by JoeP
Thanks - the irony is that most of me is thin but I have a tummy - which is the worst place to carry fat (chemicals produced by that fat increase your BP, apparently) and is also the hardest place to lose it from.


My wine-gut is my only problem area, it's mostly down to my age I think, I just don't burn off calories like I used to when I was younger. I don't worry about it though, it just p*sses me off that I have got jeans I can't get into anymore.

Originally posted by the_rudeboy
True. But do you think we are that different?

Should we not take this as a warning?.....10 years is not long.

no i think we're going exactly the same way, our lifestyle does seem to emulate the usa.

if the provision of real healthier food was available then p'haps people like myself would not suffer by being over indulgent on crap to try to feel full or not hungry.
i have tried this week to test my theory & the closest u can get is tesco/morrisons jacket spud (without "fat" fillings) or salad with deep fried scampi.

Originally posted by willman
no i think we're going exactly the same way, our lifestyle does seem to emulate the usa.

if the provision of real healthier food was available then p'haps people like myself would not suffer by being over indulgent on crap to try to feel full or not hungry.
i have tried this week to test my theory & the closest u can get is tesco/morrisons jacket spud (without "fat" fillings) or salad with deep fried scampi.

Tesco's and Morrisons are not the only places you can eat from. How about making yourself some healthy food at home and taking it to work?

been there done that, however salad tastes abit manky after 8 hours in a hot car & i do find a bit unappetising.

always have fruit in the car usually grapes 'cos they;re easier to eat whilst driving.
i'm a bit like cyclone when you're with clients it tends to be restaurants otherwise the more prolific establishments are the supermarkets or fast food joints.
supermarkets are the lesser of two evils.

when bloaters go to hospital they should have to pay "top up" fees for medical treatment if it is related to their gluttony... :clap:

That would reduce the problem!

Originally posted by serapis
As the BBC has reported, the US obesity rates are on the rise and in some peoples view out of control.

What happens in the US usually is a precursor to what happens here.

Quote from the BBC news article
This year on year rise in obesity...has been mirrored in the UK

So how can we tackle this problem?

Should we tax fat people because being fat makes you vastly more likely to have heart problems or diabetes which in turn puts a strain on an already over stretched NHS?

Should we tax the source in much the same way fuel is massively over taxed in the UK and put huge taxes on food especially food which is bad for you.

Should the government subsidise gym and sports club membership (where you actually do a sport) to help people get in shape and live healthier lives?

Or are there any other ways we can tackle it? Or do we need to tackle it?

BBC Article - US people getting fatter, fast
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4183086.stm

Originally posted by Mathom
It does depend though on how this is measured as there are different methods: Body mass index, waist size, weight to height ratio etc. Due to there being no objective standard, many people are included in these figures who are actually extremely fit, yet they are large with muscle mass, including sports people.

BMI is pretty much a waste of time. Unfortunately it's what insurance companies use.

However, I'd argue that percentage body fat is an objective measure. Unfortunately it's not a simple thing to measure.

My 2p worth on this subject:

From a society point of view the worrying thing is the rise in obesity in children. Education is one thing but we really need to be encouraging kids to do more sports. I guess with us getting the olympics there will be some investment in facilities etc over the coming years BUT we should be investing in ALL sports and not just those where we might get medals. Providing the facilities and opportunities for kids is a must.

If nothing is done then this problem will put an incredible strain on our society. It is a time bomb - the effects of which will not be felt until many years down the line when it will be too late.

Nomme

Originally posted by nomme
BMI is pretty much a waste of time. Unfortunately it's what insurance companies use.

However, I'd argue that percentage body fat is an objective measure. Unfortunately it's not a simple thing to measure.

My 2p worth on this subject:

From a society point of view the worrying thing is the rise in obesity in children. Education is one thing but we really need to be encouraging kids to do more sports. I guess with us getting the olympics there will be some investment in facilities etc over the coming years BUT we should be investing in ALL sports and not just those where we might get medals. Providing the facilities and opportunities for kids is a must.

If nothing is done then this problem will put an incredible strain on our society. It is a time bomb - the effects of which will not be felt until many years down the line when it will be too late.

Nomme

convincing paranoid parents that the little darlings can walk to school and play outside without being kidnapped would probably help.

Originally posted by Big_Dipper
when bloaters go to hospital they should have to pay "top up" fees for medical treatment if it is related to their gluttony... :clap:

That would reduce the problem!

reduce what problem exactly.

when drunks go for wounds stitching - should they be made to pay.?
when sports people go for physio or surgery on knees etc - should they pay?

you pay you money & make your choice.

if i'm fat and never use the nhs can i get a refund?

what about ladies who need help to get pregnant - that can be related to weight, should they be made to pay all the time.

what about overweight ladies with large bussoms who want reductions should they have to pay?

(i use the term overweight but even thats ambiguous.)

Originally posted by nomme
BMI is pretty much a waste of time. Unfortunately it's what insurance companies use.

However, I'd argue that percentage body fat is an objective measure. Unfortunately it's not a simple thing to measure.

My 2p worth on this subject:

From a society point of view the worrying thing is the rise in obesity in children. Education is one thing but we really need to be encouraging kids to do more sports. I guess with us getting the olympics there will be some investment in facilities etc over the coming years BUT we should be investing in ALL sports and not just those where we might get medals. Providing the facilities and opportunities for kids is a must.

If nothing is done then this problem will put an incredible strain on our society. It is a time bomb - the effects of which will not be felt until many years down the line when it will be too late.

Nomme

I think the majority are aware of the problem, whether some care or not is arguable.

I completely agree, but things move very slow in this country.

Originally posted by Cyclone
convincing paranoid parents that the little darlings can walk to school and play outside without being kidnapped would probably help.

:clap: :clap:

So true

Originally posted by Cyclone
given that the majority of people aren't obese, there are either some people who are highly susceptible to marketing, or there are some who are too lazy to exercise and don't care for some reason.

If the government was really interested and the problem was what you suggest Kathy then they could outlaw food avertising the same way they have done tobacco advertising.

Yes, there are people who are highly suceptible to marketing (children, for example?) and there are some too lazy to exercise, and there are some who don't care. There are mums who give their kids a bag of crisps for tea and people who drink 14 pints of lager a night.

I'm not saying people shouldn't take responsibilty for their own lifestyles (I eat healthy food and exercise!) - I'm saying in a debate about obesity you can't ignore the massive clout the supermarkets and food industries have in making health policy and influencing diet and lifestyle through marketing.

it would reduce costs to the NHS and encourage the bloater to lose weight improving their health, thus reducing more costs for the NHS.

Yes - drunks should pay too.

No, sportspeople shouldn't pay, as they are taking exercise as a way of improving their health, injuries are unanticipated.

People who go hill walking in remote areas and then get lost etc should however pay some contribution towards the rescue party/helicopter etc.

Your 2 categories of preggers bloaters should also have to pay.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by willman
reduce what problem exactly.

when drunks go for wounds stitching - should they be made to pay.?
when sports people go for physio or surgery on knees etc - should they pay?

you pay you money & make your choice.

if i'm fat and never use the nhs can i get a refund?

what about ladies who need help to get pregnant - that can be related to weight, should they be made to pay all the time.

what about overweight ladies with large bussoms who want reductions should they have to pay?

(i use the term overweight but even thats ambiguous.)

Originally posted by Big_Dipper
it would reduce costs to the NHS and encourage the bloater to lose weight improving their health, thus reducing more costs for the NHS.

Yes - drunks should pay too.

No, sportspeople shouldn't pay, as they are taking exercise as a way of improving their health, injuries are unanticipated.

People who go hill walking in remote areas and then get lost etc should however pay some contribution towards the rescue party/helicopter etc.

Your 2 categories of preggers bloaters should also have to pay.

:thumbsup:

so basically if i'm a sports person and a bloater i can get free nhs still?
just thinking of shot putters, geoff capes types, lots of rugby players are technically overweight for the heights.

why should "skinny" people be allowed to get narcissistic treatment free i.e breast augmentation

some judgement would have to be made, but what I am saying in principle is by charging people you can make them bahave differently, which improves their health, I also think it is fairer for most people concerned.

In todays society the best way to get people to do something is relating it to money, either having to pay more or receiving an incentive.

Originally posted by willman
so basically if i'm a sports person and a bloater i can get free nhs still?
just thinking of shot putters, geoff capes types, lots of rugby players are technically overweight for the heights.

why should "skinny" people be allowed to get narcissistic treatment free i.e breast augmentation

How to lose weight? Easy:

Eat and drink less calories than you burn.

So, either: exercise more, eat less, or accept your gonna be a bit lardy!

skinny birds would have to pay for a boob job in my opinion. Perhaps they could do a bit of lapdancing to pay for it, that way utilising their improved assets.

Originally posted by willman
so basically if i'm a sports person and a bloater i can get free nhs still?
just thinking of shot putters, geoff capes types, lots of rugby players are technically overweight for the heights.

why should "skinny" people be allowed to get narcissistic treatment free i.e breast augmentation

Dicko - you're correct. I could make a fortune from the maxim "eat less do more".

Yup, it's that easy. So why do more people not do that? Um, lots of reasons. Lack of time. Lack of money. No willpower. Lack of education. A strong ego. Feel fit anyway. Psychological disorder. Couldn't give a damn. Beer. Wine. Lager. Chocolate. Stress. Sedentary jobs. Genetic predisposition. Giving birth. Getting old. Comfort eating. The list could go on.

Reducing NHS costs is no real argument as we could then take this a step further and charge for treatment for anyone with the following: injuries from RTAs, climbing, cycling, swimming, DIY, etc etc etc; eye strain from reading too much; cancer from eating non-organic veg, living by a busy road, inhaling nail polish etc etc etc; earache from using cotton buds; spondylitis and RSI from having a desk job; gonnorrhoea from being promiscuous etc. Everything is subject to cause and effect.

Cyclone - I know what you mean about the distinction between clinical obesity and being 'overweight' - but these stories make no distinction between the two. A woman with a belly after having had kids is classed as 'obese' according to media standards.

Originally posted by willman
no i think we're going exactly the same way, our lifestyle does seem to emulate the usa.

if the provision of real healthier food was available then p'haps people like myself would not suffer by being over indulgent on crap to try to feel full or not hungry.
i have tried this week to test my theory & the closest u can get is tesco/morrisons jacket spud (without "fat" fillings) or salad with deep fried scampi.
That is the worse excuse ever.
Healthier food is everywhere around you in the supermarket. It just takes a bit of effort to put it together and make a healthy meal.
Just becasue it's not avaliable in a packet that you put in the microwave doesn't mean it's not there.
If you are hungry between meals eat fruit or nuts. Take a cool bag and ice pack to keep your food cold like i do.

cosmetic surgery is not available on the nhs. So if you're going to draw parallels you can't use that.

Kathy - Children should be under the control of their parents. So the advertising impact should be a) negligable (they won't be watching tv all the time) and b) irrelevant, they eat what they are given.

Regulating the advertising industry is certainly a sensible part of tackling the problem though. Isn't it already illegal to advertise certain foods at certain times (because children tend to watch tv at that time)?

Injuries from sport aren't unanticipated, they are just unwanted. Anyone playing football knows that there is a risk of injury (higher than the risk from doing judo actually).
Life isn't risk free, and since we've decided to provide healthcare free at the point of service that means to everyone.

How would you implement a tax on unhealthy food though, is it just 'fast' food, is it all take aways, is any food with a certain % fat, or salt, or calories, or sugar???? And once it's implemented how do you very that the takeaway is actually applying it and paying it on???

Originally posted by Dicko
So, either: exercise more, eat less, or accept your gonna be a bit lardy!
Exactly. I am currently doing something about my lardy physique, but until now I haven't really cared very much. I just wish everyone else was willing to accept overweight people. It seems to be the last 'acceptable' form of discrimination/bullying.

Oh, and I have to say the BMI is complete and total rubbish. It takes no account whatsoever of someone's width. Many short people are stocky and have just as much muscle and bone in their bodies as taller people.

Willman - I have an appetite like a horse, and I don't find salad particularly appetising either, so here's what I take to work with me...

Brown bread sandwich with healthy filling
Fruit
Couscous salad (makes leaves and stuff tastier if you sprinkle couscous on them, and more filling!)
Nuts and seeds to snack on

Originally posted by DaisyBoo
That is the worse excuse ever.
Healthier food is everywhere around you in the supermarket. It just takes a bit of effort to put it together and make a healthy meal.
Just becasue it's not avaliable in a packet that you put in the microwave doesn't mean it's not there.
If you are hungry between meals eat fruit or nuts. Take a cool bag and ice pack to keep your food cold like i do.

put it together in your hotel room with no utensils. That'll be fun. Or in your car maybe whilst you travel, I can just see the salad leaves going everywhere whilst your car heads down the embankment of the M1.

Originally posted by Cyclone
cosmetic surgery is not available on the nhs. So if you're going to draw parallels you can't use that.



i tend to agree with most of cyclones balanced comments, however this statement is untrue. nose jobs, sex changes, boob jobs can be acquired via the nhs.

Originally posted by JBee
Willman - I have an appetite like a horse, and I don't find salad particularly appetising either, so here's what I take to work with me...

Brown bread sandwich with healthy filling
Fruit
Couscous salad (makes leaves and stuff tastier if you sprinkle couscous on them, and more filling!)
Nuts and seeds to snack on

thanx for that jbee, u dont fancy getting married do u ?(lol)

Originally posted by willman
i tend to agree with most of cyclones balanced comments, however this statement is untrue. nose jobs, sex changes, boob jobs can be acquired via the nhs.

not just because you feel like it though. Don't you have to show real psychological problems being caused, ie serious lack of self esteem.
You can't just decide one day that you want bigger boobs, otherwise why would there be a thriving private market for cosmetic surgery.

Originally posted by willman
i tend to agree with most of cyclones balanced comments, however this statement is untrue. nose jobs, sex changes, boob jobs can be acquired via the nhs.
Indeed. All people have to do is whinge convincingly enough about how depressed it's making them that they don't like their body and they'll get free treatment. Imo you should only be able to get such treatment on the NHS if you're disfigured (horrible burns etc) or being caused a lot of pain (huge breasts giving you back pain).

Originally posted by Cyclone
not just because you feel like it though. Don't you have to show real psychological problems being caused, ie serious lack of self esteem.
You can't just decide one day that you want bigger boobs, otherwise why would there be a thriving private market for cosmetic surgery.
I suppose I said mainly the same thing as you, but in a far more cynical way... :)

u do have to show "suffering" not how big your wallet is, but it is still available free of charge to fat or non fat people.
and i'm definitely more cynical than richd 'cos i think less than 1% of them really need it.

Originally posted by willman
thanx for that jbee, u dont fancy getting married do u ?(lol)

No. But that's the first marriage proposal I've had on the forum so thank-you very much Willman!

Originally posted by willman
and i'm definitely more cynical than richd 'cos i think less than 1% of them really need it.
Hey cool, let's have a cynicism competition :D

But yes, you win on that count. I'd have said 2%.

i've just decided to remove my donor card , just in case a skinny person with an attitude to fatties may want life saving treatment.

Originally posted by willman
i've just decided to remove my donor card , just in case a skinny person with an attitude to fatties may want life saving treatment.
You win. :D

Originally posted by Cyclone
cosmetic surgery is not available on the nhs. So if you're going to draw parallels you can't use that.

Kathy - Children should be under the control of their parents. So the advertising impact should be a) negligable (they won't be watching tv all the time) and b) irrelevant, they eat what they are given.

Regulating the advertising industry is certainly a sensible part of tackling the problem though. Isn't it already illegal to advertise certain foods at certain times (because children tend to watch tv at that time)?


Cyclone - you live in some kind of weird dream world. Thats all I can conclude. A kind of world when children become 'parents' they suddenly gain a knowledge of all things nutritional.

No, when children watch TV its prime food/loan advertising time! Try watching it sometime!

Originally posted by willman
i've just decided to remove my donor card , just in case a skinny person with an attitude to fatties may want life saving treatment.
I nominate this for the post of the year! :clap:

poetry Willman, sheer poetry mate :thumbsup:

increase public and school playing fields.

Make the streets safe for kids to play on.

mandatory 1/2 day sports in schools.

encourage kids to enjoy playing sports at an early age. Non of this non contact and dance b*llocks.

1. Plastic surgery is available on the NHS without having to prove adverse psychological impact. Someone I know went to her GP, asked for a breast reduction. GP asked her height and bust size, then said yes straight away. Friend did not have to say she had backpain or anything like that.

2. Measurement of 'obesity' is variable. Use of the BMI index (normally used in the NHS) does not take into account muscle (which is heavier than fat).

3. At what stage does someone become fat/obese/morbidly obese? There are some scales of calculation but non are perfect.

4. At what stage does 'being fat' begin to impair health?

5. Some people are very active, fit and eat healthily but are still overweight - what do you do for/about these people.

6. Talking about 'fat people' as if they are a species from another planet only serves to distance oneself from it. It's easy to have a go at a 'minority group' isn't it?

7. People who are classed as 'morbidly obese' already find it difficult to access the necessary NHS services, either through lack of access to hospitals, surgeons unwilling to operate etc. The larger a person is, the more anaesthetic they will need, administering high levels of anaesthetic is risky in all cases.

8. What about people who, all their lives have been fit and healthy (maybe sports people) who eat healthily (salads, fruit etc) but because of mobility problems cannot exercise as much as they used to and pile on the weight? You will notice a lot of ex-sports people very quickly pile the weight on, as the muscle mass is no longer used to the extent it previously was, the muscle turns to fat....

9. Since when did this 'society' become so individualist? We all pay into an NHS via taxes and NI. This is done so that we all can access a free NHS service at the point of contact. It would be wrong to exclude any minority group from this system, it would break down the whole structure of the NHS.

10. The NHS needs more money now than ever, why? It is a victim of it's own success. We carry out more life saving operations than ever before. We treat people with life threatening illnesses that in the not too distant past would have died. Intensive care bed/nursing is extremely expensive, but is essential because of the advances in treatment and operations now available. The only thing we should be concerning ourselves with is: how can we ensure the NHS has more money? We, as a society, should be happy to pay towards the NHS whether we think we will need to access it's services or not. Isolating one group or another only serves to be devisive and illustrates a selfishness of attitude which may lead to the downfall of the NHS in future. Then what? The American system? I truly hope not.

Originally posted by robbie
mandatory 1/2 day sports in schools.

encourage kids to enjoy playing sports at an early age. Non of this non contact and dance b*llocks.
No no no no NO!!! :mad:

As it is, some of us suffered more than enough humiliation, ridicule and bullying as a result of being useless at sports. It would be unforgivable for them to force more of that upon us.

The only way increasing the sports dosage at school would be acceptable is if they also came down hard on anyone bullying the lesser athletes, and stopped this stupid blind ignorance of that fact that not everyone has the same physical potential, and that not everyone 'can do better'.

And if teachers learned to spot mobility-impairing disorders like Dyspraxia - most people have never even heard of it let alone know how to identify it in children.

Dyspraxia is pretty rare.

I've seen one person with dyspraxia, they were actually doing jiu jitus, it just meant that it took them a bit longer to pick things up. No hastle so long as people are aware of it, but we didn't have to diagnose it, they told us what the problem was.

Kathy - I didn't suggest that people who become parents automatically gain any knowledge. What I said was that the advertising to children should be irrelevent, because knowledgable or not the parents control what the children eat, or should do.
Maybe you disagree and think that parents should do whatever their children demand?

Havent read back through last few pages (apologies) but

More school sports does seem to me like a good idea. I'd certainly have been a lot less lardy in my youth if we'd have had more than an hour a week sports.

BUT

The idea of freezing your a** off paying footy in the middle of winter needs to go. Lass I used to work with said that her little brother was doing breakdancing and karate in his PE lessons. How good is that?

So more PE gets a Saifa :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Cyclone
Dyspraxia is pretty rare.

I've seen one person with dyspraxia, they were actually doing jiu jitus, it just meant that it took them a bit longer to pick things up. No hastle so long as people are aware of it, but we didn't have to diagnose it, they told us what the problem was.
The person you saw with dyspraxia had it very mildly then.

And as for them 'telling you what the problem is', that only works among adults. Children who don't know WHY they can't run well, or catch a ball, or throw accurately, suffer horrendous bullying as a result. And my girlfriend, who is dyspraxic and didn't find out until she was 20, went all the way through school being bullied for it (among other things) and the teachers never noticed. Instead they made it worse by insisting she just wasn't trying hard enough, making her look and feel like a failure in front of her classmates.

Originally posted by Saifa
Havent read back through last few pages (apologies) but

More school sports does seem to me like a good idea. I'd certainly have been a lot less lardy in my youth if we'd have had more than an hour a week sports.

BUT

The idea of freezing your a** off paying footy in the middle of winter needs to go. Lass I used to work with said that her little brother was doing breakdancing and karate in his PE lessons. How good is that?

So more PE gets a Saifa :thumbsup:

the problem with that is finding staff with the ability to teach it.
Pretty much anyone can get a game of football going, kids do it on their own anyway with no supervision. But teaching karate or any other martial art requires a qualified instructor, personal liability insurance, instructors liability insurance and ideally the correct outfit.

Good point Cy,

I'd have been a lot more into PE as a youth if I could do the same sort of sports I do now back then, but yeah it isn't necssarily as easy as it sounds

Maybe when they are interviewing PE teachers they should come at em with a baseball bat and see what happens. :D

(Only messin BTW)

For those starting up clubs for kids (ie karate or whatever) these's also child protection issues to consider.

Police checks etc, just to get a clean bill of health, so you can continue to work with kids in any capacity.

All this is on top of personal insurance etc.

I know we have to constantly guard against complacency and that you can't pay too much attention to this sort of thing these days, but it does cast up one or two peculiar anomilies.

For example, if you are hosting, say, a summer soccer tournament for children, and it's a sunny day. The kids may bring along sun-tan cream. But you can't put it on them. They have to put it on each other!

And I know a qualified angling instructor. If he's teaching a child how to fish and he sees the kid leaning over the water to the point of over-balancing, he can't simply grab hold of the kid and pull him back.

He has to let the kid fall into the water and then help him out! Crazy, eh?

I'm not making excuses, but these could be stumbling blocks which prevent genuine people from starting up activity clubs for youngsters.

Originally posted by dishwasher
For example, if you are hosting, say, a summer soccer tournament for children, and it's a sunny day. The kids may bring along sun-tan cream. But you can't put it on them. They have to put it on each other!
Interesting... I'll bet you can still be sued if a child gets sunburnt because one of the other kids didn't do a good enough job of putting the sun cream on him/her, though.

Yep, completely agree IMO its usually a lose-lose situation when "the rules" are involved :rolleyes:

Originally posted by dishwasher
For those starting up clubs for kids (ie karate or whatever) these's also child protection issues to consider.

Police checks etc, just to get a clean bill of health, so you can continue to work with kids in any capacity.

All this is on top of personal insurance etc.

I know we have to constantly guard against complacency and that you can't pay too much attention to this sort of thing these days, but it does cast up one or two peculiar anomilies.

For example, if you are hosting, say, a summer soccer tournament for children, and it's a sunny day. The kids may bring along sun-tan cream. But you can't put it on them. They have to put it on each other!

And I know a qualified angling instructor. If he's teaching a child how to fish and he sees the kid leaning over the water to the point of over-balancing, he can't simply grab hold of the kid and pull him back.

He has to let the kid fall into the water and then help him out! Crazy, eh?

I'm not making excuses, but these could be stumbling blocks which prevent genuine people from starting up activity clubs for youngsters.

there is no legal requirement to have a CRB check to work with children, it's just recommended.
We have a few juniors at our club and they have no problems (and we have no problems) with allowing them to grapple with adults for the groundwork drills.

If it's self inflicted then so is AIDS.

In which case all homosexuals & promiscuous people who do not / will not use barrier protection should also forfeit their rights to free treatment.

Hmmm this one's got me thinking about all the other self-inflicted habits that are going to go on the forfeit list!

:roll: