The average salary for a man is higher than the average salary of a woman - FACT

The vast majority of senior positions in all major organistions are occupied by men - FACT

Girls are higher achieving academically - FACT

Women are the one's who have to take time out off their career to have children - FACT

Sexual equality is a long way off - MY OPINION

Women are becoming more 'masculine' and men are becoming more 'feminine' - POSSIBLY

So what?????

Originally posted by Hels
The average salary for a man is higher than the average salary of a woman - FACT

The vast majority of senior positions in all major organistions are occupied by men - FACT

Girls are higher achieving academically - FACT

Women are the one's who have to take time out off their career to have children - FACT

Sexual equality is a long way off - MY OPINION

Women are becoming more 'masculine' and men are becoming more 'feminine' - POSSIBLY

So what?????

Here here....:clap:

I could not have said it better myself...:hihi:

Originally posted by Hels
The average salary for a man is higher than the average salary of a woman - FACT

The vast majority of senior positions in all major organistions are occupied by men - FACT

Girls are higher achieving academically - FACT

Women are the one's who have to take time out off their career to have children - FACT

Sexual equality is a long way off - MY OPINION

Women are becoming more 'masculine' and men are becoming more 'feminine' - POSSIBLY

So what?????

Average salary across the board!?? So not for the same job!??

I think that was the original statement that men get paid more than women for the SAME job!! - Cr*p!!!

Women do have to take time out because it is women who have the babies!!!!!. I do believe now that men have longer paternity leave. I may be cut down for this next comment but although bringing up a child is the responsibility of both parents I believe in MY OWN OPINION that the bond between the mother and child is needed to be developed in the early stages of the child's life, hey thats mother nature for you!!!!

And as other comments are said i like a women to be ladylike (that does not mean less equal before someone has a go!) not like you see ****** up girls on west street on a Fri and Sat night (and no that does not account for all women). What is wrong with men being masculine and women being feminine?????

it's common knowledge that women doing the same job still get paid less than men on average.
In fact isn't the NHS in the middle of having to give payrises and compensation to hundreds of thousands of female staff because they were being paid less than men who did an equivalently skilled and equivalently responsible (although in this case admittedly different) job....

Originally posted by Cyclone
it's common knowledge that women doing the same job still get paid less than men on average.


In some industries, I don't think thats the case in the IT world, all of the women I have worked with have earned the same as me for doing the same job AFAIK.

Originally posted by Cyclone
it's common knowledge that women doing the same job still get paid less than men on average.
In fact isn't the NHS in the middle of having to give payrises and compensation to hundreds of thousands of female staff because they were being paid less than men who did an equivalently skilled and equivalently responsible (although in this case admittedly different) job....

Common knowledge - please show evidence. I am sick and tired of hearing and seeing this argument. My generation 20's and 30's I do not believe this is the case, in some sections it is the reverse!

funny, your generation is my generation.

It's not in all industries, and it's not in every company. But 1s on google lead me to

this (http://society.guardian.co.uk/careers/story/0,7916,443658,00.html)

Women are still being paid less for doing the same job as men, according to a new survey. Why is Britain the most sexist country in Europe, asks Cristina Odone

Can you find a survey that finds the opposite, or just provide anecdotal evidence (which we all know isn't admissible in forum court).

here's (http://www.eoc.org.uk/cseng/advice/case_study_lloyds_tsb.asp?PrintIt=yes) a case study of Lloyds...

However, the initial review did suggest some anecdotal evidence which enabled the organisation to draw some tentative general conclusions about some of the potential causes of inequalities in pay – for example:

Maternity leave and career breaks appeared (historically) to have hindered women's salary progression

Starting salaries in some cases seemed to be inconsistent between men and women – this was thought to be because men were more likely to negotiate than women. Also, premia for previous experience, were often perpetuated long after any performance differential had been eroded.


Line managers were reluctant to withhold pay rises from long-servers at the very top of their pay scales, for danger of giving the wrong message about their value to the organisation.

Average salary was skewed in favour of women at the lowest grade but thereafter favoured men, with the gap growing towards the higher grades. This was because a large number of women had long service at this grade, and the old pay structure had continued to award pay increases, even though this might not have been merited in terms of performance or contribution – effectively rewarding long service.

There was a more significant pay gap when salaries were compared across all employees within Lloyds TSB. This was mainly because there were far more men than women in more senior roles. The bank had already recognised this and was addressing the issue through a number of equality and diversity initiatives.



if you'd like to see the full google list 109,000 hits it's here. (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=salary+inequality+women+study&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB)

You appear to be missing a key legal point here Cyclone. EU equal opportunities legislation makes to illegal for employers to pay men more than women for doing the same work. This is specifically guaranteed in the EU's 'Equal Pay for Equal Work' Directive. Moreover, there have been test cases in both the European Court of Justice and in the British courts. The important point is that employers must pay men and women equally for the same work, otherwise they open themselves up to compensation claims.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
You appear to be missing a key legal point here Cyclone. EU equal opportunities legislation makes to illegal for employers to pay men more than women for doing the same work. This is specifically guaranteed in the EU's 'Equal Pay for Equal Work' Directive. Moreover, there have been test cases in both the European Court of Justice and in the British courts. The important point is that employers must pay men and women equally for the same work, otherwise they open themselves up to compensation claims.

in what way did I miss it? I never said that it was legal for employers to pay women less, just that they do it.

Have a look at the website for the equal opportunities commission if you like, there busy taking action under the equal opportunities laws a lot by the look of things.

I was asked to show some evidence, and i've done so.
The very fact that laws needed to be passed in order to make the behaviour illegal indicates that it has been happening and not on a small scale. You don't pass EU directives because a couple of women once got a smaller pay rise than their male colleagues.

Originally posted by Cyclone
in what way did I miss it? I never said that it was legal for employers to pay women less, just that they do it.

Have a look at the website for the equal opportunities commission if you like, there busy taking action under the equal opportunities laws a lot by the look of things.

I was asked to show some evidence, and i've done so.
The very fact that laws needed to be passed in order to make the behaviour illegal indicates that it has been happening and not on a small scale. You don't pass EU directives because a couple of women once got a smaller pay rise than their male colleagues.

The point you missed was that there is a legal framework in place which imposes penalties on employers who discriminate in this way. This has meant that the vast majority of employers have been forced to bring their pay policies in line with the provisions of the act. Yes, there are no doubt some employers who breach this law, but the important point is that they can be brought to account and forced to change their policies. The EU's equal opportunities legislation has undoubtedly had a very significant impact on the extent of gender discrimination with regard to equal pay for equal work throughout the EU.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
The point you missed was that there is a legal framework in place which imposes penalties on employers who discriminate in this way. This has meant that the vast majority of employers have been forced to bring their pay policies in line with the provisions of the act. Yes, there are no doubt some employers who breach this law, but the important point is that they can be brought to account and forced to change their policies. The EU's equal opportunities legislation has undoubtedly had a very significant impact on the extent of gender discrimination with regard to equal pay for equal work throughout the EU.

I don't doubt that things are changing for the better. But I don't think it's yet reached the level where there is no discrimination.

It's also sometimes very difficult to prove that you are paid less because of your sex, or indeed to actually find out that you are paid less.

In both of the companies i've worked for (Large IT companies) there was very much a culture of not discussing your salary, indeed to the point where it had been said in the first company that disclosing your salary to another member of staff was a disciplinary offense. The only possible reason for this is to stop comparisons which lead to the lower paid members (be that women or otherwise) asking for payrises.
The same culture exists in my current company, although i've found that the way around it is to get drunk in the hotel bar at which point everyone is happy to talk about it. Indeed, this approach led me to ask for and receive a 30% payrise a few years ago!

Originally posted by Cyclone
I don't doubt that things are changing for the better. But I don't think it's yet reached the level where there is no discrimination.

It's also sometimes very difficult to prove that you are paid less because of your sex, or indeed to actually find out that you are paid less.

In both of the companies i've worked for (Large IT companies) there was very much a culture of not discussing your salary, indeed to the point where it had been said in the first company that disclosing your salary to another member of staff was a disciplinary offense. The only possible reason for this is to stop comparisons which lead to the lower paid members (be that women or otherwise) asking for payrises.
The same culture exists in my current company, although i've found that the way around it is to get drunk in the hotel bar at which point everyone is happy to talk about it. Indeed, this approach led me to ask for and receive a 30% payrise a few years ago!

I think the incidence of gender discrimination with regard to pay is probably higher in small organisations, where job descriptions are likely to be less formalised. In these organisations, its probably harder to define 'equal work'. Larger organisations are likely to have human resources or personnel departments whose senior members will be well acquainted with equal opportunities legislation. There is still a 'glass ceiling' with regard to the promotion of women, but there are also some signs that this ceiling is being lowered in many large organisations.

Originally posted by ZEDEX48K
Cr*p!, where is the evidence for this??? I constantly readn this and see no evidence. I know for a fact that my last job, some girls on the graduate scheme were getting paid more than the boys!!!

The reason for the pay gap is because jobs traditionally done by women are generally paid less. Generally a man and a woman doing the same job do tend to get paid the same - but those jobs traditionally dominated by women are valued less by society - even though they may be of the same difficulty as some male dominated jobs that pay more. It is a fact that women get paid less than men on average (I believe the average woman's pay is 80% of the average man's). It is not as simple as saying you know women who get paid more than men and it is this kind of attitude that keeps the pay gap as it is!

I agree with some of these posts but not all.

There are cases where men earn more than women for doing the same job - there are ALSO cases where men earn more than their male colleagues for doing the same job.

In my company, each role has a broad salary band (with a confirmed upper/lower limit). Your starting salary is dependent on your previous experience. This then increases eacy year based on performance. So if a woman meets her targets and a man doesn;t, she has the potential to earn more and vice versa.

Added to this, is that most women who decide to have children, take time off to raise their kids ( and well done to them ), during this time, they don't receive annual pay rises and so the men could earn more as a result.

Sorry for the long winded answer, I was just trying to say that there are many reasons for unequal pay and they may or may not be down to discrimination (gender based or anything else)

There are perfectly acceptable ways round these difficulties for those organisations minded to do so. For example I heard on Radio 4 a while ago a national law firm introduced flexible working arrangements for partners and staff without adversely affecting the balance between profit/fee income or other ratios. Part of the problem seems to reside in the apparent inability of employers to consider more flexible working practices.

Just a few things to add after reading the posts:

Many private sector organisations have no transparency when it comes to pay whatsoever. They do not have fixed pay scales and often salaries are negotiated on an individual basis. So two people doing the same job can be earning very different salaries. In these kind of organisations, in order to avoid this situation backfiring on them, companies often make it a disciplinary offence for employees to discuss their salaries with each other. In organisations such as these therefore it is pretty much impossible for women to find out if they are being paid less then men in the same job – therefore it is impossible to bring an equal pay claim.

The public sector, as Cyclone says, is starting to really address the equal pay problem (mainly to avoid expensive compensation pay outs!). Most public sector organisations are undergoing huge job evaluation exercises which is leading to massive regrading of jobs. It is the best way of showing how jobs that are very different in content are of similar difficulty and therefore should command the same salary. This is an excellent way of bringing pay in what are traditionally female jobs up to similar levels as equally difficult male-dominated jobs. Similarly, anyone who is found to be overpaid for the level of their job will see their salary ring-fenced, either until general pay rises catch up with the current salary, or until that person leaves the job (at which point it is advertised at the lower salary). Public sector are having to do this because they do have transparent pay scales, and hence it has been much easier for women to compare across different jobs and bring equal pay claims.

To say that there is no pay disparity between men and women is a joke – especially when based on very limited personal experience. If you don’t believe it then go to www.payfinder.com Here you can enter details about your own job and salary and it will provide you with a breakdown of how it compares against the average overall, and the average of men in that job and women in that job. In pretty much all cases you will find that the average for a woman is significantly lower than it is for a man. So for example my job (in HR - which is female dominated), men earn on average £21,769, women earn an average of £18,905 – a difference of 15%

This is REAL evidence, based on lots of REAL people’s salaries – not “in my job some of the women are paid more than men”!! Bury your head in the sand all you like, this issue is real – if you were a woman I am sure you would not be denying there is a difference!!