just wondering if i could LEGALY download a copy of a game I OWN from the net.
say for example, my original wont load in my xbox, and didnt back it up.
could I be done for piracy?

just a question thats been bothering me for a while.

Now that's a good one.

I am not a lawyer, but I would say that the answer is proably No, strictly speaking.

The reasoning behind this is as follows.

A copy on the Internet has been put their by soemone breaching copyright. Therefore you are downloading a counterfeit copy of the game.

I would say that if the original won't load then the publisher of the game might be expected to provide a replacement?

Joe

If you are intending to download it off the net WITHOUT paying anything for it, either via a file sharing network or elsewhere then I doubt that it would be legal irrespective of the fact that you have already purchased said item.

I have faced this dilemma with my large collection of vinyl LP's and 45's. Do I go out and buy the album/single AGAIN on CD or just grab it for free off the net? Part of me says yes, I've paid for it so the artist got their money and the other says no, purely because it could lead to prosecution for downloading illegally.

I'll let you make up your own minds which route I take!

well, thats more or less what i was thinking in regards to the law, but i dont think the company who supplied the game is liable.

this question isnt neccisaryly just a game, the same argument could be raised about cd's, dvd's ect
just curious on what the law says in this situation

dont get me wrong, im not actually downloading a game. its just a question that popped up in my head a while back.

Originally posted by simonj
I have faced this dilemma with my large collection of vinyl LP's and 45's. Do I go out and buy the album/single AGAIN on CD or just grab it for free off the net? Part of me says yes, I've paid for it so the artist got their money and the other says no, purely because it could lead to prosection for downloading illegally.

My thoughts exactly. I've got a lot of tunes on tapes that I still would like to listen to but haven't got a tape player in as many places as a CD player. I also use the laptop to listen to CD's on and I have no cassette player in the car.

I've come to the conclusion that morally, downloading things from the net is OK as long as you own a copy of the original, but it's still technically illegal.

you own a license to 1 copy of that game.
You can aquire it in whatever means you like (although you should note that the circumvention of some copy protection is also now illegal, but that's okay, someone else would be doing that, not you).

So yes, if you own the game or the cd then downloading it is not breaking any law. You are not infringing copyright as you own a license to it already.
Whether someone else is infringing copyright isn't really important, although they probably are, but then, who cares.

Originally posted by yosser_huges
dont get me wrong, im not actually downloading a game...

too late.. the feds are already on to you.. burn your computer and take refuge in the nearest cave..

Oh oh, ill have to look up uncle Osama, see if he'll put me up for a while :hihi:

I'm pretty sure it is legal. If you have a look on a lot of emulation sites (running old software on PC's e.g. sega mega drive games), they all state that it is legal to download the ROMS as long as you have a copy of the original game.
I'd say from the legal point of view thats exactly what you would be doing.

Karl

There's one minor technicality - if you download a copy of the game, it's presumably been cracked and had the copy-protection removed. By running without this, you are violating the DMCA (in the states, whatever equivalent we have over here) which says you aren't allowed to get around their protection - or is that purely down to the person who removed it??

It must be legal with MS products - as they are very very fond of saying you don't buy the product, you buy the licence. So ANY copy of the program you own the licence to must surely be legal.

I love it when people get copyright law wrong... it's a common misconception that you are legally allowed to backup a copy of a movie or game you have puchased incase something happens to the one you bought.

This isn't the case.

It's true that several years ago, you were allowed to backup your own movies and games for your own use, however this law was scrapped a long tim ago due to copyright theft.

If you contact FACT (Federation Against Copyright Theft), they will inform you of the same thing I have said.
I think in the states you are still allowed to do this, however in the UK this no longer applies.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I love it when people get copyright law wrong... it's a common misconception that you are legally allowed to backup a copy of a movie or game you have puchased incase something happens to the one you bought.

This isn't the case.

It's true that several years ago, you were allowed to backup your own movies and games for your own use, however this law was scrapped a long tim ago due to copyright theft.

If you contact FACT (Federation Against Copyright Theft), they will inform you of the same thing I have said.
I think in the states you are still allowed to do this, however in the UK this no longer applies.

I don't think anyone said that you could legally make a backup (although there has been no prosecution and thus no clarification of that area of law in the UK, fact do not (fortunately) make or enforce the law, they'd just like you to think that do.

So - to summarise, if you own a license to something and you damage the original, you are entitled to replace that. If it happens to be from a ripped cd that doesn't matter, so long as you own one license and end up with one copy of the product.

Fortunately we aren't in the states and don't have to comply with the DMCA, there is a european version, but it's not quite so strict and has yet to be applied in english law other than regarding chips to hack games consoles (and that ruling was dubious).

I never said FACT make any laws, they do actually play a part in enforcing them tho.

What i said was you can contact FACT and clarify what I said.
Downloading a backup (which is what would be happening) of something you already own is not legal since it's in breach of copyright law in the UK... this is a fact.

By all means, call FACT, call a solicitor, call trading standards or any UK governing body that can give you the legal clarification.
By all means, do what you will and believe what you like... the fact it is you will be breaking copyright law.

If you purchase a movie or a game you own a licence for THAT particular copy. If that copy is damaged, either by yourself, someone else, or malfunctions on it's own you dont have the legal right in the UK to download another copy... that is a seperate and new licence which would be required.

Believe it or not, but it's the law.

do you have a link to any supporting legislation?
I disagree, a license cannot be for a specific copy. I agree that you cannot legally create a backup, but if the original is already destroyed then you are not creating a 2nd copy, you will still ultimately have 1 copy of the material you own a license too, and thus it isn't in breach of copyright.

Originally posted by Cyclone
do you have a link to any supporting legislation?
I disagree, a license cannot be for a specific copy. I agree that you cannot legally create a backup, but if the original is already destroyed then you are not creating a 2nd copy, you will still ultimately have 1 copy of the material you own a license too, and thus it isn't in breach of copyright.
No unfortunately I do not... you are free to not agree with me though.

However if you want proof (as I once did and contacted FACT for clarification) I suggest giving FACT a call or email and they will clarify the matter for you.

Failing that, speak to a solicitor.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
No unfortunately I do not... you are free to not agree with me though.

However if you want proof (as I once did and contacted FACT for clarification) I suggest giving FACT a call or email and they will clarify the matter for you.

Failing that, speak to a solicitor.

FACT have a vested interest, they are certainly not an impartial party, I wouldn't trust them to give me the time of day, never mind copyright advice.

:roll:

Sorry oh holier than thou.
Contact a solicitor then! You'll find I expect that they'll tell you the same.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
:roll:

Sorry oh holier than thou.
Contact a solicitor then! You'll find I expect that they'll tell you the same.

no need to get childish. I will actually check with a solicitor, although i don't happen to know one who specialises in copyright, so they'll probably not have much of an idea.

Originally posted by Cyclone
no need to get childish. I will actually check with a solicitor, although i don't happen to know one who specialises in copyright, so they'll probably not have much of an idea.
Childish? Sorry if you took it that way.
It seemed rather small minded and childish to me the way you dismiss an organisation's clarification of copyright infringement just because it doesn't fit in with your own.

Sometime Cyclone, you need to accept, you're not always right! :roll:

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I love it when people get copyright law wrong... it's a common misconception that you are legally allowed to backup a copy of a movie or game you have puchased incase something happens to the one you bought.

This isn't the case. :clap: :clap:

I'd given up all hope of someone on here actually understanding the points of copyright law.

Now I know there's at least 3 people that understand copyright law (as far as is possible).

sccsux/dabouncer,
A couple of questions:

Whats the position on emulation as far as copyright law goes?

Is it illegal to play an mp3 that is copied from your own cd? An mp3 could be classed as a "backup" copy of a track, which is illegal. Or is music classed differently?

Just interested as both are pretty common uses that apparently infringe copyright yet are in very widespread use. Is almost every person out there with an mp3 player breaking the law?

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Childish? Sorry if you took it that way.
It seemed rather small minded and childish to me the way you dismiss an organisation's clarification of copyright infringement just because it doesn't fit in with your own.

Sometime Cyclone, you need to accept, you're not always right! :roll:

and I would, if you could provide any proof, the same way i'd expect you to accept it if i could provide any proof.
At the moment it's just our opinions.
I dismiss that organisations clarification because they have a specific axe to grind and are highly unlikely to provide unbiased advice.
I'm not even sure that you've understood the distinction between making a backup, ie a 2nd copy and downloading a replacement copy for a damaged original.

Originally posted by Cyclone
and I would, if you could provide any proof, the same way i'd expect you to accept it if i could provide any proof.
At the moment it's just our opinions.
I dismiss that organisations clarification because they have a specific axe to grind and are highly unlikely to provide unbiased advice.
I'm not even sure that you've understood the distinction between making a backup, ie a 2nd copy and downloading a replacement copy for a damaged original.
Don't worry, I've totally understood what you meant and yes it still applies (AFIAK).

Like I say I cannot offer proof because (A) I haven't read up fully on the legislation (B) I accept FACT's official standpoint given their position.

It's not for me to prove, since I care not if you believe me or not or believe FACT or not. Like I say, speak to a solicitor if you're desperate to know. I'm happy with the explanation I was given over the phone.

cha00kaw I'm not sure where the law stands on this. Yes you are correct in that everyone with an MP3 which has been backed up from an original CD should be technically in breach of copyright. However I have never checked or needed to clarifythis position and it's a very good question.

I'd hazard a guess that it's a grey area and that technically for use of an MP3 it should have been purchased in that medium in thefirst place. I.e. Buy the MP3 from iTunes, transfer it to your MP3 player and destroy your download.

In reality this wouldn't happen.

Cyclone, I have given a quick look into copyright legislation and it didn't go into great detail of what the licence related to.
It doesn't clarify whether the licence is related to the specific product bought (i.e it's valid for that particular CD or DVD), or if it covers the ability to retrieve another copy without the need of purchasing a second licence via the internet.

However I'm sure a solicitor would be able to clarify this for you.

You think it's illegal to make a backup or download a replacement, but your not sure about ripping your cd and putting it on your mp3 player.

The latter is actually more likely to be illegal as you have 2 fully working copies, and an intention to use them possibly concurrently.

IE someone at home listens to the cd, or indeed the mp3 on the computer. Whilst you listen to the mp3 in the gym.

Surely you can see that that is more of a breach (if indeed the former situation is at all), as you don't own 2 licenses but are using 2...
Of course no one will ever be prosecuted for it, and if they were the record company would loose and 'fair use' would finally be defined by a court in this country.

Originally posted by Cyclone
You think it's illegal to make a backup or download a replacement, but your not sure about ripping your cd and putting it on your mp3 player.

The latter is actually more likely to be illegal as you have 2 fully working copies, and an intention to use them possibly concurrently.

IE someone at home listens to the cd, or indeed the mp3 on the computer. Whilst you listen to the mp3 in the gym.

Surely you can see that that is more of a breach (if indeed the former situation is at all), as you don't own 2 licenses but are using 2...
Of course no one will ever be prosecuted for it, and if they were the record company would loose and 'fair use' would finally be defined by a court in this country.
It's like a waste of breath, time and effort with you cyclone.
You preach on here like you're the fruit of all knowledge while knowing everything about everything.

You hate it and argue to the hilt when someone disagrees with your opinion (which is fine in itself I guess) but yet when an official body is available to offer advice you'd still refute it because it doesn't fit with your opinion and you assume they'd give a biased answer.

You then even have the audacity to argue that I obviously don't understand what you're saying just because again my opinion doesn't fit with yours.

Well allow me for the final time to clarify.
I have been informed via telephone to FACT in the past that downloading a copyright covered movie or game that I have the original to is illegal. They also advised that I own one copyright licence and it is to the particular movie/game I have purchased.

If my game is lost/damaged/stolen I do not have a legal right to download another copy or take a copy from someone elses original because I would need another copyright licence from the owner. OK!

I don't give a monkeys if you believe me or FACT or not, you do what you want to do.

Yes I am not certain when it comes to MP3's because of the way the market is currently fuelled with MP3 players... how are we expected to store/convert our music?

I'd expect it's not allowed legally, but I'm not going to argue the toss in finding out.

There... ok? End of (from me)!

FACT like FAST, BSA and all their client companies etc do not make the law and only feed in to the regulatory and legislative systems. Laws are passed by Government and open to interpretation and application by our learned Judiciary when they determine issues brought before them. This is called case law and unless a criminal offence is involved that is when and how these issues will be decided. Although there have been a few legal actions against individuals it is not usually done because of the high costs involved for little return on investment.

Candidly I think it is most unlikely that these bodies will usually be inclined to prosecute private individuals. It therefore seems to me this should be a matter for your personal conscience.

FACT is not an official body, it's an industry body.

I don't claim to know everything, but given that we are both just expressing opinions mine's as likely to be right as yours.

I have been informed via telephone to FACT in the past that downloading a copyright covered movie or game that I have the original to is illegal. They also advised that I own one copyright licence and it is to the particular movie/game I have purchased.
agreed, I never said anything to the contrary.

If my game is lost/damaged/stolen I do not have a legal right to download another copy or take a copy from someone elses original because I would need another copyright licence from the owner. OK!

FACT have deliberately mislead you in order to generate more revenue for their members. IMO.

Yes I am not certain when it comes to MP3's because of the way the market is currently fuelled with MP3 players... how are we expected to store/convert our music?
Clearly the same laws apply, there are no special provisions for music.
As it's always been technically illegal to copy a tape, backup a cd or record a video, the same applies to music whatever format you convert it into.
I think we're agreeing on that anyway, so we wouldn't be arguing. I was just surprised that you were unsure, can't you infer from the answers FACT gave you regarding other copyright material?

Unfortunately I can't find anything with google to prove either of us write or wrong regarding replacing a damaged copy.

Originally posted by cha00kaw
Is almost every person out there with an mp3 player breaking the law?

Unless actually purchased in that format, than "technically" yes.

Though some licence agreements do allow back-ups to be made. All depends on the distributor who owns the licence;).

Originally posted by DaBouncer


cha00kaw I'm not sure where the law stands on this. Yes you are correct in that everyone with an MP3 which has been backed up from an original CD should be technically in breach of copyright. However I have never checked or needed to clarifythis position and it's a very good question.

I'd hazard a guess that it's a grey area and that technically for use of an MP3 it should have been purchased in that medium in thefirst place. I.e. Buy the MP3 from iTunes, transfer it to your MP3 player and destroy your download.

I

If you purchase a download from iTunes it comes with a licence for 5 different computers/media players, so you wouldn't have to destroy it there. They seem quite clear about it; you can play it on however many players you have a licence for, but you can't just play it on anything - that would be an infringement of copyright. That's the whole point of DRM (Digital Rights Management).

BTW, I'm not trying to argue with you here, just pointing out what I know about iTunes and mp3 downloads :)

Originally posted by mattyh
If you purchase a download from iTunes it comes with a licence for 5 different computers/media players, so you wouldn't have to destroy it there. They seem quite clear about it; you can play it on however many players you have a licence for, but you can't just play it on anything - that would be an infringement of copyright. That's the whole point of DRM (Digital Rights Management).

BTW, I'm not trying to argue with you here, just pointing out what I know about iTunes and mp3 downloads :)
No that's great, I'm glad you've cleared that point up for me.
It's something I wasn't sure about and have never looked into nor questioned, so I appreciate your input.

no worries mate, I only discovered it the other day!